One question I like to ask, the titling of these I'm titling them "The" something. So the ethical negotiator just did one, the refugee real estate mogul. If you had a the title, what would be your ideal title be?
Sexiest Man Alive has been taken right?
In this episode, you'll get to know Michael Bungay Stanier. The million copy bestselling author, and you'll hear the story of how he consistently chose to stand out and be a little bit quirky, to build a wildly successful career as a writer. I'm Dave Crenshaw, and this is my success project. Welcome back to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project. This is the show where I'm teaching my children how to be successful through the life stories of
others. But you get to come along for the ride, just in case it's your first time here. I am Dave Crenshaw, I'm a best selling author. And I speak around the world to Fortune 500 companies. I've also taught millions of people how to be successful through my online courses on places like LinkedIn learning. And I'm a husband and a father of three, my children
mean the world to me. So when I thought about the idea of creating a podcast, I didn't get excited, until I thought about the idea of leaving a legacy for them. Now, don't be fooled. This show is for adults, too. It's for you, because I thought you'd enjoy learning along with my family. And I also try to get guests who have balanced success in multiple areas of their lives, not just financial or in their career. In fact, I believe there are six facets of success.
Think about how you're doing in each of these six areas, relationships, health, your profession, or your Career, Money, a cause as in a charitable cause, and fun, enjoying the success that you're having. If you can have success in all of those areas. You have multifaceted success, and that shines like a diamond. That's the kind of success. I want to help my children, my family and help you find. And that's what the Success project is all
about. As you go through this episode, I want you to do one thing and do it for yourself. Look for one action you can take. In other words, as you hear the story of Michael Bungay Stanier. Listen for something that you can do today, this week, so that you make what you hear from him a part of your life. And today's guest is someone you're going to want to
keep with you forever. Michael Bungay Stanier, known to his friends as MBS is the author of six books, which between them have sold more than a million copies. He's best known for the Coaching Habit, the best selling coaching book, not of the year, not of the decade, but of the century. And it's already recognized as a classic. I've
learned a ton from that book. He also founded Box of Crayons, a learning and development company that helps organizations move from advice driven to curiosity led, they've trained hundreds of 1000s of managers to be more coach like, and their clients range from Microsoft to Gucci. Michael was a Rhodes Scholar, we're going to hear about that story. And he plays the ukulele as he says badly. He's Australian. He lives in Toronto, Canada. And he has also a fantastic course on LinkedIn
learning. Please welcome the curious coach, Michael Bungay Stanier.
Dave, I'm super flattered to be asked. Thank you.
And you are always traveling around the world. Where are we reaching you right now? Where are you at?
I mean, my home little office in Toronto, Canada. I mean, I'm Australian, by birth lived in England for a while and the States for a while. For the last 20 years or so. I've been living in Toronto, getting increasingly grumpy about winters. And I don't love them as much as my wife wants to love them. But I'm happy to be here.
I hear you about Utah. You know, I've grown up here. But after a while those winters start to add up, don't they?
We see winters my wife's favorite season. And she's very excited to be here in winter. And for literally 30 years. It's 30 years almost to the day since our first day. And she's been spent 20 years and here in Canada go you look you are going to come to love winter. And suddenly two years ago, I'm like, Wait, this is marketing and I'm not going to come in love with that. I don't like winter. So we're very compatible in almost every single way but does have preferred temperature not so much.
I love that. I think that's going to be the byline for this show. Wait, this is marketing. The truth? Yes. Okay, so I always like to start in a fun place with these interviews, Michael. And as I mentioned, you know, I'm sharing insights from your story with my kids, but everybody else gets to come along for the ride. But I always love this question, which is, where did you see your career going? When you were
growing up? Let's say you were in high school, not when you were, you know, in grade school, everybody says, an astronaut or whatever. for that. I'm talking about when you were in high school, you started plotting out the future, what did you see yourself becoming?
I was utterly oblivious to the future, Dave? Okay. I remember being in year 12, my final year in high school, and we got handed out the paper forms to apply for university. And I suddenly realized I had not single moments thought about what I would study at university. Wow, oh, say, Oh, my goodness. And I grew up in Canberra, which is Australia's national capital, okay. And it is a city that was
built in the 1920s. Because Sydney and Melbourne, the two big cities in Australia, were kind of fighting over who would become the capital of Australia. And they couldn't come to a decision. So they decided to build Canberra in the middle. So it's a kind of artificially built city.
And there's a lot of space in Australia to to build something
exactly build on on sheep paddocks, as we would say, sheep fields and limestone plains. And Canberra is very much a government town, it is full of people who are civil servants, public servants, and my parents were both of that. And so I grew up just expecting that I would do that, because I didn't have any role models to do anything else. So get a job in the government and have a 40 year career and hopefully get promoted and 65 or
something retire. And it actually took the good luck of me winning a Rhodes scholarship that disrupted that, and got me going to England and just took me down a whole different path. But I had not a single idea of what I would be when I grew up when I was in high school.
Okay, so you said something there that I got to latch on to you said the good luck of a Rhodes scholarship, there's a lot more than luck going into something that and for those who are not familiar with a Rhodes scholarship, can you explain what that is?
Yeah, you should think of us as the chosen ones, the brightest, most brilliant, best looking people you're ever likely to meet. But all of us most, I'm the exception to that rule. But many of us are like that. So a Rhodes scholarship started by Cecil Rhodes, the same guy who gave his name to Rhodesia. Now, Zimbabwe, you know, he made his fortune mining diamonds in Rhodesia. And his legacy is
really the scholarship. And it is really meant to try and select future leaders, people who are smart and sporting and contribute to their communities at university level to come and do another university degree at Oxford, whether that's another BA, and undergraduate degree or masters or a PhD. Okay, so
a second degree at Oxford, it's always going to be a second degree. Yeah. Okay. Very interesting. So
I didn't know that. Yeah. So my dad grew up in Oxford, and went to Oxford, in part because he was a local boy. And when I was 14, my Latin teacher because I studied Latin painfully for six years. Mr. Lennox said, so what are you doing after high school? And I went, Well, I think I'm gonna go study at Oxford University. He raised his eyebrows, only because I didn't even know what that meant. But let's meet my dad when I was like, he's a good guy. I'll follow in his
footsteps. And Mr. Lewis said, Well, you need to win a road scholarship. And I was like, note it. And I actually then started doing things that would make it more likely rather than less likely that I would win a road scholarship. So I kept in teams, and I was a prefect, and I did this and I did that. And I did the same through university. And so I applied in my I think, third or fourth year at
university in Australia. I was excited and I went and checked out the process and she a woman behind the desk, when you apply, everybody gets a first round interview, and then we get it down to a shortlist. And then we kind of decided that the two people who in this caution, great, so I filled out my application. I was pretty cocky. I thought, Oh, I'm in with a chance. And I got a letter back. I didn't even get an interview
in the first round. Okay, somewhat depressing because the woman had said everybody gets an interview. I was like, okay, so I was literally the worst applicant of everybody who applied so no problem. And so I went away and lick my wounds for a bit and then two years later, with a little more focus and a little more craft and a little more wisdom, I reapplied so many times I almost snatched defeat from the jaws of victory dive I mean, literally the day before.
We all went and had dinner at Parliament House like going to have dinner in the White House in the US. That's a big deal. So we all get taken in to a bit of a nightmare because there's a 10 people on the selection panel and 10 people on the shortlist. And so of course all of us on the shortlist we're all trying to be marvelously entertaining.
And super, why is this performative aspect dinner which was her excuse excruciating, but in a kind of in a relaxed way, you know, you can't overplay it, but you have to sort of try and defeat. It's like being voted off the island. I mean, it's competitive. And I was like, I'm, I'm just not a challenge. These are all very brilliant
people. So I thought to myself, what I'm going to do is I'm going to steal a teaspoon from Parliament House, and it will be my little trophy of my time when I attempted to get a Rhodes scholarship. Anyway, I forgot I meant to slip it into my top pocket, but I forgot, which turned out to be a good thing, because when you leave Parliament House, you walk through metal detectors.
Yes. I would have been wondering about that. Yeah.
I would have I would have been disqualified for being a kleptomaniac and a series of things. But I played a big card. Dave has everybody else who was on the shortlist came in full on respectability, blue suits, white shirts, that Paul's for the women red ties for the men. And I was like, Okay, I need to differentiate myself from what's
going on here. So I had long blonde hair, I had multiple earrings, I had a pink and purple tie dyed tie, as pretty sure that I was like, I'm either going to come a distant last, or I'm going to come first because they're going to bet on the odd person. So that was
strategic, the strategic
like, I have to play a zig when others zagging cod, and it's high risk. But if I'm competing on a level playing field, I'm probably not in with the chumps.
I love that. And that's something that you to a degree continued in your career now shall take. I mean, when I can't, when I'm like, Oh, I'm interviewing MBAs. I thought I better not were much more than a t shirt, because I can't be dressed up and my sartorial splendor is that you're wearing your normal three week tweets. Yeah, right. Like, you're usually wear some sort of version of a Hawaiian shirt is.
Yeah, just got flowers and skulls on the shirt. If you look close, yeah.
But even now, that's a that's a differentiator, right? In an industry where you're appealing to large companies, and you're being professional, you do stand out because of that choice. And I'm assuming it still is a choice. That
is, yeah, I mean, the company I founded 20 years ago, it's called Box of Crayons. So it's not a typical corporate sounding learning and development company. But I am part of this testing build, I always like standing out a little bit. And then reading Seth Godin book Purple Cow many years ago. And he's like, You know what, it is a great book, and in kind of a full permission to double down
on the be different. Because when you're in life, and when you're in what business, the worst thing you get is indifference. And if you get a strong No, that's almost as good as getting a strong, yes. Because you know, where you stand? What's boring is a kind of math response. So I have an inclination to kind of go, how do I be a bit provocative? How do I be a bit different? How do I stand down?
And I would say, that also worked, because everything else was there. Right? It wasn't that you were just showing up in earrings and long blonde hair, it was also that you have the academics you had put in the work for the other things. It was just that one little spark that one little twist. Yeah, that made you stand out.
That's true. Like I did pretty well in university. I mean, not totally, I literally finished my law degree in university being sued by one of my law professors for defamation, so that didn't go particularly well. Oh, wow. But I did well, in my my Literature degree, and I had captain the soccer team and I had done committees and volunteering. I've done a bunch of stuff that got me over the line. But you know, it doesn't matter how good
you are. There's just a lot of other people who are really good as well. So you have to figure out how do I how am I not only am I good, but how am I different?
I love it. So what did you study in Australia? And what did you study at Oxford? What were your degrees in?
So in Australia, a law degree is an undergraduate degree. So okay, they in Australia is quite common to do what they call a combined degree. In other words, two degrees faster than if you're doing them one after the other. You do them in a combined way. So I did an arts law degree. So I studied and majored in literature as an a BA, and my law degree. And then when I went to Oxford, I did a master's degree in literature.
Okay, so it really was focused on writing literature. Was it intended to be what you ended up now?
I mean, I come to the end of my In my eight years at university, which was mostly fun, and so I'm now 24. And I still have not the slightest idea of what I want to do with my life, I now have to actually get a job. And I'm like, I'm not sure it Oxford, I was being headhunted by McKinsey, a big consulting company, because they always had hunt or the Rhodes Scholars. So went for that. And I was, I think I'd be terrible at that. And it looks a bit, soul
sucking. And I applied to join an advertising agency, because I'm like, maybe they wild and crazy, I tried to get a job there, I didn't get a job. They didn't pass the test. And I actually lurched into a brand new startup company that specialized in innovation. I didn't even know what innovation was. And they weren't that good at explaining it either. But I was like, I liked the vibe of these guys. They're interesting, and they're different.
What does that mean? The vibe, what parts of that appealed to you? Well,
I can explain it better. In retrospect, the two guys who founded this company, were both at Unilever people. Now Unilever is one of the big companies in the world, like Procter and Gamble, that produce a lot of the consumer goods that we're familiar with everything from food to detergent, and so on. And when they founded this company, they're one of their key Motors was whatever business as usual is, let's not do that.
And I was wired to kind of go, whatever, I don't even know what business as usual is, but I'm pretty sure I don't want it. So it sounds like the story that you just told us. Right? Exactly, exactly. So against the grain going against the grain. So when I walked in, and I've got handmade clothes, and still blond hair, and earrings, and I like that, like you're weird, and you're smart. So let's hire you. And we'll see how it goes.
So I spent six years running focus groups with consumers to find out and figure out what they next wanted in a particular category. So literally, this is a small glimpse, I travel up to Scotland, who Scotland people from Scotland eat more soup than anybody else does in the United Kingdom. I sit in a circle with 10 Scottish women. And I try and understand what their relationship is with soup. And I show them a whole bunch of new ideas that soups we could invent
for Kraft Heinz. And then I come back to London and I write up a presentation I say to Heinz, these are the new soups that you should launch next year. So a great a great process. I love doing it. But I do not want my legacy to be a new range of soup. That's not That's not meaningful work for me.
So there are a couple of things about that story that I want to highlight for someone listening to this number one was finding a culture fit. So you were going to a place where you fit in and felt comfortable. And I think a lot of people go to accompany, because of the pay, or the prestige or whatever it is not understanding that it's really about who you are. Right, that matters. And the other thing about that is you're building your career now on curiosity.
Yes. And you can tell me if I'm wrong, but it feels like that kind of focus group was the beginning of that sort of thing, even if it wasn't what you wanted to do. Yeah, process of a focus group is digging down and asking question after question and getting curious about why do you like this soup, other than the other soup?
Yeah, that's right. So it wasn't exactly the start for me, because the stuff for me would have been earlier on in university where I trained to be a crisis counselor on phones. Interesting. So
what led you to do that? Why, why that that's really specific
it is, I had just found myself as a teenager, and then in my early 20s, spending a bunch of time talking to my friends and hearing the woes of their lives. And I noticed that I did a lot more listening than I did a lot more talking. Now. Nobody wanted to date me. So I didn't have girlfriend issues, because I couldn't get a girlfriend. So I was fine. Other people were Hey, girlfriend issues. I thought you were
the sexiest man alive.
I know. I've come a long way, baby. Okay, all right. All right. And I remember just 18 or 19 things. So I'm not sure if I'm what I'm doing here, I'm not sure if what I'm doing is useful or helpful, or just keeps us stuck in the same situation, or if I'm actually making it worse. So I went and signed up for something called Youth Line, which is the youth crisis counseling process
in Australia. And it's where I first learned, really, what it meant to ask a good question, what it meant to listen and what it meant to not assume that their first answer was their only answer or the real answer. And to understand that often the space to be heard is more important than the actual content of the answer. And that my advice is probably not that helpful. Because who am I to try and get a good guess at that?
And those are all things that have followed me really all my life in terms of what I think is important to teach and bring into the world.
Interesting. That's a beautiful way to learn that too, because you learned it through serving others. Yeah.
So it's true that it gets translated into running focus groups around whiskeys and soups and credit cards and the like. But I felt like I was doing good thing and going, I can be some form of sanctuary for people who are having a tough time of it.
I love it. So let's go back to you're working in that company, and you're in your mid 20s. Yep, right around here. I know that your wife is such a big part of your life. And you talk about your relationship with her. So were in here, did you meet her?
It says, interviewing this on the 22nd of November. Our first date was on the 20th of November 30 years ago. So we've just celebrated 30 years since our first date. And we both arrived. I think it Yeah, like we're pretty surprised and bemused that we're we've managed to be alive long enough to have a 30 year relationship. We both arrived in Oxford. Pretty sure that we weren't that interested in relationships. I was leaving a broken relationship. She was leaving a broken relationship.
We kind of both arrived there kind of going.
Alright. Just might not work out. Well. Yeah, exactly. This
is we're a bit bruised and battered from that experience. Yeah. But I met my salah very early on, because she was living in a house with three other Rhodes Scholars. And I was like, and they're all women, I was hanging out of that house. And we started dating almost immediately. I mean, we arrived in Oxford in October, we were a couple by the end of November. So wow, we, to our surprise, you know, we've we just fell in love. And very quickly went this is this is kind of it.
So I'm asking that question. Because I have found in my life that certainly the most important decision that I made not just for my life, but also with my career and everything that's happened, came down to the woman that I met and ultimately married. And we've now been our 21st wedding anniversary was this year. And we were together a couple years before that. Yeah. So what impact has that relationship had in not just your life, but your career?
Well, there's a bunch of tactical things I could mention in terms of how it's helped my career. I mean, my seller was my first reader of all the books that I write. And she's the most fearless, give her feedback. But and by fearless, I mean brutal. Like, she likes to pick up a red pen and plunge it repeatedly through my heart when I show her
tender offering. And she worked, we worked together for a while in boxes of crayons, so as like, six, six or seven years where we worked, and so she helped grow the company and help me be the leader of that company. But I would say all of those are secondary from the sense of great contentment I have in being married and that I'm happy. And that I feel she is 100% at my beck and and that is a very deep foundation from which I can have adventures, and
I can try stuff out. And we have a different risk of appetite. I'm slightly more risk inclined. And she is she's very supportive of what I do and how I do it. So the bottom line is I have a deep contentment and happiness from being married. And that infuses everything.
That's beautiful. And I'm assuming you're providing the same for her as well.
When somebody said, you know, it's a good marriage. When when if you ask each of the people in the marriage who's getting the most out of it, they go I am. So in my marriage, I go I think I'm getting the most out of this. And I don't I'm not sure exactly what my sellers answers I wouldn't want to presume but I think she might say she's getting the most out of it. So we both feel like we're getting a really good, a good deal. That's the
beautiful contract. Another way that I've heard that phrase is that you know, the secret to success is making sure that the other person is your top priority. Yeah. And when you've got two people working together that way, then you always feel supported. Yeah, directions.
As much as I mean, with all of this stuff. It's just also worth acknowledging the luck involved. Because we've lived in England and then Boston and then Toronto, we've had different careers. I've had different iterations of the work that I do. And if you get together as a couple and you start off, you know, one degree misaligned around something important.
After 30 years, there's a big gap between you and we've had the good luck to and it is luck to have our relationships adapt to each other so that we keep coming back to each other in terms of who we are and what we think is important.
So when you say it's luck, though, that implies that there isn't work involved.
No, it's not meant to imply that there's not work involved there is working. Okay, but I think people I know who relationships that two really good people who have loved each other and who have worked hard at their relationship and they have drifted apart, because of just the way the world plays out for
them. I'm saying this out loud, because there's a way that an end of a relationship can feel like a failure and a personal failure, like I didn't do the work or I wasn't the right person, or they didn't do the work. And sometimes you just get unlucky in that you end up on two different paths that pull you apart. Like that. It's a balance of both. Yeah. I mean, it's no doubt it is work. It's
not just like, it's worth. I do think it's like, the coaching haven't been a huge selling book, a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of strategizing a whole bunch of luck involved in selling over a million copies.
You know, I think about my relationship. And I think that part of the reason why it's worked for us is that we just genuinely like each other. Everybody talks about love, which is important. But it for us, it began, we're just friends. Yeah, I would rather hang out with her than any other person in the world clean. Exactly. Yeah. And then that makes everything else, even when you have to do the work a lot easier.
I mean, it's miraculous. 30 years on my cell was still laughs at the same seven jokes that I have. That's probably Stockholm Syndrome. So there's something else but yeah.
Okay, so let's now go back to the career. Yeah. Talk to me about the transition to what you do now, which is you're an online guru, you're an author that's well respected. You build these companies. I mean, you're reaching millions of people around the world. So how did you make that transition to the beginning of that?
Well, I've got fired. Is there is the CIO, insurable. Yeah. When you saw what happened? Why? So I worked at this innovation company for six or seven years. And then when do you know what we have not successfully, really launched anything of any significance? What is going on with that? So I joined a consulting firm, where I got to learn about how organizations work, because I was trying our good ideas. We keep going into organizations and dying. I'm like, let me figure this out.
And with that consulting firm, we went from London to Boston, they opened up a new office in Boston, we had a miserable time in Boston, because they didn't know what they were doing. And I didn't know what I was doing. And our main client abandoned us about 10 days of pre arrived in Boston. So we struggled for three years. And eventually I left to go up to Toronto. And I'd found a consulting job up in Toronto, I've never been there before. But I got a job. And so I was like, Okay, this is great.
And we'll head off. And I'll kind of carry on my consulting career. We had tickets to fly out of Boston on 911. So 21 years ago, there abouts. So that had its own complications, of course, around us leaving and crossing the border. But it meant that by the time I got to Toronto, my consulting firm went, sorry, we were no longer hiring you because we didn't
know what is happening. They did set me up for this kind of small contract work in another company, where honestly, for six months, Dave, I tried to do some change management stuff for them, and just failed utterly, could not get traction could not get anybody. So what made us I had no status, I had no direct power, I had no indirect power. So I was flapping around for six months. They paid me a salary, which was great. And then after six months, they went, you suck.
And I'm like, That's harsh, but it's accurate. And what was brilliant was literally two days beforehand, my, my maple leaf card equivalent of a green card had arrived. So I could now work independently in Canada. So that was really the birth of what would become Box of Crayons. Now my business model when I started Box of Crayons was find somebody with a pulse and a wallet and see what I can do because I had a range of different skills, but I didn't have a business plan. I
didn't have purpose. I was just looking to get work so I could pay for life. But after four years or so five years of that I kind of was invited to do some training around coaching skills. And that became the thing that box of crayons is now known for, and what I'm known for, which is like how do you make coaching practical and unwed and useful for busy managers and busy leaders? I was
just going to ask why Box of Crayons.
So as part of my try and get to know people in Toronto, I had signed up for my local international coaching Federation chapter and I volunteered to run a walk drop on branding, because in the world of innovation, I'd learned enough about brands that I could kind of do some teaching around it. So I came up with Michael's five unbreakable laws of branding. And in part because most coaches brands drove me crazy.
sounds useful. I want to hear those those five laws.
Well, I wish I could remember them all. But here's here's the real crux of the matter, Dave, as I as I listed my five unbreakable laws, I looked at the name I'd given my company and realized that it failed almost all of the laws. So
what was that first name?
The first name was named after my grandmother. Her name was Mater and a Ida, named after Sir Walter Scott's Wolfhound. In Scotland, she was Scottish. So it's like it's called Meter CC meter coaching and consulting. I was like, okay, it doesn't work. So I now had four weeks to come up with a better name. So I wouldn't look like an idiot teaching these five unbreakable laws, three of which I was definitely breaking. So I basically just, I kind of panic brainstorm for three or four
weeks. And I'd have these ideas I got maybe I call it espresso coaching. Because I like espresso. And I'm like, I'm imagining dolce vita, like cool guys riding scooters and looking. Ciao, bella, email. Friends, I have an espresso coaching. One friend emailed me back, okay, espresso. It's pretentious is expensive, it doesn't last very long. It stains your teeth. And I'm like, there's not there's not the brand attributes that I was striving for. So I'm sitting on
a train going somewhere. And I'm thinking, Who do I like to serve. And at the time, I was coaching quite a lot. And I'm really, I love to serve people who are seeking a sense of fun in their life. And in that moment, Box of Crayons popped into my head. And I'm like, That's a good name. And that was the moment. So staying in the ambiguity for a long time Box of Crayons showed up. And I was like, That is cool. And it's different, and playful. And it can have a range of different
meanings. So it became a really strong brand for me.
That's really interesting. So I have a similar my early now Box of Crayons has been very successful. But my early title for my business was fresh juice strategy. Nice. Yeah. And there are flaws with that. But at least in the beginning of my career, because it was unique, it always brought up a conversation. It was why fresh juice Oh, well, because I can help every customer experience that you have be as fresh as the previous one. Yeah,
that's really good. And I would, yeah, so I'd lead that into entrepreneurial coaching, which is my background. Yeah. So yeah, I think there's value in here we go back to that principle, again, of differentiation, right? I think that's something that you understand. So clearly, and you've lived so much in your career.
I'd only say this, Dave, I'm just going to reiterate what you said around, you know, if I'd shown up from a Rhodes scholarship interview wearing a chicken outfit, and not a whole lot to back me up on that. There's no point in being different if you don't also have something solid behind you. So true. The companies I've started have been successful, because they've got clear business models that are tested. And they're not different from other business
models. But in terms of how I then present myself to the world, that's where you put the twist on to differentiate yourself.
Yeah. And you are certainly someone who throughout your life, you delivered on the things that matter, right? And that's why you've been successful. And then you just put in that extra little MBS spark, that is you.
Yeah, I know, I keep coming back to this, I have had a bunch of success. And I've got a bunch of smart things that have helped with that. And I just keep getting, I always have had a whole ship my share of lucky breaks, you know, moments where the cards have fallen. For me, the fact that I've gotten a lot of cards just because I'm a straight, tall, white, dude, over educated white dude, that I mean, I've got a bunch of things that helped the luck happen more
easily for me. And there's a real danger of what are they called survivor bias, which is like, Hey, I survived that I did this. Therefore, what I did must be the truth. And it almost always discounts the amount of the roll luck and timing and good break and all that sort of stuff plays in your life.
So I want to pause on that for a second because you're using that word a lot.
I feel lucky. Yeah. Okay. I'm like, I'm smart. And I work really hard. And I keep putting myself in positions where I increase the odds that luck will happen for me, don't get me wrong,
okay. Because because I want someone listening to this to not go oh, well, he was just lucky. Yeah, that can't happen to me. I would like someone listening to this to say, Yes, he was lucky. Here's how I can take advantage of that luck or make that luck. More likely.
Yeah, exactly. So there's ways of increasing the chances that you will get lucky. You're unlucky unlucky to have real success on this. You also have a dose of luck.
Yeah. What was your first book? Was that the Coaching Habit? Or was there a book before that? And there's a
couple of books before that. So Coaching Habit came out in 2016. Before that I self published a book called get unstuck, and get going on the stuff that matters, which was a second Choose Your Own Adventure coaching book. You know, those kids flip books that have a ballerinas head and a scuba divers body and a soccer players legs, you can think about? Sure, yeah. So I created a book where those three sections was a point and a story and a quote or with questions
attached. So you'd bring a challenge to the book, you'd open it up at one of the 125,000 different combinations. And you'd have three questions to provoke you to think differently about whatever your challenge was,
oh, that's brilliant. Can we still get that book or no, it's
out of print, because I self published and it cost a fortune to make
it sounds like yeah, the cuts and everything like that to create something like that.
Brutal to try and create that. But that was I got left money by my grandfather. And it's kind of the having a supportive spouse myself, I was like, let's put this money to this book. So as I can do this book, and even if I lose everything, it's found money. So we're still ahead of the game. And then I wrote a book called Find your great work and self published, it was a
little red book. But on the basically the day hit self published for the print run, it got picked up by workman in New York publisher and got republished as do more great work. So this is my flurry within your publisher, and it's sold about 100,000 copies over over the years. Okay, I got
to stop on that. Yeah, because we know that you sold a million copies, but 100,000 copies for those who are not familiar for a nonfiction book in that category. That is tremendous.
It is, you know, I saw the stats on this the other day of the front list books. And so books published within the year by a regular publisher 15%, sold less than 12 copies, at 6%. So less than 5000 copies, which is the generally accepted breakeven mark for a brochure, and 0.4%. Sell More than 100,000 copies. So yeah, I sold mine over a period of time, but still, that's a pretty good deal.
So I know the Coaching Habit is the bigger book, but I feel like do more great work. There's a lot there just to achieve that level. Yeah. What were you doing to make that happen?
Well, I had a mailing list, so I got people to buy it. And in the in those days, newsletters were less common and mailing lists were more loyal and everywhere, there's less no social media servers less crowded. So I think I had a more loyal bunch of people following me.
How did you build that list prior to that point?
I don't totally remember. But I did, very early on put out a video called the eight irresistible principles of fun. So you can google that and you can still find it. And it feels a bit slow and antiquated now, but that was that went viral that had some millions of people watching it before YouTube, unfortunately. So I don't have this great video
stats. And that poured a lot of people to the newsletter, you know, what's interesting, Dave is, and this is part of the origin story of the Coaching Habit is having had this success. So you know, solid below success with do more great work. I then spent five years pitching workmen to publish the Coaching Habit. And I just couldn't get them interested in it. I know, I literally rewrote the book four or five times. Because I like Michael, we like
you. But we don't like this go away and do it again differently. And finally, after literally four years of trying to get them to get interested, I'd say okay, I've come back. And we're clear on what this book is in my mind. So it's like, take it or leave it. I'm not going to come back again. And either yes or no, really confident that they wouldn't call my bluff. And they call my bluff. They weren't right. We don't want this book. I was like, I was so surprised, because I thought I proven
myself with the first book. And they were they were they would take a bet on, you know, a successful author. But they turned down the Coaching Habit. And then I placed one of my three best bets of my life, which is I'm going to self publish this book, but I'm going to publish it as a professional. So I'm going to hire a good editor. We'll hire a designer, the designer introduced me to page two who the team that have helped me bring the rest of my
books to the market. And of course, that book has over the last six years changed my life has sold a bunch and grown companies and given me some profile.
I feel like there's a little bit of a parallel to that and you're getting the Rhodes Scholarship in that you had a very clear objective in your mind. You went out and said, what is required to get this? Yep, you get the feedback and you go do it. And it wasn't enough. And then you do it again. And you do it again.
I hadn't made that connection. But you're right. That that Dave, and with all of those, I was like, I'm gonna go for it in the best way I can. And that is sufficient success in itself,
can you define that a little bit more, that's a really interesting statement. So it shouldn't success in itself
with the Coaching Habit, the week before it kind of made its way into the world, I say, this is a really good book. And that is all the success I could really ask for, which is I can control, which is to write the best book I can. And I'm not gonna have done that. So if this doesn't work, and this doesn't sell a whole bunch of copies, I'm not going to feel regret or failure around that, I have done my very best. Now I had a, I made a commitment that I was going to market this
book for a year. And we're gonna give this a really good shot. And we're gonna all I can to bring this book to market. And that's a whole nother thing I committed to, again, without knowing the outcome, because I could have I was on a bazillion podcasts and articles and all this other stuff. And I'm like, that could have all made no difference whatsoever, it could have still just sold 50 copies. And I'm like, doesn't matter.
I've made the commitment. I'm going to do it the best I can that is now success, commit to the process, rather than the outcome,
commit to the process rather than the outcome. And boy, I can identify that. I mean, really what we're doing right now is one of those things. For me, the success in itself is that I've created something or I'm creating something lasting for my children. Right, right, actually. And even if this doesn't take off, I'm okay with that. I don't know if you're okay with it, because you probably like a little. No, no, I know you. You're such a generous guy, you would do this
anyway. Right. And I think there's a lot of power in that. I think, sometimes we hold on too tightly to outcomes, rather than focusing on just doing something great.
Yeah, I think that's so bizarre to dance here, Dave, you know, because it's also helpful for to have ambitions. Yes, so I have a podcast too. It's called two pages with MBAs. And in the last book I published called How To begin, I talk about my goal for it being to have 10,000 listeners per episode. Now, it's been going for nearly three years, and it's at maybe 1000 listeners per episode. For the
good episodes. There's plenty around 1000. And so part of me is like, disappointed that hasn't taken off, because, because I wanted to do more. But then I'm like, so why do I do this? And I know I'm doing it, it's a chance for me to become a better interviewer. And it's a chance for me to meet people who Delight me and amaze me, it's like sitting down to somebody next to you at a dinner party, and you're like, Oh, my God, this turned out to be the best conversation I've had for ages.
You're fascinating. And I'm like, I want more of those people into my life. So I've had to figure out how to ask myself, do I pursue 10,000 listeners? and at what cost? Or do I recalibrate how I think about success? And do that other investment of time and money into other things? Where the numbers matter more to me? And
what's the answer? I'm not going to invest in marketing for the podcast, because actually, for my businesses, where I have greater chance of having impact in people's lives, and I also have employees and contractors that I support, it's more important for me to grow those businesses and have financial success there. So investment in marketing makes more sense for that. But you're still going to
do that project. But I'm still doing the podcast because I know why I'm doing it and the successes and the joy of doing it, rather than in the verb listeners I have.
Well, and I think there's a lot to be said for consistency, too. I've seen that several times in my career where I achieve a level of success. And I go, that's not very much. But I have faith in the repetition of it. Yeah. And I just keep at it. Some of these things are war of attrition. You just keep doing it. And then eventually, because you've had it out there so long, because it's been happening so long, it turns into something. So I could easily see that happening for
you. And like with the two pages pocket,
it might, and it would be delightful if it does. And I don't care if it does or not. Like I'm actively not caring about that metric, because what I actually care about is how do I find amazing people for me to talk to that the measure of success for me?
I love it. Okay, so you said something I gotta ask. You said building. The book was one of the three best bets you've ever made. Yeah. So what were the other two best bets? Oh,
One was marrying masala. Okay. Second was bedding on the Coaching Habit book. And the third was hiring the woman who is the CEO for Box of Crayons now. So I hired Shannon from behind the bar of my favorite pizzeria, my wife and I were sitting there, having a glass of wine eating our favorite pizza, Shannon was serving us and we went regularly. So we saw her regularly. And so we talked to her. She was doing a PhD in literature. So we're all book
geeks. So we're all having these great conversations about literary theory and favorite books and less than the other. And then she had got let off from one of her part time jobs because she was a TA teaching in the university, she had a waitressing job, she had another job. And she got let go of that through no fault of her own, that company lost money. So I hired her to come and help me do some part time marketing for the Coaching Habit just before it
launched. And I swear, this woman is really smart, and really impressive and really good. And we've been working together now for a little over six years. And for the last three, she has been the CEO at Box of Crayons. So she's, there's one part of her is totally freaking out, which is like, what am I doing? I'm now in charge of a multimillion dollar company and a team of 20 and strategy. And all of this is kind of a new world to her. This is her first ever proper job.
Like she's brilliant CEO, she is just she's just CEO caliber in a way that I could only dream of, except I wouldn't, because I didn't want to be a CEO. I'm not I'm not wired that way. And it's not my strength. But oh my god, she's a better CEO than I ever was, and I ever will be, and kind of betting on her. And figuring out what it takes for this to become her company to lead, rather than her managing my company has been a bunch of work and a big bet and a really great bet.
I love it. I'm guessing one of the things that I teach to companies that are hiring, as I talk about hiring for traits versus skills, yeah, all too often we look at the resume of someone and say, well, they've had this experience before they've been a CEO. That's why they'll be great. But it sounds like you did exactly that. Right? You found someone you just said she's got the right things, the right traits. She's not she doesn't have the experience. But she can learn that.
Yeah, yeah, I hired her for traits, which is like, I think you're a hard worker, and you're smart, and you can manage running a marketing campaign, which she could. And then I promoted her on traits, which is you have the capacity, you have a way of thinking that is rare and beautiful. And something that great CEOs have the ability to see patterns, the ability to figure out where the soft spot is, and put a finger on it and go, oh, we need to fix this. She's got all of that. Yeah.
It's wonderful. What's next? Is it more of two pages? Or is there something else that's on your radar? Well,
I wrote a book called How To begin, and it's about how to set a worthy goal. I mean, that's thrilling and important and daunting for you. And talk about three different types of lenses into your worthy got. One can be about project when you building or launching or starting. One can be about relationships to people, who are you in relationship to this other person? And how do you want that to shift? And the third of the PS projects people is patterns,
which is who are you? And how do you want to change and evolve? What I'm trying to be is I'm trying to be a writer, I'm already an author, because I've published a bunch of books. But a writer builds a life around writing around the input around the discipline around the consistency. And at the moment, I write books around the edges of other stuff that I do, rather than make it front and center.
So, you know, in a practical sense, you know, I've got a new book coming out in June next year, on Sunday sent the final draft off to the copy editor. But the biggest shift is to kind of shift my identity to become a writer, and then write a book or two a year. I've got three or four good ideas for books. And so I'm like, How do I bring those into the world over the next two or three years? Oh, that's
impressive. It's a lot. There's a lot, right. A couple of books a year. Yeah, but you love it.
I love it in bits. And I love it. Miserable, but I like the overall idea of bringing my best work into the world as a book, for sure. Beautiful. All right.
So here's the moment in the interview, where I like to have a few summaries, all right, and then because to me, it's not about just learning from you, although there's a lot to that, to me. It's about what we do as a result of what we heard and so everyone listening to this, they may have had 10 or 12 different ideas. And I'm going to encourage everyone to pick one thing to do so that you make Michael a part of your life. So I'm going to give a few
options to choose from. And then if you'd like to add one or two at the end, I'd appreciate that. So the first thing, and this we see this several times throughout NBS, his career, the differentiation, find a way to stand out and be different, whether that's the shirts that you wear, or, you know, having long hair and earrings with that, or the names that you choose, you've got to have everything else solid, you got to have the fundamentals there. But then add just a little
something to it. And maybe someone listening has got a project they're working on. And you can ask yourself, How can I differentiate it just a little bit mixed stand out? The second thing that I wrote down, and this is in general, we didn't dive into it too much. But I just know this about you and your process. The first answer is not the right answer. It's not the only answer. Dig deeper,
be more curious. So in a conversation that you have with someone, maybe it's a difficult thing that you're approaching, and you got to work through it with them. Keep asking questions. I know, Michael, you say stay curious longer. And I want people to take that away. And then the third one, I saw this a few times. Consider if a partnership will help you
succeed. in anything you do you have a partnership with your wife, I know that that's more than academic or career oriented, but that that partnership helped you succeed, you have a partnership with your publisher, they kept pushing you to do better with the coaching habits, right. And that partnership led to success. And then you mentioned the partnership with your CEO of three years. And how that was such a great choice. That's two of your great bets, right?
I've had a bunch of bad partnerships, they've, it's really important to acknowledge kind of the ones that have been mediocre or disappointing or actively broken. And I just reiterating what you're saying, which is like it's really worth continuing to pursue the really great partnerships because they more than make up for the disappointments that pull upon the chips, which will inevitably have will bring you.
Yes, exactly. Anything you'd add to that as a possible action someone could take from what they heard of your story.
This is in part about the new book that's coming out later on. But if you're thinking about a partnership, have a conversation before you start working on the work about how you will work together. I've started calling this the Keystone conversation, which is like, let's have a conversation about what we want this relationship to look like. Not just get plunged into the psyching work, because the work is always exciting at the start.
And it's always tempting to go there rather than sit down and go, Hey, Dave, when you've worked with somebody like me before and build a partnership like this before, and it's been really good. What happened? What did you do? What did they do? And when it's been disappointing, or mediocre, or a letdown, what happened? What did you do what they do, and share a conversation where you shape how you imagine the best possible relationship can be between you.
And when you do that? Do you also write it down? Do you make notes of it in some way? Yeah,
I mean, first of all, if you ask a question, both parties need to answer it. So I don't just ask Dave, what's the best and worst working relationships? I tell Dave, my own stories and my own insights around that. And then there's a question of going so what do we want to remember from this? What are our principles? So you actually can write that stuff down and kind of name it.
But the most powerful thing about having a conversation about how you want to work together, is it gives you permission to keep having conversations about how you're working together. It actually makes it something that's allowed within the relationship rather than something that becomes increasingly weird if you've never done it before.
I love it and it's a culture of questions and a culture of curiosity, which is what you teach. Michael, this has been fantastic anyone listening also please subscribe to his podcast to pages
double my listenership.
And look up his books on Amazon you also have a course on LinkedIn learning I do. So check that out. Michael any other place you'd like people to go to continue the relationship that we just started with you?
Look if you if you're more of me directly and kind of supporting individuals to build better relationships and to find the next big thing. Then my website is NBS dot works. If you're somebody with a vast corporate training budget, and you spend all you can on Dave already, and you're looking for something else then box of crayons.com is our kind of organizational and corporate offering.
Wonderful MBS dot works for the personal and box of crayons.com for organizations, Michael, I always have so much fun talking with you. I love your insight and your personality and everything about how you operate. So thank you so much my friend for coming on the show. It's a pleasure
thank you for having me. they
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project hosted by my dad, Dave Crenshaw, and produced by Invaluable Incorporated, sound editing was done by my brother Stratton Crenshaw, research and assistant production by Victoria Bidez. Voiceover by me, Darci Crenshaw, and the music is by Ryan Brady via pond five licensing. Please subscribe to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project on Google podcast, Apple podcast, or wherever you like to get your
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