This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe that you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task today is to get all of
us to net zero. Welcome today to my guest Veronica Sikoulis who has more than 30 years experience working in art galleries. She is an art curator, educator and writer with a background in the environmental movement and is Director of Groundwork Gallery in Kingslyn, England, which she created in 2016 to showcase art and to campaign for the environment, a subject she has long been interested
in. Her long -term interest in the environment, which informs Groundwork Gallery, stems from a formative period working for Friends of the Earth. As a result of this, she wrote the Friends of the Earth cookbook published by Penguin Books in 1980 and has many books including on medieval art. About groundwork, she has said, my idea was to create a social, political and educational asset as well as a new place for showing art. Groundwork Gallery has hosted more than 20 exhibitions
and won several awards. Before that, Veronica is known for her work at Sainsbury Centre for Visual Arts, University of East Anglia, where she was first curator, then head of education and research and deputy director. From there, she has run many international and local projects. She has also worked as an independent consultant. And from 2005 to 2006... She was on secondment to Tate Britain to manage the early stages of the visual dialogues project for young people.
Delighted to have you. Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you. Now, Veronica, can we start by you telling us a little bit about your career because you're an art historian, a published author. And you're now heading up and, as I said, formed and developed and launched this successful and unique gallery space with a focus on the environment. And you've also been called an environmental activist. So tell me a little about this journey
and how it started. Well, I mean, it actually started with my grandmother taking me to see art when I was four, against the advice of my parents who said she'd be bored. But I wasn't. I was completely enthralled. And I remember seeing a portrait of which she took me to the National Portrait Gallery and she gossiped with her friend while I stared at the Armada portrait of Queen Elizabeth I and imagined myself in there with
her. And that was really formative, both I think probably me as a medievalist or historian anyway because not medieval but almost, but also just loving art from that moment and being an advocate also for that being important for young people throughout their lives. So that was one thing. I mean the other really formative thing was after I finished my degree, which was in art history, it turned out also my grandmother had studied art history in Vienna. I was joining Friends
of the Earth. That was a chance move. I needed a job for the summer and my friend was leaving and was running their administrative office and I went for an interview the next day and got the job running the front office, which I did, I then extended, I was signed up to do PhD, but I put that off so I could do an extra year. That was really transformative and made me think very much about how influence is made, how people, how one works both, has need to work both bottom
up and top down to have an effect. And it's affected my entire career and my entire approach to how to organize things. So those were the two things really. What the gallery has done is brought a lot of those early things together and also my experience working with communities and working with people. I think it's very important to talk
about art. There was a time when I did want to be an artist and could have gone that way, but actually I was, for one reason or another didn't, but actually I found that there is a huge role to play in talking about art and responding to it and it's a responsibility that everybody has or ought to have because it's through that that the beautiful things and important things that artists make then get an intelligent response and that's the one thing actually the art world's
really not very good at. I mean there are education departments but they tend to be stereotypically directed towards children, which is important, but actually there's a huge audience potential amongst adults. There is. Art has this very magical way of bringing us into a conversation. Forget language, forget politics. It has a way, like you talked about your very early experience, it has a way of absorbing us and triggering a conversation, no matter how we feel about it.
doesn't it? I mean, art is accessible. Yes, it does. But I mean, ironically, people are terribly afraid of that because they feel they need to talk knowledgeably, which of course you don't have to talk knowledgeably. You just need to express yourself and use it as a trigger to talk. I mean, one of my friends and mentors in the environment movement said to me a long time ago, I don't need artists to talk about art. I can
talk about art. It's there for me. A new work of art is a new thing come into being and it's there for me to launch from and that's important. Yes. It's about how we feel, isn't it? And as you say, it can portray something that's perhaps difficult to say and we don't need to make everything terribly complicated. But in terms of climate change, because we're talking about climate change today and we're looking at massive challenges as we face climate change, What part do you think?
We've just talked about that responsibility that we all have. I mean, artists have that responsibility to talk about this agenda, not agenda, but to talk about what is happening to our planet. What part do you think art has to play? As we've started saying, it can be a transformative experience. In that respect, it can help people think about
change. Artists are very good at being lateral thinkers and not going for the most obvious but pointing out things that have been neglected or, for example, thinking about weeds rather than present them. So I think it's about influencing people to think openly about things and about the environment. And I think thinking about climate change, we have to think about the environment very broadly and very deeply. It's not just about reaching net zero. Reaching net zero includes
that, of course. Now, I was speaking in a recent podcast actually to Australian artist Catherine Boland. She's actually UK born. And it was her piece of art actually that was given by the Australian Prime Minister to Joe Biden when he was president. She works around climate change. Her studio is in the bush and the area that she lives, which is incredibly beautiful around Mirambula Lake,
was very impacted by the bushfires. And she talked to me very passionately about being able to talk about climate change, but in a very direct and digestible way. She felt that her art was a way of getting to people in a subtle but It is there
in that way. And your gallery, it's obviously a wonderful place to come and visit, but the artists that you're showing, can you tell me a little bit about who they are, but what they are showing and what do you expect from the artists that you show in terms of their commitment to the environment and sustainability, their sustainable art practices, for example? I always say they don't have to be committed environmentalists
directly. because I am and my audiences and that's what I'm here for is to engage with with that bridge as it were. For example the very first two artists I showed Richard Long and Roger Ackling. Roger Ackling was a dear friend who lived in Norfolk was well known in the art world particularly but pretty well known and very well known in Japan and he made art by burning on wood. He died very sadly during my setting up of the gallery But I said to him, Roger, I want you to be my
first artist, because I'd like a big name. And he said, well, in that case, I've asked Richard. And so he asked Richard Long, who has since become friend. Neither of them declared themselves to be environmentalists. And recently, Richard Long gave a talk in Norwich and said, I'm passionate about nature. It matters to me. And the environment matters to me. But I'm not an activist, neither of them. And there are a lot of artists like that who are don't call themselves environmental
artists. And that's perfectly fine. But in those two cases, their work is absolutely ethical in terms of not causing harm to the environment. And that's my bottom line. Very reluctant, for example, to show artists who paint with acrylics. Because as I learned from working with a microbiologist, every brush worth even of household paint washes billions of microparticles of plastics into the
drainage system. and that's one of the big no -no's for me but I mean that quote there are other problems so there's there's a lot to think about in terms of materials artists use in terms of the practicalities but I look for artists who are seriously engaged in their own research and their own deep thinking so as I said doesn't be directly about the environment it has to be relevant and then there are many many many artists who would would say they are environmental who
paint watercolours of landscapes, for example, or skyscapes or seascapes or anyscapes. And I like that kind of thing, but I feel there's a place for that that's already taken in many popular galleries. And I feel I need to work and push a bit harder and work with people whose work is less accessible, but actually can be really powerful in its impact. And so I follow themes.
I've always thought in that way rather than looking at, I don't do solo shows and work on personalities, although the odd big name does help, but another big name I had in the early days, and it was important in the early days actually to establish that, those big names, because that means now actually I can pretty much rely on that I could
show anyone. Yes. The other big name was Herman de Vries, who's an extraordinary grand old man of the environment, who lives near the forest in the Steigerwald, he's Dutch but lives in Germany.
and he says the forest is my studio and he's a scientist at root at heart but actually an exploratory experimental artist but using earth pigments but in a very simple and clear way and he's like he's got a museum in the south of france of his earth pigments which he's collected from around the world and made into images and they're very simple and actually there were some of the earliest things I showed and also his collection of stones and they were incredibly irritating
to all the watercolour artists because he spent hours making detailed images and he just kind of stroked the pigment on the paper. So I had many conversations with him saying he's a natural philosopher and actually one of those most vehement
critics said he's a charlatan. he became a very devoted follower of the gallery you know so i love those conversations or when i've got my richard long which is the great ooze mud drawing he threw mud at the wall and the classic comment people make is did the builders throw coffee at the wall? And that's the beginning of a conversation. Yeah, it is that, it's triggering that conversation
exactly. And I mean, none of this is, it's obviously not new, because you've mentioned Richard Long, who's obviously been around for a while and been working for a while. And then I think back to Agnes Deane in the 1980s and the wheat field. in Manhattan there, and which really got people talking. And there are many, there's Andy Goldsworth,
he isn't there, Yorkshire Sculpture Park. So there's a lot of stuff, it's not new, but it's giving it a fresh showcase, I suppose, and bringing it back into the conversation and using it to inspire another generation as well, isn't it? Yes, I've mentioned great, two great, three great men. But actually, in fact, most of the artists I've shown have been women overall, and most of them much, much less high profile and less well known. And they all love showing their work.
The Richard Long work lives in my gallery all the time and people always take photographs of their work next to it and they're very proud to be seen next to it. There are many, many, many artists who are working seriously. who are not celebrated but who need to be recognized and brought into conversations and their work seen and developed. So what I've been doing, I said I had theme shows and many found many
really wonderful artists that way. Some people have come to me, some people have recommended, some people I look for once I know the theme and I think yes, that person would be perfect for that. The works I often like the most are the most modest and the smallest and the most subtle because they're not shouty and there's some shouty big artists in the environment world. The people I show tend not to be, they're the
quiet ones. I respond to that very much but the other thing I've really done more and more of over the years is develop a residency program and it started because I designed the building as repurposed 1930s building and the ground floor's classic gallery first floor multi -purpose live workspace and so I was intended to have an artist working there living there. And so it started in 2020 with a partnership with the University of the Arts London, and a young artist had that
space. In fact, I had three, because there were two others of my own, one after the other. And then immediately afterwards, they had an exhibition. And the next year, there were more artists. And I had then two partners, both in the country, one in Reefam and one in Great Cressingham Grange projects. And we had more. And then it grew. Last year we had 20 artists, this year we had 150 applications, but we're scaling down to 12
artists. But what I do now is they do a program over the summer and then they show for the autumn exhibition. So what we're really getting is a response to the environment directly. Yes, so you are engaging even more people. But can I just talk to you for a moment, Veronica, about the actual space? Because in terms of the way you operate Groundwork Gallery, I just want to understand what kind of sustainable measures you have in place that reflect this mission.
Because it's actually built on a floodplain. You say it's a repurposed 1930s building. And how has that impacted the way you use? I mean, built on a floodplain, how has that impacted the way you use? You've got these wonderful pieces of art, and I'm slightly worried that you're built there on a floodplain. Granny died, left legacy. In fact, a series of grannies died, or grannies and aunts, and so that enabled the project to take place. So they're all commemorated there.
And it was started as just a project to get a buy -to -let property, but then this little industrial building was available opposite the Custom House, perfect position in Kingslyn. but actually yes right on the river as an investment it's hopeless because one day it will be washed away but that was one of the imperatives making it about the environment and also the fact that it is in the floodplain is not allowed to be lived in on the ground floor so that had to be some other purpose.
It wasn't necessarily always going to be a gallery in my mind. I was thinking, should I run workshops there or I could let it? But anyway, then I thought, no, it's got to be. It cannot be anything else. It's perfect scale. And so I found a local builder who said, I've made enough money this year. I'll build it at cost for you. And he also did a lot
of repurposing of materials. The floors and the staircase are made of scaffold boards and there's a scaffold rail as a stair rail which is actually one of the most admired features of the building, funnily enough. The bathrooms are lined with recycled plastic made by artists and the top floor is a holiday let and that's what pays. And there I've used local materials, designer
materials, high quality handmade stuff. So locally, very locally sourced and sustainable and you're using a local local craftspeople as well as well as materials. Yes, I mean in fact the gallery is run on a shoestring and I am the chief technician as well as the chief writer and marketer and everything else delivery person and everything and it has to be that because I can't afford
to pay staff. I have wonderful volunteers and I have a fantastic graphic designer Piers Marchbank who's really help to establish the ethos and the look of the place. So I've got a suite of exhibition furniture which gets used for everything but somehow it manages to look different each time. So I've got plinths and things that I was given by the Sainsbury Centre. A great big table case I had made at the beginning. I sell jewellery made by artists in cases that again I've had
since the beginning and reuse all the time. So I'm waiting for somebody to make a substitute for bubble wrap that really is both waterproof and keeps things safe because that is at the moment the only unavoidable big issue. Yeah, but I reuse that. And when people come into the space, I'm quite interested to know who wanders in. Do you think people realize that that much thought has gone into that space? They get told that on the call because we talk to everybody
who comes in. And Catherine, who works with me, also is wonderful, very wonderfully sociable and informed and good at talking to people. And they often don't realize, and we get quite a few people, increasingly people dropping in. I mean, people are often afraid of coming into galleries and feel intimidated, et cetera. We know that. We make a point of being friendly. And it does say so on TripAdvisor and on Google. The first thing you see is the statement saying
that staff are very friendly. So that's an important signal to send. People will get a warm welcome and get to talk to you about the staircase just as much as they can talk to you about the art on the walls. Yes, and also everyone has something to say about the environment and the weather is a good opening. So we could always steer the conversation. Now it's fascinating and it's a huge passion project as well as a fantastic addition to the local community. I can see that and to
the art world. and to be able to bring such a mix of names into that project as well. But for you, I can see you certainly have got your work cut out. As you say, you're the technician, you're the communications, you've got the vision, you've clearly got the vision. But what next for you? Because you've obviously had a highly successful career, you've published author. You've launched this gallery, you've headed major art projects.
What next, Veronica, because it's really interesting to keep an eye on people like you, because I know you've probably got a whole bag full of further ideas and plans. Well, there are two big things. One is that there's a big threat at the moment of development to The Wash, which is the area between Lake Country and Norfolk.
We're gathering a band of people from wildlife organizations, environmental campaigners and artists to make a very big statement in favor of the environment of that whole area because the threat would turn it in basically into an industrial zone and it would be really terrible and needs to be contained. That's going to be a huge campaign that's we go way, way beyond me but I hope grandma will be very keen in that.
I mean the other thing I'm thinking about and I'm not sure yet is but I'm thinking about writing a history of art and environment because if you look up art environment history it starts in American land art and of course it started way before and as a medievalist I feel there's a lot to say about earlier periods. I'm just reading actually Peter Frank Pan's The Earth Transformed which it is taking an environmental focus on very broad sweeps of history. For me that's incredibly
broad. I would want to be quite specific in the way I am with art and would like to use case studies and examples to talk about different attitudes because there's a lot that we can do and that I guess is my background as an art historian does give me the tools to think from a work of art to a wider world and that's what I'd like to do. Okay so we're going to look out for the campaigns, the books and obviously the gallery and can I ask is that gallery open how many days
a week for people wanting to come by? It's open four days a week, so Wednesday to Saturday, 11th or 4th, but other times by appointment and often there are events happening on other days. Okay, well, I'm definitely going to come and I'll leave the dog outside, but she'll be with me, but I'm definitely going to come. So, thank you very much for this conversation today and for taking such time and we really appreciate it here at
the Decarbonisation Dialogue. So there can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge of our time. Today we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. Today we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments. Today we work for
tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast channels and please tell us what you think and please email us at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. So a big thank you to Veronica for her time today. Thank you. Thank you very much. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information about our work and to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash. podcasts.