This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe that you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task today is to get all of
us to net zero. My guest today is Jenna Hegarty and Jenna is a highly experienced policy advocate with more than 15 years of experience in the third sector. She is here today to talk to us about her work with the Nature Friendly Farming Network. Jenna has been interested in farming
for quite some time. In fact, her master's thesis written in the early 2000s and spotlighting the ability of agri -environment schemes to tackle biodiversity loss resulted in a lifelong passion to nature -friendly and climate -smart farming, as well as a professional drive to ensure that farmers are robustly supported on their nature -friendly farming journeys. The Nature Friendly Farming Network is a membership organisation led by farmers working alongside other organisations
and public supporters. The network aims to provide a platform or voice for sustainable food and farming in the UK. Before joining the network, Jenna worked at the RSPB, starting out as an Agriculture Policy Officer, progressing to Deputy Director for Advocacy. Prior to the RSPB, Jenna worked for Natural England, covering the new forest. Today, Jenna works to support farmers
towards nature -friendly farming. The organization, as I say, gives a voice to the experiences of farmers who are leading the way, sharing knowledge that empowers those in transition to produce plentiful food. So, welcome to Jenna today. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thank you. So, Jenna, can we start a little bit by talking about your career and where your interest in the environment and farming begins? It's probably not an exaggeration to say I was a bit of an,
well, an accidental environmentalist. I grew up in very urban South Yorkshire, not from a farming background, at least probably not, you know, certainly not this century or the last century. And the countryside was a place that you visited when you went on holiday. And it wasn't really, certainly for my family, it wasn't a place that you actively went and sought out kind of at weekends or anything like that. So
I was a late adopter. It wasn't until my mid -twenties that I would categorize myself as becoming an environmentalist. And it was that kind of quite comedically indirect route when you go to uni and you start studying one thing and then quirks happen and accidents happen and you suddenly discover a whole other world and that then becomes the world that you're interested in. And yeah, I went to uni to initially start studying French, but you couldn't do it on its own. You had to
pick something else. So I picked politics because it meant that I could sleep in longer on a particular day. It's ridiculous, but this is how it happened. And through the politics side of things, I then basically got very interested in European politics. And obviously we were still in the EU then as the UK. and was fascinated by just how much our land in this country is influenced by the policy frameworks around it. And obviously at that point,
they largely derived from Europe. And yeah, as part of that, farming is the biggest land use in this country and indeed in most countries. the impacts that it has, which can be very negative, but also very, very positive. The natural environment just grabbed me and it hasn't really let go since, to be honest. Moving on to climate change, which is, I would argue, the most pressing issue of our time. It's certainly not a distant threat.
We're seeing hotter temperatures and more severe weather extremes and drought, poverty, et cetera. How are farmers in the UK able to make a difference? Because farming is a big contributor to our climate issue, isn't it? I mean, greenhouse agriculture contributes to climate change through the release of various greenhouse gases, whether it's methane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, et cetera. So how are farmers? What part of the farmers have
to make? Farming is the fourth largest industry in terms of its greenhouse gas emissions, and it's projected in the not too distant future to be the second largest, mainly because other industries are decarbonizing much more rapidly. We can't forget that farming as a land -based industry is literally on the front line of climate change. nobody will have missed the horrendous images of fields literally underwater last winter.
And that is, it's climate change, it's climate change happening, more and more extreme weather events, more wet winters, drier, hotter summers, and that all has massive implications for farming and what we can grow and produce in the country. a really unique position to be at the vanguard of solutions to this. And obviously we've got to accept that a significant amount of climate change is essentially locked in, but it's not
hopeless. And farming has an incredibly important role to play both in mitigation, so reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but also adapting to a changing climate. and you know if we don't do that and I think it's really important to
just reiterate how serious this is. I mean the the UK government's own food security reports emphasize that you know that the twin climate and nature crisis is is the biggest long -term medium to long -term threat to food production in the country and and that is replicable across across the globe. So this isn't um you know kind of oh yeah that's a problem but we don't need to worry about it. It's a problem that will that is already impacting our ability to grow food.
I mean, the wet winter last year, well, so the kind of 23, 24 winter, that massively impacted the ability to establish and then harvest crops. So it's not some dim and distant future. You know, climate change is happening now. So we need to respond to that now. And it's about taking essentially nature -based mitigation and adaptation
responses. So it's absolutely about hardwiring our climate response with nature at its core because nature is probably the most important partner to farming that you can get, not least because it can do a lot of stuff that we currently pay for, as in buy in. for free and what business doesn't want to secure more for nothing and boost
its profitability. Okay. So that adaptation that you talk about, can you explain how government policies can play a role in helping our farmers in the UK make those adaptations for climate change? And is it just about financial support? Because in your work at the Nature -Friendly Farming Network, do you see a lot of farmers engaging in that conversation as well? Yeah, definitely. Farming, like any other industry,
is quite a broad church. You have lots and lots of views and opinions within that, but fortunately the consensus is, as the science supports, that climate change and nature loss is here and now and we absolutely need to respond to it. And let's also not forget that the reason why farming is is at the heart or kind of at the root of many of the issues that we're facing is because of misguided policy signals and incentives that have come in recent decades, particularly after
the Second World War. That's when a lot of the problems really started in terms of perverse policy incentives, let's say, that drove a very kind of productivist approach to land management, so get as much off the land as possible, including putting as much into the land to get those high yields out. caused a lot of unintended consequences. So again, farmers like any other industry, they
follow the signals that they are provided. And we have to accept societally that government signals for a long time were not the right ones. And that's hurt farming as much as it's hurt anything else. So I suppose there are two main ways that government policy is really, really important for tackling climate change and adapting to it. Bluntly, you're talking about incentives, so payments for doing good stuff, but the flip side of that is regulation too. Regulation is
really important. It creates a solid foundation for incentives to pay on top of. It's really important just to ensure a do -no -harm approach to land management. Indeed, you can keep nudging that regulatory baseline up. Not many people are like massive funds for kind of, you know, the law telling them to do X, Y and Z, but it's important. It's there for a reason. So having a really solid regulatory foundation is important, but incentive payments are absolutely part of
that. And it's really important to recognise these as payments for services produced by farming. but they're environmental services and the plastic market has not geared up to pay for restoration, not particularly well anyway. So government support is absolutely vital because it's essentially addressing a market failure to reward farmers for the provision of... Is that where your role comes in day to day? You're working on those
issues? Yes. I mean, put simply, my job is all about trying to create the pressure for and demand for more nature -friendly farming across the UK. And policy is absolutely imperative for that. But it's also not just government policy. So private policy by businesses is also really, really important. It's not all about the public purse, taxpayers. kind of painful absolutely needs to be produced. The private sector has as equal if not more more of a responsibility.
And we all have that responsibility though don't we because we are consumers and agriculture is essential for feeding us and we know our population is going to be reaching what nine billion ten billion by 2050. I mean our population is growing so we need to get this right don't we and do you think that all of us are prepared to change our habits and in terms of our diet, because
that's all going to impact when you start. I mean, you can do certain things with government, certain things with policy, but there's everything else too, isn't there? Yeah. And what we eat and what we view as desirable to eat, that's influenced by a huge range of factors. And our diets today are very different than they were 30 years ago, 60 years ago. And we've got very used to having everything that we could possibly
want and need whenever we want it. And that situation has been created by a variety of things, but including the supply chain and big food businesses. boiling it down so it's a real simplicity. We know that it's not good for us. Our current diet, societally, is causing loads of health -related problems. It's also very climate -intensive. It can create all sorts of localized pollution issues as well, if you think about intensive pig and poultry units right next to rivers, for
example. So I don't think it's a question of, you know, is change necessary? It is absolutely necessary, but I do think diets can and often are weaponized as a subject by certain interests, and any suggested change to people's diets is seen as almost like an infringement of personal,
you know, rights, and it's ridiculous. I mean, if we look at the the the climate change uh you know committees advice around dietary shifts or indeed you know kind of not just them it you know it's something in the order of a few sausages left on average per week you know so it's it's not like you know and everybody's got to go vegan and start wearing hair shirts and uh and you can only walk anywhere it's It really isn't. So a lot of us have got the wrong diet, but we've
certainly got this population growth. So we're going to have to create more food. It's just finding a way then of making this environmentally friendly. Because as you say, it's not just you can't just hit us over the head and tell us we've all got the wrong diet. There's a lot of food waste as well. And I was reading some figure from I think the UN about, and it shocked me actually, about a third of all food grown in
the world is wasted. That's a third. and apparently about 13 % between harvest and retail stages and about 17 % in households and in the food service and retail sectors of waste. So there's a lot there's a lot else going on in that whole area. And in terms of technology, we've got it's quite an exciting time. I mean, I go and visit a lot of sites as part of the work that we're doing with public sector decarbonisation scheme and decarbonisation projects. And I see a lot
of new technology that's forever changing. So I think that's probably there's a light there, isn't there as well in the technology that is becoming more prevalent, really, and fast moving.
Yeah, I think Tech's an interesting one and I think, you know, tech can be used for good and tech can be used for bad, you know, and I think in terms of food and farming, it's about making sure that we are working with the tech with a clear kind of destination in mind and that we're clear about the kinds of farming and land management that we want to see because even you've got some brilliant tech and innovation out there which is geared towards really precision application
of farm inputs. So for conventional farming systems that do use, well it doesn't even need to be nitrogen fertiliser, it could be livestock manures, but tech that helps farmers really understand what their soils need at any given point in the
growing cycle and only applying that. That's a really great bit of kit because overall it helps reduce in applications of unnecessary inputs which if they're unnecessary the soil won't take it out but it'll end up in water courses and then it'll create problems further down the line.
We just have to keep an eye on tech because it can be used for illers as well as good and if you're essentially propping up a fundamentally unsustainable system of production, but you're just making it less bad through the use of tech, then it's still fundamentally unsustainable. So it's about the right tech to tackle the problems that we have. Yes. So it's a fast subject, isn't it, when you talk about biodiversity and... soil erosion and then there's the coastal leaks and
coastal water pollution if you like. Can I ask, so day -to -day you're busy influencing in policy, in terms of your own passion for the environment, how has that seeped into your own lifestyle? Have you made lifestyle changes? Are you looking at the way you use our natural resources? I think for me, like most people, things are a bit of a journey and you do things at different points
in your life for different reasons. But I think the one consistent thing, again, going back to me being a late bloomer as an environmentalist, but that connection to the natural environment is... profound and I think just gets deeper as I get older and it's about remembering and keeping that true to my purpose about well why do I do what I do you know whether that's choosing the food that me and my family eat including what we choose to grow at home right through to the
type of job I do and you know it's no accident that I work in a not for -profit industry, that it's about trying to secure positive change at scale that is fair to people, fair to the environment. Like many people who are conscious of how they live and what they do, I try not to fly. I eat
an entirely plant -based diet. kids and my partner don't but when we do buy meat it's good meat it's meat that's you know kind of been reared in a you know in ethical ways that is giving as much back to the environment as it's taking. So yeah I think it's just it's been it's been mindful and it's also just remembering at the end of the day we are not separate from nature we are part of nature and you know we forget
that at our peril. Yes exactly and I mean that's all part of as I say it's ingrained in your whole principles and the values that are important to you and it's something that we all want to do and we know we should probably be doing more. It's making it accessible, isn't it? I mean, in terms of farming, it's certainly challenging times in the UK for the farming industry and indeed across the world. May I ask, Jenna, what next for you? You've been influential in the
policy sector. You're certainly making a difference in the way people lead their lives through that farming network. and you're obviously clearly passionate and you have that mission, you're driven. What next for you? Well, I've been at the Nature -Friendly Farming Network for less than a year, so I hope I'll be around here professionally
for a wee while longer yet. I suppose, you know, as a policy professional, I mean, I've worked in policy for years, but it's definitely become a much more holistic approach over those years. And kind of fairly early on, I didn't realize that having the best, most compelling facts and figures and being right wasn't enough. You have to communicate in a way that essentially kind of remembers our human history as storytellers.
And if we can't package up the very important facts and figures around climate change, around nature loss and the solutions to them, in ways that different audiences will not just accept but will grab and run with then we'll kind of be doomed to just kind of bang our heads against a brick wall and whether you're thinking about farmers as an audience or decision makers in government or you know the general public just realizing where people are and communicating
to them effectively is is probably in a very broad sense where I'm most interested to take my career next because it's about connecting with people and working together to get to a better place. And that's a very good point because that is the challenge, isn't it? The storytelling. We need the facts. We need the statistics. We need the science. We need all of that. We know that our planet is warming. We're facing this warming. We know we are in a climate emergency.
But it's how does it make people feel? And I think that's the danger that there's too much kind of catastrophizing, if you like, if you see it on the news, which we do see on the news every day. And I remember those photographs of the country being flooded, of those areas. And in fact, at the time last winter, I was certainly driving through a lot of that water and got stuck in various areas, couldn't get to where I wanted to be because of roads closed, et cetera. But
it's making people Feel it, isn't it? That's the art, isn't it? It's making it real. And it's not just something you're seeing that happens to other people. Actually, this is something that has an impact on all of us and certainly to future generations. And we want to make it better. So that storytelling is really interesting that you've come back to that. Thank you very much to Jenna. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge of our time.
Today we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. Today we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments. Today, we must work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast channels and please tell us what you think. Please email us at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. But I'd like to say a big thank you to our guest today and that's Jenna Hegarty. Thank you very much for sharing your time and for sharing your story. And let's hope we can talk again as well. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information about our work and to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.