Well, well, well, guess who's back. It's me and I only missed one of the most fun discussions talking about the gold medal game for Team USA. But guess what, We're only about thirty two days out from Media Days.
And also look the Celtics Nuggets.
Heading overseas for the NBA Abu Dhabi Games, So it's time to circle back start discussing expectations for the upcoming season plus a little bit of nineties player nostalgia as we'd like to do in this summer this year with the Volumes very own Jason Timp on today's episode, I'm Miles.
Grant and I'm Jack O'Brien and this is Miles and Jack mans.
Got it. Look at the Hicks ten o K.
There you go, m B driving Spinny Fatter number eighteen that's been secured. The Celtics are NBA champions over the double TA be honest, Welcome, Welcome, Jason Timp of the Volume look providing a lot of great analysis on Twitter now working longside and for Colin Coward at the Volume Jason, thank you so much for joining us, Man, welcome to my box, and Jack on Mad Boosti's.
Of course man, thanks for having me on. Uh yeah, I really enjoyed the Team USA stuff. The one downside is is like I look up and it's August twenty yeah, and I feel like the season's really close already, and I was looking forward to some downtime, but the site just kept busy.
Man.
Yeah right, yeah, I like, I'm gonna be enjoying these last this last month and taking it easy. But like we man, it's just it's crazy. It's crazy how long the season is.
Seriously, and I mean the one silver lining is at least once Media Day comes, we get a new Jimmy pick, so you know.
That'll be what do you think he's gonna go with?
Oh man, maybe like what did she kind of.
Like, what was the one to beatle Juice? There's gonna be a tie in.
No wait, so it was emo Jimmy last year, and.
Before that it was just like kind of long yeah yeah, he had yeah, he had like dreads.
He had like long dreads. So yeah, I mean, I don't know what the escalation, but it.
Was just like two of them, right, It's just like two really long dreads.
Yeah, correctly, Yeah, it's I don't know, I mean, it was definitely wow and I think it depended on how he styled it based on the press conference.
But yeah, yeah, and yeah yeah, but like a little thinner Angel hair Millie Vanilli.
Angel hair Millies, Angel Hair Millies. Jason, I got to say, you know, we have a lot.
Of people on this show, but you know on your Twitter.
We're just going to tell you that up front show a lot of people, Vince Carter.
With a lot of guys.
Yeah, but the one thing is, you know a lot of people don't have boosties.
I saw your mixtape that you have at the top of your Twitter.
In fact, it's kind of a rule. Yeah, like Dubari, don't be.
Bringing people onto this show who have men and thus make us look like we don't have mad boosties.
Yeah.
The only people we will allow our NBA legends because but and then, but when it comes to other people who talk basketball and stuff.
Like that, I'm like, I can't get postered by this guy. Dude, you're nice with it. I gotta say some you got some skills, bro, three.
Sixty, I'm your textbook. I was a late bloomer, so I just have like a big chip on my shoulders, so like, I just take basketball way too seriously for a thirty three year old who doesn't care for a living. Yeah, but it is what it is. I thankfully have a wife who supports the obsession. And dude, I'm just I know, I have this like feeling like I know that this is like my last little window of being able to
play a little bit. So I'm trying to just embrace it and lean into it and then yeah, yeah, then hopefully all age gracefully and accept the end when it comes, because what I don't feel like doing is getting cooked up by these old guys. I was literally talking to a buddy of mine who was just playing a pickup game with Joe lacub and I was like, what is his old ass doing out there? Like you do it like?
And he and my buddy played at Stanford. I'm like, I feel like at a certain point, you just got to accept reality and walk gracefully into the sunset.
So that doesn't make you good at basketball owning a team full of good basketball players. You aren't suddenly You don't suddenly acquire their skills shockingly not.
Yeah, he was like hitting a free throw and going like, night night.
Are we sure about this?
You're sharing with seven to man, what do you what are you doing?
Hey man? That last point was actually game? You know what I mean?
You're just shooting free throws after the game?
Oh man?
But yeah, Jason, it's good to have you here.
We're gonna talk a little bit about the season before we also get into our nineties discussion.
He picked some great people to talk about. I'm excited to discuss some of those players.
Jabari really started this off or producer Jabari with a very interesting question are the Celtics being overlooked or preemptively cast?
Aside?
Immediately after winning a ring and we.
Were like, are they being cast Is it just that they're so good that it's boring to talk about them right right? And so we're just like, yeah, and the Celtics are probably gonna win, but like, well it's kind of the same team, Like they didn't do anything that interesting in the off season other than anything getting like mad that we can't get more playing time. But do we think anything is going to carry over from the Olympics, like or is Lebron gonna continue to look good will Tatum?
Will it be in Tatum's head that he didn't get playing time?
Do we get like like Olympics. RUI too, like, do we get all of this, all of the right, all of those things? I am in my Laker heart like your fan heart. I hope so, But I don't know. I mean, I feel like it just you kind of tap into something different for the Olympics, and I think that's where that came from. But I would love to see a lot of these people take that into it, and also to see Jason Tatum continue to.
Be humbled as he said, you know, really humbling.
Ad in particular has a reputation for taking a few months off every summer and coming into the season like rusty and out of shape, and so I think he's the main guy who will benefit from it. I think Lebron too, Like I'd like, I don't know about you guys, but like I thought, you know, Lebron's, Steph and KD.
All three of those guys have been getting a lot of like what I think is unfair analysis over the last year or two based on them being on pretty flawed rosters and like people going like, oh, these guys just don't have it anymore, and like really, it's like if you've got three or four really high level two
way role players. It just makes life easier for superstars, and all three of those guys just don't have that, And so in a weird way, I actually think like all three of them embraced this summer as like a chance to play real basketball in like high stakes environments, and so I think all three of them probably feel competitively reinvigorated, and like Stephens and Steph had a really bad end to last season, I think he's gonna have a little bit of a bounce back type of season.
I still think Lebron is playing like firmly at a top six or seven level when he's healthy, right like, and then Kevin Durant was you know, greatt in the playoffs and then great in the with Team USA. So I think all three of those guys are really good. It's just unfortunately they're going back to their their iffy situations and the Western Conference is such a blood bath it may not even matter, right, right.
Yeah, KD was so good in that situation. He's just like the ultimate person. Like whatever happens with the Suns, like if he can just like be a weapon on a really good team again at the end of his career, like that was fun to just like see somebody be able to bring Kady in and just be lights out for it five ten minutes.
You know, I just want to see all of them play on like really great teams again. And it just it is what it is, all three of It's so funny because all three of them are in situations that should have been avoidable. Like the Warrior should have traded the kids two years ago, and if they did, they'd be in a much better position because now the kids aren't that good, so they're like stuck in this in between zone. And it's like for Lebron it was the
Russell Westbrook trade. For KD it was leaving Golden State to begin with, and and his obsession with finding other pull up shooters to play with for whatever reason. But like, like all three of those guys, they just they're just in these unfortunate situations and it's a huge bummer. I don't know about you, guys. I'm sure you guys have hit really good numbers for your show with the Tmosa stuff.
Theosa stuff has been crushing all over the place. I think a big part of that is, like all of us basketball fans, we just miss watching those guys playing big games and it, you know.
And it was. I mean I was when when it was happening.
I was texting Jack and Jabari like just about like how it was sort of I think most people saw that. It's like and this team, all of these players are showing up up with their exact specialized skill set and like cranking it up to ten in the best way where you're like, it felt like playing a video game where it's like you can't put all of them on the same team, like you're just gonna do what they did.
And I was so exciting to watch.
But yeah, I'm I am worried about the if the situation that the Lakers are definitely in for it.
Sure, yeah, I mean.
At MGM they are currently let's see one, two, three, four or five light now they are the ninth favorite team to uh make it to win the championship.
So okay, okay, yeah, okay.
Let me let me ask you this, Miles, who is the best two way player on the Lakers other than Lebron and Ady.
Oh Man.
I think the answer is obvious and it's not a great answer.
But who are you going to say?
Is I was gonna say Austin Reeves Austin's become a decent point of attack defender, and I think he's a very good offensive player. But that's the main issue is like you go around, like go to Boston and it's like, Okay, you got Tatum and Brown, who how many like really good two way players they have, Like Derek White, really good two way player, Drew Holliday really good two way player, alhar Field a really good two way players.
Like, yeah, they're cheating.
They just like, build a team of all the best two way players.
To another.
Just do that fair. And that is also what I said when they built that team. I said, that's not fair.
Well to the original question that you've pitched, Like, I don't think anybody who covers the league doesn't have Boston as the championship favorite next year. I think everyone respects them. I think you're also right that there's a certain amount of a boring element to the discussing them. Even within the eighty two it's like, Okay, Boston beat Atlanta again, Like you guys want to break it down, you know, it's just hard to get into get into all those
kinds of things. I think a big part of it too, and I think this is part of like the kind of like the fan insecurity element that you're seeing a ton of coming out of Boston. Like I'm sure you've seen some of the stuff with like Boston fans like straight up being pissed about Tatum not playing even though they won the gold, which is completely absurd.
It was like a conspiracy. Wait, let's just call it what it was, Jason.
It was a conspiracy to get in the head of the Boston Celtics and their players.
It's so funny to.
Be though, because it's like, Okay, so Steve Kerr is jealous of the Celtics even though he just beat them in June two years ago. It doesn't make it. It's so asinine. But the main thing that I think is driving it is I think fans want to see the struggle and they want to see overcoming adversity. It's like it's like the gold medal, the dudo won the four hundred meter just straight up doing the triple jump across the finish line, like you right, Like you want to
see that struggle and Boston just it looked easy. It looked easy, their stars weren't taxed, Like how often can you see a team's best player legitimately have the worst playoff runt of his career and it not matter. It just literally not matter. And that's the thing is, it's just Boston. There's no real like appeal to the casual fan, so no one cares about that title outside of the
Boston fan base. And so as a result, like there's that kind of like that classic like we're not getting discussed or we're not getting respected kind of insecurity coming out of there.
So from a team that's not being actually disrespected other than like in their fans heads, because they want to like create a narrative where nobody believed in us, and it's like, no, everyone believed in everyone much that they're bored by talking about I.
Was dreading it the whole year, That's how much I believed in it as a Laker Fand they're just gonna.
Not bought except for everybody who's not Jason.
They got lucky too, by the way. They didn't get They didn't face a single one of the top five records in the league in the playoffs. Like all that, it's like who out east of it was like, Okay, are they going to be able to get through the healthy knicks or that Bucks team, and it's like they just didn't have to play it. It's like, how are they going to be able to beat Denver or like a team like Minnesota or a team like Oklahoma City.
Is that they just didn't have to play it like they they went I want to say, like I can't remember off the top of my head, I want to say, they went three and five against the top four seeds in the Western Conference and they just didn't have to
play any of them. So, like, there's so even though I think they were the best team and I think they deserve to be the favorite, they want credit for being the most dominant team in recent NBA history, And it's like, You're just not gonna get that credit from the rest of the people.
I don't think, No, you're not, definitely not on this show.
Maybe yeah, they did, all right. I will say we gave them that credit in the lead up in an attempt to reverse yangst them, and it didn't work unfortunately.
All Right.
So the the thing that I'm surprised by is people are hard on the Oklahoma City thunder bandwagon. Okay, like gamblers are, like they are the number two team, like odds wise to win the title next year, which I don't know, like I think, Yeah, they definitely made some good adjustments kind of in the background, but I don't I don't see it as them being like hyper like they're two spots ahead of the Nuggets.
The Nuggets are ranked fourth.
On a bunch of odds the MGM site. So what do you think? I Like, I see the case right adding Cruise on. Yeah, yeah, no, that's awesome, Like, but it's also those aren't It's not like they added a like number two or three person. They added like really good, really solid four or five people, which I'm excited about, Like I probably would put them near the top of my list, but I'm a little surprised they're ahead of the Nuggets.
Yeah, so I still have Denver as the top team in the West. I think people are writing them off way too fast. I thought they were clearly just out of gas when they got to the postseason last year, just from a tough couple of years and a couple like both KCP and Jamal Murray were banged up going into the playoffs, which was something that continued to kind of PLA like them a little even without KCP. That obviously is a downgrade going to Christian Brown in the
starting lineup. But it's just, to me, really simple. It's like you've got a couple of really good two way players and Nikole Jokich and a shot maker that can play with him. I think it's silly to write them off. The reason why, I think people are really high on the Thunder and I do have them as a top tier contender now. Last year, to me, it was just Boston and Denver. To me, Oklahoma City has entered into that group. And I think there are a couple other
teams that you could consider there. But like the thing with Oklahoma City is they were already really good. Like look at last year, they were a foul on a three point shooter in the corner away from forcing a game. It would have been a game seven back in Oklahoma City. So like they were this close to the conference finals. And they had two gigantic weaknesses. They were a terrible defensive rebounding team and you could really go through their
front line. And so Isaiah Hartenstein addresses both of those. And then there was one other issue, which is they kind of always seem to have like a question mark around that fifth guy in any life, up, and now Isaiah Hartenstein and Alex Cruso give you two definitive looks. A small ball look where Cruso is the fifth guy and you're going with j Dub and Shay and Dort
alongside Crusoe and Chet. And then they have a big look where you pull Crusoe off, or maybe you pull Dort off and you put Hartenstein next to Chet, and so they have clearer fives with a little bit more versatility, and they address their two gigantic weaknesses in terms of their front court strength and their ability to rebound, and
they're more experienced. I don't know those the end of the series against Dallas, I thought Shay was kind of going blow for blow with Luca, if not even like, yeah, there were there were games where he was playing better than him too. So like I'm a believer in Okay. See, I just can't put him over that Denver team. Yet. I still think they're just a little bit of a safer bet. God, Dan, you just brought back how close we were. I bet Okay in the off season at
like some crazy number. I would have made eleven thousand dollars on a one hundred dollar bet if they had won the title. So I was living and dying with every single one of those things you just mentioned last season that was that was pain.
Bring it up again, man, Hey, can I transfer the cigaret for this season.
To do that?
No you thought it was for this? No?
No, no, no, bro?
Oh come on.
In the odds right now? Are they?
Are?
They second by in Boston?
Yeah, the plus seven fifty at MGM, which is wild. They opened it plus one thousand, So it's crazy.
It's just a lot of it seems like a lot of public money.
A lot of people like have read two articles in the off season, like, uh, I think I have, because yeah, they started out below Denver and since then have kind of shot up.
And then Denver in the and Philly seemed to be around the same and the next.
It's the scary thing is what is jub going to be because like he had a somewhat rough playoff run expected for a for a first time in that kind of situation, but like he's one of those guys that I think I think he's His upside is like Jimmy Butler with a reliable jump shot, Like I think that's his upside. And so like the question of how soon
he gets to that near ish. That level is such a huge question mark surrounding not just the thunder for this season, but in the future too, because like all the intel behind the scenes is that Shay is the kind of guy that kind of liked you know, he's big into fashion, he likes he's got a big personality.
He's kind of a big city type, and so there is kind of a more brief, urgent window for Oklahoma City than you would think, and a lot of that comes down to j dub and just how quickly he becomes awesome.
Yeah, he might be moving to like Dallas or you know, one of those big cities.
We don't know.
Yeah, what all right, you sound like somebody who knows stuff about basketball. How do you feel about my Philadelphia seventy six ers.
They're going to be a really interesting team to see, just the way they come together in terms of like their their chemistry and the part of the season, just because it kind of reminds me of a lot of the other kind of super team builds where it's like it's just a bunch of guys that got thrown together. That said, I'm as big a Tyres Maxie fan as
you'll find. I think he's awesome. And one of the big things with Tyres Maxi was like last year he just shot the laces off the basketball and catch and shoot situations, but he struggled off the dribble for whatever reason. And then that kind of came through for him in
the playoffs. I mean, you guys saw him hit that big shot that tied the game and what was a Game five or game I think it was Game five against Yeah, I think he have forty something in that game is insane fifty And then, like Paul George, he's in like the perfect role on this team because he's basically a tertiary shot creator. He's basically like a juiced
up superstar version of Michael Porter Junior. In this matchup where it's like Tyres Maxi and Embid are still going to be running the primary action the majority of the time down the floor, I would think, and then he's just going to be kind of working off of that that'll allow him to devote more of his energy to
the defensive end. I think really it just comes down to, like how many of those kind of role players that you threw together are you going to be able to turn into useful rotation pieces and that that's just gonna
be something we got to figure out. I thought, uh uh, the Yabuseli signing was interesting because he kind of fits the build of like that modern His archetype has become sneakily like one of the most valuable archetypes in the league, which is like the big, strong four that can be useful offensively, but that can like guard the other teams big so that you can use your center as a roamer. This was the big thing that Boston did, if you guys, remember by putting they just put their They put Tatum
on the center every single time. Because Tatum could box out centers and he couldn't be bullied on the block. That allowed them to just use chrisps Porzingis or or Al Horford to always guard the weakest above the break shooter on the other team, and then they could try to funnel things towards you know. That's how they beat Dallas, right, And so that's the thing is like I don't think Kelly Ubre is big and strong enough to guard centers,
but I think where Sean is. And so that's kind of an interesting kind of look where you don't have to. You don't need him to be super vertically athletic. You just need him to box out centers and not get bullied on the block. And now you can use em beat as more of a roamer, and I think that could be a really useful look for them defensively.
For listeners who don't know, Yabuseli is the guy you googled in the middle of the USA France game who is like just yoking on people and having an incredible game. And so when you googled him, you found out that he was like the number sixteen pick with the Celtics a number of years ago and like just kind of sat bench for them. But yeah, I mean the reason we were all googling him was because he he looks like he he can do it, at least play some
some big minutes. So yeah, that's exciting. That's the thing you're getting me, not crazily like I'm always surprised. I'm always pleasantly surprised by like when he does good stuff because I just like don't believe in him. But he did, like play some good minutes last year. I just but I really like the Yabooselli signing, Like I like the guy that got from the heat, you know, like I just yeah, Kale Martin, Like I like those guys. And
then obviously the Paul George thing is exciting. If he can stay healthy, it's.
An interesting look. Yeah, but Maxie Martin, because Martin then becomes your athlete guard that guards the other team's best guard. Yeah, that Maxie Martin, Paul George, Ubre Embiid is really fast, believe it or not, which I think is important because Embiid is slow and he struggles and transition in up and down game. So surrounding him with a lot of speed and athleticism I think is really smart.
Yeah, it'll be interesting.
I was, yeah, as I was talking about in the Olympics, just watching him be slow to the ball, slow to defensive rebounds, I was having flashbacks and.
I don't know right now.
Yeah, you know what, Jason, Uh, that's that's the thing that you could have said seventy percent of his career unfortunately. So I'm hoping, I'm hoping this is the year you know that we like managed to you know, he's he's in shape when he needs to be, he's healthy when he needs to be.
And yeah, and then we're in business.
We are our number three on MGM's list of second round. Baby, that's all I want. Just get me out of the second richest. Yeah, just me out of the second.
The Drummond pickup was huge too, because, like, you know, Maury's gonna basically tell Nick Nurse like mbads capped at fifty games or something like that. Yeah, and yeah, they're gonna be like, no back to backs, no more than three games in a week, Like you know, they're going to be holding him down. And so Andre Drummond was like sneaky and awesome pickup because he's one of my favorite I've ever had. Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, because that's right, he was there a couple of years ago.
Back.
Yeah, he was all right, we should take a break.
This went long, and we do have some nineties players to talk about, so we'll be right back after this.
And we're back.
We are back.
We're back, and we are back in nineteen nineties. What the nineties, What a time to be alive. We the Democratic National Convention last night. We got to got a reminder when they played the Bulls intro music of Her gives people.
I'm surprised the lasers didn't come out too, I know, but yeah, we've been talking about our favorite nineties players with our guests. We've had a list that we show everybody. Everybody picks a couple of names they want to talk about. Jason, you picked Alan Iverson, the Dream and the Worm, uh, and these are I'm I'm very excited to talk about these three players.
And I don't know who who do we Who do we want to start with?
I mean we've been we were just talking about the same so maybe we just continue that by talking about Alan Iverson. Yeah, I mean, I guess Jason set us up here. We'll tell us why when you say I want to If we're gonna talk about nineties players, these are three people that picked.
Why do you want to talk about Alan Iverson?
Well, I think Allen Iverson falls into this group kind of with Kobe to Tracy McGrady a little bit as well, where like the new generation of basketball fans vastly under rates because of some statistical anomalies compared to some of the skill guards you see today, and I think that it's a gross misunderstanding of just how different the game was back then. I mean, like to put it simply, every team was basically running two big lineups all the time.
The power forward was basically just a six ' nine, two hundred and sixty pound gigantic human being who functioned like a big There was just very little space to get all the way to the.
Basket, and so you actually lead Donnis Haslumsnas has Live.
Yeah, exactly. It was like, Okay, you're playing the Lakers. It's like you're playing two bigs tonight. You know what I mean, You're you're you're playing the Calves. Here comes Drew Good and then Zydrona Sougawskaz. You know, it's just always like a two big type of look. And so you actually needed guards to eat up usage and to take a lot of really tough shots. And so, like I'm of the opinion that a guy like Alan Iverson in particular, especially with the way that those sixers teams
were constructed basically around defensive personnel. Like if you took Alan Iverson circa two thousand and two, two thousand and one, and you have dropped him in the Dallas Maverick system, in the Kyrie Irving role or in the Luka doncrich roll, like I think he would have been a sixty percent true shooting type of guy, and it's just it's just
the reality of the way the game is. And so I think, like a lot of times, like he gets kind of miscast now is like this bad you know, bad teammate, a guy who was inefficient and just a shot chucker, and it's just really unfortunate and like to me, like, I'm I'm only thirty three. So like, even as we get into some of these guys from the nine, these I don't have as much like live experience watching them
from when I was a kid. But like for my generation of Hoopers, Alan Iverson was one of the most influential guys, and so many of the guards that I play with picked parts of his game and tried to replicate it. And I just I wish he was remembered more fondly. Let's just put it that way.
Yeah, I mean, I think for people that remember, he's remembered fondly. And I think if you're kind of piecing together what like a memory of Alan Iverson based on like clips you're seeing or articles you're reading, like after the fact, that I can see how some people are like, well, this guy seem like I'm a bit of a like that selfish guy. But I but I just remember someone who was so aggressive, uh and just you couldn't believe it.
For like his height, You're like, there's no this is like six feet and he he is not afraid of anything. I thought that that was captivating for me as a kid because I remember seeing him at Georgetown and.
Those man those uniforms. I still think about those.
Great forms that I really I went to Georgetown largely. I'm going to ask you.
I was like, did shorts were dope?
They were so dope? Yeah, this show was just like a cool school because of those John Thompson. Yeah.
But I mean I just remember, you know, even in the two thousand and one finals too, just uh watching him and being like it was like one of those moments where it was easy for me to be dismissive of the opposing team because I was such a Laker fan. But party is also like, man, I love Alan Iverson even though he's prevented us from going fully sixteen, And oh I.
Just watched him. Uh.
I just watched like some highlights of him, and it reminds me of It's like Jaw when he's got someone on skates or like when he you just he's just like at his most unstoppable, but like with a great mid range game before mid range jumpers were outlawed by a basketball analytics and but just the most dramatic crossovers and just like he would do things to defenders where you'd like see their body just like give up on the court just with their crossover. Antonio Daniels, Yeah, there
was was that on the Lakers. No, no, no doubt he did something to a Lakers garden again the death.
And he stepped over.
No, no, it wasn't the time. It wasn't the tie low one.
This one was he crossed somebody up and their body just like kept going like four steps backwards and then they just fell over.
It's like it's in the middle.
It's like five minutes in this highlight reel that we'll link off too in the show notes. But it's, uh, yeah, he was just like even what he did to Jordan as a rookie, like where Jordan's like moving his body back and forth and he just looks like me out there, like Jordan just looked three steps too slow.
I like it. After though, when he like people asked Michael Jordan about that and he's STI playing. He's like, yeah, man, He's like, I'm not gonna, you know, be out here and say this guy doesn't have it. He's like, because I'm I'm more trying to deny those opportunities for someone to do that. He's like, but you know, he'll learn how to play bas ball, like he'd had to sun him in the same thing.
You know, he will learn how to play basketball. You're like, okay, I'm kids a lot of potential.
Yeah, when he learned how to play the game at a higher.
Level, you know, he's really relying on physical ability at the moment. And you're like, that is true. But also I get it.
Michael Well, his big sweeping crossover like that was like it was just whatever whatevery kid did when they went I mean, heck, it influenced players too. I mean Kobe's crossover when he was young looked just like AI. It's like big sweeping out to the side. Yeah, crazy length.
Yeah, broke my game, but it was worth it because the amount of times they called me for a carryover.
They're like, I'm sorry, kid, what are you doing.
I'm like, you're you're holding the ball up like this I'm like, your hands aren't making enough.
Sorry, all right, let's talk the dream.
Uh really, I don't know, thirty years after his prime, even with all the advancements and overall, you know, the progressive nature of the game, there aren't that many big men as fluid as he was there. I feel like he you could put him at any point in time and he would be dominant right like he is there anyone whose game is like more of a just like Surefire. Put him in and he's a top five player right now. I feel like he's right there, right yeah for sure.
Well absolutely because he was because he was so good defensively too, yeah, which I think people forget, but like he would like it's so funny when people compare and be to him, because I do see some of it in the sense where it's just this massive human that's doing some guard stuff really, but the big difference is like a King was in really good shape, so like
he had this like really quick quick feet. Like it's so funny because people think of him as this is this high level post player, which he obviously was, but he also was like just a really good mid range pull up jump shooter, so like he would face up and like do a jab step and like hard move to the left and shooter like he would rip through the right and do a wonderable pull up like he was a two guard and he had the right shoulder
fade he had would hook over his left shoulder. But he had all these like mid range jump shots that looked a lot like the two guards of the time.
And so he was.
He was this like Anthony Davis level mobile super lanth defender who was blocking a ton of shots mixed with like the one of the best face up games in the league at the time. Watching him, I don't think people, I think I think the the the Joel Embiid comparisons are borderline offensive when you compare the difference in just his mentality and how how seriously he took his his body and his health and just his it. Just he's just at another level in my opinion.
Yeah, two times deepoy, two times Finals MVP, which I don't think Embiid has won either of those.
I don't think.
I don't think we have a finals MVP.
Three times black champ uh just but like again, just a beautiful person to watch play basketball.
Just yeah, yeah, And I get those like the Jokic comparisons to Like to a certain extent. And I think there's also the interesting part with like team too, is just he also has like a soccer background too. He's like one of those like bigs who has the soccer background who's just just because of that is looking at bald distribution a little bit differently, like yeah, how or like a lot of the guys who are coming from
Europe and stuff like that. But the other part that I think I remember as a kid always thinking he was boring to watch because it wasn't like as flashy. And then as I got older and was like, yeah, the foot like and you actually begin to understand footwork and appreciate it that and you're like, yeah, that's that. That should be impossible, Like your knees should be done if you're that big moving like normal, No, not at all.
And then once he's like then I started like hearing more stories about just how like aggressive he really was, Like like you just duff people out, like on the court in an arrow when like the fine was like thirty bucks for hitting a guy and he's like, yeah, yeah, okay, I'll do that.
Watch this full one.
You can't have your locker room six pack, right.
Buddy, Yeah, yeah, yeah, He's like, well, you have to get through me.
The nastiness is such an underrated basketball try. We're like looking at players and like, it's so funny how when we look at the guys that disappoint us, it's almost always they don't have that nastiness. Yeah, right, like that that the like desire to just not just win, but to embarrass you in the process. Like that, it's almost like a mean streak.
Yeah, it's a personality defect that works perfectly for competitive sports.
People will be like, oh my god, you guys Wenby is a jerk. Yes, yeah, he's mean. That's great, dude.
He took a little baby's lollipop. No, yes, okay, his shoulders.
Are getting for autograph and he told him to screw off.
He said, I'm not Victor.
Wow.
Wow, what else could it be?
But yeah, I again, I think but one of those people too. I think for a lot of younger fans just do not really talk about much. I think like a lot of older heads obviously do and though they hear it, because a lot of the older players are still always like people need to remember how good a cheme Elijawan was, But yeah, for the U just.
I think the one place then the comparison makes sense to me is just that we got to see their games like develop into people with like beautiful touch and footwork, like from when they first got to college they were so raw and like just completely different players. And then yeah, so like that's that's the one place where it makes sense. But in terms of like the game, that like the scope and greatness of the game, I think you're right.
It's I think it's realistic. I think you're right. I think I think if you had to compare and be to one single center in NBA history, it makes sense that it would be a game. It's just you can't you can't say he's like him.
He just has some similarities, you know, right, Yeah, it's like, well that rectangle looks like a square.
Technically they are parallelograms, so we will we'll take that.
And a lot of those throw a lot of those Queen comparisons were thrown out early on when he was in better shape and he was more healthy. I shouldn't say more healthy because he was injured right away, but when we were not we were it looked like do you remember that first year, the first year and a half when he started playing where it was.
Like holy twenty ones or so. Yeah yeah, and like there.
Was definitely that phase there where it was like maybe this is what he could be, you know, but it just pretty quickly turned into something else.
Yeah sure, and then Rodman, this was my favorite part of the Last Dance, which was one of my favorite basketball experiences of yeah, the past ten years, was when we got to we needed something, the Last Dance came through and watching Rodman like getting to see his process, how much he studied, Like just I didn't studied a thing that I didn't really know you could study, but like where you know, knew where everybody was gonna miss too, was there before the ball got there.
When he's talking about he's.
Like it'll go ping and then go that way. Yeah, this one and then it will be this one. I'm like, oh, I don't what what kind of omitry do you call him?
Yeah, he's just like watching a different game than like when he's watching a game, he like gets excited about the misses because he's like, yo, yeah, yeah.
That that clip got some real meme mileage around the I remember I mind you COVID, so the bar was a little lower.
Yeah, yeah, we we were just like anything.
Fine, let's give Judd Buschler his own podcast based on at this moment.
Uh, but yeah, Robmin, what great pick.
I don't like, there's not really a comparison, Like there's been people who are like kind of close to the rebounding totals.
But what Yeah, we'll just talk about why why.
Did you pick Robmin?
Well, he's kind of the opposite of a Keem in the sense that, like, I don't think he has the same level of like translatability from ara to era in some ways, although it's it's it's always hard to tell because you wonder about a guy like Rodman if he was raised in this era, if his skill development would have look different and he would have been a better
I always got to be careful with that. It's like I always hate when younger people say like, oh, MJ couldn't shoot threes, and it's like I have a feeling if he came up now, he would have been a very good three point later Like you like that, Like he just wouldn't allow that to not be the case, you know. Uh, But like I think it's you know, we talked about the two big kind of look that most teams had. You know, it was just something you could get away with back then, having a player with
some more offensive limitations. But uh, you know, I think anybody who's ever played basketball at any level knows that the when it comes down to winning in real high stakes environments, there's just it mostly comes down to dirty work, and you got to have people who are willing to do that sort of thing. And and you know, he's just been a part of a lot of winning teams within that context.
Yeah, And I mean, like the thing that's also I remember one of my first book reports or like middle school book reports. I did that as bad as I want to be his like biography that came out in the nineties. They're like what, and I'm like, yeah, I want to write about this. This is the one I'm talking about.
Literature in college, right. Yeah.
The reason he wore the wedding dress was to actually symbolize the a malleability of our idea of what masculinity is or is not. But like with Rodman, like the thing that was so unbelievable is like you'd hear it's like he'd play a game and then like lift weights for like two hours after the game and then stay up till five in the morning partying, and then you know, show up on game day and then give you twenty
rebounds and like rinse and repeat. And I think that's like a really wild part about is like you realize just how much of a physical specimen you have to be to have that kind of schedule and take that just I pardon me, is like, God, imagine if you went to bed at night or whatever, but then parton like I don't know if you ever.
Needed this easy if he slept, yeah.
But even then without it all, like so many players stories about him were just like I can't believe how this guy I was living and then the performances he put in or like I think who was it Dirk was talking about when he played on the Mavericks. He was like did this guy didn't even know anything like
any of the schemes we were running at all. Like he would take a shower like right before like apparently did this before every game, forty five minutes before the game, cold shower, miss all the meetings and then just get out there and be like all right, I'm just gonna do my thing and still like perform at that level and you're like how how Yeah.
There are a few times in NBA history where the numbers just don't make sense. Like you look back at like Wilt when he was like in the early early phase of the NBA, the scoring numbers and the rebound numbers he put up, and there've been just a handful of other examples of that, and like Rodman's rebounding numbers in the nineties are like that. You look at him and you're like what, like how yeah, Like how in the world did he do this? It wasn't just leading
the league seven years in a row. He was hitting just preposterous numbers. And then I think we're actually going to see this with Wemby now with the blocks and steals like this, dude's just going to perennially be at
like five or six stocks per game. And I think we're going to look back at and be history and be remember, like be like remember Wemby in the mid twenty twenties like that, Like I think I think that was what Rodman was in the nineties, where just as a complete like outlier in terms of statistical performance.
Eighteen eighteen seventeen seventeen fifteen, sixteen fifteen, that those were his average rebounds from ninety one through his third championship season fourteen point nine.
Yeah, what it's a year, but ye under fifteen a game.
He's like, I wasn't going to the casino enough that year. That was the problem.
And then I got it together and then we won another two championships.
The stories of Ivor said, I'm Robman, like just rolling in from being out the night before, like right before the game, and uh and just putting, you know, giving the other team fifties.
Yeah, I feel like I mean, if either of you guys ever played eighteen holes and then gone to play pickup, no, no, no, dude. So I did that for the first time. It would have been it was about a month and a half ago now important context. It was in Arizona in July, so it's a little but I went to play and I was like, oh my god, I'm dying out here.
And all I could think, I think is like, how is it that Jordan was playing thirty six holes and then going and then going to play that night, Because like golf is like it, it actually does take it out of you more than you'd think you know, well you're just like walking around.
Yeah. Then there's also that famous story about him going out and like, you know, having a bunch of beers on the golf course and then going out and putting up forty Yeah. Right, I have had a beer and then like tried to run, like go for a run, and I was like, oh, why am I running through concrete?
Like my sides are ripping?
Yeah, and it's just built different. Yeah, all right, should we take a break and come back? Ye, rabid fire.
Yeah, and we're back and we're back.
Oh, Jason, it's been a really fun conversation up until this point because you are now in the hot seat.
This is the rapid fire round of budding.
These are the fastest question and answer segments that we have ever done in the history of podcasting ever. Okay, we're gonna ask a question. You just answer it quick, don't think too hard. Just give us the instant reaction. And if you take too long and threaten our title as fastest question and answer segment in podcasting.
History, we will be very rude.
Okay, just don't make me look like a full in front of the NBA, Jason, don't we promise them? We said, the show is going to be mediocre, but the fastest, say, the rapid fire segment is going to be.
So fastest you've ever seen. No, trust me, we will be able to dunk on everybody we have on the show. Just so you know.
And your threat, it's a big you are.
Different angles.
Yeah, we don't like you.
We don't like it, but it's back. Get the confidence back. Here we go, Jason, are you ready? Yeah, let's do it all right? Then here we go, Brian start the clock right, Yeah, yeah, I'm just nervous, man. I was just I was just rewatching the video and Jason's Twitter.
Filelight real clean you wake off to the highlight reel and the footnote the show.
Wow wow wow? Uh here here, here we go. Uh you should we do one?
Should we do one?
I mean sorry, I'm nervous again. I just I was looking at another replay him.
Why why don't we kick it off here?
Uh?
You want to go?
Yeah, I'll go. Okay, this is the fastest question and answer segment. Just so you know, Jason, this isn't us being rusty.
This is a little bit of this is how we fake them out, you know what I mean a little bit of fake.
Is this like when you're on the polygraphere they ask you all the boring questions first, Rea right.
And just like a polygraph, this is also pseudo scientific. Here's the first question, Jason, this is from our discord. Is there a current comp for pre injury Grant Hill?
I don't think so that that, like super springy two guard pull up shooter hadn't really been I mean, it is the closest thing we've had to but most of the two guards we've had are like the Booker and Hardin types, which are a little bit less athletic, a little more skill based.
Mm hmmmmmm. Okay, okay, that's correct.
That is correct. That is correct.
You got that one. I know you said, no way he gets this one.
But he got it.
He nailed it.
I'm nervous now.
It is currently NBA Dunk Week.
So what's your all time favorite in game dunk and your four dunkers in your all time fantasy dunk contests?
Dunk say dunking?
There you go, and and admittedly biased, but the Lebron dunk over use of Nurkic every time I see the highlight, I still don't know how he did it. His body was moving kind of like away from the rim, and he took off from like the third hash outside the block and was like this and just that was absurd. Vince Carter's always number one for me all time that Strow Miles Swift video. Every single time it comes around.
I just have to watch it.
That's like one of my rules. I have a handful of rules as a human. You always watch the Strow Miles Swift video when it comes around. I'll go with, let's see so Carter lebron Stromile' if I have to give you a fourth, I'll go with I'll go with t Mac Yeah, yeah, tex Is getting got to you.
Got to, you got to now.
I guess this is something since we've been talking about in the nineties and how younger fans kind of put or just people who maybe not were as not engaged with basketball back then, have some misconceptions about the game. What is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the way the game was played in the eighties or nineties and the impact that it's had today.
I think that the idea that that defenses are getting worse is a major misconception. I think like people forget that. Like the offense, the offense is always improving as we get better at schemes and understanding how to generate better shots for people, but also just the skill level of players is increasing. But at the same time, like it's not like the league isn't also trying to solve that.
On the defensive end, it's like we're seeing it now, a team's trying to take away the three in the rim and in different pick and roll coverages that are designed to get the ball out of the primary ball handler's hands. Defense is actually better than it's ever been. It's just the offense is growing at a faster rate. And I think that a lot of times there's just a misconception about defense was better in the nineties.
It wasn't.
It was really good still, it's just as a league, the offense is outpacing it right now.
Yeah, okay, you up a little bit.
Yeah that was the right answer, Jason, But it took way too long for you to say that, So I don't know if we can count that one, just so you know, but that was the right answer.
That was the right answer.
Give us a dark horse team for this next year, and also a dark horse player.
Who you want to see on the twenty twenty eight Olympic team.
Dark horse team. I think a lot of people forget how good Memphis was. I think they're gonna be top we seed, like right away. I think they they kind of found a couple of forwards in their system between like guys like Vince Williams and and Gig Jackson and John Rant I'd like, I threw out this stat the other day, like he just immediately came in. It was awesome and helped them win a win a lot of games where he got hurt. What was the second part of the question, All right.
Give me a dark horse player? Do you want to see on the twenty twenty eight Olympic team?
On the twenty twenty eight Olympic Team? Ah, I'll go with how about Kevin Durant.
Lebron's a given back out there, But if.
There was an old guy who would come back, I'd be him, right because he's such a right right, Like yeah, like Katie just taking spot up jump shots.
Yeah, he's just like he's he's just stuck there in the corner. Man just find him.
He's in love to hoop, all right, And I got to say we have seen your mixtape on the Twitter bio. But what is your personal highlight for you as a basketball player?
Was the nastiest in game moment for you that you still think about when you put yourself.
To bedtnit O.
That's a good question. I would say, if I had to off the top of my head, I would say when I was at when I was in Juco, I had a tip dunk once that I surprised myself with where I was coming down the lane and I was actually just going to grab the offensive rebound. And when I went up and got it, I remember vividly in my head like looking over and seeing the rim like right here, and I was just.
Like, oh yeah, But I mean we've had that happen to us, to Jack and I a lot like right there.
Yeah too oft but it happens too often where I'm not prepared for how high I jumped.
Spoob.
I wish I could get it through my thick head. You have incredible springs down there, buddy.
Got bunnies.
I think I think that's probably it. Like I, just like everybody else, there's a there's it's basketball for me, and I'm sure it is for you guys. Too, Like it's it's a thing that's lasted for decades for me. So I just have, you know, a lot of memory. Like you know what I've had a lot of fun with is just like as an old guy playing in like money tournaments more there's cash on the line. Yeah, I just had I just had one a few weeks ago where I put in three hundred bucks as an
entry feed. Me and a buddy of mine split the entry fee and we brought a team in and like it was double elimination and we lost in the first championship game. We had to like come back and win two in a row, and like the ac was broken in the gym. It was like eighty five degrees and like those moments when you like win the cash and like and you're with a bunch of dudes who used to play in college. Like, I've actually had a lot of enjoyment in the game post college, which is something
that I didn't expect. The big part of that is I'm just a lot better now than I used to be when I was in college.
WHOA, this is true. Some white men can jump. Yeah, it turns out.
And I find it troubling perfectly, all right, Any time you get up there, Jack, You're like, why am I going so high?
I'm too high?
This is can't handle the landing?
Yeah yeah.
Adjacent to thank you so much for joining us on Miles and Jack Got Mad Boosties. Where do the people find you? Follow you, hear you, support you, read you, all that good stuff.
This is a lot of fun. I really appreciate you guys having me on the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel, Hoops Tonight podcast podcast feed, and then on Twitter at underscore json lt is where I'm most active. I'm trying to get better using Instagram, but Twitter's just where my biggest following is right now. So that's where I like tweet out show announcements and links and stuff like that.
Okay, cool, Well, you can follow the hashtag mad Boosties b sd I e s for show links and updates, and then you'll also be able to join the discord when you search for that hashtag. We have all the information there. You can follow me on Twitter at Miles of Gray. I'm at Jack Underscore O'Brien, and that.
Was another fantastic episode on Miles and Jack. I'm mad most these.
In Yeah, I think it was pretty fantastic.
Sweet I think it was.
Wait.
I mean, it's not often you get three dudes who are just so used to being up there.
You thought we had NASA suits on, you know what I mean. But we are just three ortle men just enjoying the game of basketball. Thank you, doctor Nasmith for all you've done, and thank you to our calves for being springy.
And muscular and taking us to heights unseen before. All right, y'all, that was it for us. We'll see you next week. Bye bye bye,