​​Why Are So Many Books Being Banned? - Beyond the Scenes

get deeper into the origins of the problem. When we do that with Daily Show producers, writers, correspondents and expert guests who know a hell of a lot more about it than us to help us break it down. Heaven listen, Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into topics and segments that originally

aired on this show. That this is what this podcast is, all right, Like you go grocery shopping, right and you've been got all the groceries you need, and you're putting everything up there on the little conveyor belt, and then you look around and you see a national enquired talking about the royal family, and then you see some candy, and then you see some breath mits you realize your breath sting, and then next thing you know, you've got

all these extra snacks and snickers and butterfingers and tobal roans, and you just throw it all in the cart. That's what this podcast is, the extra thing you didn't know you need, but it made your day that much more enjoyable. Today we're talking about book bands, especially bands and challenges on books for children and young adults and schools and local libraries. Here with me to discuss this today and to discuss Band Books Week, we have Debra Caldwell Stone,

director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. Debra, Hello to you, Glad to be here, Roy, thanks for inviting me. And we also have George M. Johnson, author of All Boys Aren't Blue, a memoir manifesto that has appeared on too many band and challenge book lists, and the honorary chair for Band Books Week. George, how you doing with your band asks? I'm good today, Thanks for asking.

All right, So Debra want to start with you. I have a lot to ask you, George about your book, But first ever, let's just set up the whole issue in a totality. Now, it seems like every other day is something else social media or a news story or about a school district trying to ban a book. Let's just talk about what the actual baseline problem is and

what we're seeing. Well, what we're seeing our public school boards and public libraries removing books because someone in the community doesn't like the ideas or the topics of the books, which is absolutely contrary to the First Amendment UM and Everyone's right to choose what they want to read in libraries.

What's worse, it seems to be an organized campaign by conservative advocacy groups that want to limit our ability to think about particular issues um And and George is what is kind of a double whammy because what's being targeted our books dealing with the lives and experiences of lgbt q i A persons and the lives and experiences of black persons and persons of color. UM. There seems to

be a particular animus for this. We're seeing legislation, We're seeing assaults on school board meetings, UH, threats being directed at librarians and educators. People afraid to go to their cars after board meetings because of what's going on. We actually just had a drag Queen Bingo teen event canceled here in the Chicago suburbs this week because of the

rising threats against it. So we're seeing a real wave of censorship that's targeting really the lives and experiences of marginalized persons and opportunities for them to stand on the public stage. From who, Deborah, Is this from the school boards? Is this from their parents? Is it's just some mid term issue that's coming from a bunch of Republican zeal It's like, who are making these calls to have the

books banned? Well, we're seeing groups like Moms for Liberty, Parents Defending Education and No Left Turn and Education uh. And there's other so called parents rights groups that are more local, like Purple for Parents in Indiana that uh

make up lists of bad books. They want to narrow the opportunities for reading and education for young people in particular, um and they go to school board meetings, they go to library board meetings, use public comment to focus on one paragraph or one image in a graphic novel and try to claim that this is pornography or this is bad for young people, harmful to students or minors, um

and they demand the immediate removal of the book. They even use false framing around the idea that this is pornography. UM and school boards elected officials are responding to it in part because I think it is a political wedge issue. During the mid terms, we saw that Glenn Young Cain was successful and part in Virginia and winning that gubernatorial seat because uh, he focused on a parent who was unhappy that her seventeen year old Honors English student had

to read Tony Morrison's Beloved. She thought it wasn't fit reading for a seventheen year old going to college, and so she made a commercial for Governor Duncan and they noticed that. So we're seeing it used across the country. As a parent, it's tough to catch everything. So when my son showed me his reading assignment, my heart sunk. It was some of the most explicit material you can imagine. Glenn Young can he listens, He understands parents matter. Join

me in voting for Glenn. How do you all fight back with this? How does the a l A fight back against this? Because if this is a political issue and it's starting to come up, you know in terms of legislation right now, how are you all able to support the local libraries and schools to push back on this, you know, for now at least, what's the most you can do for now to push back on this issue.

From our end for the association, we do our best to provide one on one assistance to librarians and educators who are dealing with these book bands UM assisting them with the process of addressing the complaints from these groups and individuals who are being who are activated by social media usually UM and. Then we have resources about best

practices and things like that. We have state chapters on the ground two that are able to provide resources and support to individual libraries UH and we also do things like we have a merit We have something called the Leroy c Merit Humanitarian Fund, So if a librarian finds that their employment is being harmed or affected, or they're experiencing discrimination because of their defense of their students right to read, we can provide them with financial assistance that

UM helps pay for an attorney to advise them and things like that. But as a community, of course, there's the ability for individuals to take note of what's happening locally, to go to school board meetings, to participate in their local elections. UM AND and to raise their own voices against censorship, and that's incumbent on all of us so much as this happens, because these groups show up at these board meetings and they're the only voices in the room.

And if you don't have a lot of knowledge, if you don't have a lot of experience with this, it's very easy to think that you're dealing with the the majority. But we're not. We know that there are vocal minority and everyone needs to be aware of this and participate in local community activity with local elections, local board meetings,

both school board and library board meetings. UM. We can even talk a little bit about grassroots advocacy platform that we've created for individuals and communities to use to fight book censorship in their communities. UM. It's called Unite against book Bands and it's at Unite against book Bands dot org um and there you'll find a toolkit that can help you organize yourself and your neighbors to be president

at board meetings and raise your voice. How to where you can find information, talking points, letters to the editors, how to be aware of what's going on in local elections, questions to ask candidates, to find out where they stand

on this issue. And it's not just elections for boards, it's also elections for mayors, county commissioners, because many boards are appointed and you have to know where you're elected officials stand on this issue, and you want them to commit to preserving your right to choose what you want to read for yourself and your family. I will I will say this about this issue. I ain't never seen more people who ain never read ship more concerned about books.

And I'm sorry for cousin. No, You're absolutely right. Often we find that individuals haven't never read the book that they're challenging. We actually have instances where individuals have kind of ripped a list of bad books off of social media. UM. And social media is a great amplifier for these groups and their claims about books. But they'll take that list to the local library and demand that these books be censored. And then it turns out the book wasn't on the

shelf of the library. UM. And Uh, they didn't even know detect the library's catalog to see if it's there. UM. And it's very clear that when people talk about books like all Boys Aren't Blue, they have no idea what's in it. They only know the one paragraph they read on social media. They don't have any acquaintance with the book at all, but yet they demanding that it be censored for the entire community, whether it's the community of

students in a school district or the community as a whole. Okay, so then to that point. So then, George, So these book bands there, most of it all falls under books that are affecting or written for or speak to the audience of BIPAC or l G B t q I A plus authors and consumers, and so a book All Boys Aren't Blue. Specifically, this this book is your approach to how your intersectionality at some of these identities affected you and your upbringing and made you who you are today.

And so in the final chapter you said, I want to get this right and correct me if from wrong. You said, quote there were no books for me to read in order to understand what I was going through as a kid. There were no heroes or icons to look up to an emulation. There were no road maps or guidelines for journey. And again, because I know there wasn't and still isn't much out there, I made it

my original goal to get this right. End quote. So let's just start there talk talk a little bit more about that, and what do you feel like was missing from your reading as a kid, and why titles like yours should be essential reading for young adults. Yeah. I only have one quote that stattooed on me, and it's a Tony Morrison quote. If there's a book that you want to read and hasn't been written yet, then you

must write it. And so I was writing the book that I always um wish that I had when I was a team who was struggling with my identity and trying to um just figure out what it was I was going through and if anybody else in the world was also having those certain type of issues. UM. Realistically, growing up, there just weren't images on television and film, and especially no images and books of us And if there were any images of us, UM, there were probably

slurs being used or hurled towards us UM. And it's it's kind of interesting, right, Like I don't remember a whole lot of the readings that I had in high school, but you know, everybody remembers catching the rye Um and holding Caufield and how that story didn't resonate with any of us as black stud right, And if I'm not mistaken, it was the term savages being used an invisible man, I'm almost certain, and that's what they were referring to

indigenous people as um throughout the entire book. And I that was what by upbringing was in terms of books, right, books that um. Even if they did mention um other identities outside of people who were white, those identities were oftentimes demon eyes or being penalized for being who they were. But even when I think about television and film, there was really I would say, like, I remember, like there was like a gay character on the show called spinn

City with Michael j Five. Remember that one, And I was like, it was a black man who I believe was like it was one of the gay characters, and so I was like, I remember him, I remember RuPaul. But like, outside of those two entities, that just wasn't much for us to cling onto or latch onto. And what that does when you don't have images of yourself in the world. One you don't know that you also exist in the world. But two it almost makes UH like queer teens and black quarer teens have to go

through a second adolescence. Um throughout their adulthood because their original adolescents they were just trying to protect themselves out of safety and couldn't identify as who they were UM and had no roadmap for it. And so we unfortunately make a lot of mistakes well into our adulthood. Uh, we don't get to have the same experiences around dating. It's like my little brother started dating in thirteen. Well, if I'm gay, and clearly I'm at Catholic school, I

can't date anybody. So I actually don't start my dating experience that I'm well into my twenties, right, So it just continues to put UM students behind when they don't have source of materials that can actually tell them who they are, what they are, what some of the things that they may go through may look like, and how to navigate the spaces and the things that they are already encountering. Yeah, when you really put it in that perspective,

and I'm like rewinding in my head. You know, if you're looking at anybody in the l g B t q I A community in that era of television eighties and nineties, it was definitely a punchline first, or if you were a positive character, then the character was not written as openly gay. It was just assumed or implied like I'm thinking like me Shack Taylor from Designing Women, where this person just early Are they gay? Are they not? Well, it doesn't matter. They make the plot work. Let's just

let's not worry about that character's backstory. He's here to support the women in this Smith like, take me through the day you found out your Ask got banned. Almost feel like we were in a different place as a country when you first started writing this book versus when you released it into the pit fires of crt hell one. Did you know when you were writing this that it

might appear on banned book? Listen to what was What was your initial feeling when you first found out that your book was under attack by so many of these groups that Devil was talking about. I knew it was getting banned from the moment I wrote it, and I told McMillan, I told my team and mel and I was like, well, what are we gonna do when the books get when the book gets banned, and they were like,

why do you think your books? I was like, I am black and queer and I am writing a memoir are for young adults, like this is not going to just like if I was white, And I always say like, if I was white and queer and had this story that was very similar to this, um, I would have probably won every award. I would have been heralded on everything. It would have already been a movie, right, it would

have been a whole different thing. But it's like when you're a black and queer and you write this particular story, it's like, oh, how dare you, like, you know, tell us about ourselves, Like how dare you even have the

audacity to tell us that you exist? Right? Um? The first notice I got of a book band was actually I was on Twitter and somebody added me who followed me and was like, hey, this person in Kansas City is running for school board and like the whole like their whole platform is built around band in your book. And so I went to Facebook and I saw the white guy was saying and so I it's not really a quote tweet, but like on Facebook, you know how like you could take a post and then write the post.

So like I wrote above the post. I don't remember what punch line I used, but I wrote a punch line because if anybody who follows me onto it or anywhere knows if if I'm a dragon carry, I'll drag and carry. And so I dragged him and then it deleted the post. I thought that was it, honestly I did. Um, But I had an inkling to set up Google alerts, and I was like, let me set up Google alerts so I can keep track of this, because if it's happening like this and like very small locales, I won't

catch it. I won't catch it. And so um, that was like the end of September of last year. Um, by November, I think I had hit eight states, had already like started to pull the book, but nobody nationally was covering the story yet because nobody knew that this was happening, because they were doing it so covertly in such small places, nobody knew what was happening except for the American Library Association and US as the authors who

were getting the Google alerts. So then I made a tweet like hey y'all, just by the way, like my book is ban in the eight States, and it went viral. And so of course, because I was a former journalist, I have a bunch of journalists who followed me and so they were all like, wait, Jordan, what are you talk about? And so that's when I started to speak out against it. The moment I started speaking out against it, it went that's week goes viral on I think a

Thursday or Friday. By that next Friday, that's when the criminal complaints filed against me in Florida, and and the criminal places against me, one against me, one against the book in Florida. And that's literally when the banded book situation went from something very mild to something very very serious, very very quickly. Like when she did that, it just it just became a bat. You just can't breathe past criminal complaint as they Let's unpack that for a second.

What crime were you guilty of? You would live committed, George Well, the books. The crime the book committed was because the book has it had its own charge. The crime of the book committed was like under some like Pornography Act or pornography law in Florida that she was trying to file it under um the crime I committed.

I think she was trying to get me for like intimidation and harassment because I continue to speak out about it, especially after she filed the cryptical playing against my book. Um I started to speak out about it, um and

she didn't like that. But but realistically it was part of the playbook, like because they weren't winning in every like everywhere that they were trying to ban books, they weren't necessarily winning, right, like we were winning in some of those cases, and the a c LU was winning.

And so once it got to that point where they realized that they weren't winning in some of those places, they do what they do and they try to go to criminal you know, criminalization round and then across the country country now, like she was the first, and I mean as soon as she did it, North Carolina was next.

Then I think it was one in South Carolina. Then it was one of i That's when the Senator, no, the governor of Iowa went on TV with my book and read the most graphic part of the book on TV and says she was going to pass a law so that nobody could give my book out. So that's when they literally that was their next part of their plan was like, Okay, if we're not gonna win it,

if following the rules won't allow us to win. Because they were following the rules and school boards, even some cold service school boards were like, no, we're not getting rid of all the books. Um, they went the criminal route, and so now they're they're they're taking it up. We all know what they're trying to do. They're trying to get it to the Supreme Court. They're trying to challenge the two peak O case that gives students rights to

have their books. We're not stupid, like we know their first they started at local then they went just now that we're at state level and eventually a federal lawsuit more likely to that will probably givest me in the book.

In the American Library Associations, we've actually seen federal legislation introduced that would penalize state funding for schools and require literally literally require the states to allow people to use I believe they're called five twelve plans for tuition set asides for religious schools that they're not allowed to use those plans for if there's an allegation that the school the state is tolerating the presence of books that are

deemed to be inappropriate by these groups. We don't think that legislation is going to go anywhere, especially since uh, well, midterms are coming up who knows um, and they're being bolder as we saw yesterday. But um, you know we're seeing state legislation. Twenty seven states have adopted some sort of CRT band Um we're seeing now don't say gay bills. In Florida, they're literally taking and all the books out of classrooms. They're so terrified. We're now have a lawsuit

in Tennessee. Group of parents is suing to remove curriculum that they believe is teaching white kids to hate their race quote unquote, and so under the anti CRT law in Tennessee, they've brought lawsuit and among the books that they're siding a Ruby Bridges autobiography that she wrote for six year olds that uses historical photographs of her uh integrating her school in New Orleans with all the adults

screaming at her and using profanities against her. And and they say that's too intense for six year old and it makes them feel bad about their race. They actually attacked a biography of Martin Luther King that shows images of crossing the bridge in Selma and the resulting police attack on the protesters as saying that's inappropriate for k through twelve students to have access to and so we'll well,

we'll have to see what happens with this lawsuit. But we're seeing a systematic attack using all kinds of channels to limit and narrow what we can think about to what a very small group of people think is appropriate. Um. This ninety two vision of a white society anywhere there aren't troublesome people who are gay or black, or queer or transgender. Yeah, all adjudicated at the state and local level by officials that are appointed by people in elections

that we deem unnecessary and unimportant. Um. After the break, I want to get a little bit more into this side of the legality of it, but also I want to talk about what we as parents can be doing to talk to our children about their reading choices, and how to do this the right way in spite of what might be happening in the schools. This is beyond

the scenes. We'll be right back, Debor. I want to start with you again and just expanding a little bit on what George have been talking about about this allegation that this book is teaching the children's situality and it ain't time for the kid to be learning about the sex and all of that stuff, and they're grooming the children. What is happening in these conversations that is alleging sexual grooming? Like you gotta e what't there a book in Texas

about farting? Yes? What was that? Noisy? Noisy? But it's something nice but well, and that was vulgarity. You know, that's just too vulgar. I mean, we all know that that's the sweet spot for the third third grade boys, right, you know, if you want them to get them to read, there's Captain Underpants, I need a new butt. You know what was it? Harry the Farting Dog? You know? Um? And and it's a great gateway for those six seven eight year old boys who are a little slower to

pick up reading. And you want to generate a love of books and reading in them, and you give them these essentially joke books. But we actually know that there was a principle. I believe it was in Alabama who was fired for reading um, I need a new Butt to a class of kids. He read it in the late afternoon as a treat because they've done so well all day for him, and as a result, he was fired for you know, uh, doing vulgar things with the kids. But that's separate from what I think is a far

more toxic conversation that's going on. These groups like Moms for Liberty UM, UH, Parents Defending Education, whatever, UM are creating a false and uh toxic framing around materials that deal with gender identity, sexual orientation, and even sex ad you know, and they're arguing that these books are obscene for miners to read, scene for the display for miners or are you know, whoever writes them or whoever provides some are pandering obscenity to miners, And that's absolutely false

with the constant. You know, the Supreme Court has told us what is protected speech in this case, and sex is a protected sub subject, gender identity, sexual orientation, all these things the you know, if it has educational value, it has scientific value, artistic value, literature, that's all protected by the First Amendment. But they're trying to shift the

needle on this conversation. They're trying to reframe this in a way that gives them the tools they need to censor all of this material and uh and use the courts and use the law to do it. So we've seen situations like the one in Florida where the person who actually brought the charges in that case was a school board member who had been recently elected from one

of these parents rights groups. UM had run for a vacancyat to fill a term, and she won, and she was so unhappy with the fact that the board was taking its time in reviewing George's book and and comparing it to whether it had been acquired according to policy and met educational needs that that's when she went to the sheriff's office to file the charges of vicinity. Now, fortunately the prosecutor and the sheriff's department in Florida rejected

all the charges. They said, this book is an obscene and if you want a decision on this book, well it's the school board that properly makes it a core to their policies. But we've also seen this happen in states like Wyoming. A group UH, I don't know if you're familar with mass Resistance, but they're in anti lgbt Q hate groups and they have a local chapter in Wyoming, and they actually filed criminal charges against the library staff

and the public library and Gillette UM Wyoming UH. And again the library staff just for having books and books that were meant to be where does baby? Where do

babies come from? Uh? This is what's happening to your body during puberty books UM, and then a few books like Georges that are intended for young adults who identify as gay or queer UM and who want to understand what they're going through or you know, learn something from others experiences so they can navigate their identity successfully and

set up successful relationships as a teen and an adult. UM. In this case, this book is Gay by Juno Dawson was one of the targets of these charges, and these librarians lived in fear for three weeks that somebody was going to come and put them in handcuffs and put them in jail for simply providing books to the young adults that asked for those books in their community public servants. UM. Fortunately, again the prosecutor rejected all those charges, said, no, no

crime has been committed here. These books aren't obscene and and the library did what was supposed to do in providing these books. But we're seeing more and more of this narrative pushed on boards on communities and if you don't have a lot of knowledge about the First Amendment. If you don't have a lot of experience with this kind of litigation, Um, it's easy to be swayed by these arguments because we don't have a lot of good civic education anymore. That's just my opinion. But um, you know,

we don't teach civics anymore. We don't teach They don't teach government anymore, you know. And they play on the signorance and they play on parents fears. You know, George, what are what are other band author saying and doing? We know what you're doing, and you know you're taking up a torch to fight and you have you You're almost like in a way to me, it's almost like, and I know scarface is not the best analogy, but

I envision you. You were just an author. You're just trying to sell your book and mind your damn business. And then you looked at at the video camera and you saw all of them right wing groups coming and storming your book come found You're like, oh, you want to play rough, well, then let you want to go to war. Let's go to war. Let's let's have a

fight about this. But in talking with other authors about this issue, what are you seeing from them in terms of how they're reacting and what they are doing to strategize against this type of bullshit? Well, you know, it's it's tough. Um. It's tough for various nuanced reasons for authors.

Um so so one, most authors are not, like media trained in the way to address these type of things in a way like I have a whole background as a journalist, So when I'm doing these interviews, someone's always gonna try I got your question, Like, They're always gonna try like, well, should any books be banned? Like or they always try and ask a question like around that right, like around other like to kind of like flip it

on his head. But I always know how to like CounterPunch, and I always know how to like counter a story. Not like all authors aren't trained to do that, And so you have many of them who fear that they'll get caught up and say something that they shouldn't say, or say the wrong thing, and then it just spires out of control. You also have some publishers who, you know,

we just have to be honest and transparent. Um. I'm fortunate that when I made the decision that I was going to fight this like the way that I wanted to fight it that my publisher was like, let's go for it, like we have your back. That's not everybody's situation. There are many publishers who were like, we're not touching this, we don't We will release a statement as a as an entity UM that says we're against this, but outside of that, we really don't want our authors in that

type of fire. We don't want our authors in that type of heat. We don't want to have that type of thing happening. And so you don't have many authors who who speak out. I would say there's a group of us though, who are unapologetically speaking out, um, like the Tiffany Jackson's, like the Nick Stones, like the Antie Thomas is um, myself, Astley Hope, Perez Leah johnsoning like there are some of us who are who are not

afraid to speak out. But it's tough. Does an author, especially a new author, who has written something that is in the crosshairs of being banned, do they run the risk of jeopardizing their career as an author by choosing to fight and going against the will and wishes of their publisher, who, hey, just be quiet and we'll just sell what we can and we'll do a couple of activations and you know it, well, you know this book has the ability to simmer of a couple and then

they'll turn around and use the lack of sales to justify not running with you again. So like, is there is there a bit of that to some degree, but some of the authors that are dealing with this absolutely, Um, there's there's a lot of that too, right, Like, because publishing it's it's you know, there are a lot of imprints, there are a lot of places, but it's just like

any other industry. It's just like any other industry. And a person can be or a publisher or multiple publishers can be turned off by the fact that you're so vocal, can be turned off by the fact And I mean like there are even times like we're in contracts that I do we have to put a clause in it that I'm allowed to still speak out against certain things because a lot of times there are actual clauses in the contracts that prevent people from from talking about certain

subjects or talking in certain ways without the approval of their their they're publishing house. Um, And that's not necessarily like a bad thing. That's more of a protection thing, to make sure that, you know, authors aren't just saying whatever they want to say wherever they want to say it. But I also think because we're in a precedented moment, a lot of people just aren't sure how to react

to it. I think some people aren't sure if this is like a situation that's just going to pass once the midterms are done, you know, because they always try to find something new, and so we're not sure. I don't think it's going to pass, but we're still not sure, right because it was like, remember it was antifa. When was the last time you heard anybody say antifa? They don't say it anymore, right, it was black lives matter.

The only time now that you ever hear them say black lives matter is because now they're arresting those capital rioters, right, and so that's the only time you ever hear anybody say this because they're trying to juxtapose it. But outside of that, they don't say it anymore. And so now we're like, oh, your next thing is the book bands

and education, and so we're like, where is this going? Right, Like, let's say the midterms, there isn't some big red wave and they keep and them actually keep the house in the Senate. I'm not sure if they're gonna keep fighting for this right, but if they do flip a chamber or flip both chambers or whatever, then this may continue

to be their fight. I think this, the issue of book bands, curriculum, education would have probably been one of the top issues had the ROV wave this situation not having installed the thunder of everything and kind of shifted the whole midterm. But I do think that this is still a very very important issue. And um, that's why I continue to choose to fight it, because it's not just about taking my book out of the library or taking our books out of certain libraries, like our books

are saving lives. We have the emails, we have the direct messages, we have all of that that that these students and that these teams send us, that that let us know that literally like these kids were on the brink and somebody handed them our book and it changed the trajectory of their entire life. Um. And so that's why we fight so hard, because we can't let that we we just can't let it happen. Absolutely, deb where does the line stop them because we could go books,

we could go audiobooks, we could go e books. This has the whole potential to cross over into the digital world and the internet. What's to stop a school from saying, all right, now that we got all these books banned, what's up with these newspapers, let's odd block and all that. They're already doing that. You know, they've already enacted bands into reading anything from the New York Times dealing with the six nineteen project. That's law in seventeen states law.

Now whether that stands up to the legal challenges right now, I have to give a little boost to a c l U. They're challenging CRT bills laws in New Hampshire, Oklahoma, and Florida and don't say gay in Florida, So props to them. We'll see where that how that falls out. But I'm terrified given the appointments to the judiciary over the last four years. But we'll set that aside um.

But we're already seeing it. We saw a whole public library district in Texas pulled the plug on their entire e book platform because they didn't like the fact that George's book in Gender Career by ma Kebabi were part of the e book collection and to kill the entire e book access for two books, all the books, all

the books, all the books. And they ain't done that. Nobody. Well, what's worse is that they they are a rural community and they have a lot of elderly and disabled folks in the community that relied on digital e book access. This elderly woman says, Who's how am I going to read my weekly romance? I can't get out, I don't drive, I use large print on the screen. And now they've taken that all away, and they the board didn't care.

The elected officials didn't care. They were more concerned about the small group in the community that was claiming that books like George's were pornography and harmful to minors. And they bought that and they actually replaced the library board with the actual sensors in that community. Now that's being challenged in a lawsuit, but that's to be a long remedy for that. It'll be years before that is resolved,

if at all. You know, it shouldn't be that we have to go to court to preserve our civil liberties. Are right to read and a right to have equal access to a community resource like the books in the library, and have the resource reflect everyone's lives in the community. Uh. And it's just really terrible. But I don't you know, digital has made it worse. Um, it's not only taking away digital access, it's the ability to track what people are reading and viewing on the screen. And we're seeing

that happen to K through twelve students. You effectively have no privacy if you have a school issued laptop or chromebook and there you know, they they've actually uh turned on cameras after school hours. And there was one young person in Pennsylvania who actually was arrested for drug use because he had some kind of hard candy on his desk that was shaped like a capsule and the I. T department in his high school turned it into the police.

You know that, you know, again eventually resolved. But we we why are we tolerating this situation? Why are we taking away young people's rights, the privacy to the right to read. It's just it's beyond imagining right now to that point about selection and agency. George, So I have a six year old. Now we try to let this boy choose what do you want to eat? And for the most part he's I He like, if you ask him for what you want for breakfast, he will choose

from an array of breakfast options. He won't just say I won't cupcakes. Um. We try to monitor the educational tablet time and so there there's this there's this app called Epic Epic Reading, and Epic Reading lets you swipe through whatever book you want to find. And he's old enough to spell, so he can search by topic. His thing is Ninja's if as long as you're reading, I don't care. He's some book called cat Ninja. He is

obsessed with cat Ninja. And so I feel like as a parent, I kind of transition from something that that my parents were in, which was very much you're gonna read this or you had a sign reading. You know, I'm from Alabama, Birmingham Public schools. Where is one slavery book and the Hobbit. Here's another slavery book and Babel like those. That was kind of the oscillation of things.

But like when we talk about agencies, so in your book, you know, you talked about you know, a child wearing a basketball headband, for for instance, and like if we use wardrobe as an example, you said quote rather than saying you are wearing this. I hope more adults will ask what would you like to wear and then have

a conversation about these choices. So if we apply that same concept to reading, what conversations can comparent to be having If they're raising a BIPOC or l G B t q I a plus child, what are they missing out on by not having those conversations and making sure that kids are getting reading materials that speak specifically to

their child's experiences. Yeah, I mean the real thing they're missing out on is that there's this They're just assuming that their child is okay, and they're assuming that their child is like just just navigating life okay because their child hasn't said anything to them. And I think it's it's interesting right because like, and I've talked about it with even like with my family before, um because they're

all up and through the book. But um, it's just interesting because it was like, well, everybody knew I was queer, but nobody ever said it. And so I'm navigating my life with the bare minimum of resources that I have, But I have these guardians around me who are protecting me and who are doing all of the right things in their minds, but the one thing that they couldn't bring themselves to do was just asked me the question,

or sit down and talk with me about it. Because there's a real fear, for some reason that has been built in this country, um that parents and kids should not be having adult conversations, even though parents are trying to prepare their children for adulthood. And realistically that's what's being missed, right, And so I liken it to the fact that we will send kids to college, but we will never teach them how to do their own taxes.

And then at one they leave college, they get their first job, they have no idea what a one exemption is or two exemption is a zero exemption, And so you're like, we're literally just sending them out into the world ill equipped. The whole notion that, oh, this the topic of sex is too heavy for my fourteen to eighteen year old, because be clear, my book is for

fourteen to eighteen year olds. So then you're like, okay, well, if the topic of sex is too heavy for your eighteen year old, then you send your eighteen year old to college with no framework around sex. What exactly do

you think is going to happen. And how do we know that we are lacking in teaching fourteen to eighteen year olds about sex because we can look at the rates of sexual assault, sexual misconduct, and rape on college campuses across the United States and how rampid it is, and a lot of that is because we are not teaching sex education before we send them off into the world with raging hormones that we never talked them about um and then they're making poor decisions just base level

no means no reading body language, just how not to raise an asshole, right, And so that's what we're missing out, and that's what a lot of parents are missing out on because parents are keep saying I should have the right to teach this heavy topic in my home, and we're like, I don't disagree with that, but you're also

not teaching that heavy topic in your home. So you can't have it both ways, Like you can't have it where you're like, I don't think the school should be teaching them this or this or they should be getting this at school, because that's that should be my inn home decision that we make as a parent. But then it's like okay, but then your child comes home and you're still not teaching them that, and you're still not talking to them about that, and you're still not giving

them access to it. So where exactly do you think they learn it from? And even in the section in the book that they're attacking the most, they're flipping what I said. What I said was most teenagers learned about sex through pornography. It is what it is. They sneak and watch it. I was a teenager who who sneaked off and watched it. My friends were teenagers who sneaked

off and watched it. And so when they when we're going through puberty, were literally just pulling from any resource that we can that we can access because we keep getting denied the actual resources that we really need. So instead it's like, oh, well, I'm gonna take George's book away from you. It doesn't stop your teens yearning to still know the information. But what it does is it means that they're going to now go down dangerous paths to get it. And that's all we're trying to prevent.

We just want to be able to say here's the roadmap instead of um almost like uh like uh, what those things used to call when you used to have the search and find stuff um scavenger hunt. Right, It's like, rather than you having to go on a scavenger hunt for the information, we just want to give them the information. But instead they think that when we introduce these heavy topics, or that when the students get a book and they read the book, they think we're introducing these heavy topics

to them. And what we're trying to tell them is, no, your teams are already going through this. They're already dealing with sexual assault, they're already dealing with and they're having these conversations. But y'all think we're introducing them too them and they're literally saying, no, we want the books that we can learn about what we're already experiencing. Yeah, it's

that fantasy. If they don't read about if the books aren't there to tell you about it, then it's the parents can pretend it's not happening, and we know that that's not it. You know, fatting the book isn't going to take away the fact that kids are dealing with these issues on a regular basis and or that they're

experiencing it. Uh, And you know what, would you rather have a librarian or an educator making choices of our and curating good content that addresses these issues and a responsible fashion that gives good information, accurate information, or you know, out on the internet looking at pornography. I you know often say, you know, we're banning books, but let's look at that phone that's unrestricted, unfiltered phone in the back

pocket of every young person, you know. Okay. I definitely want to try and spin this into something positive, because if it's one thing Americans love, it's stuff that's banned and forbidden, and that you have limited access to low key banned books. We might be the thing that they didn't want to happen that's going to happen. I want to unpack that a little bit with you, George, and also I want to figure out ways, dvor that we the people can join the fight to help change this.

We're talking banned books and beyond the scenes, we'll be right back beyond the scenes. We're rounding third headed for home. We're talking banned books. Now, let's discuss Banned Books Week, which is this week. George, Now you are the honorary chair. Run us through the week. What's what's on the agenda of is there a branch included. I love a good branch of barbecue or block party, anything would be okay. Yeah.

So this is the fourtieth anniversary of Band Books Week, and I'm really excited that I was chosen to lead it. UM interesting, I guess interestingly enough, Like band books have always been like a thing, It's just never been this big of the thing. So I think it's exciting because so many people are like interested in like, uh, talking to the authors and and hearing from us and so UM. We have virtual events lined up. We have one with the Emancipator UM, which I believe was I think that

was was that Frederick Duck with his original newspaper. UM. I know they brought yes, So they brought it back. They brought back the Emancipator. It's now under the Boston Globe family. So we have an amazing robust panel conversation UM with Sarah Kate, who's the president of glad Leah Johnson will be there and several other authors will be there.

I'll be moderating that conversation. I'll also be on Tamarin Hall coming up soon to talk about band book She's been an avid supporter of books um and against the book bands. Um, we have you know, some virtual like I said, several virtual events lined up this week, UM in person event and I believe in d C with dr Abrahm x Kendy. Um. Yeah, so it's it's really really exciting to we have some Instagram live things going on, um,

Facebook live things going on. Uh. Yeah. We just wanted, you know, wanted to make sure that people got to hear from the authors, UM, that people understood you know, the importance of fighting against censorship, um, and just having a really good time being proud of being banded. Like I'm proud to be banned. So I don't know about anybody.

I think everybody can tell by now. Um, you know, me being band got me on a New York Times best seller lists, so the New Yortime best seller list, and it got me in the top ten list, right, And I think my book is right about Tony Morrison's. And so I always tell everybody like that's probably the only list I'm gonna ever make with Tony Morrison. So

I'm gonna take that as a badge of honor. Um. But yeah, band books, we we we wanted to make sure that we did something a little bit different this year and really go hard at it and really, um almost re re reput the messaging back out there because school just started again, so of course they're starting again and sell band Book Week is now our moment to really really start again. Yeah, and really we have a whole calendar of things going on both nationally and locally.

If you go to Banned Books Week dot org, you'll be able to find the calendar of all these events. There's a lot of in person events going on at local library and schools and community centers UM, but we're also doing things like a virtual read out with authors and students who are part of the Kids Right to Read Project at n c A c um UH and a number of all these events that you know, social media and things like that that will be a real

great thing. UM. One thing to remember about Banned Books Week. Tuesday at Banned Books Week is National Voter Registration Day, and so we're encouraged we're taking that opportunity to encourage everyone to make sure that they know whether they're registered to vote or not if they're not, to register to vote, and to educate themselves about what's going on at elections at the local level. And we're gonna really build a whole series of promotions and events around that fact and

take advantage of the coincidence. You know who you're voting for. Don't just vote for somebody because they got it. I'll be falling for the nice pictures some of them politicians. You don't read the platform theyb like ban everything. Damn already check yes on this person. Whatever? Are there any other resources that people like me? You know, let's talk hope and optimism. What else can we look to? You know,

we continue to see banned books in the news. Well, you can understand that you can do something about this as an individual, and you can get your networks, your community groups to join you in this. And I mentioned earlier Unite against Book bands and the resources that are available on that website that anyone can use to organize their friends there, church groups, their connections, their networks, to

be aware of what's going on locally. Um, and to be that louder voice in the room that speaks up in favor of the right to read, the right to choose, and the importance of making sure that your library reflects everyone's lives and choices. Um. And then uh, there's other things that individuals can do. Uh, you can. Well, we have a deer Banned Authors campaign. UM. We have, and

actually we're going to start a Deer Librarians campaign this year. UM, encouraging people to send postcards to librarians because they've been under particular attack this season of censorship. UM. And so we're just inviting people to use these resources to look beyond Banned Books Week. UM. You know, for so long, band Books Week has been one week, and we talk about celebrating the freedom to read. We celebrate the authors who have gone through banning and and celebrate the right

to make choices about our reading. UM. But I think this year we have to have Banned Books Week all year round. We have to have that awareness that we have this promise that we can read anything we want, we can think about anything we want under the First Amendment, and we have to protect that. And the only way to do that is becoming engaged locally. We have an aphorism all library politics are local, all school politics are local.

We need to take that to heart and and just take on that duty to become engaged at the local level and UH to raise our voices together, to empower ourselves to speak out. Okay. Last question, debral calwell Stone, director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Free And they are George im Johnson, author and former journalism Proud Band author. Give me the two of you some of your favorite band but other than All Boys Aren't Blue.

Other than George, you don't get the name your book, George. Other than that, what are some of your favorite band books? Just throw out a couple of titles for our listeners to go and try and dig up. Have to be honest. One of my more life changing reads was the absolutely true Diary of Part Time Indian by Sherman Alexei. Actually a family who lives in the area of Washington State that he grew up on the res in and I had no idea what was going on beyond the country

roads I was traveling on to go visit family. And it was just an eye opener. It was that door, that window into another life and gaining an understanding of the struggle to have an education. I so deeply appreciate that book and I recommend it to anyone. And you know, I'm a recovering attorney, so almost incumbent on me to

throw out to kill a mocking Bird. Al though it's kind of cliche and things, you know, but you know, I find when I read through the list of band books, you know, I have that experience that I had with absolutely True Diary. They turned out to be life changing, eye opening, uh, thought provoking, you know books, And I recommend anyone the reading list of this year's ban Books Top ten band Books list, which you can find on the l A website at l A dot or um

as a reading list. Of course, George's book is on that list, but I have the list hanging up. It's uh right here to the right of me, Um, hanging on the wall. Um yeah, long boy, definitely Um. Tolle Morrison's The Bluest I, which I'm still like, I don't get it. I'm shocked at, Like, how is that being

challenged all these days? I think Beloved is also challenged, and I think, um, I'm specifically going to talk about Beloved, um, because I remember when the movie Beloved came out and a lot of us struggled with it and like, I don't understand it. I don't get it. And then one of my friends, her name is Dr Jim Jackson. She reframed Beloved, and she was like, the problem is y'all

aren't reading Beloved as a black horror story. And she was like, if you go into the mindset of like how Jordan Peel is doing black like these black horror she was like, read Beloved, but read it from the mind standpoint that this is a horror and it blew my mind. One. It blew my mind once again. Tony

Morrison was well ahead of her time. Um, but too, I think everybody should go back and reread Beloved from the mindset of I'm not looking at this as like a love story or a tragedy, but I'm looking at this as a horror um. Because that's it, truly. If you read it, it will teach you how to build upon if you want to be a horror writer, or you know, it just has so much texture to it. Um. So yeah, okay, well that's all the time we have for today. George, Thank you to you, Debra, thank you

to you as well. Hopefully by now we have taken you all beyond the scenes. We'll see you next week. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.