Voter Fraud, Italian Satellites and…Marla Maples? | Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy

You're listening to Comedy Central.

In the days after the twenty twenty presidential election, CIA director Gina Haspell flies to Frankfurt, Germany on a secret mission to secure a computer servers that contain evidence that the election has been manipulated. These servers, owned by a bankrupt Spanish company called Scheitel, could prove that the election was ringed for Joe Biden. Haspel and a team of Special Forces troops to send on Frankfort to destroy the evidence, but in the reign, five troops and a CIA official

You can have some pretty far fetched ideas on both sides, and what we're doing is simply proving or disproving as many of those as we can.

Speaking of somebody on the outside, this feels like it's just feeding into territorial thinking.

We're MythBusters.

Great, Okay, we're doing things we think are foolish, but people believe it's real. If we validate the something they think might have happened didn't happen, then we're not throwing fuel on the fire.

Are you looking into the Hungarian vector?

I didn't know about that one. Hungary vector.

It's a bullshit thing I just made up that sounds cool and a little bit spooky. This is Jordan Klepper Fingers the conspiracy, And yes, those twenty twenty election conspiracy theories do sound a lot more exciting when we put public domain, suspenseful music underneath them. You may have heard a few of those theories, partly because the White House and Republicans in Congress were publicizing them in the weeks after the election to convince Americans that the election was stolen,

Yeah, definitely. So it emerged it's sort of in late twenty twenty, and it's still a little bit murky about where it came from. The Washington posted a really good article on it, but it possibly was. It had sort of origins an article in Italian media, and then an XCIA station chief named Bradley Johnson put out a video. But the ones who really pushed it forward. To answer your question were Maria's Zach from Nations in Action and a woman named Michelle Roosevelt Edwards.

Let's start with, let's break down. Talk to me a little bit about Maria Strollo Zach. You've talked to her, correct.

I talked to I called her number and an identical voice answered the phone who said it wasn't her.

Uh So, yeah, theoretically, talk to somebody who may have been herself pretending to be somebody else.

That's why I'm reporting, Like, that's why I hate phone calls and I like emails.

Yeah, the era of zoom works for you because you see what that person looks like as opposed to distrusting. But who is this person? Who is Maria Strolozak?

So she's a conservative activist and an ex Georgia lobbyist who I guess was pretty successful and I think she ran for office a few times herself just on the local level, just at some point got very involved in this Italy Gate conspiracy and pushed it very far.

I feel like, if you're in this world, you're talking about Italian satellites, those things flip and you're probably a character. Is she a character?

I'm guessing it's interesting because when I watched the videos, like, she's clearly like a very intelligent person. That's what's also, like said, there's a little bit of a you know, you have this conspiracy theory obviously, which is which is false, but then you have a person who's like, you know, she's laying it out with confidence.

Tell us a little bit about Michelle Roosevelt Edwards.

So she runs another organization called the Institute of Good Governance, and uh, she sort of worked closely with Maria zach On on Italy Gate. So the Washington Post had a big article that at some point in icelandic film crew

Was that woman in the house at the time, She's like, oh, dear lord, oh dear lord, who interviews in my leving.

Room somewhere else or something? But it was like I felt I felt bad for her. No, it was like she was just using this house for like, I don't know business.

You're telling me this person who'll put up an entire false front to show that she's more successful than she is, she's somehow connected to this whole Trump world. I don't buy it. I don't buy it. It just doesn't It doesn't sit well with me.

Yeah, it's tough to beale. That was like a was that just that killed me?

Okay? And I want I want to dig into sort of their roles within this but this this initial thought was sort of revolving around an employee, Arturo Delia.

Correct, Yeah, there's I was thinking about this last night. This is the hardest thing about Italy Gate, is I mean, to state the obvious is like explaining it. The short version is Italian satellites based in Piscara, Italy, UH altered the votes, giving Joe Biden enough votes from Donald Trump to win. That's the short version.

Of Italian satellites. They're the bad guys.

Well, there's a lot of players in the CIA, former President Barack Obama, the hacker that you just referenced, and a lawyer who put out an Affidavid. There's like those four.

Those are the four. And so the hacker he worked for something called Leonardo Spa.

Yeah, he worked there. They said he left in twenty seventeen, which is another problem because he when he was indicted for a separate I think it was like data theft. He didn't even work at Leonardo.

What is Leonardo Spa? I mean it sounds like a massage parlor and like a cheap one just outside Rome that like you you splurge because you're on vacation, but you don't have enough money. So you're sort of like, what's a cheaper one, like, come to Leonardo Spa. It's right next to Michelangelo nails.

That was a very specific Uh.

Not that this is a hypothetical. I've not had that experience. I imagine if you're pouring in Italy and just had had a hard time on a long plane because those seats there's not a lot of space, and you're a tall person, hypothetically you're gonna be looking for a Leonardo Spa. This is not that kind of spa exactly.

No, it's a somewhat more boring military you know, like a military they make military equipment and satellites stuff like that, like a Boeing.

Okay, so a'll bow and this is this Arturo Delia Delia does he actually work for Leonardo Spa.

My understanding is at some point he did work there, but he was gone by twenty seventeen.

Okay, And is there any information that says that he had access to these Italian satellites in a way that could alter it election?

Zero?

No?

Zero?

Okay, okay, okay, but so walk us through this. So the head of Nations in Action, this group, it's a person named Maria Strollo Zak, who you've spoken with in your reporting, what's she like?

Well? And to be clear, I was telling your producer that was that was a funny story because when I called Maria Zach for comment, obviously being a phone, I can't I don't know for a fact that I can say that the personal answered sounded exactly like her but told me very quickly it was not her and actually said it was her secretary and could she the phrases could she return? And I I was telling mad I was like, it's this is a cell phone. But anyway, I was like, you know.

Sir, of course wit so did you did that person then pretend to hang up, put on a gruff voice and then attempt to then answer the phone.

It was the same voice, but they were just like, you know, can she return? And I was like, you know, when you're a reporter, like it's things like that happen. So yeah, sure, of course, no comment.

Just to be if you're also like a public figure and somebody calls you and you pretend to be your own assistant just because you think it gives you status, that doesn't make you weird. That's just a savvy media person thing. To do. And if my parents or my friends think that's a desperate attempt or that I'm not in a good place, well that's more on them. Can you verify that?

Yeah, what jumped out of me? I'll always remember that. That was how quick it was. It was very I mean, you know you're comedian, you're an improviser. It was real quick. There was no plause like like that had happened before. Maybe that's you know.

That's I mean, that's an interesting way of looking at it as opposed to just somebody who's quick on the on the go. All right, so you had a quick interaction with this Maria Strollo, Zach. But again to what what what?

What?

What is our understanding of this story? So she is head of Nations and Action. What is Nations in Action?

If you go on their web page, there's a lot of sort of conspiracy theories, and I think they say that their statement is, you know, good government bringing transparency. Obviously whether that's true is up.

To to be determined. And so, but she was able to get this conspiracy in this idea in front of important people. Can you walk us through some of that?

Yeah, So she she used to be a lobbyist in Georgia's So she's got like close relationships with as I reported on Congress from Barry Laudermilk.

One of the one of the top five in all of Congress. Like, if you were going to, you know, if you're going to articulate what it feels like to hear a Southern Republican roll on louder Milk, feels right, it feels feels obnoxious and white, which is kind of Spotify.

Yeah, he's he's an interesting guy. I think I think they were, he and his staff. I think we're getting pretty tired of my emails. After a while they stopped, they didn't ever respond to me, but then they added me to their mailing list.

So that's how you shut somebody up. Just give them the spam.

She got it to him, She got it to Devin Nunez, the staff. I mean she You know what I was thinking about last night, Like the ordinary person has so much trouble reaching their elected officials, and yet this person pushing a complete, uh you know, conspiracy theory that's not true, is able to reach very high up people.

Yeah, she claims she gave documents to louder Milk. Do we know what was in those documents?

Yeah, I don't know, did you. I know, you guys are probably always working. Did you get a chance to see the affid? Davidt that this is all based.

Around no tell us tell us about it.

So the whole thing is that she delivered an aphid David. Basically, what it is is it's a photograph of an actual document, which right away is a little you know, unusual. It's not the document, it's it's a lawyer stating that this hacker that you mentioned in the beginning sat in front of him and told his story. That's what it is. No one's been able there is a lawyer that matches this name, but no one's been able to actually show that,

You can't even verify that that conversation took place.

No, and the document, you know, I can't say I'm an expert on court documents in Italy, but there's no numbers on it, like it's just it looks like someone like wrote it on Microsoft Word.

And she's also Maria Zach was doing an interview about a Italy gate from the back of a car in Washington, d C. On January six. What's going on there?

This happened. It's very real.

The President is right, foreign interference did occur and people need to be prosecuted in our country. Who actually participated?

That was the show called America Can We Talk? And that's a very strange interview, just because, as you said, it's taking place while our capital is being attacked. But there's no mention of it till the end. They're like, I think Maria's acts is something like, well, if they're able to, you know, get this under control, we can you know, get this affidavit to more people. It's like, whoa like? You know, it's very strange.

So there's there's a lot of interesting red flags and characters within this. But after all these conversations, meetings talking to Congressman louder Milk, how high did this go? Like who in government was actually taking this theory seriously?

That's a great question. Seriously, I mean in terms of as you said yourself, Meadows, I guess would be the highest ranking person to get it. But taking it seriously, you know a lot of work with conspiracy theorists. You wonder who's an opportunist who's not.

Well, I mean, it's an interesting question, you say, like taking it seriously. We don't exactly know what people actually thought, but I would argue that part of the whole game plan here was just so doubt so the fact that there were different threads for people to hold on to to grasp. Clearly, Donald Trump is somebody who was just flooding the marketplace with any thought out there, so that it's getting in people's heads. It's like, who had awareness

Yeah, and Zach too. She says she delivered or she told Trump about this at mar Al Lago in twenty twenty. I can't confirm that, but she said that a number of times. Really, so, I guess to answer your question, if that's true, then that reached Donald Trump.

Now what all this is happening? Is it fair to say that we didn't know how much of the voter fraud conspiracy theory would stick. These stories were so outlandish that it didn't seem possible that millions of people would believe them, And yet even today, the majority of Republicans say they don't think the twenty twenty election was legitimate.

Consequences are like obviously incredibly important. Like when there are no consequences, we're given a wide latitude to speak and that's a good thing. But as you know, some of these conspiracies are incredibly harmful. So I don't know. In cases like I don't know, let's say in Alex Jones, when people are actually held accountable makes a huge difference. Some of them stop tomorrow and you never hear from them again.

What do you think it was about Italy Gate that made it so sticky and interesting to people?

So there's a conference call I think it was on January fourth, twenty twenty one. It's between Maria zach and supporters. So it's right before the attack on the Capitol. It's like forty five minutes long, and it's just she lays out Italy Gate and then it's weird, like all these random people are popping in, like like I said, like Marlon Maples pops in and just like it's just she's the only everyone else is just a first name, so you don't even know really who they are.

What's Marl the Maple's doing there?

I don't know, like a supporter, I guess, very strange.

And all of this was sort of to just hip everybody to the Italy gate theory so that they had it in their back pocket.

I mean, I don't want to say that. She comes right in and but there's some hints of to continue this work, we will need funding, like a private plane has talked about at one point.

So oh, she's she's she's asking for a private plane.

I don't know, it might have been one of the other people, but there's definitely more than one hint therapy it like we need, you know, money.

This sounds like a timeshare situation. She gets everybody on a conference call. Let me tell you about this fascinating Italy situation. If you give me your attention and enough money for a private plan, I have something that is going to take your breadth away. And Pop's Marlon Mapoles was like, ooh, tell me more. It's like thanks, Marlo. Marla has been on this for quite some time. Her and her family our big Italy Gate supporters, and you two could be an Italy Gate supporter for just a

This is the last seven years kind of feel like a time shared. Like do you ever feel like that, like you're just trapped?

I yes, I do feel like I've given over a portion of my life to live in a different reality every year. And you look at it, You're like, I think this is a bad investment. I think the timeshare is giving into all of this bullshit that we're talking about. It just it sucks away so much time that I could be using for something else. It's not a time I'm sure. Maybe that's maybe what we're describing as a time suck. We've all invested in a time suck that

It's wild. I mean, this is the conspiracy theory that like I think I was telling your producer, Like even other conspiracy theorists are like like, like, that's how far this one is out there?

Like, yeah, what does this Italy Gate conspiracy rake in terms of all the conspiracies related to the twenty twenty election.

I would say, in terms of the ones that are like the wildest, this has to be at the top. I can't think of I know you guys have been doing this for a while on your podcast. If there's another one, I can't think of one.

You got Hugo Chavez so dead. Hugo Chavez is a fun one. It's definitely takes a stretch of imagination, but there's intrigue, there's sexiness to this. I'd have to put it up there as well.

It's also like the little details that kill me, Like the data. It wasn't enough that it was the Italian satellites they routed through Germany. It's like like why, Like that's what I don't understand, Like, but it's just fascinating.

There's somebody on the ground or in the air in Germany that was getting this information or or or working through the satellites through Germany.

Yeah, they're saying like at some point they never got into the sort of like how the the stuff was transmitted, but it was from the satellites and went through I think some servers in Germany and then I guess back to the US.

So they're theoretically, if this were real, not only are there folks in Italy who are culpable, but there are folks in Germany as well, which is what always kind of blows my mind with a lot of these conspiracy theories, because they they hype the idea behind it involves so many people that even afterwards, you'd expect. One thing we're really bad at is keeping secrets, especially if it's a multinational effort to overturn results in very specific states.

And then it just disappears into the void, which is sort of a I think people should consider a major I don't know if red flag is the right word, but if you believe so strongly in something you believe has happened, and then thirty seconds later when it doesn't, you know, when it's gone, You're just onto the next thing. It kind of questions like credibility, sure, you know.

I think we lost that a long time ago. Well, Eric LaVey, thank you for unfolding this conspiracy theory, like carefully needing a perfect pizza pie.

Thanks so much for having me.

We're going to take a short break. When we come back. We would talk to Pennsylvania Attorney General and Governor elect Josh Shapiro. We'll be right back. In the days after the twenty twenty election, Pennsylvania became the focus of Republican efforts to overturn the results. They ramped up their attacks on the legitimacy of mail in ballots and claimed that ballots would arrive after election day and be mixed with

Good to be with you, Jordan, Thanks for having.

Me, of course, and we were debating a current governor elect soon to be governor, Josh Shapiro. That's most of it, right.

Yeah, And look, I only require our four children to use all of the titles when they address me. You can call me whatever you want, well, not whatever you want, but you can call me one of those titles.

I was gonna say, Do you also throw in the beat Trump forty times in court, moniker or There's probably a lot of people will also have that in their name as well. The guy's been to court many, many times.

I don't know about that, but listen, we went to court forty three times against the former president and his enablers, and we beat him every time. We protected the right to vote. We had a free and fair, safe and secure election here in Pennsylvania back in twenty twenty, again in twenty twenty one, and most recently in twenty twenty two. The will of the people was respected each time.

When you've been at the center of these claims over voter fraud for over two years now, even though you did win the race for governor, it appears as if the state is moving forward. Does it still alarm you how many voters, obviously many of them Republican, appear to have bought into these conspiracy theories.

It does.

But Jordan, I don't blame the voters, and hear me on this. I blame the leaders who've been lying to them for the better part of the last two and a half years about voting by mail, about this phony election fraud of leaders who you trust, who you put into positions of authority, and then they lie to you over and over and over again. It's hard to blame

Well, I went to one of the rallies your opponent held right there at the state Capitol and talked to some of the tens of people who showed up.

I think about twelve people showed up that day, and after.

A minimal amount of fanfare, Mastriano appeared, and he was freaking.

Hilarious going after the pillow. Guy, are you serious? Give me a break? Beat Scotty, beat me up. No sign of intelligent life anywhere.

Boom. But even with the coveted Trump endorsement, the crowd was tiny. Was it small because of Masteriano's far right policies and election denihalism? Nope, this is Facebook.

Suppressing convative speech.

The reason that aren't people here because Facebook is silencing these silencing Yes, it was a low turnout. I felt like it seemed as if you had a good shot of winning that race. I want to talk a little bit about Masteriano though, because he may have spread more election related conspiracy theories than any other candidates. Let's go

Them, Well, by calling them what they were, complete and utter bullshit, that's what they were. He was lying to the good people in Pennsylvania and his conduct to try to overthrow the last election. Remember, he was part of the violent mob that stormed up to the Capitol on January sixth, and he went there that day. And this is real important, Jordan. He went there that day not just to hear a speech from the former president or be part of some peaceful protest. He went there that

Were in this country, well, I was surprised many of the people I talked to that day, were also there at January sixth. It was almost a mini reunion. You have been aggressive at pushing back and it made headlines for that. Do you think that your victory is a sign that voters are energized by candidates who push back aggressively against election deniers.

You got to fight back against it, and look, we've done it in big ways in small I mean, I've been to the hunt clubs in rural communities in Pennsylvania and confronted folks directly, and they'll say to me, they were saying to me, you know, the election twenty twenty was stolen, So so what evidence do you have of that. Let's just have a conversation. Well, there was massive voter fraud, and I say, you know, I'm I'm the attorney general. It's my job to prosecute election fraud, along with some

To me as the next governor of Pennsylvania.

How complete do you think step one truly is because I do looking at those the major election deniers, the races in Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Here's swing states where the people in control of verifying those ballots could have very well gone to election deniers. Those big places, they were defeated. But there's still a lot of people who are election deniers who are in position of power in America, a lot of very close races where perhaps election deniers were defeated,

Me say, I'm not confident that it's over at all. So don't you know, certainly don't put me in that category. I'm in the category where we had a good day on Tuesday, November eighth in defeating those extremists, those election deniers, but we have so much more work to do now. I believe that these election deniers are Masterriano in particularly, just profoundly and pathetically weak people.

And let me explain what I mean by that.

They know it's bullshit, but yet they say it over and over again because they're willing to sell out our democracy and our country for some short term political gain, for some short term attention, maybe some love from the former president. That's why they do it. That's the definition of weak if you're willing to sell out your nation

Did you have any Democrats from other states reach out to you to ask advice on confronting this election denihalism.

I did a lot of them, folks running for governor and other offices, and I spoke. Obviously, I'll keep those conversations in private, but I did speak to them about the need to take the fight on directly, to not give an inch on this. You know, when they say that something was stolen, challenged them on it. Put the facts out there. Make sure that you're going directly to the good people in my case of Pennsylvania.

With the facts. Do not let any of that nonsense stand.

Okay, Looking forward, well, where we are right now, Trump is running again, Elon Musk is green lighting misinformation all over Twitter. We know that voter fraud conspiracies. They're gonna get worse in twenty twenty four. What are tangible steps the Democratic Party can take to fight and to push back? Knowing the world we're in right now, you.

Know, try to meet people where they are. That's why I'm talking to you today. I mean, you've been out front on the importance of combating election denialism. You have exposed a lot of these folks and the lies they tell by you know, mocking them and showing not the humor in it, because obviously this is incredibly serious, but showing people this in a way that they can comprehend it if they don't read, you know, from page of

At least read the headlines. Good at reading the headlines.

But like, you know, you got to meet people where they are.

You got to communicate to them, You got to show them the difference between fiction and reality. And then I have responsibility now as a governor to hold myself up to that high standard and to continue to speak truth and continue, you know, to communicate me people where they are, whether we're talking to them on TikTok on your podcast anywhere We've got to meet people where they are and continue to share the truth.

You say you went to hunt clubs, You went to places where people had questions about the election. I get the question all the time, do you ever change people's minds? Boy, that's a unicorn. I can't say I'm watching people change their minds about information when you were at those places. Being confronted with outside facts doesn't always is often met with resistance and a doubling down of the things they

Sometimes I did directly, But what I was really going after was was not to embarrass anyone in front of their peers, or force someone to have to look at me in front of their peers and say, you're right, I'm wrong. What I've thought for the last year, you know, is incorrect. What I really wanted was when they left there, to be thinking about it and to process it and to maybe make a change in their thinking, or their politics,

Well after such a clear hubble brag such as that, chill about that. Now, you did a pretty good job. That's what You're a savvy politician. Even the bragging does come across somehow as as humble and informative. That's that's well played.

Well.

Your high profile and your success here has upped some of the speculation where people have seen you in the light of somebody who could be a Democratic nominee for president. Do you want to use the Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy podcast as a platform that you confirm loving hearing that speculation.

Yeah.

Now, man, Look, I'm just so excited to be governor. I haven't even been sworn in yet. I got a lot of work to do. That's all I want to do. That's all my wife and kids want me to do, and that's all I am going to do.

Awesome.

Well, well, thank you for talking to me. Governor Elect. Josh Shapiro will be right back. We're back, and we're talking election fraud. It's obviously something I hear over and over on the campaign trail. But unlike some of the other conspiracy theories we've covered on this podcast, this one has some serious implications on the future of our democracy. This about the Supreme Court is hearing arguments in a case called More versus Harper, and it could fundamentally change

I mean, I can repurpose the joke I made the first time you tease me where I said that if Rudi you can wear two watches, I can wear two headphones. But I you know, I'm a Belton Suspenders guy.

I went to law.

School and we learned to be very, very, very compulsive. So that's my story.

I'm sticking to it.

You're a Belton Suspenders guy. What does that mean? That means it's is that an overabundance of caution or fear that your parts could at any moment fall like what is again? This is what we do on this podcast. We really get into the nitty gritty, but this is a move out of fear respect true story.

I heard the expression at one point very early in my career covering oral arguments at the court, and I was.

Like, what the hell does this mean?

And all these lawyers were like, it just means being careful, idiot. So I think not to suggest that you're not knowing this term implies anything, but it was. I learned the hard way that apparently everyone but me knew that Belton suspenders is just kind of shorthand for lawyerly over cautiousness maybe, and also fear that your pencil full. Dow.

I was going to say, it's interesting, isn't like you. It's it's all about spin. It's either caution or its fear. But but I see how the attorneys do it. It's a it's a deductive sound, and I appreciate you taking that certain suspenders action. To listen to this. I want to talk about, you know, the potential collapse of democracy. It's a it's a hobby of mine, and I want to discuss this more. V Harper, Can we talk about that case itself and what that might mean for elections?

Sure it is.

It's hard to say this crisply, Jordan, but it's both the most.

Serious and least serious case of my career.

It's serious because the implications are vast, which we're going to talk about. It's also rooted in so much nothing that it's almost painful. Like when they call it the independent state legislature doctrine or the independent state legislature theory. Almost everybody puts doctrine in theory in air quotes because there's no there there. It's not something that is rooted in constitutional history. It's not something that's rooted in tradition.

You may recall bushv.

Gore also not a serious decision.

So this is like a Reest fever dream that we're in the midst of right now.

It's a Renquist fever dream where he's sort of spitballing.

Hey, maybe state.

Legislatures have you know, kind of plenary unreviewable power and state courts can't come in in bigfoot on them.

It gets two votes, that should be the end of the.

Story, but instead it's being lifted up as this important piece of doctrine and.

Not to get too in the weeds.

But the reason it's serious is because if the claim in this case, and this case comes from a North Carolina gerrymander, the North Carolina Supreme Court says, oh, hell no, do your maps again. And the North Carolina Republican Legislature takes this to the Supreme Court and says, we're here proffering this completely asinine, rootless theory that when a legislature does election stuff, no court can review it.

End of story is.

That it we are in a nutshell. If you're to explain it to our audience, read our host. Pretend there's somebody who read the headline of a Vox article but maybe didn't get all the way through because they're busy. Is that basically it. It's something that's looking at the power of state legislatures over federal elections and questioning whether or not they have ultimate power. Is that ballpark?

There's but there's one clarification. There's one section of this that has to do with the Elector's Clause in the Constitution. That's the federal elections. There's one that is the elections clause that has to do with state elections. So this particular case actually doesn't implicate some of the stuff we talked about Brad Raffinsberger and you know, state electors and sending over fake state electors. This is not scooping up

Procedures are handled. But one tiny wrinkle there, Jordan, that's worth saying.

One consequence of that is that if they win on that claim, you're going to have on the same ballot they used to have state and federal elections complete chaos because one set of them can't be reviewed and one presumably can. So one of the things that this is going to inject into the system is totally different lanes for state and federal office.

Okay, so you're looking perplexed. I'm worried that I've.

I mean, it sounds it sounds like there may be should be a checker of balance in there that these state legislatures shouldn't be able to be the final say. Where do the justices stand on this? Like, what is the actual likelihood that state legislators will gain control of federal election procedures?

I mean, here's the tricky part.

We already have four justices on the current Supreme Court who've evinced real enthusiasm for this theory. So we have Justice as Alito, Gorsach, and Thomas that are kind of like pedal to the medal, this is cool, And in some of the pre twenty twenty election cases we saw them sort of effusing about how cool this was. And then we have a fourth Justice, Kavanaugh, who's done some like chin stroking e like, oh, this is kind of I think this is pretty compelling, but isn't necessarily all in.

So it's probably coming down to Amy Cony Barrett is going to decide this case. That's that's your best guess right now.

My guess is that John Roberts thinks this is too extreme, and he's written lots of prior cases, famously an Arizona case where he has said time and time again, we're not taking state just judges powers away over state legislatures. So I think he's pretty much going to adhere to some version of that.

This is wackad do right. Have we made that point enough?

This is insane, and John Roberts is many things insane, he is not, so yes, I think it comes down to what Justice Barrett thinks, and we have no idea on this doctrine.

What she thinks.

Well, this issue has popped up over the last hundred years. Supreme Court has batted it out over and over again. Why is it cropping back up now?

It's cropping back up as part of this kind of larger, larger and I think this goes to your sort of vote suppression frame. What do you do when you can't win majorities anymore in America?

Right?

What you do is you capture state houses and then you jerrymander the heck out of your state voting systems

They can't veto this. So I think one way.

To sort of lock in minority rule for time immemorial is to just make it impossible for majority will to be represented at the ballot box.

Go big or go home, and while you're at home, just stay there because there's no reason to go out to vote, or.

That you can have an entire orderly election.

And this is where folks should think about what happened in Georgia in twenty twenty, where you have a completely orderly, non chaotic election and then you have the legislature be like, hmm, no.

We don't like those electors.

Let's go for this slate of it, which is what John Eastman and Donald Trump were asking Brad Rafinsberger to do. So I want to be super clear that issue is not I think in the four corners of what this appeal is.

But I think it's of like you have.

To draw a straight line between this and the kind of election denialism we're seeing in twenty twenty where you had dates and state legislatures being lobbied by Donald Trump, by Jenny Thomas, by John Eastman to be like and nevermind what the voters say, let's do it this way.

Well, let's let's draw that line. So we do have conspiracy theorists and election deniers in pretty prominent positions. Granted, quite a few of them did lose in the midterms, including Kerry Lake and Arizona, who is now contesting her loss for governor even though the results have already been certified. Is it crazy to think that whole states that have election deniers and their legislatures could just choose to throw out the results in federal elections.

I don't think it's crazy, and I think, in fact, one of the things this doctrine is setting up is the stepping stone toward that right. I mean, the reason it didn't happen in twenty twenty when Donald Trump called Georgia and said, you know, give me a fresh ballot of fake electors is that there was no architecture in place to.

Support that right.

This case would be part of building the architecture that says state legislatures can.

Do whatever they want.

It is unreviewable, nothing can go to a state Supreme court. And one other point again on this is there's an easy way to solve this particular North Carolina case, which is the actual legislature in North Carolina has already said that the state judiciary can review these questions.

So this is an easy case.

It shouldn't even be a question because the legislature has taken this power away from itself. But I do think you're exactly right to say this is really a building block toward a future where state legislature's power are so utterly unreviewable or even creepily reviewable only by the US Supreme Court, that you should just stay home.

Well, you say this shouldn't even be a question, and I guess I'm curious what that says about our country's political ideology and also the ideology of the justices. There are a number of conservative legal figures who are coming out against the Supreme Court even hearing this case. The fact that they are, what does that say about the ideology of the justices.

So this is, without a doubt for me, the most interesting part. Right, You've got Mike Loutig, the guy who almost got Chief Justice John Roberts seat at the Court right, he was on the shortlist. This is a stalwart conservative legal movement giant. He's also the guy, by the way, who you may recall Mike Pants was like, dude, can I do this thing that Donald Trump is asking me to do and not certify the election. It was Mike Lutigg, you know, conservative legal giant, who was like, no, Mike,

A six justice supermajority.

Everything in the world they wanted last term, abortion, guns, you know, kneecapping, the EPA, kneecapping the CDC.

Everything they wanted, they got.

Everything they didn't get last year they're getting this year. So this is just a my friendly allotment at Michigan calls it the hashtag Yolow Court. You know, they used to have some solicitude and sensitivity for what the public could tolerate, and I think now they're like directly in opposition to what.

The public can tolerate.

They're like, oh, eighty percent of Americans hate this, let's do it.

Great.

This is what an uplifting conversation. It's so good to hear about the people who are pulling the levers here. Okay, so let's if states choose to do this. If this is a situation that does come into fruition, what happens next is that it for democracy? Is there anything people in these states could do to prevent that?

Well, I think that you're going to see very much what you're sort of seeing Postdobs, which is blue states will rush to bolster blue state supermajorities and will create, you know, supermajority districts, and will do all the things that New York tried to do and failed to do in the midterms. But you'll see red states rushing to bolster you know, the power of Republican supermajorities in all

And that's pretty scary.

The important question I think we're all thinking about what does this mean for me in the short term? Am I going to go out into the world and just here stop the steal forever or at least until rogue red states decide to reinstall President Trump again.

That is what we call a Stephen Bryer four part hypothetical question. Can we start with There's so many pieces of that. I mean, I think what it really means is that, first of all, this is an incredibly abstract case.

Nobody understands this case. This should be bigger than Bush v. Gore.

The implications, as I said, are vast, and yet I think folks are just like flummoxed right on the Stop the steel folks, I have to say, just looping back to where you started, Jordan, I'm pretty happy about the fact that the Stop the Steelers got absolutely schill Act in the midterms, because it tells me it was not as salient as they thought.

It was, and more urgently, and I think the.

Polling really showed this people kind of like democracy. I mean, it was one of the issues that people showed up, you know, in addition to reproductive rights. People were really anxious that the machinery of crushing democracy had kind of gotten a toe hold. And so I actually think it's not to say this isn't a worry. It's a huge worry because the Supreme Court, as we have both stipulated,

That's bad, let's agree.

I think that folks recognized that after Dobbs in a way they didn't. And I think that the ability to just sit there and like take it on the chin because the Supreme Court says so is much. I think the taste for that is in decline right now. I think people are sort of angry and so I'm not as hopeless as you sound.

Well, I will drink to that. That looks like a good place to end. Daliolithwick, thank you for coming out of the podcast.

It was a pleasure. Thank you.

Well, that's it. The end of our six episode limited edition mini series something like that. It's a limited series, it's a podcast, whatever it is. We did six episodes. It's what we said we're gonna do, and now we've wrapped it up and there's a chance we'll come back because there's always a world in which Americans believe dumb shit, and we want to talk about all of that. Thanks

Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show wherever you.

Get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show week nights at eleven.

Ten Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fair Amount Plus.

This has been a Comedy Central podcast