I'm making $10,000 a year and I have $100 a week expense account. So I thought I was in heaven.
Well, back then that was That was some good money, right? In this episode, you'll get to know Dean Karrel, the Master of Basics, and you'll discover all the little things that he did that led to one very successful and happy life. I'm Dave Crenshaw, and this is my success project. Welcome back friends to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project. This is the show where I teach my children how to be successful through the life stories of others, but you get to come along for the ride and learn
with them. I'm a best selling author, I speak to Fortune 500 companies, and I've taught millions how to be successful through my online courses. And I'm a father of three and my children mean the world to me. So this show is about creating something lasting that will help them succeed. But don't be fooled this show is for adults, too. This is for you. Because I thought you'd enjoy learning along with my family. And I've met so many successful people in
my life's journey. Some of them you might have heard in social media in the news, others fly below the radar, so to speak, but they still have great stories, I also do my best to try to get the stories of people who have balanced success in multiple areas of their lives, not just financial or with their career, because multifaceted success shines like a diamond. And that's the kind of success, I'd like to help my family. And you find that's what the Success
project is all about. So before I begin this interview with a very special guest, who's a very good friend of mine, I'd like to ask you to do one thing as you're listening. No, it's not like or subscribe, although that's great. I'd like to ask you that. As you listen, you look for something, you look for something that you can do, because you're going to learn a lot of wonderful things from
Dean Karrel. Today, I'd like you to pick one that you can act on and do today or tomorrow to implement so that you start to make his example be a part of your life. And boy, you're going to want to make Dean Karrel a part of your life. He's an expert in executive coaching. He's been in sales, management and leadership positions for many decades with some major global publishing companies.
Most recently, he was Senior Vice President of Sales for John Wiley and Sons, which is a major publisher, I've worked with them. And his sales teams have worked with huge retailers, fortune 500 companies like Amazon, Barnes and Noble Costco, and other national chains. Dean now has a consulting business that provides sales training programs along with career and executive coaching, you can find that at the Skyridge group.com.
I know him as a LinkedIn learning instructor where he has dozens of courses on sales and leadership. Dean is also the author of mastering the basics, fantastic book about simple lessons for achieving success in business. And plus, Dean is just one heck of a nice and thoughtful guy, Dean, how are you doing?
Dave, this is such a treat to be here today with you. So thank you so much for the invitation.
Yeah, and we've known each other for quite a while through LinkedIn learning. And we've had a couple of wonderful moments in New York together, you took us out to get oysters. And then a couple of years later, you and I went to the the Jets game there, which was terrible. Let's be honest,
it was was interesting.
But it was great to be with you. And and one thing that I always admire about you, and this is the reason why I brought you on is you are someone who is an example of balanced success. You've achieved a lot in your professional career, but you've always also been a family man. You talk a little bit about why that is.
Well, I've always been a believer of family comes first. And it's something that I learned. I think we learn these things from our parents. And I was also very fortunate, my very first manager in business. And my very first job was with a textbook publisher. And he talked about you know, working hard and going seeing customers and having our obligations to our business. But he said at the end of the day, your family comes first. And I think that is
so so true. I mean, it's we sound like old men, but at the end of the day life is too short. And the time we spend with our children or parents or relatives or friends is something that Do you can never replaced? And that's why I believe in it. There's so much.
Yeah, I mean, we're in the same mindset right there. And that's part of the reason why I decided to even put together this show was to help them. Alright, the audience is along for the ride, they're going to learn along with it. But for me, I'm excited about it. I'm engaged when I think about what I can teach my son Stratton, my daughter, Ella and my other daughter, Darcy. So you mentioned that your parents instilled that in you. I want the whole story as much as we
can, in a brief show. But talk to me a little bit about what it was like growing up, where did you grow up it was it also New Jersey.
I actually grew up in Connecticut than a town called Greenwich and, but my parents moved there in the early 1950s, before Greenwich, Connecticut was Greenwich, Connecticut. And my father bought a piece of property on four acres. And I grew up in a little ranch ranch home, three bedroom home, and across the street where these mammoth homes, but my father always had this little small home on four acres in Greenwich, Connecticut, and talking about a fortunate
living. I mean, I thought everybody had four acres, I thought everybody could play in the woods. And when we'd have playdates, you know, people would have to be ride their bikes or be driven over because everybody lives so far apart. I have a sister who is 12 years older, and I have a brother who is six years older. So for pretty much of my life, I lived as a child with my parents, because my brother had gone off to college, my my sister had
moved away. But again, as I said, my parents instilled in me the belief that the importance of family comes first and caring for each other.
So one thing that is always interesting to me, is the idea that when we're kids, we have some idea about what we want to be when we grow up, and it almost never happens. But other things can happen for you. What was that? That thing you said, I'm going to be this someday when I grow up.
I always wanted to be the next great sports broadcaster. That was my dream. Even in the New York area, it was Marv Albert, who did the New York Knickerbocker games and the Ranger games. He also did national TV, and I idolized the way he announced. And when I went to college, I was a communications and journalism major, and the voice of Ohio Wesleyan University basketball
games and football games. And it was WsL and FM 91 in Delaware, Ohio, 100 watt radio station, which means if the wind blew the wrong way, you couldn't get reception. But I loved it. And I said, this is what I want to do for a living. And the problem was, of course, that there were 1000s of other men and women who all had the same dreams and ambitions of being the next great sports broadcaster, those jobs don't change that often. You know, Al Michaels has been doing this for 50 years, he's
not leaving. So that was the wake up call that unless I wanted to be doing a high school football game. So the rest of my life and a little small town in Ohio, I probably should look for another avenue for my career.
So that's really interesting. Because one thing that I think is a characteristic of your current career, especially with your online training with LinkedIn learning is you do have a very lovely audio presence with your voice, I can hear that influence in the way that you speak. I see it I see it in person too. But you command attention in a very pleasant way, because of your voice. So I don't feel like that was a lost cause it was just borrowed. Right?
Well, I was fortunate, I was able to transfer that to a career in sales and doing sales presentations, and speaking in front of large groups of sales meetings. And I got that confidence in college, in speaking on a radio or speaking, you know, in front of a large group at basketball games or football games, you're still going to get nervous, but you had the ability to adapt and be able to use your skills to overcome any nervousness you might have and be able to speak
publicly. So I was able to transfer those skills I learned in college.
That now that's an interesting thing right there, the nervousness that you feel so do you still feel nervous? Let's say when you're about to record a course for LinkedIn learning are about to go into an interview like this.
Absolutely. And that's a story. I love telling people I have spoken my whole life. I speak in front of people all the time and people will say to me, Dean, you do it like you love it so much, which I do, but I still get butterflies in my stomach. And I still get uptight.
How do you move past that?
It's getting that first minute out of the way and knowing what you're going to do to get started so it's how do you start the car? How do you get ready to run you have to stretch you have to get loose.
It's what I'm going to say during the first minute of you and I talking getting comfortable together reminiscing about our experiences together and then you move on from there you take a deep breath and say, this is a conversation just between Dave and I, I've done 16 courses, not as many as you with LinkedIn learning, I still get nervous when they say Ready, action. And I'm like, I could feel it in my knees, then everything
starts getting better. You got to take a
deep breath and say you know what to do it, you know how to do it. But I often say that if you're not nervous, or if you don't have a little butterfly in your stomach, maybe you're not taking it seriously enough. And getting that's my way of looking at it.
Yes, well, I teach about procrastination, right, and how to fight procrastination. And what I talked about is the emotion that you feel you feel great about the idea when you're planning it, you feel great. Usually, once you start working on it, the one point where you don't feel great is just before you're about to start. Yeah. And so if you can just push past that one moment, then everything starts getting better.
Yes, I agree. It's, I remember when Yeah, be nice to be starting a big sales meeting. And it'd be a 300 people in a room. And, you know, the president of the division or some other executive was making a speech. And I'd be like, sitting in the back going, let's go, let's go, let's because I want to get up there and speak. But you can feel it, you can feel that in your stomach. And then once you get up there, it's a it's a fun experience once you get going. But there is a starting point.
Thinking in terms of grade school, even early years in college, is there a moment in the past that you replay over and over in your mind, it seems like we all have those moments where we go, oh, that and either because it didn't go the way we wanted it to. Or there was something about it that formed who we became, is there a moment like that, that you replay in your mind?
Well, I had a great childhood, I was very lucky. And I again, I grew up in a great town have beautiful high school, terrific neighbors, friends, and so forth. But I have a brother who's a, who is a doctor, retired doctor, then I think he was like a 3.8 or 4.0. And in high school and college, my sister is brilliant, two very smart, very outgoing. And then that was deemed the third child. And I had to work hard. You know, I mean, for me, you know,
I could okay, I was a 3.0. But that was I can college, I was a 3.0 because I got an A in bowling my senior year. So that got my grade. But when I took trigonometry, or if I took advanced math courses, that was a struggle for me, Social Studies was fine English was okay. But math, it's the chemistry class, I'd be looking at that clock on the wall, you know, there's ever going to hit
130 When the class ends. And so the eye opener for me was saying, You know what, there's a point where I just have to be myself, I'm never going to be as smart as my brother. I'm never going to have the skills of languages of like my sister or, or other people I know. And I'm not going to get 1600 on the LSAT. So how do I take the skills that I've been given, and grow and develop it with that? And that takes time to that's a confidence level? As you well know, have you felt those same
feelings as I have? How do we distinguish ourselves with the skills we were given when we were born with?
And it's an interesting thing to hear you say that because you are someone if you say that hard work has gotten you to the place where you are, which I believe and I've met many people who have had that same kind of thing, right. But you work hard. But you make it look effortless. And I believe the effortlessness has come because of the repetition and the hard work that you've put in? Do you feel that that's true in your life?
Well, you spotted something that at the time we met in New York City, where I'm a big believer in planning and preparation, right, take that extra time to do the research. And I remember I had printed out your, your LinkedIn profile. And just Yes, where you went to school, the books that you had written. Remember that? Absolutely. And that's it. How do I, how do I learn a little bit more about Dave Crenshaw and his family before we met, so that we could have some talking
points. And that is what has helped me in my career is just that extra effort of doing research, planning and preparation.
Right. And I loved that moment in particular, and it was so great to see it printed out because Dean, let's be honest, it's 2022, who's printing out web pages. So it may be a little bit update on I'm having a hard time. But what I love so much is because my son Stratton came with us to that I turn the strat and I said, you see what Dean did? This is what you do when you're meeting someone new. Maybe you don't print it out, but you take the time to get to know them to
research them. At what point in your career. Did you learn that that was important? Was that early on? Was that something you learned from your parents? Where along the line? Did you pick that up? Was there a mentor,
I was very fortunate, my very first sales manager, I'm 22 years old. I have a sales territory in upstate New York, Rochester, New York and have a sales manager who's based in Saratoga Springs, New York, his name was Gary Gottschall. And he taught me the basic skills. You know, we're all pretty much the same. There's always that 5% guy who gets an A on every test, who knows all of the answers without studying, but where did the rest
of us fit in? And he said, It's the simple things of show up on time, follow up, smile, say hello. These are all again, the basics, but so many people take for granted. So it's always nice. When people do we smile, you always say hello, well, how hard is that. So my very first manager would say, these are skills you're learn from your parents. And these are skills you learn in business of how you distinguish yourself, or separate yourself from everybody else who may be out in the marketplace.
And you have a wonderful book about that called mastering the basics, which I actually got for my kids to read and learn some of that stuff. But I am going to throw something in here about it. Because yes, you possess all those skills, and you've learned them and you've developed them. But we both know that there are people who can also have those skills of researching people and saying hello, and smiling and everything and get behind it, you know that the intent is purely to make money, right?
When you meet someone in sales, who is going through all those motions as they should, but you don't feel the care. And one of the things that I know about you, Dean, and I've come to love about you, is all of those skills underneath have a current of I love people, and I care about people. Where did that come from? Or is that just who you've always been?
Well, I'm fortunate, I think that's who I am again, but I did learn that from family and friends. And, again, for me, yes, we all want to have income and a bank account that's flush with money. But at the end of the day, it's friendship and it's family. And it's friends that that's what it's all about. I take pride in the fact that when my kids were growing up that, yes, I traveled all over the place, I have a million miles on United, it's half a million on American
Airlines. But I got home in time for my daughter's basketball games as best as I could for events that my son was doing. And I would take the red eye from California, and do the 24 hour trips back and forth in Chicago. So I could be there for family events. When people say I work, you know, I work 18 hours a day. And you know, I'm Silicon Valley executive and I pride myself of working all these
hours. Again, life's too short, you know, I mean, so it's, it's you want to experience what family means what friendship means. And it's just in my inner core of what I believe.
Yeah, yeah. And what I want to do, and in fact, with every guest that I bring on, I don't want to bring on someone who is just financially successful. I believe that there are six achievements, your relationships, your health, your profession, your money management, and a cause, which is greater than money, and then having fun. And I think you're a great example of good balance with all of these things.
Well, you're preaching to the choir, because you are a great example of you could use a phrase, you're going on your oasis, and you shut down. I mean, you go away. I mean, you say I'm taking the family, and we're going to England, and we're going to France or whatever. We're just staying home. Just a staycation. Yes. And you said a great example for that. And people
should learn from that. There's always going to be opportunities to do another job or find a way to make money, but you're never going to get back the lost opportunities of spending it with your wife and your children.
Yes. Okay. So let's let's go back to the dean story here, the progression, the origin story of the hero known as D. So you're in you're in college, right? You're studying broadcasting, correct? Yes. So where was the turning point in your career? Because I know you went into was it publishing first or was there some stuff before publishing?
So I graduated, I graduated with a degree in communications and a minor in journalism. I love writing and I love current events and things like that and the broadcasting aspect. And then when I graduated, and I realized the wake up call was, you know, NBC is not calling for me to do the game of the week, the Yankees vs. Red Sox. And, and it would be a long struggle, so you have to earn an income. And you know, bartending can only last so long and so I worked at a restaurant
And I did that. And then I said, How do I take my skills from College of writing, and communications and take that to a career that I could actually make some money. And I interviewed with publishing companies. My first job at 22 was, again with Prentice Hall, which is now Pearson. And I became a sales representative calling on professors in upstate New York from Syracuse to Buffalo, Jamestown to Elmira, a territory with you know, 50
different Moats. They were all community colleges and business schools, business schools, meaning business Institute's not MBA business schools, but you know, the Elmira School of Business, and Elmira, New York. So I would see professors with PhDs, I was 22. I looked about 16, it talks about a learning curve, and talk about a real hit on the confidence of like, what the heck am I doing?
So you're out there, you're making these sales calls? You're young, you're you said 22? Right? How much training did you have, before they threw you to the wolves so to speak? Did you feel prepared? Or did you feel like you were just making things up, as you heard going along?
Again, I was very, very lucky. In this day and age, we see all the time, people who were thrown to the wolves, go make calls or go to try to sell something. Prentice Hall had a really good intensive training program gathering information, assessing need at that process of presenting product imp, still remember all these years later,
nice. And my first sales calls were before the training mean, they go find the accounts of where they were, I used to bring bags of catalogs and samples, and oh my gosh, and I would bring my whole office with me when I go see customers. And then I realized after the training is how you customize it for when I'm visiting somebody like Dave Crenshaw, versus seeing somebody like Todd do it, or whoever it might be of how you customize your presentation
based on who you're visiting. So I get I was very fortunate, I worked with the number one publisher, Prentice Hall at the time, it was Prentice Hall versus McGraw Hill, I call that community colleges only, which means no one else really did that. At that time. They didn't have sales representatives calling at community colleges. So when I would show up, even though I looked inexperienced, and young professors would actually say, Come right in. So I thought sales was easy.
Because number one supplier number one product in a territory where other sales representatives really didn't show up, you know, so I'm making $10,000 a year and I have $100 A week spent expense account, so I thought I was in heaven.
Well, back then that was That was some good money, right? Okay, so what was the mistake? The obviously you were young during that time, and to be young is to make errors and learn from them, which you certainly have what's one mistake that you made during that time?
Well, I thought all sales was that easy. I got promoted. And I went to a different division of the company where I had to now work and sell to supermarket chains, and non traditional markets for books. And who people didn't know my company didn't know what I was doing. And I would show up and I would be told get out. This was an error. So we did a lot of face to face sales calls. You knocked on doors, you waited
in waiting rooms. This is like Willy Loman Death of a Salesman you sat in salesman's offices. So from being Prentice Hall, number one, textbook publishers have asked selling general interest books and business books to non traditional markets. I heard the word no. So the mistake was, Wow, I really have to be ready. And I have to learn to have a thick skin. It's not you can't take it personally, in business or in sales when somebody says no, there's a reason for it. But I
took it personally. And it's a big lesson of it's tough out there that times.
So the first lesson that I want to draw from that is that changing your target customer changes everything. A lot of times people make the mistake of thinking, Oh, I'm going to sell to everyone, whatever it is, or because I've had success in this area, I'm going to have success in another area. And it's just not true because the psychological the demographic makeup, what the workday is like is radically different in your case from education to grocery stores, right? Absolutely.
I say I'm Prentice Hall. I go to Monroe Community College in Rochester, New York. Hello, Dean. Great to see you again. And then six months later, I'm in Albany, New York calling on Price Chopper supermarkets. And it was dean who Prentice Hall watch, you sell textbooks. You know, and none of No, no, we have no time for you. Right? And
what are you even doing here?
Yep, exactly right. It was exactly. It's so true. So that was a real learning curve again in my early 20s.
So I know that at some point, there was a change. And you started working for Wiley, which is really how you at least first heard of my first book, The Myth of Multitasking? Talk to me about what made that change? How did you end up at Wiley? Why did you think it was time to make a change?
Another great person I worked for was a guy by the name of George Stanley, who had gone from Simon and Schuster to Wiley and I saw him one day at a convention. And he said to me, Dean, there's an opening in one of our businesses, you should apply for it, then lo and behold, I did and I got the job there.
And how long were you with Wiley, 22 years,
22 years at Wiley, great company, publicly traded company. But the family is still heavily involved seventh eighth generation since 1807. The Wiley family is still involved. And you could be having a conversation with them, Dave, and you would never know that their name is on the building, just truly authentic, genuine, caring people. But as you know, the publishing industry is tough. And it certainly changed since the mid 90s, or 2000s. And now it's a it's a real difficult
business. But when I was there it was I just had a great time I loved it.
Give us just a thumbnail sketch of what your day was like when you were working? What What was what were they paying you to do?
I had I had a manager who I portrait George Stanley, who was like my blocker. I mean, he kept me away from all the bureaucracy of the company. And he let me work with the sales teams that I managed. It was the heyday of publishing, Barnes and Noble was growing, borders, bookstores were still strong, they had to go out of business yet, books were being sold all over the place. There was a small online retailer starting in Amazon. And you could put books everywhere. And it was fun. And Wiley was
acquiring and growing. So I felt I had a different job every year.
And so I have a course on LinkedIn learning called Finding Your Time management style, and people self assess. And what I find is fascinating is I called the variety consistency scale. So on one side, you have people who want variety, and they want things to change up regularly. And that makes the job more interesting. And then other people want consistency. They want to do the same thing over and over, because it helps them
feel the routine they love. So it sounds like you would lean more toward the variety side of things is that accurate?
Well change can mean a variety of things as positive change, which is acquisitions and growth and the company is expanding. And there's a negative change when you're going in the other direction and restructuring and reorganizing, where nobody likes that change. So wildly during that period of time was
acquiring and adding. And we were adding staff and bringing in new people and energetic people, fun people and good retailers, brick and mortar retailers, independent bookstores are struggling, but they were still powerhouses in each city. And the online retail market had not yet exploded yet.
So you were there for 22 years. And you saw the transition to electronic publishing. And then gradually, were you still there when it started to have the gradual decline of the publishing industry because of everything that happened with Amazon,
you know, the world changed in the US, I think in 2008 It was an economic crisis then. And borders, bookstores started to struggle. Amazon became more powerful. So the the business really changed and it became a struggle to get you will you know this firsthand in your first books published how hard it
was published, right during that time. Oh, that's when met the multitasking came out with this 3000 The first edition
Yeah. And that was it was so tough. So instead of having fun and working with customers, it was the struggle to keep customers, our retailer still in business. Amazon, God bless them is a terrific company, but they're tough and they got very, very powerful. And and they do a marvelous job, obviously in distributing distributing books and everything. But they put pressure on all retailers from Barnes and Noble to the small Corner Bookstore. And so around 2010 borders, went out of
business, went chapter 11. And then some of the smaller distributors went out of business and the industry started to consolidate then unfortunately, I had the job of restructuring, reorganizing, which is a nice way of saying I had to let people go. So that's not fun. And
that Oh, what an interesting evolution. Right? I mean, you because you're talking about how you were in it for 22 years it was expand, acquire new people bring it on and you see this right And then you started to see it fall again, that would probably be, I'm imagining trying to be you in that situation, that would have been an intense feeling to see that.
It was said, because, again, the industry had been so strong, the company had been so strong, and we had to make changes, we grew. And now we need to consolidate. But if you're sitting across the table from somebody, and if I've hired you, Dave, and then I have to go and look at you in the eye and say, Dave, unfortunately, the business has changed, and your job has been impacted, and your job is going to be eliminated in three months. That's horrible. And unfortunately, I got good at
it, which is so countered to who you you are at your core? Well,
I people would say, Dean, you have stress on your face, no one wanted to let people go. While he was a very family oriented, caring company. And the latest, I said that why we family embraced everybody. And then here it was, for the right reasons we needed to consolidate. So I came back from a trip once and somebody from Human Resources said, Dean, you do this, so we'll let people go with such care and compassion. And I said, You know what, it's nice. I don't want that on my
tombstone. You know, he left me with care and compassion. And, you know, it was time and I left the company 2015. So it was three years of real difficult times, restructuring, reorganizing, redeploying all of those words, the buzzwords, and I left on good terms. So it was this time. And I needed to explore new opportunities in my life and career, I still am in good standing still stay in touch with people with the company. But it was, I was not happy. It was not happy.
Yeah, what doesn't, it doesn't surprise me that you, you're still in good standing with them? Because that's just part of who you are. You build relationships. So well. I think we're all better for the fact that you didn't stay in that place that you were uncomfortable, because what you've been doing since then, is remarkable. So talk to me about the things that you were doing when you left in 2015.
So it's understandable to talk with people. Now sometimes when they leave companies, they say, Well, I'm going to take you talk about the word oasis. But some people use the phrase, well, I'm gonna we're gonna re energize, regroup, and they take six months off after they leave a job. And I can't I couldn't do that.
And if I can just insert, that's not what I recommend with the Oasis, the whole, the whole point of taking breaks is it's a break. And it's brief. And then you go back to what you're doing. So you couldn't sit still, you had to keep going.
So I left on January 30. And by February 2, I was sort of figuring out trying to figure out what my plan would be. And I was talking about having plans, you got to have a strategy, I could have gone to another publisher. But I would have faced the same hurdles. But that would have been an easy choice. Just join another company, I could use my sales experience and go to a different parallel industry, possibly, maybe music or entertainment
communication. And then you start to think more radical ideas, you know, what are the things that I enjoy doing? Well, I enjoy working and coaching with people motivating and encouraging. So you get that aspect of training and coaching. And I said, Well, let me explore that. And I went back to school, I applied to New York University's Human Resources Program with coaching and career
advising. And that was the smartest thing I could have done because it reenergized me in work with students, half my age or more. They're all in their late 20s, early 30s, early 20s. And I was in classes. And it was so much fun, so much fun, until I had one class where the instructor says we're going to be doing eight papers of 15 pages each. And what I'm saying is I'm not going to be me. So I quickly dropped out of that
class. And by reinvigorated me to learn that I wanted to do what I think that I'm good at, and that's helping motivate people overcome obstacles, focus on their positive skills.
How did you isolate that? Let's talk about that for just a second. How did you you just said, I want to focus on what I what I'm good at? What was the process that you went through to make that recognition? So you knew that's what you should focus on next in your career.
I'm a big believer in writing things down and you can did this in business school. You do the SWOT analysis, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. I do the personal one. And it's very easy to write down our weaknesses. I'm not good at this. And you know, and I struggle with that. And I tried to well, what are your biggest what are the three biggest strengths? Dave, you're good with people. You're always
upbeat, you're encouraging. And one of your strengths is you're incredibly honest, you're incredibly open with some of your false, which people learn from you've said struggles in your life and you've been very open with that in you know, post you have on LinkedIn. So As you write down things, you write down your strengths and weaknesses, opportunities and
threats. So, so for me the opportunities when I say, I like sharing that I've struggled, I like sharing that I get nervous speaking in front of people and my faults, it shows that unreal, it's okay to admit that you need to improve in certain areas. And it's okay to take credit. Me, Dave, you're really good. You're talking about your focus and commitment. So you're not multitasking. And if you don't, you can't multitask, you need to
be focused, as to why. And so it's sharing the those types of things with people that I think that can help them overcome the hurdles that they may be experiencing.
And so the way that you translated that was through through coaching through consulting, after you left,
what you said, you know, earlier, we spoke about having a targeted audience, and I did the thing, the exact thing you're not supposed to do. Or I said, I'll coach anybody.
Right? Sometimes you have to start with that, right? Because you don't know who your audience is until you start coaching people I
learned quickly. Quickly, so I thought I would be working with guys in their 50s my age, the stage of their lives and career. And I found that,
yeah, can I Yeah, so can I say something about that? That is a common mistake. When people try to identify the demographic, the profile, I call it your most valuable customer, the most common mistake I see is that people say, someone like myself, same age, demographics, and backgrounds. And it's like, that's not necessarily true. I don't necessarily target people like myself, I typically am targeting people younger and helping people who are younger.
And, but But you have to, you have to start coaching and consulting until you figure that out. So you figured that out. I think
my first three clients were all my age, and they were torture, and they didn't listen. They didn't want it that they were ever it was everybody else's fault. Age Discrimination was the first thing they talked about. And they had, there was no optimism, no, anything positive, and the world was against them. And I was like, oh, man, this is gonna
be tough. And I quickly learned for me the audience was people in the middle stages, early stages of their career, who are willing to be open to new ideas, mostly women. And then the growth develops through word of mouth.
Absolutely interesting. So you've done that for a while. But then you started working with a company you and I both know and love very well, LinkedIn learning. How did that come about?
Well, I actually I love telling the story because I talk about networking a lot in my work now and how important it is to stay in touch with people and just respond to people. And again, I used to work at Wiley and many people from Wiley ironically transferred their skill sets to work with lynda.com at the time now LinkedIn learning. And there was a woman who posted on LinkedIn about seven years ago, she posted a story about corporate transitions and change that she
had been through at Wiley. And I remember responding to her and said, How insightful it was and how thoughtful it was, how good it was. And then she said to me, Dina, it's so interesting that you wrote to me, because I'm content manager at LinkedIn learning now that I didn't really realize that. And she said, I'm looking for somebody who could teach a basic sales course. And I think you might have worked with this woman to Kathy Sweeney, absolutely asked
her name. And she said, Dean, could you do a course on basic sales, and we had stayed in touch and then lo and behold, there I am. And then I've worked with a number of people who used to be part of Wiley, Susan Williams. My Content Manager now is Kate gag, Don, and he worked with Wiley worked with Josie bass, the company that one of your books is published with Dan broadness, who oversees a lot of the management of the content strategy and development of
LinkedIn learning. He worked with a company called Cyber x, which was acquired by Wiley in the early 2000s. And he had remembered me because he said to me thing, I remember when we were acquired, you came to my office and said, Hello. And lo and behold, our paths crossed 15 years later, and he remembered that sequence so
so they evolved along with you.
Yes. So he, his his career really evolved. He went he started an online learning many years ago then got in tech into technology, and then was with this technology company side Beck's which again, they're probably about for content managers in the technology side at LinkedIn learning who worked at Wiley. We've all gone different ways that then came back together. Years later, never burn a bridge. Always be good to people. And it's amazing, right?
Yes. So that's a fantastic point. I mean, even my agent Matt Wagner, was able to succeed as an agent because he built relationships when people transitioned from traditional publishing to online learning, which we have now. And it doesn't surprise me that you've been successful Dean, because you always build relationships, you always put that first. And
so that opens doors. And it may be opened doors decades from now that you I've had things that were someone will come back to me and they're like we talked 15 years ago. And now I want to work with you. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I didn't even think that that would happen. And it
can do you don't? Do you need a Harvard MBA to do that? No, I just say it's just being good to people. And if you don't have anything good to say you move on.
So what does the future hold? In the next 510 years? Where are you headed Dean?
Again, I'm at a different stage of life and career net, they my kids are out of college, they're on their own. They're both married, my wife and I are in this house. Now I mentioned before we started our conversation today, we're in the process of moving so our house is full of boxes and moving a mile up the road. So I pick and choose what I want
to do. It's a nice lifestyle to be and so I'm not working 40 hour weeks, I'm doing a little coaching, I still am going to be doing an updated LinkedIn learning course, over the next six, six to eight months. I still love doing presentations, I'm doing a lot of presentations to or not a lot of doing a number of presentations to schools, who talk about how you get into business. You know, it's that class on the real
world of business. At a St. Francis College in Brooklyn, I go to every semester, talking about life experiences and how a B student can be successful in life and career by just being yourself. And I just wanted to share one thing, David, going back that we first started about believing in yourself, and I think I've talked to you about this before, I have a note that I've kept in my wallet for 40 years. And he said I love it.
You ever had those moments. And this was you know, Dean, remember, May 25 wasn't too good. I left a great job at Wiley. I made my I made a nice piece of money working at Wiley and I worked with great people. And when I left they refer to that note, what the heck did I do? It wasn't the right move. And it was the right move. And it was the right time. So our life is a roller coaster at
times of highs and lows. And again, you talk about this a lot is how do you try to keep it as you're always gonna have ups and downs. But how do you keep it as stable as possible? And that's the message I always loved in talking about with people.
That is such a powerful thing. You just said, our careers are on a roller coaster. There will be ups and downs with it. The question is, can we smooth that out? Can we go from it being too intense to being enough that we can manage as we make that that journey through it.
And it's okay to raise your hand and say I need some help. I need some support and need some assistance. You don't need to be a hero. I mean, we've certainly seen it over the past two and a half years, three years with COVID where people were home, struggling trying to figure out the balance of work family and life. And again, you talk about this all the time.
You've been a you've been a flag waiver and a helper of people you've helped so many people for being so honest about that, that it's okay to say I need some assistance.
Yeah, mental health is is a top priority for me having dealt with much of it. All right, Dean, this is the point where I put draw some summaries and pull out some lessons that people who are listening, and my kids can take from it. Before we do that, I'd like to just pause and say if you could send everyone who's heard about you learned about you and now they love you because your your impossible not to love. Where would you want them to go? After hearing
I'm on LinkedIn, three or four times a week, not about sales are not about my books are not about I talk about this things that I believe in and things that have happened to me and I'll do there might be a video or it might be a short photo or picture of Dave Crenshaw's book. And it's this life. And so Dean Karrel at LinkedIn. And that's where you can learn about me my business lessons and personal lessons, sales lessons and just life lessons.
Wonderful. Just do a search Dean Karrel, LinkedIn, Karrel is K A R R E L. I follow Dean. You're a fantastic writer. It's wonderful. So I'm going to pause for just a second, I'm going to look at some of the things that I wrote down some of the notes that I made. And I'm going to draw out a few lessons. And then at the end, and I'm going to ask you to add one one lesson to that. So the first thing that I really loved was you want it to be in broadcasting when you were
young. That didn't work out but what you did was you converted a skill from what you learned with that into something very powerful, all of that broadcast Learning now comes into play with LinkedIn learning. And it comes into play with sales presentations. So not everything that doesn't turn out is a waste of time. Often the skills that we learned can be used later on. So that's one that stood out for me, the second one, find a culture that is a fit for you.
Right? If you were working at a place that was a cultural fit, and then it transitioned to something that was not, and you didn't stay, if you're in a place where you feel uncomfortable every day, because the way people behave, because of the way the company is run, that's probably not a fit for you. And I feel like that's really important. Because even in an age where people are transitioning from company to company, after a few years, you want to find a place that you
love, and you feel as a fit. So I love that one. Boy, there's so many lessons you gave us Dean, but I'm gonna limit it to three in the spirit of focus, when you had that turning point in your career, you took the time to identify your strengths, and analyze who you are. And you took a look at that and said, I am going to be successful in another area that still uses those strengths. And I think that we all need to take time to
analyze those strengths. And if I can't, I'm just going to make a plug, I have a course called discovering your strengths on LinkedIn learning that can help with that. Whether or not you take that though, take a time do an inventory. So those are my lessons. Dean, if you could share one takeaway lesson. For my kids who are soon starting their career? What would it be
knowing when it's time to move on? Whether it's early stages of your career, or my stage of career, it's knowing what is the right path for happiness and success, and the care and love of your family coming first.
That's wonderful. For those of you who are listening right now, I'd like you to pick one thing, what's one action you're going to take as a result of what you learned from Dean's story. And it might not even be one of the things that Dean and I mentioned. But take time to schedule, the first action step of doing that. Put it in your calendar. What is more important than what you heard during this is what you
do. And if you do something about what you learned, that's going to move you faster along the path to your own success story. Dean, my gosh, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. And we need to get together. Even if it means we brave another terrible game in the cold or just you know, getting together for dinner. We need to do that soon. I love you so much, my friend. Thank you for coming.
Well, it's a mutual feeling. I am so glad that you and I have crossed paths over the course of our career and it was an accident in Carpinteria six years ago, you were doing a course I was doing a course. And we built out it from there and to see you multiple times now and spend this time together. I feel so fortunate. And Dave, thank you so much for letting me join you today.
Absolutely Dean.
You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project, hosted by my dad, Dave Crenshaw, and produced by Invaluable Incorporated. Sound editing was done by my brother, Stratton Crenshaw. Research and assistant production by Victoria Bidez. Voiceover by me, Darci Crenshaw. Show consulting by Andrew Marino, and the music is by Ryan Brady via Pond Five licensing. Please subscribe to the Dave Crenshaw Success Project on Google podcast, Apple podcast, or wherever you like to get your
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