You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes, The Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the show, like if you had hot chocolate? Like okay, Like the Daily Show is a cup of hot chocolate, and we're all the little extra condiments and all the little extra stuff you add in to make it that much sweeter. We're the whipped cream, the caramel swirl, the large marshmallows, the
cinnamon powder. And I should have made that for myself. A fight did this podcast? Now I'm hungry? Anyway, Today we're diving deeper into a topic covered on The Daily Show by a correspond to Dulce Sloan. In her segment, Dull saying she covered the various gender stereotypes present in children's books Give me a clip.
The fact is, children's books play a big role in shaping our views as adults, whether it's about race, culture or proper pooping etiquette. But one of the areas they influenced kids the most is gender roles. And that's a big problem because when it comes to gender, most of these books are more outdated than a pair of Jenko Jane.
I mean, why were they so big?
We try to sneak Kevin Harn's in a movie because chances are he's already in it. But speaking of little people, this is something we should all be paying attention to because by the age of seven, children's ideas about what they can be when they grow up are already formed. And what do you think those ideas are gonna be when they've been reading books like this? Dick and Jane the book series that almost every first grader was reading in the nineteen fifties and sixties, and it was notorious
for portraying stereotypical gender roles. Look at that the dad and the brother are out playing with Spot and the mom is inside cleaning up spots.
I mean, what is that?
A pudler? Peek? Was r Kelly their dinner guest.
And look at poor Jane in this one. She can't even have a little fun without doing some chores. Can't a girl just roller skates? She asked the sweep too. What's next, You're gonna have to jump rope? I'll making a sandwich.
Joining us today for this conversation is Daily Show Deep dive researcher Stephanie Oh Stephanie is the one who actually pitched this segment. Stephanie, you are here because of your own creativity. Now you have more work to do by being on this podcast. How are you doing?
I'm doing good. I'm excited to be here.
I'm sure you are see rare ambition, gotcha. Also joining us is the CEO, owner and author of Hey Carter Books, Doctor Tamisha Booker. Doctor, Welcome to the show. How you feeling today? O?
Good? Thank you?
All right, Well let's get into this topic because this is one you know, as a father of a six year old, it's one that I'm starting to be a little more present in, you know, you know, like I found my son going that's a boy color and that's a girl color, and things of that nature, and that's nothing we've ever really taught at the house. But Stephanie, I want to start with you. What made you pitch this segment to the show.
I think for me, I just really reflected on like books that I read as a kid, and you know, we're in a period where a lot of books are being banned, so I was just like fascinated by that entire idea, like what children are reading, what they're interested in, and I stumbled upon some research that was particularly interesting that was basically saying that female characters are disproportionately like had certain roles like as maids or princesses and things
like that versus like male characters and children's books. And I was like, this is something we absolutely need to do a piece on.
So that's that's kind of how it happened.
And that's a cool thing about this building is that anybody can pitch anything at any given time, and it is game. Because when I saw those say do this piece, I was like, oh, well, yeah, yeah, what.
The hell is going on?
Because we you know, doctor book. The thing about the Daily shows that we're always kind of going back and forth with essentially two different types of stories. There is the story that you want to hear about and you want more information on, you know, what do people want to hear about versus what we think you need to know about, you know, And I think that's always kind of been the back and forth, like Stephanie, what books
did you read growing up? And like, did any of those books have an impact on this segment, you know, in terms of what you decided to pitch?
Definitely, So it's funny.
So like a book that I often read as a kid was like the Berenstein Bears series, and it was always interesting, like Sister Bear never really got to do a lot, or Mama Bear was always like in the kitchen. So that thinking back to those kind of stories definitely impacted this kind of this research and this information that I found. Also, another story I really loved as a kid was Amelia Badillia. I don't know if you guys know Amelia Vadilia. Okay, doc knows Amelia Vidilia.
I didn't. Encyclopedia.
Oh okay, you were reading Encyclopedia's Okay, you are much.
More accomplished, young child, you said, and it's Cyclopedia's like what. But so Amelia Vidilia was basically this maid, but she was always finding herself in these ridiculous situations. She was kind of like fumbling, bumbling. So in one hand I appreciated it for its comedic aspect as a comedian, like that was great to me at the time. But then when you start to think about, like as an adult, I think about those stories, it was like, why why
was she portrayed so dumb? Like she was running an entire household and she couldn't do it right, but somehow she still managed to keep her job to keep having these ridiculous scenarios. It was just it doesn't make sense as an adult. As a child, absolutely, but as an adult it's like, okay, well, how are we portraying this woman and why she portrayed in this way? And it becomes really just really fascinating.
So, doctor Booker, before you answered the same question, I'm gonna try and guess what she was reading as a child. I'm gonna I'm gonna try now that I don't want you to laugh. There was no judgment. If my guess is too far off, I'm gonna say a little bit of Curious George at first, just a sprinkling of Curious George. And then as you matriculated a little older in the middle school, i'm gonna say the Hobbit, And okay, fine,
what were you reading? What books were you reading? And not let that impact you as an adult.
I did read a little Curious George. It didn't stick out to me when I was reflecting on what I read. The Hobbit definitely not. What sticks out to me is babysitters clubs up to me, mostly what I remember is not being able to find myself in books, like not being able to find characters that look like me that reflected my experiences. A lot of that and I didn't
latch on to reading in books because of that. I was also raised by my grandmother who was white, my mom who's biracial, and they were not very centered in their blackness. So I was not surrounded by a lot of those books, and I think that just really impacted introductive of my life, especially just not having those direct messages.
Okay, so then recognizing where the gaps were, what was it that you thought was lacking in children's literature? Could you start writing the hay Card of books? But the only reason we start doing anything is because we think that we have something to offer that space that isn't already there. Like, you don't strike me as a person, just go, well, I can do with the Bernstein Bears? Do I just copy that? Like? No, you were clearly
trying to do something greater. But what was it that you thought was lacking and what was the problem that you were actively trying to fix?
So I think first a lot of in children's books, you see books about animals, right, people always want to write these children's books and showcase animals before they want to showcase a diverse or a black character. So for me, when I was pregnant with my son, I just felt the heaviness of what that meant. I felt the responsibility of that and wanted to do something. And it was also kind of a cathartic moment for me because it opened up this really creative part of me that I
did not tap into before. Most of all the writing that I did prior to becoming a mother was in school. You know. It was educational writing. It was curriculum based, it was research based, and so this was kind of like allowed me to untap a piece of myself. And I was doing research and trying to build my son's book library and realize where are all the black boys? I did not see them on the front cover. I did not see there was a lack of diversity and
children's books all around, but specifically black boys. And for me, writing books is not about just creating tools, but just changing narratives. Books have the ability to speak to children and tell them what the world thinks of them and
then what they should then think of themselves. And I wanted my son to have messages that were written by me, so much as that I was in control of and images that I was in control of that he can see himself and then when he steps into those spaces, it's a tool to be used in those spaces so he can have a positive narrative, an accurate narrative of who he is.
How difficult was it in trying to like the I guess the R and D and the development of it, Like I don't know a lot about literature and being an author and trying to bring a book to market, like the only comparison I could even have just as a layman, like I know, if I was trying to rap, I would put my wrap on a CD. Well not a CD now, but you would make a demo and then you would spread that around to people for free or try and get it in the hands of big
decision makers in the music industry. So when you decide to create a as a black woman author already black in a woman, Strike one, Strike two, and then you're writing about black boys, Strike three, what was the process of just even trying to get any of this to market.
Yeah, it's difficult. I mean I'm a self published author. Everything I've done has been on my own. I use money from my full time job to fund it. You know, I work as a hospital administrator and safety and it in Oakland, and so that was one of the hardest pieces is trying to fund this project and self publishing. It's difficult. I mean, you you you start off as wanting to write a book, but really what you stepped into is you're starting a book business. So you need
to have marketing strategy. There's branding, there's the illustrations, there's all this research you need to do. And to be honest, I made a lot of mistakes. I made some costly mistakes. I just had no clue. I was using Google to inform my decisions, which is terrible. If there's anybody who wants to write a book, specifically a children's book, you definitely need someone to guide you through that process.
FIGS list is where you should go.
You should You definitely need someone to sort of just kind of hold your hand through it because you can make some costly mistakes, which I did. And it has a little bit of what you said Roy about that, like you know, taking a CD and putting it there. I had to get my book to my community. I learned early on and quickly who my book was for
and how to get it in their hands. One of the first events I did was the Black Joy Parade in Oakland, and that's where my people are, that's where my community is, that's where black families are, that's where black children are. We sold out of books that day because we got it in the right hands. But I also learned a valuable lesson, which is don't understock your inventory. It's not a good thing to sell out of books.
You want to always have books to sell. So it's just been a continual journey of learning this book business. But it's a grind. It's constantly getting your books out there. I started in twenty sixteen, and you know here I am still talking about these books and more of my projects.
Well, after the break, I want to talk a little bit about the backlash that you face from having books that are focused that are so focused on one specific demographic, but also the benefits of this, and we'll get into that after the break. This is beyond the scenes, doctor Bookie. You've already made me feel infario as the father of a six year old because you've already included your child in the book series title, Hey Carter, my child. You know, I gave a cameo on one of my stand up
comedy specials, not quite the same thing. Do you think your son understands just just how amazing this is? Does he understand how rare this is?
It's funny you say that, because even with my book my son on the cover of several books, I'm still not cool enough for him, Like he's not sometime he's just not amused. You know, my book Brown Boy Joy was featured on Netflix where Joe Scott read my book, and of course I was just like, oh my god, this is so amazing. You know, you can tell Netflix to watch, mommy, you know, watch this. And he was like, oh, look, super underwhelmed by it. So I totally totally get where
you're coming from there. I think over time he sees it. You know, I wrote a recent book it's called Froze, Braids, Fades and Waves, and I used a painter to illustrate the book and they really were able to capture his face in a portrait style. And when I showed him the book, he's like, Mommy, it's me, and I'm just like, dude, it's been you it's always been you're on all the covers of these books, but I think he was actually
able to see it. I think, above all, he's super exposed to black entrepreneurship and black business, and I think he sees that. He sees us running a business, he sees us out there talking to the community, and so I know that has impacted him. Also, I think he's just really centered in his blackness. He's so far ahead of where I was as a child. I think I was. I know at his age, I was busy trying to
conform to whiteness, busy trying to hide my blackness. And you know, they hear me be unapologetically black, and so they know what that looks like and what that feels like. And so I think my books have really helped to center him in his blackness. And you know, when he's looking for a good bedtime story, it's nothing better than him pulling out Stephanie.
I know that we only have a limited amount of time and the dual saying segments to really get into you know, like we we essentially only have time for one or two things, how the problem happened, or how to solve the problem. And there's also a bigger degree of backlash that a lot of you know that a lot of authors like doctor Booker face What were some of the pieces that ended up on the cutting room floor for this segment that you all just didn't have the time to get to.
I guess I think of it more in terms of like specific stories that are like classics that are problematic that we didn't address. And a particular author comes to mind, Roald Dahl. He wrote like Matilda and the Witches and a series of other very famous and very popular children's books, and there was a lot of sexism in those books, but there was also a lot of anti semitism in those books and a lot of racism in those books.
And it was just I think it was more so a matter of he's got a lot of issues, we gotta we need to just bring it in and bring it down and kind of focus on the ones that we had, and I think we with the examples that we provided, they're very strong and obviously important examples as well.
But that would be someone I definitely would have loved to have seen in the piece, just because of his stories being so well known, like Matilda has been like a very successful movie franchise and stuff like that and so, and they've made a number of Witches movies as well, So that would be someone I would have liked to have added in there, because I, while we focus on sexism, you know, in this conversation, we're definitely talking about the
racial elements, and I think the piece wasn't necessarily able to address that.
And it's always.
Been an issue in children's book writing as well.
So well, let's let's let's do backlash from two different perspectives. I want to zoom in first on you dot book, and then I want to come back out to just the people who are against the revisions or at least acknowledging a lot of the bullshit that it's in a lot of the stuff that we've been reading up unto this day, and it's just accepted as literary cannon. But first, doctor Booker, was there any backlash from people for you
choosing black boys? Because what I do know about the Internet is that if you love one thing, everyone assumes you hate all the other things. So if you dare to say yay, black boys, please just just let me know that nothing else happened. Right, Everything is smooth.
You know, there's been a lot of different comments and feedback on the book. I mean, I think a lot of his questions like why, you know, asking me why are there only black boys in the books? You know, why are you choosing to write about black boys? And my response is always like why not. You know, black boys deserve their shine, they need to be front and centered, and my book Boks are about elevating black joy and there's nothing wrong about that.
You know.
People will say, you know, why are you writing a book just for black boys, And it's like, well, there's tons of books with just white characters, and we don't even refer to them as white books. We say that this is the education, this is the literature, this is what you need to consume, and it doesn't have this special title. So I always say my books are four black children. They're written for black children, but they are
not just for black children. They are for all children, and it's really really important that non black children consume the content and see all of the joy. One specific blacklash that I get a lot in Brown Boy Joy is I have a page in there where the kids, the boys are playing with toys and one of the boy is holding a doll that's literally all you see is he's holding a doll. And you know, I get messages and you can see on my Amazon reviews have very few, you know, one rated reviews, and they say
that I'm trying to emasculate black men. You know, I get DM saying, you know, why is this boy playing with dolls when this is a book for boys? And I'm like, aren't dolls toys? Do boys play with toys?
My sister, You've got to understand its you part of a capitalistic structure that dismanted the black family exactly.
So I just, you know, I you know, when this book particularly is about allowing as many black boys specifically to see themselves in that book. So that means them being interested in an array of hobbies. They're doing gardening
in the book. They of course they're playing with trucks and dinosaurs, but they're also having a slumber party, they're coloring, they're you know, they're they're just being in their joy and we can't we don't want to take that away from children, and we definitely want to put it front center.
What was it like when you first started experiencing this BA because I would imagine that when you first created this, you were just like, I just love black boys, yes, and then someone goes, you don't like black girls, Like how difficult is it to remain steadfast and what your creative north star is in the face of this type of constant feedback, you know, from a small but loud minority.
You know, I chose to self published because I wanted to be in control of the messages that I put out, when I wanted to save them, and how I wanted to save them. So though that type of feedback is just a reminder that I don't as a self published author, I don't answer to anybody. I create, I curate the content that I want for black children, and no one's
going to impact that. I mean, I was sort of I wouldn't say I'm shocked, because when it comes to centering blackness, there's always going to be opinions, There's always going to be people who try to dim our lights. So I wasn't, you know, too shocked by that. But it's just a reminder. It makes me want to, you know, write more books. It makes me want to be you know, even more deep into that black message, Like it makes me want to write books titled like I'm Black and proud.
You know, it wants me to really even go even further with it, so I sort of use it as as motivation and even just use it as a way to open up more conversation about why is it a problem for you to have black boys playing with a doll? Why is it a problem for you to see black boys happy? What is the problem with black joy and black happiness? Because it's not a problem for me, you know, so just trying to shift that back for them to do a little inner work and see really what that is.
And we know that's all centered around anti blackness, and that's definitely work that they need to do. Well.
We look forward to your next book, Kiss My Black Ass That's True, available in hardcover. Uh, Stephanie Doctor Booker is creating the type of literature that was missing in a time when the problematic literature flourished. Why do you think there is so much pushback nationally from people who don't even want to just sit for a second and acknowledge, Hey, maybe that wasn't as good of a book as we thought it was, and maybe we should stop fucking reading it.
I think that's the next question I would say. You know, I honestly think it has to do with nostalgia.
We couldn't even take the inn word out of huck Finn. They was like, come on, man.
No, no, it's nostalgia and it's holding on to these sort of old experiences and people associate maybe that book with their childhood and the in word with their childhood, and so it's old things exactly the good.
Old days, you know, back when America was great again.
That's what they're holding on to, that whole like idea of like nostalgia. And so especially when you go after something like children's books, it's like, well, it's just a book, what's the big deal, because they've got that nostalgia and that's problematic in the sense that it's like not wanting to move forward or not wanting to reflect on history.
And okay, so that was a story from your your past, but the context in which that story was written, there are a lot of people that were suffering and that were oppressed, and women were not in a good place and still struggling. But the women were not in a good place at all, and so to hold on to that and not and not see that, you know, the context in which that story was written was a bad
time for a lot of people. Is it's like intentionally obtuse, Like it's intentionally ignorant just for the sake of your own nostalgia, and that's probablematic It's like it doesn't take away from your memories, but it's like acknowledging that people went through something, and everything from children's books to cinema was influenced by what was going on in that time.
So that same point that doctor Booker, what have some of your conversations been with other authors. I'm sure that you all have had conversations about, you know, other authors that also choose to focus, you know, hyper focus on specific demographics or specific types of books. What has been the conversations amongst them as well about a lot of the backlash that's happening about actually having something that speaks to a specific group of people within literature.
I think most of the authors that I definitely surround myself with, they're I mean, they're with it with the uh, let's create all the banned books that we can. You know, we want to continue to create the books that we know our children need, and we are taking agency over our our creative works and wanting to make sure that our students are black students get this content and if
that means we have to create ourselves. And you know, to Stephanie's point about some of these books that I do think a lot of people are saying are nostalgic and feel like it's taking away their their childhood. It's it's a lack of accountability because they have to also and I think I get that it's painful too, because if you accept that the book is wrong, you also have to accept that the person who exposed you to
it was in the wrong. You have to also accept that the messages that you received growing up about that book were wrong. If I were to open up any of those books now and read them to my children, I as a parent, would not I would stop. I would stop reading the book, or I would use that as an educational moment to talk to my child about the things that are happening in the world. And that's what books are for. They're supposed to be teaching our
children lessons. Because all those books that these, you know, everyone says nostalgic, you learned something from that. You were you were taught how to behave as a woman, you were taught about what was acceptable as a boy, as a girl. You you took in all those messages and we can't continue to share this type of content with our children. And if their children are still reading those books, you have to think how that's impacting their life and how
they're going into their spaces with that information. Exuse, I know my children, my sons, particularly when he's reading the book, he's asking questions. You know, he asked me not too long ago, why are all the superheroes white? I said, that's a great question. First of all, they're not all of them. There are a few.
That are.
Fun.
Fun sponn made it deal with the Devil, but yeah, superhero Okay, So they get.
It, and you know, they get it and they're questioning things. And I think when you continue to show a child and narrative where little girls are only in the kitchen or submissive or don't even have speaking roles in books, you're teaching them something and they will begin to respond to that.
Well, we've talked about the problem. We've talked about the haters who creating the problem we talked about, But now we need to figure out some solutions to the problem and see how things have changed from our childhood until now. We'll wrap it up with a wonderful, wonderful discussion about children's literature. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right
back beyond the scenes. Welcome back. We are talking about children's literature and representation in children's literature, the problematic children's literature that we were all raised on, even though some of it, you know, it was it like, really, the Three Bears was a story about burglary, you know, you know,
and also a little bit about white entitlement. If you really want to get if you really dig and dig down into the real root of the issues, the white up a couple of these bears house eating up the shit. Oh I feel like I might. Okay, maybe I'm reaching with that part of it, but let's talk. You know, as as we wrap up here, ladies, have you seen a progression like just in terms of the representation in
children's books from your childhood until now? Because you know, I have a six year old, so I read a lot as a child, but most of what I read that I remember was books on tape of popular movies. So my mother would take me to a movie and then you would get the book version of that movie and then the tape and you would read along with the tape. And that's kind of how I learned to read.
So I never had like the plethora of Bearstein Bears or Bernstein or have it a hell you say it now, Like I didn't have the plethora of Doctor Seus's stuff. Like it was animal books and books on tape primarily. And so with my son, what I have noticed is that there's a huge amount of representation. And she'll television but which I know is much better than what it was in the eighties. But what about you all, And
I'll start with you, doctor Booker. How much better is representation from when you were a child until now?
You know, I'll definitely say it's better. I think just you know, as evidence of like my kids have a full bookshelves of just black books, you know, so I didn't have that. I definitely think there's a lot more. But we could do much. We mean, we have so far to go. We need a lot more books. And
I think even in television. You know, my work is centered around black boys, and you know, one of my goals has always been to create an animated series focused on boys, because you when you look at animated series for children. Where is the black boy front and center? Where is that brilliant black boy as the main character? You know, black children don't need to be the sidekick. They need to be the main character, in charge of the narrative and in a story that represents their their truth.
So yeah, Animated, No, there's not like aluding to Count Miles Morales Spider Man, because that's more teenager, you know, preteen, that's not like five six, seven year old or even.
Like the preschool shows. It sucks that my kid, my daughter is addicted to cocoa melon and there is one black character, but he's like not the main character. And I think they've tried to do that more recently, but the black boys they're just not They're not front and center, and that's a huge problem. I mean, there are some of my favorite books I love I Am Every Good Thing by Derek Barnes. It just it's all about that black joy and just putting black boys front and center
and all. They're brilliant, and that's one of my favorites right now.
Stephanie, what about you? What were some of the things that you read growing up? And I guess have you seen a progression just in terms of the research that you did for this piece that you go, oh, okay, it is a little bit better.
Yeah, I would have to agree with doctor Booker. There definitely is a progression. We are seeing a lot more representation, particularly thinking about like black girl characters and girls being able to thinking about the piece in particular, girls being able to have jobs that are not like made or princess or some sort of damsel in distress, but actually
being able to be like a scientist. Like I think there's an entire and I do not recall the name of the series, but there's like an animated series with a little black girl that's like into science and exploration and that's on Ada. Thank you on Netflix, Yes, Yes, on Netflix, and so things like that I think is wonderful. But I would say that I think we're in a period of where there's like a lot more representation starting to develop because of a lot of things that have
happened twenty twenty. Being one of them is like, oh wait a minute, people actually want to see themselves. We still have a long way to go, and I think going from limited to no representation to suddenly there's representation, that doesn't mean that the problem is solved. It means
that Okay, now we're here, we're at ground floor. We were in hell, now we're at ground floor, and then we just go up from there and continue to make them more dynamic and more interesting and in different places where you wouldn't expect them to be, or doing different things. And so I think that there's still a long way to go.
Yeah, doctor Booker, I want to end with this and forgive me if this question is a little too broad, but I want to expand it a little bit beyond just young black boys, for parents of whatever child they have, and whatever demographic that child, whatever boxes that child might check. Why is it important to read to children with literature that represents their identity? Like, how does that help restore an innocence in a child?
Yeah, I mean protecting the innefence of children is super important. I think you know saying earlier that books have the ability to essentially teach children what the world is thinking of them, which they in turn will think of themselves. And so if you are showing a child a book that they cannot see themselves in, they start to question
where they fit in. And I think really people underestimate how dangerous the lack of representation can be when a child is in a classroom, when they are in their homes reading, they need to be able to literally see themselves on the pages. You have to see it to believe it right, in order to know that things are possible. If there is a boy who doesn't feel like his identity is reflected, he then starts to feel like he
cannot be himself. He cannot show the world who he really is because because obviously in the books that he reads, which are telling him what the world thinks of it, he doesn't even exist. So, you know, for some parents who are uncomfortable with certain topics, are uncomfortable with exposing their children to things. Books are a way to have that conversation for you, if you choose the right book.
And so it's important to have a diverse library selection, to have books that are going to teach those messages and surround your children with all the spectrum of identities, the spectrum of culture, the spectrum of various ethnicities, and just experiences. Children have to be exposed to narratives that differ from their others. You do not want them centered in a world that is singular that only involves people that look like them and have the same experiences them.
Some people will say to that, then, why black books just about with black children. It's like, well, we need to center around our blackness because we've had so much anti blackness saying a counter narrative. So that's why these books are important for us. But I expose my children to a variety of books. It's not just just read these black books, but definitely take those in and read all books and really teaching them to question and think
about what books are telling them. So I would say to parents, when you're reading these books afterwards, have a conversation, what did you see in this book? What did this book teach you? How do you feel about yourself now that you've read this book? What does this tell you about your friends and their family members. So books are tools not just about reading comprehension, but messages throughout life.
I don't think that there's a better place for us to dispount than right there. Thank you so much for your expertise and sharing it with us today, doctor Booker, Stephanie O. I will see you in the hallways of the Daily Shop. I got to swing by the deep dive you do, and I come down there, y'all too far. That's it's like nine offices all the way down the hall. I don't do a nine office walk three four doors
at the most. Thank you all so much for joining us, and hopefully by now we've taken you beyond the scenes. Play my music. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show wherever you.
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