To go back into prison and to be able to walk out the way that we did. It is very special to me to do that to be able to do that with you. Yeah, it was.
It was wonderful. Yeah,
I don't I don't know how to describe the experience of being able to walk into prison with you a walk out of a prison with You. Instead of just standing by watching you walk out of prison. And I'm staying behind.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we went out together. Oh, man, that's a beautiful thought. In this episode, you'll get to know John Jackson, the inspiring prison hustler. And you'll hear the story of how he went from being a gang leader in a supermax prison, to helping incarcerated people turn their lives around. I'm Dave Crenshaw, and this is my success project. Welcome back friends to the Dave
Crenshaw Success Project. This is the show where I'm on a mission to discover universal principles of balanced success. My goal is to find these principles that I can teach to my kids so that they can start their career in a successful way. But you are welcome to come along for the ride. Now in case it's your first time here. I'm a best selling author. I speak around the world to Fortune 500 companies, and I've taught millions of people how to be successful through my online
courses. I'm also a father, and the idea of helping my kids inspired me, but I thought, My gosh, why not help other people as well and share this with everyone. So I speak to some amazing people, some of the most successful people in the world, and also others who have inspiring stories of how they've changed their lives. And in this case, my guest today is truly unique. And now John Jackson is here at my home studio in Salt Lake City, John and I first met
in prison. It was at Pelican Bay, which is an infamous supermax prison in California. And when I saw him, he was wearing the Prison Blues, he was helping conduct meetings to help people turn their lives around, I was there with a group called Defy. And John was helping facilitate and was already well on the path toward helping
others be successful. I'll introduce him in just a second, I do want to add one thing to be aware of, if you're listening to this interview, we will be discussing a murder that takes place and we will be discussing life in prison and what that can be like we do it in a sensitive way. There's nothing sensational here. But if that's something that you might be concerned about, I want to make you aware going into this that those
topics will come up. That said, I think it's well worth the listen and I think you're going to gain a ton from it. So a little bit about John. Correctional Officers once labeled John, the worst of the worst. After being entrenched in gang culture and serving 18 years in prison. John realized that continuing to build a criminal resume would only lead
to life and death. In prison, John made the very dangerous and unpopular decision to step away from gang and criminal activity while he was incarcerated at the supermax Pelican Bay in California. Since his release in 2019. John has served as the Director of Curriculum
Development at hustle 2.0. And he's co authored their curriculum, which has served over 10,000 incarcerated men, women, and youth in jails and prisons nationally, and I have seen the work and the power of hustle 2.0 When I visited prison in Utah recently with John, today, John works with gang leaders to stop the generational cycle of gang violence in
prisons across the country. He uses his personal story of courage and transformation, to create hope for a better future for those who have been written off and forgotten by society. John, I'm so thrilled to have you here in my office, and to interview you, thanks for coming.
This is awesome. We just had an amazing experience last week going into the prison here in Utah. And that was a very special experience for me. So thank you for inviting me to your home. Yeah,
yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, really that experience, and hopefully we will talk about it a little bit. But I've been to Pelican Bay a few times. That's where we met first time. But even still going to the prison here in Utah with you was one of the top experiences of my life. It was fantastic. And it shows what an impact you're having on the lives of people through your
work with hustle 2.0. So what I always like to do, John, is I like to start at the beginning part of this podcast is helping everybody I'm trying to help adults learn how to be successful, but I'm also helping my kids. That's part of the purpose of this podcast. So the question I always like to start with is when you were growing up, and I'm not talking when you're eight or nine, right? Everyone wants to be a firefighter or the president
united states, right. But when you were in your teens, what did you want to be when you grew up? Or what do you think you were Want to be when you grew up?
I didn't have a hope that I would be anything. I didn't believe that I would be anything.
So what influence what was the best that you could hope for at that time? What did you think was the best you could possibly do for yourself?
I think the best di looking back into my teenage self right now and thinking of that young kid to just be accepted by my app. Okay, yeah. Just to be accepted.
So let's, let's tell that story. So tell us the same thing that you said to people when you were in prison about your first experience that sort of influenced the way that you were headed for the next several years with my aunt, first with your mom.
So when I was 11 years old, the mess the last memory that I have in my mom was when she took me into bed and kiss me the night before she went to work the graveyard shift at Denny's. She was a waitress, and I get up the next morning to go to school, and I see our car parked on the side of the road. And I walk over and looking at it. It's my mom's murder scene. Well, and she'd been beaten to death. So that was my first encounter with law enforcement was, of course the murder scene,
cops coming around. And I didn't know who my father was. So I went to live with my mom's sister, my aunt, and she was a drug dealer. And at the age of 17, I'm with her. She's in the car. We're both in the car, she gets pulled over. And as the cops walking up, she leans over and tells me John, if the cops find the drugs, tell them they're yours. That's unbelievable. Yeah. This is the person who promised to protect you, right? It's your mom's sister. Like, what do you do?
And authority? What
would you do day liquor authority figure like your parents are like, Hey, John,
well, you're what age at this point?
I was 17.
Okay, yeah. So you don't know any better, you don't have any other frame of reference. And on top of that, she's putting the guilt into it, right?
That's what you're, I don't want to go to jail. She's scared. She doesn't want to go to jail. And so she's, hey, she knew that, because I didn't have a criminal history that I would be released shortly after that, she basically sacrificed me to save herself. And she watched as the cost from the drugs. And she watched as they handcuffed me and took me off to jail.
How long did it take you after that event to realize that what she did was wrong? Because I know sometimes we experience an abusive situation like that. And it takes years or even decades to look back and go, Wait a minute. That wasn't right. So for you, was it pretty quick to have that realization? Or did it happen much later on?
It was much later on? I would say I had been in prison maybe 510 years before I realized that. That wasn't right. Yeah, that's messed up. Yeah, to do that. That was just, that was a very bad choice on her part, to do that to me.
So, and I know a lot of the work that you do, deals with trauma. And I know that the times when I've gone into prison, what people don't realize if they haven't been through that experience is the impact that that trauma and upbringing has on a person to sort of set them on the path. Were there other instances where your aunt did that same sort of thing to you or other family members did that same sort of thing.
No other family members did that type of thing to me. But for her, she taught me how to sell drugs. You know, she taught me a lot of the skills that I'm thankful for today. But I do realize at the time, these are not things that you teach to a kid. No, I bet you teach your kids, you are an entrepreneur, you teach your kids entrepreneurial skills and how to hustle. But you're not like, Hey, let's go out here and sell some illegal drugs. Let me teach you to this way. Yeah,
right. Exactly. You teach your kids very different skills in a very different way.
Yeah. Which is, it's terrible that that's your first experience with any kind of teaching or development. I had a conversation with a mutual friend cos Marty. Right. And one of the questions that I like to ask him because I think people wonder this not having grown up in a situation like that. Were there any positive influences in
your life? Were there any people that you could look at and say, you know, what, maybe that's a better way, or was it completely absent of that sort of role model in your world?
No, I had positive role models. My uncle, my aunt's husband, he was my father. He disciplined me whenever I was not being my best self. He loved the crap out of me. And I miss him dearly. I respected him so much he passed away from MLS. But he was such a positive role model in my life. The influence from my aunt was very strong. I've always had that desire to hustle and make money. And my uncle had a steady job. He
worked his way up. He was a manager at a Jiffy Lube and he worked up to a regional manager and then a district manager. That wasn't that's not exciting. Right? Oh, well, I could one day be a district man. manager at Jiffy Lube. But looking back now I'm like, That's amazing. Yeah. But for my aunt, you know, she comes home with a fat stack of money every day, she comes home, she's living a faster life that's much more exciting to me much more appealing.
And that's what drove you to make a lot of the decisions that you made, and what you went through to get to the point where you are right now. So can you paint a little bit of a picture of what life was like sewer 17 when you had your first contact with law enforcement, what age do go into prison?
17 Oh, so same year, so I get arrested for the first time was arrested. I get arrested for taking this drug charge from my aunt. And sure enough, now she's right. Two weeks later, they kicked me out of jail. I don't have a criminal. I've never had a criminal record. So they slap on the wrist. And, you know, I get the praise that I wanted. For my app. Good job. This is what you do for family. And after that I committed my first aggravated robbery. And same year for aggravated robberies and seven
felonies. And I was headed to a maximum security prison in California.
Man, that was fast. Yeah. And was it Pelican Bay that you went to first it
was oh, Pelican Bay was the last prison that I went to.
Okay. So you started at 17? You went in at 17? And then was there any break? Were you ever out of prison before you went back in?
No, I did. 18 consecutive years. Wow.
Wow. So 17, and then you basically double your lifespan in prison.
One of my but two years ago was when I crossed the threshold in my life where I've been outside of prison more than I've been incarcerated.
Wow. That's, that's remarkable. It's, it's remarkable to because you and I know, and you especially know that some people they get into that system, and they never ever, ever get out. Yeah. So that says a lot about what you had to do to get out. So talk to me a little bit and paint a picture of what it is like to live in a prison. What's sort of a day to day experience,
a day to day experience for me, the average man was very structured, you know, you wake up, I was part of a prison gang. So we have a lot of rules and a lot of regulations that you follow on a daily basis. And that was great. For me, it's great for so many of the people that we serve that structure that discipline, you get up I clean my cell, I'd study worked out, we spent a lot of time reading, and then engage in a lot of illegal activities.
Okay, selling drugs, cell phones, a lot of ways to make money, basically a lot of ways to use my entrepreneurial skills, just in the wrong way.
Yeah. Well, and that's a big part of the the programs that we've been a part of fine hustle. 2.0 is the idea that you have great skills, right to be in a gang to commit these crimes? You got to be smart. Yeah. And clever to do it. Why not take those skills and apply them in a positive way? In fact, when we were at the prison in Utah, I made the comment, like, You're breaking the wrong rules. Right? Yeah. Entrepreneurs break the right rules, meaning they break rules
that aren't illegal. They're just breaking the way that everybody does things. And they're mixing it up, and they're doing things a different way. But that isn't where you started. No, that's not at all where I started. Now, how many you said, like your reading? Were you focused on self improvement? Or were you just trying to pass the time when you got into prison?
So to pass the time I'd read fantasy novels. Okay. I love that. I used to love fantasy novels. I don't read them as much as I used to at all. But at that time, it was to become just to be smarter to be a better gang member. Oh, can I take this knowledge, like the art of war, you name all these business books and strategic books. Because living in prison is very dangerous. You are surrounded by people that we've that I viewed as my enemy, who we fought with and went to,
quote, war with. So I want to understand strategy, I want you to understand how people operate. And the better I can be at the way people operate, the better my chances of survival and not only surviving and thriving in prison.
Okay, so all of the knowledge that you were trying to achieve was in the purpose of serving the gang. Yeah. Okay. Were you in a gang prior to going into prison? Or were you pushed into the game once you entered prison?
I was. I had never had any gang involvement prior to going to prison. When I got to prison. I joined a gang almost immediately. I had all the skills they wanted. Leadership, smarts, hustle, all of those skills are very valuable.
Hey, John, we see that you're valuable. We'd love for you to be a part of what's going on here because you've got skills that we can use.
Yeah, they're their recruiters are great at identifying talent.
Again, a valuable skill, right? That's a skill that any CEO needs to have an EVP. I need to be able to identify people who are talented. I need to bring them into my service, encourage them to be a part of the service and
just Not just that putting them in the right seats, putting the right person in the right seat, right? Like, you've been in a prison with us multiple times you can I bet that if I put a lineup of people and you got to interact with them, you could put these guys in the right seats, you could see, wow, this guy's got this skill, this skill, this skill, this skill, I just need to put them in the right spot and point them in the right direction. How many guys? Did you see like
that? Where they have these skills that are just like, Wow, do you know if you just pushed it a little more to the left or the right. They could do great things.
Let's pause on that for a second. Typically, when I do this, we're going okay, Tom, logically, right. But But I think it's important because the start of things for you was so terrible. What you're talking about is someone who's leading again. And you eventually became a leader, right? In a leadership position. Yep. Now that you've done work, like hustlers who point out right, where you're creating the curriculum that's changing people's lives, they're seeing a
different way. What examples have you seen of people who were great leaders in gangs become great leaders in life in a healthy productive way.
So for many of our guys that we serve the some of the guys who you met at Pelican Bay, these guys, their odds of going home are extremely low, they have a life without parole, or multiple life sentences. Yeah. They have always had a voice and the charisma of any of the best CEOs that I've ever met, to influence people to do
what they want them to do. I have seen them use that charisma, use that leadership, to get people to enroll in college, to get people to enroll in hustle 2.0 to get them to enroll in all kinds of programs that could help set them on a positive track. And they're not book smart. Right, right. But they do these programs themselves. They're leading I
see them lead by example. I see them step way out of their comfort zones, and say, hey, if one of our guys is like 65, he failed his GED five times until it before he finally passed. And his message to the guys was like, I never gave up. Yeah, I failed five times. And then I finally got my GED. So what's your excuse?
Yeah. And that's why I wanted to pause on that for a second is because if you're not familiar with what's going on, and you've never been to prison, you've never been a part of a group like you are with hustle 2.0 are Defy. The perception is they are the worst thing that they did. Yeah, that defines who they are. And they have no value to society, when in fact, they have a great deal of value, and perhaps more than someone like me, that's what I saw going into Utah prison,
right. I'm a professional speaker, I get up in front of audiences, I spoke with three events, two weeks prior to that what you were able to do with them was so much better than anything I could have done. And why? Because you had been there. And they listened to you and every I was locked on to you. And I was like, You know what, I need to sit back and speak as little as possible. I said some things, right. But it's so important to let you do that.
Because if someone goes through it, and they come out of it, that is so much more powerful.
But what I would say to that is all of the knowledge and experience that I have is what you and other mentors have poured into me that I'm able to channel and give to them. Okay, so
it is valuable, but the value is in someone overcoming Yeah, right. And so you use that knowledge to overcome. Now you can reteach that to people, and it gives them hope that they can overcome. Yeah,
people invested in me. And pairing that with my prison experience, my gang experience. That's a unique lived experience that very few people have.
Yeah, well, and to a much lesser degree, people weren't really interested in so much in what I was had to say about time management, until I told my story about ADHD, right and how I had to overcome that. It's the story of overcoming that is compelling to people. And I'm highlighting this because someone might be listening to the podcast right now. And they're like, Well, I'm dealing with this, I'm dealing with that. I can't succeed. But the reality is, what you're struggling with is what's
valuable. Yep. And you can really help people by overcoming that. And then teaching people how you overcame it.
It's a roadmap. You build a roadmap for other people to overcome and manage and be successful with ADHD. I don't know where they are along in that journey of that roadmap, but if they can find that spot where they are and where they want to be. Yeah, all they have to do is follow it.
And that's what you've done with the curriculum with hustle 2.0 Okay, so let's back up for a second. So you're in prison. You're working on behalf of the gang. For those not familiar What was your role if you're comfortable? No,
I was. My, one of my co workers likes to say I was head of HR. But I enforced the rules. My job is to make sure that everything ran out the clock, all the trains ran on time. Everybody did what they were supposed to do. And if they didn't, that they were disciplined. That was my job, money went where we're supposed to go and also make money, find new ways to make money. And I was really good at that all
great skills misapplied? Yes all great skills misapplied, but I also use them I, I feel like I've always been a compassionate person, even though I have, I have created victims in my life. And I believe we all have created victims one way or another, some more severe than others. But I worked within the constraints that I had in the game, to keep people out of trouble. Like these were just the rules in prison, I can't change the rules. But I can bend and break them to help people.
So what was the first moment where things started to change in your head? Because you've come a long way, since that moment of being the HR director for the prison gang. What was the moment that you look back and say, That's where things pivoted. For you.
It was a day before my 33rd birthday, okay, I was supposed to go home on my 33rd birthday. And instead of going home, I was starting another four year consecutive prison sentence for crimes that committed while I was incarcerated. And that was the day I stayed in from yard and the rules of the game or yard is mandatory. You go to yard, I broke the rules. I told myself, I'm not going out to yard today. I'm gonna stay in, I don't feel good. And I stayed in and I
cried that day. And that was the first day I ever really, really wanted to go home since my arrest. It's 17.
So you brought up another thing that I think people aren't as familiar with. Part of the reason why you keep staying in the prison and lots of people do is because they keep doing the wrong things in prison, like we met last week, one woman who would keep getting in fights and keep extending her sentence until she decided to not fight back.
Which is a to me, it's one of the most courageous choices I've ever seen. Yes. I have never seen no one in prison, not fight back. Yeah. And she had the capacity to do it. Yeah, she was I think it's about two or three times the size of the person fighting her who attacked her.
Yeah. But for her that was a moment that she decided to not keep extending that prison sentence. Yeah. Which, actually just rather than me explaining it, can you talk to me about the psychology behind why people keep doing those things that perpetuate themselves being in prison?
I would say it starts with hopelessness. That when I would engage in those activities, fights, violence, donning drugs, or whatever it was, I didn't have hope that this was I could do anything better. This is the second part of that is building your credit, your criminal resume. Right? Do you have a resume in prison? And it follows you everywhere you go. And it's something that you want to Yeah, I don't I definitely don't want my resume that I didn't fight back. Because now now you are on these
politically correct terms. But in prison, you're a punk. You can't, I can't depend on you. You're not even willing to defend yourself? I can't depend on you. So for that lady to make that choice. That's a pretty bold statement to everyone around her that you can't depend on me to engage in that activity with you anymore.
Yeah. When did you let people know that this was going to be a choice that you were making? That you were trying to get out? And you were going to stop engaging in these? Like, did you announce it to someone? Did you just kind of start doing it and people caught on was
it was a mix of both? Okay, so it was my actions more than it was my words. So when somebody would ask me, Hey, you know, a lot of times in prison, the most easiest thing to do is, Hey, would you pass something from one place to another? And I would let people I'm not doing that. But the problem was, that was my job. My job was to do those things. So what
use are you anymore? If you're not doing that?
Yeah, exactly. Like, if you have an employee, Dave, and he's like, I'm not doing my job. I'm not going to do that. What would you do with them?
Right? So what did they do? Like, how did they respond to that choice?
First, I don't think they've ever had anyone respond with the way that I did before. So I think they did kind of know what to do. And also, I had a pretty good criminal. I had a pretty good prison resume, as well. I'm six foot four, not a not a small guy. I spent four years in solitary confinement for violence. So in prison, I had a pretty good resume that most people don't want to check.
Okay, so I made some people, you know, second guessed there, the next words they made the next words they spoke or their actions, but eventually it was like, Hey, what are you doing? This is not what we do. I was called a punk I was called a coward. I was called every name in the book by the guys who I thought were my homeboys. And they were just acting out of fear as well.
Yeah, if the courage behind that is is at a level that I don't think people understand that you were truly putting your life at risk by making choices like this and other people put their life at risk, to say, I'm going to walk a different path.
And it puts into perspective for me out here. And when I see, sometimes I think, Oh, the world's going to end if I do this, or I'm not that important, the world's not going to end if I have to make this difficult choice. But out here, if we have to fire someone, or if we have to lose a client or a customer where you acknowledge the fear, it's real, right? It's that difficult conversation can create fear. But I don't think that person is going to try to stab you the next day or kill
you for that choice. Like that's not typically out house. No, you know, but in prison worried about
providing for your family? Yeah. My worry about your mental health, but not that someone's going to physically harm you. Yeah, for Yeah.
So for the people that we get to serve, when they make this choice, they are literally putting their lives on the line to change their lives when everyone. I don't say everyone, but when so many people have told him, You're worthless, you don't have value, you don't matter in this world. Right? That's a pretty to me, it's a bold statement of I do matter.
Yeah. And that's what you're trying to communicate to them. And times when I go is you are important, you are valuable, just as valuable as anyone else. You can make an impact, and especially if they do with what you've done, it can change the world with it. Okay, so for those who are not familiar, first of all, let me ask you a question. What is programming? What does that mean in the prison context? So
programming in the prison context is engaging in self help programs, like in a Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, any of the various GED education, college, all programs that are education based that are going to teach some kind of skills, tools, or something that can help you re integrate into society?
Okay. And in this choice that you made, where did programming get involved for you, was defined the first thing or was the steps leading up to it?
Before that I got my GED in 2010, it was my only engagement in programming, and I only got it because they were going to take a good job that I had, if I didn't get my GED. I had a PA job where we used to make boxers for Pa Pa is a prison industry association, okay. And they make everything from glasses to, you name it, they furniture, all these different products and services that they provide, and they use incarcerated people to make these products.
Okay, so and I heard that same thing in Utah, right? Like, people want to be in the culinary program, you got to have your GED. So it kind of pushes people to make that choice. Yeah, it's
a standard that, hey, if you're going to work here, you have to at least be they want to see that you're invested in yourself and some form of education before you can have these highly coveted jobs.
Yeah. And again, for someone who has grown up in an environment where completing high school is a foregone conclusion, going to college doesn't matter.
It was expected to you if I can do these things. Right, right. It wasn't even a question like you're going to college. Right? There's
no question in my family when you're going to college. It's a question which one? Yeah, but if you haven't completed a GED, that's hard. Yeah. That's a lot of work. I know. It's a lot of work because my kids asked me to help them with their map. I'm like, I don't know what it's totally different. So that's, that's a ton of effort and work, whether did the internal work start taking place for
you the internal work did start with defy, okay. When I joined the fight, that's where I had just started, they came at just the right time, I made the choice that I didn't want to die in prison. And then defy came along. And I was like, this is exactly what I want.
Okay, so for those who are not familiar with defy, give us just a brief thumbnail sketch of the kinds of things that they were doing.
So to FY 20 entrepreneurship, it taught me how to transform my hustle. It taught me how to take all these great skills that I had misused for so long leadership, that building a business and taught me how to do it legally taught me how to write a business pitch how to write a business plan, something I've never done before.
Yeah, and that's where we met my involvement with defy I know, the founder quite well, Kat HK, and and coaching her for years. And so we went there, and it was so wonderful to have these conversations where we're hearing guys like you and we, at that time we were only working with with men, at least the times I went share business plans. Yeah, right and share the idea of this is what I'm going to do when I get out and having the opportunity to to coach you and give some feedback
on it. That's such an exciting idea. As someone who loves entrepreneurship, I love that idea of taking it and turning it into a tool for good.
And you were excellent at doing that what it felt like for me when we're getting when I was getting coaching from you, I'm like, Wow, I'm getting this coaching for free, and everybody else has to pay for it. I felt like and then we have to, we got to watch some of your classes in your courses, I'm like, I'm getting let in on this huge secret of how entrepreneurs are successful. And like, I definitely have a competitive
advantage. Like all of you who don't want it, that's great for you, I'm going to use this for me, and I'm going to, I'm going to freaking crush it or whatever I'm doing, I have access to these tools that I never had access to before.
Yeah. And also, I'll share something here to kind of highlight an important part of your story, which was, you started to do the right things with time. And I talked to the group in Utah, I've talked to the group there, Pelican Bay, the one thing everyone wishes they had more of, maybe money is first. But the second one is time. They all wish they had more time. They can't keep up with everything. When you're in prison. That's all you've got. Right? But some people just do the time. Yep.
Right? They'll just pass that away or, right. But the key is to not do the times to use the time. Yeah. And that's what you were doing is you were using that time. And I love to that you mentioned before, like the gang leaders saw this leadership potential in you and but also defy saw it. And so they they had you start leading groups, and getting up in front of everyone. And that's where I saw your gift. I was like, man, John is just so good at commanding attention and leading the room.
And then that's where we had that conversation
was, too for me with you was two key moments for me was when you pulled me over at the end of the event and gave me feedback on how to command a stage how to stop swaying back and forth. How to make eye contact. And you I think you should think as you shared with me like you don't have to look him in the eye look above their heads, they don't know the difference. No. Because like, it feels awkward to just stare
someone in the eye, right. And then during one of the graduations, was when you shared with me, you have this competitive advantage of time, you have this competitive advantage of time, you can wasted away in here, and even asked me like how much time do you have left? And there's three or four years at that point. And they were like, wow, you don't even know that when you hit when you get out here. It's gonna, it's gonna pile up really quickly emails, text messages
and meetings. And yeah, I'm at that point now, just to get this book took so many movements of a calendar to try to get this book because I have so much on my schedule now. Whereas, but that conversation that you had with me around using my time is a competitive advantage to learn how to write, to learn how to edit, to learn how to speak, all of all of these things have are things that I would not have had time to do post release.
Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you took that to heart. And I remember that conversation, I want to be clear about something too. I don't say that kind of thing to everyone. Okay, I'm actually a pretty tough person to impress. So when I was saying all that, I was like, man, John has all these gifts, I am impressed. If he just made a few tweaks to it.
He'd be world class. And then I saw that in the prison, which is how you're choosing to use that gift, which is also just such a generous choice of you to say, I'm going to take this, and I'm going to help other people with it. That's beautiful. So talk to me about how long have you been out of prison now?
almost four years now, I was released in June of 2019.
Okay, and what did you choose to do? After you got out
I already knew what I was going to do. Before I got out. Kat, HK, she came to Pelican Bay and said, Hey, I'm starting this new program called hustle 2.0. I want it to be written in your voices, nobody can speak nobody has lived this life the way you will have. And can you can use your leadership to change gang generate to gain to change gang culture, you can use that. So I started writing for cat while I was in there for hustle 2.0 in developing the
curriculum. And this is where the GED that I was like, I can write curriculum. And I didn't believe that I couldn't. I knew that I could. I just had to apply myself and use my time to learn. And they hired me day one, my first day out, I signed my job offer. And I've eautiful I was just a curriculum developer from day one. And now I'm the Director of Curriculum Development.
Yeah, that's impressive in and I just have to say, we're not going to be able to do justice in a podcast to what that curriculum is. But I will say, you know, I typically don't like to talk about the stuff that I do to support causes. But in this case, I want to talk about it so that people know. So I've been supporting hustle 2.0 for quite a while now. And I would encourage people to go check it out. It's it's hustle 202 zero.com And so I've been providing this book bank scholarships for people
here in Utah. And I kind of knew that it was a good thing to do. Right. I was like, Ah, this is this is helpful. And then we went to the prison last week and I saw people talking about it. And I saw those who are incarcerated saying, Oh man, I love Sluggo just like this flaw in it, right. And I love the part about forgiving yourself and others and like all the things in it, and then them saying, I like it, because it's speaking to me, you are talking to me because you've been there.
And then I was like, my gosh, this is hitting people in a way that no other book can. My books will teach them valuable things. But it's so different when someone like you wrote the curriculum, and is speaking right to their soul with it, whether it
goes to for your books and your LinkedIn learning programs, you're speaking to your audience, you're speaking to fellow entrepreneurs, fellow business, people who need to learn how to better manage their time or be more productive. I'm speaking to people who are incarcerated who want to change their lives, holistically, all the way around, they want to heal from trauma, they want to address substance use disorders, this is what we do. Because I've
dealt with those. I haven't dealt with substance use, but I've definitely been addicted to making money. I definitely have productivity addiction, so much that I need to put boundaries around my work. So for the people that we serve, that's what we're getting at the heart of and I'm using, we're speaking in a language that they
understand. Most of our people have a sixth grade education, a sixth grade reading level, like their their ability, they're not going to crack open a textbook from college and be able to understand or comprehend what's in there.
Yeah, well, and you're helping people do the tough work. Like there's a module about trauma, is that correct?
Yeah, we have a, we have one of our courses, and one of our program modules on processing trauma. Because just like, for me, finding your mom's murder scene at 11 is not something that an 11 year old should see. But that happened. Taking a drug charge for the person who promised to protect you is dramatic, seeing people in prison get hurt, is dramatic, seeing that all the time and then acting like it's normal.
It stays inside, it's a cancer in your in your soul. Yeah. And it influences everything that that you do, or the people who have been through that do. And until they learn how to let go, that it's gonna keep happening, right?
Hurt people hurt people. And until they choose to process some of that trauma. They're just going to continue to hurt other people, and they're going to continue to be hurt.
Another really courageous example that I saw from that visit last week was the woman who read the story about the person, if I'm correct, who harmed her brother. Yeah. And honestly, that was probably one of the most courageous things I've ever seen was that she read that in the curriculum. And it's Ted's herself, I can't go on, I can't support this. And then fought through that, and decided to keep going. With her
herself. Yeah, for herself. We don't. So we have a team of incarcerated writing team members who contribute their stories. And just like myself, we don't hide or act as if they haven't made bad choices. They are in prison because they made bad choices. I was imprisoned because I made bad choices. But now they're using that leadership just like
myself in a different way. And this woman saw that one of our writing team members, who was originally from here in Salt Lake, harmed her brother, and to see that she chose for herself that I'm worth this, I'm worth this, I need this, I need what's in here. And I love that we asked her like, what was your brother, say about you for that courage? And she's like, you'd be proud of me. Yeah. And it was very it was, that was a very emotional experience
was truly amazing. And the thing is, when you do that, whether or not it's something to that degree, when you learn to forgive and accept what occurred, then you can start moving forward. As long as you're holding on to that you're gonna stay in the same place. Yeah, and repeat the same process over and over.
She said, this opportunity is worth it for me. I saw it as she chose to throw away the program, I would have completely understood that is a very traumatic thing to open up a book and see the person you harm your brother, right? But she said it's opportunities for me. I'm not gonna let him have that control over my opportunities and my chances to
be the best person I can be. And she graduated the preseason, which is our first program module with honey badger status HBs which is our light, which is with honors and is on to book one now. Yeah,
you said a couple of things there. They're so important. I'm not going to allow us to have control over my choices. And recognizing that you have a choice in all instances to deal with that. Okay, so, talk to me a little bit about where you see things headed for yourself. So you've been out for years talk to me about the next four years, what do you see
the next four years for myself, I see, I've now stepped in a donor relations role and to a fundraising role to fulfill the scholarship needs that we have across the country. We're now in 48. States and we serve a lot
of people, What needs do you have in terms of the scholarships right now.
So in terms of scholarships, we have around 3000 People in our queue, who are waiting for a scholarship, they want access to hustle 2.0, the state or the prison where they're incarcerated doesn't provide it. So my job now is to go to people and say, Hey, we have this amazing program, we believe I believe we have the solution to help people who are incarcerated, heal from trauma
and change their lives. I need you to partner with me and help make this possible and start them on their journey of transformation.
Yeah. And a scholarship correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding it's $50. It's $50. Yeah. So that's, that's what I've been providing is packets of $50. Yeah, we're more than
single handedly put an entire jail through our program, that jail here that the jail here in Utah that wouldn't have access to this program if it weren't for you. And you actually got to meet one of the Yeah,
that was amazing to meet someone who I gave the book to for that. And what I'm, again, I'm talking about this right now, because what I hope is that someone listening to this is going to say, You know what I want to do that I can for 50 bucks, you can potentially change your life,
and they sent Awesome, thank you notes, when they Yeah, I got to give you a book full of thank you notes from the people who you've put through this program, and change their lives.
Yeah, it's heartwarming to see that. And, you know, there are a lot of things that I can spend $50 on that aren't nearly as impactful as that. So part of what I wanted from this is that you're telling your story, because I think there are a lot of valuable principles, also part of it is I hope, we can get a few people on the side of hustle 2.0 and start looking at how they can do that. And you can just go there, again, I'm going to share the domain hustle to
zero.com. And it's a place where you can make those donations and I'm not asking you to do anything that I haven't done myself. So in terms of you mentioned that you're addicted to productivity, and part of the premise of this show is balanced success. So I'm going to put you on the spot, what do you do to make sure that you're balanced because we don't just want to
have career success. In your case, helping people change their lives, you also need to have balance success in terms of family in terms of fun in terms of taking care of your health. So what are you doing, John to make sure that you're taking care of those things, making sure
I get a minimum number of ski days in when I'm not injured. I injured my knee a couple of weeks ago. So I'm not skiing right now. But I'll be back out there this weekend. So getting ski time and for myself. I love being outdoors
while you're in Utah while I'm here in Utah. Yeah, you can't do that. And go waterskiing, Florida.
I like my I like my water in the form of snow. Water, not my jam.
But on a practical standpoint, how are you making sure that that happens?
So I tie it in with my professional success. So if I'm meeting my goals on a weekly basis of fundraising, and fulfilling scholarships, then I get a half day I'll reward myself with a half day ski day midweek. I have an icon past I can go wherever I want. But taking a half day for myself packing up my computer and saying, from 9am to 12, I'm skiing, and then I'll go park myself in the lodge and work there the rest of the day.
Okay, I like that. And in terms seemed like a physically fit guy. What do you do to take care of that,
that, Oh, there's a gym seven minutes away from from where I'm staying at and making sure that I'm checking in with my accountability partner, who's my partner, and that I work out three times this week. Because if I didn't, then I might not be able to go ski. Okay, I don't have to be. But it was just about a week ago, where she had a really difficult conversation with me around my
work. I was checking emails at eight, nine o'clock, updating spreadsheets really late at night, and was like, You're not there for me.
That's a great conversation and what people don't realize sometimes, especially when you're part of a nonprofit like this, or maybe you have a regular job and you're like I'm trying to help people in the second charitable cause you still have to take care of yourself. You still need to make time for those things. Because if you don't, you're not going to be at your best. You'll help less people by forcing
yourself past that. So take the time to take those breaks and spend time with your family with your loved ones.
Even going into prison for those two days was very healing for me. It was time away from my phone, my computer, and I got to be close to the people that we serve. Instead of filling out a spreadsheet and firing off emails So that was great for me. So I'm doing it again here in a couple of weeks. But what you said right now is very important that I can work until nine o'clock at night, if I want, that's not going to make me any better the next day, I'm actually doing harm to the
people that I serve. Because I'm not able to give them my best, it just starts to pile up. And I don't feel good about myself. And that's not good, because I'm not showing up in my personal relationships the way that I really, really want to.
Yeah. Well, I'm so impressed with what you've accomplished over the last several years, and I'm going to include the time you were in prison, because you were having lots of impact and lots of success, then you're changing lives. And I hope that you as part of everything you're doing, you're getting more and more time in prison and talking to people because as great as the curriculum is that you're creating and the work you're doing. That was magical to see that.
Thank you for sharing that experience it for me, it felt very special, because and I invited you because like you're one of our biggest supporters, but you've been the biggest supporter and champion of me. And I got to meet you, a Pelican Bay got to have these conversations with you to go back into prison and to be able to walk out the way that we did. It is very special to me to do that to be able to do that with you.
Yeah, it was. It was wonderful. Yeah,
I don't I don't know how to describe the experience of being able to walk into a prison with you a walk out of a prison with You. Instead of just standing by watching you walk out of prison, and I'm staying behind.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we went out together. Oh, man, that's a beautiful thought. I didn't think of it that way. Yeah, that's amazing. Okay, John. So here's the point in the conversation, where what I like to do is encourage people who have been listening to do something, yeah. Because it's not about the knowledge that you gain. It's not about the interesting conversation that we had. It's about what you do from
that conversation. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to share a few things, that specific actions that someone listening can take, based on your story based on your example. And then at the end, if you want to share one or two, as well, I'd love for you to do that. So the first thing that I would say is recognizing that you always have a choice, right? You always talk about how people are making bad choices or good choices, right? That led them to
that place. And sometimes people will say, and maybe you brought this up and visit, I made a mistake, now you didn't make a mistake, you made a choice, right, and you whoever you are listening, right now you can make a choice to break the cycle, or to do something positive. And you always have that choice to do that. The second thing that I would say is don't do the time, use the time.
And I'm saying that not just to people who have been or are incarcerated, there are a lot of people right now who are just doing the time in life, right? We see them all the time. And I've been in that spot where you're just like, I'm just gonna coast, I'm just gonna fold and found it in for a while. Taking a break is important. Having fun is important. But ask yourself, what is something that I can do?
That's a little bit more than what I did last week, what's something I can do to gain a little bit more knowledge to educate myself more, and make a choice to really gain that knowledge? And then the third thing is asking yourself, what is the challenge that I'm working to overcome? Right, in your case, John, overcoming the past trauma, overcoming the situation that you had in prison. That's where it's truly remarkable. That's where you're
helping people. In my case, overcoming mental health issues, is part of that story. So if you're listening to this, you say, rather than looking at something that's bad in your life, and saying that's holding me down, you can look at it and say, that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity to overcome and when I overcome it, I can help people with it. So those are three things that stood out to me, what's something that you would suggest someone do, as a result, this,
I'll piggyback off when he says you have a choice. Every single day, you have a choice that has consequences, or benefits. And realizing that you have that choice is very powerful, and weighing your consequences. So I would say one thing that I like is that I'm not a lottery ticket. Like nothing that happened here happened by luck. I didn't get lucky. I worked really hard. So I would love for people to affirm themselves. And that I'm here and I'm where I am because
of the choices that I made. Not because I'm lucky.
Yeah. And even if you were lucky, it's the choices that you made that put you in the position to take advantage of that luck.
Yeah, a lot of people are lucky all the time. It doesn't mean that they succeed. People win the lottery all the time, and that doesn't work out too well sometimes, right? So it's about making the most of the opportunities. The second thing that I would takeaway that I would ask people to do is to forgive? Yes, a woman that we met made a courageous choice to forgive someone and invest in herself.
So if something that is if there's something holding you back, if someone wronged you, if someone disrespected you, whatever it is that you're still holding a grudge and you're missing out on an opportunity because of those feelings of hatred or anger, that's your choice to miss out on those opportunities. I encourage your listeners to say, I'm worth this opportunity. And I'm not gonna let them take it away from me.
Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for bringing that one up. That was that's that's so powerful, so much forgiveness that I've seen through this process. The founder
is the one who has pounded that into us catalog is pounded forgiveness into us. And it really is a very powerful choice that we can make. Find Freedom.
It is a choice. John, thanks so much for coming out here to my home office. And I knew it would be fantastic. It's been a pleasure to talk with you during this time.
Thank you, Dave, for having me, inviting me out here being my friend, mentor. And I can't wait for your listeners to hear this podcast. I know that I hope. And I believe just like you've created change in my life and the life for so many the people we get to serve, this is going to add value to them.
Yeah. And thank you for listening, those who have been following along. Remember, it's not about what you heard. It's about what you're going to do as a result of what you heard. And you can take a little bit of John's story and make it a part of your life forever. So go out there and do something about what you heard today. Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success project hosted by my dad, Dave Crenshaw, and produced by invaluable incorporated sound editing was done by my brother Stratton Crenshaw, research and assisted production by Victoria Bidez was over by me, Darci Crenshaw, and the music is by Ryan Brady via pond five licensing. Please subscribe to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project on Google podcasts, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to get your podcasts. Please don't forget to leave us
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