A Conversation About Natural Black Hair, Identity, and Discrimination - Beyond the Scenes

writers and experts. This episode is a conversation about natural black hair, identity and discrimination, featuring correspondent Dulce Sloan, writer Josh Johnson, and producer Chelsea Williamson. If you like it, don't miss new episodes. They're out every Tuesday, and be sure to tell a friend. Available on the I Heart

Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes a little defer into segments and topics that originally aired on The Daily Show. This is what this podcast is like, right, all right, you're pregnant, you're having a baby. You go to have the baby, right, and the doctor be like, surprised you got a baby. Then the doctor

be like, it's another baby in there. It's a little smaller than the first baby, but we think you'll still love it the same. That's pretty much what this podcast is. Today, we've got a topic that was featured in the Dull Saying segment of The Daily Show. This segment is hosted by a Daily Show corresponded, dul Say Sloan. In this episode of dul Saying, she discussed the history of natural black hair. That's right, y'all. They got beauty of topics too.

Throw the clip. Black hair is like blue. White people are scared of it, but for some reason they're obsessed with it. And for most of America's history, white people have done whatever they can to stop black boats and wearing our hair. And it's natural glory, and our hair has a lot of natural glory. When we lived in the Motherland, hair was so important that you could tell a family's name and social status just by their hairstyle. Basically, your hair was how you told all your business. And

this is still true today. Show me a black man's ways and I'll tell you if he drives the bins or runs after the plus. But when the slave masters came, they cut off our hair as a way to controller and a race who we work. And you know how some people cut off their hair after a bad breakup. It was like that, except they didn't give us blond high so to walk me through this topic of natural black hair because I do not have a lot of hair,

so I can't be talking about no hair journey. I'm joined by Dulce Sloan and a couple of other producers and writers from the Daily Show. First up, Well, first off, Dulceay, how are you doing to date? I'm well, Fran, how is you friend? Friends? Also joining us Daily Show Deep by producer Chelsea Williamson and Daily Show writer Josh Johnson. Chelsea, Josh, welcome to be on the scenes. How's it going? How you doing? Hey? Roy? Well? Thank you Chelsea for sounding

excited about talking about black women's hair. This damn misogynists over there. This is I talk. I didn't made to do what they think bad. Are you excited black women hair? You know? This is actually why it's hard for me to find love because no one believes that's a whole lot. You got a whole girlfriend. You don't been one before years? Shut up, Joshed, I said, find but you found it? Yeah, yeah, but before that. This sounds like a topic for a

separate podcast. Still say, before we get into this conversation about natural hair and everything that goes within that journey, first and foremost, just break down the term natural hair and what it means to be natural. So the term natural hair literally just refers to hair as it how it grows out of black people's heads. So just our natural curly hair. So hair that's not been processed by chemicals. Um, so, it hasn't been relaxed, it hasn't been jerry curled, it

hasn't been as curled. Ain't nobody putting no conk in it? But now, and I'm just asking as a layman and also a stupid man. Uh, does heat when you apply heat to hair? Is that still technically natural hair? That's just styled natural hair? It's styled because with hair that's been straightened, once you wash you the curls back up again. Okay, got you? Now? First off, how long have you all

been natural? Let's just start there, like, and was there anything in particular that made the two of you just go, you know what? Fuck it? I'm done? I would ask you, Josh, but I know sometimes you just put a pick in your hand, let the afro grow. But Chelsea will start with you walk us through the journey to you deciding to go natural. Yeah, so I had kind of reached a point in college where I was getting the relaxers UM and then I was getting my hair straightened every

two weeks. And in college you don't have a lot of money and that is expensive to do UM. And it didn't make sense anymore either for me because like my hair is like fine, so like the relaxers and my hair were not jiving very well. So I went natural and I transitioned, which is like basically I kept the same length of hair for like three issue years and they were just cutting it. The relaxed ends off like over a period about like three years, like I said,

And they'll say when when when? When? When was your Is it called an awakening? What's it called when you decide? You know what different a decision because it's like, so there's two ways to do it. I so I have been natural at multiple times, but because like my mother did my hair, because you know, she went to beauty school and all of that, So my mother relaxed my hair and my mother would do my hair. So like in middle school, I just always had braids. So braids

are considered like a natural hair style. But I remember asking my mother. I was like, Mama, should go natural. She's like, no, you always need a perm But that was because she didn't think that I would do the work needed to maintain natural hair. But in like two thousand nine, I was like, I'm good with this because like my mama told me, like she stopped because only two thousand and six she was like, I'm not gonna

be doing your hair anymore. And I was like, no one agreed to that, and so I was having it. Now go to like the Dominicans, but go get my hair done. And I was like, I'm kind of over this because also it's like, I like like big hair, and so I was like, well, wait a minute, I grow big hair. So because I was just tired of just seeing what I looked like relaxed, and I'm just like, well,

let's see what all this works. So I grew my hair out for a year because my hair with girls, so I would have to get a relax for like every eight weeks because I would truly have two different textures of hair, and my hair would not sit down because it was curls with flat of hair on the end of it. So I grew my hair for a year. I had like so ends. I had braids like tree braids and all kinds of stuff, and then I did

what's all the big chop? And so after growing it out for a year, I went to my mom's house and I was like, cut it, and you're gonna cry because when she used to trim my ends as a kid, I used to ball and my hair was getting shorter, and she's like, they're gonna cry, and I was like, chop it off. Cut it. She cut it all off.

It's like, how do you feel? I was like, yeah, I felt pretty because I wanted to see what my hair looked like because I had done so much work trying to not have not have my hair on my head like it grows out of my head. So I was excited to see what it looked like and what I look like as an adult and a styled afro, because I've never had a styled afro before. You know

what's interesting about that? You know, as it compares to black men, and you can correct me from wrong, ladies, but it seems like because women have so many different alterations of yourself, that making the decision to go no as my hair grows is what I will choose to style and deal with. Josh, were you making decisions because you have a throw? Now? At what point did racism and scrimination, if at all, play a role in deciding to finally wear a fro or keep you from having

a frow for a while. I think that for the most part, what ended up happening is that my hair I didn't fully understand it, and so I used to when I lived in Chicago, I would just cut my own hair. I would just shave my own hair. I tried to give myself a line up, but it didn't work, and it looked like the bat symbol. It looked like that sambole every single time. And here's the thing, my natural hair. My natural hair looks like the bat symbol.

So then people wouldn't even see the work that they actually thought that I made it the ears on purpose, and I did. It's just that that's how my hair grows. So then eventually I was like, hey, I want to see what my hair looks like, something similar to what dual Site is talking about, where I was like, let me, let me just grow it out, because I grew it out in high school and I went to this like, obviously you can't call it all white because I was there,

but I went to a dominantly white Catholic school. Uh, And I think that there was something about my hair that was very proud of, especially my junior senior year that I wore and it was it was so different because not only was I different, but now I had a hairstyle that was very different, and I, as opposed to thinking it would make me insecure feel weird about, I was actually very proud of it. And it got to the point where other people thought it was as

cool as I thought it was. And I only ended up um shaving it when I moved Chicago because I just couldn't take care of it or anything. And then when I grew it out again this time as an adult, I faced a different set of problems because at first, like when I do my hair, when I shave it, there's the bat symbol, which is a problem. But then when I when I grow my hair out, there are

a lot of other problems that begin. So you know, duels Say has been a true angel and friend and helped me out a lot in this journey, taught taught me things that didn't know that probably I should have known. I I probably looked like a person undercover trying to get black hair secrets from a black woman because because I would ask her things sometimes where she was always she was never this this is the thing, this is

why dult Say is a true friend. She never looked at me like, so, who would you like steal this hair from? Like like like this, clearly is it your heads or growing it out of for you to be asking me all these questions. So she was always very patient,

helpful and everything. And then I think it became as I started to do more comedy and m and get a little bit more known, it became synonymous with me, like just that that extra circle around the circle that is my head and that that's like how people saw me from far away. That's like how people came to

know me. The fact that my hair has changed. Now I'm really fine about who my true friends are because a lot of people don't recognize my face and we're not talking about a beard situation where no one's seen my face before my face looks like it looked I had an afro, and now I just have these twists that people are like, what it I got a mask on top of that too, you got a mask, you look different, My bad. I walked into the cellar no mask.

So the comedy club where you work regularly. Yeah, there were some people who were like, hey, we uh was it? Oh hey, I'm gonna be to see your vaccination card. I was like, yeah, you've seen it. I'm a I'm a comic, Josh. I'm like, yeah, this isn't a face off situation, like it's still my same head. And so that that now I've I've moved into the twist scenario. I've moved into the because duels say, actually, over the holiday,

did did a whole little twist up for me? You know we we we celebrated the first day of kwanza I mean twisting his hair after washing and deep conditioning because if Dave, because Christmas Day, I detangled his hair. Then he came back over and I washed in deep conditioned and twisted his hair on the first day of quarts. Why you'll never offer none of that ship for me. I know my hair shortly. Are you trying to get

me an edge up or something? I got clippers, Hey man, I know to do no clippers if it's a bunch of and the things that made me the most mad about twisting up Josh's hair is Josh has the hair that I wish I had. Like this, Nick has so much hair. I'm just sitting there doing his hair, going I'll kill you. I was so jealous the entire time I was doing with his hair, Like the twist that I had just in the back of his head was the number of twists I get on my whole head,

whole ass hair envy. So Chelsea, the Deep Dive department, I've tried to explain it to people that the job of Deep Dive as a research unit is to go and find the groceries and then the writers in the correspondence decide what meal to a symbol with the groceries that you go and find. So when you made the decision to pitch this, dy'll say in segment on natural hair, what were some of the things that you discovered that you didn't know about the journey of black women in

natural hair? What are some of the things you want to you you discovered uncovered You know, y'all know the hell I'm trying to say, shit now, what what were some of the things you uncovered in your research? And then after that they'll say, I want to hear from you on some of the things you wish could have

stayed in the piece. One of the things that I didn't know was how many like legal cases specifically existed, especially in the eighties, like we did go over the Bow deeric ten moment where she wore breeds and all of a sudden it was like a craze all over

the US. And you know, there was actually a specific legal case where a black woman then was fired by her employer for wearing braid and it was because the employer was like, this is trendy, you know, like this you just saw ten and that's why you did it. And she's like, no, this is a cultural hairstyle and she lost the case. UM. So I feel like I didn't know like all the details of the legality, Like, um, I wasn't as aware of that. So it was good

to learn about that side of things. And then other than that, I think just how far it goes into dress and workplace codes, Like it's like you know about it, and you know that is the reason that black women, um and black men did not grow out our hair for so many years was because of dress and workplace

in societal codes. But just like hearing about like you know, the military especially banning black hair specifically in natural hairstyles and all of that, you know it, but it's like to actually like read it and see the cases themselves. It's it's always a little bit different. And so then based on all of that, dull say, what were the

parts that were important to you? What were the points that you like they got to know this because we always go into segments like all right, we know it's a lot of groceries, we can't put everything into the meal, but what are the things that had to be in there for you? I think the great thing is is like the things that were included in the piece was

everything that I wanted to see. But I think something that would have been interesting to talk about that we never really talked about is that when I started going natural, a lot of the slick comments that I got were from older black women about me going natural, Like I would just be out in some women would just walk past me like, oh, your hair is nappy, and I'm like, bitch, do you know how long it took me to comb

this out? I did a twist out, I combed it like it's like this hair is style, this hair is done, but we don't talk about how because that hair, our natural hair, was seen as unkept and nappy and unprofessional. That permeated through Black culture to the point that you know, we didn't wear I have natural into like the seventies, and then after the seventies, everybody was relaxed again, and then we did it again in the nineties when the

pro Black movement, and then we relaxed again. And then now we've come back to because after the nineties we've kind of been able to kind of maintain having natural hair. But like in the eighties, you really didn't see he saw Alfred waterd maybe he was a sister soldier immediately if you had he who called you Antelo Davis? No, No, what called me a Davis? Okay, it wasn't a bief thing.

I was gonna make a totally different point, but yeah, to what you're saying, I feel like, because our hair was seeing as this unkempt or it had to be conformed in a way to make it comfortable for other people, no matter how uncomfortable it was for us. That now you see crazy hairstyles that I actually think are super progressive. I feel like the weekend has the things for black hair that we're never gonna have to go back like that.

The weekend has made no no, The weekend has made such an insane move that the Overton window has shifted so much that now everything is is dope them locks where everybody just looks like a lego or palm tree, right, the palm trees first time played Old Man or the um like the Mexican the candy, the Spanish candy where the tamarin comes out the peal. That's what that looks like. And I was like, oh, so we're just honestly, I'm glad we're free, uh to be able to walk out

here like Jim Henson characters. But sometimes it's like, okay, sir, you know what, I don't get it. And also there's a lot of things I just don't get and I'm just like, this isn't for me, you know, this is for the children. I'm glad they're this free, But your

dreads look nuts. And that's my only thing where I'm just like, it can be wild, but I just wanted to look right like it's like but I can say that it's just the person's interpretation because we've all seen certain like certain sets of locks and been like that's just the wilderness or people's afros where just like or sometimes you know, when Josh would get the sleep box right, Yeah,

but here's the thing, here's the thing. Not only did I love by short it was short, I actually felt like it looked like a plan because when it was, when it was short, it was like so tight in my sleep. But okay, so for anyone listening that doesn't know what a sleep boxes, um, I when I was initially growing my afro out, I so I have night terrors, right, and so I would go to bed and I would do a lot of rolling around because I'm in my

in my dreams fighting for my life. And when I woke up, I would have essentially a nice, smooth, overpressed look that was completely even. It was like a miracle. It was like completely even. And once my hair got long enough, it no longer looked like a plant or anything. But the begin sleep box was amazing. Say, listen, you know we were never on board. Um, but because the thing is, if he tried to do it, it wouldn't

have made sense. But what you needed was those two two good hours on this side and then two good hours on the back and then two more hours on the other side, and so you just had that pressure kind of so it looks like a box haircut. And so sometimes people come in. But you know, I loved how because Josh, didn't your mom call you? Will I ain't one day. Look, I've had a lot of hair and things happening in my life. Okay, So this is

my thing. The reason I bring up the weekend, the reason that I think all this is good stuff is because to me, that's what freedom looks like. Freedom is the freedom to maybe not make the best choices. That's

real freedom. I mean that is And it's like so the fact that we don't ever talk about how like the things that we say to each other because like I knew growing up, I couldn't walk around be a little girl at the afro because aunties would not allow with like that hair is not getting pressed, it's not getting relaxed. Like the only time is a little black girl that your hair can be really natural is if your mother's putting it in like barretts and little braids

and stuff like that. You were never walking around with an afra ever, because you're walking around with an Afra was like, Oh, your mama didn't have time to do your hair. Why are you out here looking like the After the break, I want to talk a little bit more about that Bo Derek situation and the kind of modern version of it with regards to the Kardashians, and once you choose to go on the natural hair journey, I need to know how do you learn, Where do

you learn, who teaches you, who becomes your natural hair? Yoda, We'll do that beyond the scenes. Chelsea, you just told us excuse me Daily show Deep Die produced Chelsea Williamson. Uh, you just spoke in the previous break about a black woman who lost her discrimination case with her employer because she had on rose like Bo Derek, which surely she only did because of both Derek. Can we talk about how ridiculous that is and also like, wasn't that like

more of a present day version of that with the Kardashians. Yeah, I mean cultural appropriation of black hairstyles is nothing new, um in the least, and I feel like it is something that we've been seeing for years and years and years, and most recently through the Kardashians. Like I remember when Kim first started wearing those French braids, and they started

calling them boxer braids, but actually they were boxed. It was just like they were taking and making all these new words for these things that like black women specifically have been doing for like hundreds thousands of years. Hey guys, this is my mound of hair. You mean afro, no mound of hair. But the thing is like, and I'm not always here to defend because I mean, I love them, nobody says. But the thing that was like because remember as a little girl, warning like the French braids because

a little girls have French braids. And then my mother kept putting corn rows in my hair and it was like two French braids look was great. Two corn rows does not look cute, right, especially it doesn't get the same effect right unless it gonna be huge. And so because like two corn rows is like this is utilitarian, like I've got this is I'm getting hair out the way because like I currently have on a wig, my

hair is in two corn rows going underneath it. I only learned how a corn row decently during lockdown, and it was only to get my hair under a wig because my protective style in the wintertime, because winter, cold weather is too much for an afrol, it's wig. So when I started seeing because the reason it's not I'm calling box of braids because those UFC girls, we're wearing them to keep their hair out of their face because

I guess a ponytail wasn't enough, right. And then all of these white girls started wearing the box they call the boxer braids, and we were just like, they're just corn rows. And then it became a trend. So the Kardashians started wearing it, and they're like, oh my god, it's cultural appropriation. Wait wait, why wouldn't we yelling at them UFC girls because they started it, Because that's where

the stupid term came from. Because if we would have started with the Kardashians, they would have been called boxer braids. That would have been called like, you know, hitting something else. You you know what I'm saying, Like Chris Jenner would have coined the term for this. You know, the term came from girls in the UFC, So no one was saying that it was cultural appropriation on that side. But now we're yelling at the Kardashians were doing copro appropriate.

I think the issue is that I don't think any of the UFC fighters knew that they were getting boxer braid. They were just like, just braik your hair, so don't so you don't get knocked out. And then it was called boxer braids by the people, the Zeitgeists at large,

if you will. So, I guess the thing is that the Kardashians, because they've always aligned themselves so close to black culture, anything that they do that dabbles in black culture, I think there's an expectation or demand from black people that the Kardashians have a knowledge of what it is they're doing, and I think a lot of the time they don't. But when those girls who did UFC, they also grew up in America, so they know what corn

rows look like. Because if the option was they could have just got French braids, because the only difference between a French braid and a corn row is how you turn your hands. It's the same technique, except for a corn row you pull their hair under the braid and for a French bread you pull the hair over the bread.

It's the same thing. Because I literally did like a when commusion places in a communication class in college, we had to do a like a speech where we had to like teach how to do something, and that's what I taught was that this is a corn row, this is a French braid. And there are black girls and white girls in classes, like wait a minute, we've been doing the same thing the whole time, Like basically, but those girls knew they were getting corn rows, so they

should have been getting heat too. Everybody should have. We're mad, We're mad. Why we picking and choose? It the only difference. The only thing I'll say about the pick and Choose that his people came for Kim because she cannot fight. I think that a lot of people wanted to say something to those two girls, but they were like, hey, she has covered in blood. She clearly doesn't have operate at the same level. Like maybe We've got to let

this one go. Like a lot of those a lot of those UFC fighters have partners, and I'm sure what the partners wanted to be. There might be there might be a partner that just do saw the whole thing covers like baby, you may want to call them coral rolls because never mind, you know what I'm gonna get, tell me what to do. I'm a fighter. I'm gonna go ahead and get dinner ready. Uh, don't don't worry

about what I said. So Chelsea to Do says point about learning corn rows basically as an essential tool for the creative evolution of her career. What was your journey like in learning how to do different natural hairstyles and maintain? Like where did you learn? Like, once you make the decision all right, I'm gonna be natural, where do most people will go to learn how to do that to the maximum? I feel Josh. I would ask you, Josh, but you go to Dolcy's house, so I'm not gonna

ask you. I definitely learned on YouTube University what it was called YouTube University. Yes, I learned on YouTube University, and um, you know, I was just looking up various like natural hair YouTube videos like that was like, I want to say, the like mid twenty tens is like the peak of like natural hair YouTube. Um so I was just in honestly with like everybody else and all the natural hair blogs like so there was just a lot of ways to kind of figure it out. But

I tried everything. Most of it didn't work, honestly, Like I remember when everybody's like, oh you gotta put the oil in the gel and then the and all this stuff that was taking like twenty steps, and like I had to go through all of that putting like I remember, you know, or at one point putting rice water in your air's supposed to help, and like you know, henna and rice water, putting henna on your hair, like just all this kind of stuff that like it makes it

stronger and it works so well for natural hair and dada, da dada. I went through all of that. Um. Only more recently have I started like following natural hair stylus on Twitter, and I've like got down pat Like in the past, like six to eight months would I say, Like now I'm like, okay, I have a generally like

three step rule. It's pretty quick and like I don't take all this time because it really used to be a wash day for me and I was tired of it, like I was like, nobody has time for this, and now I'm like it's like an hour and a half. I'm in and out like because I was like I

can't do this. I think you get to a point though, And it's also been taught to a lot of girls because we do you learn from a lot of people from the internet is you think you have to do like these ten to twenty steps to get your hair to look a certain way, and it's like you really don't. Honestly, for most of us, it's best to keep it simple, but you do have to kind of have that trial

and tribulate. Like the trial in tribulation of it. I feel like every natural hair girl, like every girl's natural hair, has gone through it where you were just at one point doing a bunch of things and it was taking you seven hours to do your hair. Well. The other thing is just like one. That's where like hair type started being such a big deal because it's like my mother and I have completely different hair types. So my mother's hair is a much looser curl than mine, So

my mother's hair grows differently then my hair. So I had to because like when Josh came over, when I deep conditioned his hair, I made a conditioner, because when I deep conditioned my hair, I make the conditioner. And so like a party, yeah was doing it. I thought she was cooking for a second, like like like somebody condition would be smelling good dog because she smells edible. She had the egg and she had the avocado and stuff. I was like, oh, I didn't I didn't know it

was gonna be breakfast too. This is amazing. It was an egg and avocado and uh olive oil because I didn't have enough. I didn't have enough my sweet almond oil, and I blend it up and then if it's I make enough where I'm gonna put it in the fridge because this is all I'll take some of like my uh regular like the store bought deep conditioner because there's like preservatives and chemicals in it, and I'll mix some of that in sometimes if I'm making a big batch,

so it'll stay in the fridge. Because if you just put olive oil and the egg, you just basically fancy ass mayonnaise. That's not gonna last a month. So but in something like the last time I did it, I took like a whole leaf of alow blended that bitch up too, because like people are like making their own gel, so you have to customize it based on the texture

of the hair, is what you're saying. It's not even just a texture of the hair, it's you know, like Josh has low porosity hair, meaning that Josh's hair hair, hair is ash. His hair is always dry. My hair is high perox, so it takes Josh's hair a long time to get wet and then it drives very quick. My hair gets wet quickly and does it takes longer to dry, So you have to know when you're conditioning.

It's like people kept talking about the lock method, the lock method, so it's like use like a liquid and then an oil and then a cream. And then I remember going, well, oil seals the hair, so if you're putting a cream on after you seal the hair, then you're just wasting products making it's not making sense. And then every and I remember, I remember when everybody was putting always like there was like everybody was putting coconut oil on everything, was putting on our skin, we was

putting in our hair. And it's like you have to learn that putting oil on something doesn't moisturize it. Putting oil on something makes it oily. So people are putting coconut oil on dry hair and then they just had oily dry hair. So then we had to go through this whole cycle with a coconut oil. And then everyone was like, Okay, we should be doing this like this so it was like, okay, it was moisturizing it. So there's every couple of years there's a trend. It's a trend.

But the reason that there's a trend in the way we treat our hair is because for so long we weren't allowed to wear our hair as a crew out of our head. So we literally lost a connection of how to take care of our hair because for how long up until like the seventies they brought us over here sixteen nineteen. From sixteen nineteenth to the nineteen seventies,

we weren't doing our own hair. We were braking it up and putting it underneath something you weren't, you know, or like if you look at like the early nineteen hundreds, they were styling their hair to look like European hairstyles, so you were still putting heat on it. You know, they can tell like the Marcel iron in hot comb and all the other stuff. We were putting heat on our hair to be able to do here European hairstyles and black men even though they were their hair quote

unquote natural, they still had to keep it cut low. Ye, they had to keep it cut low. It was, and so it wasn't like black men were walking around with big gass afros in nineteen thirty five. Now it was putting parts in it and the thirties looking like Cad

Galloway and ship Concident. So with the waves after the break, I want to expand on that point, don't say, because I want to talk about the responsibility that we have to one another as a black community to foster positive relationships with our natural hair and what the resources are. And we need to talk about the legislation side of this and the Crown Act and exactly what that is. And I'm gonna tell you about the terrible haircut I almost got in Canada, but we were wanta talk about hairstyles.

We regret this. This is beyond the scenes, guess Canada. I was up there. Let's talk about the Crown Act. Let's talk about the legal side of change on this issue with black hair, and then let's talk about what we could be doing as a black people's in the community. Chelsea break down the Crown Act for us. Yeah. So the Crown Act was founded and it stands for creating

a respectful and open world for natural hair. Um if I'm not mistaken, and it basically was created to fight these legal battles and to try and make sure I'm sorry them letters may as something Yeah, any as I thought was just always triving it wrong and it would continue, are all right, we did our research, no problem. But yeah, it's created to fight against these um discriminatory like practices and codes that are existing in laws and in workplaces

and dress codes. Um. And I think it's been legalized in quite a few states, but not every state. It's legal to like where your natural hair as is, which is crazy to say out loud, but it's true. Um. So that's what the Crown Act is seeking to do. It's like seeking to actually go and make sure that natural hair is legal in every single state because that

should be a no brainer. The only time that that seems like a bad idea to me is when I see these football players with the long wrong locks because I was watching some football game and I saw a lock on the field. They deliberately target your locks and then we'll take it off the field like a trophy like the predator. Because they said it's not a part of because like grabbing the locks isn't concluded like grabbing the uniform, right, Yeah, it's it's all part of your

physical being. I can legally grab that. If you're a football player, wouldn't you tuck your locks into the back of the because then how would you not know I'm a bad motherfucker or not? Yeah? Yeah, some of them do it. Oh got you got you that don't want a bald spot? They do it. But you're gonna leave with a plug. Have a plug. Do they make the guys with just like long hair, do they make them tuck their hair like Detroit Pamelou used to tuck his hair. I feel Paula Mallo, I feel like his I feel

like his hair flowed from under his hair. But like that's he's on the NFL players with a with a shampoo commercial, right, he had a head and shoulders at Well, that's some gorgeous man, though. Is he tonguing someone? Yeah? Somewhere over there, and I ain't gonna guess. I ain't trying to get canceled. He from over there. I'm making people with one of them. I'm making humans with that.

I got that right there. So we can legislate some level of acceptance, But what are things that we could be doing as a people to create more acceptance within our community. When it comes to supporting people on the natural hair journey, are we not supporting? I mean, embrace everything that you see because I feel like this is what's happening when you're white. You can have like literally the same hair or somebody else minus one thing and

it's a whole different hairstyle. There's no there's no way to wear hair that is not considered a style like that you can't like even if it is unkept. They're still like that's where grunge came from. Like there's no situation with white people where they're doing something wrong with

their hair. They may be doing something that's like unkempt to someone else, but everything is a style, and I think that we still have like a little bit of of of ways to go when it comes to like they're the ways our hair grows naturally, So a lot of people naturally lock up, a lot of people naturally

get a froze everything. But then there are some things where I think that kind of to what Dulsay was saying before, there is like some self police again there where it's like, well, why can't he have like you know, a sort of like s curl to the side or what like whatever, goofy thing it looks like because then the same way that fashion works, that will like give rise to a thing that's actually cool one day because I think, but I think it's because we have been

taught that we have to be presentable. And I don't know if it's just all black people are the southern black people, but we have when you step out the house, also we are flashy asked people. We are flashy, asked, get dressed, like because I remember being in Vegas and we were going to a show and the only people that were dressed up to go to because like these are like you know Vegas shows, like big as Vegas shows of these hotels and stuff. These white folks out

here in cargo pants and Margaritaville t shirts. Black folks was dressed. There might only been a few of us there, but we go we when we go out, we go out. You can't even the most hood asked dude, his sneakers are still clean. You see what I'm saying. So for us to get past the self policing, we would also have to get past the fact that, like, yo, if you don't come out the house look in a certain way, even if you have no money, you still come out

the house looking decent. You see what I'm saying, decent within our people, right because you still have to come out of the house looking presentable, because you already have to deal with all of the racism and all the other stuff. No matter how many degrees you have, if you're nigger in the Bends, you were nigger in the Bends, it don't matter. You're still a target. So the mindset is, if I'm gonna be a target, I gotta look good.

So it's like why so I think sometimes I'll see certain people like, yo, why are you gonna if you out here with your head looking like this and your clothes is a little ug cap, you're inviting the cops to funk with you? And I think that's how sometimes we think, because even if you out here looking nice,

the cops are still gonna funk with you. But see what I love now about us as a people, do say to that point, if I can piggy back and extrapolate on your point to that point, what I love is that in the nineties and Alabama, the perception would have been why he out here looking in any kind of way? You ain't got no good head. You need

to rush your head. Whereas now I could see a black person with locks, with dreads with the afro that they ain't quite figured out what they want to do it yet, and just respect that they own the journey. It's almost in the same way the hoodie has become this accepted you. You didn't want to look like a certain type of person if you're where it is where

now it's like, no, this is what I wear. I'm proud to wear it, and I want you to respect and accept me no matter what I'm doing on my body, being hair or close Chelsea, how much does what role does retailers because because y'all y'all know mcgirl, y'all know, my partner salone and saloon like meets with other women with natural hair just on the street, like they just see each other and just you got your hair, I

got natural hair. Where you get your natural hair stuff and it's like a conversation, like it's like buying weed. In nine how much of a responsibility do retailers play and getting more hair care products and creating more shelf space for this style of hair that's becoming more prevalent. I think they're a big part. I also think that a lot of them need to stop having an ethnic hair caroline, Like I'll um, there's still a lot where

it's literally called the ethnic hair care Ill. It's like, just put it in the hair care section and we will know. Here's your section, Negro. I love that. I love it. I don't want to get confused by panting and all this other goofy shit. Have my ship over here that you can segregate there. I don't have time to being. I don't we going through garnier fruit trees on that suave ship. No, put my ship over here.

I know my hair gonna get moisturized instead of me getting tricked by bottles looking at like not all of a sudden, I got baby ship. I got Johnathan and Johnson my house keep you can keep my ships separate. Excuse excuse separate, but equal over there. Go ahead, and I understand what you're saying. I do understand what you're saying,

though duels say. And I also don't mind. Maybe if you have it in a specific section, that's fine, But I just don't think that needs to be called the ethnic section like I think, look at it, Yeah, it does not need a name. If we look at it and I see can too and shame moisture. I know where I'm at, you know, right, Um, so I would say,

like that's a big thing. And then also a lot of these companies need to be a lot more worry about what they're putting into these black hair care products, because hair care products in general have a lot of chemicals, but especially black ones because they were made for like a lot of them used to be made for people with relaxers. They had to have a lot of stuff in them, um that may not have been very good.

I think that could also be um improved. And then yeah, also just depending on the different textures, like I think you need to carry stuff that's for all textures of curly hair, um, not just for women with looser curl textures. And just so everybody is being included. All I know, if one more white person comes up with me talking about Diva curl, I'm going to jail. Do they try to touch your hair? Are white people still trying to touch black women? Is the memo in Spridge? No people

still trying to touch women? Um in any year, in any decade. No, it's white people all of a sudden are now wearing their curly I guess it's trickled down to them now they're not straightening their hair like they used to. And I know whose company, Diva Curl is. I've never met any black woman who has any type of four texture that uses it. I don't even know abody with the three that uses it. You know, they're like, yeah, Diva Curl, And I'm like, I don't use this ship.

I'm not. I have four sea hair. We're not. We don't have the same needs. You're still having to strip oil from your hair. I don't mean there's no there. I have nothing to strip. I'm just trying to cleanse and moisturize. So now they're starting to triple that. So now there are you know, non black people of color and white people with curly hair that are now like.

Shame Moisture got in trouble a while back, Chelsea, You remember this Folks was mad because they had a commercial and it was some curly hair, red haired girl in the commercial. And I think the main thing was that was the first commercial that Shame Moisture was going to put on TV and it was a curly haired white girl in it, and black women were like, Yo, we've been on board with y'all since day one, and y'all do yall's first commercial as a white girl in it? Yeah,

hell are you talking about? And they and I think they ended up pulling the commercial or something. The story that I always cared the most naturally like black hair products for me that wasn't the beauty supply store was Walmart. I was about to say Walgreens. Yeah, yeah, Walmart had it.

And then Target all of a sudden started because like before you had to go hunt down Carol's daughter, you had to go hunt down shape moisture, you had to go hunt down to leave with g products, right, and so now it's I can roll and Target and go and get these products. And so there has to be a thing where it's like we have to talk about you know, we have different textures of hair, and different textures of hair have different needs because like I can tell if there's a black girl on TV that curl

gonna be loose. Yep. We don't even have time to even get into that. Because the more natural hair styles you see on television helps to normalize natural hair. But then that means that you have to hire people who know how to do natural hair so that you can get the right hair care for the actors and the actresses set who have natural hair. Lord, this lady tried to cut my hair the wrong direction one time on the show. We don't even have time the direction. I

cut my hair to the front. She took them clippers and went to the back like I was getting enlisted in the Marines. So to close out the show, let's stay right there in that pocket, everybody, one by one, give me your worst hairstyle you ever had, hairstyle you thought was the ship, and you look back on it and go, I should not have done that, Josh Johnson.

It's fitting that I go first. I guess, Wow, what an attack because you said all of it like you were ready right, like just your worst hairs that he thought was popping. That it was at Josh john like it was. It was all one breath one. I know you got six or seven in the clip. Gon give us one. Well, I'll give you one. That was not my fault. So I got a hair cut from a guy that while he was cutting by hair, his fiance broke up with him, and so then he still tried

to finish the cut. Emotional like stressed out everything. Then then then at what point he like tries to call her, so he's like can I can I just say? I was like, hey, do what you gotta do, and that he calls her doesn't win her back on the phone call. So now I just he has the less of my worse. Now he's worse. Now he has the rest of my head to do. And then I get I get on the bus and I know I don't look good because he didn't offer me the mirror. He was just like

he was just he was finished. And there was like I Pippen, like I appreciate you coming through, appreciate you, understand of everything, but like he's still like so upset that he's not in the world. And so then I leave, and there was there was someone who genuinely walked up to be all the busses when I was in Chicago watching me all the bus. I was like, uh are you are you all right? Like do you do you have somewhere to go? I it's like you were hopeless

a hundred percent a hundred percent. And they gave me a one love as they got off the bus, and I was like, wow, Okay, this is the probably the worst haircut that I've ever had in my entire life. It was like, you know what, you know what? The only thing I can compare to is uh, it's actually duels, like this is why I was so stressed out about getting haircuts? Was this this exactly? But it was the close that can think to. It is in the commercial Roy.

You might remember in the commercial for the video game I think it was Ready to Rumble where one of the guys, like the black guy with the afrow really hard and a piece of his afro came out. It was like, Chelsea, give us a legacy hairstyle that you look back on with regret. I'm gonna guess I feel like you had finger waves at some point. No, I never had finger waves. But the first time and only time I ever did twists on like when I was transitioning,

but pretty much natural. I got them done in the salon. I don't know what happen. Well, my hair is fine and thin. Let me say that because finding thing girl girls will understand, Um, my hair is not made to be twisted like that. I looked like an ostrich like. I sent a photo to my father and he was literally like, you look like an ostrich because it was just like all these curls that were just sticking out and it looks like like single curl. Like. It looks

so bad. I literally had to go home and wash my hair and do it all over again. They'll say, I'm gonna guess yours. I'm gonna say, Queen Latifa, mother of Egypt, high top fate. Okay, my mother would never mormitted me to have a hot top fade. Um. What I can say is that in the early nineties, I lived in Miami. We moved back to Miami, and the trend at the time in Miami was to make every

little girl look like a grown ass woman. So I remember being in Pe and me and other little black girls they were like, we're playing flag football, were like these finger waves gotta last all week, coach, and so I have finger waves in Miami. I have French roles. So you basically had every hairstyle from the movie Baps with Halle Berry. Not that bad, but because I would have, I would tell you I looked like I was ten years old, nine ten years old, and I looked like

a young executive. That's what I would tell you I had. I'm talking about So basically some of the hairstyles from like the movie Uh Boomerang, right, So I had the finger waves that went to a French role, like I looked like I was running hr when really I was learned how to divide. That's really what I was doing. But the thing is I hated the most because I loved all them my hair souse, but my mama. So when a Lady of Rage came out, it's like ninety four,

I guess like the afro puffs was. You know, she came out with the referen stuff for the afropuffs, but my hair was relaxed. But my mama wanted me to have afropuffs. So what she did is she jelled my hair up in a big, two big twony tails and then got the two tone black and burgundy weave and gave me afro puffs like the curly black and burgundy hair because burgundy hair was really big. Burgundy and platinum

blond is real big at the time. And gave me burgundy and black big afro puffs and absolutely I hated it. Burgundy and Atlanta Falcons fan that was the because in Miami at the time, it was you had like a two tone where it was like black that faded into burgundy. The kids call it like a bolliage on her own brain now, but the ship was two tone hair. It

started black when burgundy or it was blonde. And since I was a little girl, they were like, she can wear burglary, but she can't wear do say his mama gave her a fast and furious paint job. First of all, what will not be allowed, respectfully, respectfully, respect Okay, listen, this is Miami's in the early nineties. It was putting a crylic on people's toes. You understand. It was a colorful time. My worst haircut is the one I ended

up not getting. I was doing a show in Calgary, and Calgary for the people who don't know, that's a part of Canada that's very wyoming montana esque in terms of what it feels like and the black population up there. And I was there. It was the last day of shows, and I had an audition in l A the next morning. Like as soon as I land, I got to get

straight to the audition. So I knew there wouldn't be enough time to get a haircut in l A. So I figured we'll let me just roll the die ice and see if I can get a hair cut here in Calgary. And I asked one of the other comedians, Hey, whereas he goes, well, there's a barbershop. He didn't say this spot does black hair. He just said there's a barbershop. And it was in the mall. That will strike one.

I don't know any black person get their hair cut across from a father twenty one, but it was there and I walk in and as soon as I walk in, there's two white barbers and God bless them, they both looked up at me and they just go, we can't do it. And like, for a split second, I thought it was racism, but they was like, I'm happy to try, but I don't know if you will be happy with what the results will be. I can't do it. I go, didn't you have to learn it to do this job?

He goes, yeah, you're learn it, but you're only as good as your last cut, mate. And I can tell you that it's been some years. I said, I appreciate the honesty. It's years and I can't cut black hair in a while. Now I assume you're coming in here because you can see the desperation in my face. He knew ipposite that we both know what the funk it is, right, So I just ended up going to Walgreens and buying some clippers and just having to hatch it myself up

in the mirror. I ended up not getting the role. If you're wondering, I'm gonna tell you what the worst feeling is getting on set and seeing a black woman that can't do my hair, and that has happened a lot. Getting on set and she being like says, and I'm looking at her being like, I can see the vision.

You don't need to be touching me anyway. So yeah, literally coming to set having my own hair care products, with me doing my own hair, because there's a lot of for the same way that that barber had not cut black hair, because doing your own hair and doing somebody else's there's totally different. But there are black hairdressers in the entertainment industry that, because of how the industry is, have only really worked on white people. Now that's something

we're gonna unpack for the next due saying. But that's all the time we have for today. Hopefully we taking you beyond the scenes. Thank you so much to Dulce Sloan, wonderful correspondent, Daily Show Deep Dot producer Chelsea Williamson, and of course, the wonderful Daily Show writer EMME nominated writer Josh Johnson. Thank you all so much for going beyond the scenes with you. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.