Thasunda Brown Duckett

actually is t I A A. What does that stand for? Yeah, so it's great to be here. So t I A A UH stands for Teachers Insurance Annuity Association UM. But given that we're that and so much more, we're simply t I A A UH. And when you think about what we do, we exist to ensure that millions of

Americans can have a secure retirement. We were founded by Andrew Carnegie over a hundred years ago who saw a professor retire and poverty and not with dignity, and so from that moment our company was founded UH and we are Fortune one company. We return all of our profits, share our profits with our participants, and we're very much anchored on fulfilling our mission, um even as we stand here today. All right, So Andrew Carnegie came up with

this idea a hundred plus years ago. That's because college professors at the time we're retiring and they had no money. Sure, and what about people who are not college professors. That's suppose they're high school teachers? Were they covered as well? Yeah? So over time we started with professors, but over time our mission expanded to not just the professors on campus, but also the janitors, the staff K through twelve hospitals, other nonprofits, and most recently having our product travel into

the four one K market. And really, when you think about our our our mission to make sure that people can retire with dignity, we think having access to guaranteed income as part of one's reach hirement portfolio is absolutely critical. So when people retire now, if they have a t I a program, they get a guaranteed income or do they get just whatever you can return on your investments. Well, clearly our participants have choice, and depending on the plan

depends on the university or the organization. But what makes t I a special is that within their in plan portfolio they can have exposure to guaranteed income, and that means that in addition to stocks and bonds, you have an in plan annuity that provides you that guarantee, that insurance that you can feel confident that regardless of the markets, it won't go negative, that you won't outlive it, and that ultimately it can complement your overall financial allocation as

you think about your retirement. Okay, so today, what do you think of the biggest problem is with respect to worrying about investments. Are you worried about the economy? Are you worry about the geopolitical situation around the world. What's going to most adversely affect your ability to give good rates to return to your clients. Well, when I think about, you know, how we invest, we're a pretty well positioned

to navigate any environment. But if I just think about the broader economy, clearly inflation is top of mind for the FED. Clearly I worry about the war in Ukraine, UM, and I also worry about the geopolitical environment. I think when it comes to our participants, inflation is top of mind because these are individuals that are thinking about retirement or in retirement, and the everyday cost UH is what's on top of what's top of mind for them. And

so that's what's top of mind for me. Given how high inflation is right now relative to where it was, I mean, what can somebody who has to worry about being a retirement living on a fixed income, what can they really do? I mean, that's the beauty of t I A traditional That's what we've been here to do

for over a hundred years. And so people who are thinking about retirement or in retirement that have access to guaranteed income, they're able to draw on their Social Security and they're also able to draw on their guaranteed income while they're navigating evolved to markets and hopefully not having to sell too early in the market. And so I think, more than ever, this is why it's so important to talk about access to guaranteed income, access to and planned annuities.

Let's suppose you're not a teacher, you're not any of the professions that you cover. Let's suppose you're in something important like private equity. Right, Um, you might be okay, So let's suppose you work in a private equity firm. And uh, if you say, i'd like I've heard t i A has a good program. I'd like to sign up for it. Can you sign up for private equity

programs as well? And me though, it's do you do you cover industries not just normally associated with t I A A. Yeah, well we just recently announced um our ability to have access to lifetime income solutions guaranteed income move into the four one K market and so very soon the answer will be yes that within your plan, you will have an opportunity if we negotiate that with your plan sponsor, to have exposure to t I A traditional like product that we that we call the Secure

income UH product. Suppose I say I like your company and i'd like to invest in the company. I just want to make a good investment. Can I invest in your company? No, we are private UM and so we're not a public company. We're private. But the good news is if you are a participant, UH, you you get to share our profits. And so if you worked at a university or a healthcare with t I A, you get the benefit and sharing our profits. You ever thought about going public and changing all those rules or you

don't want to do that? No, I'd rather share my profits with our participants. So you guarantee people through an annuity certain returns when they retire. Is that right? Yeah, we guarantee a percentage, and then depending on the performance of the company and in our investments, we can credit you a higher amount depending on how we're performing. I assume that you're able to do that because you put a lot of money in private equity, which gets high

rates or return. Is that right? Well, we're we're able to do that because we have a great investment manager that's here. But our general account primarily has exposure to fixed income, but we also do have exposure to private equity, um and alternatives. That allows us to have a high triple A rated type insurance company with exposure to equity, which gives us the opportunity over the long haul to outperform and return or share those profits back to participants.

T I A A owns New Bene Is that right? But Neuvine is your investment arm. Is that right? So this is a company you bought a number of years ago, and now all of your investments go through new Vine Is that right? And New ben was a municipal bond specialists at one point, but now they've diversified out of that.

They have I mean what's been great about the acquisition I want to say in fourteen um is exactly they were known as a top muni shop, and we still are, but through acquisitions and partnerships like Churchill and others, we now have a general account that provides exposure to not just traditional investments but also alternatives, which has been terrific for us. So today, your interest in this is in part because you saw when you were a young child,

your father did not have a retirement programmers that right. Yes, So my father worked UH for a company for many years, blue collar worker, drove trucks, worked in the warehouse UM and he had access to his pension plan, but he could have also participated with his four oh one K. And it wasn't until I graduated from college and was talking to my father Otis Brown and realized that he at that time had never contributed to his four oh one K. And so to have the daughter look at

your father and say, Dad, this is not sufficient is something that stayed with me because there's so many Otis Browns out here that have access to a retirement plan, but that plan may not have communicated in a way that Otis Brown would say. This is something I need to take advantage of and as a result, Uh, there was a lot of dollars that were left on the table. Let's talk about your background. So where were you born? So I was born in Rochester, New York. And you

saw it. You wanted warmer weather, so you moved to Texas. Is that what happened? My dad needed to keep a job, That's what happened. Uh. No, at the time, being a blue collar worker office or a plant which shut down, you would have another option, and at that time, one of the options was moving to Texas. And so my parents, my mom and my father, me and my two brothers, uh, and everything that we owned in a car and we

drove to Texas. And so we started our lives with just the five of us and not much else in an apartment. Okay, And so what part of Texas were you in? Arlington, Texas? So when you were growing up, were you interested in finance? Always? No? Um, what did you want to do? I don't know. My dad would say I was going to be a lawyer. I guess

because I would always debate everything in the house. I think what I knew at a younger age is whatever I would do, I would do it well, um, And whatever I would do, I would want to make sure that I'm inspiring and making impact. And that's been true throughout my career. Now, you were a gifted athlete when you were younger? Aren't all athletes saying we were gifted? But I was pretty good. I was pretty good in

basketball and volleyball. Didn't try to play professionally, No, And if I tried to in this day and age, I might be a water girl at that point. I mean, the skills are just incredible today. Where did you go to school in Arlington public schools? I did Sam Houston High School, Okay? And you like the name Houston, so you decided to go to the University of Houston as well? That's right. You know there's something special about Houston, so I why not mess up the trend? All right? So

you graduated? What did you study? Their income security or something like that? Absolutely right? Now. I graduated from the University of Houston with degrees in finance and marketing. Okay. And what did you decide you wanted to do after that? Well, what's interesting, um, is that there's a program called in Roads and UM in roses a program for minorities that give you exposure into corporate America. In Rose is my disruptor. Um in Roads is what gave me an opportunity to

even know the word corporate America. And so I interned at a company called Fannie May, and that's how I got exposure into financial services. Okay, she went to work for Fanny May. I did. And did you get an m b A as well? At some point I did. While I was at Fannie May, I was able to work full time and pursue my m b A. And I did that at Baylor. So you later joined a firm called Chase, Yes, a little bank in uh, New York. Who recruited you to Chase? Yeah? So at the time

it was the CEO of the mortgage company. Um. And I was on Fannie May business in New York and presented And then afterwards he asked me a question. I don't know or remember what it was, but I answered it uh. And then he said, I hear you're highly regarded at Fanny May. What would it take for you to join Chase? And what did you say? Um? I said, we can meet for lunch. Okay, Okay, so you ultimately, um, I guess convinced him that you should be hired and

you joined Chase. Is that right? Well, I would say he ultimately convinced me. Um. But yeah, so at that time, and really what's so interesting about this story is that about six months before that meeting, I said to myself, no matter how much I love Fanny May, I really believed in mission. The mission is our business. The business is our mission. Um. I could never get closer to the consumer being in the secondary market, and so one of my goals was to get closer to the consumer,

and this opportunity allowed me to do that. So you rose up to be the president of Chase Consumer Bank. Yes, you oversaw that for how many years? For about three years? Three years? Three years? Did you ever have an a t M card denied when you were trying to do You're the head of that. Never your a t M card ever get denied. What do you do if that happens? Well, you know what if you do? I say self, no, I know who to call within the team to help. So I never had my card denied, but we would

do some testing. I would absolutely pop in a branch and I hope they didn't know who I was and just asked a few questions, you ever have a credit card really denied? I guess, well, I mean it's a it's a tough feeling when it's you know, when you get denied, but you know they're just doing it. You didn't say you know who I am, I'm the head of this Yeah, I did not. I just just treat

it like everyone else. All right. So, UM, how how long ago did you get approached by T A T I A. Yeah, this happened in Okay and during the COVID period of time. Yes, so, um, all right, so they approached you and they said, would you like to be the president and chief executive officer? And you said, let me ask Jamie Diamond. Is that what you said?

Not exactly? Uh, you know, I think you know. It was a long interview process, um, and clearly they were able to tell me all the wonderful things about this company, and over time I fell in love with the company, UM and realized that this definitely was the next best move for me in my career. I think this is the most amazing job. I get to lead a company, a Fortune one hundred company that's anchored in a mission to make sure that everyone has access to retirement and

can retire with dignity. Um. So yeah, this is a phenomenal opportunity that get a privileged to lead. So are you surprised there only two women? You're one of them who is running a Fortune five company today, who is an African American woman? Is that surprising to you at this time? And it's surprising, um in one sense, but not surprising in the other. Surprising in the sense that there's so many talented African American women that could absolutely

lead a Fortune five. It's not surprising because we know that there's only ever been three full time for total to run a Fortune five Um. And it just says that we have a lot more work to do, not just in corporate America, but in so many other facets of our society. So what are you doing at T I A a about diversity and equity and inclusion in your management ranks and on your employee ranks. So how

do you rank in in that area? Now? Well, we're at the very top and it starts with the board and I'm fortunate enough to have a board of trustees that UH, commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion is something that's always been a part of who we are at t I A. A. Our board is very diverse. My management team is probably one of the diverse management teams of any Fortune five company. H And when I think about our why, you know, it's just saying I want

the best talent. And if you fundamentally believe that talent is created equally, opportunity is not. You'll always ask who's not at who's not at the table, who's not in the room. And I get to surround myself with people that have that same level of resolve. Now, E s

G is a big thing in the investment world. A lot of your clients say they really care about E s G performance of your invest in the group you invest with, or how do you measure your E s G performance at at T I A. Yeah, I mean we've always been committed to E s G. And when I think about our y, I mean clearly, uh, we believe that it's core to long term growth, and it's core to understanding and mitigating risk um and we also understand you know, the important role that it can play

in society, and so our participants are very much curious about what we're doing in E s G. Navine clearly has been a leader in E. S. G UM and it's a conversation that we have on campus. It's a conversation that we have at universities and hospitals, etcetera. So it absolutely is top of mind. So today you must be asked to be involved in a lot of nonprofit organizations and going nonprofit boards and philanthropic things. How do

you decide what's the most important priorities for you? Yeah, Well, it is important for me to give back, and I am pretty well allocated. But I start with where can I make impact. I start with things that I care about, um and I and I start with things that I

think ultimately I can learn from. And so whether that's having my own foundation, whether that's being on the board of Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights or the Economic Club of New York, etcetera, they're all areas that I am able to hopefully make a difference, as importantly I'm able to learn from others. What does your own foundation do? Yeah?

So the Otis and Rosie Brown Foundation, uh is. It's based in Texas, and um, it's giving homage to Otis and Rosie Brown everyday people that made an extraordinary impact. So the organization is extraordinary is dot org. And what we do is we provide scholarships based on character because that's how I was east. I rent my title, I owned my character, um, and so we want to know

your story. And then we also provide micro grants too small organizations, people that may not be as connected UM, people that may have started their organization out of some form of loss or trauma. Basically, I want to see the unseen and I want to remind people that how they're able to make an impact are the things that reside within them. Your parents are alive, they are and do they call you with advice from time and time and say, look, and you're still our girl, and we

want to tell you what to do. Well, you know it's great. Otis and Rosie Brown are my heroes. And when they call me, it's not about my rented title. You know, they're reminding me about my character. UM, They're reminding me to stay humble. They're reminding me to make sure that you know, I'm looking out for others and making impact. And then Otis Brown is just reminding me that he's very proud and he may brag a little bit about what I do and how I do it.

So he's my biggest cheerleader. So one of your concerns is making certain there's access to financial security. So what have you done at t I A A to make certain that people who are underserved actually get a fair break. What I'm really proud of UM is that at t I A A we just don't focus on the professors. We spend a lot of time talking to universities about the people that are cleaning the grounds. Uh. We meet with them and we will share data and insights to

say here's who's participating, here's who's not. We have what we call a mission metric to see are you on track and to be able to talk to a university to say, here are those that are on track and here those that are not, and how can we work together to provide advice, have our wealth advisors meet with them, be able to do UM fairs, but also advocate as a matter of policy on how do we make things easier for all Americans to be able to have access to a four one K four three B plan in

a way that's easy auto enrollment, auto escalation, in a way that can make sure that we're bringing education insights to them as well. So you're described have this situation. Your father he didn't ne really know what a four oh one K was or how to apply for it. How do you now deal with people in the equivalent position?

What do you do to educate them? Yeah? I mean first we have to meet people where they are um and we know that money is emotional and when you're a notice Brown, you know trying to do the best that you can. It's not enough for companies to say that we have it on our website or that we put a flyer together. I think what we all have to do as leaders is we have to go to the warehouse. We have to make sure that we're talking in a way that Otis Brown can say this is

something that I need to do today. And so what we're what we are doing at t i A, whether that's digital, whether that's through benefits and affairs, were really working with our plan sponsors to say, how do we reach every faculty and staff at your university if it's in a different language, how do we do that. How do we make sure that if they need to bring their family, we do that. So the point is it's not just looking at the overall plan and say yes, we have a plan. Yes we have benefits, Yes we

provide education. We have to look at engagement. Are they engaging and then what's happening in terms of the outcome. Now, women on average have about a thirty percent lower um I guess amount of money saved up for retirement compared to men. So what are you doing about that? Yeah, so we launched a campaign called Retire Inequality um and we do know that women retire with thirty percent less women make eight three cents on the dollar. And so

there's a couple of things that we're doing. One, it's having this conversation and making sure that we all are aware that there is a gap by the way women live longer than men, so longevity risk is a real factor. Secondly, it's about making sure that we are talking to women about what can you do differently and so whether that's negotiating pay and what are some tools that are out there, making sure that you take the time to negotiate, because we know women do not negotiate as much as men,

which put you at a disadvantage to start. But then also along the way, making sure that women are securing their own retirement and that is part of their retirement plan. We're having much more conversation around guaranteed income as well, and so ensuring that we understand what are the nuances for women. If you think about COVID, two million women exited the workforce, they did not continue to contribute to

their for one care for three B plan. And so how do we make sure as a matter of policy, as a matter of engagement, that women can have an opportunity to catch up, That women can understand that if you exit the workforce and now you're back, that that's two years of compounding that you are not able to take advantage of. And how do we continue to make sure that we're educating them and giving the tools that

they need to get back on tracks. Now, do you ever go to Washington, d C of lobbying members of Congress? You ever do that? I do UM find that an uplifting experience. When you know what's been great is that talking about retirement, recognizing that all Americans run the risk of running out of money. What I find is it's a bipartisan conversation. So talking to Republicans, Democrats, and independence all care about this issue. And when I think about

what we're talking about, there's three areas. One, there's an access gap. We know one third of workers public workers do not have access to an employer sponsor plan, and so working with government to say, how do we have policies to make it easier for small businesses UH and take some of the complexity out to be able to provide that benefit. There's a savings gap. We talked to policymakers about overt Americans are not saving for retirement and so how do we work with employers to have auto

enrollment auto escalation. And then lastly we talk about a guarantee gap, which is how do we make sure that we can have in plant annuities like t i A traditional as part of an investment allocation. So when you go to Washington, do you ever say I could do a better job than these members of Congress? You ever thought about running for office yourself? For not for you. I'm focused on being the CEO of t i A

right now. And suppose the President United States called you and said you are so talented, I want you to be in my cabinet. Would you ever serve in the cabinet of our president? Or you don't want to go to Washington at all? Well, clearly if a president called me to serve, it's something that I would take under consideration, but not if it conflicted with being the CEO of t I A might be a conflict there, It might be hard to do both, be a little bit of

a conflict. But maybe at some point down the road. I want to make impact and however I can make impact, That's what I'm here to do. And if at some point in time, after I'm long gone from, you know, being a CEO, if there is an opportunity to be of service in another capacity, I would always take that under advice. So today, what is the most thing You're most proud of? What you're in your current position? Most proud of what you've achieved. You've been in a position

a relatively short period of time. But what are you most proud of what you've achieved so far? Wow? I am most proud of really getting back to the core of what we do UM and designing and building products that can truly meet the needs of today and helping more Americans retire with dignity. UM. I'm very proud of earning the right. When you come in as a new CEO from the outside, you have to earn the right

with your team and with your clients. And I believe I'm earning that right every single day, and that makes me very proud of and If Andrew Carnegie came back, what would you like to ask him about his program? Would you tell him either a pretty good job or you tell him you've made some improvements on it. I would tell him we're not done yet. Um. I would tell him, thank you. My mother is a retired educator.

I would tell him that his ability to see an educator educating the world's greatest minds retire in poverty and not in dignity is exactly what we are still here to do and will do for the next one years. There's a quote by Andrew Carnegie that says, and I don't want to misquote, but something like, uh, you're not rich until you enrich others, the lives of others. And I would say, Andrew Carnegie, you absolutely enriched the lives of others, and it's our accountability and responsibility to make

sure that we continue to do that. Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. M HM