Walter Massey

I sat down with him recently at the University of Chicago to talk about what he's most proud of having achieved in this incredible life he's had. Dr Massey, you have been, I would say, a renaissance man. You've been involved in education, the arts, business, science. Of all the things you've done in your incredible career, what is it that you're most proud of? Well, I'm actually I'm proud

of all of those things. I think the position that has given him more satisfaction going back to more House College, which is my alma made as president. I went back in nineteen and my wife, Sherln and I, when we talk about the various things we've done, we agreed that that was a lot of fun, but as I said, satisfying a number of ways to go back to your mo mata and to preside over their graduation. A little about five thousand African American man, Let's talk about your

background for a moment um. You grew up in Mississippi when it was very segregated. What was it like growing up in Mississippi and that my nineteen forties and fifties. My mother was a school teacher, him elementary school principal of an odd who's a school teacher. I didn't know what I wanted to be, but I didn't want to be a school teacher. I thought I might want to be an engineer. I have no idea. I don't think

I just heard the word engineer. I knew I would go probably go to college because even in Mississippi in those days, um my family went off to college mostly in Mississippi and Mississippi. I didn't know I would wind up in more House, and that was serendipity. A lot of my life has been. It's one of the scholarship that allowed me to go from the tenth grade to more House, and that would have changed my life. But

you grew up in an all segregated area. I assume that you were not going to launches and dinners with whites at that time. No, No, The only lunches and dinners became close to was working in the kitchen. My grandmother was word as a domestic, and even my mother, who worked as an elementary school elementary school teacher and principal in the summers, sometimes worked as a domestic. We

were totally segregated, segregated sounds to a mile. It was apartheid, like did you worry it for your safety and life? At times? Not constantly. You one had to be careful, and you would. There were things you knew you were not to do from a very young age. White women were very dangerous like man also, but in particular things white girls and white women you would There were places you didn't go. Um So there were modes of behavior

which you expect that you learned to adapt to. But I didn't wake up every more and think thinking I would be lynched. We lived in a community that was a fairly warm community, had a big family, cousins all lived all around me, and I would say, in spite of the harsh segregation around us, within our bubble, you might say, as much as you would keep it. I had a good childhood. You got a scholarship to go to more Morehouse when it was you would only completed

the tenth grade. So what happened to the eleventh and twelfth grade? Did? You didn't need that? You went to Morehouse once you're kind of young to get to college. I was sixteen and I was part of a program, so I wasn't the only one that was about it has been going on for three years, and I was in the third you have this experiment and uh, that was about fifteen of us in my group, and there

had been some before. So the college had sort of adjusted to these young kids coming in who didn't have couses. So we had good counselors, had very good teachers, and evidently we were smart. I didn't know it because, uh, we were able to not just survive, but we were were I would say we were some of the most accomplished students in the college. Okay, so you go to more House, uh, and you decide you want to major in physics. So it was had a very popular major

at more House at the time. I was the only physics major for my intil four years. In my class that was one before me, if one before here? And what did you tell your parents you were gonna be a physics major? What did they say? My parents were very good. Uh. My mother, I think would have wanted me to be the typical mother to be a doc. Uh. And I got a PhD was something, But they were comfortable with whatever I showed. I came to physics through mathematics.

I was not a tinker. I was not a person who did experiments, and in fact that was not that attracted to laboratory science. But I like mathematics and I was pretty good at it, and I took my and I took my first physics schools. I saw that he was a way mathematics could be used trying to understand the world around. So you majored in physics, You graduated from Warehouse, and then you decided to get a PhD in physics at Washing University in St. Louis. Why did

you pick Washington University? A very good school? But how did you pick that school? My physics teacher at more Houses, his name was Hans Sabina's hop about Christians and it was Danish white. Uh. Don a month with PhD from Harbord, and he became my mentor and grew into a friend. But as I said, I was the only and the advanced physics class at that more House. I was the only one in the class, so it was like the

Oxford tutorial system, just Chris and myself. And Chris recommended that I go to why she this is nineteen sixty now, and because I worked at more House one year and it wasn't clear that that was every place was going to be welcoming or nurturing and supportive of a young black person wanted to be a physicist. And Chris thought, what you had that environment and it turned out that it did when you got your PhD? Or what did

you decide to do? I came to ARGON here in Chicago as a post doctor, and Argon was run by the University of Chicago, so I was also associated with the University of Chicago then, and my first job was working with the group at ARGON National Laboratory. She worked in Oregon. Adventure you got a teaching position at the University of Illinois, and Urvanah did and then you did that for while you're teaching physics. I went to Albanna

for two reasons. I loved Argon. I love my research, but that's what I was doing a little right here in Hyde Park, about oh four blocks from here. Um that celabrity. We could see it from where we it seated. Nineteen sixty eight, Mine Luther King Jr. Was assassinated, and from where we are now you could see the city of burning, and I could see it from my apartment.

And it really became clear to me that I say, I had this feeling that I was just not contributing to the civil rights movement to the degree that I felt that I ought to. I was going to Argon doing my research. Coming home, I to the kids in the command of the community. But I wanted to be more engaged, and I thought if I went to a college campus where there were students, I would be more

engaged in activities. I went to Albanna for that reason, and Urbana turned out to be the very best place in the world for the kind of physics I did. You did that for a while, and then you got recruited to go to Brown University. I did, and you became the dean of studentship Brown, then of the college. In the college and um were there a lot of African American professors and a Brown Actually Uh, at that

point there were quite a few. And interestingly asked that because I was just reminiscent with some of my old friends about what we call a golden age at Brown. Brown. And then when I went to the nineteen six to nine and seven and we had Professor May in physics, engineering, chemistry, political science, history three in English, the general council was black. The associate had a him of it. So we had a wonderful black community. It didn't grow at linearly, didn't

even last but a while. But yes, the period I was there in the early seventh was front period Brown for a number of years. And then you got recruited to be the head of ARGON. I did. So what does Argon actually do? Argon? Uh? It's called a general science National Laboratory is one of the laboratories that the Department of Energy owns, but they operated by contractors. University operates our gone so forth. Much of this history it

was involved in nuclear reactors. Now it does basic science, a lot of materials science, UH, and low temperature science. That's why I was there in the sixties. It also has a very large facility called the Advanced Photon Source, which is like a giant high energy X ray machine that can you know, penetrate through materials and examine them. It's also has some of the world's fastest computers. It has a big program and energy storage advanced research on batteries.

So it's a broad based um energy research. The laboratory right now, So you're running argn um. Is that a place where that was filled with a lot of black physicists and mathematicians or it was fairly white? Fairly is not? Fairly is an under statement? Mostly most overwhelming? But what all? Right? So you're doing that for a number of years, and then you get a chance to be the head of

the National Science Foundation. All of a sudden, you're handing out money on behalf of the federal government, the National Science Foundation. You find you are more popular than you believe. It's always best to be on the side of being asked for about it to ask for If you're doing that for a few years and then you get a chance to be the provost of the University of California system, is that right? So why did you take that position? It's a great job, and you'd want to be a

head of a major university. I did by that time do the transition from doing too administering science that are gone. And then as Uh, I began to see that I really had a knack for um said, let's say running the organizations, and that people people like working for me, and I'd like working with people. And I saw that I could get things done over areas that I cared about science, education, science or underrepresented groups, these kinds of

things that I couldn't do as an individual scientist. All right,

so you took the position. You're the provost, the number two position in all of the University of California system, maybe the leading public education system in the United States and higher education, and so you have a chance to be the chance or the overall head of the University California system if you'd stayed there for another year or two and then all of a sudden, your alma mater comes calling more House and they say, come back and be the president of this small college in Atlanta, not

the head of the University California system. Why didn't you say, look, I'm going to be the head of the University California system. It's a better job than being they had a more House. Why did you not do that? I did say that. I said that for several months from the albit to my alumni friends and trustees. I said, no, you're crazy that I've been hill. My whole career has been in big science, big institutions. I mean, that's that's what I know. But um, I thought about it. It really was a

family decision. One day, Surely surprised me by flying in my two sons for data and I came home for working. There they were, and we talked a lot about it and reached a decision that I could probably do more in areas that I cared about, some of which I just mentioned at more House. One. Secondly, that I really owed priceefully everything that I had achieved to my beginnings at more House, and that I ought to do this.

Our youngest son, the one who lives in Amsterdam, Eric said, you know, being head of the University of California be great, Dad, but you could get a lot more accomplished than he had more House. How many years were you the president of more Houses? That twelve years? Twelve years. Okay, so while you're at more House, you got an opportunity to go on the board of the Bank of America. No, I did that in California, because then they went on the board of the old bank. The old wore we

emerged and we were located in San Francisco. And then at one point they said, you should be the chairman of the board of Bank of America. Is that right? That's right? Wasn't that simple? But that's right? And did you want to be chairman of the board of Bank of America. I had no time to think about it. It came about so quickly. Came as a result of

the shareholders meeting in April two thousand nine. After the shareholders had put on the proxy the agenda a proposition to separate the chair from the CEO, as you know, and most cooperation. That's a combined position. And the shareholder vote, uh got the most. It's got the majorge of the votes. Now, the board didn't have to accept that shareholder vote, so

recommendations and every good, but the board did. And just after the board meeting, the then chairman Ken Lewis said, the board executive committed I was gonna recommended to the board that I'd be the chairman. This is on the way into the meeting and I said, how long did I think about this? This is about a minute. All right, So Danny, if you get that position, a couple of days later, the federal government calls you up and says, guess what, we gotta talk to you. You've got some problems.

They told you that you had to do some serious things to fix the Bank of Americas. At right, that's correct, I thought when I accepted the position, but I thought, wow, it's prestigious, it's on that and that, well I can I can do it. I've been on I've been on what the teen years, so I wasn't a novice in the board room or with you know by then, of financial institution. I've been on the board of McDonald's where we had a non executive chair at one point, Motorola

had a non executive chair. So to BPCE so I had seen what they did. It's about a two days a week a job and pretty um. The preside over meetings, you help with the agenda, You keep in touch the CEO.

I said, well, I can I can do that? Until the fan called and asked me, asked, summoned me to Richmond, which is the office of the Federal Reserve Branch that oversees uh A. Bank of America was just located in Charlotte and asked me to bring some other directors with me because I didn't want to take this message back to my colleague by myself. And the message they gave

me turn this into a full time job. So they basically said that you had some financial problems at Bank of America and you need to make some changes and ultimately you have to spend a lot of time fixing the Bank of America. Is that right? And so then you led an effort to pick Brian moynahan, who's still the CEO of Bank of America's a right, that's good. So that worked out? Okay, that's what out? Fantastic Brian. I think it's just done a wonderful It's not just

my opinion. He's been chosen CEO of the year. I think a couple of time, not just in the financial industry, but throughout the corporate America, and the bank has done very well. I suppose somebody says, I'm watching this and I'm a young person. I'm in college now or high school or graduate school, and I want to be water Massy and I grow up, what would you say is the best way to prepare to be someone like you. There's no substitute for hard work that it doesn't know,

let's start with that. But also pursue things that you're interested in, things that you like, And especially if you in high school and college, don't commit totally so quickly to been totally absorbed in one thing. And you may have to because if you're gonna do things like computer science, maybe in physics, it really does take a lot of time. But I urged young people just study other things. You know, take courses outside of your especialty. It's a broad based learning.

From first, you're gonna enjoy it, and secondly, it might open up other doors that you may not even realize. Would you say race relations in the United States are much better than when you were growing up in Mississippi or do you think we've made less progress than you think we should have made both? I think I think that's much better, uh than when I was going up, I would not be in the position you even have

this interview. And there are so many other people in positions of importance, so many um people who occupied areas and I never thought I would see them, and but I would have hoped that be better. It's haven't done a lot of progress, and somehow we are in an area era now where in spite of the progress, race relations in certain areas has become very scary. You know, some of the things that one reads about now remind

me growing up in Mississippi. Let me ask you right now about something you're involved in right now, which is the Giant Magellan telescope. You're leading the effort to get people to fund the Giant Magellan telescope. Why do we need the Giant Magellan telescope since we have the web selescope it seems to be sending back pretty nice pictures. How much better is they trying? Magellan gonna be four times better, four times better, four times better resolution, which

made the pictures will be sharp. But the science the way it will work the web, as you're seeing those pictures there sharp, but they are identifying parts of galaxies and space almost back to the beginning of the universe that people haven't seen. They can't, folks. It cannot focus, however, more sharply as we would like to be able to identify objects. So the web will identify a portion of space.

The GMT Giant Magellan telescope can affect zoom in on that space, have final resolution, look at it more clearly. And in addition to that, we'll have a set of instruments which in collect that light, analyze it and see, for example, does it contain signs of oxygen of water? So they'll be complimentary. How much does it cost before we get the giant Magellan telescope? We're estimating now at over two billion dollars two billion dollars. And where is

that money coming from? About highs coming from private sources. The University of Chicago being one of the eleven partners, will put up about half, and the federal government is now will negotiate with negoti shading with the National Science

Foundation to come up with the other half. You know, I've often thought the way you could raise money for the giant magel and telescope used to take away the name Magellan because he didn't put up any money for it, and let somebody very wealthy Elon Musk or Bill Gates or somebody so will name it after them and put up a billion dollars. You ever thought of that? We think of that every day. I do. Yes, you have a millionaire that you like, I think you need a

multi billionaire but there might be something out there. If your name it after from it's a big, big naming opportunity as Actually I'm not that we do. We have naming opportunities all the way from a mirror, an instrument that will look for ats so planets. Uh. For twenty million, ten million dollars, the mirror is gonna be named. We actually have one mirror name Uh. Mitchell dinner was Donna

to the university was twenty million dollars. Uh. The telescope dome itself a hundred million dollars, and you can name the whole. We can negotiate device for hotels. What are they gonna name after anything? The water mashi anything or anything name me after you? I think they have some ported photopotties. The life of people on Earth is going to be better if that is funded, because of what we're gonna discover that there's life somewhere else in the universe.

And how is that going to make our life better? I don't think it's gonna make your life better in the sense of delivering material comfort, material advantages. I think it's gonna make you want human life more interesting and

probably inspire people to think about their life differently. Uh. The artist Jeff Kohn's Friends of Mine UM says that when he looks at those images from the James Webb Telescope, the others that show you almost the beginning of the university, see these galaxies, it just makes you realize how special it is to be living in these times when you can discover these things, and how special it is to

be a human being. I mean, how improbable it is that there's something like us that has been generated over all these years and now we still exist. Do you believe there is life in the universe somewhere else? I do? Now, why do I say that's just probability there was? And we go firm it we used to be here. Actually, what is purported to have said, where is everybody? Why

haven't we heard from them? Because just given the number of stars with what now they're calling exoplanets planets, that, um, it looked like they would be situated close enough in a position with a start to have life. They've already discovered five thousand, five thousands and our galaxy, and given a number of galesses billions in the universe, UM, it just seems to be probably holly unlikely, you know, I from a mathematical statistical point of view, that you wouldn't

have conditions like we have on it. But I don't have any other reason. So as you look back on your life incredible career, what would you say is the legacy that you would like to have people think about you? What? What would you're most proud of having done? Is at the position at uh at moor House or your scientific leadership. What would you say as your legacy to your children, grandchildren and your fellow Americans. Well, it wouldn't be in

a particular accomplishment. I would hope it would be that people would realize that you can accomplish a great deal in life no matter where you start. Uh if you, for I do think luck is involved a lot of luck, But if you have the y of you have the right mentors, um the right support, and if you yourself are willing to work hard at it and and be curious enough and bold enough to take advantage of opportunity as one day arise. Thanks for listening to hear more

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