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Ford pays tribute to Black history, are shared present, and an equitable future for all built Ford Proud. Hey, I'm Roy Wood Jr. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the podcast that goes a little deeper into topics and segments that are originally on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Today we are discussing a hot topic. You know that Super Bowl is coming up. We are discussing racist sports team names,
especially the ones that are appropriating Native culture. So you know, the Washington football team changed their name is something different. So we're gonna break that down today. I have two guests to help me do that. The first one, this brother is a friend. This brother is a friend and been a fan of his work for a long long time. He's a sports journalist. He has a show coming to HBO a little later this spring that's gonna focus on the intersection of sports and race and gender and politics
and economics. The show was called Game Theory. His name is Bow Money Jones. Bow How you doing today, brother good man? How are you? You got a little energy and your tank to talk racism? And I know you've been talking a lot of black racism. Got they got cracking on February one, It's gonna be a doozy. Also joining us today is the founder and executive director of Illuminative.
It's a nonprofit organization that is focused on increasing Native and Indigenous visibility all across the spectrum, not just sports, but also entertainment, politics, all of that. She is a citizen of Pawny. Crystal Echo Hawk, Crystal Echo Hawk, I said it right the first time. I'm doing myself, Crystal, how are you doing today? I'm good, I'm good. I'm glad to be here with you guys. Thanks, thank you. So let's just dive right there in Crystal, I love
to start with you. You know, the Washington football team they changed their name to the Commander's Um. You know what, what is your feelings? Let's let's just start right here. The day that you found out that the Washington football team had decided to just drop the original name and go, hey, give us a couple of years, we'll figure it out, but for now we won't carry that name anymore. What
were your thoughts and feelings on that? I mean, it was really emotional, you know, I mean, you know, everybody kind of remembers back like Dan Snyder saying never you know, print that capital letters underscore this is never happening. Um. And you know, this has been a fight that's been happening for decades. I mean, starting back in the early sixties, right Suzanne Hard Joe really was one of the first person to really put this forward about you know, the
team dropping this dictionary define racial slur. So that gives you a sense of the arc of how how long and how many generations have been fighting this you know, vicious battle. I mean, we were told by polsters going back in you will never win this mascot battle. Ever,
Americans aren't behind Native people's on this. And so to see this moment fast forward to July, the announcement, it was it was incredibly emotional for for so many Native peoples across this country when we talk about ally ship, you know, and that announcement from you know, Washington football team owner Dan Snyder came, you know, on the back side of the Black Lives Matter movement, Beau Money, how much do you feel like that movement and I don't
want to say helped, but in terms of just collectively as a country, we just all just put our foot down and just went, yo, we're not taking this in a matter of fact, here's a couple other things that need to change. Matter of fact, Cleveland Indians, y'all change
y'all ship too. Can we talk a little bit Bow just about what are some of the ways you know, and Christal, I'd love to get an answer from you after Bow on ways that black people can be supportive of causes like this, or the ways that one group is able to draft off of another. Well, the way I think it helped on this one that I think was interesting when Washington made the decision to do this, and it was the same thing I felt about the
state flag in Mississippi. We wasn't even really talking about that right, like you know, like like it just it out of nowhere. The Washington football team just popped up. It was like, you know, what time for change? Really? After all this kicking and streaming at his footsnopping and everything else, you just popped up and just decided you were gonna do it. And I think that's something that happened with those names with regard to this was a
big part of the refusal to change these names. To me, it's has always been about white people just not letting nobody tell them what to do. Because it's not as though the Washington football team changed the name and a single solitary person whoever said I'll never watch them again if they change the name. Not a single one of them stopped. Right, They got all kinds of the reason not to watch that sorry football team. But every time somebody swears up and down they ain't never gonna go
back and ain't gonna do anything else. And one of these teams they change the name and the people stay right like there's nothing to be lost, there's no money to be lost. They just don't like being told what to do. We've seen this come up in all these different ways, and so I think after George Floyd it led to kind of a broad look for a lot of corporate entities that a lot of things that they did.
And I also think it was an opportunity for a lot of those entities to get out in front right, Like you can make the argument Mississippi, they took the flag down for? Somebody else did it for? And that was I thought, Yeah, But but that was what I thought was the most interesting part, because people have really, really, really been fighting for this for a very long time,
and they just turned a deaf ear to it. And then one day this dude who swore he'd never do it under a measure of duress from a number of angles, just said, here's what I'll do. I'll just go ahead and change. Then they didn't even have no name. That's how you know they didn't have a plan. He was just like, all right, something, gonna change the name. It was like Prince, we will be a symbol for a while. And I approved it, Like that was about like if you were wait until you got the perfect name, you
were never gonna do it. That was the one thing I gave him credit for. It's like he's gotta change what something else? What about nothing? Something else? Nothing works? Cool? Boom changed Crystal. This has always been an interesting I would say as a black person growing up in Alabama, racism is a very insular experience and that you were focused on your people and your struggling, your fight and
your fight. And it wasn't until I got to Tallahassee and I went to Florida and m and we will go over to Florida State to do a little bit of drinking. From time to time, but you know what, the folks over there and we will see members of the Seminole Nation protesting outside of Dope Campbell Stadium. And that was really one of the first times, you know, and you're talking to seventeen year old while I was really being open to everything else that there things that
I never thought about. And you know, you know that I came up in the nineties timahawk chop all of that nonsense. And so how can other groups, how can other people of color that are not part of your community make sure that we're supportive in a way that doesn't erase your fight or step in front of your fight, because that's the thing that black football money know what I'm talking about when you go to a black protests
would be too many white people. Wait a minute, white lady, let me let me stem in front of you know, same thing in a Native protest. Right, Well, I might want to go back to something about Money said and like really recognize I mean like this, you know, this fight has been going for decades, right, and I think that's the majority majority Americans just thought this was because of George Floyd that this happened. No, you know, decades long, but it was unfortunately his death, right, it just it
launched this perfect storm that that it all sudden. You remember the brands, Anthemima, everything started following, and I'll never forget the day on not Blackout Tuesday, and the team was like, worse, we stand against systemic racism, and it was a oct and then Congresswoman Holland that called the team out and it just launched a wave in right then if that simultaneously there was a Native organization that was started organizing those six billion dollars worth of investors,
right that came in and started really like that was the nail in it that you know, Snyder knew, you know, that's it under dressed, right, This was not that they were willing to do it. So I just want to like, you know, just it's George Floyd, you know on so many levels, and we you know, it's just has such a special place in our hearts as Native peoples and like are his family, and just like really thinking about
that moment. But I think it just said this moment where increasingly, I think hopefully as people of color were starting to see each other more and about where our struggles connect, you know, around this, and I think that was just like the key thing is like really understanding since more is this conversation about systemic racism and other in the ways that it's beginning to impact all of us.
And I think it's really been an opportunity to start to educate, you know, lots of allies and people of color that the R word is the end word to us, right, And then I think there's like such a deep psychology in this country about playing Indian in the conquest, like that even when we shout from the rooftops, this is racist, we don't want this anymore, people like, well, you don't even know your own mind. We're honoring you, like you know,
And I've watched yesterday with the Washington announcement. They released a video yesterday they said the R word probably two dozen times in their new video announcing the new name, and it was like, really this dog whistle, And I just thought, you know what, what if they had said the N word twenty times in that same video, nobody would have stood for it. But yeah, yesterday, you know, it was just showing that the team, I don't think it's clearly not taking this seriously. They have not learned
their lessons. If that was part of their rollout, and so I think it's you know, it's frustrating, but I do feel like we've really begun to make headway and where people are beginning to really understand this issue and where Native peoples are coming from. More so to that point, Crystal Beaumani, just to show how a hit or the curve you've been on talking about this problem in profession of sports, what was that five six years ago where you wore the Caucasian shirt April of Yeah, the Cleveland's
team before they changed their name to the Guardians. You somehow, I don't know where you procured a whitewashed face of Cleveland's mascot and you had on a shirt to head the Cleveland Caucasians, and boy, they was mad at you. So we need to address the elephant in the room. Your T shirt is dominating the social media conversation right now amongst our viewers. What motivated you to wear? It was clean? I got they double what The fact that it was clean was a good start. The other part
is I really liked the shirt. I think it's funny. It's like it's just like the Cleveland Indian shirt, like exactly the same as the Cleveland Indian shirt, which just one small change. Yeah, that's it. This is the same thing that goes on with the logo for the Cleveland Indians, right, So like to have a problem with the logo of this would be to have a problem with the Indians. But if you're quiet about the Indians and now you've got something to say about my shirt, I think it
started for introspection. Who's brilliant? What point were you because you weren't even on the show that day to talk about baseball. I was telling about some other stuff. I wasn't even trying to prove no point though, Like that's the thing about it that was so interesting to me because I had that shirt for a long time, Like I've worn it in public. Like it wasn't like I have a shirt for this very occasion, right, I was like, Oh,
this shirt's funny. The point to me was obvious, Like I don't think I was because people have been saying these things so long. I didn't think I was offering anything deep or profound, right, Like I wasn't hitting anybody with anything that they hadn't heard before. To me, it was just a funny shirt, that was all it is. Like I am absolutely not a hero on this because I did not do the math and realized what it
might turn into when people saw it. And so as much as we talk about people being mad about it, kind of right, like, I didn't have any problems at work, nobody gave. The only talk they had with me was like, look, it's it's the shirt is dominating the show and that's
a problem. So if you could zip your hoodie up around it, which I thought was a reason, but I thought that was a reasonable thing to say, Like, if you're producing a television show and one thing is taken away from the actual television show, then okay, I've done this for an hour, right, Like, I get it. I'm not gonna fight you about it. And so I went ahead and did that. But it was a lot of people, rather than saying they were mad, a lot of I'm
not mad. You're not owning me. You thought you were going to make me mad, but no, no, no, no, I'm not over here mad. I'm like, bro, I wouldn't even think about you. So like maybe they were mad. But one thing I felt like I learned in that is we give too much country to the loudest, angriest people.
Because overwhelmingly what I got in response to that will support, like the significant majority of the people that I heard back from, like WHOA, this is so cool, WHOA, this is so cool, WHOA, so thanks for standing, like all that kind of stuff. I think the negative stuff was actually a minority and probably a small part of it. Like I think there was actually a bit more popular support behind this because in the end, people just don't
really care like that that was the problem. Is that having a native mascot, they didn't even give that any thought, Like to them, it's not an overt oppressive act. It's just like, oh, we want to make this the name of our team. And if they didn't do that, they name it after an animal, And yeah, it's really problematic that they see those two things is being the same.
But I don't think that Americans have a real passionate about it, Like this is much more about the kind of passive racism that exists and that people just left slide because it's what they've always done. Like the football team in Washington depart that nobody talks about it is
they are historically sorry. Like if you're my age, you remember when they won those three Super Bowls but that's basically the only time they've been good, and they were the longest segregated franchise in the NFL and subsequently one of the worst franchise in the NFL for basically up until like nineteen seventy they had two good coaches. So my point being, this name is actually attached to far more losing than it was ever attached to winning. They
were just holding on because they got for bid. They let anybody else tell them what to do. I wonder what it would be like that if you put that Caucasians T shirt on right now again, because it is next level now from when the first one you did that first time to now and where people that guy who makes those shirts has a picture of me up
in his house. Um because that show. I was all yeah, because that showed that that was all and aired it from six to ten Eastern, and so he wakes up at like seven o'clock or seven thirty and he's like, huh, let me go see if we got any orders in overnight. Whoa, And it just completely like and I sur promised. I really didn't think that this was going to happen like that.
I was just sitting there blissfully unaware, and then it was like, oh, this is a thing so crystal to Money's point of just how conversations grow and the ground swell starts. It may the German nation may have been one thing, but it blows up into something else. Talk to us a little bit about Illuminatives and what you all do, because this is a much bigger discussion than sports. When we're talking about discrimination in the perpetuation of stereotypes
against the natives. What does your company do to fight some of those stereotypes. Just talk a little bit about Illuminative for yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, Illuminative is founded on research, right, and I think it was just you know, I've been an organizer, activist my whole life, you know, working in Indian country, and I think just throughout life and talking to so many different Native people, like we constantly feel like invisible, right, We're not showing
up anywhere. People aren't taken us seriously, and if we you know, when we come out on anything, it's like we're reduced to a character caricature. So we did this research to really look at, you know, what are the dominant perceptions and narratives that Americans have about Native people, why do they have these perceptions and how do they
affect the way that Native peoples are treated? And so what we found is that nearly eight percent of Americans don't know anything about us, right, And depending on where you live in the country, there are pockets of this country that aren't even sure if we exist anymore, because if you're not in proximity to a reservation, right, then
you're just and then we're not representative media. Our representation and media is less than point four percent, right, and nine of schools in this country up until very recently, you know, don't teach about in the American's past nineteen hundred. So you literally Americans almost conditioned right coming out of
K through twelve. And then when if you don't see us in the media, you don't see us in TV and film, that we don't we cease to exist certainly as a contemporary people, right, we exist in the past, and what little representation that kind of eats through is typically pre nineteen hundred if it's TV and film, you know, and people can literally have a very hard time conceiving of Native people's in a contemporary context. So as we
began to learn that and really unpack that. We realized, you know, working with a lot of social psychologists and people looking at certain things, that it affects the way that we're treated. It really perpetuates discrimination and racism against Native people to think that we don't exist, we're out of sight, out of mind, and in the few things that kind of conditioned to you know, inform the way people think about us are things like racist sports mascots.
Like Nielsen did a poll last year, fifty percent of the fans polled said that the only time they see anything related to Native people's is if they're watching, you know, one of these teams with their mascots, right, and that's people in red face turkey feathers act in a fool that has nothing to do with really Native cultures and Native people. So, you know, we realized, you know, with
this research that we representation truly matters. That is not just a catchphrase, right, because the way that we show up and presented, you know, in the world really conditions the way that we're treated, and not just in day to day life, the way the courts treat us, Congress treats us, you know, the way there our children are treated in school, so really illuminative fights to you know, fights against systemic racism and fights against the erasure. Right.
We fight against these toxic stereotypes and false narratives, and we really work to amplify who Native people's are today and our issues, our points of view and in key spaces like pop culture, in media and also politics. Yeah, and I'm trying to think both, you know, and granted this is an Alabama school system pre CRT. Native representation in history is Thanksgiving and cowboys and Indians, and I think after that, it's just a mystery. What happens to
natives after that? Like there's not much. And then in TV it was always you're the sidekick or you're the magical Yota type. Go here and here's some wisdom. Now go forward and go do the thing that you need to do. Yeah, like the Native homie and the crew. It just doesn't come up on a lot of television show, you know what I mean, like like like and that
and that. But that's the thing that you know, when you talk about the representation, like you really get to a point on this stuff for somebody's just there and that part of them is not a plot device, you know, it's not like something we're gonna go to for a joke all the time. And I think it's one of those things that's easy for people to not think of.
And I think the point you made especially depending upon what part of the country that you live in where you're just not going to encounter native people, um, And it can be what part of like a county that you live in, Like I think of a place like Paul b County of Florida, for example, that as you're getting towards the beach, you have no idea that the west side of that county is a lot more Native than you would have thought of, right, And the world's
kind of don't meet and don't come together. And that's a significant part I think of the problem that you have is that it is very easy to think of Native Americans or Native people. Excuse me, it's just like history because like you talked about in school. I know it came up in our Texas history class and seventh grade, you know, because they had somebody was here right like they they ain't gotten past the point acting like they showed up and it was like, wow, look at it.
Pick it whatever whatever desk you want, right like it wasn't one of those situations, right, Like they at least acknowledged that part, and then you get to trail of tears and they're like done with that, like when you I'm willing to bet that if you ask most people about what they learned in history, it is that the trail of tears is where it stops. But think about, like metaphorically, what that means. We are saying, we got them up out of here and there's nothing left to
discuss exactly. After the break, I want to talk a little bit more about the Shington football team and the Cleveland Guardians and what they got right and wrong in their transitions, and also Christal, I want to talk to you about some of these other teams that are still holding it down Dan Snyder style and saying we ain't never changing racism today, racism tomorrow, racism forever. I'm not sure if that's how they said it, but that's basically
you broke out a George Wallace quote. Bro. I would love to see somebody like do a series, because every southern state has their George Wallace is like it's a different person in everyone, like the one standout racist right right right, Georgia has less thematics. I mean, hell of a competition in Mississippi. I don't know who ultimately becomes the chappion in that battle. Royal Texas like that to Texas. They got one. We had a Royal rubble it. This
is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Roses are red. She shot six times and violets are blue. It's almost like her dream man came into her life. Are you looking for love? I do anything for us and a little murder too. She would kill her own daughters to get away with it. He has a weapon, dropped the gun In honor of Valentine's Day. Listen to Crazy and Love the entire month of February on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What can I say? Love made me crazy? Did you know that on the day Doctor King was shot, the all black security detail normally assigned to him was called off. They're the ones who would not allow him to stay at any hotel with balconies. That security union was reassigned. I was a man there, and did you know that on the day Doctor King was shot, two black fireman stationed across the street and one black police detective who is surveiling king. We're all taken off the job. What
was the emergency that caused usually moved? Did you ever ask what this was all about? And then this is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now listen on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Crystal, I'll start with you, how do you feel about the new name? Commanders to the army and we're in judge. You know, the same army that told them Indians didn't get on out of here? What did they get right? What did they get wrong?
During this supposed two year learning period and reflection and studying and speaking with members of your community. Well, I have to say I'm enjoying all the memes. I mean, it's just been hilarious, like gut laughs, right, and people's reactions to the name, And you know, I'm kind of like whatever I mean at this point. You know, I think we were just so focused on the team not having coming up with a name that had anything to do with Native people's right. So I mean, honestly, I
could care less. I mean, that's for the Washington bands and everyone else. Delitigate and laugh at you know, the commandoes. I mean, everybody was enjoying all the things yesterday. What did they get right? I mean, I think they definitely did go talk to Native people, right, like dozens, you know, a couple dozen Native peoples, and I think they did
focus groups. The team met with us last spring, right, um, and you know, I think that they I felt like they heard us right and just kind of people, you know, and even knowing where some of the options they were looking at around wolves and different things. I mean, they really did have some conversations and I felt like they listened right, just stay away from a bunch of things, and like, you know, so whatever direction they ended up with this military thing, I mean, that's a whole X
level discussion. Um, you know, right, I mean, but I mean I think finally, you know, I can tell you up until the last minute, Native peoples were holding their breasts because we just don't trust them, right, like what are they going to pull? And um, so I think we were relieved it had nothing to do with us. But again, watching the rollout yesterday and seeing that video, I had a former reporter send it to me last night,
like fit to be tied. I mean, it just was this dog whistle and it was kind of this wink wink, nudge nudge to the fans around that name. And it's just like really showed that that, you know, internally that organization, they still don't get it. They still don't get that this was like the most disgusting racist term ever in the harm that they created. And so you know, they're on my call list today to kind of like, you know, on the one hand, you're telling Native people's list, but
here's your actions. Again, there's just clearly some things and that inside that franchise that have not changed, and you know, and I think that they got a lot more to do. They haven't apologized, and if you actually look at so much of the announced and roll out, there's really no recognition, right they sort of dance around why they had to actually change the name. It's like, you know, now like oh, we wanted to do this almost right and kind of embracing it. And I think you look at all the
Native leaders commenting yesterday saying this is not enough. Where's our apology, where's the apology to the activists that they harassed and targeted, like Susanne Hardjoe and Amanda black Horse, Right, I mean disgusting, really vile, vicious behavior that you know, they were like death threats against some of these activists, you know, And what are they going to do that
ninety years of racism that they perpetuated, like overnight, everything's okay. No, And I think that's where you know, Native People's Indian Country is like, we're going to still work to hold this team accountable. Well, I think in line with that, I think that there's something fundamental to like this team has historically believed. And this goes back to the nineteen
fifties and sixties with their segregation. They have historically believed that their fans like little racism, right, Like the argument against integrating the team for George Preston Marshall was that our fans don't want black players on our team. Right. They have made this guess, right, And I always wondered anybody who say they never watched that team again, Uh, if they ever had black people, then I think it's seventeen years later, Doug Williams wins the Super Bowl with them,
and I bet they were all sitting there watching. But they operate on this assumption that people like this, like they believe that their fans think this is all better with the little racism. Again, it's short. Seems that whenever they change these things, the world keeps on spinning and
nobody does anything. And so I've always wondered, like when they decided they're gonna come up with a new name of what they were going to do, if they did, in part, feel like they had to give a little nudge to be like, don't worry, We're still We're still with you, right, Like, fundamentally the audience for them is white people, and I feel like race so often in this country, as is discussed by white people between white people, it's just kind of something to talk about, like, you know,
you root for this team. I root for this team, and in the end we go home and we're all still friends. We just root for different teams because it don't mean the same thing to them, Like ultimately, when it comes down to it, it's not it doesn't have the same gravity. It's not as serious, you know when it comes in. And so that to me, I thought was a huge part of the Washington story that gets lost is a lot of this is on Snyder as it was on Cook before him, as it was on
the Marshall's before them. But at some point, as fans, you gotta stand up and just kind of be like, yo, why do y'all think we saw racist? Or just say that you are? But they definitely think that you are. And if I say somebody these people being racist, everybody want to call march about it. These teams tell you that they think you're racist, and you're like a little bit.
Maybe was there the same feeling crystal of insincere sincerity from the Cleveland Guardians when they changed their name because they got roasted to because everybody's like gout and named the team after two statues that look over the traffic kind of smelt like they didn't have a plan either, bo Um. You know, I mean I think they had a really different process, right, you know again, I think then to Washington, I mean again, you know, it's a
whole other thing. I mean, I think, you know, for the for the for Native people's, particularly people living in a Cleveland area. I mean, it was just a long, hard fought battle and they were just relieved again, you know,
to finally that the name was getting away from it. Um. But it was a much more closed process um, you know, but I mean I just think there's it's just not the same level of vitriol, right, and just I mean they were never as nasty as the Washington team and their leadership, right, So I think it's just, you know, it's kind of looked at in a different way. I
don't think with the same kind of distrust. And you know, and I think today looking you know, reading through all the social media around Indian country, people are pissed at the team, you know. I mean, even though we're relieved, it's just still like so evident that I don't think that they've really learned. And why do you put it, right,
I mean, it's that's their legacy. And if you watch the video, their legacy is nothing but showing the R word, and that is I mean, it was really like, wow, it was a wink wink, you know, non to that. And it's just it's you know, the NFL, we know,
has a little bit of a racism problem. And there's the understatement because I'm curious about this with Cleveland because to me, you know, I'm speaking from obviously a bit of a comfortable distance, and like when I hear Indian, I hear Indian like I hear colored right, like it's an antiquity that's born in a bunch of stuff, but not a slur in the same way as we talk
about these other things. The thing with me with them was always wah Who, which, by the way, they had If you don't know, they have evolved, there's been various forms of way Who. This form of wah who that
the last worth of Chief wa Who. The mascot they had is actually progressively less offensive than like the two or three InCAR nations that had come up previous, like they had held onto that was always the one where I'm like, you got this thing on the head, you can't do that, like like that was always the most Yeah,
I was always the most indefensible part. And then that last year when they looked like they might almost went the World Series, they had one of the old timers from the nine forty eight World Series team come back and he had one of the antiquated Cleveland Chief Waho, and I was floored. It was the mascot as much as anything else that they held on people like, look, can you move off from this? Look? Can you move off from this? Can you move off from this? And
at points teams. It seemed at points that there would be times the leadership was like, yeah, we can do this because they're gonna sell new stuff. They were just so afraid of these angry fans and what in the world are these fans gonna do? And I'm like, do you know anything about Cleveland sports fans? Do you see the losers? They have attached themselves too for decades and you think they go quit you over this? Are you serious?
But they just refused to let go of that part, and that to me was just it was just always so striking that nothing was quite like that, because I feel like, and I could be wrong here, but I feel like the best way to get people to not pay that much attention to your native mascot, it's if your uniforms are attractive. So the Chicago Blackhawks managed to dodge this in a bit of a unique way. They have very striking jerseys. Like I'm not saying that they're
not problematic. I'm saying visually, they are striking. The Braids have had those uniforms that they've been wearing now since seven. You can't think of very many teams that have had uniforms the same without any fundamental change to them that long, like they found a design and they stuck with it. The Chiefs same way somehow. I granted their names are a little different, it's not you know, it's not the same as the R word and all of these things,
But those are the ones that get to skate. If we don't think your gear is hot, we're telling you that you've got to get this stuff out of here, you know, I think that's part of it, right, But I mean, just one point I want to make, Like I think a lot of times what people don't understand, and I'm glad you bring this up, is it's not always about the name, right. I mean, like the R word, that's like that was the next level, right, people like chiefs,
braves like black hawks. Come on, what's Native people's problems here? And it is it's about the imagery, right, But it's also about the racist sports fan behavior that starts spinning out from it. The red face right, red face the equivalent to blackface right, the turkey feathers, the drum, the tomahawk chop, all these things that mimic and mock Native people. That has nothing to do with anything related to traditional
Native culture. So it's really this ecosystem that radiates out, even from a name that might not on face value look like it's offensive, it's it's it's every the culture that radiates out, or the way that rival fans will use hate speech right when they're cheering against those teams, that ends up being hate, racist speech against Native Americans.
And Chris, I'll tell you something I didn't know. I did not realize until very recently that like sports teams that are the Warriors, that that was basically a euphemism for previous Native names. Like I was on a literal league team when I was nine years old that was called Warriors, and he hit me one day. It was navy blue with red letters across. We were the Cleveland Indians. I had no idea the Golden State Warriors in basketball.
I had no idea this one. They were selling the old gear on the website and I looked at it and you would be shocked if you looked at what it was like. It was just terribly savage Native imagery um from like the nineteen fifties. I had no idea that this that they ever had this era because I
did not think of Warriors in that way. And What was so funny about it was my producer on my podcast pointed it out to me and I said wow, and we talked about it on the podcast and sent a link out a right after you talk to me about it, I sent a link out on Twitter that was like, wow, I had no idea of this. Within I want to say, a half hour, it was down from the NBA store, like nobody had noticed it was.
It was just literally nobody noticed it was there. And I was the one person to be like, yo, this is bananas, and then we but the link was gone, like they might still sell some of that stuff, but right fast that link was gone because they had just been skating and I had no clue that that was where all the stor So then that brings me to
this last question before we go to the break. Where does economics fit into this resistance to change, both because a lot of teams don't want to change because they think that the fans are gonna be angry. Like right now, the chiefs are starting to get a little bit of pressure, and they said, like, I think, like back we were meeting with members of that community and we are trying to make sure and figure out a way and we are not racist. Just give us a little time to
figure it out. But they haven't done anything since any of those conversations. How much does the economic model of sports play into these teams believing that if they change, the fans will leave and we's gonna be broke. Yeah, I don't think it's economics. I think it's just white supremacy, to be perfectly honest, like all the things that the NFL expected us to put up with at every turn, and they think that's gonna be the one to make
people suddenly stop coming to watch these games. But that make no sense, right Like they if they have told us over and over again that they believe that no matter what we do, don't you worry that people gonna show up? As long as you're saying the stars Bank of Battle before the game and shows a lood of the military, um, then people gonna come to the games. So they don't think really that this is gonna stop.
They might be mad for a little while, but they got no problem doing things that made people mad economically my thought, and this is clear unless you were like the Green Bay Packers or the Dallas Cowboys, and you have this brand that is just immutable and so strong, and that if you change it, it really like fundamentally alters the experience that people have with Yeah, like if you want of those otherwise you just changed the name and sell most stuff and get more bread and then
bring the other stuff back into the throatback if you want to, and figure out some way to do that. Like I've always thought that the economics would encourage a change in this, and now I just think that they ain't about to let nobody tell them what to do. And what I thought was the most instructive thing about the period after George Floyd. Look how much work we
got done when we stopped caring about mad people. Right, it was a month and change where you didn't worry about if it made Wifeles mad, and we got a lot done. And they didn't even actually get that mad. I mean that was in January six. But other than that, but that was didn't didn't get bad or right. Maybe they was right and there weren't no place else for them to go, but they but they laid low for for the summer of twit twity. We was body and they was like let him, let let them get it out.
Let CHRISTI why do fans hold onto this, Why isn't there something else that they could find that's less racist, that represents their town. What does it say about people when they have an inability to just let go of something like in Cleveland, they're still artists that sell chief wa who stuff. They I'm painting what I want to paint. You ain't gonna tell me what to do. What does that say about our society when people think that the identity of the team belongs to them and not to
your people. I mean, it just goes to show how like again going back into the psychology of this country and like the deep like master meta narratives that are around this, It's like there's something about playing Native. It's just such like it feels like an entitlement and right, and it's like it's about anything goes. It doesn't matter what Native people say we do. You can come take our land, you can take our culture, you can take
our women, you can take everything. And that is like a deeply embedded part of this nationalistic identity and white supremacy. It is. I mean, so when you talk to any activist Native activists that is working on these issues, at some point you have received death threats. You've received threats of violence, and it's just like, what, this is a
damned sports team. This is like seriously, You're like, I got a threat this morning on Instagram and it's like, what is it about this dude in Kansas that he's like, you know, losing his mind about this name change? And I think it really speaks to the heart of white supremacy, this white nationalist identity that unfortunately it's just getting fed and and really getting bigger and bigger, and it's just, um, you know, it's it's stunning to me, right, but it is.
It's a deep psychology of white supremacy, of which has a lot to do about conquering Native people's and taking um. That is just you know, it's it's what we're fighting
against constantly. After the break, Crystal, I want to talk with you more about your research and the things that you all have planned for the future and around the corner and bo money, Um, I want to talk with you a little bit about the same thing, because you know, you have for a long time, on a number of various platforms, been trying to wield that sledge ham of justice and you already did. I didn't even know that story. I didn't know you cut off somebody's money on the
NBA dot com merch story. It was gold. So I know that there's a lot that you have to do as a member of the media and bringing these topics to light. And I think that YouTube there's a synergy there, and I want to talk about what that struggle is will wrap up on the other side of the break.
This is beyond the scenes. Hi. My name is Cassidy Zachary and I am April Callaghan, and we are fashion historian and co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed the History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the significance of dress from throughout his street and around the world. And we are so excited to bring you a brand new season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and explain
the history of everything from courses to blue jeans. Dressed the History of Fashion is available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. The Black Effect presents I didn't know, maybe you didn't either, but the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.
Oh no, is royalty, not despair. Beat out here and every day in February, I will give you a black history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either. It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black Effect Podcast Network, our Heart radio app, Apple Podcast, or just wherever you get your podcast from, we have had a very spirited conversation about native imagery in professional sports.
Crystal is here and her company is Illuminative, and your company, there's a lot of you use you do what people need not because it's not enough to just go something racist. You got to have data. You've got to have numbers. You've got to have statistics because then people go, Okay, now you tell intric See I didn't believe you before from just being a member of that community. You got data. Talk to us a little bit about the future of
your company and how you all are measuring. How do you measure what's wrong and then how do you measure when you think it's changing? You know, what's the future look like for your company? Yeah? Well, I mean I think when we think about the future of eliminated, we're just thinking about the future of our Native people's right,
and it's about how we're building power through representations. So you know, despite everything that we've talked about about Washington, right, that's a victory for Native people's at the end of the day, right as we start knocking these things down. But at the same time, like so much of the work that we have done is really to advocate, for example, in entertainment and media right about the need for more Native stories and TV and film, more representation across all
facets of of media, UM. And so that's a really big focal point of our organizing our advocacy, both like very outward facing UM, but also behind the scenes, right, doing a lot of work inside the industry and really forging partnerships with studios so that we can see you know, last year we had our first too ever Native American
television shows. It's crazy it took this long to kind of hit that mark, um, but they and they were huge successes, right, So really looking at how we get more of those you know, stories made and working with studios in that way, I mean, I think it's also a lot of advocacy across all facets of media. Right. We still don't have any Native American commentators on any of the major you know, cable networks, you know, major
media outlets. So it's really again looking at that advocacy and creating opportunities, you know, for Native people's Native voices, um in Native stories so that more people can see us and hear us and understand that Native people have a lot to say. We're doing a lot, we are contributing a lot um and it's really shifting that narrative so that you know, Americans can really see who we are today and and the ways that we're leading and
innovating across this country. What I what I love about shows like Rutherford Falls and Reservation Dogs, which are I'm just some of those are the two shows that we're talking about, is that it doesn't it's just people existing and there's a plot and there's a story and it's within the world that you may or may not know something about, but it doesn't come across this This is our story, and it's time that you know exactly what and it's it's beautiful because it's an easier entry point
for people to absorb stuff that they might reject because, let's be real, when you're trying to inform ignorant people, you've got a high divide them into dog food, which bomani. That's something that you are very often, very able to do that. The Caucasian shirt is a perfect example of that. Like, you didn't come on to take a stand. I was just I'm just wanting a shirt. I thought this was funny. It's irony yet, but everybody knows about this, right, you
know what's happening. Right, So, when you approach racial injustice in sports, not in sports, but as a sports as primarily a sports to journalist, though, I think HBO gonna forced you got that box a little bit and let you start diving. I mean I've been I've been out that thing for like twenty but I feel you. How do you how do you approach covering racial justice in sports?
Let's just keep in sports since that's with this episode is well, I don't think I have a strategy as much as the one thing I know is just don't make it personal. You'd be amazed the wide birth that you receive if you don't make it personal, right, Like that's once once you start and and part of why I'm not inclined to make it but so personal is you actually, in many cases minimize the overall point when you make it personal. Because there are individuals that exists
who certainly are racist, there's no question about that. Once you start focusing on whether or not or calling that person race is the discussion then becomes whether or not that person and is racist, And that term racist is used by different people in different ways. There's like a
very basic word that you can use. But see, once you start talking about it as it evolves individuals, then you start getting a standard that is beyond even a reasonable doubt, right, like people gonna require you to prove that to the ninety nine percent of confidence on that, and everything you say then ultimately winds up being derailed. Our biggest problem is not individuals. Our biggest problems systems.
Our biggest problem are the things that happened that you can't just point a finger at one person and say, hey, he's the one who did this. So for me talking about systems and the things there, that isn't difficult, and it's not hard to get the room, you know, for people to be willing to listen, Like I find that people are willing to listen to me go kind of hard, which is a bit surprising, but I think the reason
is you just kind of got it. Like for me, my brother told me something very early on in my career that has guided me. And he was like, a good argument is not one that a genius cannot refute. It is one a fool cannot refute. So I am going to talk to you right where you are. I'm gonna come to directly where you are, and as direct of fashion as possible, as polite of fashion as possible also, but as direct fashion as possible. And then dare you to tell me? To show me? Show me a lot.
And by and large, people have like been willing. I have been surprised over the course of the last twenty years how much listening to me people are willing to do on these matters. Some of them a lost causes, you know, but you can't worry about them. And I think that's the biggest part of it. The people you ain't never go win over the people you can be
concerned with. So as we wrap up here a crystal and we look ahead, there are a lot of franchises that, for the time being, seem inclined to keep their problematic names. Are there things that the casual sports fan, what can we do to help bring light to this? And I'm talking bigger than just black people in other communities of color. I'm just talking about if I'm a fan of the Braves or the Chicago black Hawks, what can I do as a casual fan to try and bring light to
these types of injustices. I mean, one, lean in and get educated, right because I think what we find. You know, I'm going back to my original statistic, eight percent of people know very little about Native Americans. So one, it's just we see that there's still a lot of education and to understand why these things are harmful and it's not always just the name, it's all the things associated with it. And then I think making our voices heard.
And I'll tell you this, you know, this last you know, World Series, I was stunned by how many sports reporters actually we're like, oh, we get this now, and started really challenging the team and its ownership and the MLB commissioner like it was a it was a new dawn this last this last round in terms of coverage and the level of conversation you know about the history of Indian removal, you know, and in genocide and and you know, Georgia and all the things like it really kind of
brought it in. So I think people, you know, social media is a powerful tool, and when people start turning up the volume, you lean in and start making your voices heard. The teams are tracking this stuff, right, and to really be part and parcel of joining that movement, because that's how we started getting it done with Washington and these other ones, right, they felt the pressure. So
it's just really people getting educated. It's engaging in those conversations with your friends and your family and then really being a part of turning up the volume and putting the pressure on these teams to make the change. And I think the World Series is a perfect storm too.
It helps that the commissioner of Major League Baseball Cornell degree or not, does not appear to be the brightest man in the world because they took that work that they took that All Star Game out of Atlanta because of the voting rights struff that was going on there. And then when he got asked about that team name, he basically pulled the states rights argument and said that this is a local matter and not something for us
to discuss. And we all like so was that voting rights bill, how amy, But you packed up and moved because Delta and all of them told you were not on board with this, and then you left. The hypocrisy was laid so bare at that point that I think it did bring on a whole new challenge, and I hope something that people learn from that one also is never believe the natives that the team tells you speak
for every other native. Like Dan Snyder had his own call natives whenever something with popas just about to ask television, and the Braves got their on call natives and they have a casino deal with them, right, because the Braves are corporate Cherokee. Yeah right, And so like if they are like, no, now, come listen to them. If they not, like, go listen to all of them, they're like, no, listen to these ones right here standing next to me. It's probably a cord to have a black friend and this
is my native friends. Yes, yes, exactly exactly. Speed from Eastern man got put on the blast across Indian country for what he pulled down there. I saw a man the black horse once. I think I was on outside of the line. I don't I don't know if I was on. I was not on. I may have just been watching, but she was all with some whoever Daniel Snyder's on called Native was at that time, but just flat out asked him are you being paid for this?
Which I don't recall him answering, what's that conversation? Like internally, I know black folks, we normally don't get into it publicly because we call it family business. But what is that internal strife? Is there a lot of that strife within the Native community of like, hey, could you shut the hell up? We're trying to get the name changed
over here. Oh, I mean, you know this time with what happened at the series, and I mean he got put on blast publicly, the tribe did, and I was I mean, like I think there was a statement came out of National Congress American Indians saying things like Natives for higher I mean the people gloves came off because it was so crazy that a tribe in the neighboring states said no, no, no, this is we're going to sign off on this. It's not The tomahawk chop is
not traditional to Eastern Band Cherokee or anybody else. This is an invention of Hollywood, right, and people's fantasies of playing Native. So I think this is really people put the tribe Eastern Cherokee and whatever, the smattering of natives that they found in the Atlanta area that you do not get to make that decision for all of us and for our kids. Um and so people are people are over it. And I can tell you like more and more, especially if these younger generations of Natives are
coming up, they're done. They're done with these mascots and stuff. It's very generational. The older generationals where you know, my my dad, and my grandparents and everybody above were cool with it. These younger generations they're done. And so that's that's the shift. Well, I wish that we had more time to really dig into this, but I feel like we've got a lot accomplished today. I cannot thank you
all enough for going beyond the scenes with me. But Monty Jones, the show is Game Theory, and that's premiering on HBO later this spring, maybe early summer. I do not know your production schedule, but I do know it is coming very very soon. And Krista echo Hawk, thank you so much. Thank you for all the work that you're doing with Illuminative as well to bring about change in this country and the elimination of the tomahawk chop as well. Thank you all for going beyond the scenes
with me. Listen to the daily show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joe Piazza, host of the podcast Under the Influence. If you tuned into our last season, you know that the world of mom influencers on Instagram
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