Anne Wojcicki

solve genetic health care problems. So for those people that have not done twenty three and me yet as a test kit, tell us what twenty three and me actually is. So twenty three and Me is a company that allows you to see your own DNA, but it also helps you understand what are your genetic health risks? What is it that your potentially predisposed to something like type two diabetes, h fibrillation. But it also helps you understand your ancestry. So where are you from the world, how are you

connected to other people? And we make it so shoal like. One of the big differences with twenty three and Me is like we have a it's a social platform, so you could share like you and I could share our data together, we could potentially be relatives. You can find new relatives on twenty three ME and you can also share some of your health information. So when people take this test, and I should say I took it recently, I haven't gotten the results back. I'm nervous about whether

I'm going to get good or bad results. But all you do is you spit into a little tube, you mail it back to you, and then how do you get out of somebody's saliva all this information? Isn't it? It's it's amazing that it's just it's a little tube of spit. So you spit in the tube. It actually takes about ten minutes to spit um. You have cells from your cheek and you know, cells cells that come into that spit into the saliva, and you send it back to us. We um you know, take part of

that sample. We extract the DNA and we run it on Jean chip. You know, it's a technology that Alumina has made and that's part of it's you know, thanks to this company. It's a very affordable test. You know, it's under two dollars if you want to get the health and the ancestry, and it takes a couple of weeks for us to turn it around, and then you

have your genome. And what twenty three really has done is built all of the tools, all the interactive software tools, so that you can navigate and explore what does the genome mean for you? So when you give the results back to people, what are they typically most surprised to learn? We're first and foremost really concerned about health returning health results, and so we spend a lot of time thinking about, Okay, if I'm going to tell you your genetically high risk

for Alzheimer's, how are you going to respond to that? Um, We have all kinds of additional layers of consent, We have you know, physician videos around it. But I would say what the biggest surprises for people is that they find out that they have additional family members that they did not know about, or the family members that they have they did not necessarily you know, they find out

that they're not necessarily related UM or genetically related. So I would say the family connections are frankly actually become the biggest surprise for me. UM. I would say, when the other biggest questions is like, what is that definition of race? So a lot of people find out that they have African ancestry or they have Jewish ancestry, but they never knew that they had either those. So then what really is that definition of being Jewish or what's

that definition of being African American? With the co discovery of DNA with James Watson and uh, he once told me that he had his human genome mapped early, one of the early people, but he said he didn't want to know if he had a predisposition to Alzheimer's, And I wonder or a lot of people have that view, which is, I'd like to know what my genes would be, but don't tell me if I have a predisposition Alzheimer's, because not much I can do about it. Is that right?

I think it's it's actually I would say you have sort of two camps, and both camps feel very strongly.

You have a group of people who very much want to know everything about themselves, and they don't necessarily a report like Alzheimer's doesn't necessarily have clinical utility in the capacity that you're going to have a treatment or you're going to change anything, but it has high personal utility, meaning that those people might decide they create a will they retire earlier or one of the main things that we see people do is they go and they buy

long term care insurance. So what we see is that they take a personal utility and they're actually proactive with that information. Now, in the consumer world, what people like is repeat customers. And so if I did as I just did, I took a twenty three and me test. Once I get the results, how do you monetize me in the future? What are there are different things you can sell to me? Or because that's what usually companies like to do is go back to their customers and

sell them something else. So what do you have interesting? You know, I could look back like if we if I ever do a retrospective on twenty three and me, was it a mistake to not have a subscription product earlier? So we do today have a subscription product. In early early stages of the subscription product, the original I ideas with twenty three me was that we'd get you in in the simplest way possible because we didn't want to

overly confuse the messaging about a subscription or not. But it was just it was so unknown, like why do you even want your genetic information. So the idea was like I needed to see the market just with like my early adopters is like, just like what is this information? And make it as simple as possible. But what I've seen over the last sixteen years is that my customers are really engaged. So for example, over eighty five of our customers are consenting for research, like really high numbers

of people opt into research. Over fift of my customers are coming back on a quarterly basis. So if I subscribe to one of your subscription services and I have a predisposition to disease A or be, you're likely to send me information on that from time and time. Is that what you mean? We'll potentially update that report or well potentially said you additional But the main thing we

did we recently acquired a company called Lemonade Health. And the reason why we acquired Lemonade Health was two folds, like mostly to fit answer the question that you just asked. Here is like you find out your higher risk, Well, now what can you do? So first and foremost will be able to have medical protocols about how can we

actually deliver genomic based care. No one has adopted genomic medicine, So how can I adopt genomic based care in a primary care setting to really help think about how do I engage, Like how do I help you be healthy? So, first and foremost we're going to like solve that question

for you. Second is really about the engagement side. You find out your higher risk for heart disease, well, like an article just came out about caffeine consumption in heart disease or sleep in heart disease, I want you to update me. So the company then will start to update people to say, hey, here's the latest about what's happening. Here's things that are in your hands that you should actually start to go and think about. Now, you have a fairly distinguished family. I'd like to talk about it

for a moment. It's been written about. I recall your father was a physics professor in the head of the physics department at Stanford. Your mother is a distinguished educator and wrote a book about how to raise distinguished, accomplished children. She sure did. One of your sisters is an epidemiologist at the University of California, professor. Another sister runs YouTube. And then you are the founder of twenty three and so what was it like growing up on the Stanford

campus with all this talented around you. I think the best thing about how we grew up is we were surrounded by an academic culture of people who really prioritized education and learning, but also really encourage people to pursue their passions. So what I what I love about all my sisters, Like we both you know, Susan and I happened to be in higher profile roles, but everyone is pursuing something that they really love and they really enjoy doing.

So I think that the best thing we all got from our parents was to pursue your passions, no matter how esoteric, or whether or not they're monetize able or if it's you know, an academic kind of pursuit. Right. So I grew up in the Stanford campus. I assume you're an all A student. Your sisters are all a's. So where did you want to go to school? In college? You know, I kind of debate. I mean, my my

father went to Harvard. Like the realities, you know, things based on your parents, and my father was really lucky. He went to Harvard after he came from he came from Poland. He was in school and he went early to Harvard. Um My mom went to Berkeley, so I knew. My parents always encouraged me. They would say, you know, go, like it's important to go, it's important to have education,

it's important to go to a good school. But there's a lot of good schools, and I would say today people over emphasized, like you know what, exactly what school I have to go to. There's so many great schools, and frankly, the great school finds you. Um So, I always wanted to go. I thought Harvard would be fascinating. My oldest sister she went to Harvard. Um I used to stay with her at Harvard. I just like I was fascinated by people who wore tweed and had leather patches.

Um So I decided not to end up going to Harvard. I went to Yale for on weekend, and I fell in love with Yale and I'm a yalely I just loved it. Okay, And what did you study there? I studied biology. And did you want to go to medical school? I did. I thought about going to medical school. I loved research, but I wasn't Um I can't say that I was an incredibly talented researcher. I would say that detail in that precision. There was a lot of wonderful post docs in the lab who helped me get through

my research. But I love the science. I love molecular biology, like it keeps me up at night that you have this incredible set of processes going on right now in your body. She went to Yale, you graduated. He decided not going to go to medical school. But what did you do? Well? I and I actually always you know, and I joke a lot. I'm on the Kaiser Permanent,

a school medicine board, and I sometimes joke. I was like, at some point, I'll still go to medical school, like I, I mean, it's like the most it's the most interesting job you can have, I think, But um, but I decided not to, and very randomly I got a job. I randomly got my resume sent to the Wallenberg family

in Sweden and they offered me a job. I didn't know who they were, I didn't know what it was, um and but I thought it was interesting, like it was like a one year opportunity paid me forty dollars. I thought I would never make that much money again, so I figured I would go and do it for a year. So where did you do this? So? I worked in New York for almost ten years. Um. So I started off with the Wallenberg's and then I went to a series of hedge funds afterwards. Right so, um,

nothing could be higher in life than working for hedge funds. Right? No, exactly how did you feel there was a higher calling than working for a hedge fund at the point I was my my my best friend's father used to call me a leech on society. Um so, and I took up fondly. I was like, look, the reality for me is I was learning, Um, there was no better education about it was like getting a PC. Like I went

to medical meetings every week. I went, I was speaking with experts every day, Like I knew the health care system so well. But I did feel after ten years, I was investing in a system that was fundamentally not really like not really the system that I wanted to be part of. And um, and then I wanted to do something. I feel like, you can't. If you're going to complain about a problem, then you should, you know, figure out how to fix it. So what year did

you decide to start? Twenty three? And me, it started thinking about a lot in two thousand five, and then it was two thousand two six that we actually started. So for people who haven't paid attention to the genome world, in the year two thousand, I think it was the federal government said that two researchers, Francis Collins working at n I H and Craig Ventor, who has had a

private company, had basically discovered the human genome. So that happened, and I think two thousand President Clinton said that was a tie, and they both given credit for it, leaving aside the intramural fighting that had gone on before. So it was then thought, Okay, the world is gonna be so much better now that we know that human genome. It's been mapped. There will be no more to Jesus, we can fix all diseases. But what happened for the ten years or so or fifteen years afterwards, it didn't

seem like much happened. But this is that's such an interesting question, um, and this is also something that plagues me. Like Francis Collins and President Clinton at the time came out and said this human genome, like sequencing, the human genome is going to transform how we diagnose treat and prevent all human disease. So it's a huge statement about what's going to happen. And I would argue one of the biggest issues that's happened today is there has not

been adoption of genetic technology. And I would say point back to again part of my dissatisfaction with the investing world is part of the reason why it has not been adopted is that a lot of genetic information is about prevention. So for instance, if I tell you are likely to have an adverse event from this this antidepressant, or your potentially higher risk for atrial fib those are

not well monetized medical events. You can make a lot of money treating atro fibrillation, but you cannot make money in the absence of a disease. So, for instance, if I successfully keep you healthy to a hundred, you are not a profit center for the healthcare world. And so genetic information a lot of that potential is not really adopted in the primary care setting, in part because there's

not an assilium monetization path. So you're starting to see that more in cancer, you start to see it more in pregnancy related but it has not been widely adopted I would say the second thing is that the US is far far behind countries like the UK. So the UK has an incredibly impressive program called the uk Biobank where they have half a million people who have consented, who are participating in a nationwide program and it's amazing, like everyone including twenty three me uses the data that

comes out from the UK Biobank. The US has totally fallen behind. So we have a program called all of Us where we're trying to get people. It's supposed to be a million people, but the UK has already left prog us and said we have a five million person program. Now that's going to be, you know, running ahead. So the US and part there's also been a lot of politics around you know, how is this going to execute?

You know, what are the ethics on it? If we want to really capture the benefit of the human genome, you need a massive I would say multiple countries that come together and have like a hundred million people who come together so you can really understand what the code is. The US is obsessed not so much with the UK, but it's with China. So it is China ahead of us in this area or not? Well, China is crushing us too, but we don't know as much about what

they're actually doing. So I would say, like the one big worry that I always have is like China. China knows how to execute and they know how to lead on a program in China has made no um, no uncertain statements about their interest in genetics and that they want to be the world leader in this next the

genetic revolution. So China has made huge efforts. They have huge programs, and they also have something called the Beijing Genome Institute, which is an incredibly well funded you know, um, you know, well funded with the government and a massive sequencing shop where tons and tons of discoveries are being made and there's nothing in the U s or nothing

in the UK that's even comparable. As you look at the company you've created, and you look at what you've done with your life, how do you think you're having an impact on the world for the betterment of the world. I think in two ways. So one, I personally believe there's no more interesting challenge than trying to understand the

code of life. And I think that twenty three is frankly the best positioned entity public or not not public or you know, for profit or nonprofit, we are by far and away the best positioned entity to solve the question as to what does the human genome mean and how can you apply it to individuals? So one, I think we are going to be the lead in deciphering the human genetic code. Second, I transform people's lives, like it's what keeps me up at night, and it's also

what keeps me going. I tell someone that they're higher risk for breast cancer and that leads them to get amasectomy, and I can potentially prevent an early death, like that's amazing. Or I can reconnect to family members where they've been lost for years. Like. One thing twenty three ME does is that we generate incredibly meaningful information for individuals. By the way, all my twenty three and ME tasks I'm

waiting for they get the results soon. How can I be certain that nobody will know the results other than me? How can I be sure that you're not selling the data to somebody else? So we honor the fact that, like, this is your genome and you should do with it what you want. So that means, though I'm not going to prevent you from sharing it, I'm going to give you options. So we as we ask you, do you want to opt into research and over our customers are

now opting in so but it's not a default. We actually ask you like you have to elect that option. If you wanted to share your genetic information with me, you have that opportunity. But there's no defaults, like nothing is mandatory. So it's all about you being in control. So your company went public not too long ago through a spac process. I think it was a spact that was involved with Richard Branson and Virgin So any regrets

to backgoing public or throw us back? No, I mean it's interesting because it's it's definitely not you know, the most positive of market times. Um, but I loved I love the process, like being being public. The process of going public is a lot of work. And so when we decided about or we at least looked at opportunities to go public, Like one of the big considerations for me was how much time is it going to take

from me? And I wanted, like, I'm very much focused and very much of a CEO that like I like to operate and I like to be in the weed, like how are we executing? So I wanted to make sure I was minimizing times, like how much time is it going to take for the whole process? This back process is incredibly efficient. Um. I got incredibly lucky with Richard Branson. He's a very high quality investor. He has an incredibly educated team. He's actually invested in healthcare before.

He's run you know, benefits companies. He's had a care company in the UK, so he knows this space and he was specifically looking at healthcare in a consumer space. So I'm happy with the like the process was smooth and we ended up in a really successful situation. But many tech companies have seen their prices go down, so

you you have as well? I said, so does that bother you and you're saying, well, we'll come back, or what is your view generally on the the future of tech companies in terms of the valuations they once had. I think coming from Wall Street has given me a good perspective on this. You know, Wall Street is not

always a reflective of true value. And I can also say that there's like no shortage of opportunities that people have missed where there's a diamond in the gem like you know, or diamond the rough where I could look at like the early days of Google, or I could look at the early days of Amazon, where people did not really understand the story, and I would put us in that bucket. A lot of people don't quite understand

what we do. They either think are we ancestry. We also have a biotech side, which we haven't even talked about, is like how do you translate all this data into drug discovery? So we're complicated story. The market conditions are bad. You know, markets are efficient over time, You're largely seen as a consumer company, and consumer companies have relatively lower pe multiples tech companies and biotech companies when the market

comes back and higher multiple. So can you transform your company into being a tech or biotech company by working on disease solutions as opposed to just giving people their information? We are, Um, that's actually one of the beauties. So twenty three AM when we started the company, remember I said, it was like all about like exploring the genome. And so one of the things we do is we have this huge research arm like how can I help best

understand what the human genome means? And that's part of the whole process from the very beginning, is how do I consent people for research, engage them in research, learn about them, and then I have a whole analytics team and data science team that's in looking at all that data to see how do I translate it either as a consumer product back to you or actually now for research and discovery. So I have over a hundred people in a twenty three therapeutics arm of the business. We

have a major collaboration with GSK. We have over fifty programs that are in development and we have to actually in clinical trials, So we're a hundred Like absolutely, thinking about how people will benefit from the human genome is about actually translating that information into theory. And GSK is a very large healthcare company medical research company. What are

you doing specifically with him? Specifically it's on target identification, So we're specifically working with g s K to look at the data that twenty three is generated to see can we identify new novel drug targets. So you've built a successful company, but you might not want to run in for the next ten years, or do you? And if you didn't, would you want to go into government? At the president called you to serve our country? Would you go into government or would you start another company.

I love what I do and I feel like I have this luxury with twenty three ME that um, it's and it keeps evolving. You know, we started out just as a you know, started out a consumer company. We're thick in research, we got into drug discovering two fifteen,

and now we're getting to the delivery of care. So I've been really lucky with twenty three me that it's been endlessly interesting and I'm surrounded by incredibly talented, brilliant individuals where I learned from them, and what I always advised people to do is like you should keep you should take jobs where you're learning, and if you stop learning in a job, then you should quit. And like frankly, when people leave twenty three me, like I say, if

you're not learning anymore, you should move on. So I'm I'm hun on committed to twenty three. That said, my other passion is other direct to consumers, Like I want to build out a true consumer empowered healthcare world, like one that is outside of the existing system. And I do there's no greater force than government and the opportunity for government, So you know, there's always ideas, like I could always do a sabbatical. You have three talented sisters too,

very um accomplished parents. Your parents ever said, well, guess what your sister just did to kind of say you should work even harder and be more, even more accomplished. They put rivalries together, or you don't have that problem. No, they know my parents. My parents are lovely, and my sisters are you know, my sisters are quick to you know, make me humble. I mean, it's part of why I lived with my sisters. Like I had somebody over today, like I had we had a coffee chat that with

somebody in the company today who you know? We auction this off. And my sister was laughing. She's like someone paid money to eat with you. And I was like thanks, Like that wasn't the kinds of reminders I get from the family. So your mother wrote this book about raising talented children. Do you raise your children the way she raised you? I listen. I think each generation improves upon the last generation. So I think that we have taken um. I have I haven't. I couldn't read the whole book.

I read parts of the book, but I wrote part of I wrote the forward UM, and my my take on that was more to like give the reality, like the perspective from the child, Like I know my mother is telling you about how she raised us, but let me tell you about my mother, and so I look, I think it's it's my mom. My parents are incredible, Like I'm really grateful and there's lots of things that I learned from them, but I'm definitely not adopting everything

they did. If your children go to Harvard and rather than yeah, we'll be okay, let's not talk about that. I mean my kids, my kids. I want my kids to My kids are so interesting and so different, you know, I want them to be passionate. That's the only thing I care about is I want them to wake up every day and say, like, I love what I'm doing. And you would you be upset if they went into something important like private equity? Are you giving me the

job offer? Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen