Mike Pompeo

well as the House Select Benghazi Committee. Pompeo sat down with David Rubinstein, co founder of the Carlisle Group and host of the Bloomberg television show Peer to Peer Conversations, to discuss his foreign policy priorities, sanctions against Iran, protecting the integrity of America's elections, and his relationship with the president. So um, he became our seventieth of the United States Secretary of State in April of two thou eighteen. Um,

you're happy with the job. Is as much as fun as you thought it was going to be every day. So um, what are the most significant foreign policy issues of concern to you? What do you think are the biggest challenges we have in our country right now in foreign policy area? So you know, I could ask this question about sort of rank ordering the challenges. I mean,

that's not an original question. I mean, so look, it's a it's important question where it's it's about priorities and resources and how do you allocate time and how do you think about the problems that you know. For me, the first the first task when I came in now to sixty and seventeen months ago to the State Department after after having been the CIA director, was to make sure the State Department was ready in the moment of crisis in terms of priorities. Uh, you know, every morning,

the first thing I do is read about China. So I take time and talk about all the broad array of issues that present both real opportunity for that estates and risk to America from China. Let's talk about China for a moment. The trade negotiations are going on. You're not the lead in the trade negotiations, think Bob Lightheiser is taking the lead in that. But can you make a progress in non trade issues until the trade issue is resolved. Yeah, And and we we've made some um,

we've out other places where we've gotten backwards. The Chinese have frankly been very helpful on North Korea, so they have done more to enforce the UN Security Council resolutions on North Korea than ever at any time in history. Um, they're they're helpful with us today in Afghanistan and the project there too. It's something folks don't spend a lot of time thinking about. H. So far, so good with respect to respecting our sanctions enforcement on the Islamic Republic

of Iran. But so there are places we can work with China. There are lots of diplomatic fronts where we have h We don't share the same values, but we have overlapping interests and we work on those problems. So you have been in North Korea and you've met with the leader of North Korea on a few occasions, and you've been there where the president has met with him. So what type of person is he? Does he have great? Interesting thoughts does he have? Did he speak English? Are

do you communicate in English with him? And can you just can arize what your impression is of the leader of North Korea? Yeah, so I've spent more time with him than any American passed Dennis Rodman on the last trip. Okay, okay, so uh so so he look, he's he's he's bright, he he has managed. He has managed to rise to the level leadership in a difficult environment where he was

a very young man when his time came. Uh. From my very first interaction with him, he's been very candid with me about the things that are important to him, the priority set and how the negotiations might proceed. Uh. He's now repeated that he's prepared to de nuclearized. It's not time to execute. Uh, and I hope that we can achieve that. Do you expect a third summit to be announced anytime soon? The date and time of it, and there's there's there's nothing in the works, okay, because

there's not nothing planned. And um, why did the last summit end before the lunch even occurred? Why did it kind of abruptly end? Uh? There was a big bit esque spread to put it in economic torran. Uh. We we'd had an umber. I can't go into all the just but we had a number of conversations about a broad range of issues in the run up to that. My team it worked very very hard, UH, and it just turned out that the idea that the leaders could bridge that gap in that moment turned out to not

work that day. But do you think they're The U S position has been that we would not lift sanctions until there was a so called d nuclearization. But would you be willing to consider having the North Koreans keep whatever they have in nuclear weapons now and then lift sanctions that they didn't do more than they have now or is that something too hypothetical? Too hypothetical? Okay, I didn't want to give you the answer, but all right, So look, I'll say this, I've I've talked about this

publicly a couple of times. We hope that there are creative solutions to unlocking this. It is a very difficult challenge for each of us. We have to remember too, these aren't U S sanctions. These are UN Security Council resolutions. These are global sanctions put on by every single country, and so we are we are mindful that we are the steward for enforcing those. Let's go to easier part of the world, the Middle East. Okay, So, um, this

rates or for moves? Are we committed to keeping open the straight so far moves at any cost militarily, We're going to keep them open. Uh. Well, We're going to build out a maritime security plan. Um. Countries from all across the world who have a vested interest in keeping those wider ways open will participate. Uh. It will take more time than we wish it would take, but I'm very confident that the world understands its importance. That America

is prepared to be a significant part of that. But we need countries from all across the world to assist us in protecting commercial transit. What will be successful what our position, I presume is that if the U. S ship were taken by the Iranians, we would presumably do something militarily. I guess I don't know, But what about if if a ship is taken that's a British ship or some other nationality, or we not committed to recovering

that ship or doing something to defend those ships. We are working I was working with what I guess I'm not working with my third British Ford Minister, since that's been a secondary state, but working with the British to find the solution to both a UH, right that injustice and second prevent it from happening again. So to establish the turrets. That's the mission set. Recently, you gave a visa for the Foreign Minister of Iran to come to the United States, for you an event. Yes, yes, okay.

So when he was in the United States, were there any indirect or direct talks with him and the State Department about anything that you can talk about? No talks, No talks and okay. And although he spoke, the American media decided to give him a megaphone to talk about things that are untrue going on in the Islambic Republic of Iran and gave him a chance to lie vociferously

to the American people. I look forward to the chance to speak to the Iranian people in that same way, but truthfully, all right, tell them honestly about what's going on inside of their own country. I so far, they've not taken me up on that offer. How President Trump has imposed uh tough sanctions on Iran. Do you think they are going to have the effect of bringing it Ran to a negotiating table or not. You have to step back and think about what we're doing more broadly

in the Middle East with respect to Iran. It's the warld's largest state sponsor of terror. It has the capacity to continue to work towards developing a nuclear weapons system, which would cause proliferation risks all throughout the Middle East, and so we are very concerned about that as well. Are are Are are chosen strategy was to take a hundred eighty degree term from what the previous administration has done.

They created opportunity for enormous wealth for the kleptocrats in Iran and for them to underwrite Hezbollah militious in Iraq, UH, the Hooties and Yemen that are even as we speak, preparing to continue their attacks on Saudi Arabia. UH. We we've decided to go the other way. We're trying to reduce their resources to conduct terror campaigns all around the world,

build out their missile systems and their nuclear program. And we've been incredibly effective that I remember, David, I'm sure no one in this room, but many here in Washington said that American sanctions alone won't work. Well, they've worked. We have taken over the crude oil that was being shipped by around all around the one. We have taken

it off the market. We've done so what I checked when I came in, Brent CREWD is at four uh sent eight percent lower than when we withdrew from the j C p o A. So we have we have managed both to protect the economic growth that the world needs while doing our best to denied resources to the Islamic Republic run regual prospect of another Iranian agreement, one that's more favorable to your point of view and the presidence point of view, is that likely to happen this year,

next year, or you just can't predict. I don't do time. I time timelines are a fool's Errand in my business, the Iranians are now enriching uranium at a greater level than they were before. Do you worry that somebody Israel might attack the Iranian facilities or you're not worried about that. Yes, they're enriching more than they were under the agreement. Their temporary their temporary reduction in enriched uranium has now ended. They're moving back in the wrong direction. We're urging them

to think about. But for us, it's not about these levels set in the j c p o A, all right, And it's about the capacity to build at a nuclear weapons system in a time frame that matters to you and your kids and your grandkids. The previous agreement didn't remotely touch that. In the Middle East, do you see any prospect for peace between Israel and the Palestinians. There's been talk of a plan and UH, do you see any progress being made? So there's a reason it hasn't

been solved for forty years or more. UM. In the end, UH, this will be the decision of the Prime Minister of Israel and the leadership UH in the West Bank and Gaza. I I haven't been deeply involved in Mr Kushner's efforts there, but is our position in the United States government position that we prefer a one state solution or a two state solution. You'll see our plan shortly, Okay, we give us a hint or okay we were We prefer with the Palestinians and the Israelis agreed to and what the

nature of that relationship will look like. Now, negotiations are underway with the Taliban in the Middle East. The US has involved. Other than that, you see any progress in reducing our need to be in Afghanistan anything and in your future real progress. I try not to do timelines, but I'm optimistic. We're not just negotiating with the talentban that's the story. The truth of the matter is we're

talking to all Afghans. So we've spoken with the President Ghani I spoke to him on Friday night or Friday morning, UH, speaking with the opposition, those folks that are not inside the government's speaking with Taliban officials. We have Massa Khalilasade has worked all across Afghanistan with I'M when I was there last, I met with njo's, I met with women's groups,

a broad swath of Afghanistan. We want them to take their country back, and we want to reduce what is for us tens of billions of dollars a year and expenditures and enormous risk to your kids and your grandkids who are fighting for America. We we think there's a path to reduce violence, achieved reconciliation, and still make sure that the American counter terrorism effort in Afghanistan UH has a value in the potential to reduce risk here in

the States. Before the next presidential election in the United States, would you expect we reduced, reduced our troops in Afghanistan. That's my directive from the President United States. He's been unambiguous, and the endless Wars draw down reduced. It won't just be us, UH, those of you who have served, no that resolute support has countries from all across Europe and around the world. So on Russia, Um, you've met with Mr Putin any times? I assume a few times, Yes, sir.

And any impressions of him that you might convey, is he very smart, very tough? Does he understand English that you convey your thoughts to him in English? Or does he have an interpreter? I think I think he speaks English plenty. Well, Okay, Look, he's he's very clear about the things that are in Russia's interest, the things they're

working on. Uh. You know, we had a strategic dialogue with them, Uh, that we hope will build into something that handles a broad set of proliferation issues, not just nuclear proliferation issues, but a broad array of proliferations. We hope China will will join that set of conversations. We think today's in today's world, these are humans need to have China be part of them. And I hope that President Putin will support us, and I think he will. You were the head of the CIA at the beginning

of this administration. Do you have any doubt that the Russians interfered with our lance presidential election? Oh? None, none, Okay, So, um have been the one before that, and the one before that, and the one before that, and the one in ten. People forget we've had an election since st ip. People say, oh, we have to protect the good people who ran in and cared a lot about us protecting that one. We did so very effectively, and we'll do so again. And it's not it's the last thing. I

just I know this town. You know exactly what will get reported, just so you know it. Anxious Russia. That's bad English, try and correct it. Um. There are there are more nations than just Russia who are attempting to undermine Western democracy. That has been true since the founders I created this great nation, and so we have to be ever vigilant. There is legislation that's passed the House and now in the Senate to um and give more resources to keep the Russians from being able to do

this again. Is the administration supportive of the legislation and which seems to be blocked right now in the Senate. Yeah, I don't know the details of the legislation. I'm convinced the State Department has all the resource resources it needs to perform It's part of that function. We we have what we need we have the authorities we need, we have the money we need. It's the burden is on

me to execute. And have you communicated to Mr Putin that we do not like what he's done before and he shouldn't do it again on a number of occasions. And what's his response? Noted? Okay, that's a that's a diplomatic term for I hear you, brother, so um okay, Um. He doesn't admit anything, I assume, but okay, So with respect to England, there's a new prime minister. You have met bars Johnson before? I have. I met him when I was CI director and uh I believe he was

Foreign Secretary at the time. When there's the current Trump administration, support a Brexit or would you prefer that there be a remain or do you not take a position on uh? A confidence in the British people? Okay, Now, the British ambassador had to resign because his cables were leaked by somebody. Um, do you tell your own ambassadors they should be a little bit more careful about what they say to you because somebody could leak what they're alrighty is that a

worry not at all? And if I did, they'd ignore me, okay, I mean right, they have a duty, they have responsibility. Our task is for them to tell us what they're seeing. Than we expect that they'll report them accurately, truthfully, candidly, and then our mission is to make sure they don't end up in the Washington Post. Now abas suspect to Mexico, Um, we have been concerned about people coming over the border.

Are you confident that the Mexican government is now doing what it can to keep more people from not coming over the border. They are, So they're doing enough, you think, or you know, it's not enough, and they still have a high side of two thousand every day. It's uh, it's unacceptable, and so they need to do more. We need to do more. Congress needs to change the rule.

We have to create a deterrence, right, and it has to be the case that those who want to come here legally can and those who want to come by some other mechanism choose not to because they understand that it not they're not going to find a way. I remember this as a member of Congress. People would call my office and say, uh, hey, we we we we live in pick a country around the world. They say

they want to come here and get citizenship. And you know, anyway, I won't tell you the joke I told, but but the simplest way to do would be go to Mexico and come on. But what you want to encourage them to do is father paperwork, go through the lawful process, becomes citizens. Were the most welcoming nation in the world. We will always be. But it's not the case that we can be lawless or have our sovereignty broken through having this mass immigration in a non lawful mechanism. It's

truly there's a national security risk. Speaking of south of the border Venezuela. Would the U. S. Ever send troops in if that was necessary to keep further violence from occurring there? So you started trying to get me at the beginning, now you're trying at the end. The President is pretty clearly we're gonna do all that it takes

to make sure the Venezuelan people get democracy back. And that's the that's the mission said how President Trump has sometimes tweeted things that are not favorable about some people working for him. Uh, he's never tweeted anything unfavorable about you. It's early, it's early, So what is the what is the secret of your success in your relationship with President You didn't know him before he was elected, did you?

I did not. I met him the day I uh, I interviewed the BCI director just and who recommended you to be CI in director? I don't know for sure, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I mean, the CIA doesn't have the ability to figure out who recommended you. Should you should thing that you've never believed that I only does for an s Okay, I got I've never

been able to convince you. But somebody recommended you. You had an interview with I think the Vice president was likely the person who who I had known and served with as a member of Congress. And did you say I like the C I a job, but I'd like to be Secretary State or this came at of a surprise to you. It was a complete surprise me. I was and I was honored to serve as the director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Okay, so some people say

that you should run for the Senate from Kansas. In fact, Mitch McConnell I think has twisted your arm a few times to do that. Um, can you say definitively that you will not run. The filing date is June of two thousand twenty. You probably know so any Uh, I didn't, but thank you for reminding. Okay, so would you consider that? Are you putting that off the table for a while or it's it's off the table. As as a practical matter, I'm going to serve as Secretary of State every day

that I get the chance to do so. Look, uh, we all serve at the president of the pleasidents. You talked about that Director Coates, who I have enormous respect for be leaving the administration, saying he's served nobly. Uh. There there's a time for everyone, and I hope I get to do this for a while longer. UM. My experience is that sometimes when people get close to a president, they see the job up close, they say, well, well,

I can do that job too. Has that occurred to you that maybe, um, you could do the job, And would you have any interest in running for president at some point in your life? I try to answer this consistently. I have never been able to predict what my next gig will be, and I suspect that's that's the case with respect to this. I I will say this, um, the service that I've had the chance to do. I'm almost twenty years now in federal service. Eighteen years of

federal services. In my time in the army, uh and then in Congress and now in the executive branch. It has been a blessing. I hope I've left things a little bit better, and I I do feel an obligation. America has given me an awful lot. Enough I thought I could do a good turn. Um, there's there's nothing I wouldn't consider doing for America. Okay, Let's suppose president

is re elected. Would you be willing to serve as Secretary of State for one to three or four years of a second term or have you thought about that yet? I haven't thought about it yet. Uh. You know, hard to know, hard to answer those questions that the real question is what the president still want. Mike Pompeo is a Secretary of State. Okay. So, Um, when you have decisions with the president, meetings with him? Does he best

with oral communications, written communications? And what's the process by which decisions are made? Is it through the NFC or informal So there's a very robust NSC process. When I brief him myself, I always prefer to have documents the

way I prefer to receive information. UM, so I almost always bring something, uh one page summary at the very least that says here, here's the outline of what it is that I think are the priorities and how we should think about how we should frame this particular problem. And then the President does like to engage in oral exchanges, and I've found them to be elucidating for myself. I

often learned things as well. He's very focused on where the money is, how we use economic leverage to achieve our diplomatic ins Now, except when Henry Kissinger was both Secretary of State and NASH Security Advisor at the same time, generally there's been some tension between Secretaries of State and nashcurity advisors. How is your relationship with John Bolton? Yeah, I mean, look, there's there's always tension among leaders of

different organizations. We we come at these things with from a different viewpoint, uh, Bassator Bolton has is responsibility to try and make sure all the is are vetted and get to the President, Secretary, Treasury, Secretary of Energy, UH, the Intelligence cann each have their mission sets. There's we have robust libty debates. I agree with each of them

often and disagree with most of them sometimes. So in your career, you were first in your class at west Point, So how do you become first in your class at west Point? That's pretty tough. I mean what happened to all the other people who were second, third, and fourth that they become anything? And so one of them is the Secretary Defense, right, So he's a classmate of mine as well. I give him hard time about our relative order of finish. Kay, Now you went to Harvard Law school?

Why did you abandon the practice of law? Had a great opportunity. I was practicing law Williams and Connolly here had great partners I worked for I Unlike many, I actually enjoyed my time there. I was older that I had gotten to law school a little bit later, but had a chance to start a business in Kansas with UH,

three of my best friends in the whole world. And so started a company that was a machine shop in which you dot Kansas and UH spent the next fifty You once told me you were negotiating with somebody on the opposite side of that deal, and that person wound up to be your wife. Is that true. It's true. She took my money twice. Okay, So what is the best part about being Secretary of State? I love Susan, by the way, so we're still married. It's Everything's good. Yeah,

you had to say that otherwise I did. I have friends in the room who are taking texting here right now. All right. So the best part of me being a Secretary State is what you get a chance to help ordinary Americans understand what we're doing and try and deliver them an environment where a few or a few of their kids have to be uh, an armed conflict. That's our mission, said every day, to get American outcomes through diplomacy. And what's the worst part about being Secretary of State?

I haven't figured that out yet, right I'm I'm enjoying every minute of what I'm doing. I truly feel that I've been given this, uh this remarkable privilege to serve and I'm trying to do my best to deliver on that every day. Okay, So thank you very much for your service, and thank you very much for coming a character. Thank you all very much. That was U S Secretary of State Mike Pompeio speaking to Carlisle Group co founder David Rubinstein,