Donald Trump Runs the Military & The Role of Militias - Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy

It's been two years since Donald Trump lost election, and although a stubbornly high number of Republicans still don't believe he lost, they are at least coming around to the reality that he is no longer the president who is running the government right now, President Trump, well most of them are. For some the truth is just too much to bear. I found this out firsthand when I was told that AMaGA rally that Trump is still in charge

of the military. He's running the government and the military, and he's running the military, so we should blame him for what in an Afghanistan. Thank you for talking to George and enjoycing President current President Trump. It makes me think of that famous courtroom quote from a few good men. You can't handle the truth. Although if you think about it. That's a quote from Colonel Nathan R. Jessup, who, as a member of the military of logic follows still reports

to Donald Trump. Damn it, checkmate it again. This Jordan Clapper figures the conspiracy and today we're talking about the military. The Trump is still in charge of the military conspiracy theory. It's just one of many military related conspiracy theories. And we have two people here with us today who know a lot about them and the people who believe them,

both outside and inside military ranks. They are Paul's oldra a veteran who covers military issues and as the editor of the weekly newsletter of The Rock that focuses on national security and defense. We're also joined by Dr Amy Cootter of Middlebury College, who has studied and spent time with militia groups like the Oath Keepers. Guys, welcome aboard, Nice to be here, Thank you for having good to

have you guys. All right, Paul, I want to start here help us understand the logic behind the theory that Donald Trump is still in charge of the military. I mean, even with Ivanka bailing on the campaign, I'm not even convinced he's in charge of his family anymore? Walk us through this. How is he in charge of the military? Well, Jordan, he's the commander in chief. Still, he didn't lose the election. I mean didn't you didn't you read that? That's how

it works. If you believe it, you can achieve it and or convince a bunch of other people you have achieved it. It seems wild. So why do people actually think this? Um? It really boils down to his A lot of his supporters believe that he he did not lose the election. Um. And you know that's kind of coming into uh an interesting interesting part where he's running for re election now, Um, even though he didn't lose

the last election. But even still, um, Yeah, he's the commander in chief and so if he's if he's still the president of United States, then he's still the commander in chief and he's still has pole in the military and um and and oh by the way, um, a whole bunch of the military is is supportive Trump and we'll we'll, you know, go with every his every word. I hope the sarcasm is coming through. I under I

can hear some of the sarcasm in there. I guess what helped me walk through a little bit of that sounds it sounds ridiculous, but it's not the only time I've heard this out and about. I know people are denying the idea that Donald Trump lost the election, but there are people who still believe, Okay, he lost and Biden is in charge, but that there is something going on that we cannot see where Donald Trump is in charge of the military apparatus. Can you speak to that mindset?

I know it's it's not true, but but speak to the mindset. Where does something like that come from? Why? Why are there people who are grasping onto this? Is there like a military idea that there is some sort of shadow general, shadow leader, Like what? What? What? What draws people to this? Other than the inability to let

go of the idea that Trump is still president? Well, I think it would come I think primarily you look back to the Q and on conspiracy of of you know, the there there's this big, you know, massive underground you know, lizard galaxy of of UH. You know democrats and celebrities, you know, stealing children and and doing all kinds of stuff, And that all came from UH. A person calling himself

hit himself q uh. You know, many people became convinced by this, this whole idea of getting really highly classified information inside the government. And the idea was at that time was q Q was was inside you know, it was supportive of the Trump administration and fighting back against the so called deep state. Uh, that is that is

trying to thwart his agenda. And so you know, if you if you think that, if you can believe that that there's some you know, person inside the government who's not only sharing all this really highly classified information with the public on a message board. Uh, I don't see much separation. I don't see how you you know, how we go from that too, believing that Trump is still president.

That's not that wacky when you think about it. You know, I think what always, what always makes me laugh within it, though, is the the belief in the fun parts, the wearing of the uniform and the stars and the power, but none of the accountability of what has happened. You know, we discuss the critical things that people are critical of, the Afghanistan withdrawal, and the person that I talked to very clearly was like, no, no, he had nothing to do with that. It's almost as if you know, in

military parliance, you have a dress uniform. Correct. I'm not somebody who was in the military, but I've definitely watched films that are about the military, and I have to understand that you have a dress uniform and you also as an infantryman you're in the Marines, correct, correct, Yes, you also have something you might wear functionally to go do dirtier, more applicable things, right, camouflage, Yes, Camo, I

knew it. Camo. I've done all the research, and it's as if believing in this theory is a belief that you only get to wear your dress whites and that there is no secondary part to it all, which is sort of emblematic of the whole American thought process. Um, I think you you actually, you bring up a really good point, which is a lot of these conspiracy theories

they hinge on people's ignorance of the military. You know, less than less than one percent of the of Americans serve in the military, Like it's a very small number. During World War Two we had about ten percent of of the of Americans in the in in the military. Of course, we're fighting a gigantic war and that makes sense, but that um, that number is is so much smaller now.

And so what we what I've found from um, you know, just reporting on these issues for the past decade, being in the Marine Corps before that, most people have no idea how the military works. You know, I think, um, a lot of people think that we just you know, march around, we salute and and then you know they like press a button, break glass, and you go to war, and like there's a black box in there. Nobody really understands what it's actually like. And and you know the

thing is that most of it's really boring. You know, we're just sitting around waiting, waiting to do things. Um, we're doing maintenance or other kinds of stuff. But those are less sexy parts of the military that the military itself doesn't really share all that much with the public. Um. And you know that ignorance really feeds these ideas, you know that the military is you know, doing nefarious things and you know they're up to no good. And and also um, also the the idea that the military can

do these amazing things with ease. You know, like like like the Benghazi attack could have just been stopped just just easily by by you know, the military just swooping in there with jets from Italy and stuff like that. Um, it takes more planning and and actually you know, diving in and figuring out how to actually do things. Uh, it's it's like it's it's almost like a comic book. Caricature of the military is what what you get from from a lot of Americans. You just you know, don't

really know any better. You're telling me if even if you've played call of duty, that's not enough information to fully understand how the military works. I mean, the call of call of duty is realistic for combat experience. I know, enough said, enough said, enough said. I I much like if you watched Wag the Dog, you understand American politics as well. That and maybe half of American president. You

get it. You know how this thing works. Now you should talk about it and fear the institutions and of themselves. If call of duty was more realistic, there would be soldiers sitting around really bored, you know, smoking cigarettes. Uh you know, really you know, bitching about their chain of command and complaining about um, complaining about you know, going

out on patrol that day. Like that's that's the more realistic version of combat offer rations the joke is like, the joke is like, you know, combat is is ninety or one percent sheer, terror and boredom, right, and that that usually is is pretty accurate. Yea. So like bitching and moaning is a part of the military. So play your call of duty, but then make sure you watch a good season of curb your enthusiasm to get the full understanding. Right, I knew it, I knew it. I

want to actually fill out this. We're talking about the military here, but sort of our conversation today is going to fold in also the world of uh militias and citizen militians. So so I want to bring amy in amy. A lot of these conspiracy theories they become incoherent the further you look into them. But I want to talk about what you've studied citizen militia's. Can you define for our audience what is a militia compared to what being

in the military is. And also somebody who studied who's talked about militias, I'm curious if you have a militia code name, because I do, and it's cold Brew and it got me a lot of cred with the Georgia State militia does everybody here get a cool nickname? Sir? If you don't have one, will help get one for you. Could I be cold Brew or if that's taken a French price, cold brew works better. I think you like that, Yes, sir,

it feels very bold yet smooth finish. Well to start with your first question, US domestic militias are civilian militias. They are intended to exist outside the military, outside the national Guard, and their members are people who really see it as their personal civic duty to kind of act in concert in some ways with the military, to be almost a civilian line of defense against potentially invasion, potentially natural disasters, anything in between. A lot of the members

actually have military training. Among the groups I studied, about two thirds of the leaders, about one third of the other members had some service experience, and many of the others who did not kind of felt like they had missed out. They had wanted to be in the service but didn't qualify medically or for some of the reason didn't get that service, and this was almost like a

surrogate for them. UM. Their experiences were really about trying to, in their view, stand up for their country, defend the constitution. UM in the American way of life in terms of how they specifically defined it. And as to a code name, do you have a code name? Some of them actually did call me renegade because I would study them at a time when it was not really popular for liberal academics to be dealing with more conservative topics. Well, I would say this. I was talking with Amy offline a

little bit about this. But uh, I read Amy's dissertation years ago because I am fascinated about militia's. I'm from Michigan, which if you're into militia's, Michigan is a great place

to be. We got some o G militia action happening there, um, and I think what is fascinating about it is, Uh, there's a lot of talk about the effects of militia's and extremist groups, uh recently, but you've been doing this for quite some time right now, when a lot of people, I don't think look into is what is appealing about militia's, the process of militia's and the average militia go er.

I think what I noticed when some of the time that I spent with a few militia members, I spent some time with some oathkeepers recently, Uh, just hanging out having fun, watching mailboxes, trying to save the election. And I hung out with some folks in Georgia way back when. And I think the military side of it is fascinating because there are some of those people, oathkeepers in particular, who are ex military folks, ex cops, who see it

as an extension of their service. They made an oath to this country into the constitution, and this is their extension of it. There are other folks too who feel like, uh, just uh day players who wanted to be in the mility Harry and perhaps some had very interesting stories about um an inability to get into the military. Uh, like you had an astigmatism, so now you wanna be in the militia. It's good enough, Okay, fine, I get it.

Seeing a lot of cars playing here, there's military here, And then there's a lot of these people who are pretending to be military here. You know how you know, because they don't have badges. They just have notes from their wife that says you can go for the weekend and hang out with your friends, but be back on time. But there's this funny balance of people wanting to serve people pretending to serve, and I guess I'm curious too of how you see that aligned with their relationships to

the to to actual military forces. Did you find is do you often see it as in concert with the American uh military system or is oftentimes some of these militias looking to act in case the military in and of itself is something that turns the American people. Yeah, the relationship that militias have with the military is frankly

quite complicated. It's something that they tend to like in the abstract in theory at least, because they believe that military and national defense are kind of the primary functions of what the federal government is supposed to do. It's one of the few legitimate functions of the federal government from their perspective. But they think that in practice the military is prone to corruption or other problems that they see as being kind of endemic to the government as

a whole. So it tends to be the case, and there can be variation across units or even across sometimes individual militia members, but it tends to be the case that they really honor and revere veterans and service members themselves, but have a lot of distrust for the military as an institution, have a lot of distrust for military leadership. Paul, Does it go both ways? You know, the military world and those circles. What is the link for those in

service when they look at the modern militia movement. There's military people in the militias, but also there are those people who are kind of uh, you know, we kind of call it stolen valor if you're trying to kind of um, you know, represent yourself as as part of the military, you know, and you know, like some people will do it a whole lot, you know, throwing medals

on their chest and stuff like that. Others will just kind of pretend and where the gear and you know there's like there's air software's and stuff that where all the gear. They look very military and represent themselves as if you know, like hey, I get get yourr thank

you for your service, free meal at Denny's or something. Um. But I I think I think, you know, military members probably looking at the militia they think they're a bunch of geeks, you know, like you know, get a job, like do do uh you know, if you want to join the military, then join the military. Uh. It just looks like this kind of pretend defense thing, and it really ignores the reality of of military operations and what

the U. S. Military is capable of. You know, if you're looking at a militia, if you're in a militia and uh, you're you're there, you know, you're training to uh defend the constitution whatever that that that idea they think they are doing. UM. But you know, bottom line is is they're also thinking about potentially going up against the U. S. Military. UM. And that's not a winning battle, you know, like, uh, guys with guys with small arms aren't going to really do much against an army with

you know, drones and and missiles and all kinds of stuff. Uh. And so it's it it seems a little bit lopsided. UM. But I think I think also they tap into the military legitimacy of of wearing a uniform and looking like you're organized, um and you know, following some sort of chain of command. These are these are military concepts, and

they they make you look you know, more professional. UM. And that's the reason why they seek out military members and veterans, because that lends them credibility and legitimacy among um, among their their followers and supporters. You know, even even if you're even if you're you know, if you're a uh, you know, some nerd who could never could never get into the military. Well you can at least join the militia and be close to you know, former military members

and kind of it kind of brushes off on you. Um, you are spilling that t spilling that tia, that militia. Well. Also, I do think it also plays off of also the public perspective of the mility. Are there's as as a civilian, I think there is a general misunderstanding of the ranks and the difficulties and the world of the military. And so somebody purporting to be a militia member who wears the outfits, talks the talk um in a public setting is almost treated as a person with law enforcement bona

fides or has has put in the time. It's it's like you, if you buy enough t shirts with flags on them and you have good enough posture, then liberal elites like myself are going to let you get on a plane before them and they're not gonna say anything about it. So you can you can steal enough valor to get you in certain positions. Um, it's it's interesting. I'm curious. Amy. We talked about some of the perhaps with the goofier sides of that, uh and the desire

to be more legitimate like the military. But you look at something like January six, and you have h as your members, oathkeepers, proud boys, people who are describing the capital with a legitimate fear that the military in and of itself could be utilized against them. The one thing you couldn't help but notice was just how many people look like they were prepared for battle. From the tactical

vest to the pitchforks, this rally felt charged. You can tell these people really love America by the number of weapons they brought to hurt other Americans. Where where where does a theory like that come from? And how do

they get to that point? Well, you know, I think I can come from a few different places, but among some of the specific groups that I have spent time with, it's come in part from an interesting dynamic where everything that Paul just described as true, that there are these folks who really want to attach on to the military sort of aura, if you will, and try to kind of claim some of that legitimacy, but also there are veterans who actively seek out something like a militia to join,

and that can be for one of two reasons. Um. One reason is that they kind of miss the camaraderie of the military. They've been honorably discharged, and they want to find a space where people are trying to look up to them and learn from some of their experiences. On the other hand, I've encountered some folks who really did not enjoy their military experience to say the least. Um. They really felt like there was no legitimate purpose to

some of the conflicts they were involved in. One man in particular, for example, really believes, um that Desert Storm was truly all about experimentation on service members, that there was no other legitimate purpose for it. He came back incredibly angry and told me that he wanted to join something like a militia as a way to figure out how to fight back against the government, to take a

proactive stand against the government. So I think some of that kind of my mentality kind of seeps in there where even some people who have direct military experience kind of feed those narratives that the military might be the enemy. And usually that narrative is not about the rank and file, but again about the leadership or about the government, and then they're misleading the rank and file, and they're they're doing all this nefarious stuff that most military service members

may not even be aware is happening. So they feel like it's their job to raise awareness of that to fight back against it. In some ways, that's the logic that kind of undergirds the Oath Keepers as an organization as a whole, because their their whole purpose was supposedly to remind military and law enforcement about the oaths that they took to serve the people as opposed to serving the government. I want to talk a little bit about

that distrust there, Paul. You've written and you've been very critical of some of the conspiracy theories that have been perpetrated by Donald Trump. You've called him America's crazy uncle because of these conspiracies that he has spread, including one that claims Joe Biden killed Seal Team six to cover up the reality that Osama bin Laden was never shot and it was a body double, which is wild, but it was something that he pushed out there. What what

what is the story behind that one? So this one is very very strange and weird. And it's it's worth noting right away that Rob O'Neil, the the Seal Team six member who who who claimed to have shot Bin Laden. He's credited with killing Bin Laden on that raid. He was and he's also a big fan of Donald Trump. But even he was like, whoa bro, can you kind of back this off a little bit? And and and pushed back on this theory. It goes back to the

Seal Team sixth raid an Osama Bin Laden. This happening in the Seals went into Pakistan, they rated Bin Laden's house, they killed him, um, and they they took his body back. They got a ton of intelligence for it. It was a very successful operation by by all kinds of measures. Uh. Soon after that, I'd say, you know, maybe within months or so, there was a helicopter crash in Afghanistan, um and a large number unfortunately of of of Navy seals were in that crash. And this this helicopter call sign

was Extortion seventeen. And the theory of Extortion seventeen going down was that these were seals that were involved in the Bin Laden raid and in order to you know, keep them silent, to make sure that you know, and nothing nothing about the bin laden raid that the government didn't want getting out. Obama killed them, made the made the made the helicopter crash somehow, and that it was a cover up of the of the bin laden raid.

And now we see that this is sort of refashioned into well, actually no, it was the vice president at the time, Joe Biden, and he was the one who set down this helicopter for some reason. Um. And it

it just it just doesn't make any sense. Um. And it also it also makes very little sense if if the government is trying to you know, suppress seals from you know, revealing the truth, and why is why is Rob O'Neil still alive, Why is Matt Bissonette, who wrote a book about the entire rate two seals have revealed details of this um and yet the government wanted to you know, take down, takedown a helicopter and and and you know, bring down the true It's it's totally ludicrous,

um and and really really unfortunate. The thing about this these conspiracy theories that people forget is that there are these were seals that went down in a helicopter crash. There's a pilot, their pilots in this in this crash, army pilots they all have families, you know, they have they have friends, and there they they are. Now I'm

sure affected by this conspiracy theory nonsense. Um. And you know, whenever there's some kind of new article coming out about the extortion seventeen cover up, um, it's you know, it's if that were if that were my loved one, that that was lost, I'd be pretty piste off by by this stuff. And it just continues and kind of snowballs and and you know, one conspiracy theorist sites the other conspiracy theorist, and it's kind of, you know, goes on

and on. Trump was challenged on this one by Savanna the Gut three during the election at a town hall. Just this week, you retweeted to your eight seven million followers a conspiracy theory that Joe Biden orchestrated to have Seal Team six, the Navy Seal to six, killed to cover up the fake death of Bin Laden. Now, why would you send that was a retweet, That was an opinion of somebody, But that was a retweet. I'll put

it out there. People can decide for them. How do you think members of the military react when they see a conspiracy theory like this, probably like what the what the hell, like, why are people believing this craft? Like that's that That would be my initial reaction. Can we can we teach some more critical thinking skills in school? I look at these kinds of things, and I think, like, we are, uh, we are a society with a whole lot of people that are fooled by uh, misinformation, disinformation.

And what I fear is is nation states using that to their advantage. And I'm talking about China and Russia. That is not a conspiracy theory that these these nations do this. They have substantial intelligence apparatus. Is they have information warfare specialists just as we do, and they have

budgets that support this stuff. And so if you have a society that's already you know, not even not even able to discern fact from fiction, because you have a former American president, you know, throwing fuel on that fire, Um, that's gonna be uh, that's gonna be used to the advantage of of China and Russia. Um. And it's not

it's not propaganda. That's like, you know, like so obvious that it's you know, it's like suddenly you're uh, you're gonna see some message that says, like, you know, Vladimir Putin is the greatest leader of all time. It's it's more about egging these things on and and sort of adding more fuel to the fire and more b s to actually expand the amount of people who are confused about what the truth is um or just questioning, questioning complete you know, reality of what's going on, and you

know there's examples of this stuff, and like like jade Helm. Uh, there was an operation in Texas, Uh, this training exercise in which a huge number of conspiracy theorists you know, started talking about jade Helm um as you know, some kind of government take over, the military was going to take over the entire United State AIDS and this training exercise was some kind of cover. Of course it was bogus and ludicrous, but you know that that's that's like

our internal conspiracy stuff. You just imagine if if you know that that expands, that goes out and you have China sharing this stuff, and that actually happened with jade Helm, right, is it? Jade jade Helm specifically didn't Governor Abbott in Texas put troops activated troops because of that conspiracy, and China activated bots to gin up more chaos around it because they saw that as a weakness, right. It was what you're describing is our our susceptibility to conspiracies is

a legitimate vulnerability to our own national security. I want to pause right there. I want to talk a little bit more about jade Helm. After the break, we'll be right back, Paul. We were talking a little bit about jade Helm. Technically, what is it jade Hell fifteen? UM, I don't know. I don't know what number we're on. Of of the times that jade Helm has led to the collapse of the government, it is, I know, sometimes

they throw a number on there. It sounds so much of these conspiracies, they have to sound somewhere between a Born Identity movie and um an Exotic Dancer, And if you can get that right right there in the middle, then it's gonna catch fire. And jade Helm was one of those. Correct. The thing is that that's that's crazy about the jade Helm conspiracy is that you had a whole lot of people who are thinking that this was

some kind of government takeover. The military was, you know, planning some kind of coup, and you know, the governor of Texas actually had troops from the National Guard you know, activated and and and kind of keeping an eye on Jade Helm activities, which is it's just wild to think about that you have straight up b s actually affecting

policy makers and moving them to action. Uh, this is this is I mean, you know, part of it is is probably you know, I'd imagine there's some kind of politics at play where the governor is trying to kind of pretend like he's you know, he's uh, he's doing something about this this problem. But I would really hope instead that you would say, hey, this is this is nutty, this makes no sense, and this isn't happening, and I don't actually waste National guardsman's time sending them out to

to take care of this um. But it's not like outside the realm of possibility to to think about these types of conspiracies or or just simple misinformation disinformation. The people that are making national security decisions, policy decisions, uh, movements in the military, they're susceptible to this this information just like anybody else. And you know, some of them have training on these types of things. Some are are

you know, understand counterintelligence and information warfare um. But a lot of them, a lot of them, don't you know. They they're just like they're just like every other American you know, and they you know, so if you know where where you come from in America, that's that's your your neighbors are Some of them are in the military, and they're still getting the same information that you're doing on Facebook. You know, they're still looking at it too.

Oh no, don't say it. Don't say that. I mean, yeah, you're saying. Our susceptibility to conspiracies is a vulnerability at a national security level, especially when people in positions of power buy into this ship. Right? Do we are we handing out stars too easily in the military? I look at I mean General Flynn. I don't know. General seems like a pretty big position. And Jen Rold Flynn, now he believes in all the Q and on nonsense. He

believes the Democratic Party as all demonic Satan worshippers. This man was a general and from all the movies I've watched, that's like tip top if I recall. So, what's what's going on there? Are we not vetting our generals enough? Or is this just what an American general looks like right now, batshit crazy. Well, to be fair, he is not the first batshit crazy general that the U. S. Military has ever had. Uh if you look, well, is that a problem? I guess you know what? Is that

a problem too? Because I think that brings up a larger question, right the military in and of itself. We we put the military and a pedestal, and rightfully so they protect our country and and keep us safe. Uh. And yet there's this American ideal of the wild general who goes on in there Custer with all of his crazy dogs and what have you. From the beginning, there's stories of generals who's who let reality be damned and that makes them heroes. But is that a myth that

is starting to erode and hurt us in modern day warfare? Well, I think it's it's always a it's just generally a mistake to put uh put people, uh you know, high up military leaders, military members in general, on a pedestal. You know, they the we should we should we should respect and honor the U. S. Military and service members who you know, I swear an oath to the Constitution and raise their raise their right hand to do so.

That is something that most people don't do, and they they the vast majority of of of of them do do so honorably. Then there's people like Michael Flynn who rise up in the ranks and and and and and go go places up there. And the thing about Flynn is that he was he was a very widely respected UH intel guy UM. He he he's credited with with

really sort of transforming the intelligence world. And you know, on that sort of reputation, he moved up the ranks and he was he was eventually part of the leader of the Defense Intelligence Agency. It's like the military's version of the c I a UM, and they deal with,

you know, gathering intelligence on foreign militaries. And you know, at that point, there's a there's a there's a really famous Washington Post article about Flynn's time at d I A and after, and one of the quotes that I found really fascinating is is some some of the some of his subordinates started talking about his sharing of what we're called Flynn facts, which were basically ideas, crazy sounding ideas that he would put out there and try to

get the intelligence to sort of molding to his idea. So, for example, he would say something like like like you know, there's definitely like an Iraq correct connection to this thing, or you know the Iranians are behind this or something, and it's like, that's not actually how you're supposed to

start with intelligence. You're supposed to like like you don't want to find the bad guy, like you're telling me this one of the architects of the Iraq War, Like the idea of oh, there's weapons of mess destruction over here, let's go invade this country. That's not a good starting point for a good clean intel. You actually want to have a starting point of of being open to being wrong. And but the military doesn't create that, right archie does

Does the military create those types of people? It seems like that is a vulnerability in a modern modern military. Right you were a soldier, Were there any classes on with any improv classes about being wrong and saying yes and to any other idea yes and no? I? Um I you know the thing about that, well, the thing about that article that you know, it really sticks out to me is that you don't rise to this position

without other people seeing warning signs along the way. And the thing about the military, um, you know, it's it's it's sometimes it is easier to pass the problem off to someone else than deal with it right now, you know, it's the federal government, and so it's hard to fire somebody, especially hard to get rid of somebody out of the military. And how do you get rid of somebody from the military who's you know, a little like saying some weird stuff like what is how do you put that in

the performance review and justify it? You know? And so he he, uh he and others have have sort of moved up into higher up ranks and and now we're kind of seeing the consequences of that where uh, you know, it's not Michael Flynn anymore. You know, it's General Flynn. It's all over his Twitter, it's you know, he introduced himself so much as General Flynn. And and yeah, I

get it. You know, if you're retired general, sure, you want to you want to maintain the you know, the respect and you know kind of the dignity of that rank. But I'm not walking around, you know, telling everybody I'm Sergeant Zoldra, you know, like it's it's a it's a way to uh, you know, get more legitimacy to your ideas. And it's it's people here a lieutenant general, a former

lieutenant general, or a former colonel. Um there. You know, there's there's lieutenant colonels out there that are sharing conspiracies that I've found and and people hear these because and they believe it because he's a general. Why would a general lie to me? You know, generals are very honorable and and they they tell us the truth, and they they've been there, he's been in for a really long time.

And so of course he's telling us the truth about the the you know, the krack in being released and you know, the uh the you know, the colonel telling us that the green Berets have found mail in ballots at some secret facility in Europe that should have gone to Trump. You know, of course that's true because they're

a colonel. I think there's there's a there's a secondary level of stolen valor that exists with folks like like Trump, who takes somebody like a General Flynn and they use his title as a way to bolster their own bs in a way that gives them credibility just because they're hiding behind the shield of somebody with the title like that. That that's but that's a whole that's a whole different.

That's editorial I'm working on. I want to talk about some of these real life examples of theories and ideas that could put into action. I want to talk about the Wolverine Watchman. Uh. There's a splinter group of the Michigan Liberty Militia and they're the guys who wanted to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer. I want to know a little bit about the story behind uh them and how they plotted

to do exactly that. Yeah, I mean, I think the main thing to know with them is that they have been stirred up by this broader milieu that we've been talking about, where conspiracism about a variety of things, but especially about COVID nineteen was kind of at the forefront of their motivation. Um for them, it seems that they really believed that the lockdown efforts in Michigan, and perhaps some that were being discussed nationally we're really interpreted as

government tyranny. They felt like it was going to slip into further tyranny, that that was just kind of the beginning of telling citizens what they could and could not do, and seemed to believe that it was their personal responsibility to do something about that. UM, And I think, to Paul's earlier point, part of the reason this kind of conspiratorial thinking is damaging to our national security is not just what it can potentially open up internationally, but how

it creates divisive content, even among Americans. It's been really interesting to observe the militia movement over a long period of time because folks that I was watching in two thousand and eight, two thousand nine, two thousand ten, who were very skeptical of some conspiracy theories, who openly laughed at some of them that people kind of assumed were part and parcel of the militia movement UM got turned on to more and more of them, especially during Trump's administration,

especially as Q and on theories sort of spread across the Internet and especially on places like Facebook. And so I think that the idea that some people have special knowledge or special insights into the way the world really works is a major variable creating some of this divisiveness, and potentially you're creating the ability for some people to get so wrapped up in it that they feel like they have to commit violence to do something to course

correct our culture here. I think that's that's a that's a great point. There's something special about feeling like you have that secret information um and that's something you can sort of build an identity around. It makes you feel like you have a sense of purpose. I guess the time that you spent with militia's talking to militia members, what is something that people don't understand about it the

modern militia movement that that you noticed. I think probably the major thing is that most militia members are average people. Like they They're really not social outliers. They have families, they have jobs. Militia activity is something that they care very much about, but they're not necessary early just centering their entire life around it in the way that we

sort of stereotypically portray. And I think we have ignored that at our peril because something that I've been trying to get people to understand for a long time is that much of what they believe politically, ideologically in other ways too, is very similar to what a lot of Middle America believes, at least a lot of white Middle America.

And I think that I kind of anticipated where we would go with the Trump election campaign and be on in ways that took a lot of people by surprise, because we we sort of dismiss militia ideology as fringe when actually they've just been a little bit louder and more comfortable with it in terms of sort of test owning it really when it's been something that's been shared among the a broader swath of the population really forever.

But what do you say to somebody who here's militia and they're like, oh, those are white nationalists, uh, far right extremists. How do you respond to how how far off are they with that assessment? You know, those elements

do overlap. But I think that that's overly simplistic in a way that makes us downplay what real white nationalism is, makes us kind of miss opportunities for intervention potentially with people who aren't that extreme, people who could potentially be talked out of in some ways at least their conspiratorial thinking and some of that divisiveness as well. If we sort of paint them all with one rush, it is more of a blik picture than I think what we

really have. We're gonna take a short break and we come back. We'll talk about what's next. For military extremism here in the United States. Amy groups like the Oathkeepers have been emboldened by extremists of the Republican Party supporting them, but also hit with the realities of court sentences because of their role in January six. What's next for groups like the Oathkeepers. Yeah, I think probably with the Oathkeepers specifically,

that they are done as we know them. Um. It's kind of interesting because the Oathkeepers have always had a bit of a mixed reputation within the broader militia world.

Some people sort of appreciated what Stuart Rhodes and some of the other members were trying to do in terms of prioritizing oaths to civilians basically, um, whereas others thought that Rhodes was too big for his britches and speaking beyond what he was really able to do, so based off of his own experiences and based off of how he kind of excluded some other long standing militia organizations

when when he was first starting. So personally, I think that the trials and everything that's going to follow from that is going to be pretty devastating to the Oathkeepers as we have known them. But that doesn't mean that

the underlying ideology has gone away. Um. Many groups that have previously affiliated as oathkeepers have just changed their name or taken down their Facebook pages or their other websites, and they still very much believe that the election was stolen, that it their personal responsibility to do something to prevent

the next presidential election from being stolen. So I think headed into we're going to have to be incredibly cautious and keep an eye on the narratives that develop that as Trump continues his next campaign, as other people sort of try to out trump him. Um, we may see other figures even rise to the forefront in terms of their ability to appeal to these groups, to make them feel like their fears are legitimate. Paul, I'm curious how we talk to people in the military, people in citizen militias.

You served in the military, You served with white supremacists who had Nazi tattoos. Uh, how do you talk to someone like that about about their beliefs. I wish I had a good answer for this, Um, but it's UM, It's it's terribly difficult. Um. I can you know, you know, you brought up a point about the you know, not

to tattoo I was. I joined the Marine Corps in in you know, after nine eleven, and you know, got to my first unit, and um, you know, one of my one of my senior senior marines, uh, you know, was a little bit higher in rank than than me, and he, you know, they were in charge and I was the junior guy, and UM, I didn't know what it was at the time, but he had some he had some kind of like Hyle Hitler kind of coded

tattoo UM on his arm. And and it's you know, having a person like that in your unit, UM is is incredibly dangerous. Uh. First and foremost that you know, can so discord among a close unit. You know. The thing in the Marine Corps that we we talked about is is is a spree to corps. This this sense of you know, working together, um and you're very very close and so uh and we're also we're also serving with uh, you know, black black you know, I got

black grunts in my platoon. I've got you know, people from Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic and you know, Mexico like it's all every it's it's just everybody. It's just a it's a mixed bag. It's all of America and you have one one person who you know basically hates a portion of your platoon. UM. It kind of like makes you wonder, what are they gonna Are they gonna do the right thing in combat? Will they will? They?

Will they do? You know, will they will they protect the people that are you know they don't like UM. You know, it's there's there's that fear, but but also it's it's it's the fear of of stealing weapons, stealing ammunition and Malaya shows have UH done this many times in the past. There's there's plenty of examples of of of using military members who are parts of of militias or parts of UH you know, these kind of extremist groups and they basically use their military access to supply

them with with guns and ammunition. It's also really concerning from an intelligence standpoint to have have someone like that who who's you know, loyalty is maybe not with a hundred percent with the unit and with the military. When you have this dual loyalty to a militia group or or some you know, extremist group outside of the military, it's right for the Defense Department to wonder you know, what are what are these what are these people doing? And um, it's it's a it's a real it's a

real problem. Um because once you're in inside, you're largely trusted. You know, you've made it through the basic training. You maybe have gone through some kind of security clearance or you know, but you're you're trusted. People aren't you know, skeptical of you or pushing back on you as much as they would a civilian. You know, that's outside of this military sphere. And and it's um, you know, it's it's the it's the supposed it's it's called an insider threat,

and the military takes that, takes that very seriously. When it comes to like cybersecurity, there's insider threat, uh, you know software and things like that. Um, But there's not a lot to do for the insider threat for you know, the the guy like me who's joining the platoon and like this is my senior marine. I couldn't you know if I knew what that tattoo was at the time, Like how do I report that? What am I supposed

to tell? People? Like It's shouldn't be a hard or difficult decision to get rid of you know what I think is a scumbag? Um. Um, you know, like, but that's it's not always that easy. Is the military ripe for conspiratorial thinking? UH? An institution that UH relies on loyalty but also blind faith can be hijacked by charisma and power to have people follow. I think the stand was something like fiftent of the folks charged on January six. Um, we're a part of the military. At some point, does

that number surprise you? Not? Not really? UM. I think it goes back to it goes back to what I said before, which is the military is a reflection of society. They're the people in the military. Um, they're They're not you know, better or worse than the rest of America. Um. There just have all the guns, they take all the guns and tanks. They should be better, shouldn't they shouldn't that be the goal? The people with the tanks and

the guns should be better than all of us. They should be smarter, they should have the research for discipline, more loyal. Dear God, I hope that people with the tanks are better than me. They must be. They have to be. Look, look you're you're a dirt bag. So I'm sure, they're better. Thank you. That makes me feel better, thank you. But for seriously, I think it's it's they're just like you and I, UM, and they're just as

susceptible to this stuff. And and I I still I mean, just the other day, I had a friend of mine, UM, you know, sharing something on on Instagram like something about um funding for for the Ukraine War, UM, and how it's way too much, you know, the the Biden administration is wasting all our money and sending ninety billion dollars to the war and he could be spending it elsewhere. And you know, he was sharing it in like a

positive manner, like, oh my god, this is crazy. And I it totally makes sense if you see that, like, oh that's that's screwed up. And I looked at it. It's it's one of those things. And this happens a lot. It's like it's too good to check, and a lot of these things are just too good to check. And I looked, and I check because I care about this this person as I served with, and I looked it up.

It took me like basically five seconds to find the Congressional Research Service report, which is a nonpartisan outlet and looking up Ukraine funding and it's right around nineteen billion. It's like a rounding error on the Department Defense budget.

It's it's like the bang for our buck that we're getting in in security, in in um in in u S security and protecting Americans from our our competitor of ours Rush, who's that has been a competitor of ours for a very long time and will be a competitor competitor of ours for a very long time. That that that spending is so small. And but but looking it up, you know, I'm like, I'm like, hey, here's here's the

actual thing. And he's like, oh, thank you. You know, like some people, some people I've done that too, and they get pissed at me, you know, they they're really mad that I'm not buying into the conspiracy theory. And it's like it's it's hard to it's really hard to to push back on on on something like this when um, it's you've bought in so much to the idea that there's some kind of nefarious thing, you're closing off your mind to alternatives and and it's, um, it's just people.

It's it almost becomes sign of kind of religious. I think you should host some sort of Facebook class because that may be the only positive experience of people pushing back with an alternative point of view that was greeted with a thank you. Any kind of social media media. This was. It was very impressed. It was in the d M s. So I think, you know, we're nicer in the d M if it's on the comments. You know, I gave you. That's what this is. Slide into the

d M s and give facts. That's what people need to do. It's about time. I actually, I actually do think that that is something we need to do. Um and more people should do that. You know. It's it's really, it really is like it is a bit um. It's it's it's it's a bit of a bummer to see, you know, like just these conspiracies flourish and then there's nobody that's like saying like, here's the actual reality, you know, and I I will try my best if I think I might have a shot at at you know, correcting

the record for at least one other person. Um, And and really that's that's the that's the point for me. You know. It's like it's like, yeah, you're not going to impact the entire world. You're not going to push back on on this, this conspiracy mindset um, and you know, just this the crazy amount of misinformation. No one person is going to be able to to to stop that all but one person can have impact on one other person, you know, like, and that's that's that's worthwhile. I was

gonna say that I agree with that too. I mean, there's this academic research that that talks about this backlash effect where if we factually correct conspiracy theories, people just kind of dig further into them. And I think that can be true in some circumstances, although I think it's just a little bit too pessimistic for me to believe

that must be true always across the board. But if nothing else, especially in sort of those more public forums, when we say no, here's factual information, here's why the logic of this is wrong. I think at the very least it can prevent other people from slipping into that kind of thinking as well. That it might be a backstop too. You might not save that person, leave that man behind. That's a military concept, right, that's the laws

cost that person too bad. But maybe you can throw something down and they won't come rushing back in um Amy, I want to ask finally, what you expect to happen over the next few years with the citizen militia movement. Yeah, you know, I always say I wish I had a crystal ball, because there are so many variables right now that it's difficult to know for sure what's going to happen.

But I expect it's likely that we will have a resurgence once more, not just of militia's but of those groups that we tend to label right wing across the board headed into cycle, because I think that there are multiple political actors who now have learned how to play into the fears of these groups in an instrumental kind of way, and who see them as something that they can weaponize for their own benefits. So I I expect that we will see um pockets of resistance. I don't

think we'll see another January six. I think this is going to continue to be more about school boards and supposedly like culture war right type issues, but it's really about sort of who has a voice in culture, who has a voice in politics in a way that will absolutely show up in many of our campaign speeches, and what that election cycle is at least framed to be about, which I believe they're going to frame it to be more about sort of like the soul of America in

a way that's going to be very appealing to a lot of these groups and galvanizing them into action. You hear that America the weapon of the future. It's us. We are being weaponized, our susceptibilities, our free thinking, we are being we are being weaponized. Uh well, thank you guys, Thank you to Paul, Thank you to Amy for joining us here today. You're listening to Jordan Clapper figures the Conspiracy.

We'll see you next week. Listen to Jordan Clapper fingers the Conspiracy from The Daily Show on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wat's The Daily Show weeknights and eleven tent Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast