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Hey, what's up. You're in Minnesota.
I am in Minnesota. Where are you?
I'm in New York.
I'm in my cozy little studio here in you know, the Bloomberg Empire's headquarters. It's a nice little spot. So coming up, we're going to catch up with Jesse Jacobs. This is the guy you know better than I do. I know him by reputation. I'm psyched to talk to him because he's invested in a whole bunch of different things, but especially recently in youth sports, which I want to talk to you about. But before we do that, all right, a couple headlines caught my attention. One over the last
couple of weeks is our buddy Jerry Cardinal. He was a guest on the show. He's creating this new company that's basically going to invest in college sports.
What do you make of this?
Well, this reminds me, Jason, of the time before social media, right before Facebook, before Instagram. The world is about to change and is in a very fluid spot right now. That's why it's difficult to speak about this, and that's
why it's so interesting. But I think Jerry Cardinal has proven over the last two and a half three decades that he's always one step ahead of the curve, and in many ways, what he's doing today I think is a preview of what we may see in four or five years, which is is Duke basketball owned by Blackstone, Is Michigan Football owned by KKR? I think is going there faster than people think.
Yeah, So it's funny.
I dug into this a little bit just because I always want to understand as you do, what Jerry's doing. So as I understand it, He's created this company. It's a partnership that is basically going to loan money to
college athletic departments. We're talking like fifty million to two hundred million dollars, and essentially they're learning the money to build out these organizations to take advantage of all these new name, image and likeness opportunities, other media related and commercially related opportunities, and of course the upside for them is a cut of future earnings.
I started thinking.
About, like, well, why would they do this, and it's exactly for the reasons that you described. The other thing that struck me, and this came up in our conversation with Jerry, they did legends, they did on location. These are live experience businesses. At the end of the day, college athletics are live experiences business.
So when I.
Started to look at it from that perspective, it makes a ton of sense because these games and I'm thinking about you going to visit your daughter at the big House at University of Michigan. I mean, think about all the money flowing around a University of Michigan football game.
Yeah.
And also, don't forget the S network for Jerry Carnell, who you started that with, Yes, you know two thousand and one four George Steinberunner's partnership of Cannas Saxo when he was just thirty three years old. Look, I think this world of college is so interesting and we should all keep an eye on it because it's one of the most ever changing.
Business models that there is.
I mean, you've gone from take Michigan football, you mentioned it. It went from a very simple model of big revenue, low expenses. You take care of the head coach, you take care of your coaches, and after that you have the regular administration. Right today, you have bigger revenues and growing tremendously because of the TV contracts, and now you have to run a.
Mini semi protein.
Now you have to care players, You need to institutionalize, you need to bring more a business people, M and A people, and this is something that universities are not quite equipped today. So I like what Jerry's doing because through Debt with a Kiss on top, when you say you get a little bit of the upside, I call it the side door. But I think the debt side is the most coacher side and the easiest side to approve because you keep the institutions in control.
Okay, I'm going to say it. This is one of my favorite phrases. It's ever been undered on our show, Debt with a Kiss on Top. I mean, that's fantastic. I don't feel like I'm going to use that like later today. All Right, we got to talk about U sports because it's going to be a big part of our conversation with Jesse Jacobs. I've been dying to ask you this because you came up through youth sports in a very meaningful way. I know you have a couple
deafews who played baseball coming up. I've been a parent of a kid who went through the club system for lacrosse, and now I was playing in college. When I say youth sports to you, what do you think about? Well, I think about the craziness of parents.
And of course I'm in South Florida, Jason, where every kid thinks he's going to be the next Rothfaeld Palmero or Derek Jeter or a Rod or whatever. It's a business that is very, very sticky. The reason why is, look, every time you look up, there's a new three hundred million dollar contract, two hundred and fifty million dollar contract being signed, and is irrational. For this reason, parents will do what they can't afford to send their kids to
travel to pay for a five hundred dollar bat. I mean, my mother's a perfect example. We couldn't afford barely to eat steak, but she put all her money together to send me to summer camp or to buy me a bat.
So I think as a growing business.
And I love with Josh and Blitz are doing Josh Harris and Blitzer are doing David Blitzer and now with Jesse.
I think it has a huge, huge upside.
Yeah, I mean I think about this all the time, in part because I grew up as a kid, I played a little bit of travel baseball, a little bit of travel soccer.
Fast forward to being a parent.
These are empires that are being built to really meet the demand, which is seemingly insatiable. One of the things I really wanted to talk to Jesse about is this idea of you have to think about the economics on the part of the individuals, because, as you said, parents are willing to spend almost anything, but there are a lot of parents and a lot of families, as we know,
who just simply can't afford it. And you really don't at least, I don't want a system where the only people who can ultimately play professionally or even at the college level are those who can afford, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a year to play club baseball, or to go to the showcases or go to the tournaments. I mean, it's a mitigating that has to be addressed. I'm interested to see what Unrival is doing about this.
And yet the capitalist in me looks at this and says, it's a highly fractured market, as we've agreed, and I'm one of those parents willing to spend a lot of money to help their kids live out a dream. And so there's a hell of a lot of money to be made. So you can see the investment case easily.
Yes, the investment case. You can talk about it in spades. But I'll share one story with you, Jason. I know a family in South Florida. There is about fifteen years ago, the mother sold her car. She now takes the bus to work. She mortgaged her house three times. And this is all to give her son an opportunity to go to college and be the next professional star. And you have to watch that a little bit. We have to take care of families like that.
Now.
Of course, you and I we can afford to send our kids, you know, to camp and they can do all of that.
But I know my mother couldn't do that. So I was a scholarship kid.
Yeah, so obviously the business is great, but from a scholarship point of view, what are you doing for those families that cannot afford? And also you want to protect them from themselves that in order to chase this dream, they're not going to file bankruptcy.
Yeah, I mean, and the reality is, and you know this well from your own experience and also through family and things like that. The actual number of scholarships for baseball, lacrosse, football, basketball are very very small. I mean, the top of the funnel is massive. The bottom of that funnel in terms of the money that's actually given to people in order to get a full fledged education, especially a full.
Ride, those are tiny. I mean.
And then of course, like to make it in the professional it's like a fraction of a fraction of a fraction.
Anyway, I'm probably rolling on this more than I should, but.
No, Jason, and listen, I'm very passionate about this too.
And the deal is that you know, if you look at the data, and the data is very open and very transparent, probably one out of very thousand make it.
So you have to go in with eyes wide open.
And I rather than say it is not an investment, I rather than say I want to give my son or my daughter are the best opportunity to advance their career as far as possible. Now that's a little bit more accurate, but the blind spot to think this is an investment for the future, chances are that is not going to pay off.
So as long as they know that, that's important.
Looking forward to our conversation coming up with Jesse Jacobs.
Welcome back to the Deal.
I'm Jason Kelly here with my co host Alex Rodriguez. So this week we're talking to Jesse Jacobs. He co founded a firm called TCG, the Churnin Group. It's an investment firm that builds consumer and media businesses and some of the deals you have definitely heard of Barstool, the Professional Lacrosse League, and one recent one unrivaled Sports, a deal they just went into with Josh Harris and David Blitzer. Jesse, really good to have you with.
Us, Jason, Alex thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me, big fan of its show.
All right, so Jesse, make all our guests do this. So introduce yourself because we always want to hear like how people sort of present themselves to the world.
Actually have two jobs. So one job, I'm a founding partner of the Churning Group. Churning Group is a growth equity, private equity firm that invests in sports, media, content, consumer two partners. We run about three billion dollars of capital run our third fund. Majority or most of what we do is in sports, not one hundred percent. I'm happy to go through that. We've been doing that for about
fourteen years completely separately. I'm a principal and main owner of a film and TV production company called North Road. We're one of the largest producers of movies, TV shows, reality shows, and we do probably more sports docs sports content than any production company and studio out there. Based in Los Angeles, currently in New York and huge sports fan. So that's me, big sadly a big Met fan.
But we're doing all right this yere.
So, yeah, you're a good company of like sad Met fans. I feel like that's a badge of honor at this point now. So Jesse, you know, one of the things that jumps out to me, just to play a little bit of this is your Life, is you're an English major, which I love. I was an English major as well, so like, how do you find your way into the sort of media business world.
Yeah. So when I found out that I could actually go to college and read books and graduate, I was. I signed up for that. At University of Pennsylvania, I was an English and communications major, loved sports, just wanted to be in the sports industry. And when I was in college between my freshmen and sophomore year, Fox Sports got the rights to televise the NFL from a from CBS, and in between my freshman sophomore year, I flew out to LA got a job as an intern. It's like
the third person in that office. And saw them build that over the summer, and when I went back to Philadelphia, they were like, hey, by the way, when we filmed games in Philadelphia and New York and Washington, we need people to sit and truck and keep track of you know how many times Emmitt Smith has run to the left in the center and the right. So John Madden can say that, or we need to when they start.
When they picked up baseball, we need somebody in the truck to basically say, all right, Alex Rodriguez went from first to third after the guy back of them, you know, hit a single. And so I did that for four years and realized the more successful you get in sports TV production, if you're really successful, you work in Thanksgiving football, you're working Christmas basketball, you work in New Year's college football,
you know. And I saw the lives very successful. It's just not I didn't want to be every weekend on the road, every holiday on the road, and then ended up going to business school, ended up at Goldman Sachs doing investing, investment banking, all in sports and media, and then left to start these two firms with Peter about fourteen years ago. And Peter had been the CEO and chairman Peter Churnman of Fox and News Corp. For many years.
Yeah, Jesse's interesting you mentioned about once you found out about reading books and then you were excited about college. When I found out you had to read books, I passed the college, I went to the pro.
So that explains it. Okay, I'm talking with two.
Really smart people here, but you know of your impressive resume. You know, we've become buddies over the years, and I was selling Jason before you jumped on that you're one of the most talented people that I've ever come across. And it's not just because your high IQ, but your equ is also very strong. But I've always read just someone who has a great nose for great talent and deal flow. Where did you learn that from and what attributes do you think you know is the biggest payoff.
For you there?
Thank you for saying that. I mean to me, it's all intuition and psychology, you know, we're going through this right now. With there's a company, a's a person who runs it very successful. They own one hundred percent of it. And you can look at the numbers and you look in the business plan, you know, and at the end of the day, that's going to get you so far.
But ultimately, can you work with that person do they have what it takes to win when you're alone with them and ask them questions about psychologically, how does this process feel to you? Are you excited about it, you're nervous about it? Are you selling me in this process? Or are you completely transparent and open about And I think you just learn those reps just through human intuition and also communication. Ultimately, ninety five percent of everybody's job,
maybe not athletes. I don't know. Is storytelling, which is sure, it's when we're sitting down and saying and you know this, Alex very well from all the successful businesses you've been in. But if you get someone to invest with you, you are showing them numbers, but you are telling them a story. Right, If you are trying to convince somebody to take your money to invest in them, you are telling them a story. Our entire job is storytelling.
So take us back to twenty ten, because you know you mentioned Peter Turnant like unbelievable career works for Ruper Murdoch. You guys sort of strike out on your own, you know, three of you to sort of do this, and there are some interesting choices you make, one of which is you're going to create this holding company that kind of takes away some of the traditional, candidly like barriers and
obstacles that you would face as an investor. So talk to us about some of those key decision because it feels like it leads you towards maybe different investments then you would have otherwise pursued.
Yeah, I think there were two things that we thought about. One was structuring ourselves as a holding company not a fund, which may seem like a technical point. I think as a fund, you raise money from a lot of different investors, you have to invest it over a specific period of time, and you have to exit over a specific period of time. We wanted way more flexibility. Most funds are investing between
ten and twenty companies in one fund. If we just wanted to do four investments, if we wanted to hold on to something longer, if we didn't want to have to exit something if we wanted to put forty percent of our capital into one business. Those were things we felt were important. The second thing is we said to ourselves, you've got the big private equity firms Blackstone, kkar Apollo, Carlisle, Goldman, Sachs's investment business. We're never going to compete with them
on capital never. Then you have the early stage investors Benchmarin, Sequoia, Excel. We're probably never going to compete with them in terms of being great venture cat they're exceptionally what they do. There is this lane, and I think we've done a decent job of carving that lane out where you have a mid sized company. They're too small for Blackstone, they require way too much work and way too much involvement for a traditional venture capital firm, and they need somebody
who operationally can help them. You know, we get asked all the time, who are competitors. I just don't know anybody else who's going to walk into Dave Portnoy and say, all right, Dave, like we'll buy fifty one percent of your business and do a lot of the work to serve you. In terms of hiring a CEO, hiring a management team, moving to the whole office to New York, supporting your vision, et cetera. And that's what we've done repeatedly.
And it's just a lane that no one else seems, very few others seem to play in.
I mean, the other thing, key decision, it feels like you make. We all have a lot of friends in the private equity world that like they sort of say they're going to do It's like, no, no, no, we're investing in people, We're gonna do this. But like at the end of the day, because of all those things that you said, because like the fund has a life, you know, they've got a lot of investors to answer to, they've
got a certain structure. They may want to do that even but they're not really able to do You think that's a fair comparison.
Yes, with Dave we Hada deal, we're never get involved in this creative. With Reese Witherspoon, we built Hella Sunshine with and for her. Ultimately she sold that to Blackstone, never going to get involved in the creative. We're the only outset investor in Peyton Manning's business, never going to get involved in the creative. Were the only outsid investor in Questlove's business. Never get involved, and it's just we're dead. The minute we say you know what, I actually think
you shouldn't have said that. You know, individual abarc it's over.
So how do you pick those people?
Well, I think that there are three things. One is, it has to be a person who has a passionate audience. The first time we saw the Google analytics for Dave Portnoye, we fell for chair. You know, when we looked at Reese Witherspoon's instagram, we fell off the chair. That's one piece of it. The second piece of it is it's to be that person's idea. So it was b Reese's idea,
it was Peyton's idea, it's Dave's idea. It's not their agent, their manager, the representatives saying, hmm, there's a big opportunity in tequila. I think you represent that lifestyle. Why don't you do it? Tequila brand's got to be that person's idea. And the third thing, and this might be the biggest, that person has to show up. The first time somebody called us about Reese said hey, b Reese has this idea, and we said, okay, Like I've seen this before, you know,
is she into it? Seven am? Breakfast the next day Porten I did one hundred percent the negotiations. Peyton Manning, you know, shows up is their texts, email, is on Instagram late at night. They're all looking for what influencers are out there. They have to show up themselves. And I think those three things have been the recipe for what works.
You know, Jesse, when you talk about sort of the competitive landscape, but I'd sort of think back to even you describing how you start your careers sitting in trucks and counting stats and things like that, and it takes me to the present day in the media world, and specifically the sports media world. You know, we're looking at an NBA right steal that's being negotiated. We've seen all these records, you know, being broken over and over again.
We were talking Alex and I earlier about what's going on in the college sports landscape. As you think about the sports media landscape at this point, how do you characterize it at this point and what should we be looking for sort of around the corner.
If you're a league or a team, the thing you want always want is however many bidding packages you have to sell. You want one at least one more buyer. Yeah, and the NBA has that right now, you know. And I think the challenge and the concern with some of these leagues that have sold so many different packages so many different places, is some of those buyers may go away soon. So will CBS still be there where there'll
still be for broadcast owts. I don't know. That's an interesting thing, and I think it was brilliant for some of these leagues to put in these long term deals so they have that guaranteed money for a period of time. The second thing is I think the college landscape is most ripe for disruption. I mean, it is complete chaos right now, complete and we're deep into it in a variety of different ways.
The schools are.
Paying for players, the conferences are playing for players, the sponsors are paying for players, the alum are paying for players. All of a sudden, you go from one year to this school, then you go to that school the next year. It's chaos and that has got to change. So I think the biggest opportunity in sports media, I believe, just given the appeal of college football and how disruptive that the whole space is in college.
So Jesse.
You know, in twenty fifteen, the last two or three years of my career, I joined Fox and Eric Shanks brought me in and John nt The one regret that I said, I said, boy, I wish I would have done this rookie year to really understand the landscape of media, that they're not my enemies, that they're a bridge to the consumer. And in New York I kind of played everything very tight. Going back to your career, you started
Fox and CBS. How do you think working with people like Shanks, John Madden, how has that shaped and helped your career over the last few decades.
Yeah, I think Fox in particular, there was something fascinating about them, where look, the CBS, ABC and NBC had football for however many years, right, and they said, you know what, actually I don't know where the first down line is. It's a little bit hard to see. Why don't we put a yellow line? Can we actually put the microphones closer to the field that make them louder?
Can we?
Actually? They were, by the way, the first one to do the Fox box in baseball, which is like where's the runner going right?
And that was David Hill, right, David Hill totally.
David Hill had Jerry Glanville, I remember, you know, they just were like, we're gonna turn it more into entertainment, right, and they changed directly. TV changed, you know, in many ways when they get out of market. Games and technology has always changed the viewing experience. I do think the one thing I would say about the NBA, I think oddly baseball has done a decent job. That's recently with miking the players. I think if you look at some
of the broadcasts, the quality has better. I think the NBA has a long way to go on changing how it looks and feels when you watch a game, it doesn't look nearly as different as to ten or twenty years ago. That's a sport in particular, where I think that they could increase the production value. They've done a decent job with putting the microphones in the huddle. I think that helps look. People are looking for something new and fresh and loud and energetic. They're looking for technology
to be integrated. They're looking for personalities, and I think Fox what it taught me at least was you know that that stuff matters, and we'll get an audience.
Okay, so let's talk a little youth sports if we can. It's something Alex and I talk about all the time. He obviously came up through the system as it was as a amateur and then professional athlete. I actually am heart of a college athlete, so I experienced the whole club world. And we know Josh Harris and David Blitzer really well what they've done with Unrivaled and getting together with Cal Ripkin and his brother Billy Ripkin to form
this company. You guys come into Unrivaled as a big investor. Tell us about how that came about and how you go about assessing something like that.
Yeah, we've had two themes. We're very theme driven in how we go about investing. And by that, I mean we say, you know, eight years ago we said sports gambling. Seven years ago we said podcasts. A couple of years ago we said, there are two main themes that we're interested in. One is you sports. The other happened to be sort of European soccer, and that led to an
investment as well. And here's what we do. We assign a team, multiple different people, and that team's job is to go out there and fund every youth sports company in the United States of America, within every sport, within every part of the value chain, and then over time you start to winnow down you're like, you know, I think this part of the value chain is interesting. This part isn't interesting, Like we concluded. You look at baseball as an example, the little league level really hard to
enter into. It's nonprofit, it's mom and pop really hard to enter into. You know, you look at don't should we get into the business of making bats and balls? Really hard to get into that business. You look at premium experiences and you're like, I have sadly a stratification of wealth in the world that creates a class of people who have increasing amounts of discretionary income who also want whatever that they could do to enable their child's
progression academically, athletically, etc. And are looking for premium experiences. Look, Josh and David are the two best or two other best you know, investors and people out there to partner with. And they had one asset which was incredible, which is within baseball. Two assets within baseball, Cooperstown All Star Village taking place right now by the way, you know, thousands of kids over the summer having a great experience. And
they had these cow Ripken weekend tournaments. Yeah, by the way, not in New York and Baltimore, in LA and Philly, in Pigeon Forge, in Aberdeen, you know, all around the and people go and they get to like play baseball in a field that looks like Fenway or Wrigley. Unbelievable experiences. We known them, they believe, I think, I mean, you should ask them that there was value that we could provide on the media content management side of it. And we came in and bought a third of it. We're
all equal partners. It's a great business in and of itself, and I think there's a huge opportunity to grow the baseball business. But beyond that, take football. We just bought seven football fields right next to Canton, Ohio. There is no equivalent of the Cooperstown All Star Village experience for football, you know, and the plan is on those seven football fields. Why can't over the summer, whether it's flag football or seven on seven for girls and boys, have a similar
type of experience. There should be a similar type of experience in all sports. And kids aren't going to stop playing sports. Parents are not going to stop spending money to enhance and enable their kids. And I think it's just the single most exciting opportunity in sports today for us is the use sports.
So Jesse, when I think about my real estate business, I've been doing it for over twenty years.
We do two things.
We buy, we fix, we refine, or we buy we fix it sell. So naturally for you guys, you know you're in the business of RIRI and return capital to your LPs. When you think about the next steps, two questions. One do you ever see a world where you can get the leagues to partner with you as they can control the next generation of great athletes? And two, what is a possible exit if it is not the league's is it going public?
Is it a blackstone? How do you look at that?
Yeah, so one hundred percent on the leagues. I mean, you know, the NFL currently has a flag football program. You know, the NBA does a lot in use sports. The basketball youth ecosystem is interesting because it's got very complicated, it's effectively professional. You know, minor leagues with AAU. The leagues being part of this would be great. Every league being part of each of these things would be phenomenal.
So that's your answer that we haven't done a deal today that has gotten as much positive where the inbounds afterward from investors, strategics, individuals, people, leagues has been as positives in terms of people being interested in co investing. So I think whoever ends up buying it, I think that the way we have to think about is let's build a great business and the rest will take care of itself.
You know.
I think if you start thinking of trying to engineer the exit multiple years in events, you'll end up screwing up. Just build a great business, and great businesses end up working out and Jesse.
One of the things that Alex and I have talked a lot about was this notion of, yes, you have this strata that we're fortunate to be a part of that can afford you know a lot of these club teams and travel teams.
And all that different things. How do you create.
These businesses and grew these businesses so that you can widen the access and widen the aperture so that you know, more people can take part of this. I take your point about like local fundraisers and things like that, but like, is there a mechanism by which these can be a little more accessible as these sports get bigger and bigger.
One. I mean, I actually a different way to answer that question. I've thought about, like what should be done to fix baseball? Yeah, you know what I would do to I mean there's a lot I have a lot of use on how to fix baseball.
Tell us tell us.
One is, each team should commit thirty million bucks. I don't know, thirty five million bucks, which, by the way, you do the math on that and you quickly get to a billion dollars capital. Right, it doesn't have to be all front to build the most state of the art baseball fields in inner cities across the country. Put
coaches there, put you know, ex players there. But you know what I also you should do there, have after school programs, so you know, moms and dads and single moms who are working who can't pick up their kids, send them to that place, do their homework, and get them food. Like you want to get a younger generation that's more diverse in America back into baseball, have their mom say, you know what you're doing after school today?
You're going there and you're playing for three hours and you're going to those types.
Of things.
All right.
So we literally could talk to you all day, but we want to be conscious of your time. We do like to do a little rapid fire with all of our guests, Jesse. So all we say is keep it tight. What's the best piece of advice you've received on deal making or business?
Be honest, what's the best deal you've ever worked on?
Barstool?
What's the deal you wish you'd been a part of.
How long do we have? God, that's a good question. I think any of those NBA teams that were bought when Blitz bought the Sixers and that sort of wave, that wave which just I remember, by the way, as I coled me, we were selling the we we're in an arbitrator on a deal where the Atlanta Hawks owners were Yeah. I mean that was like they couldn't give
the franchise away. I'll tell you the other deal. In twenty thirteen, we came this close to buying Hulu for a billion three wow, which, yeah, that one would have been good.
So, Jesse, what's your walk up or hype song before a big meeting or a big negotiation?
Oh?
God, you know, the honest to god truth is, I don't have one, but it probably would be white noise. Okay, it would just be white noise, just to block it all out, just to block it all out.
Yeah, all right.
So what's one mistake that everyone should avoid in negotiations?
And I learned this the hard way many times. But when you're in a negotiation and somebody proposes something to you and you know there's a list of things that they're going to go through, just wait until you hear everything on because if you respond to that one thing, you may be prepared to give that thing up. But wait until you see what the full thing is, so you can go back and the thing you were prepared to give up when you've done it in totality, seems like more of a concession than it does.
In the moment.
Oh that's good. That's really good. That's really good, Alex. Anything else for our friend.
Well, I just want to give Jesse a compliment because I said what I meant both before he jumped on and when he was on. I think Jesse's a type of investor that is not all or nothing. I do think that he thinks about the other side. He thinks about the long term partnership, and he also is willing to leave a little bit on the table, and I can't say that for every investor. And Jesse, as far as white noise, try playing in New York for fifteen years, you get planning.
Yeah, all right, Jesse, thank you so much, Thank you, Jesse. It's really fun saying.
All right, all right, take care of cheers.
The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and me Jason Kelly. This episode was made by Victor eveyas Stacey Wong, Annamasarakus, and Lizzie Phillip Arth. The music was made by Blake Maples, Brendan Francis. Neonham is our executive producer. Sage Fauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Additional support from Kelly Lafarier, Ashley Honig, Rachel Scaramzzino, and Elena Los Angeles. If you have a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show. It'll help other listeners find us.
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