This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our collective challenge. I am Hannah Walker, and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Today, I have my super guest here, Anna Turns.
Anna is a published author, journalist and lecturer. Anna studied biology at university and today specialises in all things sustainability, from climate change and renewable energy to marine issues, food and farming. It's Anna's job as a communicator to inspire all of us into climate action. Anna has worked in the media for more than two decades, from TV production to magazine journalism and broadcast and radio broadcasting.
As a freelance environmental journalist working at The Conversation, she has also regularly contributed to many national publications, including The Guardian, BBC Future, New Scientist and Positive News with a focus on solutions. Her first book, Go Toxic Free, Easy and Sustainable Ways to Reduce Chemical Pollution, was published in 2022. And Anna lives in Devon -by -the -Sea with her family. I'm delighted to have Anna Turnes with me today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for inviting
me, Hannah. Thank you. Right, moving straight into our questions. Anna, can you tell us, start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your career. Have you always wanted to work in the media? And I'd like to know whether today you consider yourself as being a journalist, educator, author, or an environmental activist,
or all of the above. So, since I studied biology, I knew I wanted to work somewhere in that field and I actually considered doing a PhD but I decided I wanted to know lots about lots of different things and ask lots of questions rather than know a lot about one specialism. The part I loved most about my degree was also the writing essays, the storytelling and the being really curious and so I've managed to do that through my whole
career. whether that is wildlife TV or magazine journalism, radio, storytelling, all of those aspects. And now I'm actually kind of come full circle. So I'm working for the conversation. I'm working directly with academics at universities and helping them tell their stories about their research. So I think what's always driven me and what's always given me that purpose, whichever media, whichever form I'm working in, is this
want to. look at what's actually happening in response to the problem so we've obviously facing a lot of different crises at the moment in terms of pollution nature biodiversity climate everything um some people call it the poly crisis just to kind of sum it up in one in well one fell swoop and actually that can be really overwhelming so many people disengage from from content from mainstream media so i really love the challenge of trying to find creative ways to make that
inspiring and make that um bring a pull factor into that and kind of get people over here to look at what's actually happening um in terms of whether i consider myself um an activist no it's a really tricky thing and i think this question is is a really important one for all communicators to think about at different times i have put myself into the story and become part of the the mission i suppose like i have done my own environmental campaign a few years ago with my
daughter i ran a campaign called plastic clever sulcan which was part of kids against plastic a national initiative um and that was brilliant and i used my journalism to try and help amplify the the kind of the storytelling around that but as a journalist i feel very strongly that my job is to report on what's actually happening i suppose i feel like i've got a responsibility to lead by example so if I know something is going to be better for the environment and and
better for society I try and do my best to do it I'm very much not perfect but if I have seen the evidence for something I I do my best to to practice what I preach although I'm not hopefully preaching actually um I think in terms of my own journalism I really have a strong purpose in terms of wanting to amplify those solutions so I'm not just reporting on the problem I'm very much selecting and seeking out stories of progress change makers who are doing amazing
things to try and highlight what is possible and to give a bit of hope I suppose to show that actually it's not all doom and gloom so in that way maybe some people might think oh that's my sort of form of activism But I wouldn't say I'm an activist. I'm not campaigning for something. It's all very evidence -based. It's rigorous reporting. And I'm, yeah, it's more complex than that, I think. I think it's a very blurred line. There's a spectrum. And I think I'm not writing
opinion pieces. I'm not campaigning in the pieces I write, but there's a... Yeah, there's a definite strong sense of purpose, I would say, in what I do. Indeed, because I first actually came in contact with you when I was working for a large London newspaper. And I had launched a couple of big campaigns, one of which was plastics, plastic free, as well as clean air. And that's how we first met, if you like, was because I commissioned you to write quite a few pieces,
actually, for the plastic free. And your passion came across incredibly strongly at that time. And just having this wealth of information at your fingertips, but such well -researched work. So it was part of a bigger campaign that we were running, but you were able to contribute to that in a very informed, knowledgeable way and helping us to talk about those issues, obviously plastics.
as well as clean air. But you talked very much there about the huge challenges we face, because we are facing huge challenges on the climate change agenda. And governments are somewhat distracted. We've got geopolitical strife, we've got food crisis, we've got cost of living crisis, we've got war going on. But is there a joined up approach, do you think? when we're talking about climate crisis for businesses, governments and us all.
And that's you and me. Yes, absolutely. And I do think it's really interesting looking at those three parts because so much of the narrative focuses on individual action. And we can only do so much as citizens, consumers, homeowners, whatever. We can do a lot as a collective. But actually, we need those other parts. So we need the government. We need the legislation. We need regulation. That's very, very slow to move. It's
more like a kind of cargo ship. Whereas I think business is a bit more like a small powerboat, maybe. It can pivot much more easily. It's got more flexibility. And I think business is really, really key to shifting the landscape and to demanding more change at scale. And also responding to that collective call for action from consumers, from citizens. In all of those three parts of the system, I think we need a huge amount of accountability. So at the moment, there is a
lot of greenwashing business. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in regulation. There's lots
of loopholes. There's lots of confusion. And we don't, I don't think, have a really clear... cohesive approach often things change every four years when the government changes and we're starting from scratch again we need to have a really non -partisan long -term shift in things so we can actually really build on that momentum and make systemic change that is going to last i think it's interesting anna sorry just to take you back to that business you mentioned business
because i know that you've done you do a series of 60 second podcast stories don't you and you talk about the consumer and the relationship they have with business and the way that we make choices and the way that people should question business, question what you're buying. So when organisations or businesses are making claims about, you said the word greenwashing, but when businesses are making claims about this is eco -friendly or it's nature -inspired or biodegradable,
all of those, that's something. that you've just touched upon there is questioning and doing that quite robustly. And I think that's where my science background comes in. It's like, I want to know what the proof is. Anyone can put any marketing language on any packaging. And actually a lot of those words that you've just mentioned are not regulated. So it's not illegal for them to say something is eco -friendly, but it might not be. So what I'm sort of calling for is a
little bit more. confidence to really call that out and and check and look at what the verification is for those claims look at any certification and holding those retailers those businesses that industry to account is going to make them ultimately more transparent because they're going to have to do a little bit more legwork to to prove what the ingredients are what the supply chain involves where things come from how something was made and And I think that empowers us, that
empowers us to know more and to then make more informed choices. And also, it's a really good way of supporting the businesses and the people that are doing a lot more and going further to make things more truly sustainable. Okay, so when you write, we've talked about inspiring action on climate change, but What about, there's a selection of people, there is no doubt that the climate is getting warmer, but there are a selection of people feeling that, oh, someone
else will sort this climate problem out. It's not our problem. Governments are going to sort it out. Businesses are going to sort it out. So by making it everybody's challenge, you're asking, you're giving the responsibility back to us, aren't you? You're saying... it's our time to question and challenge everything. But a lot of people are just not doing that, are they? A lot of people do think it's someone else
has got to have their head around this. Yeah, so I do think it is our leader's responsibility. I don't think it's our responsibility, but I think we can catalyse change. I think we can accelerate things and speed things up and support business in speeding that up as well. I think... doing nothing to me is not really an option. But I know a lot of people, this is not on their agenda. And it might be because they are working three jobs or trying to get food on the table.
And I totally, totally get that. Because this is part of my job, and I feel really strongly about it. I do talk about it a lot with my friends
and with family and with colleagues. And I think even just having those conversations is a really important first step in terms of bringing that awareness and with that that need for accountability so I don't think it is down to each and every one of us solely I think we have a role to play and I think by holding business and governments to account we can make sure they're going to do the right thing even if it is as simple as voting for better leaders or moving banks switching
banks and putting your money somewhere that you know is going to be invested in ethical things That's an incredibly powerful thing, much more so than turning off light switches and recycling plastic bottles, because it has that really wide impact and also over a long time as well. So I also don't think blame is very useful. I think we're all in this system. We all live in this system. We don't want to give up our current lifestyles. We want to we want to kind of carry
on as we are. create a greener, fairer future that is better. And we all have a role to play in that. And talking of the wider media coverage of climate change, we switch on the news, open a website, news website, climate, there's some disaster, isn't there, wherever it is, it's close to home or across the world. How do you, what's your view of how, of the tone of that coverage? could be easy to catastrophize the issue, but
it's that balance, isn't it? Telling the story without catastrophizing, because once you start catastrophizing, people start to think it's not just, it's somebody else's problem, but it's too late. I can't do anything about this. So it's gone beyond our control. What do you think about the media coverage in general? I think it's really mixed. And I think we could all be a bit more conscious about how we choose which
media we're taking in. It's very easy, especially with social media, to kind of be bombarded by particular messages or algorithms, for example. And there is a lot of brilliant media out there, but there's also a lot of inaccurate media and also very negative, sort of disempowering media. I do think we need the bad news. I think we need the real stories of what's actually happening. And I think in the last maybe decade, it's become a lot more apparent that this is happening right
now, right here. We've got floods in the UK, for example. We've got the fires in LA. We've got stuff happening. It's not in this far -flung place. It's not just about polar bears. It's immediate and it's here and it's real. But I do think that the media has sometimes got its own agenda. You look at who is funding the media and you think, OK, what's going on behind the
scenes? I think a lot of listeners and consumers of news might not necessarily be aware of what's going on behind the scenes in terms of who is funding the media, what that agenda might be. So I think critical thinking is really, really, really key. But I also think solutions journalism or constructive journalism, as it's also known, could be a lot more embedded into everything that we consume in our media diets. And this isn't to say, here's a solution, here's a silver
bullet, this is going to fix everything. It's very much still very critical, still analysing a response to a problem, but looking at the progress and looking at how that might be scalable, how that might be adaptable. What are the lessons we can learn from this trial of whether it's EVs in Oslo, for example, like looking at the whole picture and thinking, OK, why is that working in that context? What can we learn from that? And how could we change something here, perhaps?
I mean, it could be anything. It's not just environmental things either. It's social problems too. I do think that that could be done in a much more comprehensive way. So still quite newsy and not necessarily just a kind of a solutions type story. But just having that lens, having that way of telling a story can just be a bit more uplifting, a bit more hopeful. And it's shining a light on what is being done already. It's not just looking at there's a problem, we're all doomed
and leaving people hanging there. Because actually you're left in this limbo without anywhere to go, without a call to action. I just try and be really curious about, OK, we've got a problem. What's happening and what are people doing about it? Who are the organisations that are taking action? Who are the people on the front line who are most at risk, who are doing something about this? And that's often where the best stories are, I think. Exactly. And you talk there about
young people as well. I think you mentioned young people now. And you lecture, you've worked with university students. And they're certainly not sitting on their hands on this issue, are they? They are looking for solutions. The young climate activists, you know, are looking for, we are talking about solutions. It's interesting to see how the young climate activists are being portrayed in the media. How do you think they
are perceived? So I think a lot of pressure is put on them and I don't, it doesn't sit right with me. So I think it's brilliant that, people of all ages are calling things out, whether it is younger people, older people, scientists, there's a whole range of real activists, which is brilliant. I think when people say, oh, my hope is with the younger generation, I don't think we've got time to wait for them to become
the leaders of tomorrow. And it's not their problem in the first, it's not their, they're not the cause of the problem in the first place. So while they are perhaps kind of bringing focus to the issue, I think we need to hurry up and make decisions. The leaders in control at the moment and the business owners are the ones that need to be really sort of thinking, okay, what are we going to do now that's going to improve things for generations to come? I do think there is still
a mix of engagement. So I'm not actually lecturing anymore. I lectured for a few years, part -time alongside my journalism. I do still do media training with university academics through the conversation. And so I still do some things and some guest lectures. I still think it's a completely mixed bag. So I don't think all young people are super engaged, just as all older people are not. I think there's still a real spectrum. So I think how it's portrayed in the media is not
necessarily fair all the time. So there's a lot of stereotypes and there's a lot of generalizations. So I think it's just about context and looking at, sort of zooming out and looking at the whole picture. I think that's really important. So change, we've mentioned the word change quite a few times and you're very interested in the psychology of that. And going back to the public's appetite for change, we're going to have to make
some key lifestyle changes, aren't we? I think you're still a member of the Guild of Food Writers. Yes. Yes, you're still a member. So, I mean, we're going to have to make changes to our diet, for example. That's just one of the changes. Are we going to change? Can we change that much? Can we eat less meat? Can we buy less? I mean, we're buying more than we've ever bought before. We're consuming more, whether it's clothing, food, home style, bits and pieces. We are big
consumers, aren't we? Far more than we were 15,
20 years ago. Totally. And I think that's a really interesting question because yes we need to change but so many of the changes when it comes to becoming more sustainable in inverted commas are about not doing something or doing something less and what I would love to see is more like let's eat more vegetables let's eat more seasonal food let's eat more of this not let's eat less of this because that's quite constricting and soon as you say don't do something to someone it's
like oh you're taking something away from me and actually you think It's going to save you money. It's going to be healthier for you. It's going to be better for the environment as a kind of side benefit. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that, oh, you've got to choose the worthy thing. And I think when you sell it as a positive in other ways as well, I think it's more attractive to people. So I don't know, talking about driving
less, for example. If you can get on your bike or you can walk to your bus stop, you're going to have more fitness embedded in your daily routine and you're going to be healthier. Your blood pressure is going to go down probably and you're going to feel better. So doing things that are joyful and that make your life better now and hopefully are better for the planet too, are going to be much easier to sell to people, I
think. And we'll, finding ways to kind of build connection into those changes in terms of people connection, connection to nature, I think is much more viable in the long term, I think, in terms of what we can keep going. If I change a habit and I hook it onto another existing routine, it's going to be much easier to make that happen every day. If I do that and then make it something I really enjoy. I'm going to definitely want
to keep doing it. So I've had a streak of doing yoga every day for 120 days, which I'm really proud of. And I haven't missed a single day because I really love it and because I know it's good for me. So if we can think of it in terms of positive solutions rather than inhibiting people, I think it's just in terms of the framing of how we communicate things, having a better future.
is a very exciting thing. Having a greener, more sustainable supply chain, having better working rights, having less pollution, all of these things that come with net zero and with a better future, we're not going to regret doing that. Yes, exactly. I mean, that's a whole other conversation, isn't it? Better working practices, better, fairer wages. better working conditions, and it all has an impact, doesn't it? And it's all around
this climate conversation. But just going back to your own environment, because you live in one of the most beautiful parts of the country, and that's Devon. How has that impacted? How has living in that environment impacted your career and your writing? Because you mentioned earlier, make Sulcombe more plastic clever, and you launched that campaign with your daughter. And that was that was around plastic. So how has your own environment inspired you on this
journey? So I grew up in Landlocked Bedfordshire and ended up in Devon for six months and have been here more than 20 years. So I really have this strong appreciation of I realise I'm really lucky to be by the coast. I have a really, really strong connection with the sea. If I have to go away for work, I really miss it and I really
miss. seeing the horizon and just it keeps me really grounded and i see real value i know that there's real value in in having it there and i'm very lucky to have it because i love it so much i have this really strong urge to protect it which is why my daughter and i set up that campaign a few years ago called plastic clever sulkum we could see um so much plastic on the beaches as loads of people did around the country at the time but we live in a really like a tourist
hot spot and it felt like no one was really joining up what was happening on land to what was happening at sea. And so we tried to affect change, not by blaming anyone, not by telling people off, but by saying, look, we could do this. We were getting people involved. It was very much kind of grassroots, bottom -up approach, which really, really worked in our small town. And it had a really, really brilliant, long -lasting impact,
actually. And I'm really conscious of keeping that strong nature connection and ocean connection going with my two children so they they don't know any different they've grown up here they're very very lucky um but I want them to really appreciate it and to really care for it and and realize that it can it can bring so many benefits for our well -being as well as um yeah emotionally mental physical all of those things As well as we also have a duty to care for the patch of
land we live on and the patch of whether it's coastline or inland, wherever we have a duty of care and a responsibility to do something about it. And I try and really ingrain that in our lives. So, for example, before school, I take my son to the beach and he's super aware of the tides because sometimes there's no beach and sometimes there's a huge beach. And it's
just kind of embedded in his. in his knowing i suppose which i think is really really magical and i hope that stays with him for a long long time i go into schools um often enough to look at some of the projects that we work with and the children are incredibly optimistic and aware of their environment now i'm going to ask you this question because i do tend to ask us this question i think i probably know the answer um you've talked so much about solutions and being
positive So would you say you're an optimist or a pessimist? So I would say I'm a stubborn optimist. I don't think we've got it all sussed. I think we have got a very long way to go. But I use my frustration to, I kind of try and channel my frustration into motivation, basically, to kind of do something about it. So I'm not resting on my laurels. I don't think I can sit back and do nothing and wait for this all to happen and
sort itself out. We very much need to keep our foot on the pedal and keep working really hard to push for better and push for change. But I do feel optimistic generally. Super. So you're not sitting on your laurels, as you said. So you're a successful published author. You work for The Conversations as well. You're a writer. You've been a teacher. What next for your career? Where do your ambitions lie next? My ambition.
So at the moment, I am doing a fellowship with the Solutions Journalism Network and the European Journalism Centre. And it's all about shifting climate journalism across whole newsrooms. So my mission is for climate to not just be an environment story and for it to be on every page of our website, potentially in some form. So not necessarily
headline news, but for there to be. climate awareness in all that we do and so I'm working on various projects within this fellowship and I'm also part of the Reuters Institute run the Oxford Climate Journalism Network I'm also doing a fellowship with them at the moment and that is very much about really being at the front line of the latest knowledge about all this and thinking about how to amplify that how to how to bring that into all the work that we do so I really want to make
my climate journalism better but also to help other journalists make their climate journalism better. Ideally I'd love to come full circle and bring that back to the education stage in terms of empowering all young journalists and young communicators to have the confidence to do this more and to know what questions to ask. We don't need to know all the answers we just need to know which experts to ask and what to
ask them. But yeah, that's my vision for the future, for climate to not be an environment story, for it to be an everything story. Thank you. So we're really going to be following your progress and asking, the way you talk about media and the young journalists and asking those questions and being authentic about those questions as well. Yes. And really asking the difficult, the really difficult issues and keeping it in the
news. As you say, not necessarily the headline news, but a part of that conversation every day. So there is progress because we obviously need to make it. We've got some tough targets to meet, haven't we? So thank you very much to Anna. It's actually fascinating talking to you. It's been wonderful to have you as my guest today and for providing such insight. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge
of our time. today we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming today we must act for tomorrow adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments today we work for tomorrow's world please do Email us with your ideas. Email podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. We'd love to know what you think. Please do subscribe to our podcast channels. But I'd like to say
a huge thanks to our guest today. And that's Anna Turns for taking the time to speak to us. Thank you very much, Anna. Thank you for having me. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information about our work. And to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.