Black Superheroes Deserve the Space to Make an Impact | Beyond the Scenes

the world of black superheroes. Daily Show writer Ashton Womack, Daily Show Senior producer Aaron Lamarb Burlison, and contemporary artists Hebrew Brandley joined Roy to discuss how black superheroes can bring more authentic Black stories to the big screen. If you like the show, check out the Beyond the Scenes podcast wherever you get your podcasts, enjoy Welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes deeper into topics and discussions and segments that originally air on the

Daily Show. Like this is what you gotta think of this podcasts. This podcast is like you know, you know, how you go to church. You go to church, you can go to heaven. This podcast is them little sandwiches you get after church. Like you know, you go to church and even praise the Lord, but then down there in the fellowship hall, they got them a little finger sandwiches, and they got all them little the little peppermints. That being the bottom of a black, black lady's purse. That's

what this podcast is. I think that analogy works. This Black History Month, we are taking a look at a CP time I did not too long ago, about the history of black superheroes, and we talked about some of the more notable superheroes in black history. Give me a clip. Black superheroes are not new. In fact, they've been squeezing into spandex for decades. They didn't as far back as nineteen thirty six when cartoonist Jay Jackson created Speed Jackson

and the Chicago Defended the newspaper. Speed Jackson was a former track star at Howard University who was an excellent fistfighter, which may not sound powerful compared to today's superheroes with their laser eyes and sticky spider hands, which you have to think about it. Like sports, today's best athletes of the pinnacle of human physicality, while the best athletes from the nineteen thirties were just the ones with the least

polio times change. Jackson used his abilities to fight against fascist during the war and right the wrongs of a racist society, which is tough because superpowers don't help when you're fighting systemic racism. Doesn't matter if you have the strength of ten men, if none of those men can get a mortgage. To help me dive a little bit deeper into this topic, We've got a lot of brothers. We're gonna go around the horn here real quick. First up, as a certified nerd and stand up comedian and daily

show writer super nerd Ashton Boer. Are you trying to disrespect you? Gangster? Appreciate? I appreciate you. Know you're still Houston. You know what I'm saying? Yeah? How many times have you been on the show? Like? What number is this again? Like you have to Like, I think it's like my fourth time. Give a tap, give a take. Yeah. Also joining us is a comic artist who creates narrative driven work and incorporates his own character creations into his work.

Hebrew Brantley, Hebrew, how you doing today? What's up? Roy? I'm great man, I'm glad to be on. I appreciate you guys having well, appreciate you for being smart enough to not join us in this hot ass studio, nice and air conditioned where you are. Television is torture here, it's torture. Also, for the very first time, this man's work has helped make this podcast happen. Up until now, we have a senior producer and self professed geek of

all things, Aaron Lamar Brolson. Aaron, how you doing testing one too? Wow? This is how it feels like going beyond the scene. All right, yes, all right, yeah, I'm doing great. Or it's a pleasure and honor to be on the show with you. Normally you're normally helping to produce all these segments and put all the wheels on the car so it can go room. But thank you for settling in on this one. Because Ashton we was like, yeah, we talking about black gigs, and Aaron's like, well, you know,

I have a lot to say about it. I'll just write myself into the episode. Yeah, I was like, you should be an episode. What are we here for? So I'll go around the horn to the three of you. First, I want to know when you first started reading comic books and becoming engrossed in the world of comic books and when you recognize your first black comic superhero. Because I'm gonna be honest. For me, I grew up with budget limitations, and so you know where I'm from. You

could really choose one of two things. You could collect baseball cards or you could collect comic books. You could not afford both, and with a little bit of extra money I did have, I would spend that on video game magazine, shout out to GamePro, shout out to Electronic Game and monthly shout out to Nintendo Power. So I never yeah, I was like you speaking to my nerd heart right now. So I never I never dealt with the comic books. And so there would be kids in

middle school they have the comic books. But I just what I knew if comic books was the cartoons. If it didn't have a Saturday Morning cartoon, I couldn't tell you anything about it, knew nothing, but I could name you who was on the bench for the Cincinnati Rids. And so that's a different type of nerds that's still in You're still in the house. So but but this is but this is a world that I really do not have much of a It does not connect to

my childhood if I'm just being one hunting. So I want you all to walk me through how you all got connected in the comic books. Actually I'll start with you, But how did you get into comic books? And what was the first like sense of representation that you saw? If I would say, the way I got into comic books was I grew up on Fox. They had weekday afternoon cartoons and you'll watch x Men, you will watch all the superhero cartoons, and that sparked my love for

comic books. Now, the first superhero, the actual really got me truly loving superhero It's always been black superheroes. My first superhero I loved was meteor Man. It's not a comic book, it's a movie. Robert Townsend, so many famous black actors. But I was growing up as a kid. We were watching medior Man eighteen thousand times a day.

So then to that point, Aaron, what did you discover because media Man is that's a movie, you know, and Ashton, you know, you're kicking back with his pops watching something that probably was That movie was a little grown. It's a classic. It's a little grown for your five years old. What about you Aaron, How did you get into Like

where did you go to get them? Because yeah, like comic books was that was a white side of town errand and growing up for me, growing up in Birmingham, you did not go to the white side of town un Let's say, when classmate had a birthday or unless it was time to go Christmas shopping. That was literally another universe. Yeah, so where are you even finding the comic books too? Like who is your people? How did you get into this? You know, I have to give a lot of credit for a lot of my you know,

geekedom in fandom to my older brother Brian. You know, he was an avid collector, so he had a bunch of G. I. Joe comics. But it was when he was growing up and going away to you know, college and everything, he let me inherit his comic book collection, which had a lot of the nineteen seventies Batman comic books, you know what I mean, and that you know, vintage blue and gray jumpsuit and so you get a lot

of those like seventies and eighties Batman comics. Death in the Family where you see the second Robin passing away by the hands of the Joker, and so I was really fortunate to have an older brother who was into a lot of geek stuff, Star Wars, Batman, g I Joe, and so it was from inheriting his comics that I developed a joint love. In addition, you know, Ashton I as well was watching all those weekday cartoons in the afternoon, X Men and Batman. The animated series so really developed

and coalesced through. I mean, I think the animated series for Batman is one of the groundbreaking series of all time. And so it was really in that pocket that I really embraced, you know, my geeked them in a way and grew to have such a love affair with this art form. Now, Hebrew, you took it to another level because you started drawing and actually trying to do something with all this stuff, unlike these two shiftless need grows. How did representation you know, how did that inspire your work?

Like did you ever feel a moment and you know, and ash and Aaron feel free to jump in this as well. Was there ever a character where you're like, oh, damn, that's gonna be my through line or that's the one that that inspired me to go to the next level with this no man. You know, I'm probably a little older than you know, the brothers on the panel. And I think for me, it was like I came into it through my mom. My mom was just a reader. My mom would read everything, and she just wanted me

to be a reader. And I wouldn't connect with anything, you know, like I would pick up something started and not finished. And then she introduced me to comics books, but it was her way. So it was like Archie and all that shit that I excuse me, I don't know you okay, but but you know this stuff that again, it just was a little too white for me, you know, and and and it wasn't funny. And then I gravitated

more towards like X Men and all that stuff. And I think that, like, you know, my first introduction before comics or kind of maybe at the same time, to black heroes is a questionable black hero, which is Panther from ThunderCats. Yes, yeah, yes, Pantonic. They just always made him fix exactly that. And then he had nunchucks, you know what I mean, NIA just love nunchucks. Let's just do that. And it was you know, you know, Panther

was voiced by the grandfather on the Colomby show. Oh yes, no, ye sense yeah, And it was so you know, he had that deep black man like, you know, I feel like as my grandfather talking to me. So and that was his character in the show. He was like kind of voice of reason. He was, you know, like you being a pussy's like come on stop now, like yeah, let's stop, let's stop this ship. But um but no, but in our sincerity, Like that was sort of my

way in. And then it was like, you know, the eleven year old boy and me saw Storm and that was like, oh, okay, that's this is speaking to me on a few a few levels, right, it's not right. But you know when it came to my stuff, I think, you know, it wasn't. I think it's just a culmination of just like all these things that I've sort of ingested over the years, you know what I mean, like

these different different heroes, different characters. But you know, I think, man, we all were hooked on blonde haired, blue eye Superman for the longest time, right, because that's all we were fed. Yeah, you know, the closest I came to comic books. I

would read comic strips and the newspaper every day. I grew up in a newspaper house, so especially on Sundays, we passed the paper around the table and you just read all the different sections, and so, you know, to that point, Hebrew like I'm trying to think, and you know, Birmingham media, especially print media's hell of conservative back in those days. So I don't even think I saw the Boomdocks until late nineties. But to me, the blackest thing I saw in the newspaper was of the Phantom, and

he was vigilant. He was tan up shit. No. The only reason why I thought he was black because he was the Jungles all the time, and then the movie came out they had Billy's shout out black Panther for all. It was such a lack of black characters out there. I had to identify with Beasts from The X Man because he was blue at least, and so someone that you can still see yourself in, because you cann't really

see yourself in Cyclops. You cann't really even though you have Wolverine, he was dope, you couldn't see yourself in that. So at least with Beasts being blue, you can still kind of see it. A little bit. It's not until you get Bishop coming to the X Men two, where Bishop is just a strong, like six foot six black guy with like wavy jet black hair and had a Jerry curl. He had a Jerry Bishop looked like he was running back for the race. But but how did

that make you feel? He ruined Ashton, Like when you saw a brother that looked like your uncle from a family barbecue in a comic book, because I remember seeing for me it was Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas Ken, Griffith jen Those were the three black athletes that made me feel like, oh, he's doing especially both because he's from around the corner Birmingham suburb. So like I remember that feeling of man, I can do this because he looks like me. Did Was that? Was that your character Aaron

was Jerry curl man Bishop? Was that? I mean? Because at that point you're really grasping for some sort of representation. So you get that with Bishop, right, you have a who's not from the time period that the X Men are taking place, and he's from a dystopian future and he's coming back to right the wrongs that kind of led way to his horrible future, you know, where he isn't happening. So but Bishop was a little bit off

his rocker, you know what I mean. But it was okay because he was He was really cool and militaristic in a way. So I really gravitated to that he brought. I'll start with you on this question. Do you think that black cartoons outside the mainstream get enough credit or get enough attention, you know, like within the mainstream culture. How much do black cartoons get their props from the mainstreams the way that they deserve. Is the tide changing ish a little bit? Or is it still kind of

pick and shoes? I think it's picking shoes, man, Like I don't know any I mean, besides, like Boondocks, obviously that that had a real moment, right and it still does. I think it kind of reverberates, you know, when you get people, you know, sort of reposting memes and things like that, and how it sort of lived through. But you're talking the car we're really more so more so the TV show because that's what everybody, you know, like, that's where a lot of people found it, you know

what I mean? And so I think beyond that, man, there really hasn't been like we've only just been sidekicks, um, you know to the white characters, and I'm not you know, it's just you know, we get a proud family every now and then, you know, we have little blips on on the master there is it's it's here, it's out. Yeah, it's really and it's it's good. But again, like we don't you know, I think I feel like it's the it's the quota situation. It happens in Hollywood all the time.

I mean few years ago, you know when Hollywood uh found out that you know, black was cool, um again after Black Panther was profitable. There you go black, Yeah, exactly, we can make money off these folks. Um. You know. It was just that thing of like, let's retro fit uh this character who was probably a white it man, Let's make him black. But they don't really change anything except for just you know, replacing the actor or the person,

not necessarily reforming the character. And I feel like that happens in cartoons and animation all the time, where it's just like, you know, we have to feel a call, right we have how many black kids we have in this group? Oh shit, let's get a black kid in here. Real quick. You don't care, right, I mean, have y'all seen the new Velma TV show No yea yeah, where Shaggy's black black, don't smoke weed, he don't even get high. And I don't even know what kind of Shaggy that is.

You know, this is not Shaggy. I Like. It's like when it comes to like where you're talking about where they re skin white characters for put a black face on white characters. We need representation, but that it's it's the other side of that. It's like, yeah, I like Shaggy. I've been watching Scooby Doo. You know what's wild about that too, is that it's one of the things I feel like white people and black people both agree because black people want their own stories and white people don't

want to see their favorite characters, you know, dipp in chocolate. Yeah, I agree. Like, well, listen you say that, and then you'd be like, hey, you know, Jesus, that guy might have been you might have started off the original Superhero. Yeah. But then you even take something like say Miles Morality, where you have Spider Man into the Spidy verse, right, which was an animated film with a black spider Man who you know, hold Spider Verse or whatever, and it

did so well. There was there was rumbling for a quick minute, Oh I bet they should do a live action Miles Morales, and then it was like, nah, we're just gonna get out with Super one time. But I feel like that that, you know again, with that listen, Miles is one of my favorite characters in comics. Um and you know, I love the character, although they've never really given him to uh, you know, a decent black writer or group of black creators, which they should have.

But you know, with that movie, I think that movie worked because it was just a good movie, right, Like they they really honed in on making Miles feel authentic, his neighborhood feel felt authentic, his his parents, shit feels like Miles, Miles last name is Morales and his dad's last name, what's his dad's last name? Right? Like, that's that's some real shit, you know what I mean? Like that's not even his daddy. My last name, my dad

last name Lomax. They just having a rhyme. So I think I think they did a good job in bringing in some authenticity. I think that we will start to see more of that. But you know, again, it's like where you know, Hollywood's motivated by the dollars and as long as you know Peter Parker, like, we'll get the black Miles in real time at one point, but you know, white, white, white Spider Man is It's still you know, very very thankful. But after the break, I want to talk to you

a little bit more. I want to talk to all of you actually about how we can introduce new black characters, new black IP into the world of comic books and eventually matriculating into television and profitable movie franchises for you, Hebrew, but also the hurdles that you've dealt with and trying to break through new concepts and what that world is like. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the scenes. We are back. We are talking the world

of black superheroes. And while we only get the same couple of superheroes remix, even though we got a hold universe of black stories waiting in the queue to be told, one of our guests has been creating some of these characters. Now, Hebrew, walk us through this because I want to talk a little bit this break just about a lot of the existing black movie IP and how it came to actual fruition.

But I want to talk with you first just from the ideation of drawing a character, creating the character, creating a comic around the character, walk us through that journey of what that was like, Because are you writing, are you creating a character? Like like with television like Ashton I know you know this, Like with television, the trick is do you want to write and create a character that you know everybody will gravitate towards that They all like,

are you writing what you like? And then you're making people get on board with what you're into. Well, I think for me, my journey is really unique in the way that I didn't start out trying to create a comic or anything like that. You know, I come from the world of high art, right, so, like you know, paintings for galleries, museums, et cetera, and in do in that over the years and trying to find my voice,

I kind of accidentally landed on this idea. A lot of the work that I was doing early in my career, it had it had a lot of angst to it. You know, it was very pro black or maybe a little bit too much, you know, skewed a little too dark or heavy handed, so to speak. And I think, you know, within the gallery world, in that space, you kind of have to you know, you have to walk aline. You know, there's there's you have to be very clever

about how you say certain things. And so for me, it was like, you know, the advice that I got from a lot of my my peers was like, man, you know, you have to paint things that you know, that you're familiar with, the things that feel like you. And for me, growing up, you know, a self professor sort of black nerd on comics, cartoons, anime, all that shit,

trying to really figure out what that was. And it wasn't until you know a few years after college where I had found myself in that place that we all do where it's like, man, what's what's the next thing? And you know, I found a book on World War Two, just was thumbing through it and landed on the Tuskegee Airman.

And with Tuskegee Airman, you know, man, it was just it was like a lightning ball that hit me because it was like, man, nobody has really touched on these brothers from the standpoint of like like their journey was so powerful. It struck me in this way because the time in which they existed, the time in which they were charged with doing certain things, our world was a mess.

I mean, it's not that different from where it is now, but we're talking, we're talking World War, We're talking, you know, within America, Blacks, you know, treated significantly less than right. But then they're allowed and tasked to fly these planes and they do it successfully. And these brothers are buttoned up, and you know, they are the sort of personification of

what manhood is right and what heroism is. And so I found that and I just thought about, like, man, like what if there was like this, this, this, this, this character or these characters that exist at that time just kind of forgot about, right, Like it happens all the time, these cartoons that fall off the shelf and

never get seen. And so I created Flatboy, which became sort of my state boy ip, but as kind of a lark, like within the high art space, and just like creating this show, like presupposing that I found this this animation project that never that never saw the light of day, and I presented it like that to my audience and like some found footage. Yeah, so it was.

It was kind of you know, just bringing people in that way because I felt like that was the easiest way then, just to say, you know, hey, I created this thing whole claw, checked this out, um and it people started to bite, you know, folks come into the show. The response was great, But it wasn't just a response to like, you know, because there was no narrative behind it for real, for real, like there was no story through line or anything like that. But people started him

as a Tuskegee airman. Did you present him as black or was he its all goggled up and scarfed up, goggled, black faced little kid, you know, with or without superpowers. Take it, you know, take it with you will. But I think that people were allowed to read into it, and I think that there was sort of like this message behind it of empowerment that people really you know,

they they felt. And so as I started doing more and more shows, the expectation for more and more of these paintings, you know, grew, and people were coming to the shows looking for Flyboy. I had people making you know, like little Halloween costumes, just you know, cheap little aviator goggles, red red scarfs, et cetera, and so it just grew into a thing where you know, it wasn't it wasn't intended to be, you know, a thing that I continued on with. It was intended to just be this moment.

But as it started to grow and my understanding of it started to grow, I started to attach narrative to it because you know, nobody knew the origins or they weren't coming for that. They were just coming for the aesthetics and the messaging behind it. And so, you know, a few years back, I finally, uh, you know, created a comic. You know, it's my first run, and you know, like any junior, you know, novice to a thing, I pretty much wrote myself into a corner. By issue two.

I like, I like killed off one of the main characters by issue two, and I was like, oh shit, So I kind of had to like you know, wheel it back, but like let those things exist on an island by themselves and then sort of retool and and and recreate something. But again, all that to say that, you know, it wasn't me intending to make something, uh, to make this what it what it what it's become. It was sort of a happy accident. But you know, again through that has has bared you know, a lot

of really really really strong fruit. Okay, so then you create Flyboy, and then you're you're eventually going to be at a crossroads if you aren't already that a out of black content creators are going to pay it now where you have an idea and the tradeoff for exposure and money is new cooks get to come into kitchen and tinker with the season and on this dish that you've perfected up until this point. How difficult is it to try and navigate deciding on how to hold onto

your ip as things start to grow? Because when we talk about this idea that there's this backlog of all of these black ideas and black comic strip shows that are out there that deserve to be seen and deserve to be made in the movies. But how much of it is the studios and the labels and distribution networks creating an impossible contract that you just possibly can't agree to. And is that one of the hurdles that is keeping something like say Flyboy from truly expanding to something even

greater from flying? If you like, like like, how difficult is it to try and keep control of your eye because you're trying to grow this shit. But then to grow it, you got to give it to somebody that gets to go, I do whatever I want. If we can make flyboyd and give them a sister and Flyboy and tell her, let's make them thirty four fly man, No,

I mean, you know, it's it's it's a task. But I think for me, again, my situation is unique in the sense that like, this isn't a comic book, right, that's you're selling for five bucks, right, these are paintings that sell for you know, thousands of dollars. Right, you got to take your prices. Don't tell them your price. Collectibles a lot of dollars, but you know, these are these are collectibles that I've created, in statues that I've created that you know are now seen all around the world.

These are collectibles that you know, go on eBay for triple the price. You know, you're talking four or five thousand dollars for some plastic you know, figurines. And with that, you know, it kind of changes my narrative when coming into Hollywood because it's like the product is proven, and you know, I'm only doing this on a smaller level. When it comes to you know, I'm keeping it contained at a very limited number, but you know it's proven. Look these are the numbers here, and this is just

this is just me doing it. So you know, if we start to bring this thing out to the masses, you know it's going to obviously change and you're gonna you know, get more eyes around it, gain more fandom around it, and you know, obviously you know it it's able to grow, the IP grows, et cetera. But just me being able to do it on my own is already I think a lot more than most are able

to kind of come in the game with. Like most folks are coming in with the idea if it's a if it's a book, or if it's a script, you know, that's not as leverageable as you know, building out a world, doing you know, exhibitions. I did an experience mental exhibition in Chicago a few years ago called Nevermore Park where basically I created the world of Flyboy and you kind of walk through in this experience basically through an origin

story of this character. Right, And you know, we had like we had a couple hundred thousand visitors to it. I bought like like fifty thousand tickets for CPS students,

so they were able to kind of come through. You know, it really expanded you know, our again our fan base in a lot of ways, and also showed them sort of another side because they're only familiar with the paintings, and you know, again, having had all of that gives me a little bit more leveraged in those conversations with different studios, Aston Aaron, Why don't studios accept the fact that black superhero hit movies are not an anomaly? It irks me that the first Iron Man is credited with

being the beginning of the Marvel Surisa. It irks me when we all know the truth, yeah, is that it was Blade. We do we do now. They didn't connect Blade to none of the other ship and maybe that's why they try not to write it off. Blade had a budget of about forty forty five million, if I'm not mistaken, grossed about a hundred. It made about a hundred. Didn't know it did one thirty It did by one thirty one forty it made. It made its money back

and then another hundred million. Yeah, tify a sequel, right, two sequels? Yeah, it got it got sequels and a TV series which spiked cancer because they said they couldn't afford the special effects. That's a true story. So why don't these films like why what? Like, let's just talk about the erasure of Blade? Yeah, is there? Do you think? Do you even agree with that point? Aaron? Let's just start there. So I think we agree. I mean we can go a step further, just talk about the erasure

of Wesley Snipes. But I think, well, he would have paid his taxes. I mean, you know him and Ryan Reynolds didn't get along a diva. But the thing about that story, yeah, it was a lot of it was a lot of commotion apparently with that Blade Trinity production. But we have to take it back to the nineteen nineties and understand that before Blade the film, there isn't

a successful Marvel film adaptation. At that point. You have the Captain America film, which is from the nineteen nineties, which is it's not what we have with Chris Evans now, and then Punisher failed Dolph Lund Punisher cult classic but not a hit by any means. And then you have this buried Roger Corman Fantastic four film, um that wasn't even released the general public and you can only find

copies of it at Comic Con. And so Marvel was doing this thing of licensing out their characters, not building an overall universe, but lightning them out to twentieth century Fox, lightning them out to Colombian Pictures, Sony, and just seeing what it got. It wasn't as much of a creative powerhouse in the film game as it is today. And so you get this film called Blade, which is rated R, which is bloody violet vampire flick, action flick, and it

literally it becomes a hit. It becomes a hit because of the performance of Blade, because of this representation of this black superhero. But it also creates a door for us to get X Men in two thousand, for us to get Spider Man in two thousand and two, and all the various films that come and kind of give

us modern contemporary visual adaptations of superheroes on film. And so I just think it's just one of those things where people don't want to get black characters or black actors or performers the credit, and it's old fashioned racism. They're trying to qualify with different metrics and whatnot. But Blade was a hit to generate two more films in the film in a series adaptation, but again they want something more. But did they go some of the mother

black characters we got them? Like why didn't Marvel go digging the crates? Yeah, because a lot of those characters are whack as hell. Yeah, well he black Panther. Think about like the one of the hurdles had to overcome a black panther was Umbaku's character. He was just a racist gorilla in the comic books. He was just straight up a gorilla, like a monkey that was his power

monkey man or something like that. And they had to like actually content like make him a modern character for today and get rid of the racist trope that he was. So I'm sure they go and look through their their their a list of black characters, and half of them are just stereotypes, even with Black Panther. Black Panther, you know, was a character that was created by Jack Kirby. Rest in peace. Jack Kirby one of the greatest comic book

creators of all time. But you know, Jack Kirby's not a brother, and I'm pretty sure, like I don't I don't think Jack had many brothers on his roller decks, Like Hey man, I'm this character called the Black Panther, and let me get these notes of Also, can I just can I just shout this out. This is a very very problem moment in my life of nerd them. But my my paintings and my figures were in Wakanda forever hard. That's hard, and shout out for that. It

was like the biggest nerve moment. You know. It was all quiet in the theater and I saw my ship and I just let it. That's fire. You'd be like Joe, this movie the greatest movie in the world. I don't know, I love this movie. Then let's let's stay on that d to it for a second. Then how do you get that call? Do you get a call from like secret number unknown? And then hello, he is it Samuel L. Jackson with an eye passing shield? You get an how you doing? Brother? Ryan Coog has to be Nate more

somebody Nate. Yeah, I know I know Ryan through through Mike, right, So I got I got a chance to hang out on the first Black Panther, said Michael B. Jordan. Yeah, mid that was wild. Sorry, I was like Michael Jordan, you know Michael Jordan's I was like dud. I know, Mike, it's somebody. I'm a Mike. We all know, oh oh of b Jordan, of the b Jordan's um and so you know, I was able to kind of go you know,

that route. But again the space that I kind of moved maneuver in in terms of like you know, black visual artists, you know on the on the painting and sculpting side, and again playing multiple way, multiple hats. I'm one of few, so I think that you know, that kind of helps me maneuver and get to get to know some of these folks. And um, I saw Ryan Coogler in Atlanta when he first was coming back to start Black Panther too. We ran into each other the hotel and I was like, I was messing with it.

I was like trying to juice him for you know, some gossip. I needed to know what was what was going to happen, some script story, give me something. Of course he didn't give me shit, but it was cool. But I think that, like I would like to think that, you know, as Ryan is sculpting this and this is so you know, Black Panther is so cultural, right, It's not just about Wakanda, But like when you look at even Wakanda Forever, like there's lines about fenty beauty in there.

There's you know, it's it's black culture. It's not just this fake African culture. And so I think that, you know, they do such a good job of being fully immersive and aware of what's going on, you know, outside in this world that they bring into this Marvel world to make it feel real for us. And I think that you know, the character re Re being from Chicago, me being sort of, you know, Chicago's you know, you know, some of my characters sort of being the mascots in

certain instances for Chicago. I think that it was just, you know, it's one of those things that just really worked. And I'll be honest with you, and this is gonna sound like a flex, but you know, it takes so long to make these movies that I forgot they even asked. It was like four years ago. Yeah, oh my god, that's true. So you know, it was like when I watched the movie, You're in the movie and then I see my shit on her desk in the workshop, and then I see my shit in the wall. In a way,

I'm like, oh my god, men, you're different. You show me something I did four years ago. I'm like, I'm gonna need that. I'm gonna need a sease and desist. I need taken down. I need all that. After the break, I want to bring it home and talk about how we can expand black storytelling, you know, not only in comic books, but as it gets into television and what it is. What do you think could happen and what you think probably won't happen. I got a question for

all three of you after the break. This is beyond the scenes, beyond the scenes. This has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation about black comic books and black superheroes. And you know, whether we can get a couple of moments screen that aren't remixed versions of old nineteen forty two stereotype. I'm gonna write me a black super You're gonna be called jive turkey. You did, and every time he kills somebody, he goes your dig I like that. You tell me,

I bet you that shit get green lit. By what I'm saying now, I'll never be able to go back home to Birmingham again. Hero. No, I can't go to Essence fast after you. You dig I got another idea. It's like teen Titans, but they called the young Bloods. Yeah, okay, how honest? Can the black experience be infused into black superhero narratives? Do you think there is still space for expansion? Ashton? I mean, now do I think there? I know they're

space for expansion? Will you get made? Though? I man something to us, we gotta me it uth to us. We can't let white media or American media control the stories that we tell. I feel like one of my inspirations is Tony Morrison. I'm pretty sure she was like, I tell stories, I don't exclude black people. I mean I'll exclude white people. I tell stories from a Black experience and therefore black people. That's the kind of superhero story. I want to see a story that's truly all around

made for black people. It involves every aspect of Black culture, and it does not have to capitulate to modern mainstream America modern society have to, like do Why is it always black stories that have to do reach across the aisle so everybody else can feel seeing and accept it. We ain't never been Nobody reached across the side for us.

Why can't I talk? It revolves around the dollar. I think for me being able to spend a little time in you know, Hollywood and having all these conversations, right like, you know, studios are I mean, you know, these cats, they're not original, and it's the dollars the bottom line.

So I'm going to reach back in the catalog of things that we've done already that people are familiar with, because once upon a time it lived, and we're gonna redo that to death and then we ain't got nothing else, right, Hopefully we have our our Ryan Coogler's or our you know, our Jordan Peels. Those are the only brothers that are would be allowed to introduce something new at this moment,

right like, with a little bit of radicalness to it. Yes, approved state approve maybe maybe I think so, I mean, but yeah, and yeah, not to exclude Aba at all, I think she's absolutely one of those ones. But you know, it's gonna take someone of that ilk to get that

thing across. I think, like you look at the time in the nineties you talked about somebody mentioned, you know medior Man, right, Like, medior Man doesn't get made even as a comedy if Robert Townsend doesn't have all that good will that he's built up five Hollywood Hollywood shuff right, those relationships, Yeah, those relationships that he's built with all these phenomenal black comedians and talent where he can get you know, get those folks in at a price, so

he can make his movie at a price. Right, And again, it still kind of had to be you know, it's not to down Media Man, because I love Media Man, but it had to be a comedy, right, It had to be a comedy, and it definitely plays on those nineties tropes of like the bad neighborhood and the gangs,

gold laws, right, give me your purse. And unfortunately, the thing about Media Man, it was a box office flops, right, and so when that happens, Robert Townsend goes into Hollywood jail, can't direct for a little bit, or has to go make The Parenthood on television, which is a great series

as well. But so you don't really get that Meteor Man too, and so you know, and I think we kind of overlooked the importance of Black Panther being that it was Marvel's I think it was Marvel's either eighteenth or nineteen film at that point, and it was the first ever Marvel film to be nominated for Best Picture and so just Marvel gross to everything that came before, you know, and again that's a that's a one part in a series of these episodic films that people were

just Okay, we're doing this film to get to the next point. But Black Panther was a cultural moment, it was a pen it was a phenomenon really, and then Marvel was like, hey, yeah, hey, yeah, look at that, Look at what we did. And so it's kind of like, you know, you get those hits, but to try to get to that level and to maintain that, I feel

there's way more pressure on black creators. There's way more of a ce we told you that it wouldn't sell, and then that opportunity gets yanked away when so many other folks in Hollywood can take swings and miss but still be able to make other films. And so I think the playing field for us is very limited, and so you got to either get up and hit a

home or you might knock get that chance. Honestly. One of those challenges, though, Aaron, to what you're saying, even when you're talking about media man, is that you know, we haven't we as as as black folks and folks of color, Brian Lars haven't been taught or haven't been

welcomed into the conversation of science fiction. Right, And so you know, I if this hero is playing in theaters one through nine and Tyler Perry is playing in theater ten, listen, I mean seriously, like I'm off the streets with my lady. I'm going on a date. I'm not speaking just with myself,

but but I'm gonna go with Tyler Perry. That's a brand name for me, and it's something relatable, right, And I think that, like you know the fact that categorically we have not been put into science fiction films in that narrative forever, like we had, we'd always be one of us, right, Like you know, Billy Dee Wiis is the only nigga in space for how long? Right? When he finally let LaVar burden in space, he was blind, right,

he shout out in front of the show. So to the creators, to the black content creators and writers that are listening to us Hebrew, how do you allow your work to be the truest version of yourself? Like you have a coffee table book that you've just put together that's not a sale at all. Oh, I can already tell from the cover of that book, asking that's one of the books you put on the table and press went press. It could be the only It could be the only thing on the table too, next to a

glade candle. I don't know nothing about candles. Um As you look back at all of the work that you've done enough to put into a book, which is already a crazy accomplishment to think about that you've done enough that you went you know what, And I know that's

not even everything you're done, that's just the hits. How did you allow your art to be the truest version of yourself and not be influenced by what they might buy or what could How did you stay true to what you wanted to do versus what you thought people wanted to see. I think my artists sort of always been a bit of like my own diary, right. My art always reflects where I'm at, you know, emotionally, mentally, and so I think that, like you know, with art

starting out, there was not really a big risk. You know, you just do a thing. I'm working. I got two other jobs over here, making you know, horrible money, being a horrible employee, but it wasn't a risk to just go make some shit at night and paint and stay up all night and create some stuff. So I think that like starting out from an honest place and just

like I just need to express myself. You know, it's it's it's an easier upstart than you know, I didn't have to start out and from a place of like, I have to make things in order to pay the bills to survive, so I have to work according to everybody else's sort of level or expectation of what is good and what's cool. The thing that stuck with me a long time ago was most death said, I just

always wanted to grow up and make cool shit. And it's a very simple statement, but that's sort of how I lived in that sense of like, if I can always be honest with myself in my work, I'll be okay no matter what other work I have to do. Like I have my outlet, and my outlet has now become my career and my occupation. So you know, just one of those things that really kind of worked out. I'm lucky, how And I'll end with this question to

all of you. And now we've already kind of talked about whether or not we think that there will be more black superhero stories. I think that there will. I think, you know, whether or not they will be able to touch on all of the different intricacy that is the black experience across the diaspora. You know, that's depending on the producer and the level of trust the studio has in that director. Blah blah blah. But once these fucking shows are on the air, do you think they'll give

him time to find an audience? Bad? Damn. So there was a great show on c W calling Nay. It was about a black girl teenager and early team Yeah. Correct, And then Michael B. Jordan your excuse me, Mike he ep the show on Netflix, Raising, which was about a young a single mom raising a black boy with superpoles and how you navigate single mother, single parent with superpower like being able to turn the genre on its head a little bit. But neither one of those shows, Naomi

got a season. I think Raising Dion got two from Netflix if I'm not mistaken. So how do we get these places to still just give shows time to find their audience or is that just strictly money and we're screwed. I think that's just the old days. Man. This is this is all of the numbers game, you know, financial

and and you know viewership. I think it's just there's so many people buying for those spots and those slots, and you know, the turnaround is just a lot faster these days where it's not network, so they don't have to invest so much time and energy into a you know, look at Seinfeld Man, how many how many seasons did it take for seinfeld to actually pick up two? Maybe three? Right?

He would have been canceled. He That's my fear for the story of the black superhero is that even if these stories and the diverseness and the disk and the difference of all of the types of stories you want to tell, even if all that gets greenlit, once you're out there and you're on the playing field, are you going to get the support, Are you going to get

the advertising? You know, are you going to be given the runway you need to actually finda like if the CW won't give you a chance, and nobody home a black lightning and to be and that's it, like get out of here. Even we gotta put on another season of Flash. We just gotta we gotta leverage our white allies privilege. Taylor Swift, if you listen to this, I know what you did for ticket Master, do that for three.

But I think you speak to a really important point of like there's a pressure for the artists um to create that will have a long lasting effect and have success. And that's a hard place to come from from an artist like he mentioned, he you know, just created, you know what I mean, He was free to create. He wasn't caring about if this character ip that he created would one day you know, you know, connect with a

large He was just doing him. And so I think more initiatives and programs for up and coming black voices and artists, like the Milestone Initiative for Black Creative for Milestone Comics. And I mean we've already so much time without even bringing up Milestone Comics, which is basically, yeah, like formed by black creators with black characters, more of

an authentic voice. And so they actually developed not too long ago a pipeline program for aspiring black creatives who want to you know, create comic book heroes and superheroes and play in that world. And so again, like no one can forecast the future, especially when it comes to

media in particular. But what we can do is just develop, you know, opportunities to identify in spotlight some of those up and coming voices who can give us the next static shock, who can give us the next you know Icon or you know Rocket, someone like that, who were featured in milestone comics that gave nuance portrayals of blackness in comic books, right like they gave us not just this binary approach to life for black people, but so much more of it. Gave us that world building aspect

that you find a lot with Hebrews character Flyboy. You know, it's not just one character, it's a whole world of experiences that we're looking to build. And so if we can develop more programs like that and identify more up and coming voices, I think that's a that's a start. But like you said, you know, who knows when it comes to television and film, I mean, the bottom line is the dollar, and so we're always going to be fighting that. Well, I think that's it's a good place

to end. And also, see w I forgot that you gave us a lot of seasons of black lightning. I'm sorry for raising my voice with that aside. Thank you so much, Ashton Hebrew. Much respect to you. We look forward to seeing your work and Black Panther Part three and uh, I have my lawyers reach out to you. Some of you work in my movie Jib Turkey Turkey, Let's go he who might have a proof of concept Right now, I'm trying to you know, I'm trying to write myself in as a sidekick, so young Blood could

be a team of people. Are one person. I'll be here. And where can we get the book? He Brew? Where can people order the book? Your local bookstore, preferably you know people, they still they still exist, folks, Please patronize, you know, mom and pop bookshops. But other than that, the bald white Man spot mister Bezos can go to Amazon and pick one up right there, delivered right to you. You know, there's so many weird names of businesses in New York that I thought that was a real business.

I had to say that, all right, Oh man, it's a great discussion. That's all the time we have for today. Thank you all so much for going beyond the scenes with us. Give me some theme music. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show

wherever you get your our podcasts. Watch The Daily Show weeknights at eleven tenth Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Clubs. This has been a Comedy Central podcast