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Hi everyone, welcome to the deal with Alex Rodriguez and me Jason Kelly. We're going to chop it up today talk about a lot of what's going on here at the intersection of business, sports and culture. Alex, We're going to dig into data, talk about how it has transformed the business of sports, what happens next, especially when it comes to fast growing leagues like the WNBA, the NWSL. And we're going to be joined by Jess Gelman.
You know her.
She's the CEO of Kager. She's worked very closely with the Craft family. It's going to be an awesome conversation.
I really like her.
She's a powerhouse, and I'm really excited about our listeners to get to know her a little bit. I have a personal relationship with her and her company with the Timberwolves, She's done great work for us. We'll talk a little bit about that, but she is really one of the the most progressive CEOs out there that I think is going to be up to really big things.
Excited to really get into all of that with her. Before we do that, though, I gotta seize this opportunity, man, because It is just an incredible time that we're living in in so far as the world of baseball and where you were recently in rick Wood. It was going to be something special no matter what. This was a celebration of the Negro League, which thankfully and belatedly we are reconsidering and really integrating, as it were, into the
history of baseball. But Willie Mays passed away. He was meant to be there, he said on Monday he wasn't coming, and on Tuesday he passed away, and what was meant to be one thing turned into something entirely new.
You were there, Take us there, Tell me what it was like.
I mean it was I would say a very somber celebration that say, hey, kid lived to ninety three years young and he lived a full life. I covered it with Fox was there for a few days. If you think about it, just for our listeners, this is the oldest stadium ballpark in the United States. And it was such a great night. It was so emotional to pay tribute to the Negro League on a national stage with so many players just really sacrificed paved the way not
only for African Americans, but all people of color. To have this great opportunity to play like we did.
I was watching on TV, as were millions of other people. What were people talking about behind the scenes.
I think just gratitude, And I think everybody recognized the impact of rickwood Field, the impact of the late Willie Mays. What he meant. You got to remember taking our listeners to the late nineteen forties, early nineteen fifties. You know what made Michael Jordan even that much greater was he was pre social media. Well, Willie Mays was pre television, and he was like a myth. You couldn't see him, but you can only hear him. And he played in the most popular sport and he was the biggest star.
He's Muhammad Ali in the ring. Is Michael Jordan on the court and the impact he made in this world. There's so many people to me, including my father that said, Alex, the reason why I love baseball is two players, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays.
Wow.
So another player that you got a chance to spend some time with, and candidly, fortunately for us, you got to spend some time with him on air. Is a moment that went completely viral. You talking to Reggie Jackson. You asked him a question and he talked about his experience as a man of color, as an African American player coming up.
It was unbelievably powerful.
Coming back here is not easy. The racism that I played here when I played here, the difficulty going through different places where we traveled. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
What was it like sitting there? Jas.
I'm glad you said that, because it's one of the most powerful moments I've seen on television. It was the last question I asked it. I talked about how does it feel to come back to Rickwood? And he came out and gave one of the most elegant, heartfelt sincere answers where the N word was mentioned three or four times,
and we were just like, good for you, Reggie. The response was overwhelming, and Jeter, myself and Poppy, we were there talking to ourselves and we were saying offline, I cannot believe how bad they had it, and how fortunate we are and how grateful we are to be in a situation where so many greats, truly giants, paved the way for all of us people of color.
What I heard from Reggie and clearly. I say this as a you know, white guy who has no experience like his or kindidly like yours. It was a really sharp reminder that awful things were perpetrated on these players. And it wasn't that long ago. Man, It was like
during our lifetime. What was it like for you, again, as someone who is incredibly successful in this sport, a man of color who elevated the game, what was it like for you to go back, especially in the context of Willie Mays and Reggie Jackson and others who were there both physically and in spirit.
You know, Hayse posed a game of schedules, and that one when it came out early in the schedule, I circled that one. I was really excited to go back. What shocked me was how emotional it was. We had some fun, and some of those moments went viral too.
Yeah, all right, well, this is what they call in the business a hard pivot. We're gonna talk about analytics, but we will go back to your playing days on this, because you know, you came up as all this was kind of breaking out. You know, Moneyball comes on the scene, and now obviously you're experiencing it as a team owner, take me back to your playing days, like, what was it like as analytics comes to the four?
What did you see?
You know?
I find it funny Billy Bean, who's a good buddy who obviously was played by Brad Pitt on Moneyball. I find it funny that everyone thinks that was like the first inning of analytics, which which it wasn't. It was probably somewhere in the top of the third with a lot of his big days in front of it. But if you think about Tony Russa, if you think about Lupinella, Billy Martin, They've been using numbers forever and it was
just done a little bit differently. I remember when I played in Seattle and I would come home, I would rewatch the games and I would literally chart. If I was facing Jason, I would chart you because I was going to see you the next week, and I would just prep I will see your tendencies numbers. I always wanted to see what is Jason Kelly throw when it three two bases loaded at Fenway Park right, and a lot of times there will be an anomaly out there
be like eighty two percent change up. That's what Jamie Moyer used to do, so you had to work a little bit. It wasn't readily as available. You didn't have armies of front offices that look more like Hetch funds and private equity than a baseball team front office. But it's been there a long time and it has been very helpful.
And it obviously it's become an industry in and of itself. And that's what we're going to talk to Jess Gelman about. I have to ask you, as a team owner in a different sport, how does it manifest in the NBA in basketball, and how have you learned sort of the different tricks of the trade there.
Yeah, we say we use it as a guide, not a gospel.
And it's important to look at numbers studium, but everybody has the same numbers. Everyone has really smart front offices. It's what you do with those numbers and you know, getting them in the context of what's relevant of what you're trying to solve for. I think sometimes people go overboard and they only look at the numbers, but you
got to look at both. And I think you probably want to land somewhere on seventy percent numbers and thirty percent feel and trust in the eyes and pattern recognition. That's why it's so important to have people in your dugout in baseball with experience that can help you out put these numbers together.
All right, coming up, jess Gelman. We're excited to talk to her.
All right, Joining us now, Jessica Gelman. She's the CEO of Caeger stands for the Craft Analytics Group for those of you who don't know. She's the co founder co chair of the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference. That is the place where everybody gathers every year to talk about all things sports business technology. She's a minority owner of the Utah Royals and WSL team. She played some hoops. She's from Chicago. She is high up on Alex Rodriguez's
list of the smartest peace in the business. And we're a psyched to have you here. Thank you for joining us.
I'm a huge fan of the show. I learned something every time I listened to it. It is part of the Cager culture too. We all listen to it and you guys do a fantastic job.
So I'm really honored to join.
So Alex, talk to me about jess in front of her, because like, this is someone you've been a huge proponent en of How did do you remember?
How you guys met?
I was really leaning in my friends Robert Craft and Jonathan who are as smartest as they come, and they're so generous with their time and sharing best practices. And part of what Robert does so well is he mentors so many people and I consider myself lucky to be that. And he kept talking about, you got to meet Jessica.
You got to meet Jessica. She's incredible. We kind of hit it off completely, and once I got to know her a little bit better, when the Timbolves opportunity came up, I said, jess you got to help us with the Timberwolves, And I got to tell you working with Jessica firsthand, I can tell you what an incredible partner she's been, how much value she's brought us, And quite honestly, Jessica and Keega were a big part of our nice long run to the Western Conference finals this year for the tim Wolves.
Oh there you go. Like the results that speak for themselves. So let's not get too far away from the Crafts. Jess like tell us about linking up with Bob Craft and Jonathan crafton sort of how that kind of manifested and accelerated into this business today.
Sure, so I think just as a starting point where analytics and where sports is today is not where it was when I was interested in kind of going into sports coming out of business school in two thousand and two. It actually wasn't like a thing, but I was one of those people who was really focused on it, in
part because of my experiences growing up. We didn't go to a lot of sporting events as a family, but it was such a highlight of my experiences and also honestly, seeing the athletes inspired me to try and do and be more, and I just thought it'd be really fun to be on the other side of helping to create those memories. And so when I applied to Harvard Business School,
it was with a focus on going into sports. And lucky for me, Jillett Stadium was opening or about to open the year that I was graduating from business school, and we did a project during my second year at HBS, and we were selected to help with how to maximize this asset of Jellette Stadium, which obviously the Crafts had invested a tremendous amount into on non game days and So we did our project about three weeks before the final presentation, about three weeks before I graduated, and they
asked if they could help open any doors in sports. I said, okay, I should probably follow up on this one, and they ultimately created.
A role for me.
You're like, there's a door and it's in your office.
Yeah, exactly, here I am.
But you know, at the beginning it was it was really kind of like an internal consultant.
And so, you know, Jess, I have to say, analytics sort of comes up. I am taken to the movie Moneyball. Obviously read the book, but when it comes onto the screen and there's that great moment where Jonah Hill and Brad Pitt are, you know, sitting in the room and they're with all the old sort of crusty scouts and they're essentially like, who's this guy?
Who's that?
That's Pete?
Does Pete really need to be here?
Yes?
He does.
When you started to sort of bring this data, did you have sort of like a Jonah Hill moment where they're like, who's this?
Like what is she talking about?
Yeah?
So in two thousand and nine, the Patriots had had a couple of years that weren't as good relatively speaking, we had seen some drops in season ticket member retention, and at this point in time, I was overseeing our market research and a lot of what I would call today is performance marketing, which is like you reach customers
with the right message at the right time. But there wasn't a ton of data, and so there was a group of executives in a room trying to talk about what were we going to do to make the season ticket members feel more valued, trying to understand what their pain points were, and so we're all going around the room and I raised my hand, and I was junior within the organization at this time, and I shared that the feedback from our customers suggested that the gate entry
was a real problem. And if you have ever been down to Jilt Stadium, it's not a problem today, but at the time, the process of scanning and being padded down and all of those challenges made it a long process. And the person who oversaw the gates was a Green Beret security officer and really literally took my head off
in the meeting, and it was intimidating for sure. And this is I think one of the key things about the value of analytics is that I said, listen, this is not my opinion of what the pain points are.
This is the feedback from our customers.
We can look at the data and see how long they're in line, if they're getting into the game after the kickoff. And that was again especially as a woman, like very critical for kind of saying it's not my opinion, it's broader than that, and it's actually an overarching experience that our fans are having that we should be paying attention to.
Yeah, so, Jess, I like that.
And you know, you get brought in Caeger to bring value at revenue unlock perhaps revenue where owners and management are.
Not necessarily looking.
What would you say are two or three of the most common mistakes that you see from front offices and owners in sports.
It's a great question.
I mean, the most specific is listening and understanding who your customers actually are. And that's the premise of everything that we do with Cager.
It's who are they?
And analytics is like it can be a scary term to people, so I always like to demystify it a little bit. So you know, there's descriptive analytics, there's predictive analytics, and then there's prescriptive. So I'll put this in like season ticket member talk for you. Descriptive analytics would be as simple as who are your season ticket members, what is their tenure, where are they sitting in the venue, And that's super helpful to understand kind of what they're doing, even their retention.
Predictive analytics is based on.
The behaviors that you might be capturing about those customers. What is their likelihood to remain a season ticket member, likelihood to be spending more with you, likelihood to maybe need to be downgraded. And the prescriptive part is how are you going to take this information and change or give the customer.
What they want.
That component impacts everything. It impacts what are the products that you have within your venue. I mean, Alex, a lot.
Of the things that I've seen you drive is around.
Creating more premium experiences for some of your customers, but also meeting the average fan who maybe couldn't otherwise attend. And that's a lot of the work that we've helped drive. So that is critical the understanding of the customers.
But then it's more thinking broader.
Who's the customer going to be and what does that mean in terms of the broader offerings that you could potentially have for those fans. So here at Patriot Place, it wasn't just what is game day like?
It's what is non game day like?
And I give so much credit to the Crafts, both Robert and Jonathan for trying to understand that three sixty five view of who the fans are. So the key things are understanding your customers and then reaching your customer through the right channel at the right time with the right product. It sounds like it's really easy, but it's really hard mm hm.
When you have a winning team or when you have an alpha like a Tom Brady. Obviously the combination is letho and we've seen the Patriots results. But which one would you say is more important? And how do you deal when you have an alpha, a goat like a Tom Brady?
How do you capitalize that?
Again, I would give the craft so much credit for their perspective. What we will often see is that teams that are very successful, it's easy to sell tickets when
you're good. It's hard to make the investments and build the foundation, like investing in a data warehouse, like providing the right training facilities, get the players to come so the continuous investment to improve the underlying fan experience or improve the underlying player experience is so very critical, and preparing for that time is hard because it's really easy to just say we're going to increase ticket prices and it looks like the business is getting better. It's hard
to drive customer acquisition or fan acquisition. And I think the same holds true, you know, on the sporting.
Side, And so what about that sort of human element, because what we love about sports is ultimately these are human beings on the field, on the court, on the pitch, what have you. On the golf course, we just saw roy alckle Roy like miss a couple putts that you know, change the course of you know, certainly his personal golf history. How do you sort of weave humanity in? Knowing that the human element is so critical in sports, I would.
Say early in the two thousands, when we were kind of just starting, it was all focused on what the consumers told you. Now there's if you guys don't know the amount of data available doubles every two years, So how do you take that information right?
How do you take that information to enhance the fan experience? And that's pretty powerful.
You know, the data can be tricky though, Like let me give you like an example as like a former basketball player with specifics to how people are talking about Caitlin Clark right now. So one of the things that I see is that people are saying she's not performing at the level that people had anticipated that she would perform at. And I would say that's ridiculous. She is the number one focus for the defense on every other team. To be a rookie with that kind of responsibility is significant.
You look at people will say that the only other player of the year and rookie of the year was Candice Parker.
Well, she was playing with Lisa Leslie.
Right, And so I think that we have to take any of the data or that humanization of things, and we have to have the broader context of what is happening. And you know, in some cases it's fandom and you've played the sport. And I think as we have more and more data available that will increase.
I want other idea.
Can I share this idea that I'm really passionate about And Alex, I'm kind.
Of dying to get your perspective on this one. So one of my.
Passions is like understanding who's going to perform well in pressure situations. I studied it in college. I want to know if you can figure this out. I've had a lot of conversations with Daryl Morey, who I co founded the mitslow on Sports Analytics conference with.
We talk about it a lot.
I think potentially with AI and the ability to potentially look at a player and their facial expressions and the ability to read what they're seeing or feeling, that there could be for the fan they could say, if they're viewing that and you have that.
Here's who I think you should give it to.
That's beyond just how they're performing or how they've historically performed, but also for a coach, like if they had that type of information. There's this great piece from a few years ago where Patrick Mahomes's heart rate was higher when he was watching the game that when he was playing in the game. I mean that type of information to be able to be seen in real time I think is really profound. But I don't know, Alex, if you could speak to like that performance side.
Yeah, I love it, Jesse, I mean you beat me to the punch. I think what I would have said is if you got a heart monitor on a guy like Manu or Maris who played for the Red Sox, literally the greatest hitter right handed hitter I've ever seen. If you put a heart monitor, I guarantee you, with Basis loaded Frienway Park World Series, that heartbeat is a slow motion. It's probably faster when he's going to Starbucks or when he wakes.
Up in the mountain.
But where he's most comfortable, almost sleeping, like is at the plate. So that would be an incredible thing. But I would say being in baseball for thirty years now, there's a pattern recognition that you see in people's behavior, their accountability, their ability to face challenges. You getting enough of these pattern recognitions and you start putting That doesn't mean you're always in a head, but I feel very comfortable watching baseball players of who would do well in
those type of situations. Just to put a button on this conversation on analytics, I'll give you two examples in my experience in baseball where I think a team did it really well and another team that I thought could have been done a lot better. One team they give you, like remember the old en psyclopedia sets like twenty seven books that would just throw it on you. Yeah, a bunch of data and you overwhelm the hitter. He's drowning with numbers. He doesn't even know what's coming on, what's going.
So that's a very negative way in my opinion. The team that does it really well is one that says, Okay, here's all this information. We have our three analytics folks that came in and said he are the most important. Three, one, two, and number three is Jason. When you're hitting, eighty five percent of the balls are throwing to you are balls and you shouldn't swing. However, you're swinging ninety percent of the times, and your batting average is one twenty in
that pitch. And if you can fix the three to two count just to get pedestrian to two fifty, your batting average would go up twenty points, which will make you an All star. So when you're that specific about something that's so tangible, when you give that information to a great athlete, usually it pays great dividends.
Yeah, that's true for business too, Like, here's a couple of really good data points that will change the way that you think. If you know, for example, and this is a finding that sixty percent of fans of a league are fans of two teams, and that in a league that equally their favorite teams. That changes the way that the team and or the league will market and engage that customer. That's a piece of information that we've identified.
If you know that your fans are actively unsubscribing from a certain type of ticket or piece of digital content, that.
You will provide less of that.
Right, those like nuggets that Alex is talking about, very specific, very insightful.
That's exactly what we are doing at Kager for our clients. Where it's i mean, people talk.
A lot about like what is the fan demand, it's also about what is like what will move them to get.
More of what they want? And how can we solidify and simplify that for our partners.
Yeah, so let's talk about some deals.
I mean, you you have been out there, you know, working with all sorts of teams and leagues, whether it's NASCAR.
You know, other NFL teams you mentioned.
Alex and I talk all the time about this moment in college sports, how it relates to professional sports, but even just like how it sits in the broader society. Tell us about what you're doing with the NCUBLEA because it feels like it's gonna help us understand where we're going.
Yeah, I mean the most important thing here is that the NCUBLEA hosts ninety championships. And as someone who loves sports and especially college sports, you don't even I don't as someone necessarily know where those championship ships are, where they're happening, and the ease of buying tickets a few years ago, I.
Recognize this upswing potential.
This is like my example because I think it's really relevant to some of the changes we're trying to help the NCUAA with.
There was this up swing with Kaitlin.
Clark two years ago, and I looked at where the regionals were for the NCUBLEA. It was in Albany, New York, and there was not going to be another regionals in the northeast or even on the East Coast for another three years, and.
I wanted to buy tickets right then.
It was like during the final four two years ago, I didn't even have the opportunity to sign up to get an email to tell me when those tickets were going to be on sale. So today the NCUBLEA has about eleven million fans in their data warehouse, which is good. Our expectation in the work that we've done with them so far we've worked on two specific championships, men's lacrosse and men's basketball, is that within four to five years we can help grow it to over twenty five million.
And that's with a focus on data capture, on having good relationships with their partners, but also just like engaging fans in the right ways when you know they have passions for things.
So as a father of a college lacrosse player, I'm grateful, thank you, thank you for your work, thank you for your service.
It actually has been pretty incredible to watch that.
So that leads us right to I think something super interesting that's happening in this transition from college to pro What needs to happen from a data perspective to ensure that these gains that are happening. And let's start with the w with the WNBA that they like sustain.
Yeah, I would say two things.
A few years ago, Sue Bird came to the Sloan Conference is twenty fifteen, her first time, and the next year, as she was coming to the conference, she did a Player's Tribune piece called analyze this and highlighted the lack of data that was available on women's athletics, and that really stuck with me because you need to have that historical context to frame up the significance of what is happening right now with respect to scoring or assists or
player interaction. So one of the things that we have done through the san conferences, we've made investments. We made a donation to the Basketball Reference to get all of the historical data of college athletics. For women's it had only gone back to two thousand and four. Now it goes back to nineteen eighty four, but that launched this past March, So that kind of data is super critical. But also for the athletes to have that more broadly about what is happening so that they can take the
right care for their bodies. So that is one that's really important. And then on the business side, transparently, there hasn't been the investment on the technology or on the customer data that is needed, and there's a bunch of
reasons for that. But this past year, I think the Vegas was the first to announce at the aces that they sold out, and that's the first WNBA team to sell out their season tickets and there's been subsequently at least another two or three and that's really powerful because it highlights the demand. But I was even just looking at the NHL Game five, I think had three point one.
Million people who watched it.
The Angel reached Chicago Sky Caitlyn Clark Indiana Fever game had like two point one That was a regular season game.
But that's what's starting to happen, and I think the key.
The key from a pure business perspective is that the sponsors, the brands who support sports and help hold it up, they need to be able to reach that fan base more directly and that doesn't exist today and that's a lot of the work that collectively as an industry, we need to evolve and improve.
Alex, last question for you before we go to the lightning round. What do you got?
Well, jess you have a lot of folks that will be listening to you today and if somebody wants to be like the next Jessica Gellman, what advice would you give them?
Oh Man?
So I'm going to take that as interest and analytics, most important thing is to be curious and be humble. I think too many people are thinking about what they need to do, and the best way to learn is by the people who you're interacting and engaging with and surround yourself by really bright people. The Crafts have been incredible supporters. They're amazing entrepreneurs and you know, to get to know partner with them in the creation of care at the outset and then what we've come to be
across the industry is something really phenomenal. But I think like people often think that you like work for companies, like you work for people, and you work for managers. And where are you going to learn and be curious and learn good behaviors or patterns you said at the beginning, Alex, Yeah.
All right, we're going to move on to the lightning round, so quick, quick, quick, quick, just the whatever pops to mind, all right, And this is sort of building on some stuff we've talked about. But what's the best piece of advice you've received on deal making or business?
So to me, the best advice is about having true trust in the partnership. That's the most important because things are going to go sideways in some form or fashion at some point in time, and do you have a true understanding of how you're going to move forward together, so focus on who your partner is and the trust factor.
What's the best deal you wish you'd been a part of?
Best deal? I wish I'd been a part of. I kind of love what the NFL did with on Location. They're one of our partners. But to see the growth of what Endeavor.
Has done with that business is truly phenomenal. And the foresight of the NFL to recognize that there was so much value that was being lost and even the experiences of the fans that they weren't controlling at the super Bowl, and to take this of the super Bowl and extend it to the Olympics and so much more broadly is pretty powerful and I think has really changed the industry.
What is the one mistake you would tell people to avoid in negotiations?
Don't be greedy?
This concept of really understanding what moves and motivates the other side and hearing what they're saying. It's really hard sometimes from an ego perspective, like step outside and recognize that there are a lot of unsaid things that are being communicated, and how do you hear what they're saying and listen to it.
That's it.
What's your hype song before you go into a big meeting, a negotiation, or even like a little run or something.
I love that one.
I'm gonna have to go with Pat Benattar all fired up?
Nice? I love it.
What's the best deal you've worked on? What's your favorite deal?
The next one? Uh?
That's good?
All right?
Well, you've been super generous with your time. We had been so excited to do this with you. We really really appreciate it.
Best of Black. I'm sure we'll be seeing you around.
Thank you so much, Thanks Jess, thank you. I appreciate it.
The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and me Jason Kelly. This episode was made by Victor eveyas Stacey Wong, Annamasarakus, and Lizzie phillip Arth. The music was made by Blake Maples. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer. Sage Fouman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Additional support from Kelly Lafarier, Ashley Honig, Rachel, Scara Mazzino, and Elena Los Angeles. If you have a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show.
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