Masha Gessen - Examining Russia's Autocracy in "The Future Is History"

Let's let's let's talk about that. Let's get straight into that idea. Putin should not be a monarch. Do you think in many ways Putin has managed to cement his power as in effect monarch of Russia. Absolutely. There are no elections. There are no elections for you know, congress of the Russian equivalent of a congress um, and there's there's a presidential election, but no one can get on the ballot without puts in his personal permission, and no

one can campaign, which seems fair. I mean, he thinks he's the best person for the job. He genuinely does. He is someone who for a long time has felt though that his standing in the world has been diminished he's someone who has felt for a long time that Russia isn't where it should be in the world. Would you argue that that's all he wants from America and from from the EU and all of the powerful nations out there, You know, the kind of leader that he

is basically an autocrat. Uh there, I don't think there's such a thing as all he wants. He very much wants to be taken seriously, very much wants to be treated as an equal partner by the United States. Um, but he will always want more. I mean, it's it's in the nature of that kind of leadership to want to expand. And it's also in the he needs to constantly sort of create the illusion of movement in order

to be able to mobilize the population. It's interesting that you say the illusion of movements because you've written extensively about Vladimir Putin and understanding authoritarianism, looking at what it comes within, what it entails. When you look at Vladimir Putin and you look at Donald Trump, are they the same person? Are they similar or are the aspects of

what they're doing that reminds one of the other. They're not. Actually, that's similar, right, Um, I mean emotionally, they're completely different. Trump is raw emotion and Putin is he prides himself of being so controlled, right and Trump crying watching a movie emotion Not exactly what I mean. But uh, you know, they come from different histories and everything about them is different.

But there's certain things that I think are characteristic of autocrats that after twenty years of covering Putsin, I sort of trained my eyes to see that, right, Such like I have I have optics, well like for Trump and Puttin, one amazing similarity is the way they lie, right, Um, which most politicians who sometimes lie, will want you to come around to their point of view. They want to get you to believe something. These guys lie to as certain power. The more absurd what they say is the

more power they have asserted. It's basically saying, you know, I will say whatever I want whenever I want to. I don't understand that is that? Then basically having the power to define reality? Is that what it is? I truly don't understand how they see that as a powerful thing, because you would assume everyone's looking at them, going but but you're lying. Well, it's two things. Actually, One is having a power to to define reality. Right. It's not

I'm not just president of the country, I'm king of reality. Right. But there's it's also a bully tactic. I mean, it's like the kid who's still in your lunch box and you're saying, you stole my lunch box, and he's holding it. He says, no, I didn't take your lunch box, right, And he has the power. That's interesting when you when you look at Putin and trans relationship. The media has been focusing on it. You you cannot escape it on

the news in the u US. Um, do you feel that this is the right amount of attention that should be paid towards it or is there a different way to look at it? As someone who has been an expert at what the Russians want to what's happening with Russia American relations, how do you think it should be

handled as a as a topic, as an idea. It's important, obviously, and and Russian interference in the election is important, but I would argue that actually what's out in the open is much more important than whatever an investigation has un

earth for at least at this point. Right. Um. I mean, we saw Donald Trump say openly that he wants Russia to hack Hillary Clinton's email, right, And so I don't quite understand the excitement when nearly a year later, it turns out that Don Jr. Said in private and confidence the exact same thing his dad said in public for

all the world to hear. But when when some people say, yeah, but that's different, he said it, but then he claimed that he was being sarcastic, whereas with Don Jr. It looked like this was an action these people were willing to conclude with the Russians. Right. But I think again, we knew that, right, and and I think it's important to react to what's out in the open. What's out in the open is Trump's admiration for Putin. What's out in the open and Trump's is Trump's explicit understanding that

political power is what Putin does. Right. It's controlling a country. It's it's governing by decree. It's basically an establishing an autocracy. There are many people who say Putin and Trump company that's similar, because Putin is oppressive of the LGBTQ community in his country. But Donald Trump has said that he

would be an allied to the very same community. Right, So I actually wrote a piece I usual to write a piece a year ago UM in which I argued that that if Trump became president, he would likely reverse progress in lgbt Q rights. And it was a weird thing to do because when I was writing it, I thought, logically, I know this to be true. Emotionally I couldn't believe it. But I was right. Even as I wrote it, I thought, well, it's impossible, you know, It's like, it seems that we

have made so much progress. There's no way it can be reversed. Plus, Trump had said, you know, he had draped himself literally in the rainbow flat um. And yet it was it was the most recent social change. It was the most uh, it was the fastest social change. But I think even more than that, And I think this is where uh what his What he did a year to the day after I wrote that article, with tweeting that transgender people weren't going to be allowed to

serve in the military. What he did was something that's emotionally good, that emotionally actually goes to the heart of Trump is um, which is very anti modern. It's it's this promise of return to this imaginary past that is so simple that everybody's role is assigned at birth, and you know, you're born to be a carpenter or a farmer, and and you will live in the same border for the rest of your life. And you're a born man or woman and it can never change and nothing about

you can change that. I mean, it's it's it's it's an almost mystical kind of past, but it's the kind of past that that he promised us. You know, he ran on the promise of an imaginary past. And the emotionally sort of saying to Americans, look, you're not going to have to face the possibility of inventing yourself right is very important for him. So if we have to look at Putin and Trump and their relationship as it stands, um, I believe the Senate just moved the bill forward now

to the president's desk sanctions on Russia. That seems like it's going to be a major point for Trump. He's going to have to openly say yes, I am completely with the United States, or I'm going to deny this. So I'm going to veto this bill and and not support the sanctions. Do we know anything about their relationship beyond what we're told in public. Is there anything that we should be looking for as someone who is familiar with the Russians and as someone who's seeing Donald Trump

at the same time. Um, So again, I mean, I think that we should be looking at what's out in the right. We should really, at all costs try to avoid the kind of conspiracy thinking that a leader like Trump, who's himself a conspiracy theorist produces. Right, you want to marry it and look for the hidden secret instead of just staring at the truth. That uh, that that stars you in the face. Um. But frankly, I don't think the Putin is as interested in lifting sanctions as as

he claims to be. There's a particular set of sanctions that, um, that Russians are very interested in lifting. And those are the sanctions opposed by the Magniski Act, right, Um. And that's that's when they talk about adoption, they actually talk about those sanctions. Those sanctions are important because they target people personally, they target their assets personally, and they have

really felt the pain. When the country at large feels the pain, that actually is not it doesn't necessarily hurt Plutin, and in a way, it's a mobilizing tool. For him because Russia has been sort of gathered around Putin, who has said that Russia's war with America has been saying that for basically the last four or five years. So scary story and ships that you're wearing makes it lights at the same time, Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your mind. If you say this way, we'll

get available at the front. If you can cree on it now. Mashal Guest and everybody, What's the Daily Show? Weeknights and eleven ten Central on Comedy Central. In stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast