This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, delivering on climate change, our collective challenge. I am Hannah Walker, and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
My guest today is Alison Anderson. Alison is a professor at the Society, the School of Society and Culture, Faculty of Arts, Humanities and Business at the University of Plymouth. Alison has done a huge amount of research and focusing on risk communication, environmental issues and health. Alison is the author of Media, Culture and Environment and Media, Environment and the Network Society. And Alison, as I say, is Professor.
at University of Plymouth. She's a founding member of the International Environmental Communication Association and former editor -in -chief of the Rutledge Journal Environmental Communication. Currently an editorial board member of Environmental Communication on the International Advisory Board of Environmental Media. At Plymouth, she is the research lead for the Environment, Culture and
Society Research Group. At master's level, she teaches a module on media, culture and the environment on the MA Environmental Humanities programme. Welcome to Alison today. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. I'm really pleased to be here and looking forward to this conversation. Let's start by hearing a little bit about your career. You're a published author and an expert in environmental communication. Tell us about your work at Plymouth. your students there too.
Thank you. Well, very pleased to be taking part in this podcast. I mean, my career goes back really to the 1980s, actually, when I first started studying the topic of how environmental issues are covered in the media and how we can improve communication around environmental issues. And actually, it was a really interesting time in the 1980s because it was around the time that Mrs. Thatcher made her famous green speech. And suddenly the media started getting interested
in covering environmental issues. And it just so happened at that point I was beginning my PhD. And so I had the opportunity to interview journalists and a whole range of other people, media specialists in NGOs who wanted to ensure that the issues were gaining sufficient coverage. At that point, there were very few people, very few academics who were researching these issues. And as I said, it was fortuitous that I happened
to be doing it at that time. And then by the time you got to the early 1990s, suddenly the environment wasn't at the top of the agenda. And we had the economic recession in the early 90s. We also had the war in the Gulf and it kind of just dropped off the agenda. And what I found throughout my career in looking at these issues is that, you know, at certain points, it's very difficult to keep momentum. And there have been
various. peaks and troughs in coverage of the environment and also in public attention to environmental issues as other more pressing issues occur. I mean, even if you look at COP 23 in Glasgow in 2021, in November, around that time, Ipsos Mori did a poll which found that The environment was a top issue that people were saying they were concerned about. And yet by January, it's fallen dramatically. And coronavirus and the economy were the key issues that the public were saying
they were concerned about. So, you know, as I say, throughout my career, I've found it, you know. In one way, fascinating, but also very concerning, you know, because we need to keep environmental issues and we need to keep net zero high on the agenda. And it's a real challenge to do that. Thank you. That's very interesting in terms of the 1980s because I also remember I was working in newspapers in the 1980s and I launched a green page because I thought that
was where the conversation was at. And the green page did last for quite some time until I was told by my editor at the time that there wasn't such interest in green matters and sustainability. So really interesting to hear that perspective. So here we are today. We're looking at massive challenges. as we face climate change. We're looking at inequality, pandemics, resource pressures. In fact, we see it on our news every day. It's
the very threat to humanity. So, Alison, in your view, is there a joined approach now for businesses, governments and us? That's you and me, all of us. Talk about a joined up approach. Is that possible? Well, I certainly think, you know,
we need a joined up. approach to this and currently we haven't got a joined up approach and I think in the past there have been huge problems caused by inconsistent messaging and lack of coordination you know between government departments different policy areas not all pulling in the same direction problem with the lack of clear mission and a lack of a clear public engagement strategy and I think those things are absolutely vital if we are to you know really sort of make progress
because at the moment you know we are falling behind other European countries we're just simply not doing enough despite the measures that were announced. you know, in the budget, which are obviously very welcome. But, you know, we still need to really ramp things up and do much more if we're to actually meet our net zero targets. And I think, you know, there's obviously a role for businesses to play a key part in this, but they need much more direction from the government.
And, you know, in case and incentives as well, because, you know, in many cases, they're kind of having to make decisions that kind of go against their financial interests in the short term. But obviously in the long term, you know, that won't be the case. And the public also are absolutely vital as well to bring along. But, you know, with the public, we know that there's a huge amount of concern about climate change and that goes across all demographics. It's not just young
people, it's older people as well. But information alone is not sufficient to actually bring about the kind of scale of change that we actually need. And so, you know, and also, I think. Looking at, you know, who is actually making the change towards net zero. Women in particular, I think, are and more highly educated people. are more likely to say that they will play a part in net zero and are making changes. So, for example, there's some evidence that EV uptake is higher
amongst women. Women are more likely to switch to a plant -based or vegetarian diet. And I think part of the problem is you know, notions of masculinity, which perhaps, you know, are being challenged by, you know, some of the behaviour changes that we need to occur in order to, you know, move things forward. Thank you. But we're actually looking at large lifestyle changes, aren't we?
Because when we start to talk about the public's appetite for those kind of changes, that's very, you know, it's fascinating to hear about women. And in fact, we're hoping to do a special podcast on exactly focusing on women and the role that women have to play. But in terms of today and changing our lifestyles, we've talked about governments, we've talked about business. And as we've said, climate change is on our news every single day. How do you really make sure that people are prepared
to change? How much are we prepared to change and eat less, consume less dairy, eat less meat, travel less? I mean, we seem to be still flying all over the world at a whim. And I don't know what the demographics of that are. But I would say, and I asked you this question when we were talking about preparing this podcast, you know, are we too rich? I mean, who is making the changes
and how do we get there? Well, at the moment, you know, it's easier for middle class people, I think, to adopt some of the changes that we need to adopt to move forward. You know, so it tends to be middle class people, you know, who can afford to buy an electric vehicle. more likely to have a driveway or, you know, somewhere to leave their car where they can charge their car. And, you know, there is a danger of, you know,
polarisation occurring. And obviously that is being stirred up by some lobby groups who, you know, see their interests being threatened by move to net zero. So I think it's very difficult, really, to see how this kind of move could really kind of broaden out a bit more without more incentives being offered to those people who, you know. have the least resources and are most disadvantaged. And clearly, you know, they shouldn't be overburdened.
They should actually, you know, be given more incentives to actually make changes to, for example, their heating at home or whatever it is, or changing their car. So when we think about some of the changes that we've already been encouraged to do over the years, and some of it obviously is due to legislation, whether it's seatbelt wearing, obviously, or eating five a day. For example, that's an encouraged, it's not law, but it's encouraged. You know, everyone knows that's probably
a good thing to be doing. Recycling, people are being encouraged to recycle. Not sure if we're doing it properly. But is it a mix then between perhaps legislation or public health messages? How are we going to really encourage that? make it happen? Well, I don't think we can rely on the public alone, you know, voluntarily adopting these measures. I think it was Lancaster University recently found that 84 % of the public said that they would be prepared to agree to making substantial
changes. in order to address, you know, climate change. But actually, when it comes down to supporting particular measures, that's often a different matter. So I think, you know, you certainly need a combination of carrots and sticks. And, you know, we need to... bring about more regulation, more taxation. So, you know, interesting if you look at other countries, Denmark, for example,
have introduced a tax on red meat. You know, there are various ways that you can do it in terms of aviation, you know, a frequent flyer, taxation or levy, I should say. And all those kinds of measures, I think, you know, can be effective. They certainly won't be popular. But, you know, if we're going to make any real progress, those kind of things are absolutely needed. We certainly can't rely on, you know, the public to make small changes here and there without
either being incentivised or. certain regulations being introduced, you know, to force people to make particular changes. Because we recently saw the dreadful flooding instances in Valencia and we have got climate change on our, as I say, we've got it on our news every day. Is that enough, do you think? I mean, are we getting the message, Alison? Well, I don't think we are getting the message, no. You know, it almost seems as though
we are sleepwalking into disaster in a way. You know, you see these images on the screen and, you know, for a moment they seem shocking, but then people, I think, quickly move on to the
next thing and it's forgotten. You know, I mean, there is a danger of... people becoming a bit kind of desensitized to it as well and what research indicates is that unless you are personally impacted by climate change for example if you have a terrible flood in your village or your town wherever you live or wherever you know often you still see it as this thing that's really affecting other people in other countries and is not really having any significant impact on your own life okay
and i think it's you know you can bombard people with as many facts and figures as you like but that's not necessarily going to change you know it's actually connecting emotionally with people that is absolutely key and also i think as well emphasizing the co -benefits of taking action you know there are enormous co -benefits um in terms of health and well -being um you know talking about things like changing your diet um you know even not necessarily moving to a plant -based
diet but you know um eating less meat for example um walking rather than taking the car all the time It's interesting what you're saying about facts and figures. Facts and figures, we're always collating as much as we can versus that feeling. the way people feel and that emotion and how you connect to people. So let's turn this around before we get too gloomy. And let's talk about your students, because I always think there is hope in those students, you know, and hope for
the future. Tell me about how your students think, because you're there every day at Plymouth and you're meeting these people. How are they engaged in this debate? And what are you telling them? Well, yes, students, I think, are generally highly engaged in the debate and very, very concerned about the climate crisis. And clearly, you know, they are the generation that are going to be
the most impacted. I've been recently doing some research actually with secondary school children looking at their awareness of climate change. their experiences of climate education at school. And it's been quite surprising in a way just how engaged they are about climate change. And yet what they're saying is that they feel really
disempowered. change education that they receive is mainly kind of siloed in gcse geography and science but they're not really hearing anything much about climate change in in other lessons and of course geography is optional anyway so a lot of children aren't aren't actually hearing about anything to do with climate change other than in science and what they also told us was that it was concentrating on causes and impacts but not covering solutions which is very concerning
um because you know we know from a whole series of different studies that you know there's a lot of anxiety amongst young people about um you know climate change and unless they're actually, you know, given messages of hope at school and shown examples of what actually is working. And, you know, we are making, you know, despite needing
to go further, we are making progress. And, you know, there's so many examples, you know, really inspiring examples that, you know, young people could be taught about at school and yet they're
not. And, you know, also, I think, The more that they're sort of engaged with examples at school relating to their school building, you know, a separate example, if their school building is being retrofitted, if they're having solar panels installed or if they're having an air source heat pump or ground source heat pump, there are enormous opportunities there for them to... you know, get involved and, you know, in
a whole range of different lessons. So, for example, in maths they could be calculating, you know, the difference in terms of, you know, the energy that's being used and that kind of thing. So, the research that I've been doing is in conjunction with the British Science Association. And we launched our report in 2023 at the House of Lords and have subsequently gone on to make a number of recommendations about the way in which climate
education in school needs to change. And following on from that, I'm now doing some work locally. with a museum in Plymouth called The Box, and looking at how their project, which is based very much on a sort of local example of the National Marine Park here in Plymouth, can be used to inspire young people to consider different kind of green careers and role models. They're doing kind of hands on activities and workshops in the museum based around different what they call
sort of climate citizens. So that could be somebody working in a charity to do with the Marine Park or it might be a scientist or whoever it is. And they really get into, you know, taking on that kind of role. trying to find a solution to a problem in a creative way. That's fascinating. I'm fortunate through my work here at Salix to... to go in and visit schools that have undergone
a decarbonisation project. So they've done exactly as you've said, they've installed energy efficiency saving measures, which obviously saves on carbon, but also can save on bills too. So that's heat pumps, insulation, solar, etc. And the children are, you're absolutely right, they are very engaged and very knowledgeable. In my experience, when I have listened to the children, they don't accept
that this cannot happen. Recently, a school child said to me, well, because I was asking the question about what would you, if you were at COP29, what would you do? What would you say if you were at that table? And they said, well, we can't afford not to change. We can't afford not to do this. And these are from primary school children, actually. And I know you've been working, obviously, with secondary school children. So there is a
lot of passion. And I think it's at our, peril if we ignore those voices so that's the British Science Association fascinating work going on there thank you very much Alison for sharing that now I'm not to want to catch you out in any way but I have to move on to you personally I know that you've worked at Monash University over in Australia which is quite a few air miles over there but you personally have you made any significant Well, yes, in terms of diet. And
I've been vegetarian for a long time. I actually, when I met my husband in the 1980s, he was actually a vegan at the time, which was very, very rare. I remember, you know, people being very perplexed about what to serve him, you know, when he went
to different places. And I was meat eater at the time when we first met so we compromised and went vegetarian and then more recently my husband has changed back to being vegan and I'm I wouldn't say I'm completely vegan but I'm almost vegan so not completely and then in terms of things like you know measures to do with our house. We've installed solar panels. We've got battery modules now. So we store up the energy and then it goes back to the grid, you know,
when there's a surplus of energy. We've got quite a large garden. So we've been fortunate to be able to plant trees, have composting, chickens. We changed our bank to a sustainable bank. And what we try to do is to walk anywhere, you know, that's within sort of five miles range. Obviously, if we're travelling beyond that, then we've got
an electric vehicle, so we use that. But it's very difficult because I think, you know, certainly as an academic, you know, sometimes I haven't actually been to an overseas conference for quite a long time now. But I certainly used to in the past go to lots of conferences. And obviously my role in Monash meant I had to go all the way to Australia. You know, it's very difficult. I feel very sort of guilty increasingly, I think, about that kind of travel. And I still do fly.
I can't, you know, I can't pretend, you know, but. I certainly do try to limit my travel much more than I did in the past. And what I find now with a lot of academic conferences is that you quite often have an option where you don't actually have to go to the location, which is great. And I think particularly, you know, over the COVID pandemic, people realised that actually you didn't really need to always attend all these conferences. So much can be achieved online,
which I think is really good. thing that that happened that's one of the the benefits i think exactly that has been good for our planet and and so many of us you're absolutely right for work we have to travel academics you you you you often have as you as you say you don't have to be there but it's always good face to face obviously in building those relationships and doing that research that you do and many of us now have families in various continents and it's
very hard isn't it to avoid Getting on that plane. So thank you very much. Some huge lifestyle changes that you've made to your life personally. So thank you very much for sharing that. In terms of your career, it's fascinating to hear about your work with the schools. But what is next? You've had a highly successful career to date. You're a published author, but you're obviously hugely ambitious. So can you give us a little bit of a flavour of what next? Well, I've almost
completed editing a new handbook, actually. It's a Routledge Handbook of Climate Crisis Communication, which brings together academics from a whole range of different disciplines, so psychology, sociology, geography, media and communication studies, all looking at... some of the challenges and opportunities involved in communicating the climate crisis. And that should be coming out,
I think, around sort of May next year. So I'm excited to actually see that come together because I've been working on editing it with a co -author at the LSE for... number of years now really so it'll be exciting to see the project completed and I'm going on to be doing more sort of policy related work around climate education and developing the work that I mentioned earlier with the box and what I'm hoping is that we can really sort of scale up climate education so I think as important
as the work that's being done already in schools and I'm suggesting that actually we need to embed climate change right across the curriculum, across different subject areas. I'm also working on the topic of media or digital literacy and critical thinking because I think that's absolutely fundamental and something that isn't really being covered
on the curriculum at the moment. And particularly if you look at climate change, one of the barriers, I think, is the amount of misinformation and deliberate disinformation that's circulating, particularly on social media platforms. And you hear this in all sorts of debates where people
are just not questioning. false information about, you know, whether it's EV cars or whether it's switching to a plant based diet, not actually seeking out reputable sources, but just kind of repeating, you know, what they see on social media. And this is being fuelled by some of the lobby groups whose interests are being challenged by these very changes. And so I think there certainly is a need for... much more emphasis on critical thinking and digital literacy in schools to tackle
this. And, you know, it's not just this problem, but, you know, the whole series of other social issues, you know, which are being affected by this. And especially with the rise of artificial intelligence as well. Thank you. It makes it even more pressing. I wondered when that was going to come into the conversation, artificial intelligence, of course, as well. But there's
so much food for thought there. Really interesting when you're talking about the facts and the figures, which are so key and so important because we've got challenging net zero targets to meet versus the feelings and making people really engaged in this whole debate. I don't like to think we're sleepwalking into a disaster, but that is what
you said. Thank you for bringing all that in, because, of course, you're working very heavily with schools and young people and hopefully integrating more of the net zero climate change into the curriculum. And I would love to go and visit the box in Plymouth, which you've mentioned. I've made a note of that. Thank you very much to Alison. Thank you today, providing such insight as part of our decarbonisation dialogue. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest
challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments. And today, we must work for tomorrow's world. So thank you very much to Alison Anderson. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from
Salix. For more information about our work and to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts