Hey, I'm Tracy Mumford. You can join me every weekday morning for the headlines from The New York Times. Now we're about to see a spectacle that we've never seen before. It's a show that catches you up on the biggest news stories of the day. I'm here in West Square. We'll put you on the ground where news is unfolding. I just got back from a trip.
And bring you the analysis and expertise you can only get from the Times newsroom. I just can't emphasize enough how extraordinary this moment is. Look for The Headlines wherever you get your podcasts. From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the fallout.
from the extraordinary televised Oval Office shouting match between Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, and Volodymyr Zelensky. My colleague, Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, walks us through the clash and its consequences. It's Monday, March 3rd. Peter, thank you for making time for us on a Sunday afternoon, no less. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
I'm curious, Peter, where in the pantheon of moments that you have witnessed at the White House over the past 30 years to date you does what happened in the Oval Office on Friday fit, would you say? Yeah, Michael, I've been covering these meetings at White Houses since 1996, and I've never seen anything like this. Never. You had the president of Ukraine, Vladimir Zelensky, show up for a meeting with the president of the United States, Donald Trump, in the middle of a war.
with so much at stake. And so, you know, everybody was looking to this meeting to see how it would come together. I mean, it was extraordinary. It was excruciating. It was a brutal dressing down of a foreign leader in the Oval Office. Presidents just don't do that. They get frustrated at times, and sometimes there are pointed moments, but nothing like this verbal assault that we've seen, even on an adversary, much less on an ally.
And I think in history, we're going to look back on this as a unique singular moment. Right. And not just for the spectacle of it, but for its actual consequentialness. Absolutely right. This is a rupture of a relationship now between the United States and Ukraine, 11 years after Russia first invaded, three years after its full-fledged invasion in 2022. And America has been Ukraine's best friend, biggest partner, most important.
And if this rupture, this blow up, this meltdown in the Oval Office means that the relationship now is on the rocks, it has great consequence for Ukraine especially. It has great consequences for Russian aggression. in the world for Europe and for the United States, I would say. Right, and for all those reasons, I suspect, history will keep turning over this encounter for a very long time, as will we.
in this conversation in a few moments. But I think it's worth setting up a bit what led to this blow up and talk through the kind of dynamics into which both men entered. Right. Well, first of all, it's important to know the history. President Trump has never liked... Ukraine in particular. He was convinced way back in his first term that Ukraine had been opposed to his election in 2016. This is a Russian talking point. This is a Russian intelligence.
fable but one that Trump bought into and of course Zelensky was the other guy on the phone he had the quote perfect phone call not so perfect that led to his impeachment in which he tried to bully Zelensky into launching a fake investigation of Joe Biden. Right. Two men have never had such awkward history, perhaps, as world leaders.
Very awkward history. And during the last four years, when Trump was out of office, he was never supportive of Ukraine in his war against Russia. He praised Vladimir Putin for being a genius, for sending troops to pressure Ukraine into making concessions. He opposed aid to Ukraine, basically blocked it by Republicans in the House, forced them to block it for about six months. And sitting next to him was J.D. Vance, who was famously quoted saying, I don't care what happens.
So these are not supporters of Ukraine going into this meeting. And then over the last two weeks, you see the relationship really... changed dramatically. Instead of Joe Biden sending arms and standing with Ukraine saying, we will never, never, never not be with you, you have Donald Trump coming in and calling Zelensky a dictator.
saying it was Ukraine, falsely, that started the war, adopting Russian talking points about whether Zelensky should have to have elections, never mind that Vladimir Putin is the dictator, that he started the war, and that he has fake elections at home. He was basically 180 degrees changing American policy.
toward Russia and Ukraine, making clear that in this new Cold War that we've been talking about now for so long, America was essentially switching sides. Right. And for Zelensky, this is existential for him, and he faced this pressure from Trump. to sign a rare minerals deal, handing over.
a lot of Ukraine's natural resources to the United States without any assurance that the United States is going to give them anything back. Trump said, you owe us basically for all the aid that Biden gave you over the last three years. Right. So Zelensky...
unhappily, grudgingly, comes to Washington as almost a supplicant to sign this agreement, hoping that that will keep Trump on Ukraine's side in any future peace talks. Right. So Zelensky, as you've clearly just laid out here... has no affection for Trump, but will agree to come to Washington to sign this minerals deal, mostly to protect whatever existing frayed, attenuated relationship the U.S. still has with Ukraine.
as a supporter of its defense. Yes, that's right. Because he hopes that it will keep the United States on Ukraine's side, give it something at stake. in the war, in this case, economic stakes, and he knows how much that matters to Trump. So Zelensky shows up at the White House on Friday morning, and Trump comes out at the door to greet him as he does with foreign leaders. And they have a polite...
but not a lot of warmth, I would say. And Trump makes a comment as Zelensky arrives that later, I think, becomes kind of telling. He says, I see you came dressed up. for the occasion. Zelensky, of course, is wearing his tactical dark sweater, one of the versions of the combat type clothing he's been wearing for the last three years in solidarity with Ukrainian soldiers. Right.
They go into the Oval Office. They take their seats. There's a number of top officials there. J.D. Vance is there. Secretary Rubio is there. And the meeting gets off to a relatively fine start. Well, thank you very much. It's an honor to have... President Zelenskyy of Ukraine.
And we've been working very hard, very close. So we've actually known each other for a long time. We've been dealing with each other for a long time and very well. But Zelensky's trying to make sure Trump understands that Ukraine is the victim, not... the villain in this war. I wanted to share with you some images.
Can I know? Yeah, please. And he shows in pictures of Ukrainian men and women who have been released from Russian prisons and how emaciated they are, how terribly, you know, abused they had been in Russian captivity. to get Trump to see that the Russians are the bad guys here. I mean, it's looking tragic. Yeah, that's tough stuff. And the first 20 minutes, 25 minutes or...
perfectly normal, perfectly fine, but you begin to hear a little bit of an edge. You begin to hear a little bit of the tension that's there. Does that provide security guarantees, Mr. President? I don't want to talk about security yet because I want to get the deal done. You know, you fall into the same trap like everybody else. A million times you said over and over, I want to get the deal done. Security is so easy. That's about 2% of the problem.
I'm not worried about security. I'm worried about getting the deal done. And they just don't see the war in the same way. Before my presidency, from 2014, Putin broken 25 times. 25 times. He broken his. own signature. 25 times he broke his fire. But he never broke to me. No, no, you were the president. You were the president. He never broke to me. In 2016, you've been the president, Mr. President. You've been the president, but he...
Zelensky does not want Trump to negotiate a ceasefire with Russia with no conditions, and Ukraine gets nothing out of it. He doesn't think Putin can be trusted. That's why we will never... He doesn't think that a ceasefire would hold. So he says, I need security guarantees. And that's what he's there to ask the United States for. And Trump does not want to have anything to do with it.
I don't think you're going to need much security. I think once this deal gets done, it's over. Russia is not going to want to go back and nobody's going to want to go back. When this deal ends, I really believe this deal is going to be over.
But then in the midst of this back and forth, suddenly you hear a new voice. It's the vice president, J.D. Vance, who hasn't really been talking in the meeting. And he pipes up and he says, I want to interject here. And he offers a point of defense of Trump's... approach the conflict. Trump is the one, he says, who's going to bring peace. He's going to be engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing. Can I ask you? Sure. Yeah? Yeah. Okay.
And Zelensky, who's been listening to all this, really feels like he has to respond here. People have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped here. And Zelensky basically proceeds to pick apart this idea that diplomacy is necessarily going to work. He points out there's a long history here. The war didn't just start three years ago. It started in 2014 when Putin first sent forces into Ukraine.
began seizing parts of eastern Ukraine. And he points out that this war had been going on ever since, including... during Trump's presidency. Yes, but after that, he broke his fire. He killed our people and he didn't exchange... prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it. And that seems to get under Trump and Vance's skin. Right. It feels worth noting that in this moment, Zelensky...
decides to call the vice president J.D., not Vice President Vance. What kind of diplomacy, J.D., you are speaking about? What do you mean? Perhaps history will not note this as an important moment. I noted it. Yeah, absolutely. And look, you know, on one level, you can say he's trying to be friendly with him. Sometimes foreign leaders do refer to each other by their first names, but...
Vance takes offense and then jumps back in. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media. And this is when things go from bad to very bad. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring it into this conflict. You start hearing Vance say, you should be grateful to us. And really putting Zelensky on the defensive there. And Zelensky, of course, has thanked America.
for three years quite prolifically. But, you know, what's actually, I think, striking about that demand by Vance, you should be thanking us, is he is demanding that somebody thank two leaders who haven't supported. Ukraine. Trump and Vance don't support Ukraine, and yet he is saying, you have to thank us. Right. And as Vance and Zelensky are really kind of going at it. Do you disagree that you've had problems?
Like bringing people into your military? Vance is pushing Zelensky on problems that the Ukrainian military is having with manpower and so forth. And Zelensky says, yeah, of course, we have problems. You'll have problems too, though. Even you, but you have nice ocean, and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. Yeah, just translate what he's saying there, because it feels like a really important point Solensky's trying to make.
His point is that Russia poses a threat to the United States, not just Ukraine. A lot of times Trump talks about this. He says, this is really a problem for Europe. It's not for us. In fact, Trump has said we have this big ocean between us. So what do we care what happens in Ukraine? And Zelensky is pushing.
Pushing back on that idea is, listen, yes, you have this nice ocean and you don't feel it now. A lot of distance between you and Russia. That doesn't mean that Russia isn't also a threat to the United States. That doesn't mean the United States doesn't have a stake in this, has an interest in who wins this war and whether...
Russia comes out of it feeling rewarded for its aggression. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. This is the moment that Trump now jumps in. what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good. And he begins to really kind of berate Zelensky in this very aggressive way. You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now.
With us, you start having cards. Right now, you're playing cards. You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III. In effect, what Trump is saying is, Zelensky, all you need to understand is that you have no power right now. We have all the power. Get on board or you're in real trouble. Yeah, exactly.
People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. Listen, you're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing. Then you tell us. I don't want to cease fire. I don't want to cease fire. What he's saying is you have to accept whatever deal I make with Putin. You don't have any power. You're not able to influence things. And that's a really extraordinary thing to say to the leader of a country.
war. He's saying, you don't get to choose here. I'm the one who's going to choose here. Because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards. But without us, you don't have any cards. What an extraordinary moment, right? Right. These two leaders really going at it over who and what happens in this conflict in the heart of Europe. We should say...
At this moment, all three of these leaders, seasoned leaders, could have chosen to de-escalate what's becoming an incredibly acrimonious, almost shouting match. But they don't. They all seem quite loaded for bear. They do. This is where clearly a lot of weeks, if not months of tension have come to the surface and they're just...
exploding in this meeting. And they're saying what they have been thinking or feeling for quite a while. And it just escalates rather than de-escalates. And you finally get to the point where Trump is re-litigating the whole Russia investigation. let me tell you putin went through a hell of a lot with me he went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and russia russia russia russia you ever hear of that deal that was a phony
That was a phony Hunter Biden, Joe Biden scam. Hillary Clinton. He says, Vladimir Putin and I went through this whole Russia hoax. He went through it. He was accused of all that stuff. He had nothing to do with it. It came out of Hunter Biden's. bathroom. It came out of Hunter Biden's bedroom. It was disgusting. What an amazing thing to say, right? The person he clearly feels a bond with is Putin, not...
with Volodymyr Zelensky, who runs a democratic country that has been allied with the United States and is under fire. The problem is I've empowered you to be a tough guy. Finally, Trump lays down his cards and he says, but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. And if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. Basically.
Either you're with us, either you go along with what I'm going to do, or we're out. We'll abandon you. We'll abandon you. It's a very stark threat. All right. I think we've seen enough. What do you think? This is going to be great television. I will say that. And then the reporters are escorted out of the room.
Peter, once the shock wore off, for me at least, and as I told you, I'm watching this as well, I had this sense, and I wonder if you did as well, that people in the two delegations, the Zelensky camp and the Trump camp... They're going to find a way to try to smooth this over after the cameras leave the room because, of course, they are there to sign a deal.
Exactly. This deal is supposed to be signed. They're supposed to use this deal to put the relationship on a new foundation going forward. And now... With the cameras out of the room, are they going to make apologies or at least smooth it over? And will they still have the lunch? Will they still sign the deal that was the whole point of him coming in the first place? Will they have the news conference? It's been set up in the East Room waiting for us any minute now.
We don't know. But then suddenly we get the answer. Zelensky's car has just pulled up to the door of the West Wing, and he's leaving. We'll be right back. I'm Jonathan Swan. I'm a reporter at the New York Times. You know, when people think about the media, your favorite podcast, you know, cable news panels and different things, I think it's fair to say that myself and my reporting colleagues at the New York Times exist at the more unglamorous end of that spectrum. Our job is to dig out the...
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Peter, pick the story up where you just left it off. What ends up happening behind the scenes, based on your reporting, that ultimately ends with this day becoming totally unsalvageable? But what we end up learning later is the two teams, the U.S. team and the Ukrainian team, head into separate rooms in the West Wing to collect themselves after this bruising battle in the Oval Office.
Zelensky still wants to salvage this thing. He still wants to sign the deal. He still wants to see if he can't smooth it over. But... The U.S. side, Trump and his team, are meeting in another part of the White House, and they are furious. And the answer to them is no. It's over. Tell him to leave. Wow. And two U.S. officials then go to the room where Zelensky and his team are and explain to him, you're out of here. Basically, they're kicking Zelensky out of the White House.
Exactly right. And so the reporters were all rushing out to the driveway, and there's this black Chevy SUV, the Suburban, at the door of the West Wing, and out comes Vladimir Zelensky, looking very grim-faced as he climbs. And then the suburban pulls out of the White House driveway and off the White House grounds, and you realize just how much has changed in those few minutes. Wow. So lunch is off. The press conference is off.
Trump's A's are busy eating the lunch that had actually been prepared for Zelensky, this roasted chicken and creme brulee. And Trump issues a statement on his social media platform. And it says, I have determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace if America is involved. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for peace. Peter, the reactions to this.
encounter are all over the place, as you might expect. You've got Republicans. Some of them now saying it's time for Zelensky to resign. And they are repeating the charge from Trump and Vance that Zelensky wasn't sufficiently respectful and that Ukraine should send the United States a leader.
who can show the president of the United States more respect. Then you've got congressional Democrats who are aghast that the president would berate the leader of a country that is an American ally and furious that we seem to be giving a boost. to Russia by humiliating the leader of Ukraine. And so I'm curious what you're making of those two drastically different responses to this same encounter.
Yeah, I was there on the White House driveway when Senator Lindsey Graham came out. What I think, complete, utter disaster. Essentially sent out by the White House to say not only that it was Zelensky's fault... I talked to Zelensky this morning. Don't take the bait. President Trump was in a very good mood last night. Somebody asked me, am I embarrassed about Trump? I have never been more proud of the president.
and that he's proud of Trump for standing up for America, but that if Zelensky wouldn't change it, he should even resign. What I saw in the Oval Office was disrespectful, and I don't know if we can ever do business with Zelensky again. Hmm. And what a remarkable 180 degrees for the Graham wing of the Republican Party, what used to be the Reagan wing of the Republican Party. Graham was one of the most hawkish, pro-Ukraine, anti-Russia voices on the scene.
And now he has fallen in line behind Trump. But the Democrats, the only person who had been disrespected in that meeting was Zelensky. So all Zelensky asked yesterday was, how do you know that diplomacy will work? And because he had the audacity to ask that simple question, he was ushered out of the White House. And apparently the United States is going to do Putin's bidding.
And the Democrats are the ones who are left to defend Ukraine and call for a more skeptical view of Russia and to cast Russia as the enemy. Zelensky is leading a country. trying to defend democracy against an authoritarian dictator, Putin, who invaded his country. And our job is to defend the 250 year tradition that we have. of being the democratic leader of the world, not turn our backs on a struggling country that is trying to do the right thing. Right, so that's the domestic.
political response, Peter. But the responses that most intrigued me were from people who said, basically, wasn't this a moment of unvarnished truth-telling? from President Trump. Ukraine does not have a good hand. It is deeply reliant on American military aid. It's struggling to recruit soldiers. It cannot win a war of attrition against Russia.
And it's not really a priority for the Trump administration. So in a way, Trump was being very clear and very direct about all of that in this confrontation. Yeah, I mean, look, it is certainly the case that a lot of people believe the United States needs to focus its priorities either at home. or perhaps against China, because that's the bigger threat, and therefore we have to recalibrate our relationship with Europe, our commitments in Europe, our hostility toward Russia.
And the strategic thought that you hear from some people behind what happened on Friday is, it's time for us to cut bait. and be friendlier with Russia because we need them against China. I don't know how much that's part of Trump's own thinking, but certainly some people around him give voice to that analysis. Even so, of course, to see...
The very personal and visceral way that Trump was willing to cut loose an ally in furtherance of this strategy was pretty striking. Even if that's what you wanted to do, doing it in this way, I think, was pretty shocking for a lot of people.
Right. Which is a slightly different question and one that is important, which is, was this done poorly, impolitely, shockingly so to some? But I think it feels like Trump's... goal here is to focus, like you just said, on Russia and China, and that in the end, Ukraine stands in the way of that. Trump wants to be sitting down across from Putin or Xi Jinping. He does not want to have to be worrying about a war in Ukraine.
No question that Trump respects strength and power. And he sees the world as a place where big men and big powers like the United States and Putin's Russia divide up their spheres of influence very much like a 19th century or, you know, mid...
20th century view of things, while the democracies will simply have to eat it if they have to. In other words, what matters more is who is powerful, not who has the same kind of governmental system. And that leaves the question then, does Ukraine... become in effect. on the way to this, you know, real politic goal and what happens to the U.S. relationship with other democracies in Asia and Europe? And do we embolden authoritarian governments like Putin by rewarding them for...
their aggression. Well, a related question to this, Peter, is, is Europe going to pick up the slack if the U.S., if Trump is going to walk away from this to focus on... Russia and China, and to use your words, potentially leave Ukraine as roadkill in the pursuit of that goal, is Europe going to step in? And it was striking how much in the hours after Zelensky was kicked out of the White House, European leaders lionized him and posed the question of what their role needed to be.
if the U.S. walks away. I mean, the prime minister of France wrote, by refusing to bend in Washington, Volodymyr Zelensky was the honor of Europe. But then he goes on to write, Now it is upon us Europeans to decide what we want to be and whether we want to be. And I took that to mean her saying, Europe, are we going to step up? and solve the problems for Ukraine that the U.S. has until now but seems to be walking away from.
Yeah, absolutely. So as soon as Zelensky leaves Washington, he heads to London, where he meets with European leaders, including Keir Starmer, the British prime minister. And this was already planned before the blow up in the Oval Office. But it's such a remarkable. that timing, because he is greeted.
with open arms, right? The Europeans have rallied to his side in this. One after the other, across the continent, they said, we stand with Ukraine, we stand with Zelensky. They say the things that you just quoted, the French prime minister is saying. And Starmer promises more funding, a couple more billion dollars worth of weapons for advanced air defense missiles and talks about a peacekeeping force that the Europeans can put together even without the Americans.
There is a peace deal, if there's a peace deal, to try to enforce it. But it's a test. It's a real test because... Time and time again, Europeans have said, yeah, we're going to step up and take more of the burden from the United States without actually following through. And they have risen to the occasion with Ukraine over these last three years. They've actually donated more money.
for Ukraine's defense than the United States has. You may have heard Trump say the opposite. He's wrong about that. But... It's still a question whether they can do everything that Ukraine would need and would lose without American support. And for Europe, it really is a moment of truth. Right. And it seems worth noting that UK's prime minister, even as he announced more money for Ukraine, said, we've got to be honest, we still need a backstop from the US. There's nothing...
approaching a true guarantee of Ukraine safety unless the U.S. is involved. That's right. I mean, you know, they don't expect U.S. to put... troops on the ground, what they would like would be air support or logistical support or intel support and mainly just...
political and geopolitical support. The idea that the United States is behind them on this and that Russia ought not to try anything because it would not just be aggravating Europe, but aggravating the United States and taking a real chance there. And it's not clear that Trump wants to do that. He said, I don't really care too much.
about what the security situation is after I make peace. He trusts Vladimir Putin to keep the deal. Doesn't believe that there really needs to be any security guarantee because he thinks Putin can be trusted. Well... Nobody in Ukraine thinks that, and very few people in Europe think that. Right. Peter, my final question for you is about Zelensky. And...
what, based on your reporting, you think he is going to do now. He's been issued this offer via President Trump to return to the White House, but only as a man of peace. And from everything you're saying here... What that really means is that the president wants him to return as a person willing to capitulate and recognize that the U.S. doesn't really care as much as it once did about protecting Ukraine and that he has to live and die by...
Trump's hope that Putin would keep a deal that Trump makes. And that means giving up a lot. And so I'm curious, do you think Zelensky will return to the White House on the terms that Trump wants? Or does he not return? And does he instead focus on Europe as a replacement and savior for Ukraine, as potentially insufficient as that might be? Yeah, I think it's really one of the essential questions out of all this. Look, in the immediate aftermath...
of this meltdown in the Oval Office. He tried to smooth it over first with social media posts and later with an interview on Fox News and other comments saying, you know, look, thank you, America. Thank you to the president. And it was him, I think, trying to.
smooth it over in his own way. But he is a man of pride, too. He's a man struggling to save his country from an aggressor. And there's only so far he was willing to go. He said on Fox News, he didn't think he had anything to apologize for. He regretted it. He was sorry it happened. but he didn't think he had done anything wrong. And you're right. Trump, if they put this back together, and it's possible that they do, Trump will want him to come back in a supplicant form. And Vladimir Zelensky...
is a lot of things, but he doesn't really have the flattery gene that some of these other foreign leaders use to suck up to Trump. It's just not his nature. And we'll see whether or not... He can do that, whether he should do that, whether that would be enough, even if he did. This is the new order right now. And the new order is, you know, if you are not deferential to Trump, he will punish you.
So for Zelensky, the choice here basically is how far is he willing to defer? How far is he willing to flatter? How far is he willing to subordinate himself on some level to Trump? And if he did do that, would it even work? Would it even get him what he really thinks he needs? Well Peter, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Great to talk with you.
On Sunday night, a spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the Trump administration's new policies towards countries like Ukraine, encapsulated by the Oval Office confrontation between Trump and Zelensky, had brought the United States much closer to Russia's own approach. The spokesman said, This, he added, largely aligns with our vision. We'll be right back.
Here's what else you need to know today. On Sunday, Israel disrupted its existing and agreed upon framework for ending its war with Hamas. by saying it would immediately end the flow of all goods and humanitarian assistance into Gaza. The decision is an attempt by Israel. to temporarily extend its ceasefire deal with Hamas without advancing to the next more delicate stage of negotiations. That stage would have required Israel to withdraw troops from Gaza.
and to commit to a permanent ceasefire in return for the release of the remaining Israeli hostages inside Gaza. Hamas immediately denounced Israel's decision. But it was clear that the Trump administration supports Israel's new plan. And over the weekend, U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio invoked emergency powers to bypass Congress and send $4 billion in weapons to Israel. Today's episode was produced by Will Reed and Muj Zady.
It was edited by Liz O. Balin, contains original music by Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.