Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three thirty four, episode two of SAPE production of My Heart Radio. Is that one of the three stooges back there?
It was all three of them? Actually, Oh wow, he got all three?
Yeah? Good, it's great to have them here. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into American share consciousness. And it is Tuesday, April sixteenth, twenty twenty four. My name is Jack O'Brien. Akay, I'm a chimp, I'm a human? Why not both? That's not proven. I'm a simian and man, I do not understand what the hell I must scream. I'm trapped somewhere between. Oh god, I'd
really like it any other way. Ay. That is courtesy of case Aiken about my you know the story we did last week that I guess it was courtesy of Chris Crofton brought us the Tale of the Humans, and I just thought, what better day for me to sing a song about the most anti scientific story we've covered in recent memory than on one of our expert episodes when we have an actual scientist with us.
Well, they're endangered. There would be humansies everywhere if there wasn't for clim super climate, yet their natural habitat has been completely and.
We will talk about that with our He doesn't know, but that's gonna be the majority of the episode. It's just how does this affect Humansies thrilled to be joined in the second seat today by the co host with the mo host, a brilliant comedian, writer, actor, the hilarious, the chaotic, the riding of recumbent bike in short shorts.
Blake Wexland.
This is Blake Akay. When zeitgeist gets that feeling, it wants wectual healing, wectual healing.
Oh Jack, well.
No, guys, feel so fine. You just gotctually assaulted. Jack, I think really know is what just happened? Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you for that lectual healing.
Yeah.
Oh it's off of Marvin Gaye's sexual healing.
Oh got I gotta got it. Okay, now now it's clear to me. Yeah, Blake, it's what what with a with an intro? This dumb? It's really like, we need to bring in our expert guest as soon as possible, because otherwise I might shrivel up and blow away in a cloud of dust. We're thrilled to be joined in our third seat by an academic and industry leader in fighting climate change. He's currently director of the UNSW Earth and Sustainability Science Research Center and director of the UNSW
CRONOS fourteen Carbon Cycle Facility. But much more impressibly, he's also a podcast host. His show is called Unfucking the Future. He is called Chris Turner.
Joh really, I'm not gonna sing. No one needs to hear that, So I'll.
Go to just I mean, yeah, you have people who do that for you. On your show Unfucking Future. We were saying has some of some of the most catchy little interludes were on Fucking the Future, Blake, I thought you were gonna join me and harmonize with me.
I was just sometimes you're in awe of what you're watching, you know what I mean. You just want to sit back and enjoy it yourself. You know, life's hard enough. Let me take some of these treats.
Yes, I was also telling you guys before we started that I played that your podcast and like the word the word fuck multiple times for my eight year old by accident yesterday as I was kind of listening through getting ready to talk to you, and it was also the day that he happened to let me know that he knew the word fuck for the first time we were doing we were doing a crossword puzzle and the clue was like what the blank and like softened version of
some softened version would be heck. And he was like, so is that? He he sit in the backseat, I'm driving and we do crossward puzzles together. He's like, would it be fun? Fuck? Do you think it's fuck? Dad? Like you you're turning eight in a couple of weeks, Like why do you?
Why do you?
But it's like it's cute because you didn't even think it was like a bad thing to ask. He was like that they talk about that sometimes at school. Fuck is it?
Maybe?
Fuck? So he didn't realize.
Yeah, Australia, it's the biggest complaint I've got. It's not the language on the show. It's everyone really is.
How is tomorrow? By the way, we haven't we we have tomorrow?
Yeah, it's just before five o'c Tuesday, and it's looking pretty good. We're still here.
Hell yeah, I can't wait.
I can't wait. It is like four a m. Free So, thank you so much for joining us at such an odd time. We really appreciate it. No, no, no need.
It's scary, so good, so good, And Chris, you could probably already feel the jockeying. So I'm just gonna put it right out there. When we announced, when we told Blake we were going to have an expert guest on, he said, I'm going to take the lead on this one, and has just been sending me past aggressive text messages all morning saying stay out of my way. So just so you know, there's gonna be, there's gonna be.
Yeah, yeah, So what's Australia like? These are hard questions. What's going on down there Australia?
What's that?
Yeah? What's that like? That's probably one of the most said for questions I ever had.
Thank you so much. You hear that.
Jack.
That's why you should shut up, Jack and I should talk. Your potty mouth child is fucking the future. That's what's happening. That's what this podcast should be called.
Oh my god, he's such a polluter.
He is.
He drives a hummer at a school every day.
Yeah, he's such a wonderful story. I feel my work here is done. Actually, you have all.
Right, Chris, we are going to talk about your area of expertise, unfucking the future, climate change, how we talk about it, how we make sense of the world in a world that is rapidly heating and escalating towards climate disaster and not doing a great job always tangling with that, coming to grips with that. But before we get into that stuff, we do like to get to know our expert guests a little bit better and ask you, what is something from your search history.
Oh, I'm a big fan of the TV show What We Do in the Shadows. Yeah, Climate One, Yeah, the full Functional Vampires, HM, Bumbling food Stats, An Island. Well, I'm a complete fan of Indoctrinate the Kids, and yeah, the six series has just been announced but sadly also the last season, but it's coming. I can't wait to see if Matt Berry just has me stitches all the time. That is dark que just brilliant, very very fun, very wrong, very wrong.
That was the first Matt Berry. Like, that was my first Matt Berry. I didn't get into all the other like British shows that everyone talks about him being incredible in and you know, every few I'm like, if it's good enough, they'll make an American version. Guy no, that's not true. But I just had missed him up to this point, and well, Jack, I was.
Just thinking about your son, you know. I mean I think he's advancing quite low. You should watch Yeah, you know, I mean think of that.
And also has an English accent for some reason, weirdly.
Yeah, yeah, right, that's very strange. Talks exactly like Matt Berry.
I love that show. It's such a good show. Like Matt, Matt Berry is one of those people where when he pops up on screen or equal you just hear his voice, you immediately light up because you know, oh, this person's automatic. He's going to be so funny. Were just watched a fallout.
Isn't it. Yeah, it's just fantastic. But it's very dark carried to again, but you just start smiling exactly.
Yeah, incredible.
What is something you think is underunderrated?
Underrated? I think I think he's actually eating plant based foods. Would you believe it? About climate change? And that's something that I just think is mind blowing on how it can have a really positive effect on the climate crisis. And it's something that I think most of us just first grown up with traditional meat diets, actually eating mostly plant based food. Maggie Beds Is on the show. We'll
talk about that a little bit later. It's been a bit big advocate for years and it makes a big difference. It makes a huge difference. So, yeah, if people are looking for one solution, that's probably the one of my climt that's the one that's probably the one. If you're gonna do anything, that's.
Ah we I'm going to cross that question off my list.
You've answered that when you say plant based, yeah, you're talking.
You can't say that. You can't say vegan.
Is Yeah, the plant based is like is like a wedge salad with bacon sprinkled on it before I tuck into my steak, right, that's like, yeah, there's a plant in there, and then like there's a little partially on top of my steak. I don't know why. That's just like turned into man cow.
You see, you're halfway there, right, Yeah, just a hunk of blue cheese right with the mold is technically a plant. The dumbest person in the world of that. What do you think is the biggest barrier to entry for a plant based diet? Would you say? Is it because it's not really availability anymore? Is it just Nah, No, I.
Think actually for a lot of us, it's especially in the West, it's uh, it's just prett and you go out for meals and it's expected you ever meet you know, or you for dinner with people, and people kind of expected. So I think that's probably one of the biggest things. It's just acceptance. And I don't think the word vegan. I mean, it's like a lot of these things, right.
You get people who have got really extreme views on both ends of a spectrum, and sometimes very hard line plant eaters can get right hard line, and that's tough as well. You know, you're living a pure life or nothing at all, and that's tough for a lot of people to sort of move into. So just ignore those just do what you can do.
Yeah, I will say that I've had more and more tofu as I've gotten older and more conscious of the importance of eating a plant based and the things that good chefs and you know, people who've been eating tofu for a while do with tofu is such an insult to or it's so good compared to like what I was eating before, when it is just like hunks of like kind of half cooked tofu it was like, I'm like, was the energy industry, Like, was the fossil fuel industry
paying people to just make the worst tasting tofu in the world when I was growing up, because it was like, so they like weren't trying at all. They're just like no, I mean, okay.
I've got a big Britain of the in the eighties and salads were just like this miserable so and iceburg lettuce and some shredded carrot. I mean, honestly, it was like rationing was still going on now. These amazing bals my my nand bless her. When she was alive, we had this on who was a vegetarian and apparently in the sixties all they could make for was stuffed tomatoes. That was it. Whenever came out, I had no idea
what to give it. Let's just give us stuff tomato, maybe some cat yeah, yes, anyway, I mean yeah, big, big, big, big difference. Yeah, huge improvement and even go low me. You can still eat me if you need to, but go low, you know, defeat everything.
The things that Korean stews do with tofu, it's one of one of the most delicious.
And it's Korean people named Stuart Korean.
Yes, right, right, any Korean named stew You can just reach out and they'll look it up for you. No, no, no, Blake, come on, huh, come on man, this is a serious. This is an expert episode. I told you ahead, expert episode. Get your head out of the Stuart puns.
It is.
I've I've heard of it. I'm just going to breeze past that because I don't take your comments seriously. But I have heard it put in a good way of people who've had like it sounds funny, almost like it's an abstract thought. Success converting to veganism or eating like a plant based diet is using things as just us,
like delivery devices. Almost where sauce is generally the best part of a meal, or that's where you're often getting the most taste out of where it's a very small difference between a piece of chicken unsauced, unseasoned versus you know, like a tofu or a plant based item. So I think it's less difficult than it seems to.
But I've never heard that. But that's that's fantastic.
You can have it.
That's all yours, the thing I stole from someone else. You could have.
I mean, that's that's creativity, right.
Yes, Chris, what's you think is over overrated?
Overrated? Oh gosh in the climate space, I think denial, denial is massive, is not going to help us.
So higher line of questions.
It's amazing, right, we learn about this for a couple of centuries, and yeah, you still get people, I'll pay of a flat efforts in the fake moon landings and they they they get more vocal again, which is weird, which is very weird. But I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit later. Yeah, it's not gonna help us.
It almost feels like like there's this point in your show where you play this Maggie Thatcher I call her mag March March that you play this Margaret Thatcher speech where she is talking about like how we need to take care of the world and like you know, kind of modern ish messaging around climate change and like what you know, what it is to be responsible citizen of earth, which is not in line. You know, I would have assumed that she would have been, you know, drill baby, drill type, you.
Know, because not very iron of her, right, Yes, But then.
You point out, first of all, there's been more carbon pumped into the atmosphere since she gave that speech than in all of the history before. But it kind of made me one or like, were we more progressive on climate change before, like at the very start, because once once we realized, once people started to realize what was actually happening, the big money started pushing back, like have we actually lost ground since the beginning, or like in
terms of just the national mind share. It was just so wild for me to hear Margaret Thatcher like give a speech where she was just like, yeah, we I mean, global warming is real, and then yeah, fifteen years later the US President is like changing the word to be less alarming.
Yeah, I know, it's amazing. I mean that was when I was growing up, when I was a teenager, Yeah, was Prime minister, and it was just this amazing time. You had just think called the Brundon Report from the UN United Nations talking about we've got major problems on the planet. You have these big summits discovery I was own Hall, and then you have Margaret Fatcher coming out
saying we've got a serious problem. And she was so far ahead of a curve and post a child of the right wing right and here's someone saying.
Yeah, she was like the Reagan of the UK.
Yeah, and but I think also a recognition that there's going to be no economy, no life that we know it if we carry on this way. So ultimately it's self defeating. So yeah, she was well ahead of her time, and it's always surprising when people didn't realize that. And it was a massive difference. So it's felt like this a massive wave. We're going to do it, We're going to do it. And then as you say, money came in, big money came in, and there's this rearguard action. I
wouldn't say we've gone backwards. I think most I think publicly we're far beyond that. But of a technology now and actually the solutions, yeah, it's light years away. I mean, we've got the solutions now. We've just got to we're got to just get on with doing it now and just.
Get around the money, like the like.
And that's one of the big challenges. And yeah, we'll chat, but how do you incentivize it? How do you make it really happen? But listeners, it's it's it's up to us, it's up to you. You're a consumer with the people so we're going to make a difference and we can do Yeah.
Now I don't like the sound of that. That sounds hard, So.
You put it in the easiest way. Yeah. Sorry, I'm doing things while listening to this podcast, and even merely listening is a fucking task. It's a lot of work Jesus that I'm trying to take and you take, and you take, uh it is that must be incredibly frustrating for you too, because I've I've listened to your podcast is amazing. I like love it's what I was listening to it before you join, Like it's almost like seeing
a celebrity like and you are. You are a celebrity, but you are very positive and I think a lot or let me say like optimistic. I think is well like realistically optimistic and giving action items, which I really appreciate about the podcast and I do. Getting back to the Thatcher of it all, we were shocked to hear that Margaret Thatcher was so progressive, I guess you would say on this issue because of her politics, and it's it shouldn't be a political issue like many issues you
know like this, like why has this been politicized? But to your point, if it the it's like here at least, you know, like this conservative side of everything, like is often doing things to stop progress on the like on the climate front. But to your point, how would you ay, how frustrating is it to speak to something that shouldn't be politicized, that is, and then be what would you
say to someone who's more conservative on the issue. Would you point to the fact that, like, hey, there's going to be no business if we don't solve this, Like what would your response to that be?
And if you could do it in the manner of a wrestler, a professional wrestler just addressing the camera, hyme, was you going to ask me to sing? Actually, don't worry. I think we're done.
Yeah, I know. It's I grew up in the UK and I think one of the bonkers things actually living in Australias are saying the fact that it's politicized is insane. It really is, because actually in the UK it's pretty simil I mean, you've got extreme views both ends, but actually arguably the right wing conservatives have actually done as much, if not more, on the green environmental arenas than the left. So it's you know, it's it's on both sides. It's
actually very balanced. So that's weird when you go in Australia, US you have these particulars. I mean, people have got views, but I think it's one of these things where they it's all part of your belief systems and where you see your value and where you place yourself the world. And I think that can be a challenge and I think actually scientists zero one zer one one zero, it's very much visited data and you should just get on
with it and accept it. And the human side and we sort of COVID right you actually there's another element. You can come up with a vaccine, but actually getting it in the arms another part. And I think for a lot of us in the science community, we always just thought I'll just find that last bit of truth, that last bit of evidence that I'll actually convince people.
And I think for me, COVID was a classic example where you will die or you could die if you don't get his vaccine, and people still said no, yeah, and it was like wow, okay, so they.
Were like that you will die, how about that like through a ventilator. Yeah, You're like, well, what.
So when you're started to talk about things where it's a bit of a longer time scale, then that's a real challenge. So yeah, but I think you know, the thing I fall back on is there is huge scientific consensus on this. I mean for a group of people, anyone who's listening, who knows a scientist, they will argue with anyone. I mean, that's how you run promoted. That's where you find, you get your big research paper, your
nerd out, you get your promotion. And the fact when you're starting to talk about ninety seven plus percent or ninety nine percent of all scientists saying this is real and we've got to do something about it, I think just speaks volumes. That speaks volumes and often just even sharing that information with people. People are listening to realize it's not this classic thing of oh there's a different view, Oh maybe it's not true. You know, we used to
get interviewed, even until that recently. You get interviewed, if we're doing a call with you on a TV show, you'll probably have some extreme skeptic or climate contrarian who would argue, usually in a really good suit, I don't really have good suits. Really in a good suit, very slick and actually just saying oh there's a different view, and everyone would say, well there's one person who says
it is one that doesn't maybe it's not real. I don't have to worry about it, or you know Jack saying or I was like a lot of work client.
I never said that.
I never remember you said that.
You do it all not deny everything.
Into your including the climate from Jack, but like if you because you're right, because it's not a one to one it's a false representation of the numbers, where what they should have is ninety seven scientists like you on and three as the counterpoint, like you said, it would be more representative of actually how the scientific yeah field sees it. That's interesting.
Yeah, all right, let's let's take a quick break and we're gonna come back. We're gonna dig more into this because it is a more hopeful picture of climate than I think I initially had my brain, you know, just being like this big thing is looming and oil company is main player, and they are lying and not going to let us do anything. And there are a lot of people doing a lot of interesting stuff. So we'll
be right back and we're back. So, Chris, you've been studying this for thirty years kind of the meat of the period where it's gone from being a fringe subject on people's minds to a subject that's on people's minds and that everyone agrees should be like the biggest story. It feels like, but how has like you talked about just like early days of climate in your career versus today, Like what about that contrast makes you hopeful or otherwise?
Yeah, Now we've known for such a long time. You know, it was an amazing lady back in the eighteen fifties, Unice Foot. She was American, and she was a very early scientist area who basically discovered the greenhouse effecting and climate change. Didn't call it christis or change at the time, but she realized actually pumping walls here to carbon dark
side in the atmosphere cause is heating. So we've known about it since the eighteen fifties, and so by the time, you know, in the nineteen eighties or so, we're pretty clear. You know that use of dirty energy has created this heat trapping pollution and it's basically adding a blanket around the earth and is causing irreversible heating. So we've known that since the eighties and some companies, which fossil fuel
companies like x On Mobile. I actually had some of the best scientists working in it in the seventies and they knew back then, so it's been a bit of a frustration, but at the same time sort of you're always trying to engage with people to say, look, this is what the science is showing us, and this is looking really bad, and what we're going to do about it, and if we move quite quickly it would be a relatively easier transition. But now we are here, we are
in the twenty twenties having the same conversation. My kids are now older than when I was first active in this area, and where we're still trying to get carbon ducts and other greenhouse gas emissions down, you know, a pollution out of the air. So it's been frustrating, but at the same time, I think as a far greater engagement this the last couple of years, particularly for those of us in the Norman hemisphere and the Western world
are becoming even more aware of it. So I think there's a real energy and people want to do something, and that was really the motivation behind the show, to be honest, because as a climate scientists. Most people. I mean, I still get for crazy emails and I no doubt I'll get a load more after this this call. But it was one of those things where.
Man, and I'm sorry you wat wasps nest here.
And it's just one of the moost things where most people will ask me, what can I do. I think that's the problem we've often had, is that here's a science. Now someone else go and sort it out. What we're trying to do as scientists who actually work with government, public, actually industry, business, let's get this. These ideas deployed and
they are happening. It is super super positive just how much we're seeing these technologies deploy more and more renewable energy sources around the world, not just in the West. So you know, there's a lot of good news out there, but it's it's also hearing for people what they can do individually.
That's the idea we talked before about on the show, about how something you just made reference to, like the Excellon knowing about this, like doing some of the most advanced research into climate change decades before. I think most people even knew it was the thing, like they were lying about it before we even knew there wasn't it to lie about, and so I feel like it's such
a clear villain like origin story. I just wonder, like how you think about Like one of the things I like about your podcast, like a lot of a lot of the times when I'm hearing these stories, like hearing the X on mobile story and you know, them discovering that there's a problem and then being like, so how do we how do we frame this from a marketing perspective? You know, we don't get names. We get big corporations, and then those are hard to like kind of grab
on to. But there's a couple real villains on your podcast, like Fred Singer.
Ah, yes, yeah, piece of work. I will say thank.
You, yeah for those Yeah, amazingly completely outrageous characters who are out there pushing this misinformation disinformation. They're basically creating confusion, and the whole thing has been I mean, this is a classic thing that you and you can see it on the whole other public debase. If you really want to just cause confusion, you just say things aren't really that certain. You know, we know, we know that if you didn't have Colvin docs on the Atmosphere and other
Green ass gas the planet. We go about mind, that's fifty degrees and.
That Chris, isn't it better than that?
I think it sounds.
Cold to me. It sounds a little chilly a little bit.
It's good, right, I think we all agree a little bits good. And the simple thing is you add more to the atmosphere, more pollution, ill warm things up, and
then he thinks up. But when it's some of these characters like Fred Seeinger, this was back in the eighties, you know, creating these arguments for some of the best known scientists actually in the space and then actually working with him towards the end of their lives and basically casting doubt on their work just introduces that certainty with the public that, oh, maybe even the experts aren't sure, just at a time when you've got this real head
of steam that actually they're going to make a difference. I mean, ex on Mobile. One of my favorite things that I've been watching online at the moment is a great Adam McKay, the director. It's just incredibly funny, clever Matt.
Adam McKay did the Netflix movie Don't Look Up. He started a new sort of satirical comedy channel called Yellow Dots Studios and with Rain Wilson, they've done this spoof on Game of Thrones called a Tale of Fire and Ice, and you know, it's the scene where they drag out via undead in a box, you know, in front of all the main characters, John Snow and all the others, and instead of the undead is Rain Wilson dressed up as a scientist, all chained up, and this fantastic thing
about the House of ex on mobile as being the enemy. And if people haven't watched it's on YouTube. It's absolutely brilliant, absolutely brilliant. But is that Yeah, there's some great villains in this story. And you know, when I used teaching about climate change, one of the first things I used to show was actually shared the students of this report
back from the seventies. There's lots of them that have been released since or been leaked, and it shows back in the seventies, some of the best scientists are pretty much on the money, back in the nineteen seventies and seeing students get so cross, so cross, and basically when I was born and you it's outrageous, absolute us and they still to come down st claiming, oh it's too expensive.
Now we need to stick with fossil fuel. That's the future. Yeah, it's just incredible they're still being given their time, some of these characters.
Fred Singer, by the way, for listeners, we we actually recently did a story about lunchables, the public health disaster that is Oscar Myers started as Oscar Myers, but it's like a craft food prepackaged lunch that was given to us by craft food once the tobacco industry took over the food industry and like they were like, all right, one thing, we know how to get people addicted in a way that will make us money and kill them.
Like that's and so I just bring it up here because Fred Singer's background thing that prepared him to be like one of the fossil fuel industries like go to people for so in confusion. His background was so in confusion about the health effects of smoking. Yeah, amazing, so wild that that was just this like original sin where all these professional liars were like watching each other being like, hey we should draft that guy. Look at the talent on that ad campaign.
I mean he has all he can shoot, he can dribble.
Can you just need people out that.
Yeah, exactly, but like because you were taught. I was
listening to your episode. I think it was the Blue Carbon episode, yes, Chris, and it was if we're talking like making this like a cinematic thing where we have the villains, the villains seem like very clearly defined, where it's almost like tragically sad and sweet that the the protagonists, the people, the heroes of this worry can actually be from that environment, like the ocean or actually natural resources, which is the things that we're actively destroying are the
things that can actually help us as well, which is so you know, like kind of sad but kind of sweet also. But yeah, I thought that was a really really interesting episode where I've always thought, oh, it's like we need to do this. We need like human beings need to reverse so many of our habits, which we do. And also we you know, your guests was saying we can't do it without help from the environment. Also the environment.
That's that's that's the amazing San Juan who's in Conservation International, and yeah, the whole idea of blue Carbon is, yeah, basically using the oceans. And he has this lovely quote he says, look, if I was king of the world for just one day, I protect the mangrove forests, which of these incredible trees that live on the coastal plains, and they pump down so much carbon into out of the atmosphere into the ground there. I mean, it's it's
multiple times more than tropical rainfall. These things are huge. And as you say, we go and clearing them and under the guys that you get a nice view. It's just I'm clearing for a whole load of problems results as a as a result.
I'm a proponent personally of condos, personal condos with good views of man. Yeah, I'm so. I mean, I guess you could convince me otherwise, but that's just where I'm at. We'll just put him in the mangroves, right, Yeah, how are we going to appreciate the mangroves if we don't have giant condos there? Thank you for the question, John, problem solved a point.
I think the really important thing with with with something like as big and there's an enormous as climate crisis is you could go really dark really quickly. You could go back and there's a huge amount of challenges massive But the problem is if you just give that message of despair, nothing will happen. You know, we need to get people motivated. And there's a lot of great stuff, as you say, but it's happening. Putting aside to condos, there's a lot of really good things that are happening.
So maybe we talk.
About the good stuff that are happening in the world of condos on another episode you can go ahead with.
Her contemporary housing.
Yeah, and you've gotta you've gotta get people hope and and actually show them which way we can actually make a big difference. And I think that's motivating, right.
Yeah, your podcast does that, which I like, you know, it's yeah, another reason why I connect with it.
Yes, you your podcast also, you know you have the Adam McKay episode about storytelling just again, and I think your instinct of like telling your students from day one like they have been lying to us all along, Like it does help when I hear the facts about okay, like here are the things you can do. You can like change your diet, you know, which I'm joking, Like, I one agree, there are things that we can all
do to help. But at the same time, the vast, vast majority of this damage has been caused by these companies, like these villains. I feel like there's something kind of focusing and simplifying about that that I wish was a little bit more. I don't know, maybe Adam McKay is going to make like the great film about just like the history of this, but I do feel like that we had we had the The Insider about the tobacco
industry that was like an Academy Award winning film. I'm I'm looking forward to the genre of movies to come about. They're like name names like podcast talks about. So I've probably said I don't know the phrase climate change a couple times at least since we started recording this episode. That phrase was invented by Republicans to downplay the problem of at like climate heating, like they change. They changed
the word from global warming to climate change. Like Frank Luntz, whose name I recognized from being like a Republican polster, was that was like his brain child. He was like, what if we just we just say climate change. You know, we're acknowledging that it's changing. Okay, don't I can see you getting mad. We're saying we admit it's changing for better or worse. Who's to say you know it's changing.
That's enough, Like that's the first step. We've admitted that, and this is a negotiation, like is kind of the energy that it has, and they fucking won. Like when you search New York Times dot com results for like global warming sixty six point six global heating like only one hundred. Total global warming is sixty six thousand, climate change is ninety seven thousand. It's like the phrase that won.
And it's just what Republicans wanted to make it seem less scary when they were talking about it, and they again, it's just a I don't want to feel hopeless. At the same time, I do want to acknowledge that we are the victim of a vast, long term, and highly successful campaign to lie to us about something before we even knew there was something to be lied to about. That is like very sophisticated, and I don't know, it just like makes it. It's like clarifying to me that like, yeah, okay,
there's this. We're in a battle with a lot of different people who are putting a lot of different thought into it. We are slowly making progress in that battle in a bunch of ways that we'll soon talk about but I just wanted to kind of hear your thoughts on that because I was certainly a victim of calling it climate change. I think I think that's kind of what I referred to it as until your show told me I shouldn't be.
Oh that's beautifully Puss. I'll definitely have you on the show next time.
But yeah, you're right.
I mean, it's the broken clocks right, twice a day. Yeah, his kids and left and right.
Tough crowd, right, you have to work with Jack, is that right?
Right?
Yeah, No, it's uh, it's one of those things where and change is good, right, So a perception is, oh, oh it's change, okay, and actually that recognition that change isn't good in this case, And actually there's a more there's a bigger issue. I mean, some people aren't comfortable with crisis, like calling it out of the same way people talked about global boiling. But that's another level up again. But you know, to get rid of global warming to
global heating, climate crisis, call it what it is. You know, we've got a major major problem here, and it's it's now in our face. This isn't something that's going to happen in twenty plus years or whatever is happening now and we've got to really turn things around. And basically, all this procrastination and delaying is going to cost us dearly, not just economically but personally, and people are dying as a result. So it's an enormous challenge moving forward. But
you know, misinformation, disinformation, that is a big problem. We've got that and a huge challenge. All this stuff is out there and people start isolating themselves, and I think that's probably one of the bigger challenges moving forward really is that actually they get into their own world and they start thinking that, oh, they've got their world's view sorted, and they find these bits of information and basically say, oh, it's not a problem, and they just hone in. That
is comforting, right, right. And I think one of the things where it starts to see a lot more now is actually getting out there as a community, getting to know your neighbors, working with people, realizing you're not on your right And I mean, the show is very much about what you can do, and that's not just individually, if that's collectively. And actually there's an awful lot of people out there who really want to do things and actually make a change, but you are right, you know.
At the same time, you're very aware that there's this a whole society is built around, and that's premise.
Here.
If you want fossil fuel, here is his petrol, his gas, whatever you want coal, it's all there, and there's nothing to see here because it's it's just one part of the mix and things have changed before, and that's not true anymore. You know, everyone knows that. You know. The consensus is we've got to we've got an existential threat, to be honest, and now we've got to sort it out. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean one of what we'll get into the lawsuit in Montana, one of the lead lawyers who you have on just kind of breaks it down and that's where that was very clean for me. It was like people don't need fossil fuels, like people need a way to heat their homes and get to work, which, like, the thing standing in our way is not our need for fossil fuels, it's the current structures of power and wealth creation that have been built up around fossil fuels kind of protecting themselves.
It's the default. Like that's the default. I'm gonna go get yas It's kind of similar with the vegan conversation we were having earlier, where you have to say I need to go to a vegan restaurant or a restaurant with like not just a restaurant, because a restaurant the default of restaurants is that, oh, it's going to be primarily like meat based. So that is really yeah, that's a really good point.
Yeah, But all right, so let's take a break, we'll come back. We'll talk about some of the solutions that you guys talk about in your show.
We'll be right back, and we'll be right back.
Thank you, Blake, and we will be right back. Yeah, and we are back, just like we said. You might not have believed it, but we are back. And so Chris, there's an episode. Well, let's talk about the Montana lawsuit first,
because that one is really exciting. A bunch of yeah, a bunch of young people got together sued the state of Montana and one for like basically there was something on the books because of like activists in the seventies who recognized that like pollution and you know that they needed environmental protections got it added to was it the state constitution, Like they got wording added those like you also you can't like pollute us all to death, thanks and just and so they were able to get this
group of young people together and sue the state of Montana and they won.
And like what, it's a story. It's like ato movie.
Truly, So what do you like, Well, tell me, like what you take away from that?
Yeah, no, I think it's it. And actually following off a little bit what you were saying, Jack about companies knowing that they were causing harm. It's this whole thing of what's going to happen in the legal system, right, So Montana is a fascinating one. This is Nate Bellinger who you're talking about, is one of the lawyers for a group called Our Children's Trust, and they've been fighting against a whole load of fossil field developments for some
years now. And basically he's got his lovely phrase. He talks about it being like a whack a mole. You know, someone's looking to put a or a finery or something or the drilling site, and they go to the courts and they try and fight it and then then maybe get it delayed or whatever, and then another one pops up, and then the one you've just got delayed comes back up again, and it's like he calls it whack a mole. Yeah, And so the problem is when you've got the sort
of individual you just can't find them all. There's just so many developments, right, And so they realized, and I'll come back to this in a moment, but there's a big federal court case at the moment called Juliana versus a Federal Government. And so actually there's a really good Netflix movie on that called You figalv on Netflix if people haven't seen it, it's just a really heartbreaking but
really insightful documentary about that court case that's still going on. Actually, But in the meantime, this case went forward in Montana, and basically it's both for Juliana, the federal court case and also this one in Montana went after the issues on the constitution and those are a lot hard to change. You can't get the government getting going in and just saying oh, I'll change the law now, so stop that problem's gone the way. It's really hard to do this.
And as you say, you know, back in the seventies they inserted this bid in for constitution about having a clean and healthful environment in Montana, so it's on the books, right, And basically, these amazing young people took the state to court with our Children's Trust and basically argued, hang on them minute, you're actually not considering climate change any of these developments. That's against the constitution. You're not creating a clean and health of environment. And the judge found in
their favors. This is back in June twenty twenty three, and it was an incredible court case because basically they realized actually legally they had to consider those fossil field developments and they won. And Claire Vases, who's one of the youth plaintiffs, was actually on the case as well, explaining some of the thinking and why she got involved and just completely inspirational people. But they won the case and it was upheld. So it's in the constitution and
they now have to do that. Yeah, the state has to look at fossil field developments now consider climate change.
Now a problem for the courtroom drama about this, And something that made my blood run a little bit cold is when it came time for the state to like present their case, they just kind of didn't. They like didn't present any testimony or any like really countered the case that was presented at all, and that scared me. I was like, okay, so like to your point about whack them all, almost pronounced it wakam like wakam ole whack them all, which plant bass based, and that's why
I mentioned it. Of course, the only protein that I take is from wakam ole.
It's true, but they like, I've got a guy bad restaurant.
It's not.
But it does feel like sometimes these court cases where whether it be you know, protecting people's bodily autonomy or it always feels like a little like you're you're you're just trying to plug a million holes in a damn like. It does feel a little bit like whack mule. And so I'm just wondering, like when they didn't present any contradictory evidence, I'm like, okay, are they just like, yeah, okay,
we'll get we'll get you next time. Obviously you have us beat here, or I guess there's this federal case that's happening right now. So I'm glad to hear that it wasn't like challenged in court in court and they're not just going to like overturn it.
But it was amazing, wasn't it. I mean, I think it was several days where the case was put forward and I think it was like a couple of hours reponse and the defense. It was almost hing But he reads some of the testimony. They basically the officers who were in charge of trying to protect UPUL the constitution didn't even know some of the basic things about what the UN climate reports were, what they were, what the issues were.
It was almost it was up Frank. It was just embarrassing that these people are charged with that task and just had been told basically not to worry about it and just weren't weren't aware of it. So I think ultimately it fell down because the state realized it didn't have a leg to stand on them this point. Yeah, amazing. So but the federal case, Yeah, that's that's still going forward. That's still going forward. It's still being considered. It's worth
watching a Netflix movie if people haven't seen it. It's quite incredible.
Yeah, And I mean the Biden administration is that the one that the Biden administration is fighting as well.
Kind of it started with Obama and then yeah, and now a Biden is fighting it.
Administrations are fighting against this attempt to you know, change things and hold these corporations accountable and just make it so that you can't pollute our children to death. Seems like pretty seems like it could be a political winner if we paid attention to it, But that doesn't seem to be a priority with the mainstream media. Like that's another thing that's just very frustrating is the way they tell these stories and like what they choose to pay
attention to can be pretty frustrated. You have an episode with Tom Steyer, who ran for president, is running for president.
He ran for president back in twenty twenty.
Twenty, okay, and yeah, and he's he's like a wealthy man who is like his thing is that you can use capitalism to solve these problems, and there's just I don't know, Like one of his investment ideas is if you have the technology for figuring out, like what the carbon footprint is of your sweater, and you're like holding you hold that technology so that people are able to keep track of that information, then like that's a trillion
dollar idea. I don't know. I think it makes sense in some ways, right, Like the economics and like capitalism is after all just like a system of incentives to get people to do what you want them to do. But I've also seen this like cycle of engagement and then exhaustion in the media and from corporations, where like if the economy goes down, capitalists like lose patients with
anything that is not one profit motivated. And you know, if like I saw a Wall Street Journal article in the past year where they were like, social responsibility is becoming a bad word on Wall Street because people are tired of it and have deemed it not profitable enough. And so I just I worry about like the forces of capital being so fickle that I do feel like we need that massive infusion from from the government right to kind of force the hand of capital a little bit.
What were your thoughts on that.
No, You're absolutely right, and I don't think Tom would say it's all just one one way only. You need both for sure. I mean, I mean, if you go back in the day, right and I just throw your slops out the window. You know why capacity guttering it was just super easy, didn't cost anything. Send you, send you, send your children down the coal mine. That was pretty awesome as well. Yeah, you know, keep it going free market, back in the in the good old days, back in the day like that for us.
It was like a earlier this month for me.
But go ahead, well, I'm sorry you were in a coal mine earlier this month.
No, no, no, I would never go down there. I can't. My kids, my kids as a child, Yeah, that's where I.
Learned the bad language, working with all these miners.
Kids us. And we don't do that anymore, right, I mean, gosh, it was a great thing back in oh back in the eighteen fifties, and there was a great thing called A Great Stink of London. I do another bad movie and it was amazing. You stopped a review. It wasn't a good one, Egbert, so great.
The Thames.
It was just for one time London was warm and hot, and all this waste was in the Thames and it just became its massive smell for two months and they called it a great steamer, nearly relocated out of Parliament, and up till that point, one just said, ah, it's too tough, this is too tough. Just keep throwing your
slops out. It'll be fine. And as a result of that, because it was so awful, they built this massive sewage system for London, which was just hundred thousands of kilometers of tunnels under London, which is thought to be impossible, and just everyone we still use them, right, It's just this amazing thing, and other countries had similar things around the world. That was government setting those barriers. What people like to talk about is barriers of the guardrails. Right,
this is where we're going. This is the limit that we think as a society is acceptable, and that's what we vote for. And then basically at Tom's actual I think really interesting premises under those settings right now, industry capitalism can help deliver about but you need those guardrails otherwise you're back to having kids in a coal mine and throwing the loops outside.
And I think the thing about the jack those are bad things. Those are bad things.
Just in terms of how they affect my family's income though not so bad. But I understand the arguments against them. Theoretically, I'm not sure. I haven't really listened to any, but yeah, okay.
You can go on, yes, And so that's that's what's happening. You know, this idea of actually recognizing in the law of it, actually when you go to buy your sweater or whatever what impact am I having when I'm buying that, you know what is happening, and when Tom talks about or how much carbon dark side is, which is at the moment, we've got no idea, right, it's really hard. A few progressive companies and while doing that, but we've
got no idea at all. And with that going into legislation now around the world, it's changing everything, is changing everything because people know, right, and then places like Europe are bringing in sort of taxes. So if you've port something into Europe, you've got to satisfy a minimum level. You've got to keep your emissions down, your pollution down, and so that's driving everyone to say, well, can I do it for less? Can I do less, use less carbon? Can I use less green ass gases? Can I cause
less pollution? And then you can show that you can you can sell your products. So I think it's this gradual transition as we're moving forward, but it's moving pretty quickly now that in that direction.
Yeah, it's almost a farm to table approach to like clothes, like yarn the body, where you want to know, okay, where was this made because made in you know, Portugal, made in Bangladesh, it's not specific in any way, and often it really gives you no information.
Yesoever, you just know the entire country that was making Yes, Like okay, I think you're good.
Ye told what made.
How to get there? Who made it? And it's interesting to hear you talk about like the great Stink and you know, to go not to be pessimistic, but it's like, Okay, it literally took an entire city to smell like shit in order for them to build that. And then that's the challenge, you know, the messaging with I know, with I want to get the phrase right with with the climate crisis is that people don't think it's as urgent as oh, it smells like shit outside and I don't
want to deal with it, you know. But then it's starting to get more you know, there are the like, oh, there's more floods now, there's more hurricanes now. And I thought there was an interesting episode you did. Your guests, I believe they were from Bangkok, and I think like there was like setting up like the pork and canals, and you're like trying to deal with the current situation, which is not great, while also building for the future. I think is an interesting dichotomy that's going on.
Yeah, no, I.
Mean, and I think that's the other side, right, because we've left it so long now climate is changing. It's actually happening. So it's not just a case of are we going to cut down carbon pollution or pollution full stop. We've also got to live with it. And half of us are more depending where you are in the world, live in cities, towns and yeah, culture gore and there's this amazing tai architect who's working. They've done this incredible park in Bangkok, but there's a whole lot of examples
around the world. But there's this lovely concept, this idea of sponginess. Cities have got levels of sponginess, and it's this idea that you know, if you can rather and just concrete a whole lot and there's all sorts of problems downstream. If you can build parks and wetlands and other things, you can absorb the brain when you have a big flooding, you can create shelter. Because the other
side is we got massive heat waves us. You know, you guys an awful summer last year, and we're gonna deal with that, and we're gonna make cities more livable for people in this in this changing climate, and that's a huge challenge. So and people will demand that very very quickly, and they already are now.
Yeah, I feel like the unhappiness of people in like we've talked before on the show that there's a lot of times like the unlike young people being unhappy right now is often blamed on like well, social media and they play too many video games, and it's wild to me that it's not more of a one to one. Yeah, Well, they're the first generation that has inherited an earth that is dying, where the generation and power is like actively kind of has been less and less but has been
like actively ignoring things. So I don't know it. Yeah, the idea that got that was raised because you spoke to that was sort of our instinct on this like covering the unhappiness. But you actually interviewed a forensic psychiatrist whose job is to figure out like why people are going through what they're going through in the modern world, and they landed on climate being a part of this modern epidemic of unhappiness. Right.
Yeah, it's a real challenge for us. That's the amazing lease of ancestry in fact, she was actually on the Montana court case as well, So incredible inspirational lady. And yes,
climate is heartbreaking. They actually a major major issue for so many people in there's global surveys that she's been involved in, and now the is showing this and I think that's a Now the point for a motivation for the show is actually providing hope for people, because it is so easy just to give up, and people are incredibly vulnerable, especially when you're in growing up and you're literally growing but also just trying to understand the world.
And there is the enormity of what our generations, older generations have done to give this. You know, since I've been born, as you said right at the beginning when we started the show, you know can't and the amount of pollution we put up, it's more than double since I was born, going into the atmosphere. Then the whole history of the world, the civilization. So you know the fact that actually in the state that we know this
has cause harm, we've carried on doing it. And this next generation, heartbreakingly are actually waking up to this and actually demanding action, which is incredible, right, you know, it's actually this idea of actually they want action, and it's forcing a lot of the world to actually wake up and say, oh, yeah, can't just carry on as normal and it'll be fine because yeah, well I won't be
around for much longer and then it's your problem. Yeah, And I think you know, there was there's an interview where we did it wonderful a wonderful Bill Bill mckibbon, who's been around since I was a teenager. And Bill makes this really valid point. He says, you know, the sort of argument is, oh, the youth can sort it out,
it's their problem. If everyone's sought it, that's fine. But the problem is, as he says, you know, actually they haven't got the money, they haven't got my relationships, they don't understand how the politics works. At the same level, they don't have vote the power to actually do anything about it until they reach the age of the old people saying the older people saying, oh, you sort it out.
And so we've got to work across different generations to actually crack this, because it's not enough just for you to say, oh, it's your problem, you sort it if you're really not worried about it, you know. And I think that's actually quite inspirational bill you know, is doing this thing a group called Third Act, which is basically putting people LOLd of a sixty in contact and helping that younger gen z actually drive those changes. So people
are listening sight the older persuasion. Check out Third Act. It's a great way of getting involved. And then what you can do.
Yeah, and doctor Vansstra makes the point that unhappiness is not like it's natural, like it's understandable given what young people are dealing.
With as the social media, because of social media, because of social media, that's and not wanting to work.
And but that's right, they're lazy and social media and those are the main things. And there might be the climate thing. No obviously, like there's this massive existential threat to the species. And it feels a little crazy making to be living, entering into this world where everyone's like yeah, yeah, oh yeah, but you guys got it, so we didn't happiness this you've done happiness and the anger is actually the proropriate response.
It's absolutely And then and then the question is what do you do with that? And that's where you need to actually focus out and say, okay, let's drive action. Yes, don't just reflect on that and get worse. Actually we can actually make a big difference. But yeah, it's a huge challenge, but you're right, it's a natural response to that.
Who would get angry exactly? All right? Well, Chris, what a pleasure having you on the Daily Gust. Where can people find you? Follow you here? You are the good stuff?
Ah well, we're welcome. I'm on Instagram for Prof. Chris Attorney and those of them on LinkedIn as well. I'm on the same name as well, so please reach out. But check out the podcast I'm Fucking the Future and hope you enjoy it. It's it's got solutions out there. We can do this. So thanks for all a huge amount for your time. It's been great fun. Yes, thank you.
Great having you on. Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying. I think you've mentioned a couple you've enjoyed.
So the one thing I'm really enjoying is Yellow Dot Studios with the great Adam McKay. Honestly, people want a little bit of light humor but also get some inspiration for what you can do. There's a lot of really short, quirky movies and satire there that's just like getting people activated, but one with Rain Wilson Vogue with Fire and Ice for the Game of Thrones. One that is just a fantastic spoof and you can find out about the House of Excell Mobile and work out how to how to
find those solutions. So great fun, but of humor goes an awfully long way.
There you go. We will look after that in the footnotes, Blake, where can people find you as their working media?
You've been enjoying I just listened to Unfucking the Future today and honestly it was I love it. It's such a good podcast and does leave you feeling better, which is which is great. It's very fun. Also, there was a tweet that I was that I was enjoying work. There is that picture of Trump where what if it
was just this? I like that picture of Trump ordering all the milkshakes at the Chick fil A. Now there was someone took a screenshot of that and said, like, what do you notice about their reaction the people working at the store, And then at Die Workwear wrote I will tell you what I noticed, and then he did a thread dissecting Donald Trump's suit and why it's not fashionable in all the errors that he's done that makes the suit make him look worse than if he had
actually just tailored it correctly. So it was at a d I E W O R K W E A R. Then also you didn't ask, but where can they find me?
At Blake Wexler Maybe you did? Maybe Sorry, I've been having so much trouble listening to you today and it's the worst co host of I really this I miss so much today on a Blake Wexler on social media, and then I am doing stand up on the road coming up Cincinnati this week April eighteenth to the twenty first, Philadelphia April twenty seventh, Brooklyn the twenty eighth, and then Bristol, Tennessee, May Tempt to the eleventh, And all those dates are
on Blake Wexler dot com at slash live dash dates.
Amazing.
There, go see Blake in person. You really have to see him in person, so don't. Yeah, it's really like you get it in person more.
Yeah, it's a similar situation where because of the fruit smashing I have, like you know, there's gonna be a tarp.
I really need to see you need to get with the little bits of watermelon to really yet extra.
No, No, what's actually it does. Yeah, it costs me to be honest, that's a lot of overhead for the fruit, the produce transportation between the dates and my mallet that I have to check.
You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore o
Brian tweet. I've been enjoying Jason Pargan, former guest former co host of The Cracks podcast, has just been doing this running thing about how what you know, one of the greatest Hollywood mysteries from any movie is from the movie The Town and how nobody can figure out what what town it takes place in, which is my friends that I ever it's so over the top, like they're like every single like everybody's got like Boston shirts on in Boston hats, and they're like they call Fenway the Cathedral,
Like my friends and I always talked about, like joked about how over the top it was, and like how they just smashed you over the head, like calling Fenway were Robin the Cathedral, bro is so absurd. But this is just the greatest. I just love it. Very dry and funny from Jason Pargin Jason K. Pargen on Twitter. You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeikeeist for
at d Daily Zeicheist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, Dailyzeikeguys dot com where we post our episodes and our footnotes where we link up to the information that we talked about in today's episode, as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Super producer Justin Connor, is there a song that you think people might enjoy?
Yeah, this is a really fun track.
It's got this squelcheese sounding bass and some sexy falsetto vocals that's very reminiscent of like some seventies funk mixed with modern R and B. It's starting to get warmer out in some places, so this would be a nice track for a cookout or something like that. But this is Mango by Comu and Adie Oasis and you can find that song in the footnotes foot notes.
The Daily zaich Guy is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That is to do it for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we will talk to you all then Bye.