This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. And through that passion, I believe you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task today is to get all
of us to net zero. My guest today is Graham Duxbury, OBE, and Graham is going to talk to us about his work at Groundwork. He has served as Groundwork's Chief Executive since 2014, having held the position of Director of Development and focused on policy and communications for the previous 16 years. During this time, his areas of focus have included the improvement of neglected spaces, helping households out of fuel poverty, education, energy efficiency, the green economy and environmental
regeneration. He has more than 25 years experience of helping public and voluntary sector organisations reach new audiences and deliver strategic communications and development campaigns. Graham was awarded an OBE for services to communities and to the environment in 2020. Graham has also recently joined the UK 100 board, the UK's only cross -party network dedicated to supporting ambitious local government leaders committed to tackling
the climate crisis. Members of the UK 100 network have all pledged to meet their ambitious climate targets ahead of the government's 2050 goal. Graham is quoted as saying, when we think about tackling the climate crisis, we too often default. either to global agreements or individual actions. This overlooks the power and potential of collective action in local areas where councils, communities co -design solutions that promote both sustainability and equity. So thank you very much. I'm delighted
to have Graham and it's a huge privilege. Welcome, Graham. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Graham, can we start by talking a little bit about your career and background? Because you've talked early on about wanting a job with purpose. I think that's something that you have said over a number of times in a few interviews. You wanted a job with purpose and you've moved around a bit. You've done volunteering, you've done communications, you've been a press officer, but you've always
had a great passion for the environment. How did you get to where you are today? That's a very good question, and none of it was planned. So quite a circuitous route brought me to where I am today. I think it probably goes back to the fact that, you know, when you're a teenager or a young person thinking about what you want to do, you start with your own natural aptitudes,
don't you? And I felt I was good with kind of words and pictures and so on, and dallyed with advertising at one point, but fairly quickly realized that spending your life selling people things I don't really want or need was not going to be fulfilling. So then you think about, well, how can I apply those skills and aptitudes to something that is a little bit more meaningful, is a little bit more fulfilling and does have
that purpose? It took me a little while to find my way into the right place and the right sector, but an early spell whilst I was an unemployed graduate, actually volunteering with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers, now known as TCV. was quite instrumental in that. It kind of got me fired up and it made me realize, I think, that you could do something practical about the environment on your own doorstep. I think that was one of the challenges for me early
on thinking about a career step. If you thought about environmental charities at the time in the mid to late 1980s, there was some very big issues going on, you know, from acid rain to ice caps melting and polar bears and so on and
so forth. rainforests but it all felt really distant and it all felt quite difficult to do something about so when I started to realize that you know in this country and in the northern mill town that I was growing up in there were environmental campaigns and activists on my doorstep that was quite a light bulb moment and made me switch on to the idea of you know being able to make a difference not just to the environmental issues that I was passionate about, but also
to the lives of people like me and living in my place. Because if you address those environmental issues, you are also helping people stay well and healthy, and you're also helping people think differently about the place in which they were living. That was a really kind of big motivator. So anyway, through that route, I jumped around a bit, as you said, and did one or two different things, found my way into the voluntary sector.
and found my way to groundwork, which is where I've been ever since, working my way through the ranks and getting to the point of having the privilege of being the chief exec. So we're talking today about the huge challenges we're facing on climate change and groundwork, and I want you to explain exactly what groundwork is and does, but it seems to me it's all about collaboration and the environment and you call
it also dynamic partnerships. Can you explain what groundwork is, please, in simple terms for me and for our listeners? But also, can you explain the joined approach for businesses, governments and local authorities and charities and the communities? I can do my best on all of those. So what groundwork is, is a network of charities. There are actually 15 groundwork organisations in the UK. I run the one that's got UK on the end of its name.
denoting the fact that we do some stuff at a national level on behalf of and in support of the other 14 groundwork organisations who are all based in a different part of the UK. So there's a groundwork London, there's a groundwork Northern Ireland, there's a groundwork Greater Manchester and they're the organisations who are working in and with communities delivering a real spread of practical activities linked to where people live, their homes and their local environment.
the skills and the prospects of people in those places and in particular thinking about how to support people into the green economy. And then there's lots of work about people's behaviors and our own approach, our individual approach to sustainability. So we do lots of stuff around helping people with their energy bills, their water bills, but also thinking about waste and recycling and local food growing and sustainable
travel. So there's a really kind of diverse and rich mix of project activity going on right across that network of 15 organizations and my job in the middle is to try and somehow make sense of it all and talk to other people about what's going on and to build at a national level the partnerships that we need and the funding that we need in order to keep some of that work going. So you talked about partnership and Partnership
really is in our DNA as an organization. So we were formed originally in 1981 out of a melting pot of ideas. So there were some people at that point that were thinking about the future of communities that were impacted by deindustrialization. So the decline of heavy industry and how that was leaving communities kind of with job losses, with a lack of... what you might call social infrastructure, but also surrounded by dereliction and urban decay and blackened landscapes due
to the closure of the coal mine and so on. But that was mixing at the time with the first stirrings of consciousness about things like global warming. So, you know, people in the 70s and early 80s starting to understand what climate change really was and was all about. And so it was that kind
of that mixture of influences. that led to the experiment that groundwork was originally which was about can you put professional skill sets at the disposal of local communities to support them to take action on the things that they can see and feel around them that will make a difference to their quality of life starting with a local environment so began with some very simple kind of practical projects, engaging people in picking up litter or cleaning out canals and rivers and
so on and so forth, but then slowly grew in scale and sophistication to this complex array of local environmental initiatives. But partnership is absolutely central to that because we recognize, yeah, however big we become, we can't solve all of these problems for people. It takes a whole array of interests. to get involved in that. So it really is the modus operandi of our organisation. So it's that pride and commitment to people's communities that is so powerful, isn't it? And
unlocking that. And just going back to that collaboration, because it's something I feel very strongly about as well. I come from a former journalist and I've worked on campaigns all my life for the last 30 years. And I kind of grew to understand that the power really does lie with the community, whether it's identifying an issue. So in my case, it was whether it was saving a local hospital, saved a few of those, believe it or not, police stations, schools, or right through things that
really matter to people. As you say, you've mentioned clearing up people's parks, but it's not just one organization coming in on that. it's having the local MP in on it, it's having the local businesses in on it, it's having the key stakeholders, the head teacher, the doctors, the nurses, having that grand collaboration, which is so powerful, getting people to talk. And I think with climate change, But it's not in the distant future, is it? This is not a threat. Climate change, we
see it on the news every day. It's a clear and present danger, isn't it? Climate change. And we have to get presumably all of those stakeholders talking about it. Do you think we're doing enough? I don't think we're doing enough. And I don't always think we're doing it in the right way either. So I wouldn't disagree with you at all that this is one of the biggest issues impacting on communities and on our quality of life. And that's just going to ramp up as climate impacts
become more obvious. And I think we're all aware also that climate change impacts first and worst on those people in society who have least, who have least choice, protection, least power. We've seen that on a global stage for decades and it's becoming evident. in the UK when you have significant climate impacts, whether that's, you know, extreme heat or flooding or air pollution, you know, whatever it is, those people that are going to suffer the most are generally those people who
are worst off. And also, by the way, probably contribute least to the problem in the first place. This is a clear kind of injustice and inequity built in here and baked into the system. The way to address that, I think, we found through our work over the last 40 years is A, not to hack to people to do something different and B, to make sure we understand where people are starting from in terms of their own experience, their own lives, the issues that they're trying
to face. It's often said, but quite often forgotten that there's no point lecturing someone about climate change when they're struggling to put food on the table. or when they've not been in work for a long time or they've got a chronic health condition or they're worried about kind of knife crime on the estate. That's not a conversation that's going to go anywhere. So all of our experience is that you have to start with where people are.
You have to think about the issues that they're facing in their everyday life and you have to help people go on that kind of journey of exploration and on that journey of discovery. kind of wagging a finger at the outset and saying we're all leading unsustainable lifestyles and you must stop shopping there and you must stop eating that, you must stop flying there, that's not going to galvanize that level of support. So our philosophy is help people think about what they want to change here
and now in their lives. And so many of those things actually start a conversation about the environment. Sometimes that's about the environment that you can see and feel and touch in your neighborhood. For some people that might be about the quality of the air that they're breathing. For other people it might be their energy bill and how to reduce that because if they reduce their energy bill they... also probably going to be saving
carbon along the way. So all of those things can spark a conversation and catalyze action that will ultimately, if we can aggregate it and if we can link that with the top -down stuff that does need to happen in terms of international agreements and regulation and government actions, that's the only way we're going to get that kind
of groundswell and a mass movement. And I think one of the things that strikes me at the moment is one of the One of the most obvious ways in is about protecting ourselves from the impacts. So I think people are starting to realize that, as you say, it is a clear and present danger. There are kind of dangerous impacts of climate change becoming evident. And that's a good conversation starter in a community. How is this community going to change? How should we protect ourselves?
So there's some remedial work that you need to do to understand how you change a place in order to make it more resilient but that again feeds into a conversation well how do you go upstream from that and how do you stop these impacts from getting worse? And of course that you mentioned government action and obviously that's part of creating a I suppose you're creating an ecosystem there of change and in terms of policy and action
on behalf of government as well. which obviously has to come with the legitimate, you know, local people on board as well. How much do you think we've gone through a pandemic, we've got a lot, you know, government's got a lot on its hands, you know, we've got wars going on, we're still recovering from the pandemic, which I'd like to talk, and I want to ask you a question exactly about your role and the impact of the pandemic,
which is... We saw during the pandemic unequal access to many of the natural benefits that you would expect from our natural world, didn't we? What's your view on that? Where have you taken that? Because I know it's something you've commented on. You've commented on the benefits gained from the outdoors, gained from the natural outdoors. And you talk about protecting, you also talk about protecting spaces. I think it's neglected
spaces. So is there a connection between that and where have you taken that work since the pandemic? Well, yes. So I think this has been a thread really through Graham's work for more than 40 years. It's about recognising that... The physical fabric of the environment surrounding us that we experience most is the kind of open spaces, the parks, the green spaces, the patch of grass at the end of the road, the community garden, all that kind of stuff. That's most people's
experience of the natural environment. And if you look at all the stats that people like Natural England do, you know, I think something like 80 % of the visits that the population goes on to the natural environment occurs in those kind of neighbourhood urban areas, as opposed to people going further afield into the countryside or to the coastline or whatever it is. So those places are absolutely important, fundamentally important to our connection. with nature and
our connection with the environment. I'm a really big fan of someone called Dr. William Bird, who's a GP but also a real champion of nature, who
talks about RNA biophilia as a species. So this idea that humans have this kind of innate connection with the natural world that is a fundamental driver of our well -being and if we feel disconnected from the natural world then we feel stress and we have a heightened sense of anxiety and that impacts on the way we we deal with everything else and I can absolutely identify with that and and it does mean that therefore there is this kind of social gradient again this this
inequity in the both distribution of that kind of well -being benefit. Not everybody has access to high quality green space close to where they live. And if you live in a densely packed urban area, then you're going to have less of it than other people. But even if it is there, some people in society feel less able to interact with it. So again, the statistics about who does visit.
green spaces in their neighbourhood demonstrates that if you've got a health condition or you're disabled or you're from a minority ethnic background or you're from a low -income background or you're a young woman, then you're less likely to be in those spaces and therefore less likely to feel that kind of wellbeing benefit that was
so critical. to everybody's ability to deal with something like the pandemic because you know that was the one thing that brought lots of people together you know the ability to go and walk out of doors and and be in nature and feel that that kind of restorative effect that you get from nature and and it's it's it's a scandal really that you know large parts of the population aren't able to enjoy that freely aren't able to enjoy that as much as others so that work
that we've always done about making sure that green infrastructure, blue infrastructure if you count kind of rivers and coastlines are accessible to people but also that we help people overcome the other barriers that they have be they social or cultural or quality related barriers so that they can feel that benefit as much as everybody else and get that kind of sense of well -being that's such an important thread of our work. Exactly that equal access and considering everybody
from in whichever position they're in. So can we just talk for a moment more deeply about the community? We talk a lot about community. My experience of community, I suppose from a working perspective, is very much bringing people together all of the time, people who might be on polar opposites in many other times. For me, whether it's politicians, council leaders, hospital chief executives, and they might have different views in other areas, but there's something that unites
them. As I say, in my case, it might have been a closure of an A &E department or potential closure of an A &E department or a mental health service or a police station. But actually, there is one thing that brings those people together, which is that cause and that need for a service that is considered valuable to that community. But what does community mean in today's UK? If you could put your finger on it, what does it
mean and what are the strengths of that? Yeah, and I don't think I can put my finger on it. It's such an interesting word, isn't it? And
we use it so often. and we use it without really thinking you know what what precisely do we mean by this and because as you say we're all in multiple communities these days you know communities around where we live but communities of interest and online communities and you know and so it's so it's a it's a real kind of you know jumble and a mixture of all sorts of interests that we have you know what what what brings us into contact with other people i think What I'm interested
in, and again what a lot of our work as an organisation has been around, is that community of place which I still think is fundamentally important. indeed probably more important as we live more of our lives online and therefore interacting in different ways online and we tend to interact online with people who are a little bit more like us. We gravitate to spaces where we feel kind of comfortable and accepted and everybody understands each other straight away but in those communities of place
we are genuinely and generally quite mixed. And we bump into people who are not like us, who have got different value sets, who have got different backgrounds and different stories. But what brings us together is our shared experience of the place that we're in. And again, the environment within that place. is one of those kind of great levelers. So we all experience that environment in our own ways, but it's the place where a lot of this stuff, a lot of this interaction can happen and
what brings us all together. So again, going back to the pandemic, one of the things I thought was really interesting is that those are the places where we met. You have to stand quite a few feet apart and shout at each other through the wind and rain. But effectively, you wander off to the local park and that's where you had your social interaction. And even when you think about town centres these days, which we always complain have been decimated by the rise of online
shopping. quite a lot of time. We still wander into the town centre because we want to be in a shared space with people. I mean it may be that all we do now in the town centre is go for coffee in one of the many coffee chains that are there. We do less of our shopping in the town centre but we gravitate there because we want to be around people and we want to be in
that shared space. So there is something I think about wanting to connect with the people around us in a neighbourhood, in an area, in a place. potentially is a platform for some really powerful stuff about setting norms and understanding difference and building cohesion and working together on a project that unites us all. And again, you know, the physical fabric of the environment and the natural environment within that which we feel such a connection to is a real opportunity.
You know, it's a platform for doing great things, I think. And tell me a little bit about those great things that you're doing at the moment in terms of connecting and raising awareness of those people who have the least being impacted the most. What are you working on at this moment? So there's a few things which are really current in our organization and some of these are emanations of stuff we've been doing. for decades or more.
So still that focus on how do you connect people with nature on their doorstep is a massive thing for us. But an interesting way in which that's playing out at the moment is through the support and management of what might be called green community hubs. So these are places where... people come along and visit either an open space or an open space that's got a building in it and maybe a little cafe, something like that. So something, a draw in a neighborhood that pulls
people in. And you can either come along and socialize and have a cup of tea with your neighbors or you can get stuck in as a volunteer. You can do some of the gardening or fruit growing or whatever it is. But what we're noticing more and more is that when you have a place like that, actually people are starting to use those venues for lots of other stuff. So we've got some examples of those community hubs which are being used by health visitors to give out health promotion
advice. We're using them to support people with workshops about their energy bills, their energy efficiency. So they're just a place where you can co -locate. services. They can act as a kind of stimulus for people to volunteer their time and do something worthwhile in their local area. We don't call them our volunteers. They're not
groundwork volunteers. They're people working in their community in a voluntary capacity to make that place better and to enable their residents, their neighbors and other residents to enjoy that space and get some benefit out of them for their own purpose. So that's a really interesting area of work that's growing. And another area which I think again has always been a thread of our activity but is coming to the fore is thinking about people who are currently not able
to work out of the labour market. disadvantaged in multiple ways, sometimes with health issues or disability issues or an offending background or whatever it is, people that haven't necessarily done as well academically as they might. And we see the numbers of young people not in employment, education and training topping a million again.
So it always kind of goes up and down but it's on the up at the moment and that's a cause for concern because the longer a young person spends out of education or out of work, the less likely they are to fulfill their potential later on in life. So we've always had strands of work which is about helping people get skills and
think about jobs in the environment. Just at the moment, if you think about the need to decarbonize the economy and to make sure we've got a kind of nature rich economic underpinning and all of those industries that need to grow in order to do that are crying out for skills. There's a massive skill shortage in things like sustainable construction or in waste in the circular economy
or in energy and retrofit. or in land management, nature recovery, and we've got a rising tide of kind of young people who are out of work. We need to do something to address those twin issues. The green energy and the green sector, it's a challenging place to be, but it's certainly an exciting place as well with a lot of potential, isn't it, for careers and jobs of the future and re -skilling people as well in that area. In terms of our own lifestyle habits, we've seen
climate change. We're being told that we've got to change our diets. We're being told that let's look at the energy, how we consume energy on our own homes, how we buy, whether it's retail. What do you think the public's appetite is for key lifestyle changes? Do you think, Graham, you're in the... You've worked for so long in the charity sector, but do you think people think, oh, it's someone else's problem. Government will just sort this out. Eventually it will become
legislation and it will become law. This isn't something that is because you've actually a few moments ago talked about economic hardships. People have got a lot on their plate at the moment, but do you think it's something that people care enough about? What's the appetite for change? I do think people care. And I think people right across society care, and I think people of all
ages and all backgrounds care. I think our biggest challenge is it's so easy to be overwhelmed by the scale of the problem that that leads to a degree of inertia. You know, where do you start? What do you do? How am I ever going to make a difference, you know, to these big challenging stories I read on the news. And we know for some people that tips over from kind of feeling overwhelmed into anxiety, you know, genuine kind of mental health issues around, you know, worry about the
future and so on. The antidote to that I've always felt is making sure people have agency to do something, to make some kind of change. And that's also why I think this, you know, working in and with a community to make that change is even more important because if you can do it in conjunction with others around you, that adds to that sense of agency and you've got some power and there
is potential to make a difference. I think, as you said in your introduction, you know, the discourse around climate change is either the government's just got to sort it out. What are they waiting for? They need to do something. And we know it's going to be painful. So, you know, just get on with it at some point. We'll take our medicine. But the only other thing that we get talked about is why you've got to change your lifestyle and not eat meat three times a
week. So it defaults to those kind of individual sacrifices that you're supposed to make. And it really misses. the kind of power and potential of coming together with other people to make a genuine and sometimes quite transformative change in our own local areas. And that's what I think we need to be focusing on more. It gives people a sense of power that they can achieve something. But it also plays on the fact that if everybody's doing it in a space, then it must
be normal. And it resets our sense of what those norms are. Um, so I've always felt that, you know, rather than go around knocking on individual doors saying, can we put solar panels on your roof? Um, you know, that should be a, well, the vans are parked up in, you know, these five streets for the next six weeks and everybody's already done, you know, it's just normal, isn't it? That's,
that's what goes on around here. Um, and that's the sense that we've got to get to, I think, because instinctively, I feel that everybody. the vast majority of people want to make the changes that are being talked about or they see the positive potential of those changes. Life will be better if we get there and at the moment. you know, we can only see things going in the wrong direction. So we've somehow got to intervene in that and create the conditions for that collective
action. There's a lot of change, isn't there? And just the way we see, we talked about the outdoors and the way we see our landscape, you know, we go to the countryside and we like to see cows in the field, but actually they're not great. It's not great to have a lot of cows in the field. It's just the way we perceive and our vision, isn't it? And accepting that everything
is... open and up for change. And while we're talking about change and people's appetite, and you've obviously got this huge passion for the environment, you've always had it. How has that impacted your own lifestyle? And how important is your community to you? And is it do you live this sustainable lifestyle that everybody talks about? I can answer that one. Absolutely. No, no, I don't. I don't. I don't live it in that way, because like everybody else, I'm kind of
compromised. by my modern living. For me, it is really important. That connection with nature that I talked about earlier that William Byrd is such a champion of, I absolutely feel that. It makes me feel better and I feel worse if I don't have that connection with nature on a regular basis. Now I'm lucky. I know I'm lucky. I've got a garden that's outside my house and I live on the edge of a town so I can get into the countryside quite easily from where I am on the foot or on
a bike. And I'd feel bereft if I weren't able to do those things. But I know that that's a privileged position to be in and lots of people aren't as fortunate as that, which is why I'm such an advocate of addressing the kind of social injustice. that there is at the heart of our environmental dilemma. And I also need to feel part of my neighborhood. It gives me a real sense of comfort. I feel I belong to a place and I
know people around here. So it's very intangible stuff, but it's something that is felt quite deeply within us all, I think. and not everybody has the ability to express it or enjoy it or feel the benefit of it. But as I said, like many other people, the choices are not always straightforward. I don't have a car, I don't drive, I don't eat meat, but I've got kids and there's... you know, charges left, right and centre, drawing on the power supply and there's a flight off on holiday
every now and again. So, you know, we mustn't beat ourselves up about all of these things and we mustn't beat up other people about all of these things and we mustn't be judgmental. We need to find the ways to make the right choices easier. And we need to give people the support and the power to get on and make the changes that they want to make. I mean, that's very refreshing to hear because you are like most of us and I can identify with most of what you've just said
about the position that we're in. But what you've done is you've used that privilege of being able to enjoy, as you say, the outdoors. I'm also very lucky. I have wonderful parks. I'm lucky enough to have a garden. But you've used that privilege to make a difference to other people's lives. And I think that is... That is the golden nugget, really. And that's the wonder of it, about everything that you've done has driven you for over so many years. OK, I'm going to
ask this question. I do ask it of our podcast guests. Are you an optimist or pessimist? It depends on the day of the week and what's in the news. So what I am optimistic about actually is really optimistic. about is we do a lot of work with young people in our organisation. And tomorrow, in fact, I'm going to be in the office meeting our new intake of our Youth Advisory Board. And having met them online, they're just such a fantastically energetic, inspirational
bunch of people. So what I'm really optimistic about is that there's a generation coming through the ranks. that understands some of this stuff, absolutely understands it, absolutely feels it. It isn't the generation that you see typified on some TV screens, but is a generation of genuinely passionate and compassionate people who are really imbued with sense of purpose about getting this right. So after tomorrow, after I've been with our youth advisory board for a day, I'll be on
one of my optimistic moments. Okay, so you'll gain inspiration from them, but obviously they'll gain a huge amount of inspiration from you because presumably that you can see yourself as you were once at that point when you were volunteering. To a degree, although the other bit of optimism I have is that some of the young people we engage with these days are darn sight more. It was full of go -ahead than I ever was at that age. So, I'm hugely impressed. Okay. So, that was then
and now's now. So, this is where you are today. What next for you? Obviously, you've been highly successful. You're highly influential. You've joined the UK 100 board. I'm not sure if you could explain what that means. That would be great for you. But what next for you in your career? Well, I think I said at the outset in the introduction, I'm not a planner. I've arrived here somewhat by accident and I'm still not a
planner, so I don't have a great game plan. So I'll give you the... the classic football manager's response that we'll take each game as it comes and we'll see what happens. I'm really delighted to be part of the UK 100 set up at Must Amit because that is an organisation that's bringing together and lifting up the voices of local government
leaders who are committed to this agenda. And for all the reasons that we've just been talking about in the last half an hour, I feel local government is absolutely integral to our ability to deal with these issues due to their ability to connect with their communities, their ability to make things happen. And the fact that local government is so under the cosh at the moment for various reasons is one of the reasons why I wanted to join in on that debate and give my
support in whatever way I can. So yeah, if I've got any ambitions left in terms of my career, it is genuinely to see others. coming through and ready to lead the charge and pick up the baton. That's what's driving me now. How do we support the next group of leaders? Fantastic. So it's bringing those voices together and then being generous with supporting the next generation, if you like, of leaders and seeing that power
at grassroots level. is so important. I think that's where power ultimately comes from personally, is at grassroots level. Thank you very much to Graham. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate
commitments. Today we work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast channels. Please tell us what you think. Email us at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. Huge thank you to Graham for sharing your life with us today, but also all that amazing experience. So thank you very much to Graham Duxbury. It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information about our work and to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.