Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point thirty two, episode two.
Of their Daily's I Guys Stay production of iHeart Radio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, April second, twenty twenty.
Four, the day after April Fool's Day, wherein we all admit they got our ass. They did get our ass in some cases.
I went to seven eleven and I demanded they give me this the hot dog flavor of sparkling water, and they.
Called the cops. Yeah, that video's going viral.
You really well, Yeah, I probably should have kept my clothes on, but I was really upset. Yeah, but yeah, I will say Also, April second is National DIY Day for all of us that tried to do it ourselves, National ferret Day, National Peanut butter and Jelly Day. And also I'm wondering if, because this is the day after fooling people and being very deceptive, it's also National Reconciliation Day.
Yeah. Man, I've got a lot of apologizing to do. Oh no, and I've got a lot of forgiving to do. Exactly know, if you heard our trending episode yesterday, I wasn't kind about my kids April fools pranks. Yes, I'll show you the sign myles on me.
Wow.
Not not nice.
Yeah. So it's written with gusto too. I can tell it.
Exclamation point that it was. It was after a kick me, so they built to it. It wasn't just like you know, this guy is a piss pig.
Soccer action. Yeah, but yeah.
So we made it through April Fool's Day and to Peanut Butter and Jelly Day. Peanut butter and jelly yeah, together and never never heard of such a thing. That's that's wild. My name is Jack O'Brien aka Kangaroo Jack O'Brien. Yes, I am also known as Kangaroo Jack o' brian.
Pretty frequently.
I'm compared to that film because I often lure you in with the promise of a rapping kangaroo and then it turns out it's just something that I dreamed.
Oh good, that's not in the movie.
Huh it is.
It's a dream sequence.
Oh but it's not a rapping. It's not about a rapping.
It's not about a rapping kangaroo.
Who's that Anthony Edwards?
Anthony Edwards and the kid who played the chubby kid from or Stand By Me. Jerry O'Connell.
Yeah yeah, yep. Oh, Michael Shannon is also in it. Wow yeah early Michael Shannon, Wow wow wow, just bringing.
The I mean Michael Shannon intensity.
To cannot reget this rapping kangaroo to be very entertaining, like, oh god, sorry, Michael Shannon.
That AKA courtesy of the Frequent News Ghost makes sense that they're good at ak is because they're handle an ak of this show. Everybody's always saying, hey, have you checked out the Frequent News Go, I mean the daily site case.
Yes.
Anyways, I'm throwing to be joined as always by my co host, mister Miles.
Grass Miles Gray AKA, ooh wee, I have unbreakable glasses. Oh oh, I dare you to try.
I don't care that they just broke anyway, I don't care about that. Shout out to the Ray J's Unbreakable Sunglasses video where he's asking Speedy to break his sunglass.
Because they don't break them, and then when he breaks them, he said, I don't care. It's just the best, just the best sequence of events. Shout out to Max r on the Discord for for memorializing that in one of my favorite Weezer songs.
So appreciate amazing.
Well, We're thrilled, Miles to be joined in our third seats by an affordable housing advocate who is working to help address modern day redlining by trying to overturn the Thurmond Amendment. Please welcome to the show.
Useuf dog. Well, I appreciate that. I wish I had an aka I could reference, but uh, it's just you.
So it's just sometimes sometimes the name is enough. You know, it proceeds, you know, Valley of the Doll.
Yeah, I don't know.
Let's not think about dollar arts by hole to bring it back to the nineties. Is that the one some day?
Yeah?
Well, think is that? Is that doll parts? I don't not a lot of Courtney Love Cobaine fans in here.
Huh okay, I was.
I was Cobaine, but I think Hoole went a little too hard for me. Look, man, I'm still getting over this idea of peanut, butter and jelly together.
I mean, that's that's crazy.
Oh yeah, yep, you will ache like I that's doll parts, all parts. Thank you nineteen ninety four brain. You're welcome. Uh, but yusef, where are you coming to us.
From Allentown, Pennsylvania?
Okay, okay, I mean it's kind of a seminole place in terms of housing when we're talking about housing, right, I.
Mean, certainly, I think it's the type of city that's emblematic of a lot of our cities across the country that really are a tale of two cities. Right. There's places in this community that are vibrant and thriving, and there's a lot of other parts in the city that have quite frankly been left behind.
Right. Yeah, Yeah, oh man, I'm really looking forward to our discussion because, like as you were saying before we came, you came on, you know, like when we have these guests on to talk about a specific subject, I mean, just the thermin Amendment just opens the door to so many different conversations, whether it's about our car sol system, whether it's about housing, how we view housing, and even how America even does its threat assessments, and they typically
just end up being just overtly racist. And this is no exception, There's no exception.
What is the attitude in Allentown towards the Billy Joel song.
One of ambivalents because it's a good song, right, So it's kind of hard not to like the song. But I think the city has really done a tremendous job of reinventing itself, and so you know, there's a sense that that song really doesn't represent the spirit in the future of Allentown today. So there's a level of ambivalence. But it's Jill Billy Joel, so you can't really, you know, hate it too much.
Yeah, I mean he said opens up, well we're living here in Allentown, and you know, I mean that's those are the only lyrics that I know. So I was going to try and say something profound about it, but okay, I can't remember any of the other parts. Something about a factory town.
There, you remember what that song about?
Incisive commentary like, well, we're living here in Allentown is
a lyric in Allentown there? It is all right, great, Well, we're going to talk about housing in a moment, but before we get into our expert get area of expertise, we do like to get to know you a little bit better by asking what's either something from your search history that's revealing about who you are or something that you have recently screencapped short first screen captured that is revealing about screen shot it even green shot a screen shot it.
Yeah, so my last screen shot was actually a list of Republicans on the Financial Services Committee, so directly related to this work on the the Therm and Amendment. As I'm sure we're going to get into this is this is going to be a big month because we have legislation that's going to be introduced, but we're trying to make it bipartisan, and so I'm doing a lot of work trying to identify folks on the right who might be interested in this common sense reform to extend opportunity.
How's it going? How are you feeling about that?
How you see any any names on there that you're like they seem to exist in a version of reality.
Uh.
I tend to be an optimistic person. I always feel like the thing with legislation is the key is to actually get in front of these people. So for me, the challenges how do you how do you look at this list and how do you mine your network to get in the door. Because you believe that if you can just get in front of these people and explain what you're trying to do, common sense will prevail and you'll get through, right.
Is that do you think that's I mean, I guess there's something with housing. How do you how do you sort of tailor this argument to appeal to someone like Ron Johnson who has dealt in all kinds of really backwards thinking out loud when it comes to things like the carcial system or race and things like that. Do you have to is he actually be like, oh, that's messed up, like people who just had a drug charge can't get in the housing? Like yeah, I want to do that? Or is it? Or like how do you
thread that needle? Because from my perspective, like what do you tell Ron Johnson to try and get him to see the light in terms of something like this is common sense reform, like that there's no net negative here. This is like about just like making things a little bit more equitable. And they'll be like, what is that woke? But yeah, I'm curious what sort of what's the what's the dance with something like that?
Well, so I think first of all, you always have to contextualize this in the framework of opportunity, right, because in theory, everybody wants to extend opportunity to people in this country in theory, and so it was really about legislation, like the Thermin Amendment denies people have been justice impacted the ability to be judged based on market measures and assessments of risk. Right. So, the market has a way of predicting or suggesting how reliable you're going to be
as a creditor. Right So it's your credit score, it's it's your income history. There's a lot of different measures that objectively, the market is signs to you to suggest your risk profile. The Thermin Amendment nullifies all of that. And so the case that I made was, Hey, give these folks access to the free market and the free market mechanisms of risk like everyone else. And you know, and I made the analogy that I can literally go to a bank right now and borrow a million dollars.
I can do that, but I could not secure a townhome apartment because of my twenty five year old drug distribution conviction. That just didn't seem to make a lot of sense. Wow, oh, now does that translate to actual support? I mean that's the right, right, I mean, anyone anyone can sit across from you and say, yeah, that doesn't make sense. But what you really need are folks who are going to put some capital on the table and help you affect this change.
Yeah, abstraction is the root of the problems that are happening where it's like easier to just make somebody a concept, you know that's like on your screen or like a you know, a number on a spreadsheet. And when you actually get in a room with a person and they have to deal with the fact that you know, you are a human being, it at least for that time
can make a big change. But then after the fact, as a matter of like getting them not to go back to the comfortable thing of you know, a system that seems to lend itself to just abstracting people and treating people as like values on a spreadsheet. So yeah, doing truly the difficult important work. What is something that you think is underrated?
I would say, and primarily because I'm a father of a fifteen year old, and I would say youth sports. So she plays a lot of sports, takes up a ton of my time, but it really just gives her a great outlet to develop confidence, learn the priorities of discipline. So I meet young people all the time who aren't in organized sports for a variety of reasons, and I
just think we should do more of that. Like when I was a kid, I mean, even though I wasn't in organized sports leagues, like we would always just go to the park and play pickup basketball or something like this. And now, I mean, God, if I didn't force her to play sports, she would be on her phone on TikTok or something literally ungodly hours a day. So I'm a big believer in youth sports.
Yeah, Like how does cause I have very early experiences with youth sports and it's hard to like maintain sanity and maintain your distance from it. Like do you find yourself just swallowing your tongue while you're at I think your daughter plays tennis.
Tennis and basketball, and I would say, your kids are gonna let you get away with voicing your opinion when they're five and six or seven. Try that at our high school back you won't be back there. So I think you learn just as they get older, what they're comfortable with. And at the end of the day, if if they don't want to hear you, you know, yelling your feedback, you're gonna have to find another way to give it.
That is so wild because like, I can't remember half of my teammates from like some of the organized sports I played as a kid, but I remember the loudest parents that were not my friends. I'm like, damn, bro, mister Borna is going the fuck off again. And you're like and you're like, you're like, yo, man, it's cool. Your dad's so intense, and it's just like, no.
Bro, just like.
Does his look his look that he just gave I swear I see that every basketball Yeah, your daughter in particular, No, no, No, I've learned my lesson.
She will. Yeah, I have to be very deliberate in what I'm doing. But there are some other parents that, oh, man, these guys and it's typically the dad. Yeah, they're they're all in and you're like, whoa, take it down a little bit.
Yeah, right, How do you deal with the screen side of it, like the other side? You know, it sounds like you're thinking of youth sports as like sort of one weapon on the side of good against you know, the screens just taking over. Like I heard in talking to a parent this weekend, they were like, yeah, it kind of feels messed up that like one of the things that like you have as a parent is be like,
no iPad. Then if you're not going to do that, no iPad, then we're gonna like basically we're going to take your drugs away.
Right right right? You know, yeah right your iPad?
Yeah yeah yeah, But like, how how has that process been for you as a parent of fifteen year old?
Yeah, well, as the parent of any fifteen year old is going to tell you, it has to be something serious if you're going for the phone, because you know all hell is going to break out, So it has to be level ten where it's just like, okay, the phone, give me the phone, and you're willing to stand on it. But honestly, I have to be very intentional because otherwise you're gonna say give me the phone and you're gonna encounter a headache that you're just like, man, this wasn't worth it for me, but.
My phone too.
Actually exactly exactly.
What what's something you think is overrated?
Oh? By far? The Stanley water bottles. That's just ridiculous. So yeah, my daughter has a couple of them, which I refuse to buy any of them. But it's sure it's a I'm sure it's a high quality water bottle. Right, I'm familiar with the company, but there's a whole bunch of high quality water bottles that will keep your beverages cold or keep them warm, and they don't have that same price point. So I just think those things are terribly overrated.
Yeah, it feels like there were due for the backlash where some other brand like kind of pops up. We've talked about what's the od one, the o wala Yeah, oh walla. Yeah, that one's pretty good, but doesn't seem like it's quite.
The straw built in. Yeah, it's just but I mean it just shows you again like it was all because of the marketing genius at Stanley, like they pressed it's just all they just want full court press on influencers. That's gonna completely inform the market of what's cool. And when someone's like, yo, I got this limited edition one. It's the Philippines exclusive color way of a fucking cup, and people are like, ah, I'll pick five dollars for it. On the on the secondary market, it's yeah, it becomes
this other thing. But yeah, I mean I feel like, you know, maybe yeah, there's maybe there's a company that comes in. It's like we got the two dollars cup, right, everyone should be buying. But then it's like, but it is made of lead, So we just be really clear on that. Yeah, there's like lead in one of the parts of it and that and I know that that caused some people, especially in Los Angeles to clutch their yoga blocks and be like, oh, okay, right.
Anymore stupid La and their soft hippie dippy ways. They're not happy drinking water out of lead cups.
There's just a part of the cup you don't interact with the part that has lead in it. Okay, that's the thing that many of the Stanley the Stanley stands.
Plus it will help you if you're getting dental X rays.
Yeah.
True, it makes sense, like we needed something that could appear with you in like a shot, you know, like when you're like in a you know, shoes were the thing that was the most kind of captured by the influencer market for a long time. And then like, but you can't have your shoes in like a selfie with you unless you're really flexible. So the Stanley water bottle like answers that.
It's it's like a bag or something because you can have your whole outfit on. Let them know. There's all my signifiers. And also I got the quencher is the forty ounce m hmm. Yeah. I think I'm just intimidated by like things that are that cumbersome too. It's like, bro, I can't, fuck I can't. I can't walk around with a gigantic cup all the time, like like in the house, I have like a normal cup. I can just keep refilling.
But something that big. I remember even when I was like at the height of like my water drinking, I like tapped out of like thirty ounces like.
That, and we're glad we got you back from the edge. Thanks and touch and go there. Yeah, those meetings are helping.
I had to keep going to the bathroom.
I'm like, I'm so sorry.
I usually that's the sign of a different problem, but it was, yeah, like, no, you can't stop drinking water.
So there's a perfect in the thermin event.
Yeah, is he beaming up in the bathroom? No, man, he's drinking forty ounces of liquid at a time. We told him it said danger to his kidneys, but he doesn't listen.
Yeah.
We found one doctor quote doctor in quote who says that he needs forty ounces of water between me.
Yeah, is that even possible?
Bro?
My favorite doctor Bradley from Sublime forty Ounces of Freedom. That's how I that's how, that's how.
I think that's what that song was actually about.
It's Padrinck and forty.
Yeah.
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we will get into it.
We'll be right back.
And we're back.
And so we've been talking about the Thurman Amendment, and so just to confirm off top, the thermon we're talking about here is not beloved Yankees catcher Thurman Munson. No, it's not even kill Bill star Uma Thurman. It is, in fact, a much worse Thurmond Strom. Is that correct, segregationist Strom. Thurmond is who this amendment is named after.
Indeed, Yeah, there's a really interesting Yeah. He just threw it out there in the eighties and kind of completely changed the course of our housing policies, because right when this was happening, this was about making amendments of the Fair Housing Act, where it's like, well, maybe we need to add a new category of protected class disability, and then he's like, ah, I got one, I got one, I got one. What if we strip it away from drug dealers.
How about that, y'all?
Is strong Therman back at it again. I know I took a big o in nineteen sixty four by preventing the Civil Rights Act from happening, but I never let it go of that anger, and I'm trying to get it back in today.
In the eighties.
Yeah, I think it was nineteen eighty eight, was it?
Yeah? It was eighty eight. And what's interesting about it is I was in contact with his archives at Clemson University, and so I said, Hey, I'm working on this legislation. Can you send me anything you have about this particular amendment. And you would think, you know, there'd be communications or
correspondence with trained associations or advocates or impacted people. Literally, there was nothing, nothing in the archives except one piece of paper, and it was his remarks that he delivered after the passage of the nineteen eighty eight Fairhousing Amendments Act. And in his written remarks, he anticipated this amendment failing it literally says, and while my amendment did not pass,
blah blah blah. He actually crossed that out and in handwritten he hand wrote, I'm glad my amendment passed and blah blah, blah. So he didn't. I don't even think he anticipated this passing.
Right, Wow, that is super. I had no idea that because I know, like, oh wow, we're racist racist in this country. Damn all right, guys, thank you.
Oh I don't even know. I'm gonna be real, man. I'm used to going out there saying see that going this way. Yeah, I used to say something so flagrant They're like, strong, shut up, and then I'm like, oh okay, but then they passed. Let me play the clip though, from just him at the lectern, basically saying like this is this is this is what I'm proposing, little strong therment.
One conviction is sufficient, my man. Was simple says that one conviction is sufficient for landlord to refuse to rent to a drug dealer. It's that simple always, my colleagues, to vote for Amendment Faith is to do so makes the rights of law abiding citizens meaningless. Drug dealers deserve no federal protection.
And here we are voice brought to you straight from the eighteen eighties, by the way. Oh yeah, just everything about his voice and accent. I was like, is that being played on a phonograph from like a retired Civil War general. I'm pretty sure.
The suit he's wearing, if there was a pantone color for it, it would be Confederate gray. How on point it is. But you said, can you kind of break down just sort of the nuance here, like what exactly I mean, we've sort of touched upon it and some people may know, but just kind of explain the Thermin Amendment for people.
Yeah, So, essentially, the Thermin Amendment means that if you have a drug distribution conviction, and so that can be for marijuana, it can be for any illegal substance, you
do not have fair housing protection. So a landlord can or a seller for that matter, can look at your application or your offer the purchase and if they find out, whether through a background check or a Google search, that you have a drug distribution conviction, again doesn't matter how long ago it was, doesn't matter extenuating circumstances, they can immediately summarily deny your application or refuse to sell you their property, right right.
And like I know you said you're trying to see any background. This is just like so strange because this feels obviously this was the era where you know, the federal government was finding all kinds of ways to incarce rate, especially people of color during the crack epidemic and these other various periods in the eighties, and this feels part
and parcel to it. But I'm like, is there no, there was no like association of like concern landlords or something that's like Senator Thurmont, I'm telling you, man, these they're just setting up and they're serving the community in a different way, not serving but serving the community. And I just I can't have that in my in my apartment building or whatever. It just came out of his just brain.
Well. So, and this is really the infuriating piece of this legislation for me is in the late eighties there was literally a political strategy where Republicans would attach anti drug legislation to completely you know, non relevant bills in the hopes of getting Democrats to vote against it, and then they would use on the campaign trail and so right, yeah, so this was all just political bullshit, quite frankly, I mean, And and that's what's caused me to dedicate the last
three years of my life to changing this legislation. Because the fact that my family was denied access to housing, that my daughter was denied access to the school, that she wanted to attend because of bullshit racist political games. Is just it's it's something that I can't sit by and just let that impact other families and kids in this country.
Yeah, can you talk about your kind of first hand run in with the Therma Amendment?
Yeah, so, you know, I'm sure we'll get into my background. But I've been a homeowner for many years. But I relocated to Allentown to lead an education organization, and so at the time, my daughter was a rising ninth grader. So we're looking at school districts. I mentioned she's a tennis player, so we wanted a school that both had good academics and a strong tennis program. We identified a community, found a town home, and said, Okay, we'll rent this.
At no point did I even imagine that my application could be denied, right, just because I mean, I haven't had any justice involvement in twenty five years. Hell, what I did at eighteen tells you nothing about who I am as a middle aged bother. Like, it's just it's not really relevant.
They should they shouldn't rent anything to anyone based on who they were at eighteen. If that's if that's a standard, then nobody have anything.
Yeah, well especially if you're forty, you know, plus years old. So yeah, So I get this call and the woman is like, you know, mister Dowe. I said yeah, and she said, well, unfortunately your application was denied. And I said, excuse me, like I was so upset, I had just set my Starbucks down. I'm like, what the wtf? You know, like, are you fing kidding me? Right now? I said, this is use of doll. I do you got the right
dove right right? It isn't roll doll? Yes, And she says, you know, hey, look, I don't know what to tell you. It's been denied. Will send you the letter. And they basically gave me a number from Boston to call about my denial in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And as you can imagine, you know, after wasting a half hour on the phone, I just gave up. I had to find somewhere else
to live. And because I had not anticipated being denied access to that apartment, now, we had to scramble, right because I'm committed to leading this organization, and we ended up ended up securing a housing unit in a school district that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has designated his failing. And so the thought that this guy who quite frankly, you know, we know he was racist, We know he was a segregationist, we know he exploited vulnerable people for
his own personal political gain. The fact that this motherfucker to this day was limiting opportunities for children like my own, that it's still just talking about it just stiffens my result to make sure this legislation is done once and for all.
Yeah, the question that occurred to me is like why it seems specific that they're focusing on drug convictions, Like there's not an equivalent amendment for other like more serious crimes, right, Like there's not strong thermon didn't say murder or domestic abusers or you know, which is something we know as Americans because of you know, the epidemic of gun crime, like domestic abuse is a predictor of future violence, whereas drug distribution convictions don't have long term predictive value as
to whether renters would commit a violent crime in the future or be bad tenants. That's according to Noel Porter, director of government affairs for the National Housing Law Project.
So woman, by the way, So Noel, if you Noel is a rock star, so I just have to give her a shout out.
But it seems like the reason behind this is that they are like significantly racially biased, right, the arrests for drug distribution, Like in Wisconsin where you are from, black people make up six percent of the population and fifty three percent of drug convictions.
Yeah, the disparities are outrageous. And think about this through this mental exercise. You know, you're eighteen years old, you get caught with an ounce of pot, you know, back in you know, when I was nineteen ninety seven. Is that distribution or is that possession?
Right? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, the amounts that were.
It's really quite frankly, going to depend on how good is your lawyer, how well connected are you? Right, Because it's truly this gray and fuzzy line. And so if you're poor, you're likely to have been charged with a distribution. If you have resources, that was likely reduced down to a simple possession charge. And that difference, right, that subjectivity is the difference between losing your fair housing protections for the rest of your natural life. It's just crazy.
Whereas like with murder, they can't they don't they they can't go easy on white murderers.
A murderer could like in this adicts couldn't have murdered be like I'm taking you to court. You can't keep me out of this place because I'm a murder you know.
That's that's exact. Had had my conviction been for murder, I could have sued that housing developer for refusing to rent to me and my family.
Yea, that you had there was technically some kind of legal recourse or this was like I'm sorry, it's not a protected category, so you have no protections here under the law, so you may have to go to where they are willing to rent to people like you. Which again this brings back this whole idea of redlining and segregation and like you know, I meant like we're talking about strom Thurman, like this guy did. He betted all in nineteen sixty four to try and stop like the
civil rights like he did philipbustered. He really tried, and that you know, the precipitated his switch to switching parties because of that and because he was so dedicated to creating this like overtly segregated America. But with these kinds of like with this amendment, it feels like kind of heat like that he won. You know what I mean by framing this this rule around drug dealers was just
coded language, just very obviously coded language. He found like a somewhat nuanced way to keep the people out of the places he feels they shouldn't be to begin with. And we talk a lot about on the show about how, you know, chattle slavery has always found a way to morph into these other oppressive systems, and they all there's there's always some form of control that can be exercised over oppressed groups, especially people of color in this country.
And you know, with people getting kept out of affordable housing because of a prior charge, they've they've created a system that traps people not necessarily physically but in a way physically because you're limited to where you can live, but by excluding them from the things that allow people to improve their situation, like building credit or these other things.
Can you kind of talk to me about how like like how this how you get stuck like sort of how this very specific form of redlining or segregation keeps people stuck like the the like at that point, it's like, I'm sorry, but your your chances of upward mobility are pretty much gone or very very much diminished.
Well, community matters, right, context matters. We know that in so you know, take an example of you find an apartment, you've been living there safe for five years. Well, if you've lived anywhere for the last five years, your rent has probably went from twelve hundred to two thousand dollars over the last five years. I don't care where you live. So if your and of course your income hasn't matched that increase, and so one way you would try to
manage that is you'd move to a less expensive rental unit. Well, if where you can live is limited, oftentimes you're stuck. You don't have the option to try to find a different rental unit that would maybe cost less. And so that means because you're paying this exorbit rent to your point you can't maybe stay on top of some of your other bills, you can increase your credit score and ultimately put yourself in a position to purchase a property.
Or in a case like mine, I had to send my daughter to a private school, so our family had to make sacrifices. I had to refrain from contributing to my retirement account and put a god awful expensive private school bill, but I had no choice, right, and so
on so many levels. If you don't have the ability to choose where you live based on market values and measures of risk, but instead just someone's perceived risk of who you are because of a past conviction, you're just not going to be able to access to communities that are going to best help you. Ribe in a broader context.
You know, Miles mentioned the ways that chattel slavery kind of morphs into different institutions in the modern world, and you know, we've specifically talked a lot about it morphing into you know, the carceral human caging system. I just
want to because you know you're being targeted. You know, in the recent past, you spent time in prison and got out and like really rebuilt your life in a way that feels like, you know, the odds were stacked against you so much, and that like just I think having a better idea of like what you were able to do helped helps just like kind of really drive home how this specific amendment is a total fuck you
to people and just like complete, wildly unjust. But can you talk about just like how you built yourself coming out of prison.
Yeah, you know, I've been incredibly fortunate even when I was behind bars. Actually, my journey to a better life started behind bars. I had this chance encounter with a guy who was in the Wisconsin prison system for defrauding the Kohlder Corporation. And so you should never defraud anyone, but you sure the hell don't want to defraud a company that has a town named after it. So you know, this guy brilliant, you know, master's degree in engineering from
the Northeast. So he's into a Wisconsin prison system with me, and he taught me how to program computers. And so when I came home, was very fortunate, you know, was able to work my way into some development roles and Fortune five hundred companies. You know, I've worked on three continents. I've built software in India, in Africa. I had a fellowship from Google. I served as president of Wisconsin's largest trade association. I had a full scholarship to Princeton University
for graduate school. You don't just really have been incredibly fortunate and have done so many things that tells you who I am today. All of those things I just noted tell you more about me today than my conviction from when I was eighteen years old.
Yeah sure, yeah, sure, right, And because your story is far from the norm, it's you know, like quite an exceptional case, like that is not the norm for people re entering after being incarcerated, Like and if it's that difficult for you, that's exactly right, someone who can point to all these bona fides like I've been educated in the IVY League, I've been working like very consistent jobs, I've been successful, that the chances for anyone else who
go back to reduced opportunity, lack of opportunity and don't have that kind of upper mobility, then it truly just does become this thing like, well, now you're back in the neighborhood where you were doing dirt and your only
options are to do dirt. And I think there's also like even when we look at when we have these conversations, we still don't we're still not able to look at things like drug dealing as as a form of like lack of financial recourse for people like no one is dealing drugs because they're like, you know what, I always wanted to deal drugs, you know what I mean, like just something I wanted to do.
I had the offer from Google. And also.
I was like, no, man, the block needs me. I wanted to be one of them boys, you know what I mean, that one of these Google people. But you know, like that, we don't actually we never look at sort of things like survival crime too in a certain context and be able to extend empathy in those situations. Obviously violent crime can be a completely different thing. But when you look at things like this, like most people, especially people who have dabbled in it, they have very similar
stories of my back was to a wall. If I just move this thing from point A to point B, or I let somebody stat something at my house and then I somehow a bust happened and it completely ruined my life. That these people aren't coming at it from being wanting having some kind of like sociopathic desire to to break the law.
That's a great point. That's that's that's a great point. And all of that nuance is missed, right, That's that's that's the most frustrating piece of this. And you know what keeps me motivated every day is because this has been a slog. I mean, changing federal legislation is a slog, right, And what keeps me motivated is that there are literally tens of thousands of people right now in this country who were in my situation but didn't have an alternative
option for their family, right. You know that that's just wrong, and that's honestly what keeps me motivated every day to get this over the finish line.
Yeah, all right, well we should take one more break and we'll come back, and we're back, and so, you know, this is one way that I feel like redlining is still kind of that it's like a neo redlining that's still happening today. We've talked, like there's been reporting in the past decades about you know, real estate agents sort of being an informal barrier to you know, black families moving into certain parts of towns, engaging informally and discriminatory practices.
But what have you seen how what are the other ways that you see kind of of redlining still upheld even though it's technically illegal.
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And I have a buddy who's very supportive of this work that I'm doing. But he he leads the National Association of Real Estate Brokers and it's basically like the trade association for Black realtors, and he leads the Milwaukee chapter, and you know, I was talking to him about this work guy I'm doing, and he said, you know, I remember when I got out of prison. How you know I would have to pay extra fees if I wanted to rent an apartment
solely because of a past conviction. And that was one way to kind of it was a barrier for him because he'd have to put up like two times the security deposit, and he didn't have that type of money, so that particular apartment wouldn't be available to him. Or you know, he submitted an offer when he became a
real estate investor. You know, he submitted an offer to a you know, well to do area, and with everyone's information public and online, you know, he noticed several times he just did not get a response from the seller about his offer, and two weeks later there's an accepted
offer on the property. So I mean, it's it's an unnecessary tool that lends itself to abuse, either by people who really have ill intentions or just people who are who are clueless and honestly are unwittingly perpetuating you know, these very systemic disadvantage that disadvantages that we've been talking about.
What's kind of been the biggest hurdle in terms of because I know, like you know, I've worked in politics, and on the state level, there's things like ballot initiatives you can do to try and change laws and regulations and things like that, but like doing it on a federal level, what's been I mean, aside from trying to do away with something that has been like the cause of so much pain for people but is seen as a norm, what's kind of been like the hardest sort
of well, the hardest part about the process in terms of trying to get people to understand like this isn't necessary and there's something actually need to move past because it's causing soone's damage.
Yeah, well, I think it's just getting visibility on this issue. And that's why I'm so appreciative of you guys for highlighting this issue on your platform, because here's the reality. You'll never convince me that if the general public was aware that current housing policy in this country, at least part of it is being directed by someone like strom Thurman and these are the outcomes of this housing policy, that folks would just.
Be like, yeah, that makes sense, let's.
Keep that in place, right, we're good here, exactly no reason to reform that. And so it's really this has been going on for almost forty years because of who it is impacts, right, it impacts the most vulnerable people, and you said it yourself. My experience is an outlier. And so they just happen to, quite frankly, do it to the wrong person who's prepared to go all in on this shit and do whatever it takes to change
this legislation. But if for the average person who can invest this type of time and resources to do this stuff, and so's it just becomes the status quo. And so the biggest challenge has been raising the visibility of this issue so that folks understand why they can care. Because I guarantee you the folks who are listening to this
right now, they're not going to be for it. And so I encourage them to reach out to me and figure out how can they support this effort to get their legislators to do something and repeal this useless amendment.
No, yeah, I think I think a lot of listeners are probably definitely sympathetic towards that, no doubt and use of what would you say, you know, just to for something for people to keep in mind when they hear about because I think, like you know, when people hear about someone who is in prison is going to move in you know, right, we have this sort of like sort of inbuilt response that because I like you. Sadly, even though we pretend our carcial system is about like
rehabilitation or anything, it really isn't. It's just it's like a revolving door. What do you think? What what are sort of the obstacles that you challenge people to sort of challenge their own thinking when think like when being confronted in a situation like this, or someone says, oh, I couldn't rent to this person they were a drug dealer, and then they say, oh, well, good good, that's that's good.
You good good, you stopped that from happening. What sort of the shift that you feel people need to make and able to sort of look at the world with a bit of a more equitable lens in this in this context.
Well, someone who would say something like that, I don't know what the hell I would say to that person, but but I would say that, look, this criminal legal system has grown exponentially, and so it's hard to find somebody who doesn't have some type of tangential connection to the system. And I think that's you know, as people have that connection, I think they develop the empathy. You'll never convince me you have to enforce the Thermin Amendment
to make money. That's bullshit. And I'll call it as it is because I know that's not true. And so I mean, folks have to just because you can do it. I mean, this is the problem. This is exactly what happens. You're a landlord. You go to your attorney and say, hey, look, I need to develop my screen screening criteria and I don't want to run a foul of the Fair Housing Act, right that. This is what happens. Your attorney is going to do their job and they're going to say, Okay,
you can legally do these things. You can deny all applications with a drug distribution conviction. Okay, boom, let's do that, and for all these other criminal classifications, this is what you need to do. Okay, fine, Right, So as long as this is legal, this is going to be a problem. And that is why we have to repeal the Thermin Amendment in one hundred and eighteenth Congress.
M Yeah, Actually, that's the best place to leave it. Let's just leave it done, all right.
Well, thank you so much, YUSUF doll for joining us and talking about your work. Where can people find you? Follow you all that good stuff and learn more about how to help you in your fight to overturn the Thermon Amendment.
Yeah, so I'm on Twitter, Instagram, USUF dial, and I have a website thermin amendment dot org. Again, thermin amendment dot org. You can connect with me on that platform as well.
And that's th h U R M O N D amendment not like Uma Thurman or Thurmon months and use of doll is y U s U F D A h L.
Yes, Okay, you're looking. Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying work of media that I've been in be a tweet? It can be well okay, okay, I have to put it out there. So we just started binge while watching a ninety Day Fiance. Yeah, yeah, the ninety days before though. I think it's a different program than my daughter. I only watch this stuff because of my daughter. She's a total like trash reality TV first.
And so I get there.
Anyways, that stuff is pretty hilarious. So I'm into that right now.
Amazing, perfect answer.
Miles, where can people find you and what is the work media you've been?
You can find me at Miles of Gray wherever they got the at symbol. You can also find Jack and I on our basketball podcast with the NBA called Miles and Jack on Mad Boosti's and also you can find me on my ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty Day Fiance with Sophia Alexandra because you know what some of us like to play in the trash too. You know, some of us were of the trash and I love
it with all my being. And yeah, that's where you can find me in the pod space thing of work in media, like this Korean reality show Physical one hundred is back with a new season on Netflix, and again as someone who is always wowed by people who have that kind of discipline with their fitness, I'm there's just no short shortage of like just moments when I watch it show, I'm like, I could, I would know, I'm just not gonna do that, but I like to watch
other people suffer and use their big muscular bodies and doing stuff. So anyway, yeah, that's what I'm watching Physical one hundred amazing.
You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien tweet I've been enjoying Noah garfin Gold tweeted, you have to eat so many vegetables or you will die. That's okay. Everyone likes potatoes. Oh yeah, there is one that doesn't count and it is potatoes. And then Troy Johnson underscore. Troy Johnson on Twitter tweeted, the black jelly bean is the best bean made of corn syrup, yak ormeister, eyeshadow, and cure songs. Flavor stays in your mouth until Jesus
comes back. Supreme. You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist. Where at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram, we have a Facebook fan page and a website daily zeikeis dot com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode, as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do you think people might enjoy? Yes?
A song, Yes, a song. This track just I just want to play a little bit of you know, like some psych indie rock. This is crumb ce U r NB and their new track A Mama, A m A m A.
You guessed it.
Right, and I just like the you know it just it just got again. When I listened to like indie rock, the rhythm sections gotta be on point. I gotta like what the drummer's doing, I gotta like what the basis is doing, and I like what they're doing on this track. So this is a A Mama by Crumb.
All right, we will link off to that in the footnotes. The Daily Zi is the production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio Wrap Apple podcast. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows, that is gonna do it for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you what is trend thing and we'll talk to you all then Bye bye bye yeah