All right, joining us now.
We're honored to have a pastor Chuck Baldwin of Liberty Fellowship in Montana. You can find the website at Libertyfellowship, mt from Montana dot com. Also Chuck Baldwin Live dot com. Thank you for joining us.
Sir David's quickly with you. Thank you.
It's been a long time since we've talked. Because of timing and scheduling and things like that, you're only able to do interviews in the afternoon. I wasn't able to do that at Info Wars.
But we're able to do that here.
So I want to get you back on with what is happening now. You've got a book that you're selling at your website. We'll get into that a little bit. But last time I interviewed you, we talked about another book that you and your son had done, Romans thirteen, and it seems like people did not understand Romans thirteen or I don't think that we would have gone through what we went through in twenty twenty with lockdown churches
and all the rest of stuff. I remember when we talked, you know, the standard line was you do whatever the government says unless they start infringing on your religious freedom and said the time, I don't believe that they're going to stand up for their religious freedom if they take that tact. And of course we saw when the lockdown happened under Trump that they didn't tell us a little bit about your opinion about what happened with that and the aftermath of it.
Well, I think what we saw was exactly the open
demonstration of what you and I had discussed. Yeah, that is that the Walton took the case of Romans thirteen, and you alluded to the book that my attorney's son and I wrote, Romans thirteen is true meaning of submission, And we took all of the verses in well not all, but the vast majority of the verses in both Testaments Old and Knew to show that nowhere does God command his people to submit to evil authority, and that doctrine of submission to civil authority, per the first couple of
verses of Roman Stepter thirteen, has made sheepy servants of the state out of what should have been and once were courageous, bold men of God, unafraid to speak truth to power and to resist the attempts of those in authority. To make slaves out of God's people. We are servants
to only one and that's Jesus Christ. So I think that the doctrine, the false doctrine of Romans thirteen, as it has been taught the not a part of the twentieth century and in the twenty first century, has produced exactly everything that we saw a demonstrated during the Covid tyranny. And I think the evidence of that still continues today. But you know, before, you know, it was always about
something that they consider to be non biblical. You know, if you are talking about abortion, if you are talking about the intrusion of our Fourth Amendment liberties and invasion of our privacy and the Second Amendment and all of these these issues constitutional issues, these Romans thirteen preachers in Christians would say, well, you know, God's called me to preach the Gospel, and I'm not going to preach that. I'm not going to get involved in all these quote
unquote political things. And when you know, when they tell me I can't preach the Gospel, then then I'll show you know, some resistance. And they would they would pu who any attempt to stand for basic fundamental God given liberties and they use Must thirteen as a cop out. Well, then COVID came along and guess what they said. You can't meet in your church services, you can't preach, you can't assemble, you can't observe your Resurrection Day services, observe
the birth of Christ. I mean all these are now, these are not constitutional issues. These are you know, basic fundamental biblical issues. And pastors just rolled over shut the churches, didn't have have, you know, their meetings, They shut down their operations entirely, and they proved that they are truly nothing more than slaves of the state. So I think that was a great wake up call to the condition of the church.
I agree, and a big part of that is that they want to at all costs avoid any kind of political controversy.
You don't do that.
And I appreciate that you speak to what people are living in their daily life and you say, this is how we think the biblical principles apply here. And I think that is something that sadly missing in most of the church. And we had a lot of people. There were a few churches that never closed, and I interviewed
some of those pastors. There were some churches that closed for a while then just kind of came to their senses or whatever and reopened up, and some of them talked about the fact that they got it wrong, that they interpreted that wrong, and they would never do it again. But there were some very big churches that did not go back, even though they opened up, and even though they had fights, they never went back and corrected their commentaries or their statements on their website or what they
told people about Romans thirteen. And I think that's very important. Yeah, I mean, we can all make mistakes. We can all make mistakes, but we need to be public about it. The way I look at it, a lot of people who shut down for four or five months and then opened up and then got into big fights with the government over it, they just kind of ignored what had happened those first four or five months.
I think that's kind.
Of like a pastor who's been caught an adulterous affair just kind of say, well, let's forget about that, will move on.
You know. Yeah, it's hard for I don't know why, but it's we've reached a point in our in our history were I don't know, somehow it's a sign of weakness or something if you acknowledge that you were wrong and what you taught from the pulpit. I mean, I've reme into this with the designers issue and big, big time. That's you know. But you know, for example, there was John MacArthur who recently passed away, a pastor of a large church in southern California, well known writer and broadcaster.
He was a man that four decades throughout his career, he would impune pastors around the country who would resist governmental usurpation of their power to intrude upon the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion, and go forth on even the freedom of assembly in certain cases, and he would castigate them as being disobedient to Romans thirteen.
And he was one of the most foremost advocates of the false doctumne of Romans thirteen in the country, and because of his influence, he impacted a lot of fellow pastors. Then when COVID hit and his church was hit personally there in California, you know how California was about everything, and so he actually reversed his position on that issue, and he challenged the authority of the state of California to close his church, and so forth, and he actually was willing to go to court to fight it. So
I admire him for doing that. But Bill, to your point, he never one time during all that period of contest between him and the State of California, he never one time public had got up and said, you know, I was wrong in the past. You know, all these other issues that men of God, you know, we're fighting a long time before I fought this issue. You know, they were fighting issues of freedom and faith for a long time, and some of them were paying a very heavy price,
were resisting, and he never took their side. He always condemned them for violating when I was thirteen. Now he's doing the same thing, and he's resisting the you know the I.
Remember when that happened.
He shut down from what was at March till about in July or whatever, and then they opened up. I think really the final straw when they said all right, all right, you can get together, but you can't sing. It's like, okay, we're done with this nonsense. But like you said, he didn't go back and change his commentaries or anything. And a year later you had Todd Friel, who was also fairly well known on YouTube and other
places and very connected to MacArthur. As they were getting ready to roll out the vaccine mandates in September, he said in August again, you know the Romans thirteen line, and he said, and look, John MacArthur says this, this is this, And I played the clip and I said, yeah, but that's not what John McArthur has been doing for the last year. Maybe you need to take a look at the difference between what he said in his former commentaries and what he's actually doing today. And I thought
that was what cod Friel said. I call him pinwheel freel because he said, if government tells you wear pinwheels on your head, you wear pinwheels on your head. It's like, yeah, but you don't have to become a pincushion for a poisonous kool aid injection.
That's the insanity of all this stuff.
But yeah, I think when I look at it, let me get your take on this, I look at it as from in a political sphere. When they become when they're installed in their office, government employees swear to pull the Constitution and so their authority comes from the Constitution and it comes from their fealty to it. And if they are in rebellion to the Constitution, they don't have any authority. And I see Romas thirteen in the same way that you know Romas thirteen. He talks about authority
coming from God. He's established these governments. Well, how do we know if it's a legitimate government. Well, we can take a look at what they're doing. And if what they're doing is in a rebellion to God, then they don't have authority. It's just like if they were rebelling against the Constitution.
What do you think I think I mean?
In our book, we make that, we make that very clear that Romans thirteen was not giving a blank check to civil authority to run roughshod over the God given liberties of the people. In fact, that that same passage in Romans chapter thirteen that talks in the early verses about submitted to the higher power. And you keep reading and they always stop at verse two, but reading it like for example of verse three, for rulers. Civil rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
That's right.
Well, so then be afraid the power do that which is good. That's out praise are the same for he is the verse verse four, he is the minister of God to be for good. So at the same time that Roman's thirteen tells us to admit to government, it's telling government that government has the responsibility to be good, righteous, and just in their implementation of law. And if they are not good, righteous and just in their implication of law, there is no implication in the duty of the Christian
to submit to that evil. I mean, so that's like saying, Okay, you know, if the government commands you to do such and such, which is obviously evil, unjust, immoral, et cetera, you have no moral authority to submit to that. In fact, you have a moral authority to resist that.
I agree.
Well, that's a part of the entire passage. So yes, it's a twofold. You know, it's a responsibility on government to be good and righteous adjust and when government is good, righteous and just, and you should have the support of the people. But when government is not good, righteous and just, it should not have supported the people. So that is clearly defined in Roman Scepter thirteen as well, because I just choose to skip over those verses.
Yes, yes, I absolutely agree. Well, we're talking about civil government. We just had the eightieth anniversary of Hiroshima. I'm curious to get your take on this and if you think that fits in and what I look we talk about frequently is a just war theory, which was something that's been put out by many Christians trying to restrain the evil of war as much as possible, and trying to restrain the way that it's conducted and the conditions under which it has fought.
How do you view Hiroshima.
All. I think it was one of the greatest greatest tragedies in US history. I think it's it is an everlasting blight on the reputation of a nation that was supposed to be the city on the hill, the nation that at the standard of good government, honesty in government, righteousness and government, a protector of humanity, a protector of life, a protector of freedom, all everything that America was stolid on, you know, the goodness of government and the righteousness and
the accountability of government to we the people. And they were straight on government by the constitution and the rule of law over the will of man, and all these principles upon which America was founded. When we dropped those bombs on Nagasaki and Niroshima, atomic bombs by the way we're the only nation in the history of the world that was ever used in the Yes, what a reputation.
And on a civilian target as well, And that's the key thing, isn't it the civilians and they're not a civilian target?
And I think that's the key thing. Isn't it the.
Fact that and that was that was really kind of a hallmark, a turning point, I think in World War Two of attacking civilians and both sides did it. There was a bombing of London, then they retaliated with Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it's really heinous. It's something that I think Western civilization kind of went straight down the tubes with that.
We haven't recovered since then.
No, In fact, I think we're still seeing it being played out today in the genocide.
And gossp Yes, exactly.
And the way that the American government is supporting the want and slaughter, genocide, identic cleansing, all of the above committed by Israel with America's total support. We're supplying the weapons, the bombs, the missiles, the munitions, with the intelligence you know, CIA and Masada working hand in hand to implement all this all this atrocity, and you know, all that I think is just a continuation of what happened at the end of World War Two. With the dropping of those
two upcoming bombs, we lost. It did more than then just kill undreds of thousands of innocent civilian Japanese People's hear the conscience of the American government.
That's a good way where.
The American government felt like, well, we have we have the right. We are morally superior to anyone else in the world. We can define goodness and righteousness as we want to. We are the exceptional nation and we have the power to do it, and so we can do anything we want. And so we are seeing that today in twenty twenty five, which is just a continuation of the false war doctrum, the unjust war doctrine of the end of World War two.
I absolutely I agree. Yeah many times the excuses made by Depentagon on others that well, that allowed us in the war early. But if they had used that against military forces, I think it would have had the same effect. The key thing is that the targeting of civilians, which is what we're seeing in God now, and the idea that we don't start wars now we start wars preemptively, and that was in the beginning of World War Two. That was something that was a day of infamy when
the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. Now, of course we know that FDR stood down and invited that in many different ways. Nevertheless, for them to initiate war that has still been everybody understands that. You know, there's always an argument as to who began the war. We see that argument playing out between Israel and Gaza. We said, argument playing out between Russia and Ukraine. So everybody understands that that is unjust.
And what I'm concerned about when I look at what's happening with Israel and with much of this other stuff that Christians are cheering, is that even atheists and Pagans understand instinctively the right and wrong about starting wars, the right and wrong about targeting civilians and sustaining this when there's no threat to you. And it is really amazing to me to see Christians who are sharing this.
Type of thing.
But of course that is coming out of well, I think is a bad theology. And you've got a book that addresses that, the incredible Schofield and his book I think you have on your website tells a little bit about that.
Yeah, that is the most thoroughly documented and fully researched biography of Cyrus Schofield ever written. And when you were talking about what you just said that the whole emphasus
behind that is build Field. Futurism also called dispensationalism, also called person Zionism, and it was started not by Scholfield, but by a man named John Darby, who was a generation in front of Billfield, but they overlapped in the latter years of Darby's life and a Darby disciple, by the way, the idea of a rapture by a pre second coming resurrection of Christian people, that concept was never taught in church history from the time of Jesus all
the way up until the mid eighteen hundreds. Yes, so for over eighteen hundred years there was never a doctrine called the rapture or dispensationalism or futurism, we'll call what you will.
And yet now that is pretty much taken over. That's pretty much taken over in terms of American Christianity.
Has oh yeah, absolutely dominant. Yeah, But the history of it is there was a Prophecy conference in Glasgow, Gotland, and I think the year was eighteen thirty and there was a a woman who self identified trans channeler Margaret mc donald I believe was a name, and she spoke in this conference and you know, this whole trans channeling stuff, that's that's the mind, and she went into a trance on stage and she started to babble forth this two
stage return of Christ, with the book called Rapture being stage number one. And that was that was the first time that I can find in my research where in church history that doctrine was taught. And it wasn't really even taught. It wasn't a pastor getting up and expounding the scriptures. It was this demonic trans channeler that went into a trance and you know, said that this is what she was shown by the spirit and all this kind of stuff. So the whole beginning of the Rapture
was demonic in my view. Well, anyway, it was picked up by the founder of the Plymouth brother by the name of John Darby. He became the champion of this doctrine. He had a man that disciples of B. S. Scholfield, who was young at the time and Schofield was a con man. He was a fraud. He was a thief. He spent six months in jail for a fraud. He was a deserter of his family. He walked out on his wife. And now we're talking. You know, this is
the mid eighteen hundreds. There was no social security, there was no welfare, there were no benefits. I mean he just left his two little girls and his wife. He you know, gave himself a lawyer title. He never went to law school. He never he was never a lawyer, but he put a law degree behind his name and he started working in law after his so called conversion and he got onto his religious kick. He gave himself a theological degree that he never earned. He never went
to college. But you know, if you if you look at the Schoolfield Bible, I'll say virus I Scholfield d d Well. That's just the degree that he gave himself. I mean, this man was a fraud's fraud. He was the conman's comman. I mean he's you know, he would have made P. T. Barnum jealous. Yeah, this and this is the guy that founded what we now know is Christmas is over Schoolfield futurisms, and the thing that the
genius of it, the thing that made it. Sufficely say, why how did this sweep the country and become vogue, you know, and seminaries and Bible colleges and churches all across the United States. The genius of it was. I got to explain this to you just a minute to help you understand how this became so popular. It didn't become popular because of the doctrine. It didn't become popular because of what was being said in the Bible until
the Thomas Schofield Bible dollars. You go back into the post Reformation days like Adam Clark and Ala Barnes and Matthew Henry and John Gill and all these James and Fosset and Brown, you name it. All these commentators. Whenever they would study the Scripture, they would they would write
their commentaries in a separate book. They would not put their words on the same page as the words of God, because they had such a holy reverence for the words of God that they felt it would be sacrilege for them to put their words their commentaries in the same page as the scripture. Well, therefore they would write their
books in a separate and a complete, separate volume. So if you wanted to read the Matthew Henard commentaries, for example, the classic foremost commentary of all the time, you would have to have your open Bible on one side of the desk and then your open Matthew Henry commentary on the other side of the desk and look back and forth.
And that's how you had to study and learn. So what Schopfield did He ignored that and he put his comments on the same page as the Bible, so whenever you open the Bible, you had the scripture versus and his commentary on the same page. Well, this was a breakthrough in that it was such a convenience for people. You didn't have to carry two books around, you know, to look back and forth. You could just open the Bible and you had the commentary and the Bible on
the same page. So it was a marketing tool.
Yeah, yeah, we see that today.
I walk into a Bible store and they've got a different They got a Bible for different professions let's say, right, you know, or for men or for women or whatever, and they dress up the cover and they'll have stuff in there about the profession or this or that, and they'll try to tie it into whatever section of the Bible.
Then, but it's all about marketing, all.
Right, right, And then all got that from Skillfield. He's the one that started that. And that's and that's why a big name is so popular. Wasn't because of what he wrote. It was because of the marketing tool in the way that the book was published, and of course it was financed by Oxford Press. Oxford Press was owned by Zionists. The Zionist agenda was promoted in Scholfield. Bullfield was an uneducated man. He never finished any kind of
formal education. He was intelligent, he was articulate. He knew how to talk, he knew how to read, he did teach himself and all that kind of thing, but he did not know theology in any state man or form. The only thing he knew was what he was taught by by Darby, and he simply regurgitated Darbyism, which became school Filism. During the time of Darby, he was a contemporary of the great preacher, maybe the greatest Baptist pressure
revolve time, Charlesbury, London, Zeland. And whenever he started hearing the doctrines of Darby and this split resurrection theory of a pre second coming rapture and prid built some of the artribulation and all that stuff. Chryls Spurgeon publicly refudiated. Yeah, Darby is. And he warned the church if they, you know, if they followed this, it was going to lead the disaster. But when Skolf came along and published his Bible, that
sealed the deal. And then the seminaries and the Bible colleges started picking it up, and then the passengers started picking it up. And today eighty percent of evangelicals buy into Christian Zionism. It's a monster.
Yeah, yeah, And you know when you look at this, Christ told us that the way we'll know false teachers and false doctrine is by their fruit. And I would say the fruit has been really, really bad of this. And that's one of the things I've told people. I said, look, you know, everybody's got their complicated eschatology charts and everything. It's like, let's just take a look at what you're the result of what this teaching is getting you to do.
It's getting you to cheer the starvation and murder of children, and maybe you should go back and take a second look, because your eschatology should not be trumping the obvious principles are laid out in the in the Bible.
For us, the legacy of cis Cofield is the genocide in Gossip. Yeah, the slaughter everything that is happening in the America. Support for it. And let's say so, let's let's be real. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why America is supporting this genocide and gossip. They support anything as Reel does. And of course we all know about the Israel lobby a PAC and you know dozens of other lobby groups representing Israel are are literally buying
the US Congress. Yes, members of both parties. I mean the starting that that stranglehold is starting to crack a little bit because of the utter grotesqueness of the slaughter of the innocence in Gaza.
Yes, and I think it was becoming.
I think that along with the appearents of Ted kruz On with Tucker crass And I've got a lot of issues with Tucker Crasson, but he kind of laid that out there, just like, what can you explain that? Can you defend that? And of course he couldn't yeah.
Uh.
And I think a lot of people saw that and start scratching their head and say, wait a minute, maybe there's something really wrong here, and there is there is something really wrong that.
Yeah, that wasn't That wasn't an interview interview, David, that was a snuff film. Uh. I mean, uh, Tucker just just slaughtered Uh. Senator cruns. Maybe it look like the idiot that he is. But you know, aside from the stranglehold of the APAC lobby on Congress in the White House, which is massive, I'm not diminishing that at all. I mean, it's it's it's ungodly the way our Congress is being
bought by a foreign government, the Israel lobby. I mean, it's it's it's unconstitutional, it's illegal, it's a moral it's an American it's it's it's it's everything bad in the world. You know, that's happening through APACK and the Israel lobby.
Remember when Trump said is used to own Congress, and he said, rightfully, so.
They do wres that Congress. But but but the reason that that's able to be successful, this is my point, is that that couldn't work if the evangelical churches of the country were not supporting it.
I agree, because they're.
Providing the moral and spiritual cover for this. You know, if the great notable preachers of the day, the ones who have the giant platforms and are speaking to hundreds of thousands of people and have the ear of so many folks in our country, if they would stand up and preach the truth about Israel, about the New Covenant, about you know, what is right and wrong in the eyes of God under the New Covenant, and the truth about biblical Israel, expose the Christian Zionism for the falsehood
that it is, and really speak truth to power, they would be able to negate the power of the Israel lobby, and they have the power to change the course of the country. I'm talking about the Pulpits of America, the pastors. This has always been the case, I agree, But because they're providing cover morally and spiritually for what Israel is doing, there's no incentive for anyone to change course.
You know, for the longest time, I really.
Put the blame for this at the feet of the Pulpits.
I agree.
For the longest time I've looked at these a lot of these churches very left wing churches that'll have their rainbow celebrations, you know, where it's basically a worship service for LGBT. And I look at that and it's like, you know that is you know what is the matter with these people? And the people on the right, well look at that and just shake their head and say, you know they have they're not worshiping Christ, They're worshiping
something else that is against Christ. And yet the conservatives do the same thing. We got a lot of churches, Cage's Church, who is just basically a worship service for a political entity, a foreign government Israel, and I see that as being an exact correlation to what's happening with the progressive leftist churches and what they're doing with LGBT or with CRT or whatever, you know, DEI that type of thing. They have their leftist ideology and they worship it.
And the right is doing that as well. And as people are trying to speak against abortion, against child mutilation and these other things, we've got people who are looking at the vast majority of Christians who are applauding what's going on in Israel because of their eschatology, and they're shaking their heads and saying, you know, you say that you stand for innocent life, but you don't stand for
innocent life at all, and so it's a reproach. It's a hypocrisy that has seen I've seen Caitlin Johnstone, many people who are not Christians just shaking their heads and saying, you Christians, what's the matter with you? And I look at it and I think, what a approach it is to the body of Christ, what a approach it is to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for them to do this kind of stuff, and everybody sees it.
I've seen one essay after another from people who opposed this war and saying, what's the matter with these Christians? It reminds me of what happened in Corinth where Paul was saying, you Christians, in this church, you are embracing sexual practices that even the Pagans don't embrace. And that's basically what I see happening here. They've got a moral sense of what a justified war is that Christians have surrendered because of their eschatology or whatever reasons.
No, you're exactly right. I have several videos that are making the grounds on social media. A lot of people have picked up these videos and are reposting them, and some of them are reaching hundreds of thousands and even millions of people. And I'm making that very point. I'm saying that what's happening in evangelicalism today is that the pastors who are promoting Christian Zionism and their unreserved sport for this godless state of Israel is driving people away
from the Gospel. Absolutely, we're supposed to be preaching the gospel, reaching people for Christ with the gospel, showing people the love of Christ, showing people the grace of God, showing people that what Jesus did on the cross, you know, has brought us together as wanting in one body in Christ is neither juno gentle or body free. We're all
want in Christ. Everyone is equal at the Cross. And yet the doctrine of Christian Zionism is separating people into cast systems, and it's separating people away from the Gospel
of Christ. And what you're saying is it's making people sick to their stomachs when they see the way that Christians Ey's pastors are supporting the awful, awful atrocities that are going on every minute of the day over there, and they're seeing the videos of it now on social media, when we're seeing it every day in front of our very eyes live time, you know, and we are seeing it, and they're looking at the churches and they're hearing what
they're saying, and they're saying to themselves the best Christianity, I don't want it. And a statistical fact that there are more people leaving Evanozelical churches today than any time in our nation's history. And that started in the year two thousand with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when when Bush launched all that. It started then, but now then it's it's come to a tsunami. Yes, it's a tsunami of people that are leaving churches and it's driving
people away from the Gospel. So it's more here at stake than just that's right, the secular, more here than just the political.
And it's not just.
It's also impacting the spiritual I agree. IBr and fabric of America.
I agree.
And it's not just the people on the outside. This is something that's been a problem within the church as well. People become so attached to the rapture and the prophecies and all the rest of the stuff that they'll break fellowship with you as a Christian if you disagree with them on this, and it's become the most important thing to them, and you have to say, but wait a minute. The most important thing is the Lord Jesus Christ. He said, you search the scriptures, you think you have eternal life
in them, but they testify of me. That should be your hermeneutic. That should be the view that you approach the text with. What does this tell me about Christ? And especially even revelation. It's the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's not you know, what's going to happen to Israel.
But that's the way it's read.
You know, it's amazing for me, but it's a real problem. That's why i'd like to I'm gonna have to get your book, the incredible Schofield and his book, and that's available at your websites.
And I know that you had to go.
I think we've gone over the amount of time that you'd allotted here, so I'll wrap this up pretty quickly again. People can find Libertyfellowship mt dot com. That's where you can find the book. That's where you can find Pastor Baldwin and also on Chuck Baldwinlive dot com. Thank you so much for joining us. Always interesting and important to talk to you. Thank you so much, sir, Thank you David very much.
Thank you.
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