Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three, twenty two, episode two of Dirt Daily's Guys. It's a production of iHeartRadio. It's a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, January twenty third, twenty twenty four.
Yeah you know what that two three two one two three two three, Well guess what? It's National National Handwriting Day, shout out to everybody who's still nice with the pen and pencil or quill, and also National Pie Day. But yeah, handwriting. I realize they're not teaching cursive anymore out here in the US.
So I yeah, I haven't written cursive since like sixth seventh grade. I think, do you have a pen and paper? Handwriting Day is discriminatory against me as a left handed person.
Wait do you do you have a pen and paper in front of you right now?
No?
Oh, I was gonna say, would you write your name right now? In cursive?
I mean that one I can probably do right right my signature, but like, yeah, pizzeria pizzeria would be a real Billy Madison style problem. Yeah yeah, those z's are you fucking kicking?
Yeah?
Those are those? Don't don't look like any letter I ever seen anyways. By the way, I was just being a type of person I hate. Who's like really calling you out for calling it twenty twenty three?
Oh shit, did I say?
It's like, oh yeah, yeah, you said one, two three, two three, And that's fine for I think we have a grace period until June. Personally, after the pandemic, it's it's it's weird time has time has gone in a weird direction. And I think it's fine if somebody writes the year like as twenty twenty two, that's a fun thing to like laugh with them about. Yeah, but twenty twenty three. Give them a fucking break. Yeah, Like you're being like the person at the sleepover who's like, you
mean this morning because it just hit midnight? Yeah, and twelve correcting people.
You mean yesterday. Yeah. I feel like with that, I'm finally experiencing that form of time dilation our parents experience when they say the other day and it could mean three weeks to thirteen years ago. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah, the other day, it's twenty twenty three.
With movies that like came out I think recently, and it turns out it's over a decade ago. That really fucks me up, and it happens to me all the time. Anyways. My name is Jack O'Brien aka the rich don't give a fuck about us, The rich don't give a fuck about us. The rich don't give a fuck about us. Eat them on the halfshell, Lambeau power. That is courtesy of Malacaroni on the Discord, who I was just fucking around when I said, you can't write songs about me
because of my pants anymore? Man, You can. You can totally write songs about it. That's that's fine. I'm the one who's choosing to sing men.
Yeah, yeah, but through clenched teeth wiping away tears every Yeah.
But it's a it's something that my therapist has said I need to work through musically, So you're doing the work. I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co host mister Miles Great.
Miles Gray aka how about a deal to make you fail? Okay, we know you failed, depressed shut how about a quick holiday shout out to Andrew bubb on the Discord because we were talking about Blue Monday, the most depressed day ever in history. But we don't really get that so much in the US, and just how it's really just a scheme to sell people vacations or McDonald's.
Oh I missed that one. Well, which day is blue Monday? Is it today?
It was last Monday? It was, yes, yes, exactly.
Oh, but they gave us a day off so that we wouldn't like be so said.
Well, just like a thing that was started in the UK with sky Travel, where they were basically had a guy be like I have out like mathematically calculated the most depressed day as like a function of time that is a lapsed since Christmas, sadness and motivation, and it was all just bullshit and you know, yeah, but hey, that's a great way to sell I respect it.
It's Touch Todays, Yeah, Miles, Yeah, we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat, yes by an expert guest, a returning champion guests on our most popular episode of twenty twenty three.
Oh.
She's a research associate at the Leverholmes Center for the Future of Intelligence. I don't think I pronounced that word right few, where she researches AI from the perspective of gender studies, critical race theory, and Asian Diasporas Studies, also a research fellow at the AI Now Institute, the co editor of the new book The Good Robot, Why Technology Needs Feminism, and a co host of The Good Robot podcast. Please welcome back to the show, the Brilliant doctor Kerrie mcinnarn.
Oh, thanks for having me back.
Oh hey, thank you so much for accepting our invitation. So good to have you back.
And what time is it where you are right now?
It is about ten to eight pm and I am an early bird, so this is near my bedtime. But that just shows how keen I am to get to come back on and talk to you. But that I know, usually after sort of nine pm. Well my friends know, they like there's just going to be no response, no trying to plan anything.
Yeah, it's a special occasion.
Yeah, you're such an impressive guest that we actually opened our call with you by asking you, like why you came back. We were like, so, like you're you're like like us or something like you're cool, You're so we're like idiots, Right, why are you back? And yeah, we're thrilled to have you, regardless of the questionable decision by you to come hang out with us. This late in the evening.
I'm learned. Yes, yeah, because so much has happened. I feel like everything, there's always something happening with A and we're like, once we hit we got to ask doctor
carry like what about this? What about this? And then now we've got the perfect opportunity to ask you a bunch of questions and also let you rain your knowledge down upon us and the listeners, because yeah, last time was really really good talking to you and gave us so much perspective because we were definitely like we like AI end of world right, Like it's like so powerful. Oh no, no, just okay, okay, just these language models are doing a lot of the lifting right now.
We've seen T two. We get it. It's wild how much that movie has a whole Like it's still raised in so many articles. Like yeah, journalists are like as in the movie Terminator too, like they're still they're like, that's the one I remember. So that's what we're going with for this model of understanding. But we're gonna so we're gonna get into all sorts of AI questions. Your new book talks about the question of is there good
technology is that possible? Which is a real question for me at this point, because I've been been so long at sea in this hyper capitalist paradigm. So I'm curious, very interested to hear your answer to that, unless it's just like, nah, it's not possible. Yeah, super short book. But before we get into all of that, we do like to ask our guest, what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are?
Oh gosh, I don't really know if I like what this reveals about me, But you know, we need to
get like really obsessed with something. And it's not even recent, it's not trending, like there's no reason why, but for all my search history for the last two days just really wild deep dives on the twenty nineteen film Cats, you know, the awful one, the Cgifer and you know, all the superstars kind of crawling around it all fours And I don't know why, but for some reason, like a specter just came back to want me, and I was like, today, I need to like listen to an
hour and a half YouTube video on the making of the movie twenty nineteen and why it was a disaster. And so I'm not busy enough. I think it's I need more hobbies. And I need more productive uses of my time.
But I am now an encyclopedia on terrible CGI slash why you shouldn't try and make very weird Broadway musicals into films.
Yeah, I was immediately like trying to connect the dots. I was like, oh, well, I think I remember that they used AI technology to remove the cat assholes from like was that one of the things where it was about to come out and they did a test screening and everyone's like, they're pink cat assholes are in our face the entire movie? Or are we going to just do that? And they went back and digitally removed them. But now, were you into the movie when it came out?
Were you anticipating it or you just kind of have it?
So I love I'm a dancer, so like I love musicals, and like you know, I was one of the only people that was like an ironically ex that thought.
Of the Cat's musicals.
I realized that's like four people who like actually would have wanted to see this.
And then the trailer came out and it was just so frightening.
What it was a really good example of is like in like AI and robotics, either term the uncanny Valley. This might be something you've heard of, this idea of like the closest something looks like to a human or to like a living creature, but like being different enough that you can tell, like it's not quite human, like
the creepy era it is. And so this original robotics experiment Matito Mari or the person who like writes this essay about this, used the example of like a mechanical hand that moves, and it's like, that's super creepy, like no one wants to see that. And all I could think of is this like essay from this Jepanese roboticist.
When I saw those cat humans things moving, and I was like, it's going to be so bad, like no one wants to see this, whether or not the pink households are there or not, you know, and they just end up being all smooth doubt, which is also awful.
So yes, it was a kind of terrifying disappointment.
Because yeah, there's kind of a streisand effect. I feel like people are like, but where are the assholes? You know what I mean? And then people are like, well we actually like h I don't know, might have been better with them, have you speaking of cats and an interesting, uh sort of obsession with them. Have you listened to your fellow compatriots podcast Guy Montgomery and Tim Batt's podcast called My Week with Cats where they keep watching Cats over and over and talking about it.
But it sounds exactly up my street.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've had them on the show. Guy is one of our favorite guests and fellow Kiwi and yeah, like to such an absurd podcast just keep revisiting cats over and over.
Yeah, I mean, have you listened to the iconic KIWI podcast who Shout on the Floor at my wedding with kind of viral? I still haven't listened to it yet, but that's also on my listening list.
Yeah, that's one that I've heard many times, be like have you come on? And all the write ups about it too are like it's absolutely the most riveting thing that we've listened to this year, is what I feel like most people say about that.
That's amazing. So are you how many viewings deep are you of twenty nineteen Cats or is it just like you watched it once and then it's all YouTube like explainers?
Oh yeah, I watched it once. I don't know if I could do it again, to be honest, like I did it once on like a transatlantic flight and that was you know, myself trapped in the metal tube. Had this moment with cats when I was like, oh, it is as bad as everyone said, And then now it's just extremely scathing movie reviews on YouTube and in print. So I'm like single handedly keeping the movie YouTube review economy alive at this point.
What is something you think is overrated?
Hmmm?
I mean I feel like pretty much anything TikTok tries to sell me, but particularly those like gigantic cups.
Those Stanley cups. I don't know if you've seen this, yeah, but they've gone so viral.
But they're like huge, and my dad used to take like a thermoust tumbler of that size out fishing for the day so that he would like have enough like tea or coffee to keep him going. But now I just see like normal people and then normal little walks like with a huge flask, and like, I don't get it. So if anyone can like sell me, like why why what is so attractive about these gigantic cups.
Around them?
I mean, that's what's important.
Doctor.
Yeah, I've ever heard of it.
The medical doctors don't come to me on the plane anything useful.
It's not the same screen. All right. I'm sorry I sent you so many medical questions earlier this week over email. Didn't realize that wasn't your area of expertise. I mean, it's like one of those weird It's just one of those consumer things that have taken over. It's like the era of like when I was a kid, like millennials and stuff, when everybody wanted like a slat bracelet or a Tamagatchi or a furbie like that or beanie babies. Like we're taking that into adulthood. And now it's like,
do you have all this Stanley fucking quenchers? Yeah, which is like a wild thing. But then also it's wild when it's done for the SEO, because when you search Stanley Cup, which is the like trophy for the National Hockey League, it's mostly overtaken by these fucking Stanley insulated bugs.
Yeah, I mean, it is wild though. Those are fifty dollars each of those things.
Yeah, yeah, they're like at least forty five, right, Yeah, get you in the door.
People are lining up the day before like to get an opportunity to pay forty five dollars for this thing that, as far as I could tell, is like has been available on the market for a long time, like the you know, just well insulated cups.
That thermist like that you're talking about, Doctor Carrey. That's like the like O. G. Stanley like item that people have that was like sort of like that minty green very like every work in person, every work in stiff sort of insulated thermist kind of thing.
We need a stan Lee stay on the show to just explain it to us, Like what is the what? What? What is so much better about the Stanley mug from like all the other insulated water carrying devices out there.
Yeah, all right, look zeit gang. If you're a Stanley, stan hit us up. We were interested hearing from you. And also I feel like there's a high likelihood that you are also involved in some other like completionist collecting hobby in childhood. I'm just guessing, you know, like before I was like I had all the fucking Pokemon cars, or like I had all the Beanie babies, Like it just has that same energy of being like gotta get
them all, gotta have them. If you're on that wave because I know some people just like them, but some people have like way too many.
Yeah, I'm like over here laughing at my wife for like be her most value valued object right now is a Stanley tumbler. She got it like a week and a half ago. She like wrote her name and was like, I will reward if if found because like she's really into it. And I was like wow, like what is why are you so obsessed? Just like I got in like right before, like I got it before everything sold out,
Like I really like this color way. And when she was like talking about the color, like the colorway of it, I was like, Oh, it's exactly how I am with shoes, Like I have absolutely no room to look down.
We all have things.
Yeah, shoes are more expensive. So yeah, Jordan's which were a thing that I was into when I was a kid. What is doctor McNerney? What is something you think is underrated?
Oh?
Well, I just finished watching with my husband season four of a show that I think is so underrated.
It's called for All Mankind. It's on Apple. Have you seen it?
I've heard of it, but I have not seen it.
Yeah, okay, well now I can pitch it.
I don't work for Apple for this show, just to be clear, although I should get commissioned now because I've pitched it so hard.
But it's like an alternative history of the space rate.
So the idea is like what happened if Russia got to the Moon first, and so space express and became this like major site of like investment and travel, And like, I'm like not one of those people who's super into space, Like I'm not someone who sneaks out a lot of space related sci fi.
But this was riveting.
It's so well acted, and every season it's a different decade, so it like starts in the nineteen sixties and the seventies, eighties, nineties and two thousands kind of mapping this alternate history of the world. And they've got lots of little like kind of like eat eggs, little plot twists and things
like that. So in this like alternate history, for example, this is like not a big spoiler, say, like the John Lennon is shot, but he doesn't die, so he's kind of still alive and like featuring a little plot point or like I think Margaret Thatcher gets assassinated by the IRA, or like it's like a lot of these like little turning points in history, they go differently, So I would recommend checking that out is a really great watch.
Okay, And this all happens because Russia gets to the moon. For like, as far as I can tell, the race to the Moon, the America got up there and there was like, ah, man, there ain't shit here. Turns out out there's a lot of dust. We discovered nothing. Is it? Just like the bragging rights kind of turns everything on its head.
Yeah, I think that they kind of portray that, like, not only I mean a lot of it is the bragging rights and the international politics of like, oh, we've got to be competing to show that we're more like technologically advanced, but also it shows like, yeah, how the technological advances that came from continuing to invest in space as well as the discoveries they make out they're part a slightly different course in human history, from like new
energy sources through to yeah, like new technologies for flight or for you know, cultivating life in different places. So it's just quite an interesting, like speculative future.
Yeah, I see, I love a speculative future.
I've I had Apple TV plus plus TV or whatever, and then I've I let the thing lapse, so then I'm like my I turn it on my like TV and they're like, oh, you don't got this anymore. But then I realized you basically get it for free if you buy like any Apple product anymore. And I recently like replaced my phone, so i'd be like, oh, yeah, I'll cash in my whatever three month period of freeness. I get to maybe check this one out because I just wasn't watching a lot of stuff on Apple TV.
But it's also because we talk about this all the time. There's just too many things to watch now. So I need, like, if people like you, who's opinion I respect, to come on and be like you gotta check this out. And I'm like, see that. I need something like that rather than seeing some Twitter account being.
Like this is the fucking dope as shit.
Ever, I need more human recommendations.
Yeah, human recommendation. Yeah. All right, Well we're going to talk about how AI stacks up to humans when we get back.
We'll be right back.
It's not really what we're going to talk about, but I wanted it to sound like I was good at my job, so I did like a transition.
That that sounded like yeah, that sounded like a show that I would listen to and we're back, We're back, and all right. So I had something happened over the weekend.
I just wanted to remember medic I just want you to look at this thing on my back.
Yeah.
I know you're not a medical doctor, but it's just I could just use your no. Uh. So I had one of my son's friend. My son is really too chess, and his friend was playing chess on his iPad and he my son asked who he was playing. He said, I'm playing AI instead of just like playing the computer. It was the first time I'd heard somebody refer to it as AI instead of playing the computer. And as
you know, we knew you're coming on. I was like looking at all the headlines and it felt like a lot of the stories that are are coming up are basically on the same continuum of progress of like things that the tech industry has been advancing towards for a
long time. And I'm I'm like starting to wonder if because because I think a lot of people have a hard time conceptualizing, like, so what exactly is AI though, And I think there's a lot of people like capitalizing off of that, because now it's like it's no longer just algorithms are making it hard to tell what is true and what isn't in on social media. Now it's like AI is gonna fuck up this election. Everybody. You know.
Miles was talking about how like CS was, you know, full of all these products that are like, yeah, but there's Ai in the rapid rehydration sports drink.
Everything said was posted in this weird way to be like, yeah, this thing and now it's got Ai in it, and you're like AI in it? What do you mean we're talking about. A coffee maker is like yeah, dude, he's got Ai in there, and everyone's like bathlessly being like oh my god, this new fucking thing has Ai in it.
But again it just sounds like algorithms. But also people are also I think also confusing like large, large language models for being like, oh, so the computer is gonna think like a person, and then are my coffee machine's gonna think like a human and problem solve like a barista versus like so I just stick a little brain in there, right, So I guess like the glibway of summarizing it would be that, like, you know, there were these large language models that impress people quite a bit,
and they've used that to change the word for like all tech advances to be just like AI for like branding purposes. Kind of.
I don't think that's true about all of it. And there's definitely some things that seem to be advancing more quickly than I'm comfortable with, and that I think people are comfortable with. But like, I guess just I'm curious to hear like your thoughts on that. As you're seeing so many stories and products and all these things, and children playing chess misusing the phrase AI, what are your thoughts.
I mean, my first thought when you were saying that about the sports drink, I was like, maybe the Stanley Cup.
Has AI in it.
That's why the virus plugging in the technical markets stargning
its quest for world domination. Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of those cases where two things can be true at once, Like it can be true that we've seen masive developments in large language models and generator of AI and other kinds of like you know, sort of big data projects, and at the same time, lots of firms are jumping on the AI train and marketing a lot of things is AI that you know, even if you somehow degree a decide on one definition of
what AI is, we would probably say that these things definitely aren't AI enabled in any way. And actually I spent like a couple of years interviewing scientists and engineers at this big tech firm, and one of the things that they were super concerned about was this exact problem.
So saying, you know, oh well.
Ten or fifteen years ago, we would have just called this a decision tree. Now we're calling it a That doesn't mean there's something wrong with that technology, but it does mean that maybe the way AI is being used is more to do with branding, more to do with selling it as a product, and less to do with its actual technical functions or what the tools can actually do.
So like a lot of my job as an AI ethicis is just like asking customers and people to just be a little bit more critical and ask those questions around can this tool actually do what it says on the ten What does it mean for something to BAI or AI powered?
And it's it going to actually help you get where you want to be?
Because you know, it actually doesn't matter if it has an AI function if like that AI function is not going to help you achieve your goal.
So, like an example of.
This is like a lot of tools, say AI powered hiring tools is an example, I know best, Like they'll say, okay, we have an AI function, right, so we use AI to help analyze say, like the words that the candidate uses in the interviews. But like a lot of these tools have like a toggle on off function, so you can just like turn the AI part off, which is
what a lot of companies will do. They'll buy in an AI powered tool, but then because that opens them up to a lot of liabilities if they actually use AI to process candidates, they'll just turn that bit off, so.
They kind of you know, try to have things both ways.
I think where you're getting a tool that seems really high tech, but you're like not actually using that function. So yeah, I think this kind of idea of AI as branding is also something that we should all really be a bit concerned about.
Yeah. Yeah, well, and also just seems like there's this weird thing too where companies are like, yeah, we use AI and other times don't fucking tell them we're using AI, Like you know what I mean, It's like what the fuck is it? Because recently there's this video game Apex Legends that there was like some art artwork that came out for like a new thing evolving Final Fantasy, and people were like, wait, I think this is like generative AI was used for some of these like models because
like the fingers don't look right, et cetera. And it was like a whole thing where it's like embarrassed to admit or shouldn't have used AI. So there's there's like this interesting balancing act where people like, don't use it there, Yes, I'm glad my insulated mug has AI in it, and but we're but like we're still kind of finding like what is useful, what is acceptable, what is embarrassing or whatever. So yeah, it just feels like so many things are still up in the air in regards to its use.
Yeah.
Yeah, And I think you're right.
There's this interesting dynamic where like, on the one hand, I saw a lot of critiques on TikTok, which is again how I spend most of my time sort of mindlessly scrolling past mugs and other various bits and pieces. But there were a lot of critiques of that new Disney film, right, wish, which is kind of blending two D animation three D animation. And one of the critiques people kept saying was like the song sounds like it's
AI generated, or the art looks AI generated. It was being used differently in this like quite derogatory way, Whereas you're right, like a lot of AI startups sell themselves in the idea that like wear an AI first company. I think there was a study that was done with it, like a few years ago, with like European based AI startups which showed i think, you know, like something like up to forty percent of those AI startups like didn't that use AI.
They were just marketing themselves as AI startups.
So there's a lot of kind of you know, like you know, weird sort of misleading advertising going on. But then it can also lead to some like really strange other phenomena like the Wizard of Odds phenomenon, which is when you actually have companies having humans pretending to be AI, not the other way around, so that they look more tiped forward. So you think you're talking to an AI chatpot and you're not. You're actually talking to a human
pretending to be an AI. So it's kind of just viraled down.
So also, isn't one of Amazon's big companies called the Mechanical Turk, Like based on the there was like an early instance where a robot was like really good at playing chess and woe like beating all these people at chests, and it turned out they just put a chess master inside a like robot suit and that's who was beating everybody. Like it feels like they're knowingly doing that. They're you know, yeah, they're they're trying to make it seem like they are
using advanced technology when they're not. I think it like that.
One of the big questions that I've had all along is like in reading articles interviewing like Sam Altman or these people who are at the forefront in these massive positions of power in the tech industry and specifically around AI, like they really seem to be willing to sell the threat and like evoke like terminator to type imagery when they're talking about like, you know, I think the last time You're on we talked about how Sam Altman, the head of Open Eie what like in a New Yorker
interview is like, yeah, keep like keep a cyanide capsule on me, you know, just in case the robots take over and I gotta I gotta go because I don't want to see what that looks like.
Yeah, I don't want my Stanley Cup to revolt against me.
And it's like, well, he of and of all people knows that that's like not a threat right now, like at this moment. But he is doing this dance that we're talking about right where he it is driving major massive volume for him to convince people with money that like the thing they're doing is not part of is not on this continuum with like past technological advances. It's this new thing that's going to like come in and like you know, be a magical HyperIntelligence.
Yeah.
And I think there's something particularly ironic when it is people like sam Oltman, who you know, may very well actually believe all of these things, right, I don't know personally, I mean, I don't want to say, oh, he's just sort of trying to deliberately create this hype like in a very cynical way.
Maybe he really does believe that. But surely if you really.
Thought, like, oh, there's actually like a meaningful risk that robots could take over and I'm gonna have to.
Take my site an eye tablet.
When you just stop investing and making these things, you know, these are people who have, like actually do have the power to shape the direction of tech development. And I think there's something particularly ironic, you know, quite hypocritical about scaremongering about AI and AGI while also actively orienting your company towards building it and also simultaneously like undercutting regulation.
So like, at the same time that Oltman was going really public about the risks of artificial intelligence, open AI was like simultaneously lobbying for weaker regulation with the EUAI Act. And I think we see this a lot with Elon Musk, for example, warning around the dangers of AI based simultaneously
firing toward this whole ethical AI team. So to some extent, you know, I'm not saying that they deliberately trying to weaponize this narrative, but there's just a real mismatch between what they're saying and like what they're actually doing and the domains that they can control.
Yeah, at the same time, the people at the forefront of you know, understanding what climate change was going to look like, We're at Exxon and Chevron, and you know, they they were perfectly willing to be like this is fucking bad, you guys. It's not our fault, it's your fault.
Maybe you should switch to paper straws. I think so. Yeah, the consensus among people like that, Like I was in Davos this past week, and I don't know if you guys were there and just talking to some of the people there, and I was not in Davos.
But the.
Like the idea that sure, we can have these ethical concerns, but that's the progress and like what capitalism tells us to do is inevitable, Like there's no there's no arguing with that. It's just like we're going to always do what delivers the most shareholder value. Yeah, and like anything else is naive.
On the World Economic Forums website, like four takeaways from you know, like the gathering in Davos, Like one of them was talking about like AI is all the buzz, and a lot of it was definitely focused on like this is how like we're gonna fucking boost global GDP, this is how we can close the gaps in like the lack of skilled labor, Like it's all gonna happen. Then this philosopher spoke like on something about like what we completely lose our touch to know what it means
human anyway, that was like a whole other thing. But then this other person came on to talk about like they really like sort of nodded at maybe there's something to contend with here, but I feel like more of the takeaway was like this is y'all, this is how we're also gonna get more richer, please, So it's yeah, like it's they're definitely trying to do many things at the same time, which is like boosting in our in
our sort of like Zeitgeist. They consciousness that like AI is like the fucking like the new pluton like uranium plutonium rod that can power everything and also destroy us, but also like good for profits. So it feels like this omni issue and it just depends on your own sort of like your sort of dispositions to sort of figure out like what the which version of it you're seeing.
And then recently, I feel like the latest thing I saw as it relates to like politics, because that's where I see like it having the most impact right now.
Like I've seen on YouTube, so many like mid Journey created thumbnails to like make it look like certain things are happening in the world that aren't just as a way to get people to click, but also like in New Hampshire, where there's a primary apparently there was like a fake Joe Biden robo call that people were trying to suspect whether it was like used through some kind
of AI voice tool or an impressionist or whatever. That that's where I feel like we're starting to see the real kind of stuff impact our real world rather than being like no one works at McDonald's anymore. I guess all that to say is is that you know, from your perspective, that's why I'm like, okay, doctor carry Like I get it. AI is in our toasters now or whatever.
I can put that aside. But you know, like when I think that's the for I think for usespecially in the US with this election you're happening, that's where I see like a lot of potential for like just it's just really these tools that allow people to add to like a media narrative very easily in an un compelling way. That feels like one of the most potent things we're
going to see this year. But I'm am, I off, like, what from your perspective, what are the things we should be looking at, or maybe some things that are distractions.
No, No, I mean I think you're definitely on there when it comes to the meaningful risks posed by AI
and its ability to help generate disinformation. And because we've got I think, over seventy elections this year, so it's a huge year internationally for elections, including as you mentioned, the US election, and we've seen kind of the past few elections in the US and also elsewhere, like the way that disinformation and kind of the mass spreading of forms of political ideology has been hugely damaging I think in many ways to our information society and the way
that we conduct political elections. And we've seen unfortunately examples
of specifically AI generated misinformation. But I think actually it was in the Slovakian elections a few weeks ago where there were a number of AI generated clips and deep fakes, including one where one of the candidates was I think the audio was edited in a way, but it appeared that they said they were going to double the price of beer, which in that context was like a huge which kind of outcry, like really very very damaging to things.
President's so important. Yeah, and so people were like.
Whoa you know, and so, you know, we do see examples of this At the same time, I think, you know, for me, this is one of those classic examples where tech illuminates a problem that's already there, right, so AI can provide people the tools to make more convincing misinformation, maybe to make that more scale. These things are both bad, but I think we need to say, actually, what makes people vulnerable the misinformation in the first place? What makes
people vulnerable to fake news? Why do people still choose to consume and share fake news even when they know it might not be factually true? Like these are all things where again, you know, I think technology is often treated as a domain just for computer scientists or mathematicians.
But this is why we need psychologists, and we need people from the humanities and the social scientists, we need political scientists to try and understand, you know, what makes in communities vulnerable to these kinds of narratives and ideas. And I think until we do that and really prioritize this kind of research, building bitter media literacy and bitter resilience to these narratives, like, we're not going to necessarily be able to find a quick tech fix.
Yeah, I would just stand. I would just like accept going eight years into the past in terms of like how much media there was, like how much money was being spent on media, because it's just such a fucking just waste land out there these days, like all all of the legacy media outlets are just gone or not spending money they are they seem as likely to be using AI tools. Like I got this headline from the La Times this weekend sent through to my phone. The
headline was could your life could use more? Wonder question mark from the La Times, Like it's I don't know that they're using AI, Like maybe it's just a typo, but like I don't know, Sports Illustrated like we found out about them getting caught using AI, uh and it was you know, the articles are just there and like
saying nothing. So like it's just this weird situation where the people who I think typically we would be counting on to be like gatekeepers for this sort of like misinformation are also the ones who are like trying to get by using the technology to replace humans.
Yeah.
So it's just a such a weird environment and it just feels like we're facing a blizzard of of misinformation now instead of you know, something that you can like point to and be like, okay, here's one thing, one lie that they're trying to spread. Now it's like there's forty a day. Basically could you life use more?
Wonder could And you're like, mom, maybe, but like it's also I feel like it's just accelerated just degradation of like journalism in general, and like, you know, look at what happened to Pitchfork in other places, or like I think a lot of media companies do a look at it is like, yeah, sure, this website that used to have all these great journalists, people don't come there for like their human writing anymore. It's just a brand that
brings people to click on things. And if I can see that sort of tent with all this fake tent or content as y'all call it, that people will just go continue to click, it is like, and that's how we make money. It's not even that what's written there is important. It's just that I can create a little click website that people do clickies on all day and
fuck all the human like contribution aspect to it. And yeah, then we're left with more and more people getting laid off and just these like really bizarre like you can
tell it's just wild that you can tell pretty quickly. Now, I feel like when I'm starting to read something with a I'm like you're leaning into these like very specific details so much in the writing or it's like it reminds me again of like when I used to bullshit on an essay and high school and be like George Washington, who was also known as our nation's first president, and like just adding all this detail about George Washington rather than like getting to the point or commentary about what
he did. And so yeah, like it's just I feel like those are the other meaningful ways that we see things going downhill.
But it's yeah, yeah, I mean I feel like just the sad way you said, yeah, it was like a pretty good summary. So I feel going on Twitter nowadays, like I just, you know, all my joy from that
platform has gone. But I think you point out something really important, which is while the revenue model for news sites is clickspace and advertising base, like I think we're not necessarily also going to see a solution to this problem because unfortunately, you know, and I know this from doing like my own social media promotion with the podcast
I do the Good Robot. The thing that generates money is controversy effectively, like nothing does as well as the post that I do on TikTok where someone has, you know, a go at me because they don't like my particular interpretation of Star Trek or whatever. It can be pretty good null, but that as soon as a fight starts in your comments, that's when a video starts to get views.
And so, you know, Kathy O'Neil, the AI ethicist, has a really interesting book on this called The Shame Machine, which he talks about who profits from public shaming, who profits from like these big Twitter pilons, Like it's big tech, it's firms like Twitter or x or whatever that will inevitably be called next year. But you know, it's the big platforms, and it's not the people who are doing
the piling on or the people getting piled on. And so I think we see kind of a similar thing with a lot of these news media organizations, which is when the incentive is just to get as much visibility as possible.
Rather than to be informing.
You know, providing you know, yeah, true information. You know, I think we're not going to find a solution.
Yeah, all right, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and talk about maybe some good things, some good possibilities, like is good technology possible? Still, we will be right back, and we're back. And one of the things that your new book, doctor mcnernie, you talk about is what is good technology and is it possible? And I feel like I'm so used to this hyper capitalism paradigm that I don't think we can have technology
without having like loss of jobs and free will. But I don't know, I've seen this like recent reappraisal of like the Luddite movement, which is just a phrase that I grew up using to be like anybody who didn't want to use a computer and you know, was slightly resistant to technology technological progress. And now people like pointing out, no, they didn't just want to destroy all machines. They were focused on the ones that took jobs and led to
wage losses. But we turned them into like old man screaming at cloud because of our paradigm of like, yeah, but that's counterprogress, that's unrealistic. Like so what is my closed off capitalist mind missing out on when I think about like the direction that technology can take like what are the good things that aren't just like basically AI being McKinsey.
Yeah, no, no, I mean, first, I do love this reappraisal of the Loutist movement. I know Brian Merchant has a book out called Blood in the Machine which is like specifically try to reframe the Luddites, this movement. It gives what a mation in the UK as the origins of the revolution against Big Pick. And I do love this because I do think the Ludyites have been unfairly
maligned as these tech haters. But yeah, second, you know so myself and my work wife, doctor Eleanol Drage co edited this book called The Good Robot, which is the same as our podcast on this provocative question, and we mean it very much as like a suggestion and idea, not like an inevitability that technology, you know, maybe can be good in.
A lot of spaces. That definitely doesn't sound like.
A particularly radical idea, particularly in the like tech type spaces we've discussed, but like for people like us who spend our day to day looking at these really awful effects technology like either because they have been designed to be really awful, like predictive policing, tools, or because they're being exploited and used in like really harmful ways, like the way that technologies used to perpetrate gender based violence.
It can be really easy to be unable to see any kind of positive possibilities for a lot of these new technologies. But while I definitely, you know, think that there's a real place for just the total refusal of people like the Luodites or the neo Luodite movement, which is kind of trying to bring back a lot of these ideas. We want to challenge ourselves and all the guests we have in our podcasts to say, like, you know, what, does what would it mean for technology to be good?
And so for us that's feminist and pro justice and afformed by all these different kinds of ideas about equality and fairness and also what would that look like sort of grounded in our everyday lives. So for me, for example, a lot of thinking about good technology is trying to reclaim technologies that we might not think of as being very like high tech, often because they've been associated with women.
So like I knit, and I have a pair of knitting needles on the table next to me, and knitting is often not understood as being like a very high
tech practice. But in the nineteen eighties, when people are trying to get more girls and women back into computer science, there was this idea that if you can knit, you can code, because if you can read a knitting pattern, then you can use a coding program like and so sometimes now computer science conferences you'll see people put a knitting pattern up on the screen and just say what coding language is this, And then usually only one or
two people, often one of the few female attendees will say, oh, that's a knitting pattern, because they're the only ones that can understand that kind of code. So I think there's something really beautiful and like reclaiming those particular kinds of technologies that have been maybe excluded from the way we talk about tech on my again work wife who co edited this book, well she edited most of it actually, so who really did the heavy lifting on this book.
Eleanor talks about the whisk as her example of a good technology, and she says she loves the way it looks, she likes how she can use it in all these different ways, and she says, you know, she's sure there's ways that you can misuse this but you know, she's it's something that just like makes her life better and
is designed well in a very simple way. I unfortunately have already undermined this good technology for her because I then told her about when I was about fourteen, my school went to a trip at the Technology Museum in Auckland. It's good motet if you're from New Zealand. Everyone's in Auckland's been to this museum because it's not that much to do in Aland for a school trip. And then one of the girls in my class wound the hair of another girl into like an antique egg beta.
Then they couldn't get her out. She got stuck.
You know, children can make full technologies bad. But apart from that, you know, I think like trying to find these like little examples of technology that aren't about the kind of like big hype of AI, but maybe bring us back into the ways that we use technology to reshape how worlds and make things a bit better.
Is what I like to do with this question.
Is when you think of like, you know, I think that the one version is like, well, this generative AI, like it democratizes certain things, and I think while on one hand, it may allow people access to like create things that they haven't before. It also makes other Like you're saying, it's the use of it that makes things that sort of ultimately determines whether or not a technology is good or you know, used in a positive or
negative way? Is there like when you look at all like for all the people that are preaching and proclaiming about how AI is opening the door to something new, what like as it relates to sort of these law large language models, what are the ways that that can't Like is that more about a use case or we need to lean more into the regulations to make sure
that AI isn't wielded by nefarious powers? Like how do you look at that specific technology and think, Okay, while there's definitely like a lot of biased or weird uses of it, like, there's also another way to look at this and not just kind of like lean into the skynet version.
Yeah, I mean I would take this in a lot
of different ways. Like my first and sort of most important route in is I would say who makes these models and who has control over them and who can afford to because you know, one of the big changes I think that's happened in the last few years is that language models have gone from much smaller models that maybe like one researcher with a reasonable budget could train themselves a lab, to being these absolutely huge models that you need a massive amount of energy, a massive amount
of data, and a massive amount of money to create. And so what that means is that companies with a move advantage like Google, like open ai are the ones who can afford to make these models. And I think increasingly it's going to be harder and harder as the models get bigger for small firms to enter that market. So what we end up with them is a monopoly, and I think we're starting to see some of the effects of that monopoly right now, where you have a few big tech firms kind of having a hand on
like most of the most powerful and effective models. And so I think like even though people say, oh, this is going to democratize AI because everyone can generate text with these models, It's like, yes, but you know, very few people are profiting from it. And also, you know, I think very few people then have control as well over how long we're able to use those models for one day, will they just all be turned off or will they be shifted in a way, you know, so
I think there's still kind of a concentration of control. Yeah, And I think second, like you mentioned kind of biases and like weird stuff in the models super important, Like large language models are trained on data scrape from the Internet, and that can be not the best place, as.
We all know.
It can be right for all kinds of information, but it's also full of a lot of exclusions. So like, for example, again when I was working talking to these data scientists and engineers at this big tech firm with us, things like, oh, well, where do you pull your training data from? And they'd say Wikipedia, for example, and you know, would say, oh, but like Wikipedia is not a very
equitable place. Like women are really really vaskally underrepresented on Wikipedia pages, both in terms of who writes them and also in terms of who gets Wikipedia pages written about them. So the physicist Jess Waded here in the UK has had this long running project where she just adds a woman to Wikipedia like every day, and she's done that, I think now for like years. But that it kind of just shows like how inequitable though that distribution is.
If you're training a model on data from Wikipedia, implicitly, you might not be trying to do this in any way, like you're also training that model to believe in a world where say, like women make up of the population not fifty percent plus. So there's a lot of like
bio season harms that come just from exclusion. Another example of this is, you know, I have a good friend who is a linguist, and something she talks about is community that don't have written languages are already automatically just not going to be able to partake and whatever benefits might come from large language models, whether that's signed languages or languages that are only oral, and so you know, I think there's just a lot of different ways that
even beyond these kind of immediate harms of like the AI has produced something that we think is really offensive or gross that we could see the use of large language models maybe creating further inequities.
Now, a lot of the AI like promise, like the developments that are being promised. So even at Davos, like this past Davos, at this page I had to miss unfortunately, and I hate to miss Davos because I learned so much there.
But you've been to four Davi.
Havn't you Devia my fourth dim was the best man. We all did mally and just had a cuddle puddle. But Sam Altman, I don't know if he's like consciously scaling back people's expectations, but he was like, soon you might just be able to say what are my most important emails today and have AI summarize them. I was just like, all right, Like I doesn't like outlook already have an offer, like offer a shitty version of that already.
So it's like it just feels like the versions of AI that I'm hearing, Like there's this older New Yorker article that was like, I'm not that worried about AI. I think it's from like the kill us all perspective. I think it's going to be like a little McKenzie in everyone's pocket, Like it's going to be this like economic optimization tool that like everybody has access to, and
that's going to just make everything shitty and boring. So I don't know, like I'm just curious for your thoughts on that, and like if there are examples of just like functionality from AI that actually like capture your imagination where you're like, oh shit, that would be like cool, that's a cool idea of like something that would be fun and you know, improve people's lives, even if it's just like make their video games better or whatever.
Yeah, I mean maybe the email thing appeals to some people. Personally, I want fewer emails. I don't want summary of my emails. I just want my inbox to quietly shut down through the hours of like five pm, to like send a AM every day and just be like I'm email free. And then the run at em Bogass I think has this idea of hyper employment, which is like the technologies that say they're going to make our lives easier and more stress free actually make our lives much busier and
we now waste a lot more time. So he talks about emails as a way of, you know, saying like, oh, we're gonna have far fewer meetings and we're gonna like have spend less time like sending each other letters or whatever. Sorry I'm from the post internet generation, but then now
we spend like so much time like answering emails. And I think AI feels a bit like this, like when people say like AI is going to save you so much time, I'm like, you are not a teacher an educator, because the amount of time we have wasted this year trying to figure out what to do with AI generated essays like absolutely not. Yeah, and so I feel like things like the AI email summarized I since could end
up in a very similar appile. But you know, kind of to come to the more positive side of your question, like what makes me excited, I think a couple of things. Like one is like anything where like AI can genuinely scale up in a way that is not too ecologically damaging or costly a process that is already going well, where the statistics and the procedures in place are working for us. Because AI is able to scale things, you know,
it's not necessarily able to do new things always. So if we know we have a sorting or categorization process that works, that's I think AI computer vision.
These kinds of systems can be really useful.
Where it doesn't work is when you're asking AI to do something that like we don't actually have good processes in place to do so, like when a tool says, oh, I can like power candidate's personality from their face, Like.
No, you can't do that. That's just a straight up phrenology. Please don't do that.
But also Secondly, like, you know, if we had easy ways of telling if someone was going to be good for a job, like humans will be able to do it already, Like this is a much much more complicated than you're making it out to be. A second kind of use I think I find really exciting or makes me like you're really happy. I think it's particularly tools around trying to kind of like support particular community as needs in a way that is really driven by that community.
So for example, in New Zealand where I'm from, there's been a lot of effort put into different kinds of like AI powered tools and data sovereignty programs around Maudi traditions, the Maudi language or three a Maudi and like I think, you know, this is an example of where like that's been led by Maudi people and is in a response to kind of the way that in colonial New Zealand, like there a Maudi was like very deliberately stamped out, and there's been a huge movement to try and kind
of protect and revive the language. And I think it's like when your projects like this that makes me a bit more hopeful about the way that AI machine learning could be used to you know, promote these pro justice projects. But you know, I think those projects that always have to exist in a little bit of tension with like
big tech. And we've seen this like with other organizations, for example like Masacana, which is the amazing grassroots organization which aims to bring the like four thousand different African languages into our natural language processing models or large language models.
You know.
But I know that these kinds of groups often do struggle with this idea like do we commercialize because then will we be brought into this hyper capitalist world? Do we keep this to ourselves? But yeah, I think it's it is important sometimes to step back and be like, there are really interesting community projects which are trying to use these techniques and these kinds of knowledge in ways that push back against like the email summarizing bot.
Right, is there a historical present? Like I was reading some articles about the competition between the United States and China and how the US is like trying to freeze export of like certain chips to China because they think that will allow China to catch up with them, And it feels like we're there's going to be inevitably an argument where they're like, we need to just go pedal to the floor on AI development because this is the
new Manhattan Project. Trust us, you talk a lot about just like this, this alternate possibility of like what what if we didn't use this technology for hypercapitalism and militarism. Are there examples where, like from history that you're aware of, where like technology hasn't been has successfully been like protected from those sorts of things. Are there any even a very small examples where people have been able to keep technology like fenced off from that sort of thing.
Yeah, no, I mean this is something that really preoccupies me. I spend a lot of time mapping and tracking with the AI now institute this narrative of an AI arms race between the US and China and how that story is super damaging because it can cause us like race to the bottom and leads to us trying to develop AI faster and faster without necessarily trying to make it
better or safer. And do you know, I think we've seen some positive movements when it comes to AI regulation recently, from like the US's commitment or declaration around AI through to the Bletchley Declaration in the UK and the EUAI Act. But at the same time, you know, I think that this sort of racing narrative like still looks and it's still sometimes used to try and push back against regulatory measures,
particularly by people with investments in big tech. But yeah, at the same time, I also think this question of, like, can we look to history to find ways to tell different stories about AI maybe bring about different futures is something that really interests me. I think the comparison that is most often made between AI and another technology when it comes to like regulation and governance is nuclear and
specifically nuclear weapons. Like and like you mentioned, Manhattan Project, suddenly kind of this sort of language of like an Oppenheimer moment when it comes to AI, and this kind of idea of being like the cusp of a new cold water will be AI driven rather than nuclear weapons driven is a very common media narrative. But something I try to do, like with my own research, is to try and look for and support different kinds of historical analogies that maybe offer maybe less kind of less hawkish
futures when it comes to international politics. So for example, Maya Indira Ganish, who's a fantastic researcher at Believer Human Center where I'm at, looks to like histories of feminists cyber governance in the early two thousands, as a way of saying, like, actually, we have a lot of precedents for thinking about the ethics of the internet. Why aren't
we bringing this into thinking about AI? Or Matischmas, who's a legal researcher, looks the histories of technological restraints, So like, when did we choose not to make a technology even though we could because we thought that it actually wouldn't be good for the world and for societies. And so I think, you know, like making sure we have examples outside of nuclear because wild nuclear can be still useful in some ways, Like it's only one metaphor, and metaphors
are inherently limited. They tell us something about the world, but they can't tell us everything. And I thinks having these alternative historical examples can be really useful for thinking a bit differently.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's just funny because in the end, it always feels like thing with potential to create like unforeseen levels productivity or power. It's like and then we made it a weapon.
Then we like put it in the bomb, you know, kind of.
Like and yeah, like we really do have to sort of break out of that thinking. I mean, I wonder precisely because our brains are filled with sky Net and Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project, that that's we're just We're just in this really weird pattern of always looking at something that has the potential to unlock new levels of something are inherently going to always be like, but how does how do our enemies kill us with it? And
then we begin to lose the plot there. So yeah, I'm I'm yeah, look to these other examples to try and again open my mind to looking at it less of like and then how they make and then how they make global domination with that?
Right, Yeah, I mean I think it's either it's like how do we kill someone with it? Or as I think the history of like how tech is represented in Hollywood would show us like how do we have sex with it? And this is like a very classic trip in sci fi, right, It's like you get like a dude in his basement who makes like a sex spot. And I remember interviewing Jack Harbuston, who's like this very famous feminist and queer theorist with Eleanor on the podcast,
and he was talking about the film X Markina. Have you seen this since from like twenty fourteen. It's like a kind of a kind of an indie film, but had quite a lot of prestige I think success particularly like.
Tech Circles, Yeah for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, And so I remember we were talking about x Markina and Jack Harbison was saying like it sort of shows like the limits of the imagination, like particularly like the tech pro imagination that he has like all this expertise at his fingertips, all this data and he basically just makes like sex robots and like that's really.
Good, really thing to do with it.
And I think, you know, to some extent, like we're still a little bit trapped in that imagination, which is why I think like both like different projects to do with AI, but also different stories about AI are really crucial, right.
Yeah, Yeah, we have to get out of the fuck or fear paradigm. Right that we have the technology, it's going to do one of the two, man, So yeah, we need a new ways.
I'm here to do two things, fuck something or kill because I'm scared of it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, doctor Kerry mcinernie, what a pleasure having you back on the Daily Geist. Where can people find you?
Follow?
You all that good stuff.
You can find me at Carrie A.
Mcinernie on Twitter slash x reluctantly still there, I know those are around. That's the Good Robot Book, which you can find at Bloomsbury for pre order. It'll be out next month, I think, also on Amazon, but yes, please take a look if you're interested in all things feminism and technology.
Amazing and is there a work of media that you've been enjoying.
Oh gosh, all that's coming to mind right now is this tweet that I saw that I just moved to London quite recently, and it was a tweet where someone had said should I like stay in bed or get out of bed and inevitably spend one hundred and forty dollars?
And I feel like that's literally my life right now.
I just spend all my time deciding like do I risk going outside? And this very beautiful but very expensive city I've been enjoying that.
Yeah, it's uh, it's funny too because even comparatively, like coming from la I'm like, man, I wish there was London prices here. Yeah.
The US is bad right now right now, and it's gonna get better one day. I kicks in.
Yeah, exactly. Can a I bring the prices down? No, unfortunately, but like it's funny too because we were just on the heels of like that story that came out about like, yeah, a lot of the cost of living of ills that we're feeling because of greed flation and really nothing to do with anything else aside from companies being like, yeah, yeah, we can squeeze them.
Let's squeeze them. If only there was a daily comedic news podcast that has been saying that for years.
That makes me very mad. And if there is, let us know about that podcast. Yeah, that sounds like a good show. Miles.
Where can people find you as their working media you've been enjoying?
Uh yeah, let's see. You can find me at Miles of Gray, at all the app based platforms. You can find us Jack and Miles on our basketball podcast Miles and Jack Got Mad map please, And if you like a bit of ninety day reality trash, you can check me out on four to twenty day Fiance that I
do with Sofia Alexandra. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see a tweet I like this one is from the hype with five four wise tweeted boarding a flight, a guy is trying to sit down in seat sixteen D because that's his seat, but there's a lady already sitting there. He asks if she's in the right seat, and she says, no, I'm actually fifteen D, but sixteen is my lucky number,
So do you mind if I stay here? And he goes, what, it's a wild like we always see stories like this or people like just on like just out for vibes purposes, like do you mind if I, like don't sit in my seat and because I just like a window better, Like huh no.
No, this is my pet peek.
I'm generally a pretty easy switch on the on the plane, I don't I don't really give a fuck. I mean, obviously if I'm sitting next to my kids, but like if if it's just me, I'll switch with you. Yeah, yeah, you can target me weird vibes people, I'll switch with you. I'll be like, oh, you seem attached to it.
I mean, I get like, if I'm just sitting in an identical seat just in a row behind, I guess not, but it's just so weird for the person that sort. It just irks me a bit. Is that you feel that you are entitled to your vibe seat.
God, Like, what it must be like to live in a head like that though, Yeah, goddamn.
I would be like what would happen if I said, no, the plane goes down right, The plane goes down right, the plane goes down right? Yeah, then you know what, I'm not feeling too great, So you know what, I think I want my original seat. Thanks get your asked to fifteen D doctor mcnernie. You were saying that's your pet peeve? Is somebody try really is?
Because I'm like a we towel of a person. So someone just like sits in my seat and it's like, this is my seat. Now, I'm like, I resent you so much? But also am I really.
Going to pick a fight? But what if you're just like, what sixteen is my lucky number? Oh it's crazy who's going to win on that?
Yeah?
But no, I resent that the person that tweeted I'm with you, Yeah my seat please?
I mean I get to like, like from jack your perspectives, like whatever, it's not that big of a deal for me to like sit there. But there's also just this part of like how quickly the world just owed you everything.
Mm hmmm, Oh, I will be sitting in my new seat for the entire flight, sweating with anger at them to keep it inside, and I'll have a summer later on.
Like you know what, I'm going to say something, ladies and gentlemen, we are making our descent, so if you'd like, please put your seat back. I should have said something, should have said something next.
My seat's twenty seven c right across from the laboratory.
Okay, the stink seat over in stinc hut tweet.
I've been enjoying. Something that got retweeted a lot was this tweet from Emily K tweeted. The thing about Taylor Swift is that she so perfectly encapsulates through her lyrics the interior lives of women. It's why we all can't stop listening. We're all saying, wait, you felt that way, We were all feeling this way. Do men have someone like that? And then metal dot t xt responded we do, yeah, and screen capped the chorus from the boys are back in town, which God, which reads the boys are back
in town. The boys are back in town. I said, the boys are bagging down, the boys are backing down, Like seven times. I didn't realize that said it so many times in a row. So yeah, we got that one cover. Yeah, you want to know how men's minds work. We're just excited that the boys are back in town, and that's basically it. You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram.
We have a Facebook fampage and a website, Daily zeiguist dot com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes where we link off to the information that we talked about today's episode, as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do we think people might enjoy?
Uh? It's rainy here in La. I was just I've been listening to some Alex, some jazz, you know, some saxophone from Joe Henderson, who's a great sax player. This is a track called black Narcissus. Uh, and just a good just a nice rainy day song just to have on and just look out your window, do some reading, whatever whatever you want to do. But yeah, this is it Joe Henderson Black Narcissus.
All right, we will look off to that footnotes Today. Zaike is a production by Heart Radio. For more podcast from My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio, ap Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That's gonna do it for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and we'll talk to you all then Bye bye. She drank a chop and pods