Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three thirty five, episode two of Days Day Air production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep gut in New America share con and it's also an ASMR podcast.
Officially. Okay, all right, ying Yang in this Tuesday, April twenty third, twenty twenty four. Hey, a lot of things going on to school bus driver Appreciation Day. Yes, thank you for being sober or at least my eyes sober as you drove for example, functionally sober. Yeah, you know, giving me something to aspire to. National Lost Dog Awareness Day. All that's said, National Cherry Cheesecake Day, National Take a Chance Day, National Picnic Day, and national talk like Shakespeare
my Lord Day. That's all I could do. I don't I can't speak an Iambic pantameter.
But I can't say my Lord like the vegas of accents, talk like Shakespeare will He was doing a hand curl the front of his hat. So we're just on the end of No.
Yeah, it is.
Shake Spirit Day, Spirit Days Miles. Speaking of days, I would be remiss not to mention that we skipped right over because it was a weekend. We didn't record because we're lazy that we skipped over four twenty.
Yeah, Bro, I know, Bro, Yeah, it's talk about it's about June ninth, Bro, sixty nine. You know we're we've moved over from four.
Twenty, so we moved on from four to twenty.
Fuck it?
Yeah all right, I mean.
Honestly, and I've said this on the show more and more like it's it's diminishing returns after you hit the heights of eighteen years old on four twenty, Like yeah, yeah, it'll never matter as much as it does when it's.
It's like what New Year's is to alcoholics, that is, to people.
Who smoke weed. Yeah, it's like it doesn't matter. I'm drinking it every day. Any Yeah, well okay, yeah, amateur Hour. I am a functioning alcoholic. I drink where I get to work, to school. Yes, my name's Jack O'Brien. AKA.
I saw the news today. Oh boy, I had it printed from the internet. Can't bring my phone into a trial. Go get me a big mac and then I'll take a nap. We're alternately, go get me a big mac and now we know how many diet coach it takes the heart to stop that AKA. Courtesy of Shawny Pawne on the discord the alternate version the four thousand Holes in Blackburn, Lancashire verse from Steaming Chuck on the discord on a bit of a roll, Steaming Chuck on a bit of a roll. We shouts out to you both
and for z Gang in general. Someone was telling me how like British soccer anthems, like British soccer crowds like get together and do like loose, weird allification of songs to like represent their players. Oh yeah, And I was like, oh, we do that on our podcast. Yeah, our dumb podcast. Our brilliant listeners make less dumb by doing that for us.
Oh no, these are this is just terrorist culture. It's terrorist culture from the UK. That's what we're thinking. Yes, it's all yeah, that's right, Ultras. Yeah, because for Arsenal there is our our most famous manager, Arsen Wenger. We did it to the tune of one time of meta Benga.
There's only one awesome Benga.
There's be and it's like easy because it's I think that's everybody knows that. That's why that's why I gravitated more towards European soccer, because like, I'm like, bro, they're doing more ship than like defense. They're like talking about the like who's the wanka and the green because the referees wear green shirts, and it's just like, you know, anyway, it's all, it's all fun, It's all anyway.
Shout out to the gang. Yeah, I'm throw to be joined as always by my co host, mister Miles Ground Miles.
Break, Freckle Freak, freakl freak, I lovesw Okay. Shout out Cleo Universe because Yeah, I told you I'm a bit. I'm a bit of a I stand for the freckle, you know what I mean, And I'm not ashamed. So yeah, thank you for putting that into a Rick rick jamification.
Of that Rick jammification. I had fried pickles over the weekend at a foot team match at l A f C. And they were bad.
They're not good.
They promised cheeto, what's the spicy cheeto?
Flaming hot, flaming hot.
They promised flaming hot Cheetoh, and they were flaming hot Cheeto in color only, Yeah flavors.
Look, we'll do a Frickle tour eventually. You know the places I trust. Yeah, the Frickle Tour. All right, Miles, we are thrilled to be joined by one of the hosts of the incredible podcast five four, a show about all the ways the Supreme Court is a complete disaster. It's also a supervising attorney at Texas Law has worked the public defender in Rio Grande City, Texas. Please welcome to the show, Rihann and home on.
Hello do I sing? Am I gonna do like a little jingle for myself?
One?
Yeah, I'm here, you're great, hot girl, summer coming up?
Yeah, right predicted here here here. My shoulders started moving a little bit. Yeah. I was like, shit, yeah, I'm feeling that. One. What's your what's your the thing I always ask people and they're like, should I sing it?
Like?
What's your karaoke go to?
Oh?
I do have?
The go to karaoke is always TLC no scrubs. Shit, you start there right like you can. The sky's the limit after that. Yeah, but once you get going on that, the vibes are going on that, your power is sort of centered in a no scrubs direction. Yeah, karaoke is boundless, and.
That's brave because karaoke bars are usually full of so many scrubs. I can't imagine that's very popular.
Yeah, you know, they're like.
They start booing and hissing, she's.
Talking about me. But I just think I do think I'm fine and people. I'm also known to be a buster. No, no, no, sometimes.
I hang out the passenger's side of my best friend ride.
I did get fully hanging out the passenger side of my best friend's ride the whole time. I just did get in the car and I'm hanging out the whole time.
I had a friend who and then when the first song first came out, they could have swore they were saying. It's also known as a bus stop. I was like, you need to hang out around different people.
That's like a that sounds like a Joe Biden slang, like yell the bust up.
He's one of the scrubs.
He's also known as a bus stop.
Corn Pop was always hanging around the bus stop.
I'm serious.
He was a cannibal and I'm serious man, I'm serious.
Man.
No, we know you think you're serious.
Rather, no, you're not a serious person in your brain. You're serious.
Yeah, but I mean that was what I mean. Is I mean what I'm saying, you know, we.
Know we want to do though we wish you didn't, but yeah.
Because your ice cream is melting all over your suit, sir, it's just really unemly. Forget about his ice cream too, imagine. I feel like that would do a lot of damage to his campaigns, just sloppy, melted ice cream all over his suit. He'll be like, oh, you know what, that was it for me somehow, I think.
That's how they They need that damage on top of like genocide or yeah, oh okay, okay, okay, the ice cream is gonna yeah, he'll.
Do yeah, maybe he'll do that to distract from his lack of action there. And he's like, but I got his ice cream all over Oh most sloppy for me. But secretly I'm really mad at BB really secretly, not.
Out Yeah, yeah, no, of course.
All right, Rhann, And we're gonna get to know you a little bit better in a moment. We're first we're gonna tell our listeners what we're talking about five four Just what one of my new favorite podcasts I want. I want Deep on the Federal List Society with you. Yeah, so we're going to talk about just the Federalist Society. I was aware of them, but I didn't I didn't know just how brazen and evil. I didn't know the details.
So I do want to go into the Federalist Society, and then we're going to talk about some just like what the Supreme Court that brought this Supreme Court brought to you by the Federalist Society is up to this.
Week and just in general.
But first we do like to get to know our guests a little bit better by asking you, what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are?
Okay, you know, listen a lot of these personal questions about like what's on your mind right now, what do you think's underrated? That kind of thing. It's tough. I am Palestinian. There is a genocide happening, so like my internet, my like media intake, all of that is real focused on all of that. But something that I did see in my Google search that is really relevant and maybe
not directly genocide related, Adida's traits. Okay, ready, I'm ready to be suited up in the three stripes, down the arms, down the legs. I want it to be a bright color red, yes, maybe a popin kind of lime green. Kind of thing. Yeah, you know, I just it's it's uh, it might not be every hot girl summer vibe, but it is my hot girl summer vibe distract suit.
Wait, what brought you? What brought you around on? Like the breakdancers uniform, like the real og hip hop outfit.
You know, it is also a kind of Palestinian uncle vibe is Adida's tracksuit, right, that kind of thing. And so yeah, just uh, going back to my roots, I guess we could say, hey, yeah.
We all become our uncles at the end of the day. I played.
I played soccer too. I played soccer really seriously for my youth, and so yeah, that was the brand, you know, yeaheah.
For sure, for sure.
I started putting my seven year old in a just black Adidas tracksuit like the one you're describing, and it like the way that it transforms his energy. It's all stolen valor. He doesn't he doesn't play.
Soccer, boy, right, where'd you come up at?
Yeah, it doesn't play soccer, doesn't break dance yet, but it's really like the that is a powerful, powerful article.
I feel like I've always been a coward. I've only gone pant or jacket, like I've never actually bought a full blown like one of my favorite I remember eighth grade, I wore the fuck out of these gray Adidas three stripe pants that I had, like to the point they were just gnarly. But then I remember I didn't have money for the matching jacket. So then later on when I was like, dude, am I a full track suit? Guy?
I then I fell back because I knew a lot of breakers, and I was like, they're gonna just flame me because I'm not a breaker. Yeah, and now now you know what I need to embrace. I need to embrace the energy that is the old head three three stripe suit. But I feel like it's coming back anyway. Like it's just because everything's so cyclical, like it's it's.
All right, and everybody's wearing sambas. The sneakers, Yeah those are It's crazy. I was wearing those in seventh grade, like not as a cool kid.
Right, that's you know the soccer nerd kids where they're like yo, yes, not even on the pitch, and they wear it. They can't. Yeah, kick the shoe game, okay.
Yeah, next snap bracelets coming back.
Then we're going to be all the way back.
Yeah, what is something you think is underrated?
Okay, you know I gave a lot of thought to this as well, and I'm going to say having a crazy cat underrated. I'm not a cat person, didn't think I was a cat person, but just recently got my first cat. She's orange, her name's Petra. She is psychotic, She's truly psychotic. I can't say it's a rewarding experience, but there is something to it. A certain Jena se Quah to coming home and there's a little critter climbing up the wall, right, just free sola claws in the dry wall.
Oh wow right.
Yeah, no, there's It really adds a little something to your day. So yeah, I would recommend everybody get a cat. Mix up your mix up your daily routine. Maybe the you know, the chaos is coming from inside the house.
Right for sure? The climbing up the walls, that sounds like, uh, I just saw the security deposit goal poof thinging about. I didn't know.
I didn't know that orange cats are in particular crazy. Oh yeah, apparently they are and I am living it, so yeah, right right, Scaling the curtains, scaling the walls.
Wow, yeah, yeah.
So not Garfield crazy, but crazy in a different way, a little bit more energy. There's.
Yeah, there's a little bit more chaos to it rather than the kind of four to twenty Garfield right right, right?
Have you?
Like? Because I have cats too, and they were just shredding up like our furniture, so like people were like, you know, like you could declaw them, Like, I'm not doing that, are you kidding me?
No, no way.
But we did put the little rubber finger tip things on the claws, and I don't know if it was worth the effort of trying to basically give a cat a manicure. Drank cats manicures on like both of their front paws, But yeah, we gave up on that pretty quickly, Like, you know what, maybe just fuck the couch up. That's what you want to do.
Couch is yours now, you're right for you.
That was stupid to me to have this air.
I've discovered that double sided tape. She really doesn't like it. But then your couch has double sided tape on it, you know, so there's.
Just a little trim of popcorn around the bottom of your couch like it's Santa's suit. Yeah, cover the popcorn and pennies. I don't know why pennies, but.
Just good couch stuff. That's couch stuff. That's stuff you find a couch.
What is something you think is overrated?
My answers for this, I don't want people to scream at me. You know. I was like, instantly, my body, my heart, my mind went Taylor Swift. I can't say that we're gonna be so so mad at me on the internet. But yeah, all right, so you know Taylor Swift. Obviously. Then I was like, no, I can't say that. Well, what's the next thing that's like overrated? Well, Democrats, the Democratic Party, they fucking suck right now. People who like
them are weird. But then I don't want people to yell at me about that either, you know.
So they're pretty cool about that. They take they take criticism pretty well.
I feel like, what do you mean? What is blue?
And so, you know what, I've landed on overrated podcasting sitting in my damn closet once a week speaking into a zoom.
You know, that must suck.
You must not have much going on.
That's the thing too, overrated podcasting. I have. I have a podcast. I also have a job, so yeah, it's a lawyer job on top of that. So so yeah, man, I'm I'm exhausted.
That's a lot. That is a lot, but it also makes your show so great, like the all the hosts have legal backgrounds.
And yeah, functional ones, yeah, not just fun.
I could have I could have passed the bar, but I.
Was like, dude, I don't need to do this. My parents. I could go to law school anyway, but.
That three times to my legal pot.
Don't worry about it.
Yeah, and I never did as good as I thought I should.
Have to me and amicus brief is when my homies text me what's up tonight? You see, Oh, I know what's up, dude. That's wrong. Legally, that was really good. I did feel it.
So where are we on the pronunciation of amicus brief? I've always gone as but okay, I feel like, yeah, one of the hosts pronounced it in a different way on you know what.
For Yeah, for plural, so plural amicus is amaici, but some people say amichi, that's.
C i and.
Yeah, harsh, yes, Yeah, We're all over the map on this one.
Yeah, I've always heard it amaki, but I think who you're talking about on the podcast my co host Michael, who sometimes comes with Latin pronunciations that are just yeah from outer space, never heard of before.
Yeah, but this is how I was pronounced in ancient Rome. So yes, that's where we're going. We're not going to get laughed out by them.
I'm telling you that I'll be laughed at by everyone, but not my Latin professor, but not Cicero.
No, yes, all right. Should we take a break and come back and talk about the fed sock is which I now know that fed sock means the Federalist Society. Yeah, let's do that.
We'll be right back, and we're back.
We're back, and and I highly recommend everybody, upon completing this go check out the five to four and specifically the Federalist Society history.
It's it's. Yeah, I'm just gonna keep going.
It's it's it's And I think that communicates plenty, but I guess so.
I always found it.
Amazing, mind blowing that there was in the earliest twenty century something called the Business Plot, where a bunch of industrialists and business people tried to recruit a US general to overthrow FDR's government and just be like, now we're we fucking fascism and like we want better conditions for businesses.
And it was unsuccessful, but it was so brazen, so out in the open, and just so like counter to whatever, like what America is supposed to stand for that it just seemed like wild to me when I learned about that, like ten fifteen years and now I feel like this the Federalist Society just was that, and they just stuck with it and have basically succeeded in doing what those people, like what those the uber wealthy were trying to do in the earliest twentieth early twentieth century, Like even early
funders of the Federalist Society were like the melon like billionaires, you know, like that gilded like literally Gilded Age money monsters who were probably involved in the business plot got the Federalist Society off the ground, and now we live in basically like what the business plot would have liked America to look like.
It feels like.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so the Federal Society. I think people like listening to this, like you might be familiar with like the term. They know that the Federal Society is an organization, especially when Trump was president and was making his nominations to the Supreme Court. It like came out that Trump was saying explicitly, Yeah, the Federal Society is providing me with these names. Right, I got the I got the shortlist for Amie Cony Barrett, right for Amy
Cony Barrett and Neil Gorsich and Brett Kavanaugh. Those came to me from the Federal Society. So I think people like have a sense of like, well, who the fuck are these guys? Right?
You know, yeah, right, yeah, they do listicals.
That's right. Number three will make your heart flutter.
But what we talk about on five to four is how the Federal Society is really kind of like the judicial wing of the Republican Party.
Now.
The Federal Society as an organization, it bills itself, kind of presents itself. They call themselves a debate club. They say they're a network of conservative attorneys, judges, conservative legal academics, professors, right, And they say that they're just there to like talk about ideas, debate ideas in you know, conservative legal spaces.
That kind of thing. Bring together all kinds of conservatives so we can debate, and sometimes we bring liberals in two so that we see the other side and stuff like that's how they talk about themselves, right, and the Federal Society, this organization, they have student chapters at law schools all around the country and where in fact ostensibly kind of started as a student organization at Yale and the University of Chicago in the early eighties.
But eighties Student one of those grassroots student organizations funded by billionaires.
That's right, exactly, So they have all.
The best food at their meetups.
Right right, You peer behind the curtain one step and you see that, like, this is not a student organization, This is not a debate society. This is, like I said, this is the judicial wing of the Republican Party. This is the legal services provider for the Republican Party and for the conservative legal movement. So any conservative legal mission like goal right, overturning Roe v. Wade, you know, the
crushing of the administrative state. Federalist Society lawyers, Federalist Society professors, Federalist Society judges are all on the same page about all of this stuff and working in this network to bring those cases to the Supreme Court and effectuate those kind of like conservative legal goals. Because the Republican Party has realized over the past fifty years, the Republican Party has realized that its policy goals are minoritarian, They are
not popular. They actually wouldn't win if real democratic processes were in place to vote on what they want. So they have to use the judicial branch to reach their policy goals.
Yeah, and they're doing it to an extent, an extent where I mean now like everyone's just like, what is what is the Supreme Court? Now? I mean I get that there were ideologues in the Supreme Court in years past, but I think obviously now that it's like there's no breaks on the conservative side. Now, we're just getting like decision after decision where I feel like every time people are like, is is it legitimate? Do we how do
we contend with it? And yeah, Like to your point, it's they're basically once some freaky billionaires like how do I get this? Doney're like, oh, yeah, we'll figure out a way, even if we have to make up a victim, yeah, to bring to the court. And they won't even really you know, really pry into that. I mean the last few cases, we're like, this person isn't even a web designer, and they're trying to act as if like she's suffering damages or something by this law, and you're like, fucking
how and you get that there's a whole machine. This is an apparatus, a machine, a whole thing pushing this all.
Yeah, that's the case. Three ZHO three creative, really really good example of how like the Federalist Society, the conservative legal movement, and now six fucking maniacs on the Supreme Court are are dealing with their issues that they you know, it's like we call it results. It's oriented, like they know the result that they want out of a case and they'll get there no matter what.
Yeah, brains, yeah exactly.
Yeah, yeah I thought they I thought they called balls strikes. That's what. Wait what Yeah they call ball strikes. Yeah, that's right.
They call it a strike.
Yeah, that's a strike.
The only aspect of the story that made me hopeful was like how successful they they've been, Like the the history of the Federalist Society shows how quickly things can change. Now granted, like things have changed for the worst, like in huge way, like just compared to the seventies when this takeover kind of first started, Like guns were not mentioned in the Republican Party's like platform until like seventy six.
Prior to that, everyone was kind of like, yeah, no, the Second Amendment is about militia's like it like it says in Constitution, which we're supposed to be like into I guess as a party. And like there's a quote from a conservative justice who calls, like the Second Amendment thing that we're all familiar with and like I came up assuming was like a permanent part of the Republican Party. There's like a conservative justice who's like calls it the
greatest fraud they've ever heard. Like if they can so I don't know, Yeah, it just if they can shift things that far that quickly, like maybe we can shift them back to where they were like in the seventies, like in some of these cases where it's just gotten so much worse because of them. But I don't know that. That was like the thing that I found one of the most startling things I found about it was just how much they have changed and how quickly it's happened.
Yeah, Like it shows the power the federal of society's success, the success of the conservative legal movement more broadly, Like it shows the power of like building a movement, like organizing, like taking courts seriously, right, Like it's not it wasn't like magic that did it. It was that, like people coalesced around their common interest in opposing the New Deal, the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, and movements
to expand democracy. We can say, right, they didn't like that, and so they started to organize against it. They made connections with politicians all of that stuff, and over like I said, over the past fifty years, like they are now, you know, kind of living in the world that they built, like living with their successes. And unfortunately they're still full
steam ahead because they're an incredibly powerful movement now. But I think you're exactly right, Jack, Like people will, especially law students, will ask us when we like go to law schools and talk about this stuff. Law students will ask us like they're like hopeless, They're like despondent, right, They're like, what, like this world is unacceptable? How on earth do you like fight back against the federalist society?
And I think that's because like a lot of young people like you, just you have come up into your adulthood in like a Trump presidency, like everything awful, like institutions just completely illegitimate on their face, corrupt, and you're just like, how do you fix this?
Right?
But taking a step back, it's exactly like you said, Jack, like politics can actually move quite quickly, and it just means that, like movements need to be built, we also can organize ourselves against what they're doing, right, And there are lots of different methods that actually, like it's not about like building a response twin organization of the Federalist Society to oppose the Federalist Society, right, it's about like recognizing, like you know, if you're interested in social justice, if
you're a movement lawyer, all of these people, like we have power that is very very different from a billionaire funded my case to go to the Supreme Court, right, and we should be using it, right, And those things can happen very quickly in politics. Historically they've happened very quickly. So this is not like, you know, the end is not written, Like the federal society as it is today is not the world that we live in forever now, like we can do something about it.
Yeah, like things EBB and flown right now, I think if you're younger, then you've been caught up like you've only known peak federalist society power exactly. I don't know how the fuck does this change, but like anything, yeah,
things opinions change, and movements begin to form. And yeah, I think this is I mean, I think because of the like depravity of the Supreme Court, it's it's doing the thing of like naturally beginning to radicalize people or at least bring people into a level of consciousness about Okay, so wait what how Okay? And they are able to get there why because their corporations are now treated as people and can also spend unlimited sums of money that
is actually affecting the legislative products. Okay, okay, okay, okay. And I think yeah, to that end, I feel like we're just I mean, we talk about this all the time when we look at younger people, and like when I was in college, I was like I was engaged, but not to the degree that I even see people that are in high school are now because the stakes are just completely different for them. So there is like this double edged sword thing here where with the fuckery
comes increased knowledge. But yeah, it's it's it's definitely a difficult time could be existing.
Yeah, exactly, And I think it's about like seeing where where power is right now and how we can transfer power right so right now, it's like not about like building the most powerful liberal legal organization to counter the federalist society. It's actually about saying, like, the federalist society has too much fucking power in our politics and in our law making and in you know, in the judiciary
the Supreme Court has too much fucking power. And so you know, things like structural reforms, movement building that shift power to the people, should who should have it, workers, consumers, the people, right, democratic structures of government. That's where that's where our focus should be.
Yeah, I was thinking about that too, right, Like you know, I guess I was. We will talk about like what we could do later on, but it's come up pretty naturally now. Is like, you know, most people look at it and go, what can we do? Like if it like like all these people are screaming and shouting that they don't want X, Y or Z, but they just don't care, And I get that, Like, you know, one version is to build up the people power to do
something like that. And then the other version too, is like if we want things like term limits or like if we want to pack the courts, we need legislators to do that, and that means like we have to count on them, because based on what I've seen, our legislators move at a pace that could be described as heroin snail And so that does make me a little
bit weird. But how you look at that, because I think that is one of the ways too, Like we do need legislation that actually arises like that intersects with the justices out of place that they know they're like, oh, okay, these are new rules now. Yeah, but how like how do you sort of look at that and what do you see as being like more effective versus the other or if we should just be like no, no, no, like for patient maybe this will work.
Yeah, no, No, it's not about patients. It's about like like doing some real shit, right and doing some real shit kind of like across the board, across all of We should be using all of the tools that we have for this. So when like I said, we should be decreasing the power of the Supreme Court, how do you do that? There are lots of ways. Some of the things that you've just described are really good ways
that like we should be pursuing. So packing the court, making the court bigger, making the number of justices bigger on the Supreme Court decreases the power that each individual justice has, right, it spreads power over a bigger body, meaning Sam Alito, the fuck face, Brett Cavanaugh, the psycho, Clarence Thomas don't have that like that the power that's currently consolidated in them right now. Packing the court is a really really is a really great way to decrease
that power. And that's kind of like what you're talking about with this kind of like short term, long term thing, right, we should be using like the short term avenues that are available to us in building a long term where the Supreme Court, the federal society, corporations have less power over all of us, right, term limits, that's a really good idea. I think there are tons of ideas for structural reform of the Supreme Court, and we should be
like talking about all of them. That's when it comes to the politicians, right, it's a failure of the Democratic Party that the Republicans and the federalist society, the conservative legal movement has taken the court so seriously for decades now, and they've won what they've won, and they are like rolling around in the pig sty shit that they've created
and then love it. They're partying, right, and Democrats still are not taking the Supreme Court seriously, still not saying, hey, we need to reform this, Hey we need to we need to be doing our politics around this too.
Yeah right, what like what's the fear of the Democrats to legislate the courts? Like what you know? I mean, because I get part of it too. Is like, at the same time, both parties still serve corporate interest to a certain extent, so like obviously they're like, hey, you know, like maybe go that. Maybe they's just the will of the donors, aren't there or what, or is just historically
that there's just this like aversion to it. But that's the one thing all I see is like things happen and then you'll see people like Chuck Schumer or Nancy Polsy're like, you know what, we got to do something about the Supreme Court, just not now, and I don't know when, but I'm gonna say that out loud because that's what we do as a party. I mean.
I also, thing I always hear them say is that if they packed the if Democrats pack the court when they're in office, won't the Republicans just pack the court back at them? And if so, it like who does that benefit overall?
I guess yeah, yeah, okay, So I have two thoughts about this. One is like the historical thing in history, pressure on the Supreme Court by the other branches of
government works. So most famously, probably the most famous example is FDR in the nineteen thirties, early nineteen forties, and with Congress is passing all of this New Deal legislation, right, getting people jobs, right as a communist, getting people jobs, getting people to work, outlying child labor, you know, more rights for workers, supporting unions, all of that kind of stuff. And the Supreme Court at that time was conservative and was striking down all of that legislation left and right.
What did FDR do. FDR threatened to pack the court. He was like, I'm about to add justices if you guys don't get in line. And what did the Supreme Court do? They got in line. They started, they stopped striking down that legislation so that New Deal legislation could actually go into effect. So there are historical analogs here, like we could be looking at that or historical analogs for Democrats actually using the fucking political power that they have, right,
And so there's that. And then the other thing that I was going to say to your point Jack about like this counter argument that Democrats will be like, well, Republicans will pack the court if we pack the court, and then it will be all Republicans. The thing that is, like, the thing that people don't stop and realize is that Republicans have packed the court. We live in a reality that is a Republican packed Supreme Court and federal judiciary.
When Trump was in office, he nominated twenty five percent of the current federal bench. All federal district court judges were nominated by Donald Trump. That's because that Republican president took the judiciary seriously and was like, oh, we have
all these spots to fill, let's go, right. So we live in the world that is already a Republican packed court, a Republican packedjudiciary, and so Democrats should be taking that seriously as as sort of a method again one of the tools that they have, and because the result would be that when Republicans pack the courts, the results are power is consolidated in the wealthy in corporations, et cetera.
If Democrats would pack the courts, the results would be people have more power, workers have more power, women have more power, minorities have more power. That's very hard to take away once it's given. Right, So the threat, but I don't know a generation to generations from now that
then Republicans would come back and pack the court. And if Democrats packed the court first, that is so remote, Like, let's actually do something with the power that we have to give power to more people, and that is doing politics, that is doing good governance, right, And yeah, I'm not worried about Republicans packing the court in fifty years. I'm worried about the Republican packed court right now.
Right because it's there. It's like it's more the Democrats are unpacking than packing.
You're just letting it being packed.
Really, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
The last thing that I just wanted to cover on the federal society is there's been this narrative of, well, the Conservatives now that they overturned Row, are kind of like the dog that caught the car, and it's kind of this hopeful thing of like, yeah, but that that was all they cared about right, and now they accomplished that it's unpopular. They're kind of fucked what what are
they going to do? And I think you specifically framed it as like the Federal Society is a service provider to the Republican Party, like they will move in accordance with whatever the Republican Party wants. Like the gun thing
didn't start with the Federalist Society. It started with like Reagan, and you know, the Republican Party kind of adopted some of the NRA and then the Federalist Society is like, all right, well we are the judicial wing, as you said, of the Republican Party, so we're just gonna get in line. So they are going to be you know, as Trump you know, continues to wheel power or you know, let's say he wins the next election, they are going to
be a fascism machine like that. It's not going to be a thing where they're like, all right, well this is the bridge too far. I think like January sixth, the fact that they wouldn't like ratify a separate set of electors like the Supreme Court, I think made misled me to be like, so the Supreme Court like ultimately is not going to just go along with Trump's bullshit.
But like a lot of people in the Federalist Society who like put those justices on the Supreme Court were like guns blazing, like January sixth, like election overturning, like conspiracy theorists like that. One of the founder was like, guys, this is too much like Trump shouldn't be allowed to run for president. And they were like, you can't call yourself the founder anymore. The title, yeah, this quest title. And he was like, I'm sorry, I like Donald Trump again.
Juary six was tight, but it's just like I do think the near future is just as dangerous, and you know, there there are a lot of really dark possibilities with the Federalist Society just as much as like the recent past.
Yeah yeah, you know, we said that the Federalist Society, you know, provided the list for Trump for who he was nominating to the Supreme Court. Those justices. In fact, the six conservative justices on the Supreme Court right now are currently members of the Federalist Society or have been at points in their past. Just want to make it clear, like this is this is a network that is like, uh, this is a network that's promoting from within its own ranks.
These are their own people, right, and there's not a separation. There's not a separate There is not a separation between the Federalist Society and the people on the Supreme Court.
Yeah.
I think January sixth is like a really interesting like
moment in history. I guess you could say for the Federalist Society because I think that if we're kind of calling the Federal Society like a party, a political party, it's it's not officially, but if we think about it like that, they learned lessons from January sixth, right, And I think a really big lesson they learned was that you know, they can, as they were in January sixth, leading up to January sixth and afterwards, in all of the litigation, whether it was Trump's fraud claims about votes,
whether it was about you know, states certifying their electors, all of it, Federal Society lawyers had their hands on all of that. We're directing all of that. There are Federalist Society lawyers who were actually took part in planning
the January sixth stuff like specifically. But I think the lesson learned was that the public at large probably was left with a bit of distaste about the actual coup part, right, the actual invasion of the capital part, right, whereas the Federalist Society could have and I think now has learned the lesson that it can still be behind the scenes doing all of the legal machinations, all of the legal stuff, the legal work that needs to be done to effectuate
the result that they want, which is Trump winning the presidency next time. Right, And so yeah, I think they've learned that lesson, and they know that the messy coup literal riot part was maybe something that would like kind of made it overall unsuccessful. But they know that they have allies on the court up and down the federal judiciary.
The lawyers have been working on this stuff for years, meaning like what kind of cases to bring their red for the litigation, and yeah, they're the Federalist Society has always been really good at at this exactly the behind the scenes work where they're not saying like the Federalist Society is bringing this case. The Federal Society isn't suing anybody. It's people in this network.
Right.
Yeah, they don't give up. They've been they try and try, and you know, they were trying to overturn Row for decades and then they just kept trying different things until they found a strategy packing the court with Federalist Society people that actually worked exactly. So, yeah, this isn't going to stop until an alternate force is put to work that stops it in counterbalance that.
Yeah, and you know, like a lot of legal analysts or journalists media at the time that Dobbs came down, which overturned Roe v. Wade, a lot of commentators were like, oh, well, what's the Republican Party going to do?
Now?
What's the Federalist Society going to do? Now? Like they they won, they got their like big achieved their big project of overturning Row, and now it seems like they're going to be like kind of disorganized and they don't really know what they're working on now false false false false false.
So right, it's like their was like check made assholes. Wait wait, you just took it after I embryos yet, right exactly, Like.
Right, So it's like, again, if we're thinking of them as kind of like a political party, like now it's more like a normal political party where there's different bowls of interest, less focused on the one single issue that they did coalesce around over you know, since since Roe v. Wade, since the early seventies. But they have tons of energy, tons of political will, and and again what they're working on is even more fascist stuff coming down the pipeline.
And it's all centered not just their opposition to Roe v. Wade and abortion rights. It's all centered on their opposition to the New Deal, to the civil rights movement, to the women's rights movement, and to expanding democracy. So the wildest, most fascist shit you can think of, legally, they're working on it right now. It's absolutely coming down the pipeline.
Whether that's like rolling back protections for women and queer people, whether that is saying you don't have a right to contraception, whether you know we're talking about like prisoner's rights, the rights of criminal defendants, all kinds of stuff. They are absolutely still working on it. They are not disorganized now that they quote unquote one overturn at Robi ways.
I think the only part that I think they're like conflating what the aims are of the federalist society and like the broader conservative judicial movement with like the electoral politics of people that are a down ballot of Trump who are like, ooh, I don't know what to do now. It's like yeah, sure, in that narrow sense, yes, exactly,
it's difficult now to campaign. But in terms of like a movement, like we're already saying, it's like they want to basically, they really want to go back to the nineteenth century at best, you know.
Yeah, yeah, and that's the Federal Society being that service provider. So you best believe they are hooking up with Republican and conservative politicians and being like, here's what you can campaign on. We're working on this. This is what donors care about right now, right yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Marshall from the podcast You're Wrong About talks about how the right wing takeover of media and of politics over the past like fifty years has been very similar to like the panics that the right wing was having about like communism, like the Red Scare, and like Satanism and stuff like it's been this you know, smaller like minority group that has imposed its ideals through. Yeah, just like behind the scenes infiltration and all the shit that they were worried about.
Like I feel like their.
Concerns around the Satanic panic and like the red scare. We're just like them telling on themselves or giving them some of ideas about like how to do this ship. Yeah. Yeah.
The Republicans, conservatives in general, especially social conservatives, they'll they're they're really good at making the issues they care about into culture war bullshit, right, like really firing up a base, really like, yeah, firing up this moral panic about stuff. And then when you like take a step back, you're like, hey, people voting, like you're talking about mail in ballots, like what you know? So yeah, yeah, that's as tried and true tale, as old as time for sure.
Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break and we'll be back to talk about what's happening on the Supreme Court this week.
We'll be right there a lot, and we're back.
We're back, And I keep seeing the stories about what the Supreme Court's up to. It seems bad, not good.
Yeah, this week and who bettered. I'm like, I'm like, just I want to pick Rihanna's brain with a few cases that we've seen kind of begin to bubble up over the last few months. The first one is Grant's Pass, the City of Grants Pass in Oregon. They're basically arguing and please correct me if I'm wrong. Essentially that cities will have the ability to punish people for having nowhere to sleep as like to say that like if you are, if you have a if you're sleeping outside or putting
up a tent, whatever that is. Now that's there's nothing to protect you, not even the Eighth Amendment, which I guess I mean, I was like, which cruel and unusual punishment was that protecting us from? Because it's not us capitalism for sure, but like is that? I mean I feel like the very distilled version of that I get is the Supreme Court is now going to basically come down on whether or not sleeping outside is a crime.
I think that's maybe pretty broad. But how should we be looking at that, because this feels like this has a lot of ramifications for many people who live in cities.
Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. Like that that is the essential like distillation of what's happening here. So, yeah, people who are unhoused sleeping outside and in some cities states what have you, you can be criminally charged for that. Now, I think in Grant's past it's a ticket, right, Like it's not necessarily that you you know, can go to prison for this. But it is a ticket, a citation
that is under the law a punishment. If you have to pay a fine for something, that's a punishment, right. So the Supreme Court here is deciding, you know, if you are punishing somebody for being unhoused, is that cruel and unusual? And I think the specific setup actually in this case is, you know, there are cities where maybe you can get a ticket for they call it a lot of places to call it public camping, right You're camping on public grounds, in a park, under a bridge,
that kind of thing. There are cities where you can get a ticket for public camping, or the police can come and take down your tent and trash your belongings. And that's super super messed up obviously. But in a lot of cities they have shelter beds, there is enough sort of emergency housing or housing for unhoused people that people aren't forced to do public camping in grants pass and in the cases from the Ninth Circuit that are
the ones going up to the Supreme Court. In this case, the issue, for example, like in San Francisco, is that San Francisco has police go tear down homeless encampments, but there aren't enough beds in San Francisco, for there aren't enough shelter space. There isn't enough shelter space where those unhoused people can go. So it's in that kind of like specific legal situation that is like, is this cruel
and unusual? Because you are literally criminalizing them for taking the only option that they have, right there is no other choice. They don't have another place to sleep, right, So is that cruel and unusual? Now, unfortunately, I hate to break the bad news, but the Supreme Court sucks.
When I thought you said the Supreme Court, Yeah, it is.
How they like.
How they got away with the Supreme thing. Supreme always means superior, means all the top things, all the topings.
Unfortunately, Supreme sucking in this in the in this realm. But yeah, no, there's no expectation here that the Supreme Court is going to be like, yeah, this is cruel and unusual punishment. You are violating these people's constitutional rights when you punish them for essentially being unhoused, right, yeah.
Because you hear what the proponents say, and it's like such like just inhumane bullshit where they're just like, well, I mean it's really quite simple. It's like we need to help our lawn enforcement figure out if they even have the ability to help keep our cities safe. And and then like completely skirting and then you hear that really bad talking points, like some people just want to be out there, like even if they have help, without
actually talking about like the conditions some shelters are. And for some people it's like, yeah, I'd rather take my chances on the street than go to the shelter because an X, Y and Z threat I have there. But again it's mostly lost and like do you want to help, like police make our city safer? And it's really just about that, Like it's really.
The chamber of commerce and right people local businesses when in doubt they're going to I mean, especially now following Citizens United, where like corporations are have more rights than individual people. Anything that's like, well, this lowers our property value or our ability to god really yeah, yeah, I.
Didn't scare you want, but oh my god, your property value?
Yeah yeah, like that is more important under the current rules.
Yeah, I think like a big kind of takeaway of the case, or not even a takeaway, but like this case is a good example of something which is that social problems, the problems in our society, often end up going to the Supreme Court, where, you know, if you're on the side of social justice, if you're on the side of welfare for people, if you're on the side of equality and justice, that's that's the Supreme Court is a dead end. Right, Supreme Court is not going to
solve our social problems. Here. The social problem is policing, the idea that public safety quote unquote is about tearing down unhoused people's tents, right, and the existence of homelessness to begin with. The housing crisis in America is a social problem, right, that is not going to be solved
by this case. And yeah, it's a good example of politicians and people not coming together to work on actually solving those issues and just making it a you know, a police a law enforcement issue, taking it up and down the federal judiciary to the Supreme Court and back again, and nothing really gets solved. Right, people are still unhoused, that's a problem.
Yeah, But then for them it's like, well, at least legally now we can brutalize them. However, exactly exactly, the guys of we're actually keeping them safe because some of them don't, you know, it's like it's so unserious. And then this, I mean, this next one I think is probably gonna get the most attention, even though there's also obviously the Idaho abortion ban is something that the court
is gonna hear. And also like Starbucks, like like, well you help with a union bust, amongst many other things, which I'm sure they're gonna be like, oh, yes, my good, Yeah, my good? Is Starbuck?
Yeah up there? Yeah, like Starbucks versus a union, Like, oh my god, is.
The National Labor Relations Board go off their fucking rockery?
Yeah?
I think so. I think we need to yank Delicia a little bit today here. But the other one is that Trump immunity is Trump immunity. God, you know that was I think like with this one from from I'm guessing right, especially everything I've heard, this case really isn't gonna go anywhere because Trump's team is essentially arguing a president cannot face charges for anything without first being impeached and convicted by Congress. If that doesn't happen, they can kill,
they can do murders. Resealed Team six and it's like, what but I feel like here the victory for him was the fact that they were like, okay, but we're gonna delay our decision so that can come up the rest of your legal trials here. That kind of what's going on.
That's one hundred percent right. And it's also not just his legal team delaying, right, the Supreme Court is helping.
Right exactly, yeah, right, because they would have right normally, it would have been opening, like even the Supreme Court be like, come on, fam because that means Joe Biden could do whatever the fuck.
He wants now, right exactly exactly. So, yeah, this all has to this. This actually does come out of January sixth. You know, Jack Smith, special counsel, brought an indictment against Donald Trump, criminal indictment for the coup plot basically, and this lawsuit Trump's laws are saying, well, no, you're actually immune from being sued or from criminal prosecution any legal actions against you while you are president. Right, that is obviously a wild argument because again, like you just.
Said it, Okay, so because nobody can touch me.
I.
Can the president murder?
Like? No?
Surely not right, Like the president is not absolutely immune.
That's what the lawyers are kind of saying, because I remember what was the lower court that first heard them. They're like, hold on, let me get this right. You just so he could he could hit up Seal Team six, just snuff somebody out.
And they're like, yeah, this is like getting in the weeds. But you know, the president does violence of course, nature being the president, right, like Obama ordering drone strikes, was Obama doing murder. They're all war criminals. But yeah, this this this lawsuit kind of like on its face, Yeah, the Supreme Court. I don't think anybody thinks the Supreme Court, even these Supreme Court justices, I don't think anybody thinks
they're going to be like, yep, you're right. The president is immune from everything while the president is in office. But the little tricks they're doing is about the delay so that this case doesn't actually get decided at a time when it really matters, right, which is to say, before the election. So the Supreme Court granted cert, which means they accepted the case, They said they would hear
the case. They granted cert months after they could have, and then when they said they would hear the case, they scheduled the oral argument for the end of April. When they could have heard the case much earlier there were dates available. Scheduling it for the end of April means we likely will not have a decision until late June. And then if that means if the decision is no, he's not immune from every thing, he can be taken to trial, then that means the trial would still have
to happen. Right, You're talking about months and months and months, if not years, And then you know, you got the election coming up in November, like Trump is going to be the president or he's not. But this decision about whether or not he is convicted of a crime for the January sixth coup attempt, you know that it by that time it will be irrelevant because it will either win the election or not, right right, right.
That's just yeah, it's fun to see. It's fun to see. I'll play it like I keep saying, November, take your time, Please take your time, you know, let me just be so present throughout here, all.
Right now, just give us, like a ESPN talking head, take is Trump gonna win the presidency or not?
Just yeah, what do you think? You hear?
This guy's the bet?
No. One last question as relates to Scotus because I feel like there's always these moments right before we go. I'm sorry, I had to I had to ask you this,
why I have you here. There's always these moments right where you're like, man, I know how I know Kavanaugh was gonna send it what coney barretts about sending what Neil's about to say, and then like they they switch it up like and find their spine in like the weirdest ways, Like specifically Neil Gorsich, who's like tribal rights, Man, I'm telling you don't fuck with that, and you're like, but but fuck everyone else's rights, Like like how do you how do you sort of view these like like
you know, I've heard some theories like he's so conservative that like it intellectually brings him to a point where he's like he has no choice but to defend tribal rights. Others like well he grew up in the Southwest and this, this, that and the other. But how do you see like these flashes of like when you're like somehow like Amy coney Barrett had a half decent opinion, is that them being like I gotta kind of edge with the wacky shit.
So they don't think I'm a total scumbag, so I just do it here and there or is there just like how do you view this sort of like the vacillation between like they're the being moral or not giving a fuck at all? That's right?
Yeah, you know, I think I think you just have to remember that they're individuals, like they're beings.
Right.
Gorsic on tribal rights. Yeah, he spent a lot of time I think, coming up as a lawyer and as a judge in states where tribal rights were something being litigated, right, or like tribal jurisdiction federal Indian law was an issue, right, And so he just knows a lot about it, and I think he can it's not about like caring about
the rights of minorities or people of color. I think he just knows a lot about the law and has totally kind of like he's totally like brought that into his conservative legal approach.
Right.
He's a textualist, so he's able to say things like, look, the treaties with tribes say this, this is the test. I'm a conservative, I'm a textualist. This is how I interpret it, right, yea, And yeah, so they're they're they're all individuals sometimes with kind of like a little surprise here and there, but to them, they're always working within
and for the conservative legal movement for sure. And I would say the thing that is more pronounced, more than like an occasional surprise half liberal take from a conservative justice is actually that they're getting more conservative while they're
on the bench. So Clarence Thomas, sam Alito, John Roberts especially, they are talking about things, writing about things in twenty twenty four in their opinions that there they would not have said, thought put down on paper in opinions, you know, twenty years ago when they were earlier more junior justices.
Right, because they have this little club that they go to call the Federalist Society, where they like give speeches and they're like, uh, it's nice to be somewhere where people aren't protesting outside my house. And everyone's like.
God, yeah, yeah, Hey, Harlan, come out with the money with the money cannon. Harlen, come up with Harley Crow about to hitch out with the money cannon?
Right, Yeah, all right, Well, Rihannon, what a pleasure haveing you. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Where where can people find you? Follow you, hear you all that good stuff.
Yeah, this was really fun. Thanks y'all. So the podcast is called five to four. That's the number five dash, the number four. We're on all social media at five to four pod, all spelled out. I'm on Twitter. Refuse to call it the other thing.
At Awa in this household.
Absolutely not. At a Wa rhiannon. That's Aywa Rhannon And yeah, come check us out five four pod dot com. We are talking about all this shit and more weeke in and week out.
There you go.
Is there a work of media, social media or otherwise that you've been enjoying?
Oh, you know what, I've been watching the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, the ship that is set sale for Gaza. People from all over the world are on this ship. They have tons of humanitarian aid and they are going to attempt to break the seventeen year siege of Gaza by landing at the port in Gaza.
So God bless Yeah, amazing miles Where can people find you? Is there a working media you've been enjoying?
Find me where they have? The social media is at miles of gray. I'm on most of them, you know, So just search there. And also you can find Jack and I on our basketball podcast, Miles and Jack And if you like to play on ninety day Fiance. You know where we get into the nuances of immigration reform. No, we don't. We're just talking about trash reality. Uh, check me out on four to twenty day Fiance. Any tweets I like, Nah, I haven't been on the tweet thing,
but I just what did I start watching recently? Oh? I was watching. I was just watching the rest of it. Actually, no, I don't even recommend it. Never mind. I'm not even gonna like, I'm like, I just have that thing that I was gonna trash. But no, continue doing what you do for your social media's. But yeah, I have no no suggestions.
Your owner, no further suggestions. You're no further suggestions my owner.
All right, Uh yeah, workimedia. Yeah.
Just a twet from Christy Mgucci Man at the Wopple House on Twitter, who tweeted, don't text right now, just learn to the high school from Ten Things I Hate About You is a real high school called Stadium High School. And I don't know if you remember that high school, but it's like it looks like like a cat like Arkham Asylum, but then there's like a big stadium in the middle of it. There's like a field with like this big castle in the background.
It's like one of the.
Wildest things I've ever seen. Anyways, I'll link off for that in footnotes for worth your time. You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brian. You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist, where at d daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fanpage and a website, daily zeitguist dot com where we post our episodes and our footnotes where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode, so well as the
song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, what's song do you think people might enjoy?
This is a song from a duo called Tandy Thha and DII and there from the UK. But they're like studio musicians that used to play with bands like Michael Kiwanuka or like Salt or Cleo Soul, little sims like groups that I definitely fuck with, and they just have like their own project together and it's called Candy and it's got this like DIY like sexy Rick James kind of shit going on in this track. It's called Big Boys Don't Cry and it's just some nice bedroom funk
I think is what I'll call this one. So this is from Tandy. Check it out all right.
We will link off to that in the footnotes. The dailies Like Guys is a production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts my Heart Radio visit there, Heart Radio Wrap, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. That's gonna do it for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and we'll talk to you all then Bye later