Esther Perel - A More Nuanced Look at Infidelity in "The State of Affairs"

power are interdependent, They are interconnected. There is power insex, and power can be sexy. But there's a difference between power two, which can be liberating and enhancing and affirming, and power over, which can be oppressive and hurtful. And the meaning what we are seeing today are abuse of power, you know, And that's a very different situation. When I write about infidelity, I write about a consensual story. When I look at assault and harassment, I'm looking at a

criminal story. Those are very different realities. What has changed is less the accused and more the power of the accuser. Whenever people, children, women have been violated, they've worried that they wouldn't be believed. And what it takes is people who have enough power to withstand the forces of denial. Wow, if you if you look at the conversations around sex and denial and the ideas that we all face. You know, some people would say sex is a subculture of what

we do as human beings. You have an interesting view, and that is you. You see, our cultures and our society is through the lens of sex. What does that mean? It means that every culture, it's most rooted traditional archaic values are surrounding sexuality, t and its beliefs and attitudes about sex, and the most progressive radical changes also take place around sex. Every civilization tries to control sexuality, license and abstinence. You need some sex or there won't be

a species. You can't have too much of it, or nobody shows up for work. But now, when when when you talk about the state of affairs in the book, especially infidelity, it's such a powerful topic, especially in America. You know, you just recently we saw a congressman where a tape came out of his infidelity and people asking

questions around what does it mean? And you know, obviously he had said different things in public, but it really is a powerful position where the story was then flipped and people like is it about the woman or is it about the man? You speak about? How in many ways infidelity and the issues we're learning about now displayed to us the power dynamic and the way women have been oppressed for so long. How how do we learn

that or how do we see that? So the first thing is infidity has never been a gender equal proposition. Men have practically had a license to cheat with all kinds of theories that justified why they have. It's in their nature to rome and women have faced dire consequences and still have nine countries where they can be killed. So this is about sex and power. Actually, Um, that's

one of the big differences. Is what is changing today actually is that women are rapidly changing the infidelity gender gap. How how how are they? How are they doing that? And is that a good thing? Well, what it tells you is that women have basically behaved by virtue of the dire consequences of what could happen to them ostracism, pregnancy, destitution,

and even death. And so once she has more economic independence, once she has no full divorce, once she can control her own reproduction, and she's no longer worried that the baby is going to come out nine months from now that whose color hair doesn't resemble hers, she may be more like you. You may learn more about her desire than you actually have learned about her throughout history, which has been her compliance. Now m hm. You hear stories of people saying like A good example is Mike Pants.

Before the Harvey Weinstein scandal, everyone laughed at how Mike Pence would always bring his wife to a meeting if there was another woman, and he said, I won't be alone in a room with women, and people said this is this is madness. And then after Harvey Weinstein, people came out and said, well, you see, this is why he's doing it, to protect him from infidelity, to protect him from making these mistakes. Is that a good argument in how we should tackle these scenarios? But what what

is the what is the argument? The argument is an age old argument that says men are biological creatures in perpetual in search of an outlet. They can't control themselves, and it is the woman who has to be his border, his boundary, and his full stop. The women's bodies need to be covered, hidden, haircut, your name it in order for him to be able to control his lustful urges, and she is helping him to do so because the

poor man can't do it on his own. You know, if he's traysed, it's because of her, because she was so seductive, she was the temptress. You know, it's the poor man. He's never in charge of anything. He's got power of gallore, but he's never in charge of his own urges because she has to control them and not do what she didn't do a good job at it.

That's that's an interesting point because I mean, we saw that in the election, you know, we saw people digging back into the world of bull and Hillary Clinton, where people went Hillary, she didn't leave her man, She's stuck with him. And and you talk in the book about how the shame has always shifted, but it is always on the woman. Shame used in what ways. So it used to be that divorce carried or the stigma. Today, especially for a woman, choosing to stay when you can

leave is the new shame. So not only are you betrayed and you're ashamed of being cheated on, but on top of it, you have to lie about it because if you were to reach out to people, and especially if you choose to stay with that person, you are tripled under the triple accused. And it is more of a pressure on women because today that we choose their one and only, that notion that it shouldn't happen. I

waited so long, I picked my soul made. When you deceived me, lye on me, cheat on me, etcetera, you shattered the grand ambition of love. It means I'm not your one and only after all. And affairs have always been painful, but now they have become traumatic. When when you talk about the State of Affairs in the book Rethinking, infidelity is a blasphemous term for many human beings. People will say as to how can your infidelity is the

worst thing that could possibly happen. Anyone who cheats, anyone who's in a marriage where it ends because of cheating, is the worst human being possible. You argue something slightly different, not condoning, but arguing that they can be a good that comes from this. How So, I wrote The State of Affairs because I think that we need a new conversation for the oldest sin. Any audience, I could ask here, have you been a child whose parent was unfaithful or

left for somebody else? Have you been the offspring of an illicit love? Are you the friend too that somebody has been weeping on, Are you the confidante? Or are you one of the three primary protagonists. In the end, eighty percent of dis audience will say that they have been affected by the experience of infidelity in their lives.

So it's not a few bad apples, and for that we need a conversation that's more caring, more compassionate, and doesn't just reduce everything in black and white, which doesn't mean to say it's good, but it does mean to say that it is complex, and it has this that since marriage was invented, and so to the taboo against it, as as somebody who deals with couples, as somebody who deals with powerful men, as somebody who deals with a

lot of these stories. I don't know if there's any right answer, But how do you see a way forward? You know? You see, like people go Harvey went to rehab and then checked himself out, and Kevin Space also went to rehab, and everyone's going to the same rehab. And in Congress they're investigating themselves and then they don't find anything, or they do, but it's done, and it seems like there's a quandary that people are now going like, well,

what is the way forward? Is the rehabilitation? Should it be complete ostracization? Just from your point of view, do you think that there is something that we could be doing in society to restore power balance? Is there something that we could be doing to to to equalize how women are treated in all of these environments? But let's establish something the rehabs. There is no rehab for infidelity, you know. And this is a way of kindaby. We used to be in ful. Today we have illness and

it is the new frame. So we can pathologize our behaviors, you know, and make ourselves be sick suddenly. But what is it? What is it actually that it's going to be treated in that place You're you're acting as criminally and you're going to get helpful. So um, I think that we have to separate these two and not the same reality the story of infidelity. What of the very important changes to this, you know, Interestingly, affairs have accompanied marriage,

regardless of the model of marriage. They were part of the patriarchal marriage, they were part of the romantic marriage, they're part of the new self factualization. It always has existed, and it involves for us to ask questions about the transgressive nature of desire, not just about power. You know, I I when we think affairs, it's quick to think about your Congress guys. But I get a letter today of you know, my spouse has MSS. My spouse is bedridden.

I'm taking care of my partner. I will never leave my partner, and I've had an affair for the last four years. That's a very different reality of infidelity. And to just make it be about people with no conscience and narcissistic people or people who, amongst the many things, have also been unfaithful doesn't help us understand the complexity of this very multifaceted experience of of of our humanity.

Thankfully you wrote a book because it's one of the most fascinating conversations, So thank you so much for being on the shows. Is available now to draw your minds. We can also listen to cs thos podcast Where Should We Begin? On audible as the for All Everybody, The Daily Show with Trevor no Ears editions. Subscribe to The Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount. Plus this has been a Comedy Central podcast.