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My guest tonight is a national correspondent for Bloomberg BusinessWeek and best selling author whose new book is called The Rebels. Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocazia Cortes, and the Struggle for a New American Politics.
Please welcome, Joshua Green. Josh Welcome. Welcome. All right, John, see your last book.
Your last book, Devil's Bargain, was about Steve Bannon and the rise of far right populism. This book is looking at the far left and the rise of populism in the progressive movement. Is this what you brought us for Valentine's Day?
I'm giving you the gift of a book that's not about Trump or Biden or the depressing presidential rematch.
It's going to dominate our lives for the.
Yes, that's my gift to you.
This is Arrested for people who need a break. Read about Bernie said, Yes, you talk about this book about the rise of the left and the progressive and the progressive movement and populism, and also you talk about how it has a symbiotic relationship with the more moderate wing and the Joe Biden side of it all. Talk to me, how you see those two things working symbiotically.
Yeah, well, I mean, the book starts in two thousand and eight, because I date the rise of this left populist movement to the reaction from the financial crisis, and after that, everybody was angry. There was a big backlash. On the right, it led to the Tea Party and to Donald Trump.
But on the left it.
Gave rise to people like Warren who were able to articulate the deep dissatisfaction a lot of Americans had with the fact that the government was bailing out Wall Street banks, but that they weren't helping the middle class. And you know, over the years we saw with the rise of Warren, who used her platform, including places like The Daily Show
to to spread this message. You saw the rise of Bernie Sanders and his presidential race, and ultimately this just became an important part of Democratic Party politics.
And when Donald Trump won, I.
Think it woke up a lot of Democratic officials who said, gosh, we better listen to these people. And Joe Biden's presidency has really managed to kind of unite the populaces and the moderates. He's put into place a lot of things that Warren and Bernie and AOC have argued for. And so we're heading into the November election with Democrats really unified behind Joe Biden.
Now that's interesting. It's interesting you say that.
Mostly.
Because I don't I theoretically see that. It doesn't seem as if that is the feeling. I would say most Democrats, they don't feel like they're lining up charged ready.
To vote for Joe Biden right now.
I think a lot of more far left Democrats still feel like their voices aren't being heard. How are are their voices being heard and seen through a vessel like Joe Biden.
Well, I think you look at it two different ways.
At the national level, all of the important UH left wing democrats, including my three characters, have all come out and endorsed Biden. Nobody decided to run against him, which they could have if they wanted to. UH, and even AOC, who's had some problems with him lately, came out yesterday and said she thought he was one of the best presidents in recent US history.
So they're pretty much united.
But when it comes to the actual kind of rank and file of left leaning voters, especially younger voters.
There is a.
Lot of dissatisfaction with Biden. Maybe that's because of its age.
She's kind of old.
He looks like Grandpa. Maybe it's because of his kind of old, really old.
It looks a lot like Grandpa. Sure, yes, so does Trump.
But yes, they're both they're both quite old shoes.
Yes, But the challenge for Biden is going to be how can he bring those younger people back into his coalition? And I think one hope is that, you know, my characters will be effective surrogates. It's you see that or he's gonna have to count on, you know, going on TikTok and trying to attract them an other unorthodoted ways that you know, maybe the Biden campaign is going to be so good A.
Well, you talk a lot about economic populism and what people across America really want and that this movement sort of started from people being disaffected post two thousand and eight. You spend a lot of time on the field you're covering this election. I was recently in South Carolina and Biden has pretty good numbers right now. When it comes to the economy, the stock markets up, inflation seems to be going down. You know, we have unemployment that is
incredibly low right now. But when I talk to the MAGA folks, those aren't the indicators that they care about, partially because yes, but I think sometimes it's a political dodge.
But sometimes what they focus on is gas, and oftentimes gas could never be low enough for folks, but housing, housing is an indicator that they feel like the Biden administration is not dealing with and the real people in America are frustrated with that as an indicator, Like are the Democrats missing that conversation looking at the middle parts of America what they're actually disaffected by.
No, I don't think they're missing it.
And there's been a ton of worry about inflation, of course, that's that's been the main challenge that Biden has had to deal with. And you hear that from Republicans, independence and Democrats. You know, unless you spent the last three years, like only eating at a taco bell, like, you've probably experienced price inflation and you're not real happy about it.
I bet also you're not really happy about it if you spent the last few years just reasons too.
Yeah, but look, look, you know, people's views of the economy are looked at through the lens of political partisanship. It's true for Democrats, they were very unhappy about the economy Pole said when Donald.
Trump was president.
So there's a certain group of people and their maga Republicans who are probably never going to be happy with the state of the economy under Joe Biden.
But what you really need to look at.
Are Democrats and independents. And the one thing that Biden really has going for him running for reelection is that, you know, he dealt with the deepest financial crash we've had since the Great Financial Crisis, the one that followed the COVID crash, by doing what my characters wanted to do, what Warren and Sanders did, we had three rounds of stimulus and beefed up unemployment benefits and student loan freezes, and the economy three years later is in really strong shape,
as you pointed out. So Biden's best hope is that, you know, in the ensuing nine months, people are not going to be able to ignore all these positive signs of four to one k is going to go up, They're going to get a good job, they're going to feel more positive, and we can see measures like consumer sentiment that have turned around pretty strongly, so that you know, the way I think of Biden's reelection is like, it's not like the Olympics where you have to put up
a perfect score. You just have to do better than the other guy. And the things are trending in a direction where where you know, it's like it's at least an attainable goal, we hope, right, the world's slowest hundred yard dea the world.
Yeah, exactly, yes, So.
If we're still running, or we're still running, it's interesting to say that he needs to articulate those successes. But since you wrote this book, we've had what's happening with Israel and Palestine, and I think we are starting to see a real shift in the Democratic Party. Obviously AOC's response probably not surprising to folks, but Bernie and Warren have been vocally critical of Bebie, leaving Biden in a
weird location right now. How do you see him squaring that with a party that he needs to win over and these rebels as you call them, clearly taking a much stronger tact.
Yeah, it's a great question.
I mean, in a lot of ways, the story of my book is the story of how Democrats came together on economics over the last fifteen years. But just in the last couple of months, we've seen a new fissure open up between the left and the center and the Democratic Party over Israel. And it's something that I think kind of has taken the Biden White House by surprise. Biden initially came out was very much pro net and Yahoo and then as things at South and Gaza, and you.
Could see the.
Rebellion of the left flank, of ordinary act and file voters, but also of important elected Democrats like AOC like Bernie Sanders. It's a problem that they don't really know how to square. And so you've seen the White House express concern and all these kind of Washington buzzwords. But I don't think
that that's really satisfying anyone. And that's something they're going to have to figure out, because in a divided country like we've had in what I'm sure shaping up to be a fifty to fifty election, they're going to need every vote they can get. And these are a group of voters right now, people who are upset about Israel's campaign in Palestine that don't at least don't tell pollsters that they're real excited to vote for Joe Biden right.
Now, What do you see the demo Democratic Party reflecting. Is it reflecting more of an AOC version of the Democratic Party or is it a Biden's version.
It's a good question.
I think if you look at where the Democratic Party is today visa VI where it was, let's say in two thousand and eight during the last crash at the beginning of the book, completely different party. When I came to Washington as report in two thousand, Biden was considered so pro corporate that we used to kind of jokingly
call him the Senator from Corporate America. But if you flash forward fifteen years to Joe Biden as president today, he's out walking on UAW picket lines, instituted a recovery plan that was geared so much toward the middle class, that pushed so much money out the door to working
people that actually cause inflation. And you look at what it is that politicians like Warren and Sanders have called for, and I think that's really a large degree of unity on economics, and that's one reason why the party has remained unified behind Joe Biden. So I think He's come a long way in kind of melding the two wings of the party in a way that really kind of points the direction.
Forward for Democrats generally.
I think I don't think we're ever going to go back to a time when, if there's another financial crisis, Democrats are going to hand all the money to Wall Street banks.
I think they've learned that lesson.
And I think Joe Biden's success in twenty twenty and if he has success in twenty twenty four, I will help to underline that message.
Well, it's a great read. The Rebels is available now, God's great. Everybody.
My guest tonight is an actor you know from Captain Marvel, No Time to Die and The Woman King. She plays Bob Marley's wife Rita in the new biopic Bob Marley. One Love, Please welcome, Lashana Lynch, God welcome.
No, right, right, they're lovely, right, lovely?
I love her love they are?
Yeah. Might you say it's all one love?
Oh?
I like it. That's nice. It was nice. It was nice.
It was very.
Nice going through some of the things you've you've picked up over the last few years when you're part of the Marble cinematic universe.
You learn to fly a plane.
Yeh uh.
In Woman King, you learned how to fight in No Time to die. You learn how to arm and disarm and fire a gun. Do you feel ready for the impending apocalypse? Yes?
Yes, you've done the work. You've prepped for it, prep my life. You found a way to get paid for it.
So whatever happens post November, you're going to be in a great space.
Basically, Yes, you got.
Settle skills and you've got to get into it.
You can now write it off on your taxes.
It's great. Exactly what did you do?
That's what I was trying to do. This is smart, all right?
Yes, what did you What skill did you pick up working on the latest movie One Love?
None of that, None of that, none of that much much lighter emotional grasp. Oh, yes, definitely, there's a lot of there's a lot of holding. You know, Molly is a strong, very powerful, balanced, spiritual woman, so I had to make sure that she was grounded at all times.
You had to work on yourself.
You had to work on myself, my spiritual self, my inner self. Make sure that I was collected enough to take all of the experiences of all the training that you just told me about and put them into good use.
Now, I think you know what a lot of people think of Bob Marley. Perhaps they're not as familiar with the story of Riata Marley. Right for me, in college, Bob Marley, I love Bob Marley. He was a poster on a wall and I thought Legend was an album that he made as opposed to a Greatest Hits album, which is the mistake most college kids made at that point, but they weren't aware of readA Marley. When you watch this film, you see that she's really the backbone of
the Bob Marley story. Like, when you read this, what did you know about Rita's story and what drew you to this?
Well, my parents are Jamaican, They're born in Jamaica. So I had a responsibility to take the role and make sure that it was everything that it needed to be represent Rita Marley way that she deserved to and also to uphold the legend's story, the legend that we know today, you know didn't come from nowhere. She literally is the backbone that she held everything together. She ensured that you know, her children are I mean, the geniuses that they are today.
And I just wanted to make sure that the remarkable woman remained a remarkable woman in the story, and that the female narrative was told in the way that we know it should be, especially as a woman, as a black woman and of Jamaican descent. I just wanted to make sure that everyone was on the same page.
That I would say that feels stressful to a big backpack.
Light stress, yes, just light stress.
I mean my parents are from Michigan, so if I had to play Eminem that would be a lot of stress for me.
Make sure you get it right, to it right. Yeah, maybe kid Rock would be an easier fit. Sadly, I don't know.
We could talk to someone make it happen.
Yeah, him, if you're out there and let me, I know, you're a better actor than I am and more successful.
You could probably play yourself. But think about me. Yeah, yeah, you met Rita Marley, right.
Not only is it the pressure of upholding this this real life figure who is still alive and people have opinions about her and what her role is, but you're also you're also creating this role in the shadow of somebody who is there and watching.
Correct.
What was it like to to meet Rita Marley and what did you glean from her?
Sometimes you meet someone and it feels like a film. Like I walked into her house and her back was turned to me, and it kind of felt like I'd imagine smoke underneath her chair and like clouds above her, and it just felt like I was walking into some kind of like heavenly space because she's just really quite angelic, actually really peaceful and chill. And I remember when I stepped in, I'd only been there for like a minute, and her daughter, Sharon was like, Mom says that she's really.
Happy that you're here.
And she says that you have the energy, like whatever that means.
And I was like, okay, the energy, the energy?
Oh did you said did you know what the energy was? Or you were like, oh what am I giving off? Is it pheromone?
It vibe? Tell me what the energy? Tell me what the energy? Exacly?
Can you look?
Just describe that to me so I know that I'm in the right place, like I've.
I got the wrong address because I don't know what I'm doing.
No, it was it was like a kind of a meeting of spirits. It felt like because when I did eventually sit down with her. I left my book that had three pages of notes in it in my bag and just sat on the floor and across my legs and just kind of like looked up to her almost like a little schoolgirl looking at her teacher, and just soaked her in, soaked in her spirit and her energy.
And it reminded me that this process has to I kind of have to kick the actor thing to the side and realize that I'm a vessel bringing this incredible woman's life or slice of her life to the globe. And like you said, you know Bob Marley, and there's
information for days on the internet about him. With Rita Marley, you you know, unfortunately culturally less so, but it was an opportunity for me to give the world an education on how incredible she is and how meaningful she is to our culture in Jamaica and in the continent of Africa.
Like she's just so powerful.
And her voice has been you know, doing all sorts of it's like her voices like that phone. It's just kind of like do you feel like do you know what I mean?
Is that the energy?
Energy?
That's what I'm talking about, the energy exactly that Thank you so much. For that que well timed.
You really you've described like an intimacy with a person that, unfortunately, I don't know if I've ever experienced with another human being in my own life. That came off like a cry for help.
And I you really bringing up of people, don't you.
Oh my god, take a minute, he's just going to take a set.
Oh god, oh god, I didn't. I didn't learn enough of my acting classes. Should take over? Yes, yeah, good? Please please? Did you get notes on set from family members?
Yeah?
Yeah, we did, no, but I needed them.
I really needed them, because you know, as an actor, you do your research and you sit with the character.
We have like eight months, I think myself and Kingsley to sit with it, have the conversations develop, her speak with Rita Marley again, and then we had Ziggy Marley and Sidella Marley on set near and every day just to kind of tweak things, you know, to give us the accuracy and to give us the guidance and the confidence that we needed because we were playing real legends here and we didn't want to do anything by chance
and kind of make anything up that wasn't realistic. So every so often I'll go to the monitor and be like, do I sound like your mom?
Like would your mom say this? Do I feel like your mom today.
Right now?
And you'd be like, yeah, yeah, all good, all good, and of course in my active self and go away and be like, I'm not like his mom.
Terrible.
I don't know what's happening.
But he just in the map being like mom, no, mom, Mom, no, mommy.
No, let's shrill, let's set good.
Ok. Yeah yeah.
Until we got to the end of the shoot and I thought, you know what we've done. We've done a good job in telling this story. We have an hour and forty five roughly to tell a whole life, thirty six years of this man, and we were able to do it in a really succinct way. And I'm proud of it, and I'm proud of Kingsley.
He's a pretty evolve.
It is.
It's a it's a beautiful movie, and it really brings you into his life and you bring it out wonderfully.
Bob Marley One Love is in theaters now. The Shadow List.
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