Lonnie Bunch

very proud and glad to be with you today. And I should disclose that I was the chairman of the Smithsonian at one point. I'm still on the board of the Smithsonian, but I will ask tough questions anyway. I appreciate that. So, now that you've been the secretary for a while, um, is the job as good as you thought it was going to be? And you're happy you haven't. I think that no one knew what it was like

to lead during a pandemic. But what has happened is as a result of that, I really learned the wonders of the Smithsonian. When it comes together, the Smithsony is often a conglaborative, museums and research centers um and that doesn't always blend. But because of this pandemic, people have come together, cross lines, brought their creativity scientists, historians, educators.

So for me, I'm really glad because I'm getting to see what the Smithsonian does, even in the most difficult of times, when it comes together and brings its creativity to bear. How did you operate during the COVID nineteen situation? What did you do in terms of operating the zoo and all the research institutions and your nineteen museums. What I realized is that once we shut down the buildings, that I needed the Smithsonian to still be operating. So

we really put went to everything online. We created educational opportunities, portals that would allow people to educators to get our science, our history, our art. We've made it so that scholars could continue to do the research, the scientists could do the work they needed to do. But the reality is that we recognize that now as a result of this virus, we've got to rethink so much about the Smithsonian. We've got to rethink about how we tell a work more effectively.

We've got to think about once people come back. What does social distancing meaning a museum? Because, as you know, the major thing that happens in a museum is people who don't know each other come together around an artifact like the Shuttle. UM. And so are people gonna want to come together um in a time of pandemic? So we're really thinking about how do we create community even in with social distancing. So the Smithsonian is not yet open. You have two parts of it open. This museum is

open and the National Zoo is opened, right, Um? Why did you open those two? First? I wanted to be able to figure out how do we open the rest of the Smithsonian. The zoo because it's outdoors, um, and that was easier UM. But also this museum because it's large and it also has parking, because there were issues of transportation. So basically these were the test case which will then if the if the virus then begins to go down to allow us slowly to open the rest

of the Smithsonian. Now where did you operate from when COVID nineteen was prevalent, Well, be coast there were some guards that had to work. I thought I would go into the office, but I realized that if I went to the office, so many other people would come in. So I ended up working from home and I learned to master zoom um and sort of other technologies I'm still fighting with, but basically work from home every day now.

Museums have been around for thousands of years, but now with zoom and virtual technologies, why don't we really need museums. Why can't you just look on the screen and see what you need to say? I think there is something powerful about the object. I mean, the fact that you can see the Space Shuttle um right in front of

you is really powerful. You feel the connection. I've seen throughout my career people stand in front of a copy of the Emancipation Proclamation or Chuck Berry's candy Apple red Cadillac, and it stimulates conversation. So that, in essence, what we should do with the Smithsonian is find the right tension between tradition and innovation. We have to recognize that the traditional stuff is good and we want people to enjoy it. But now we also recognized it as a result of

the pandemic, more people are comfortable receiving content digitally. So it really means that we just need to find the right balance between serving the millions that will never get to a museum, and the millions that actually come to the Smithsonian. Now, during the COVID closing of the museums, we had some race riots in Washington and other cities around the country, and reaction to the death of a number of people uh such as George Floyd. Um, how

is the Smithsonian reacting to that? I thought it was really important to realize that in some ways, the Smithsonian is the glue that holds a nation together, and it's the kind of place that can bring people of different political points of view together. So when when all of the sort of angst and the pains happened as a result of the murder of George Floyd and others, I realized that the Smithsonian had a role to pay, that we should be a place that would help the public

grapple with the things that have divided us. So one of the things we did was we got support from Bank of American created a program that looks at race, community and our shared future to basically say, how do we create town halls an opportunity for people to come together to talk about what is divided us? How do we use the resource of the Smithsonian our expertise on African American culture to give people the kind of historical

guidance to help them live their lives. Now, the Smithsonian itself, what about the diversity in the Smithsonian workforce and your executives who helped run the museums. I think the Smithsonian, like many places, has a lot of work to do. UM. I'm very pleased that we've got some diverse leadership. UM, we've got strong, diverse, playful, and different parts of the Smithsonian. But I think that the Smithsonian needs to do a better job because if we're going to help the public

grap with these issues, we've got to model it. Now. There's a story about the secretary of the Smithsonian when they had the Lafayette Park riots or whatever you wanna call them, that he was wandering around looking for artifacts he could pick up and take to the Smithsonian. Any

truth of that, Old curators can't break their habits. I was down um at Lafayette Square talking to people looking at some of the materials on the walls, collecting some for the Smithsonian, but really directing others, saying here's some stuff we should have. Well, you're walking around there and you're saying I'm the secretary of the Smithsonian. Can I have this? And the police are saying, how sure? I had to show my idea? Okay, so you've got you

didn't get arrested. So what's the biggest challenge you have at the Smithsonian right now other than getting ready for an opening again after COVID, what's the biggest challenge of fundraising? Gillingly, Members of Congress, what is the biggest I think first of all the challenges that to make sure that the Smithsonian has the stable funding it needs. Because of the pandemic, We've lost millions of dollars. People aren't going to the restaurants and shops, which has an impact on our research

and on staff. So really trying to make sure we have the strongest financial model, because what it really means is we've got to rethink some things. So rather than just reopen our shops, we've got to build more e commerce. So this is really allowing us to think creatively about what the Smithsonian should be. So let's talk about your background a moment um. You grew up in New Jersey, in the Garden State, Okay, in the Garden State, and what did you want to be when you're growing up,

I assume not the secretary of the Smithsonian, right. I didn't want I didn't know what the Smithsonian was, but I wanted to do something with history. I've always loved history. And the story that is an absolutely true story, is that my grandfather died the day before I turned five, and he would read to me, and he would read books and one day was reading a book and it had a picture of school children, um and it was probably from the eighteen sixties, and he said to me

that the picture said unidentified children. And then he said something I've never forgotten. He said, isn't it a shame people could live, their lives, die, and all that says it's unidentified. And that got me trying to figure out how do I understand what their lives were like? And I began to look at photographs as a little kid and try to imagine what were their jobs? Were they happy? And it got me interested in history. So that was the first step. And the second step was growing up

in the town I grew up in. There were very few African Americans. In fact, I was only African American in my elementary school, and there were people that treated me horribly and others that treated me wonderfully. And I thought, if I understood the history of this town, maybe i'd understand me. When you were younger, your father would drive you to the South, but you couldn't stop in many places except one place that he did take you. So we would drive from New Jersey to visit my mother's

family in North Carolina. And this was in jim Crow Era. So we would load the carp with food and blankets because he knew we couldn't stop. Um and what he was the only driver in those stop because did no place they would let black people stop. Um And so I remember he was falling asleep, and he pulled off, and he pulled into a motor court. Um And and he pulled in, and my mother my brother were asleep, and I was watching him, and he went out to smoke a cigarette and I noticed he was standing under

a sign that said white only. And I was terrified. I thought something's gonna happen, and I was just the wreck. He finally comes back in the car. He recognizes that I'm really worried, and he said to me something I've never forgotten. He said, you know, this is my America too, And it reminded me that no matter what happened, this is part of my country and I want to do whatever I can to make it fairer. And did he ever bring it to the Smithsonian? And why did he

bring you to the the Smithsonian? For me, when we used to go south, we would go past the museums, would say museums in Richmond and Petersburg. And like many kids, I was a Civil War buff and so I wanted desperately to stop, and he would always find an excuse not to stop um. And on the way back, I remember taking out a map and plotting, saying, Okay, they're twenty miles before we get to Richmond or Petersburg, and I would sort of alert him, but he would always

keep going. But then instead of driving straight to New Jersey, he pulled into Washington, and he pulled in front of the Smithsonian, and he said, here is a place where you can go learn about yourself in a museum and not worry about the color of your skin. So for me, the Smithsonian was always a place of fairness that for a twelve or thirteen year old kid, this was a place that said to me, here you can be who you want, You can learn all you want and not

worry about the color of your skin. So being secretary in a way was my way of thanking an institution that embraced me when a few places did. So, you came to Washington get your undergraduate education at American University, and I did my graduate work there. So you're an African American mayle. And this was the nine seventies. So are there lots of job opportunities? Uh, there are very few teaching jobs. Um. And I remember at the end of my graduate career. UM, I was broke. I was

living on a teaching assistant salary. And there was a returning student, she was forty years old, um, and she said to me, you should go down to the Smithsonian because her husband worked there and you can maybe get a job. And I remember saying to her, who works at the smith selling it's way you take dates because it's free. I mean that was my notion of the Smithsonian. Well, I went down and the man her husband was the head of science, David Challenger, and he introduced me to

the secretary. As still in ripley, I didn't know the secretary was and I'm not going to get a job, so I'm in jeans. I've got a big afro, and I sit there because I'm not gonna get a job, very comfortable. And we talked for two and a half hours. Then he says, you know, we might want to hire you, and I could really I said, I wouldn't mind working at the Museum of History and Technology. And he said to me, we don't have any jobs there. We only

have a job at the Air and Space Museum. And I said, I'm a nineteenth century historian, I know nothing about air space and I hate airplanes. And then he said language that was so instructive to me as a secretary. He said, young man, how much money are you making now? And I told him. He said, you make four times that if you become and work for me at the Air and Space Museum. I said, I'll become an Air and Space employee. And that's really how my career began.

By luck. You also met your wife there. Aeron Space was everything I met my wife there. I learned about how to be a curator there, um I learned about the wonders of the Smithsonian. So for me, my whole life has been shaped in part by the Smithsonian. So you were recruited away for a while to go to California and the museum there, and what was that um? I went away to run to be the first curator of the California African American Museum, was the first state

funded museum that explored issues of race. And I went there before the Olympics of four. So my big job was to do a major exhibitional history of blacks in the Olympics. You know, the Smithsonian taught me how to be a scholar, didn't really teach you how to be a curator. You came back, but then you were recruited away to run the Chicago Historical Society. So we moved

to Chicago. Is that right? That's right? I was. I was at American History for twelve years and wasn't gonna leave, and Chicago recruited me, and I really wasn't planning ongoing. But I had a meeting with the mayor and the governor of Illinois and they said, this is a city that has been tortured by race, and if you could come and be the only African American running one of our major institutions and do well, what an impact you

could have. And that appealed to me, so I came back, and I came to Chicago and loved it and had planned to stay there the rest of my career. Um, when I got the call to think about would you like to come back and help build the Nashville of African American History and Culture. So there was a secretary then who called you, and that was Larry S Larry Small, and he said, come back and build this museum. And you came back and you ultimately took the job. But

why didn't you take it? Because there was no money, there was no land, there was no plan, and did you know all that? You know? I wasn't sure how many knows there were. Um. I knew that there was no plan, and I knew that there was no site, but I didn't know there were no staff and um. But what I realized is that being an African American

running a major museum in Chicago nurtured my soul. I was really happy, but I realized that if I could help build this museum, we could really both nurture the souls of my ancestors, but we could help America really grap with race. And that's what brought me back. Now. The museum opened right the for President Obama left office and that was two and a very memorable ceremony. But before we got to that ceremony, you had to get an architect, to build a building, get a site, raise

the money, and get the artifacts. So let's go through that. UM. Let's take the money. How much the cost to build that museum? The museum basically cost five and fifty million dollars to build, um, and we raised about six to do that. Half of it was paid by the federal government, in half um by wonderful philanthropists and donors. Did you ever think you could raise that much from the private sector when you started? When I told my mother that I had to raise that amount of money, she said,

that's more money than God can count. So I wasn't sure, Um. But one of my great strengths is to be able to sort of look at the big picture and then put my head down and do the work. And so slowly but surely it began to work. So when you got the money from the Congress, and you got the money from the private sector, and then you had to figure out where the are you gonna put in the museum and artifacts? How many artifacts did you inherit um? Zero? Um?

We had no artifacts whatsoever, and at some point I thought, well, do we just do it without artifacts? But it's the Smithsonian. People come to see the rights fly or the Ruby Slipper, So we needed to find these objects. And I didn't know exactly how to do it. And one day I sort of fell asleep in front of television and I woke up an antique road show was on. I had never heard of it, and so I suddenly said, what

a great idea. So I sold the idea called it Saving African American Treasures, and we took curators and conservatis from around the Smithsonian and went around the country and help people preserve grandma'sles show or that nineteent century photograph. And then people would bring things out and say do you want this? And suddenly we found amazing things that I wasn't sure we could find. How many artifacts totally

did you get? We collected over forty artifacts, of which about four thousand were on display, and seventy percent of them came from people's came from basement's trunks and attics of people's homes. Okay, and how many people have visited so far? Over seven and a half million people, and it's one of the few museums at the Smithsonian up to now where you don't you can't just walk in because you need tickets because it's demand is so great. Um and did you expect the demand be that great?

I did, and I knew it would be popular. It's the Smithsonian, but it really has become a pilgrimage site for many people, for African Americans, for non African Americans. And we expected four thousand people a day. We were getting eight thousand people a day. So we had to actually say you have to have tickets to get people in because the crowds were so great. So every congressman and center is calling it for tickets. Him, I am

everybody's best friend. Let's go back to the opening day A right, so you've worked on this for how many years? Eleven years? Eleven years? You started with nothing? It opens in September of team and who was there? Who were the dignitaries? It became a who's who? I mean? On

the stage was president and Mrs Bush, president of Mrs Obama. UM. I was seated next to John Lewis, UM, the Chief Justice was there, other super senior people from the Smithsonian, Um and in the audience were who's who who's almost every political figure was there, so many people from entertainment

and sport. And what I was so moved by is the people who wanted to participate in the program, Oprah Winfrey and Will Smith and Robert de Niro, so that it really became more than I could have ever imagined. It was less an opening of a museum and more a celebration of a culture. So were you worried that something would go wrong that day? I was terrified. I was terrified that um I would mess up. I was

terrified that somebody would UM not enjoy themselves. I was terrified that we wouldn't get the crowds that I hoped, and instead we got tens of thousands of people on the mall. Um it became an opportunity where I thought some of the best speechmaking I've ever heard. I thought President Bush gave a powerful speech about how um a great nation confronts it's just three doesn't run from it.

President Obama talked, oh just beautifully about what this meant to him and his family, but clearly the late John Lewis stole the show, talked about how this museum was the culmination of the civil rights movement for him, and that this was really something that he was proudest of. And I'll be honest, I was so grateful to be able to help fulfill his dream. It was just a

special day. President Bush forty three had signed the legislation with approved the museum, and President Obama was president when it was open. I think he had to you make sure it's open while I'm in office. He did. He would say to me, you've got to let me clip cut the ribbon, and so that was great. I would go to construction people and say I was talking to the President. He says, we got to move a little quicker. So okay. So most people don't have a chance to

do two great things in life. One great thing is pretty good for people. You built this museum. You deserve the lion's share of the credit, if not all the credit taken from nothing to this great museum. It's very popular and so forth. Why did you want to be Smith's of the Smithsonian secretary? Because, as your mother would say to you, what do you need that for? You already have a great job. And besides, you have the

best opposite in Washington. You have a great view of the Washington Monument at the top of the African American History and Culture Museum. Why did you want this job because you told me to what I What I really realized is that I loved what I did, and I knew that I had the best view. I could see everything. Uh. The story is, I took President Obama through the museum and he came to my office and he said, you got a better view than I do. And I said,

we only worked eight years. I worked eleven um and but I realized that I didn't need to accomplish anything so I could give everything to the Smithsonian. This was really my opportunity to say, how do I bring, you know, more than twenty five years of Smithsonian experience to the four How do I give back to the place that has meant so much to me? And how do I help the Smithsonian really rethink itself as the twenty one

century institution. Why do you regard this as saw an important job for you to do because of you're an African American, because you're an American? Why do you care about the Smithsonian so much? In part as an American? The Smithsonian is this amazing treasure that it really is a reservoir that the public can dip into to not just understand the past, but to have a better sense about who we are now and really point us towards

a better future. It is a reservoir that says, you want to understand about space, We're here to do that. You want to understand about our history, We're also able to help you do that. You want to see the creativity of people artistically, We're here to do that as well. So in some ways, the Smithsonian really is a great source of information and creativity that I want the public

to really draw from. And so I feel honored to be the secret I feel humble, to be honest to be the Secretary because every day I learned something new, and I want the public to be able to learn from the Smithsonian every day. Lonnie Bunch, Secretary of the Smithsonian, on the David Rubinstein Show. A period peer conversations, and that's it for this hour of Bloomberg Best. I'm Ed Baxter and I'm Denise PELEGRENI. This is Bloomberg. Yeah,