What We Got Wrong About Mass Protests 12.12.23

I'm going to try it out intrigue Miles when I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co host, mister Miles Grass.

about supporting Hamas. And then when I went there, you know, even though I should have known better, I even kind of expected to see some elements maybe there are out there, but what I found was like quite a lot of families and kids, and.

took power yesterday. He wanted to see what he had done, how sort of controversial he tried to be at the ceremony and what people picked up on from that, from that takeover.

He tried to do you know, I think he's trying to figure out wha to actually govern the country, whereas his campaign was really about I'm going to destroy the state entirely. We're going to get rid of the pace, so we're going to bring in the dollar. I've cloned all of my dogs and they, you know, they speak to me. He tried. I think he tried to turn it down a little bit. He did say that it's not yeah, I just a dog.

and markets didn't just grow out of nowhere. Things. Things turned out to be quite difficult for quite a lot of people afterwards. So you know, that thinking it's you know, it's it's a feeling, the idea that all you have to do is smash everything up in some magical force will will provide the solution. But it just doesn't tend to work out that.

picking up steam. How do you think about that? I know that's a kind of a big question, and we'll get into more specific permutations of it.

Like Arnold Schwarzeninger was one of these, you know, he's one of them, you know, way ahead of the curve on this one, and it was a ha ha haa, we're voting Arnold Schwarsinger.

to be. What happens in each case is that, oh yeah, it was really appealing this idea that being from outside the system, which is usually like half a lie, right, Like you're usually like you're encouraged not to pretend that you're really an outsider, even if you're not right. And then oh yeah, that's that's not actually how you govern.

And then you replace that the anti political candidate, the anti political politician, with like the most establishment person you know, after Trump, you get you get Joe Biden, who's like the guy that Obama grabbed in two thousand and eight to put on his campaign to prove that he was kind of a regular Democrat, that he wasn't too wild, right, Yeah, yeah, But then again, but I think all of this anti political sentiment is like the wrong answer to a real question,

which is why is it that everyone feels that governments don't represent them properly? Why is it that everyone wants to say fuck you to the system whenever they can? And that question I think still remains unanswered. So like the under the underlying crisis is still unresolved. But I think one by one, states or nations are realizing, Oh well this this response doesn't work right.

partially where it comes from. Or are you just like think they suck?

Social media is a new technology. Social media is technology. Like, the more I considered what was going on in the last twenty years, I started to like think about photography as technology and like I'm pretty in the book. Yeah, yeah, like I do it really quickly. But like in the history of humanity, it's pretty new that we're able to see stuff that's not happening like directly from Yeah, we're

like photography. Definitionally, everything that you're seeing in a photograph or a moving picture isn't happening anymore, right, is it is a technological trick to reproduce the light patterns that makes the human brain think that they're seeing a thing that did happen in the past but is no longer happening, and like, obviously that's not going away. We're gonna have to learn we're learning to do with that as as humanity. But I don't know, for whatever reason, I've just been

thinking about it a lot. Yeah, it's kind of strange. I mean it's kind of strange. We come home after being outside and then we watch a screen of people pretending to live lives.

at something really horrible happening. And like imagine because like the human body, when it sees like violence, it kind of gets keyed up to maybe either run away or participate. Like imagine, now, you know, in ten to twenty years, we're able to see scenes of violence that aren't happening at all, Yet the human body still responds as if

it's a yeah, it's material reality. Anyways. I don't know, I don't know what any of that means or what we're supposed to do about it, but I spend a lot of time thinking about how new all it all kind of is.

because it allowed me to yeah, that's my Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure if in if the dish is named after or like I think maybe the old Roman name is named after like the necture of the gods, and then that's also what the etymological story behind the salad is that right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

not fair somehow. There's like injustice done there. I think that Amazon we need to think of either the Island of Warriors back in antiquity or like the Amazon forest, not like how do you order something.

And you know, you open your book, which is about like one of these things where for a decade there were these movements that seemed to resemble each other in some ways, kind of often superficial, but spreading around the globe.

You also open your book talking about the spirit of nineteen sixty eight, the idea where like revolution is happening across the globe all at once, almost like there's something in the air, right, And this is you know, sixty years before social media, and you know, these protests and uprising sweep around the world and even in communist countries.

So I'd just be interested in first just for framing of the entire conversation, like hearing you speak about what are the dynamics that are at play there, Like how do you think something like that happens.

And I think media has to be part of this story, right because before media would be impossible for people to find in Germany, to find out what's happening in France, and you know, unless somebody came and told them that's the story. So even like in eighteen forty eight, like you know, the Spring of Nations in Europe, you saw like common commonalities across countries, and I think you see in a acceleration of that process the more media tied

we become. So nineteen sixty eight, you have quite a lot of back and forth happening between Western Europe and the United States, especially California, but also like they're doing different things. Like if you just if you just like look at the pictures of it, it may look the same, but there's different things happening, and certainly the people in Prague, or in China or in Egypt, which in my book I kind of say that they all do kind of

have their own type of nineteen sixty eight. They're all very different types of movements and protesting, very different types of governments. But like this seems to be a thing at least in the histories, in the history of revolution, most serious thinkers do think that there is some kind of like a zeitgeist of rebellion in the air, that there are waves of rebellions, there are clusters of uprisings. I think media has to be part of that story

about like again, we have to. That's something we as an explanation, we pose on retroactively to make sense of what's happened after it all explodes.

I'm just just interested. It's not really the central thesis of your book, but just as somebody who spent a lot of time thinking about that, I was curious to hear your thoughts on that.

moves forward right in some grand and mystical way. And so whether or not that's true or not, I think we can you know, probably most people are not the Galiens, but some people, but you know, I think a lot of people do kind of have this deep, deep down feeling or assumption that there is kind of like a history with a capital H that moves forward and this Yeah, this this ends up actually coming up in the book, for better or worse.

of topple hierarchies for a set period of time. In the book Dawn of Everything, David Graeber talks about, like, you know, doing archaeological studies of these tribal Native American civilizations that have like that that was actually built into the structure of how they operated, where there would be these holidays where people would change and you know, the chiefs or the police, the people who acted as the police would become clowns, and you know, just all of

these like switching of the roles the people had, so and it was it was kind of built in that if somebody had a really great hunting season, they would then be kind of ritualistically humiliated in front of everybody so that they were not attached to their kind of hierarchical role. But yeah, I don't know, it's just interesting, like giving people an environment where they can forget their capitalist lives and dissolve into a collective seems to more

and more like connect with people. And I feel like it is kind of an important part of the equation and part of what makes me hopeful about you know, the fact that there could be some people driven change, right is how much there is just that that urge there. But obviously you know, this is something you think about and put in the book, So just curious to hear

your thoughts. Is that part of the thing that makes you come away from this and still be helpful even though the aims of the protesters often get swarded repeatedly in these stories.

tried to build a better world. They had, you thought about new strategies, they had thought about doing things differently. They maybe had to leave their home country or gone to jail, but they had not given up. And a lot of people have said, even if they knew, even after they knew, how things ultimately turned out even if they now know that the story ended in disaster, they would say things like I could relive that day every

day for the rest of my life. It's the most alive that I've ever felt, and that feeling is something that I will never stop reliving. And I think that that feeling is related to not only what you said about this historical practice of inverting hierarchies and sort of creating more direct links between people that you see in all kinds of any civilization, of any complexity. I think you see these things, kinds of things popping up, the medieval carnival, the case you just online have. I've read

a lot of Graver books. Graver's books been not that one. But I think it's also related to that other phenomenon we spoke about earlier, like the feeling right now, which I think drives the elections of people like Schwartzenegger and Trump and Bosono in me Lea that were not actually in control of what's happening. The structures that you're supposed

to represent us are not actually representing us. There are a few moments in your daily life when you really feel that you're making history, that you're part of something like is guys that you're actually work connecting with other people and actually imposing your will in the most positive sense, like trying to reshape reality in a way that actually

matters at all. And so when those feelings come around for people in this day and age, at this level of like social complexity and in a world of interconnected political systems which I think it is right to believe don't really represent us that well anymore, it feels so incredibly powerful. It feels like this is something that I've been starving for because the like right now, what I'm

actually doing feels like it's really changing things. And that is a feeling that I think that even if we didn't have to improve the global system, which I think we do, it would It's it's like there's a deep there's a deep yearning for that in humanity to connect with other people and build something, connect with other people and do something really like to make a difference, and there's not we don't feel that way very often. Often where you know a movie, there's.

you know.

about this thing. You know in your book, you know, for people who aren't fully aware, you're examining a lot of these mass movements that you know, most of the time didn't actually end up bringing about the change that the people were seeking, and in fact, movements get co opted and you know, can turn into, as you say, like almost bringing the opposite effect of what they wanted initially, Right, Is there something Do you think there is something woven

in that like that the Like, obviously there are very politically minded activists and people who are organizing and understand like maybe mechanically what has to happen, But because so many are just sort of taken up by this larger feeling that we kind of get stuck in the of doing the explosive like this is our feedback to the leaders of the world kind of thing, and then forgetting what happens after that.

governments or fundamentally destabilized governments. So these are movements that at first unexpectedly appear to be incredibly successful, Like so enough people came on the streets that actually the president or the dictator is like fleeing the country or is so scared and so desperate to stay in power that they want to that they'll give something up to the people in the streets in order to stay in power. Now, what happens next ends up being the focus of my book.

Is what I try to do is I go back and say, well, what actually happened in the years that followed, after a lot of the foreign journalists have stopped, you know, producing the very inspiring images on screens around the planet, What really happened? And to answer that question as to

what actually happened? I think is related to your question someone indirectly, but related is that the way that we are living starved of this feeling, starved of this actual connection with other you know, we are like digitally quote unquote connected because we're you know, we're we're sending you know, messages on screens, but we're we're living more individualized lives than I think most of humanity ever has. We are

often responding to like posts. This this way that we have been living for several decades shaped the type of the types of responses which were easiest to put together to real injustice. They've shaped the types of things that we did first when confronted with real abuses of power.

And I think that is yes, part of the story, and a lot of a lot of the people had this at the end, like you know, we at the end of the book, you know, after I've interviewed everyone asked them to look back in what happened, and a lot of them said, yes, it was not only this system that we thought that it had had been oppressing us, but that shaped the way that we understood political change.

It shaped the way that we could put together responses to injustice, and that ended up meaning that we couldn't get through that first of apparent victory to the next step, which was actually creating something better. So yeah, I do. I do think it's all related. I think that we we and then you know, that's part of the learning process, right, That's part of the what happened in the twenty tens is a lot of people got much further than they

expected and then realized where the barriers were. But I think that the fact that we have been living this way for so long is part of the reason that explains why it was the mass protest that came together very very quickly. That was the way that often was the automatic response, Like why the twenty tens the dominant mode of the twenty tens rather than other of these you know, years of Uprising was mass protest or the

mass why it was a mass protest? Decide if you want to use the sub top of my book.

organized or organized to resist leadership. And is that kind of the big takeaway that you just you think that future protests protest movements need to kind of take away from this book, Is that some manner of organization, some manner of like, you know, if you aren't prepared after you create the change to step in to lead, somebody

is going to lead for you. Is that would that be kind of the big you know, because there is the example of this actually working, right, and the big thing there was that the leftists who created the change then involve themselves in national politics, right, So like would you say that is the big takeaway that they just need to be ready to organize and then lead.

what they asked for? You've outlined I think, yeah, A major part of the answer, which is that what happened unexpectedly is that more people came out into the streets than than was planned for. They joined a very specific type of response to injustice, a very specific type of mass protests, which is you know, which has various elements. It is apparently spontaneous, leaderless, digitally coordinated. Often you know, people are finding out about this because of social media

or media in general. And then horizontally structured, which means that there's not hierarchy, and there's often an idea that there shouldn't be. And then these are protests in public squares or in or in public spaces, and when more people come than expect are than are expected, then yeah, the government is perhaps dislodged or the government is so weakened the power is up for grabs, and often what happened in you know that this is where you know,

cases really diverge. But often what happened is whoever was already there organized waiting in the wings, steps in and takes power. The person that was like waiting, you know, off off off camera, off stage, takes over, or you know, sometimes that is the local national elites. They're not always

on the right. Sometimes they are on the right, or especially in the cases of countries that are weaker than the US, you often had some neighbor or the US itself coming in to fill that vacuum and crush the movement. And then when that kind of counter attack comes, just like it did in seventeen eighty nine or in the revolutions in previous eras of global revolution, there's usually a

counter attack of counter revolution. That protest that hadn't planned on going to war with anybody, that had not planned on even actually overthrowing a government is really was really not ready for it was really not ready to defend this project, which really concretely consisted of millions of different

people with different ideas as to what it was. Because they came together so quickly, and you know that part of it I think is a strength in the beginning is you can get so many people together very quick

because every sort of everyone's invited. But once you get past that first moment, often there was a brief moment when there was an opportunity, and usually the people that took the opportunity were already organized, already ready, and already waiting in the wings to seize power, where whereas the stream movements couldn't decide if they believed in taking power, or who was supposed to do it, or if what they would do with it if they would and while

that sort of non conversation was not happening, like the military sweeps in or a right wing populi sweeps in, or NATO bombs your country and so on.

a lot of mass protests. I mean, like in twenty twenty felt like a huge moment with Black Lives Matter and people beginning to sort of be able to articulate, like sort of what is wrong with our system of policing only to just get like Nancy Pelosi kneeling in the kintach cloth at the Capitol, right, and then like.

and we're able to extract tangible concessions. But I feel like that a lot of that is because these groups are organized around proper power and in a specific industry, and their tool is to withhold their labor, which then affects revenue, which then affects the leadership, and then that's how they bring them to the table when you know, how do we take sort of like you know, what's from your perspective, what are the learnings?

How do we take that going merely past the point of these sort of huge gestures, you know, these expressions of anger and translate that into outcomes, because a lot of the times, like you're saying, these movements, they're not there, are horizontally organized, or they get so big, like people like at the picket for police brutality.

have been more organized before the explosion came. I would wish we would have organized when it seemed like nothing was happening, like the lesson, the lesson off being essentially built in the off season because you don't know what's going to come, and when something, an opportunity does does arise, you want to already happy word you know, connected with other people that believe in the same things as you. And this is kind of the story of the UAW right.

Like in twenty seventeen, you do have people that are from the kind of the world of progressive politics realizing, oh, we kids try to reform. There's the UAW reform conkis. This is a process that starts in twenty seventeen when it seems like, you know, there's no opportunities for organized labor right now, you know, Donald Trump's just won the presidency. What you know, you know, But but it ends up paying off much much later. And it pays off because

as you say, you withdraw, you withhold your labor. And not only do you withhold your labor, because this is a this is the really hard move that is almost impossible for the horizontally structured mass protest to pull off, is that you withhold your labor asking for a raise. You may ask for all kinds of things that you think you're not going to get, you ask.

confounded everyone that was living through it. Like as it was happening, the politicians and the original organizers for example of this unexpected mass explosion in Brazil in twenty thirteen, didn't know how to deal with this phenomenon because the president wanted to give the streets something but could not figure out what it was that would that could be given and then that the streets could say, oh yes,

that's great, We'll take that for now, you know. And again in these moments, you may ask for really really radical reforms. You may you know, bring up the possibility of entirely changing or getting rid of the current policing orcarceral system. That is a thing that can be part of this larger process. But when there's no when there was no ability for the people in power to understand that they would somehow get out of this like because

they're often, like I said, they're scared. So if you're not willing to actually overthrow the government and form a new one, but you can scare the government, then what you want is to use that moment where they're kind of on their back on their heels to get something. But they're only going to get it if they think that, okay, well that that means that I can stand again that if I do give this thing, I will be it will be demonstrated that you know, mass protest extracts goods

from me. It will be, it will be proven. You know. On the other side of this equation there might be all this more this radical energy that's that's born. But at least I can hold on for now, And and a lot of times in the twenty tents, the government couldn't even figure out what to give in order to full order, so then they just they end up opted opting for And this depended on context repression just like crack like just cracking down or just waiting it out,

which turns out kind of works. And and that that that that that that dynamic that you brought up too, like because I you know, in twenty twenty, I mean I didn't write I know very little about the George floetuprising.

I spent a lot of time learning about the rest of these in the book, but I did get like I did watch of course, and this was something that I started to talk about with my friends that were in, you know, involved on the streets, that if the government just kind of does nothing, the longer things go on, the more likely it is that that guy with the sign that says batteries give you cancer, we'll get on television.

Right even if and again, to go back to the very beginning of our conversation, even if like that's an fbhiaja, you know, if like it makes sense for the government to just send three people out there to do the dumbest thing that you could imagine point a camera at them and be like, this is what you are?

fifties and sixties. They absolutely would have had an ability to say that guy, we don't know that guy, right, but that but that was lost in the you know, it's a it's a mixed bag. There's positive negatives to the to the dynamic which allows people like a lot of people to come to the streets at the same time, whereas often it took like two years to put together the mass demonstrations that were common in the fifties and sixties because they had to like slowly, slowly, one by

one recruit people and vet them. Whereas now we can everyone can show up, but then there's no one to say yeah, really anything full on behalf of the.

like fuck fuck the police. Like a lot of the times, like the police really end up being you know, you talk to somebody who is in Ukraine and is like the you know, these Miton protests are kind of seem weird and like neoliberal to me, and so I'm not

into it. But then the second the police show up and start being the shit out of people, it becomes like a national movement, right, So I don't know, like that that just seems like it kept coming up, like why wait, why are we putting up this a universal truth that like we all agree on, like around the globe is like a cap like, fuck this institution, please the.

things and understand how things are interrelated. And I think that if there was any value to doing that is to see what things pop up as similar in the different And one thing that surprised me is how common this was the dynamic unist outlined where the first demand no one cares that much about. There's a small thing at the very beginning, or there's you know, there's some issue or some interaction between one one individual and one

police officer. But then the image of the police doing what they are literally trained to do, which is to repress populations and moment of moments of a parent illegality shocks the country so much that that's what really sets off the explosion, that that's really what gets millions and millions of people in the streets. And then at that point there's sort of this discussion as to what it is.

But I think there's two things there. One of them is that dynamic we spoke about the very beginning, like photography, like the ability to instantly see because before you know the camera, but certainly before twin on Instagram, the average person is never going to see the things that cops actually do unless you live in you know, unless it actually happens to you or you're walking in front of somebody. It's not the case that every single person in the

country can see what this actually looks like. But in the twenty tens, everyone can see what it looks like. The most shocking thing that people have been saying about what cops do is recorded, and everyone sees it at

the same time. And often, as I said, if we can have like sort of a visceral reaction and then you know, and so there's the possibility of seeing that and the reality of what it is that in the final instance, often reproduces the very unequal societies we live in, which is violence, right, and like as I say at the end of the book, in almost any country on earth, if you want to or if you do the wrong thing, a cop will beat the shit out of you. That is like the nature of the system that we live

in globally. So then even though the various demands from Brazil to Ukraine are entirely different, that the spark is very similar across countries. And then what to do with this huge energy which is initially often directed at the police.

That is something that is hard to translate into something else afterwards, even in the case where for example, like in Egypt, they like they like they went to battle with the cops and the cops lost, Like the cops were like ripping off their uniforms and running away, like there was no more cops. The people would or at least the people that were in the uprising on January twenty eighth, twenty eleven, like beat the police and there was no one left in charge. But they hadn't planned

for that. They didn't know what to do, and sort.

and willing to take risks, to take action. And then even when it was apparently incredibly successful, that that that that energy, somehow or another could not be translated into the construction of something different, even in the most even in the most surprising cases.

what they were asking for too? Then like the leftists who organized the first protests and leftists and anarchists like being pushed out like off of the streets by these like right wing And that's that's something that like, you know, when you look at the definition of fascism, it's like take the ideas, the talking points, and the methods of

leftist organization organizing and use them towards your own. And but like the speed with which you see it happen in real time, like I kept thinking about like the book felt like it was like partially about fluid dynamics, like just like how quickly things were, like people would flood into this place and then like this other thing would come, and but just wild that the speed and real time energy with which that happens in that instance.

the streets is only seven days. But in my memory, so much happens, and I could remember like every morning, like every hour, something's different is happening in like Facebook groups, because like the original group is organizing on face, like is putting out like press releases on Facebook. Like it seems like nothing, like, oh, it's just a week. So

much happened in that week. And as you say, yes, people that we would now very easily recognize as the beginnings of a far right movement in Brazil, they came out wearing the yellow and green soccer jersey. Only a

few days later, a few days after the police cracked down. Actually, you know, beat the original organizers rip their like they don't like rip their they don't rip their uniforms off, but they rip their flags down, and they rip and they rip away their their left wing banners and they throw them into the streets and then they just go home.

And that was something that like nobody, like nobody considered possible just four days previously, certainly not the original organizers, not the government, not I think the beginnings of the far right themselves, And it was just an immediate turnaround that Brazil has been sort of reeling from for the last ten years. And like, I'm not the only person to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how that, how that happened.

of these movements. Like as I got more and more interested in European football, I realized how many of these groups have very like specific political views and it's not just like we fuck with this team, it's like, no, we're also anti fascist and like or we're neo Nazis, Like you don't know what the fuck you're gonna get yep, can you like just like, can I explain because I

think that's a very specific thing. But like because in America we have sports fans, but not even it's not the level of what hooligans are ultras you know, because many of these can be gangs in certain instances, But like what is that.

is like shockingly offensive to them. Like if the fans, if the fans of the Brazilian version of the Raiders, which is there is one, found out that they like their team was moving cities, like, there would be big problems, like you that is like that is like that like I just I often just like tell Brazilians this and they get so mad that you can't them anger because these teams are really really embedded in communities, right, Like

you're born a fan of a certain team. That means something and as comes to matter quite a lot in the mass protests that I cover, which political ideology a given set of football ultras or hooligans has really matters? Now, again this is unexpected, but if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. Oh well, if you are, without meaning to perhaps calling for extended street battles with the police, who's going to be the best at that?

Istanbul come with anarchist or communist football banners. In Ukraine, it for again, for you know, the central Ukraine is not the only part of this region of Europe where you would have far far right of football ultruists, but it ends up mattering quite a lot to the outcome of Year of My Dawn that the football ultras that are in the region are on the fall right. They end up playing a really big role in the outcome

in Ukraine. And then in Brazil you get a different type of football fan, which is the more the fan of the national team, which is a very specific type of Brazilian because like, right, I mean, I don't want to go too deep into this, but like regular Brazilians don't care that much about the national team unless they're winning. Interesting, they're like really really loyal to Corinthians. Corinthians is the raiders of Brazil. I'm gonna explain why that matters. They're

really really loyal to the Corinthians, for example. But like the it tends to be like an upper middle class, wider Brazilian that is in the stadiums at the World Cup because it's quite, it's very expensive to go so and then so then this group of people that like you know, throw anarchists and leftists out of the streets

ends up mattering. But then jumping forward to twenty twenty two, the election last year in which Jirabolscenaro, the far right president who takes over in twenty eighteen, is trying everything he can to organize a coup. He tried to, he tried behind the scenes, he tried, he you know, he tried in ways that Trump said, but he was much better at he knew he's he's from the era of the military dictatorship. He was trying in more sort of

let's say, informed ways. And right after the election, pro Bolsonaro Brazilians block the highways of the country trying to make a coup happen. So I'm stuck in South paul I'm supposed to go to Rio. You can't go. The highways are blocked by the far right. The Corinthians fans in South Paulo, which is again the Raiders of Brazil.

They're like the biggest, most raucous fan group. They're black and white, like a lot of their like ultras have like ties to prisons, they for whatever historical reasons, are pro democracy, pro Lula and center left. They clear the roads, they go out and get to get the fuck out of the way. Yet get the bist does off the road. One because that they believe in democracy and they support Lulin. Two because they have to get to a game that is that is happening up that highway.

there is there a world historical time? They thought that that would necessarily push history forward. But one thing they realized when that didn't happen is like oh well, we picked a part of town where our allies don't really live. We picked a street battle in the center of the economic capital, whereas we care about more more about the working class people in the periphery. But we didn't think about like an extended battle. We just kind of thought, you,

you know, you light the fight. What is it like, like Bean, it's kind of Bane logic, what is the thing like? What does the Bain say in the beginning of the Batman movie where he's like he throws the guy of the planes, like, well, you've lit the fire now, like everything's taking care. There is kind of this you know this scene I'm talking about her mind.

to represent progress. Ends up making football e shows matter quite a lot across this decade in ways that like, you know, as strange as it sounds, without in any way trying to downplay the role that of course Vladimir Putin played in the aftermass of the crisis and criminally invading the country. Yeah, still to this day you're kind of seeing things be different than they were if it were not for the involvement of those those ultras in Ukraine and twenty thirteen.

us like actually live most of the time. But hopefully, you know, hope, you know, but again, future last a long time, and hopefully that is not it's not always going to be like that. I really, I really hope not. If I didn't believe that it then it didn't have to be like that, I wouldn't be doing this kind of work. So hopefully that I can start to enjoy something again.

of on a moving picture. And it's between brother and sister in a like mainstream coffee commercial that seems like it was shot to like appear on the Today Show, and they're just like within seconds of fucking each other on the kitchen accounter when their parents walk in. Anyways, you can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. O'Brien, you can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist. We're

at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, daily zeitgeist dot com, where we post our episode and our footnotes no where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode, as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Mild Is there a song that you think people might enjoy?