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Here's a relatable question. Do you ever get a job that you weren't totally qualified for? I know I have. Turns out not everyone's cut out to be a thoracic surgeon, But maybe things would have turned out differently from me if I had a famous dad, like if my dad was the president of the United States. This is the focal point of the Republican conspiracy theory around Hunter Biden, that he used his connection to his dad, Joe Biden,
to make money and overseas deals. And yes, obviously this is coming from the people who supported Donald Trump and his family as they milked every government connection they could for four years, like in Ocean's eleven movie if it took place during a Nickelodeon shopping spring. Now, if that reference is too far removed for you, then apologies in advance.
Because the Hunter Biden story has so many references to things that seem fake Cafe Milano, Sino Hawk, the secret Willard Hotel breakfast that we probably should have made a Hunter wiki ahead of time just to help you through it. As Jordan Klepper fingers, the conspiracy, We've got to packed episode today We're gonna walk through the conspiracy theory known
as Hunter Biden's Laptop with a Fox News expert. Then Democratic Congressman Jerry Connolly will discuss the House's strategy responding to an investigation, and then Tippity Cross will talk the media's responsibility. Before we even start, you should know that
it's not even proven there is a laptop. There is a hard drive copying from what a Trump supporter who owns a computer repair shop in Delaware says was a laptop that he handed over to the FBI, But nobody's seen a picture of it, and what the hell, let's
just dig his word for it. The Hunter Biden laptop saga is a fantastical right wing reverie concocted during the twenty twenty campaign by Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump, and of course Fox News, which means it's inevitable that I heard the words Hunter Biden laptop constantly at Trump rallies, even if the people there didn't exactly know what it is.
You can see on Fox and One American News was about the the laptop, the Hunter Biden's laptop, and then all the crupts and taking money from the different countries, you know from Russian and then Joe Biden would do whatever these countries needed.
Oh what either what.
He did or did not do?
What didn't? What did he do?
You have to be determined exactly what he did.
I saw pedophilia and China something like that. I don't know.
We see about like the Hunter Biden scandal.
What exactly happened with that?
I think they found a laptop that had you know, emails and it was an FBI. They found a laptop with like emails and pictures of you know, Biden talking with like Ukraine and China about business deals and stuff like that.
Which Hunter Biden did it?
Something that happened?
I mean the conspiracy theorists would say that it's Joe Biden and Hunter Biden communicating with you know, outside countries on business deals and stuff like that.
Are you calling him a conspiracy theorist? That's just what he said, right. Okay, let's help these private investigators out of the little bit. Joining me today is Andrew Lawrence, the deputy director of Rapid Response at Media Matters for America. Basically that means he watches Fox News all day. Andrew, thanks for being here to talk about the laptop from Hell.
Yeah, of course, thank you for having me. I'm excited to finger this conspiracy with you.
Oh it's sounds sexy when you say thank you.
Hunter Biden is sexy. It's a sexy top.
He is. He is a sexy man. He's all over. If you're into pin up dudes and Fox News, he's your guy. I want to jump into it because House Republicans are about to become the majority, and they've announced that they're going to investigate Hunter Biden. So let's start with just establishing who Hunter Biden is, because some of the things Hunter Biden has done are probably not very becoming of a son of a public official, like using
the Biden family name to make foreign business deals. That a good place to start.
Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's fair to say that Hunter Biden is, you know, he's essentially a fail son.
I think.
He's He's had a lot of tough things happened to him in his life. You know, I think that it's it's fairly well known Joe Biden's history of tragedy with I believe it was his wife dying in a in a car accident. I know Hunter was involved in that and and and you know that's something that's gonna affect you. And then his brother Bo Biden as well, passing from from cancer and not all that long ago, and that's sort of when, according to what I've seen, his tailspin
really began. But you know, I think, like you're right, like it is fair to say that that there is there's some questionable things there that Republicans and right wing media are trying to to glom onto this as some sort of giant scandal that's going to bring down Joe Biden and the Democratic Party is is a little bit ridiculous. And I mean, there's so much to get into the weeds here. You know, you got into it a little bit with that that nobody's really even seen this laptop yet.
And here we are with months in mindset. What's it been like two years now since this first came up.
I mean, I think it is fascinating. Part of the reasons we wanted to cover it one, I'm running into people on the road and it's always a go to hunter Biden And more often than not, the stuff that I run into with people on the road, what is the dodge? What is the quickest thing you can grab a hold on to. It's easy to say Hunter biden laptop.
It's harder to say what Hunter Biden's laptop contains. But I think it is fascinating because I also think on the left, the left is trying as hard as they can not to address what is potentially on this laptop and some of the allegations, which are some dire allegations. Now I need a download on what I need to know about this, where the reality is, where we should be suspicions and what is the bullshit people are slinging at the board to try to distract you from something else.
So you're helping me out here With Hunter Biden, I do think it's important to point out it is true he's gone through a lot of tragedy in his life. If we've seen images, He's dealt with drug addiction publicly about that in a book. A lot of these things are things that he verifies and talks openly about. He himself is an attorney and he's been a foreign lobbyist. Is that correct? Yes, And that's where some of this this drama starts to.
To And he's currently under investigation in Delaware as well. For I believe it's tax fraud. Not one hundred percent sure on that, but it's something like that.
And I think that's that's an important thing too. When they talk about hunter Byde being under investigation, it's one of the little tax fraud God bless investigate that tax fraud. Not for me though, and all of my tax fraud comes from imbecility. I really don't know the difference between W nine W four, So so don't come at me. That's just that's my naivete. But so hunter Byden is under investigation, but not exactly for the stuff that Republicans
are arguing. So we got nepotism, we got corruption, we got hardware repair, we got Ukrainian gas companies. What does that say about the nature of this conspiracy theory?
Well, I think you know, we can take this.
The Hunter Biden laptop is like the latest thing, right, and so you had in this every election. It seems the Republican Party and conservative media are looking for something to grab hold of. And you said it yourself earlier that that people are fired up about this, but they don't really know why. Right, they know, Hunter Biden's laptop is something that they should be they should be upset about and that that there's something the farious there. But you can take a look back at, you.
Know, the.
Her emails, the same thing. You know, nobody really knew what was what was wrong with that, but they knew that there was something wrong with it. It proves her untrustworthiness, the same thing with you can go back to.
It's also it also proves how little people know about technology. The fact that you could say emails and laptop. It's as if America is just a bunch of seventy four year old grandparents who lost remote and are like, I don't know, it's greatious devils right that who controls the magnets. It's the magnets who could ever figure these things out. But you just.
Described the Republican base right there, right for the most part. I mean that's and so they hear Hunter Biden, they hear laptop and it just sounds it just sounds nefarious.
And then I and then you throw into this was uncovered by a laptop repairman who contacted the FBI and talked to the FBI, and you know it, all the Deep States involved in this now and it's all of these little buzzwords that they've they've spent years, you know, making these into buzzwords, making these into things that Republican voters just have a reaction to, a visceral reaction just hearing these words, you know, at this point, and I know we're going to get into the investigations and stuff
like that. But if you remember back with Bengazi, I believe it was Kevin McCarthy, he was bragging about how there would not have been her emails without the Bengazi investigations.
Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right, but we put together a Benghazi Special Committee, a select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping? Why because she's untrustable. But no one would have known any that had happened, had we a great.
And that's really the point of this.
They want to investigate this laptop just so they can find something to go after Joe Biden and by extension, the Democratic Party.
With fun exciting Let's figure out what they're gonna what they're gonna find. So, so let's break this down. Twenty nineteen. There's three water damage laptops that allegedly Hunter Biden brings to a Delaware computer repair shop yep. And the shop owner, who's a Trump supporter sees the receipt. It's from Hunter Biden allegedly. He starts going through some of these files, notices some pictures.
He's also legally blind too.
The shopkeeper is a bright and he can't he can't confirm that it was actually Hunter that dropped it off, you know, but there is a receipt with what looks to be Hunter's Hunter's signature, so you know, give them the benefit of the doubt.
So okay, yes, there's a receipt, and supposedly Hunter doesn't pay for the repair, and therefore this is where things get legal. Now there's a moral question here too. But the laptop, multiple laptops are left there for past ninety days, so they become the owner of the repair shop. It's now his laptop.
Yes, it's his property by law.
So he starts going through this stuff and he starts fighting pictures, he starts fighting emails. Like what happens next after he sort of connects the dots of whose laptop this supposedly is and what he might have on it.
Okay, so this guy's name is John mac Isaac, and like you said, he's a conservative Trump supporter. This is all like you said, you know, twenty nineteen. It's important to sort of set the timeframe as well. This is a month I think maybe three weeks before the election something like that.
So he's deep.
Into this world of right wing politics, conservative media. He's very worried about the deep state, but decide he talks to his dad about it, who I believe was formerly in the army.
I believe I might be wrong.
About that, but his dad recommends that he contacts the local FBI field office.
So he does that.
The FBI comes by and apparently they seize the laptop and that's it. That's the last time that the laptop was ever actually seen. Mister Isaac made copies of the laptop and put it onto a hard drive and then at that point, you know, it's just him handing it off trying to contact Giuliani. Uh, I know, Steve Bannon ended up with with a copy of it, and and then you end up with Bannon contacting the New York Post. And that's sort of how this became a thing.
What does he think he has to begin with, He's got a laptop, it's Hunter Biden. But what what what? What does he thinks on the laptop that's worthy of getting it to to Steve Bannon.
Now, according to him, he pretty much ignored the salacious pictures, the salacious details, things like that.
He they say, they say that this thing's got a ton of that, right that, years and years of of of pictures of Hunter with uh uh in sexually compromising positions, doing using drugs, using drugs, things of that nature like that that's on there. So he claims he's not interested in that.
He's not interested in that, He says, what he's interested in more is the emails, particularly about foreign policy type stuff. Hunters dealings with agents of say China, and there was Beismo was the one thing that he was really focused on, according to Isaac. According to the Repairman and Barismo was
was an energy company where Hunter received. I mean it's basically a no show job, a million dollars a year, you know, a no show job, which again, which is you know, look that sucks and and I mean not for not for him, you know, for him it's great, but that's like I mean, welcome to America, right, Like I mean yeah, like like the sons of politicians get million dollar a year no show jobs, and so it's not really that big of a scandal, but that's what
they're trying to turn it into, you know, And I'm not too much into.
Like what about what about?
But I mean we're talking about a few months after Evanka gets those those trademarks in China for whatever, it was, twenty million dollars, you.
Know, things like that.
So at that point, it's it becomes barisma. And honestly, before this interview, before I started researching this stuff, again, I totally forgot about barisma.
But this was like a huge thing.
Barisma was that was the big talking point that they were trying to get stick before stick before that. I think it is. It's a good point. It shows just how broken this system is, and I think it is true. I think folks on the left need to look at this and there's some shady stuff that happens, but it didn't look like there was a connection between Joe Biden having influence and the money that was paid to his son. Correct, Is that's sort of where it stood.
Yes, yeah, and it doesn't show that. But so now what they're doing is they need a thing, right, Conservatives just need a thing that they can repeat and what they can say, and you know, I don't know if you remember, I think there was only one presidential debate, but in that debate, Donald Trump kept yelling asking by it and who.
Was the big guy? Who is the big guy?
And that's because there was there was an email where Hunter said I'm gonna set up a meeting with the big guy. And conservatives are just like, all right, that proves that's Joe Biden. Joe Biden is meeting with his business partners, Joe Biden is taking money. You know, they say, that's what all of this proves, and like it doesn't, you know, I mean, all it proves is that Hunter Biden like was connected and got a bunch of money,
and like there's there's there's a scandal there. But it's not like we're impeaching Joe Biden over this stuff, you know.
And yet yeah, we're probably going to be impeaching Joe Biden over all of this stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah. So at that point is that the smoking gun when people are talking about what is there are they putting to this this email that says and maybe am I correct that there's maybe a couple emails that reference one the big guy, a meeting with the big guy that perhaps Hunter could have was that with be cause there's there's Bearisma uh which is Ukraine U craated in gas company. Yes, right, but then we also had there's a Chinese there's Chinese money in there.
There's Chinese there was there was a Chinese company as well. Yeah, that was in there as well.
The Chinese company they're paying money to to Hunter and also Joe's brother Is that correct?
And yeah, I mean the whole family's kind of mixed up with them.
This is shitty. This is it is what are we doing where we're are good, we're a good, clean politician. So so Joe's brothers may be getting money from China. Hunters may be getting money from China. I think the timeline is important here too, because they're maybe getting money after Joe's out of power.
When he when he wasn't in office, right, So.
So technically even if Joe's getting money at that point, not illegal, but not ideal.
No, not illegal and certainly not ideal. I mean I think that's that's definitely fair. But you know, I mean we're talking about this. It's like all right, if you want to make make that type of stuff illegal, like make it illegal, but it's just it's it's.
Not right now.
And so that's that's the world we live in, you know, and it sucks like it sucks, but that's that's where we're at right now.
Talk to me how the how Fox and sort of the Mica the media echo chambers started to elevate this story.
Yeah, so you know, there was when this four story first broke, This had been shopped around a lot by believe. I'm pretty sure it was Juliani, I guess at that point shopping this around.
Wall Street Journal turned it down. So they turned it. They went with the New York Post, who ended up running this story.
And so why are they turning it down.
Because you can't even I mean, at that point, you can't verify that it's even actually the laptop, right, And again, like we got to remember, like what we're coming off from in twenty sixteen, with just the flood of misinformation and nonsense. And you know, I've worked on some pretty big political campaigns and in the last few weeks of the election, the press isn't going to just take something like out of the blue that hasn't been vetted or verified, or at least most of the press isn't.
You know, Well, the press at this point was spooked because of what happened with Hillary and Trump just weeks before.
Correct exactly, yeah, yeah, and this type of thing, there's just no way to vet it. I mean, you need time to verify that this is true, that there's actually a scandal here. And you know, we're three weeks, three weeks and so I'm pretty sure that's why Wall Street Journal didn't dinner.
So the major media outlets are not running with this. They're scared to run with it. But now here we are a couple of years later, looking back at this, even this week, CBS News has verified parts of information that's on the hard drive. They still don't have a laptop. Correct, right, Yes, it seems as if there is some verification of what was potentially there, and there's already criticism of At the time, Facebook was limiting the amounts of stories that were showing up around Hunter Binden.
Nobody could share it, I think. I don't know anybody could share it.
You couldn't sare right, I think, And that was Zuckerberg at at that point had been told by the FBI careful because Russian misinformation is all over the campaign, or there's a potential for it, so be on the lookout for it. Like in hindsight, was there more there there than the media gave credit to?
All right, maybe there was more there there, but what like just looking back at twenty sixteen, the firestorm that would have come out, there was no controversy known at that time other than like just Hunter Biden has a laptop, right, and the way that conservative media and right wing media works in Unison, it would have drowned out everything out, you know. But it's about that that Steve Bannon flood zone was shit strategy. You know, you just keep throwing
stuff out there. And I mean you got to give conservative media credit for the way that they all reply in Unison and.
They can make a thing out of nothing.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the flood the zone was shit Bannon strategy. This feels like this was this had so much shit you could put into that zone.
Yeah yeah, And that's you know, that's something that he actually admitted. He said, Hunter Biden's laptop, you put your own obsessions into it, you know. So for for Bannon, it was China, you know, he went he went after the China thing. For other people it was the drugs and and the women. You know and for other and you just put whatever it is that you that is your obsession. You you channel that into like, oh that Hunter Hunter Biden's laptop proves that that's real.
I love it. It's it's a maga rorshak test.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Stare into it. See see your peccadillos staring right back at you. I think that was fascinating when Bannon has talked about it, uh, correctly if I'm wrong, he had some moral issues with the idea of putting out some of these pictures of Hunter. I mean, this is some man's privacy. It's it's his personal pictures. For all the pictures of him with illicit drug use. There's pictures of like his brother's gravesite.
There's all these.
Personal emotional moments that this person put on their laptop. And then now somebody else has They have their search histories, they have all these types of things. And and I believe ban encountered that with uh but at war, Yes, so you do it. And I think that's what's so fascinating where we're so fucked right now because there are legitimate things to be curious about with this information, and we should be critical of people who have close connections
to powerful people. But when it's approached by operatives who treat this not as an investigation towards justice but as war, the what you have is people acting with warlike tendencies who will stop at nothing to only win that benefits their side, and that doesn't benefit justice. It benefits the person who is fighting in that general at that point, that's somebody like Steve Bannon, who's trying to rip people off for building a new wall on the Mexico border at the.
Same time, right well, and you have to understand, like they're not just demanding that the press cover Hunter Biden's laptop. They're demanding that they cover it right now the way that I want you to, you know, And like these outlets, they do have a responsibility to vet this stuff and make sure that it's true before putting it out there, especially you know, and I don't want to repeat myself, but especially when this is some thing that would be used in an attempt to sway the election.
Fast forward a couple of months from now investigations into the laptop?
Is that a good idea for Republicans? I mean, yeah, I mean why wouldn't you? That's just like targeting this one guy who is just taking advantage of the system that like we have created.
Right, but that guy, but that guy is the president's son. Yes, there are connections there.
And we should know there's no we should know there's no corruption, right, we absolutely should. At the same time, this is the system that we've got. And like, if you don't want nepotism babies or or or the children of wealthy and powerful politicians to get wealthy and powerful jobs, then like we need to change the way that we do things overall. And it's it's not just him, I mean, and it's not just you know, it's not just the
Trump kids either. I mean, look at the way look at the you know, the way that people the Democrats buy stocks, you know, and and then pass legislation like this is it's everywhere and and so that's why, like I feel just going after this one guy is it's so disingenuous, you know.
But yes, we should know if there's corruption, Yeah, we should know. And if he did anything illegal, we should be in jail. Of course.
If if America is going to look into the Rorshak test that is hunter Biden's laptop, what do you think America begins to see and begins to pull.
Out it's gonna be it is. I mean, what we're gonna see.
There might be something there, But what I think is that we're just going to see bullshit from Republicans. They're going to look for meetings that Hunter tried to set up with his dad, you know. And then and then do those companies, well do they do they have do they have connections to Zelenski or do they have connections to Fauci or you know, I mean you had the
guy who found the laptop, Isaac. He thinks that it shows it might show proof that Hunter Biden is responsible for the COVID pandemic, that he was involved in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and that that he was he was responsible for creating COVID and unleashing it.
Like, well, this is fun. Now we're talking, Yeah, can we tie him to COVID? It's gonna become a fun parlor game pretty soon. We're gonna be playing this at Christmas where it's like, can you connect Hunter Biden to COVID? Okay, can you connect it to the nets having a subpar season this year?
I'm sure there will be caravan there will be immigration connections. You know that it's ten degrees of separation. All they need is to find something that maybe connects to George Soros, you know, and then all of a sudden, like, oh, Hunter Biden is involved.
In the Great Replacement theory. You know. It's things like that.
So like, I don't really know where it's going to go, but I can tell you it's gonna be a lot of bullshit, you know.
I like what it's done to the Trump family, specifically the kids. I mean, it's amazing to watch Don Junior criticize Hunter Biden for saying, like how he wishes his was Hunter Biden so he could make money off his father's name, Which is it is a beautiful thing for somebody like Don Junior to yearn for, as if that wasn't already the game plan from day one.
Make a ton of money and do absolutely nothing except that, hey, you can meet my dad.
That's a disgusting trait right to just use your father's name to make money off of that.
Absolutely nepotism needs to be looked into big time.
Yes, what do you think about Avanka?
Oh she's so gracious.
Yeah, yeah, totally amazing.
I mean it's just the hypocrisy is amazing, but like that's never bothered them before, you know, And we're seeing reports of the foreign government spending one hundred and fifty thousand dollars at Trump Hotel, you know, and things like that, and it's like, that's why I have an issue with just like going after this one person, this Hunter, you know, just targeting him because he's the president's son essentially, and like, I mean that's that it shouldn't happen, but like we
need to be consistent here as well.
I guess did the media responsibly cover this as as we move forward?
Essentially?
What this is and what they need is you said, you know, when you go to a Trump rally, people are upset about Hunter Biden's laptop and they're not sure why.
That's all they need.
They need people to be upset about this, you know. And that's that's really all it's about. And and the investigations you asked what they're going to uncover? I mean, Lord only knows where this is going to go. But where it's really going to go is just keeping that drum beat, going to keep that buzz those buds, buzzwords Hunter Biden's laptop. Uh to get that reaction from from the base. You know that you're seeing it at rallies right now.
If Fox New has been pushing this story for a couple of years now and recently did a mock trial of Hunter Biden, what what the hell was that all about?
At what point did you decide, sir, to contact the federal year of an investigation about this matter?
When the laptop became my property in late July, I proceeded to uh kind of research what was on it to make sure that what I had seen was what I perceived his criminal activity.
God, I forgot about that. Oh my god, it was so funny. It was so funny. Yeah, and they had like a whole jury and everything, and Judge Joe Brown was the judge.
Well, tell me before we let you go, walk me through a little bit as somebody who watches this for folks who aren't watching Hannity, cover this and amplify this story. How has Hannity taken to this in the last few years?
It is I mean, it's just the NonStop drum beat, you know. And I think what you have to understand about Sean Hannity is his show is just like a stream of.
Right wing consciousness. It is just these buzzwords.
It's Nelly, or it's the FBI love birds, it's I mean, he still talks about Hillary Clinton's emails, you know, and so he is. He really is, more so than anybody else on that network. I think he is the king of these these bullshit conservative buzzwords, you know.
And one of the buzzwords he's one of the ones he's creating for the Hudder Biden story.
Well, it was Beisma, you know, a couple a couple of years ago, was Barisma.
Now he just calls him zero Experience.
Hunter, Barisma oil and Gas company. And zero Experience Hunter is fifty year old son Barisma. Zero Experience Hunter got millions.
And that's not all.
The report even found evidence linking Zero Experience Hunter to allege human trafficking quid pro quote Joe zero Experience Hunter, Barisma.
Now, if you're not, if you're not in that bubble, in that conservative bubble, what that refers to is he got the Barisma deal, you know, a million dollar a year, no show, all the other boards that he set on, you know, but zero Experience Hunter. That's Sean Handedy's thing. You know, he just keeps saying it over and over again, and then he uses this as as an example of the FBIB and out of control, the DOJ targeting conservatives and not going after Democrats. How there's no such thing
as equal justice under the law in America. I mean, I could, I could do an entire sean Handy monologue right now, like just based off of Hunter's laptop, because it's the same it's the same thing every single night. But what Hannity understands is that it's that repetition. It's that repetition that leads to the people outside the Trump rallies being upset about Hunter Biden's laptop. You know, you say this stuff over and over and over and over again,
it just becomes accepted as truth. Same thing that you know, crime and inflation are going to be the top.
Issues in the election.
You know, it's just they keep saying that stuff and it becomes the reality. And yeah, yeah, zero experience. Hunter would would definitely be Hannity's favorite buzzword though on this,
and you know, I deal with this as well. It's it's that balance between like this is hilarious, this is so funny, versus like this is dangerous and like actually scary that so many people believe it, and it's you know, it's about the conservative movement taking advantage of those people, I think more than anything else.
How much is that an element in the Hunter Biden story, because again, what does get glossed over is this is a man's private cachet of his his communications, his search histories, and his relationship with his family and his his his loved ones. It is something to just dump out everything that was on your phone, run your laptop for the world to see. It feels like we don't even grapple with the idea of whether or not we should. We just jump right to whether or not we.
Could right, Yeah, exactly.
And it's you know, as far as I know that, like you said, this laptop, if it is his laptop, it seems to be acquired legally, you know, but it's it's horrifying and we saw this. We've seen them do this quite a bit. Actually, if you remember Peter Strock and uh was at Lisa Page. I think they're like they're they're sexty and like became public and was was thrown up on Fox News every single night. You know,
they will do this if they have an opportunity. I think there was also and I don't know if you were aware of this, but Biden's daughter's diary was stolen and that never came out because there's serious legal implications.
Into that right now.
But Tucker Carlson has seen it and he's sits there and he regurgitates parts of it and stuff like that. I mean, this is I think she was pretty young, maybe late teens, early teens when when she was writing this. And you know, if you watch Tucker, he'll throw in every single once in a while, he'll throw in that Hunter used to Joe used to shower with his daughter because apparently there's a passage in there about that when she was younger.
Which you know, but it's, yeah, it's that type of stuff.
It's that they don't care, they don't have morals, and that's why it's so silly for you know, when when Steve Bannon said, like, yeah, it kind of kind of feels gross, but like we're at war, Like no, that's just your justification for doing it. Like I don't think it feels gross to Bannon. You know, he's a gross, disgusting guy made of you know, spores and loose skin.
I don't know. I you know, the Bannon's and the Tuckers and the Hannities. You know, they really speak towards family values and bringing back the morality to America and civility. And how are you going to smash the pedophiles if you don't go through the diary of a teenager.
Thank God that they're all very normal people.
Well, Andrew, thank you for talking to us.
Yeah, of course, Jordan.
This is so much fun, man, I really appreciate it.
After the break, I'll be joined by Congressman Jerry Connolly. We'll be talking about his role on the House Oversight Committee and how he plans to approach the investigation on Hunter Biden's laptop. Welcome back to Jordan Klepper Fingers the conspiracy. We're talking about Hunter Biden's laptop because Republicans won the House and apparently that's the issue that they think Americans care about the most.
To be clear, Joe Biden is the big guy. This evidence raises troubling questions about whether President Biden is a national security risk and about whether he is compromised by foreign government.
That was James Comer, the incoming chairman of the House Oversight Committee, announcing the upcoming investigation into Hunter Biden and the laptop. For those of you who think government committee hearings are dry and sterile, I have one word for you, BEng Ghazi. You can bet all your crypto that House Republicans will use the Hunter Biden hearings to make it
seem like an explosive scandal worthy of impeachment. So we're going to talk to a Democrat who sits on that committee right now to see what that's going to be like. How fun, Congressman Jerry Connelly and Virginia thanks for joining the podcast.
My pleasure, Jordan.
So, Congressman, it's a guarantee that these hearings are going to get coverage in the mainstream media, which means there's going to be a lot of baseless allegations coming from Republicans that will be aired on news channels, and there's only so much fact checking that journalists can do. Do you see your role on this committee as part fact checker?
Oh?
Yeah, we've been through this before, and I think it's
really important joy to put it in context. Right, So, when the Republicans were in the majority last time and we had a Democrat in the White House, President Obama for six years they breathlessly presented, and the media unfortunately was complicit in giving them exactly what they wanted headlines, endless, breathless stories, Hillary Clinton's emails, you mentioned ben Ghazi, Lois Learner, and the I R S Fast and furious Obamacare, you know, uh,
funding the solar solar energy and the great scandal of the waste of all of that. Not one of those so called investigations led to anything anything, not an indictment, not a trial. I mean, it was all uh, you know, sound and fury, all done for one purpose, to undermine two political figures, President Obama and Hillary Clinton. And unfortunately, the mainstream media, as you point out, doesn't spend much
time doing fact checking itself. And you know they'll ask people like me, well, you know, well, Congressman, you know they they assert, they allege, and I'm thinking, well, even framing a question that way gives it credence when there may be none. The supposition behind that question is completely false, based on either fabrication, distortion, insinuation, or no facts whatsoever. And that doesn't seem to matter, and so it kind of puts us at a disadvantage when we even get
asked those questions. It's not unfair to ask them, but sure would be nice that the media took a little responsibility now and then instead of absolving itself and allowing the insinuation that there's something to this.
So, I mean, you know what's coming. What is your strategy? Are you going to attempt to discredit the very nature of this investigation itself? Do you call attention to the Fox News fever dream that this whole thing is or do you admit that there are some elements of Hunter Biden activity that is of itself worth investigating.
I'm certainly not in advance going to conceive anything their asserting is worth investigating, and I am going to spend a lot of time talking about what should be investigated that they don't want to talk about. For example, in the same press conference where you cited, you know, James Comer said, well, why don't we just start, you know, stick with Hunter Biden. That's what I want, That's really what I want to focus on.
If we can keep it about Hunter Biden.
This is kind of a big deal. We think if we can keep it about Hunter Biden, that would be great.
He admitted he didn't want to focus on the fact that illegally President Trump has kept classified documents in moral lago against the law and lied about it and is being investigated, as we speak, for criminal behavior with respect to that. Well, uh, I thought you wanted genuine oversight,
that that's a genuine overside issue. Now, of course, the world is replete with similar genuine overside issues when it comes to Trump and his acolytes and his administration, not one of which, not one of which Republicans want to look at. They never supported a single subpoena when they were in the majority and Trump was in the White House for anything having to do with oversight of the Trump administration, not one.
Well, we may need to elect an entire house of representatives to deal with the issues and investigate all of those Trump era issues. But I guess I'm curious, Like it's always easy for us for both sides to point out what the other side should be looking into, and I think this is it's pretty clear in a situation like this. However, there are details within this Hunter Biden's
story that do rub people the wrong way. People on both sides of the aisle are skeptical of somebody who is this close to the president of the United States being close to foreign governments at a time where the details are sketchy, although we know it's going to be weaponized, and you know the show that is going to be put on. What do you say to those people who are like, I'm still I'm still nervous about this situation
and do think we should investigate that? Do you say, yes, we should, but this is not the place whether they will get a fair investigation or do you just discredit that idea on its surface?
Well, anyone who thinks that this would be a fair investigation, you know, balance, fair, let the truth come out, is smoking something because that is not the motives operunde. It is very clear. The Republicans have already been saying this
for several years. Right, don't forget it was Donald Trump who committed a criminal act, we felt, and he was impeached for it with respect to hunter byd because he was extorting a foreign leader with our military assistance, which now we know was badly needed in the Ukraine in order to get political dirt on hunter Byden. So the whole so called investigation is tainted going back to that
what Trump called perfect phone call. And so I'm not going to provide any legitimacy to that line of inquiry unless something is presented to me that would qualify for yeah, all right, that's traveling. We had to look at it. So I'm not going to concede that at all in advance. And I am going to point out that, you know what little fact checking has been done in the press about this, and I cite Glenn Kessler of the Washington
Post is sort of their official fact checker. You know, they're looking at one email out of something like one hundred and twenty two thousand that is subject to interpretation. They're looking at some great scandal about keys to an office in Spain that kind of vided in fact never
picked up, but that somehow that's a big conspiracy. I would say, there's really thin rule so far, and the idea that we're going to put the entire weight of the Oversight Committee of the United States Congress behind such anemic evidence and then Gruel worries me greatly. But as part of the pattern of my friends on the other side of the aisle, going back to Dan Burton and Clinton.
I mean, maybe this shows that it is a dying fire and these are the embers if we've gone from but her emails too, but his email singular, maybe that's showing progress in some way. You bring up something interesting. You've been on this committee for years. Some of these Republicans Jim Jordan, Andy Biggs, Andrew Clyde, they love a good conspiracy. They've denied the twenty twenty election was real.
Spread January sixth conspiracy theories. How can you use your platform on the committee to help a viewer who maybe doesn't know their context. How do you let them understand the full context of where they're coming from?
The good news our processes when we have a markup for the legislation or when we have a hearing, we democrats get equal time. And you know that's why the leadership of our committee is going to really matter. Can we cohere and forge our voice as one to push back, get the facts out, tell the truth, and puncture their false narratives in an effective way. That is critical when you're in the minority and you're defending a democratic white House, and if you don't do that, you know they control
the narrative. So fighting for control of the narrative and making sure that you repeat, rent and repeat when it comes to facts, do not assume that, having said it once, it's in everybody's head. That's not how human beings work. And in our media market today, given the multiplicity of sources of news, accurate and falls and everything in between, you've got to really spend time making sure that the truth penetrates consciousness and public opinion.
What does that look like? What are some of the tactics there? I think I think about the January sixth hearings, which many people would say are have been effectively communicated. Perhaps the lesson there is just don't invite the other side of the table. It's really easier to get your
point across. Perhaps it's the use of video. Perhaps it's just the repetition of baseline facts like are there are there elements that you could draw from, uh from from from those hearings that you'd like to bring to the forefront here? I think we talk about Bengazi, we talk about those things, you know, you know the machine that is going to be behind this narrative. So how do you get out ahead of it? How do you change what democrats did six years ago to be more effective in the upcoming year.
I don't think there's any one tactic. But there are a lot of tools in the kit bag, and one of them is humor. I can remember once they were you guys.
The Democrats are going to rely on humor. Oh, oh my god, what do we do with congressman. I'll give you an example six of your sweet spot.
I'm sorry, I'm irish, and how to use humor. I'll give you any example. We we had a career civil sufvent from IRS, and the Republicans hauled her before our committee. They were in the majority, and her job was to enforce the provision and the Affordable Care Act that you would be fine if you didn't have health insurance, by the way, a provision that was a Republican idea that was enshrined in Romney Care in Massachusetts that we took on.
But I rate they just excoriated her, and you know, I was getting agitated waiting my turn, and I thought, you know, there is another bit of which I'm going to say that. And then I thought, you know, that's not the effective way of making the point. And they're looking for a headline tomorrow that's going to say Republicans accuse IRS official of you know, subverting the America and freedom or something. And so when it came time and I turned, I said to her, so you're under oath.
She went yes. I said, I want to remind you you're under oath. She went okay. I said, have you been consorting with the devil?
Not?
To my knowledge, sir, our reports that you can fly.
Accurate, greatly exaggerated.
Sir.
Have you been involved in any way and trying to pervert our youth in Salem or anywhere else?
I certainly hope not, sir. You sure, yes, sir.
The looks on their faces like what is Oh my god, god, because people were now lapping well. The next day, the headline instead of the one the Republicans wanted was Iris official denies consorting with devil. People were howling with laughter. It completely punctured their narrative. Sometimes humor can be a tool too, But a lot of this is too serious.
I mean, honestly, what's so interesting? Because I hear you on that, and I do think it's almost and an example like that, we've been talking a little bit about the Steve Bannon flood, the flood the narrative with bullshit, get it out there, like, how much of it is that?
Are we are we using humor in that sense to be like, we know what people are going to click on, we know what people are going to talk about, and if we can be outlandish in our approach from a satirical point of view, that can trump somebody else being outlandish from perhaps a more politically advantageous point of view.
Absolutely. There was another time they had an FBI official who had privately expressed support for them, I'm sorry, had privately expressed criticism of Donald Trump. This is early in
Trump's tenure, and they were just again excoriating him. So when it came time to my turn, I started re criticisms of Trump without identifying who said it, and I said, so, that was you, right, And before the witness could answer, I went, oh, no, I'm sorry, that was Marco Rubio, Republican senator, and then I just went, you know, And of course by the time I was finished, people again were,
you know, snithely chuckling. But it completely exposed the hypocrisy of the Republicans for attacking this guy for criticizing Trump when at the same time they were doing it too.
Congressman I got, I got to say, using hypocrisy as a stand in for humor, that's my lane, So back off. You're gonna use Rubio's words against him and the whole GOP. What else do we have out there?
It's dangerous business. But you know it goes to the old line A friend of mine, humorous Jim Bourne once used to say, if you're going to be a phony, at least be.
Sincere about it. It feels like a lot of the Republican strategy is to work the refs, bully the mainstream media into covering it as a legitimate, massive scandal. Do you think that's working.
I think it works all too well, all too often, and that's why we have to be much better at our game. And that's why we have to be disciplined and coordinated. I mean, you can't this can't be one off. This can't be one Roague member who maybe is effective, but everybody else is doing their thing. And that's why you know, in the Minority especially, our committee is going to have to be organized, strategic, and as I said, discipline both the messaging and in the attack of their narrative.
You know what's the best way to do that to get the truth to the American people and through the media.
Have you thought about starting an improv group if you're going to utilize both humor and teamwork with a coherent message, perhaps some sort of yes and exercise some trust falls. I know a lot of out of work people in Chicago right now who could come, get on a plane and teach you guys some basics of improv to save democracy.
I have enjoyed improv in Chicago myself for many years, and it can be very useful. But it's not a substitute though, for discipline, narrative discipline, lines of questioning and taking the fight to the other side when they are propounding fabricated narratives, when they are distorting facts, peddling conspiracy theories that are without foundation, and sometimes just flat out making it up. They don't have a compunction about that.
We do, which is sometimes to our disadvantage. Although I'd rather be where we are than they are, but that means we've got to be doubly more effective in puncturing what they're doing.
Well, Congress, when you sound like my parents, improv, although valid, is no substitute for real hard work and fact checking, I get it. I should be a doctor or an architect. I think we can both agree if the fate of our democracy lies on improv we might be in a bad place. I'm curious, do you think House Republicans are planning and using this investigation as a basis to impeach President Biden.
I mean, there's a crowd of them that's already decided that's what they want to do. I think they would have trouble right now selling that to enough people in their own caucus to have the votes. Frankly, there is a dwindling group of more common sensor Republicans and modern Republicans who are very uneasy about the hard ideological tilt of the Freedom Caucus and their accolytes and would like
to find a way to reassert themselves. And what they believe is what's going to be necessary if the Republicans are really ever gonna be successful again in American political
life in terms of a real serious, working majority. I think that there are some built in brakes on that, And what I predict is that the Republicans in our committee will do what they always do, which is overreach, right, and when they do that, they losed public support and they lose credibility, and in this particular case, they're likely to alienate some of those more moderate numbers of their caucus, albeit in dwindling numbers they need to get to eighteen.
Do you think that you really think they will alienate It feels like there's rarely any pushback or political repercussions for appearing hawkish and overstepping.
Yes, but you asked about impeachment.
Impeachment is a different matter, and you do think that is a line for most Americans. Do you think they will see that just as a craven partisan overreach.
Yeah, I don't think anybody in America. Well, let'll be with me. I simply don't think that's a majority opinion at all, not even close. That there's something unseemingly about Joe Biden that desperately needs to be investigated. And we just had a midterm election. They tried out that theme. It didn't work. You know, Americans did not vote to have hard line accountability for Joe Biden because he's getting away with stuff, and that's why we need a Republican majority.
They barely got a majority, they and they didn't get one in you a Senate. They lost governor seats neet, they lost legislative seats net, and they barely won the House, So I hardly think that's a mandate to go at it. And that says something about I'm not saying that Americans don't want accountability. They're not persuaded that Joe Biden has done anything that merits that kind of you know.
Which, hunt, Congrischmann, are you optimistic going into this next year that the American public will be able to sift through and see through the bs.
We live in a world with so much in front of us, right, you know, we don't live anymore where in a world where you know, I get my news in the evening broadcast for thirty minutes on one of three choices. Those days are long gone, right, So there's this fog of news and data being presented to me and opinion, and I'm somehow expected to separate the truth from the non truth or the half truth, and the
facts from the fiction. So that's why it's so important we do our jobs and do them well that we help the American listener, viewer, voter separate what's true from what is not true. And that's, as I said, why I think our committee is going to be on the front line of this this struggle. And it's a struggle as much for the truth as it is for political advantage or partisan gang.
Well.
Congressman Jerry Connelly, thank you so much for joining the podcast, and uh pleasure let me know if you need any punch ups on jokes. I work for cheap and I'd like to help this democracy.
I'll come back to you on the improv Thank you.
After the break, we're going to be joined by author and journalist Tiffany Cross. We're going to dive even more into media coverage behind Hunter Biden's laptop. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Jordan Klepper Fingers. The conspiracy we're talking about Hunter Biden's laptop basically the right wing fever dream that a MacBook Pro that was left at a computer repair shop in Delaware proves that the Biden family was doing corruption in Ukraine. And that was before it was
cool to know about stuff in Ukraine. And also China's involved. Obviously, if you watch Fox News or Newsmax or Max News or Real American Truth or any other right wing media that sounds like it was created by a Steve Bannon word generator, you're probably extremely familiar with the weird details of the Hunter Biden saga. But if you get your news from real places, you might only know some of it,
and that creates a minor dilemma. House Republicans are about to start investigating Hunter Biden, and that means it's probably going to get a lot of coverage on mainstream outlets. So if the role of the news media is to cover what's happening, but also to stop the spread of misinformation, what are journalists supposed to do here? To help us answer that question, we're going to talk to Tiffany Cross, an author, journalist, cable news veteran, and until recently she
was the host of The Cross Connection on MSNBC. Tiffany, thanks so much for talking to us here today.
Thanks for having me Jordan, It's great to be connected today.
Yes, So, this Hunter Biden laptop story poses an interesting problem for the news media. On one hand, it's an obsession fan by right wing trolls who most of the time can be ignored. But on the other hand, Republicans are taking over the House of Representatives and they're going to launch congressional investigations into it, hoping for media coverage
that makes the investigation look like a legitimate process. So I guess the big question is can you have a legitimate investigation into something run by the people who think January sixth was antifa?
Right, I would say no, and I wish that more people in the news media would be so direct.
And honest about that.
You know, when we talk about corruption in this whole incident with the Hunter Biden campaign or the Hunter Biden laptop brother in Ukraine, I think it's really important to remember what the Ukraine story is, and that is that Donald Trump was trying to hold up hundreds of millions of dollars in support for Ukraine because he wanted President Zelenski to invest gate his political rivals.
That is the story.
The counterpoint to that story was Republicans trying to institute this laptop storyline. And so when you have people who employ the logic of bad actors like Lauren Berbert or Marjorie Taylor Greene who will have committee assignments, you know, the Republicans have taken over the House. Now we don't know what leadership looks like. We don't know who the Speaker of the House will be. Kevin McCarthy is quite
embroiled in his own battles. I think it is very dangerous to pretend that these are intellectual people, that these are people acting in good faith, or that these are people who give a damn about democracy, because they don't. To your point, they said January sixth was in Tifa. We have seen quite blatantly these folks lie. They have said that, you know, they were like tourists walking through the Capitol, even though we saw Republican members of Congress
themselves helping to barricade Adore. And so it seems to be yet again a lesson that the news media has not learned, and they make such great overtures to this right wing extremist Republican Party, and they have not yet accepted what we as all Americans, have witnessed, and that is there are no right wing extremists and a separate
group of Republicans. These two factions have merged. And so if you're going to turn over political investigations to right wing extremists, then you're going to essentially wave the white flag on democracy and say goodbye. This feels like the series finale of the Great American Experiment, and as you can see, it ain't going so well.
Tune in everybody, I guess it brings an interesting question though. You're right they may not believe in the tenets of democracy, but is their point of view in and of itself news which should be covered because people look at this Hunter Biden laptop story and it is in many way you used as a distraction. But there is news to be made in there. There is perhaps an investigation that could have around this, whether or not it's a legitimate one,
who knows. But you bring up people like Lauren Bobert. A lot of times, the news doesn't have to report on all of the wilder things that perhaps somebody like a Bobert will say, But then you'll have people like Kevin McCarthy, who very well could be the Leader of the House, who will repeat those talking points. So what do you say to a journalist who says, if Kevin McCarthy is the Speaker of the House and he says something that means that it is news that must be reported.
I think it's fine to report that through the proper context. I think what we have seen is the news media goes out of its way to present something that is factual or something that is at least based in some level of intellect, and then they will take something asinine and present both of these things as though they are
equal in thought. So if I say, hey, Jordan, it's raining outside, and it's in fact raining outside, and you say, well, there are purple unicorns falling from the sky outside, the answer to that is not, well, some say it's raining outside, and some say they're a purple uni corns. Uh, you know, falling from a sky. We'll let you decide. We're fair and balance. That's bullshit, and we ought to be honest
about that. And I think, you know, I think why you have so much of that is because again, one of my big passions throughout my career has been newsroom diversity. And so when you have people in these newsrooms who make these overtures to Trump fanatics, you know, to these cult members who are believers of the Maga doctrine that you've so brilliantly highlighted in your comedic reporting for the Daily Show, You've done better reporting the most journalists out there.
And just let these people talk and say what they believe.
Make no mistake.
We have the guns and we are now in the streets.
Can I ask why you're carrying a pitchfork?
Well, pitchfork is a just iconic representation of how of what people over time have done in this country.
It feels rolling a weaven.
No it's not.
It's farm equipment, and it's legal in this in this in the city.
Are you farming today, it's a it's a reper We're not asking for violence right now.
I gotta tell you from the movies I've seen, the hordes of people with pitchforks are usually the bad guy.
And when you have people who say, well, you know, all these people aren't so bad because my grandmother is a Trump supporter and she's my nana and she's so sweet, or my dad supports Trump. I tried to talk him out of it, but he still believes that. But they're not bad people. Me on the other side, I'm saying, I'm sorry to tell you, but they actually are pieces of shit.
You know.
These are horrible people who are supporting a horrible man who says horrible, racist, xenophobic, misogynistic things. And if you can't call your family out on that, then that is a problem because now you're penetrating the atmosphere where it's supposed to be truthful information and not, you know, a sympathy fest for people who would see folks who look like me oppressed, and that has created such a chasm in media Jordan. It is to people have now tuned
out media. I mean you look at cable news and it's really a melting ice cube at this point. And when people do not t us that there is no reputable outlet where they can get this kind of information, they find their news and information from other sources, and those sources are not always reputable.
And we saw what happened with that in twenty sixteen.
A lot of people felt like their lived experience was reflected in an Internet meme. What we later learned that was the you know, Internet Russia agency, who also did not care about American democracy. And when they looked at this country and said how can we mess with American democracy, it took them all of two months to say, oh, white supremacy, that's it. That's how that's their greatest weakness and we will tap into that. And this is really an extension of that philosophy.
I can't wait for the Tiffany Cross how to do Thanksgiving with relatives of book call the pieces of shit out and.
Move on, please my Thanksgiving.
We don't have that problem, but a lot of people's tables. They do, and I think that is the you know, with allies and people who you know want to get in this fight. It's like, yes, start in your own home, challenge your own family, because it is not my job to convince the you know, willfully ignorant people to not believe in a man who's lying to them. And it is not my job to extend empathy or sympathy to people who.
Feel that way.
I don't know how to meet a biggot in the middle. So if that is how people feel it, start there, start there at your own table.
That brings up an interesting question because I do think that's a question I get on the road a bunch. Are you ever able to change somebody's mind or what have you? And that's not the intention of the pieces that we go out to do. I think more often than not, it's to confront people with logical fallacies that we see back home and see what the reality is in the field. But I do think it's interesting it's somebody a member of the media. There is this chasm here.
There's a chasm also a bad information that people are getting. And I do think you want to have empathy for those people who have been given such misinformation. How do you balance the deliverance of real news with the idea of showing a certain amount of empathy and outreache towards perhaps voices and people who who who are willing to meet in the middle.
Well, I would challenge the first part of empathy. I think, if you do have empathy, Jordan, for some of the folks you have spoken with, that's.
Not such a bad thing.
You know.
Perhaps I can understand that, as long as you're not.
Asking me to have empathy.
I do not have empathy for people who have bought into a lie or a myth, or a system that means my oppression. I don't have any empathy for such people at all. I actually think the country would be better off without those people having an influence on what this democracy looks like or how this government works. But
that is not the way American democracy was designed. I think when it comes to reporting these things and in the media landscape, you run the risk of having a large number of the population I would call the rising majority, tune you out when you're when your perspective, when the start point is we have empathy.
For these people who feel this way because you do.
Not hear people saying, well, look, the Nazis were fed a bunch of bad information, we have to have empathy for them. Get the fuck out of here, Like we would never say that, we would never believe that, you know.
And so why am I being asked to have empathy for the people who would see me staying in a dilapidated community, sending my children to dilapidated schools, living in run down neighborhoods and say, well, that's just how it goes because they can't win, because if they win, that means I'm losing.
I have no empathy.
Tivvy. I gotta say, if you don't think people are showing empathy towards Nazis, you're just not on Twitter anymore.
You're right, an Elon on Twitter it is the land of empathy for Nazis.
I would say it's a surprisingly popular opinion. That's really somehow coming back in Vogue, I guess I have a question who makes those decisions about what gets covered and what doesn't get covered at a network level. Is z anchors, is it producers, news executives. Is there a conversation that happens in the newsroom, Well.
It's variety of things, and I think it all depends on the newsroom. You know, broadcast has a different set of rules in print. When I was in cable news, I made the decisions about what I covered on my show, but I did not do so without a fight.
You know, there are assignment desk assignment.
Editors, and there are people who oversee and people who oversaw my show. And it was always a fight because you know, it's like the echo chambers, right, like the three news networks are covering mostly the same things. I mean, now, you know, Fox would be an outlier and you know, still cover Hillary's emails, but for the most part, people
were covering the same stories throughout the day. I was very intentional about disrupting that and talking about stories that impacted communities of color policy, you know, people who live below the poverty line. I wanted to have conversations that were being had in the corner office, as well as the barber shop, as well as the beauty salon, as well as on the block, you know, for the old men who sit outside in front of the you know,
convenience store all day. I wanted everyone to feel like they had a home, and I wanted to reflect the lived experience of everyone. But we talked a lot on this show about the tragedy of America's maternal mortality rates, especially the disparity that claims black and Indigenous women at three times the rate as white women. Imagine being without
clean water for six straight days. Well, that's the reality right now for the one hundred and fifty thousand residents of Mississippi's largest city, all right after centuries of genocide and oppression. Imagine seeing your ancestors stolen belongings sit in a museum and you're told you can't have them, you can't touch them or even photograph them. You take something
even as simple as the economy, right. You know a lot of people, you know in these morning news shows and they say, oh, look the economy is doing well. You know, the market is up, and it's like the market is not the economy. And if you go and talk to people in my pre gentrified neighborhood, they would not say the economy is doing well.
You take labor reports.
And they're like, oh, we add an x amount of new jobs and here's the unemployment numbers. Well that's the overall unemployment numbers. But when you disaggregate that data and look at unemployment for black people, for Latino people. We feel disrespected when you say, oh, the job supports numbers are great. And so the more that people kind of centralize white perspective and white voices, it leaves so many
people out. And so when you talk about newsroom diversity and who makes these decisions, don't come tell me that you just hired you know, you know fifty percent of people of color and women, and they're all entry level employees or mid level management. Put those people in the c suite. Put those people in decision making positions so they can disrupt the echo chambers in a meaningful way. Because what is it twenty five year old to do.
When a fifty five year old is in charge of the entire newsroom and they're making a decision that runs contrary to the lived experience or belief system or you know, experiences of the rising majority, they don't always have or feel the sense of agency to challenge that. And so when they don't have that, they either exit the business or they become a part of this machine that keeps doing the same thing over and over and it never gets disrupted or change forever.
Those battles that you have in the newsroom with your show on MSNBC, The Cross Connection, how much did you have to split your time being the host of that show, helping create the narrative of that show, the stories you wanted to cover, and also what sounds like a teacher of this experience, did you find yourself having just put on those two hats and were you surprised by that culture at MSNBC.
Yes, I put on those hats every day, and so what I found on my show is I would have to do something to please network executives, and then I would have to do the rest of my program to please the viewers.
And those things often went like this.
You know, if I was going to please the executives, fine, I will do two segments on Trump, because that's what everybody wanted, you know, the network effectors wanted to talk about Trump. However, if you know, you know one of the members of the group Migos was murdered, well that was something that a lot of people were talking about, especially on the hills of so many other hip hop artists being murdered, So that was going to be some
to please viewers. If there was a story about indigenous communities, you know, having to travel over two hours to vote. That was something that was going to please viewers. If we were going to do something on the Asian American Pacific Islander community being the fastest growing demographic in the country, but yet no political parties are reaching out to them, that was something that was.
Going to please viewers.
And so, you know, the way my bank account was set up, I had to at least do some things to please network executives. But it was always my mission, you know, And I would encourage you know, anybody who wants to pursue any career when you are mission driven, and I was mission driven, and my mission was for the equality and liberation of Black, Indigenous and people of color, the rising majority of the country. That was my mission, and so nothing was going to sway me from that mission.
And I knew if I ever fell out of favor with network executives, that would have to be okay, because my mission was to elevate the lived experiences and to hold the line for the people who were very much architects of this country and very much deserve to have their voices and perspectives heard, particularly after centuries of being so violently silenced.
Now, I mean your new your show was canceled days before the midterms. Four days before the midterms, an important voice in this conversation and made a lot of news. And there are a lot of questions how much how much did you find that your personal mission was out of touch with whatever MSNBC's mission was.
Well, I felt that pretty early on every week I had to defend and fight for segments that we did.
You know, did that feel did that feel contrary to what other hosts at MSNBC were having to do with their own shows.
Yeah, you know, I would say my colleague Joy reed, and I probably had the most pushback on our shows. But there were also things that other hosts would do that would make it easier for us, which again is problematic. My colleague Ari Melbourne, you know, a big hip hop fan. If you watch five minutes of his show, you know that he quotes rap lyrics all the time.
And it was fine when the white man did it.
You know, when the white man did it, it made it easier for everybody else to do it. But let the black woman start out doing that and it would have been a major problem, a major problem. But he was celebrated for doing that.
Tiffty, it was it was never fine when Ari Melbourne did that, it was never fine. That was never accepted amongst the audience members.
Well, he's to get rap artists on his show, and you know they they seem to you know, play into it. But either way, you know, you look at Morning Joe, my former colleagues Joe and Mika. I mean, we got the term moscow mitch from Joe Scarborough. But if you know, you know, if Joy or I you know, were to say something similar, it was like, hey, we don't really
want name calling. But even if you take it out of MSNBC and just look at the media landscape in general and some of the more colloquial conversations that happened when it comes to voters, they were so often in the media landscape that you would hear terms like soccer moms, Nascar dads. Well, those were all euphemisms for white voters.
And it's not that black.
People could not you know, have that same moniker as well. But we understood what that to meet, what that what those terms meant. It did not feel inclusive of the black experience, which is the biggest voting block. When it comes to Democratic to the Democratic Party. And so even when they did voters of the heartland. You know, you go to these diners in the middle of nowhere where apparently no black people have ever been or ever eaten,
and that was voters of the heartland. But why not go to a basketball game in southwest Atlanta after it let out and talk to the parents there? Are they not voters of the heartland in a purple state? I'd add, why can't we have like basketball did dads, or you know, the anti voting block or something that reflects my lived experience. Even when you have candidates on and you'd have, you know, these Democratic candidates, and the anchor would always press them.
How are you going to.
Appeal to these red state voters? How are you going to you know, get these Trump voters.
Who's thet Holmes? How are they going to come over to you?
I have yet to see somebody ask republican MAGA voter, how are you going to appeal you want to penetrate Democratic? How are you going to appeal the base vote? Are black voters? Your party seems to stand for a lot of things that runs contrary to what black voters want. How are you going to appeal to them, How are you going to appeal to the changing demographics? People of color are increasingly becoming the base vote. What are your
policies that speak to that demographic? Those things never happened. I was never able to get Republicans to come out on my show because they did not want to answer those types of questions. But access journalism would grant you an interview with Ted Cruz or Marjorie Taylor Green, or the guy, the Senate guy, the Senate candidate Ron Johnson, the Trump acolyte who's running for Senate in Wisconsin. He would happily go on those shows if he knew it was going to be an easy interview. And that does
not serve anybody but the a itself. It certainly does not serve viewers or voters.
And you bring up an interestry point. It is in twenty sixteen, after the media landscape was quote unquote surprised by the red wave, the trump Ism, there there was all you saw was anchors in these small, little diners. And now we have this midterm election where everybody's shocked by the blue whether whether you call it the blue pushback. Right there, we're not seeing anybody go to these other
democratic areas and try to figure them out. I guess I think you're you're hitting on something that I think there are a lot of perhaps progressives out there who look at a place, who look at the media landscape. Everybody's picking their own media outlets to try to tell them perhaps the story that they think one elucidates the world that they see, or the story that makes them
feel better about themselves. More often than not, there are those places in the mass media market that people look at have to go all that on INSNBC, But I do know that as a place for a lot of people who look at that as having a left leading perspective,
who will take in a lot of these considerations. And I think hearing some of your stories here is depressing to hear that even even these ideas of being inclusive in the stories that we tell is meeting such resistance at these levels, like where do you see these stories being able to be told? Clearly, we know where they need to be able to be told. Where are you seeing examples of them being told?
Well, I think social media has really democratized who has a voice in this space, which has come with great benefits to democracy, but also to some of our demise. Right, Like we talked a little bit about Twitter, which you know, you have superstars on Twitter who we really don't know
who they are, We just know their avatar. You know, you have people who discreate these YouTube shows who can just declare themselves journalists who might not have the journalistic acumen to really interview the podcast Drink Champs, you know, and they have Kanye on that podcast that wasn't a journalist, you know, that was somebody having a drink with Kanye, So there wasn't the space to challenge some of the
things that he said. And so, you know, I think the good thing about it is their space, and it has made everybody wake up and say, well, wait a second. You know a lot of people are getting their news from other places, like The Daily Show, quite honestly, and I have been a long, long time fan of The Daily Show, but I do think, well, that should not be your only news outlet. You know, you do have
to supplement that. Even my show, when people would say I don't watch any news except for your show, it would make me a little nervous because it's like, well, I'm a perspective host and you know, I'm giving you my perspective. It would be helpful if you had some of the baseline stuff. And you and I both know print drives broadcasts. Print journalism drives broadcast journalm. Everybody starts out reading the paper, read six seven, eight papers. But
even there there's a lack of newsroom diversity. So I don't know that I can say where news should be consumed. I would say the best answer I could give to that is stay tuned to where I land.
A final question here, do you think the media is glad Trump's running again?
I do? I do.
I think Trump gave the cable news network such a boom that they salivated, and that's why I think they were always constantly trying to get me to do Trump. I have talked about Trump, but I think they're going to be disappointed. I have seen, uh, some in the news media a day late and a dollar short, be a little more mindful about how they cover him. But I also think that the American body politic has lost their appetite for the reality TV show that was cable
news for a brief moment in time. People love to see, you know, this throwdown, this battle, this kind of gutter back and forth between opposing viewpoints, and you know, it was like the anchor would do all but say, let's get ready to rumble, and then you bring in this you know segment. You know, I think post pandemic and being overly sensationalized by this level of yellow journalism from print to broadcast has left people a bit apathetic towards consuming news at all.
Yeah.
No, well, Tiffany, I'm excited to see where you land. That is definitely going to be the place to check out. Thank you for coming on, and thank you everybody else for checking out this episode of Jordan Clupper figures the Conspiracy whether you're listening on your phone or watching on your laptop, especially if it's a laptop at a repair shop in Delaware. We'll see you next time, Thanks so many.
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