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Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ours. It's Monday, the seventh of July. I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy fit Simon's. We are bringing you something a little bit different to start your week today. It's an interview with Australia's head of state. Now you would be forgiven for thinking we might be talking about the Prime Minister, but we are not.
We are actually talking about the Governor General. Sam Austin was appointed to the role just over a year ago and as Governor General, she has a variety of constitutional and ceremonial responsibilities and she acts as the King's representative in Australia. But what does any of that really mean? And how does it work? To unpack these questions and more, Emma, you sat down with Sam Muston to find out all about it.
I sure did. Here is my chat with none other than the Governor General. Governor General Sam Mouston. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks Simmah. It's great to be here.
We are very excited to be talking with you today. And we'll start with a really simple bit broad one. I suppose what is the role of the Governor General? What do you do?
Well? Thank you for asking that question. A lot of people meet me in many different walks of life now and they say, it's nice to see, but who are you and what do you do? So I like to think of the Governor General having four c's that define the ambit of the role. And it's really simple. I have constitutional roles, I have ceremonial functions, community obligations and community interaction. And I'm Commander in Chief of the Australian
Defense Force. How I came to be here and what a Governor General is is all a function of our wonderful democracy. We have a constitution that governs how our parliamentary and operate. So I'm effectively a part of the parliament. I am appointed by the monarch, King Child, but I am chosen by the Australian Prime Minister, as all Australian Governor's General have been before. And then I carry all of the constitutional functions that are held by the head of state, who is the King, and so I'm not
the Australian head of state. I represent the Australian head of state. And an important feature that many people miss is that the King would never contact an Australian Governor General to suggest how we should do anything or offer advice or direction, and a governor General would never contact
the Palace to ask for advice. I take my advice and counsel from the Prime Minister, the Cabinet, and I work with the government and the Parliament, and so we have a historical connection to the monarch, but that has no bearing on the way in which I conduct myself in the role.
It sounds like a pretty unique job. How do you know you're doing a good job? And if it's not Charles, who is your boss?
That's such a good question. I've been appointed by someone who, under the Constitution is the head of state, and theoretically, I guess you could say that would make him my boss. But in the way I think of the Australian public that all Australians are my boss, and so how do
I know how I'm doing a good job. One will be that more Australians understand a why we have a Governor General and what the purpose of the role is, and b could actually describe how our constitutional system operates, and we'll be able to tell you why our democracy works and at least give you the basics of our civics.
If I could judge over the next few years or see that more Australians were interested in how our democracy actually works and showed up as active, curious, animated citizens, then I think I'm doing a very good job on
that part of the role. More generally, I have to do a good role for Australians in showing up and representing the best of Australian values when it comes to the ceremonial parts of my job, turning up in community all around the country to listen to what it is that Australians can tell someone who has no part politics but could talk to government about things that I get to see from my angle that maybe others in the system don't.
I want to speak a little more about the constitutional and legislative responsibilities of your role. Firstly, can you tell us a little bit about royal assent how that all works.
Yes, So, for any legislation that he is raised in the Parliament and has gone through both houses of the Parliament, that is put into the bill form, it's signed by the Clerk of the Senate and then is sent to me to give the royal assent. So I'm always very conscious that when I open those bills and as I'm signing, I always think about the fact that in this moment, in giving that assent, I'm giving effect to the will of the Australian people, and this bill now becomes the law.
I can't read the bill and say, actually, I have some questions or I'd like to debate the aspects of this. It's my job to fulfill the ultimate final step of the people's elected representatives pass laws that then need the assent under the Constitution.
What happens when or if legislation comes across your desk that does conflict with your values. You have, throughout your career in the private sector championed the cause of various communities of social justice issues, So how do you reconcile that part of yourself with this job.
I wouldn't have accepted the job if I didn't understand the very very specific obligations. When I was sworn in as Australia's Governor General, I swore an oath to the King and I saw an oath to the Australian people about how I would conduct myself in the role. And that is with total impartiality and no politics. No governor General would ever ever tamper with a constitutional responsibility that is so clear. And so I'm in that unique position where I have no politics, I have no policies, I
have no money to administer. I represent ultimately what with the will of all Australian people when they vote. All I do was give effect to things that Australia what to have happened. And my personal views really are not to say relevant, they're completely inappropriate when it comes to the administration of our government.
So in the context of government, you are the representative of the constitution. You're kind of the expert of all things constitutional, and it's your job to uphold every part of that.
So the Crown's powers are dealt within the Constitution and the power of the Governor General to represent the head of state. Given all of that, some would say, well the King must call occasionally and say I think you could do it this way, or I've noticed this is happening in your constitution. He would never do that, and I would never call his office to say I'm looking
for guidance. The person I would speak to if I had if I wanted to discuss things would be the Prime Minister, a senior cabinet minister, or my staff the office of the Official Secretary. I think it was almost like an entirely hermetically sealed Australian way of operating. But we draw my power from the head of Stafe in the Constitution, the King.
How would you answer a question from someone who might ask, well, what's the point? Why does that matter for the legislative process.
What we have? I think in this country it's a story that starts with sixty five thousand years of attachment to this continent and first Nations law, language, culture, eldership always offered generously to those who have come subsequently, and we come through fifty or sixty years of the most remarkable multiculturalism and arrival of over eight million people to this country who bring a promise when they become Australian citizens to give effect to the laws of this country
and we give their allegiance to Australia and Australians. And if you put those things together and you ask what's holding the whole thing together so that we can continue to grow and be dynamic, I think it's the fact that we have this solid, solid democracy with a Westminster system that's linked to the crown in a way that gives stability and continuity, but does not determine how we
deal with that in this country. Our constitution at the time a federation was drafted to give the power to the people to always amend it should a government and opposition of a day. Since that the Australian public has an issue they would like to be asked about that they could then vote on, and we've had many of those, most do not succeed. The problem isn't with the crown. It's that we've become a very complacent country with a
lack of attention to detail on civics. So when questions are asked of us as a nation, if you don't know that we have a constitution, if you don't know the role of the Governor General and it's relationship with the Prime Minister and the Parliament, and you're not encouraged to have a civics view and think about yourself as a citizen with a sense of agency, then why would you show up and actually do the work to change the constitution. So I see the problem not being in
our constitutional framework. The problem was in our lack of understanding of the basic civics that give us the power to exercise that right and to change things should the country want to.
What you speak to there is so important to what we're trying to do here on a much smaller scale with what the daily olds means.
When I say the reason I'm so delighted to chat with you, Emma and for your audience is that you're not doing a little thing. What you're involved in is what I think is fundamental to our success as a nation, because I get this incredible kaleidoscopic view of the country and then I get to see it at fine grain when I go and visit communities and talk to people, and I see the problem of the CIVICX question. And so what you're doing in unpacking it and giving people
a sense of their own agency is really important. Thank you, because you're dispelling a whole lot of misunderstanding, but you're pushing up against misinformation and disinformation on this front.
I'm interested in unpacking those misconceptions around your relationship with the royal family, specifically, acting for the monarch is that different to acting for the royal family. I think a lot of people do imagine that you might be emailing each other or sending off a WhatsApp message here and there.
So and I like the way that you made the distinction between the Crown and Royalty. I exercised the powers of the Crown through the Constitution in Australia as an Australian chosen by an Australian. I have a relationship with His Majesty as he appointed me. I went to visit him in Buckingham Palace in the months before I was appointed, and we sat to get to know one another. We had just under an hour together. He didn't tell me how to do my job, but he asked me how
Australia was going. What was I saying, what was almost proud of is Australian. He asked me about my daughter and how she was going. It was both very important and also very just person to person getting to know someone. I said, would you like me to occasionally write to you just to let you know things that are happening in Australia, except that would be very good, and I will occasionally write to you to let you know what's
happening here. When he came to Australia with Her Majesty in October last year, and I hosted a royal visit. Australians have an affinity and I think some affection for the royal family, and a royal visit is always generally well received. Those that are not happy make that known and either ignore the whole thing or protest, and that's one of the great things about our democracy that that
can happen. Of course, whilst he was here, he was the head of state, and so I moved out of Admiralty House while he and the Queen stayed there, because that's the place where the Governor General or the head of State will stay and it would be not appropriate for me as just to be in the house chatting.
And because he's sharing Netflix login, that's.
Actually you might share a log in, but not share a kind of conversation on a difficult constitutional issue I might have in the back of my mind or a thing that's facing Australia that I think he should guide me on. That separation's really important. Does a deep respect for one another. There's a deep understanding of what each
other's roles are. And then he was really intrigued and interested in the successful parts of the country that we were showing him and letting people come and tell him about as part of the story of how Australia's going.
How do you balance representing the crown and representing modern Australia, modern Australian values. What does that balance look like?
When the Prime Minister said he wanted me to be a modern, visible and optimistic Governor General. In accepting the role, I had to think, what does modernity for the Australian Governor General actually mean? How do I show that? And in part that's where I came to the view that I would commit myself to care, kindness and respect as the centerpiece of how I would do the job. What is care in a modern, successful, complex society? How do
you show that? And I'm taking my lead now from Australians wherever I go, and I ask them what does care mean for you? Does it show up physically in the middle of a terrible natural disaster? Or is it the way we treat each other when someone is doing it tough? Or do we do it through our mental health system? Do we do it by not excluding The great opportunity and gift I've been given in this role is to show, in representing the head of state that
everyone can belong in this country. And I honestly am I am overwhelmed with people's level of enthusiasm and interest when they see that someone in a high public office is happy to ask those questions to say, is that actually what an Australian value is is that the muscle we could be exercising, And so I think care and kindness, respect exerising that muscle are now what I think are some of the great Australian values.
With those values in mind, and you know, prioritizing care and respect and what that means to you, inevitably a role of the crown representing the crown means inevitable links to colonialism and all that that symbolizes. How do you reconcile that with Australia's First nation's history and how does that play into your approach as governor General.
I guess it comes back to my philosphy that everyone belongs. I have had a long association with many First Nations people, and I served on the Board of Reconciliation Australia. I had to imagine what would my conversations be with First Nations Australians about why I would say yes without being able to ask them at the time, But once I had announced, I reached out to all sorts of people
and it was so generous that Aboriginal torature. Other people said, of course you should say yes, of course you should do this job. But do it with the greatest of respect to our story. But our story isn't your story. Create spaces of respect and belonging where we continue to tell our stories, and that's why I do. I try to create an environment where we constantly look to the strength we have uniquely because of where we started. And I don't think any of us really ever want to
not acknowledge the history of what happened through colonization. I'm disappointed as I was growing up, I had no knowledge of that part of Australia. Where's my twenty five year old daughter today had so much of that storytelling and engagement. So I think it comes down to respect. Respect first, nation of people for whom the crown is a real problem, for whom Australia Day is a problem. I would always
acknowledge that for many that's the day of mourning. In fact, in nineteen thirty eight, that was the date chosen by the Aboriginal League to deal with mourning. So I'm trying to be as expansive, inclusive, respectful, but understanding the role I represent for some provides attention, and I will always open that conversation up to explain my role in this that my sense of deep respect always for First Nations people and our history.
Do you see the role as having shifted in the wake of the Voice referendum? Has anything changed since that failure?
The Governor General didn't play a role in the referendum, but we know that for many communities, Aboriginal communities as a very high rate of support. What I think has changed for my role, though, is the way in which compassion has shown. I often visit those communities and I think just showing up understanding grief and pain. I don't enter into the discussion about the why or how. I simply am there, as Sir Zelman Cowan used to say, to reflect the light and shade of what's occurring in
communities back to the Australian people. And then Sir William Dean said to me when I met all of the living Governors General before I was sworn in, and so William just said, just always act with compassion, Just show up with compassion. Don't dismiss anybody. And that's one of the great powers of this office is to show up, to sit compassionately and listen and where appropriate, reflects some of this light and shade.
Given some of the complexities that we have discussed, what does the future of the role of the monarchy look like for Australians.
The matter of the republic has been put to the Australian public before and it was not successful. Australians did not vote for it. And I think what we're seeing is a modern king who's engaging on issues many Australians share a view on. When people who serve turn up and show that they are good people with compassion, Australians seem to respond very well.
There was maybe a sentiment that when Queen Elizabeth passed away the conversation would be reignited, but it hasn't really has it.
No. If anything, I think a modern king doing what he's doing and a failure of civics with us leaves this big gap. It's chasm. And if the only question we ever ask ourselves is our relationship to the king as opposed to what is the constitution? How is Australia governed?
How does my vote count. That's my bigger concern that if we just keep looking at monarchy and royalty as some kind of proxy for a relationship that doesn't actually tell us, never tells me what to do, then maybe we're asking the wrong question about where we are as a country. I have no stake in that in that decision right where the Australian people go. I do have a really big steak though, in helping Australians be proud of that civic life and reflecting on why do I
not care? Why do I not know what the Governor General does? And why is it easy for me to knock it than it is to ask myself the question of hang on, how does that work? Oh? Is that why I have a compulsory vote? And I think, particularly for people you're speaking to younger Australians, twenty five thousand children and come through Government House every year at grade six, half of those kids understand our civics. Generally, by the time they get to end of view ten it's dropped
to under twenty five percent. So something's happening when those kids come through who are enthusiastic and then knowing that by the time they get to you ten who cares, and then as they get to be adults, who cares even less, And then we start throwing things around and criticizing the people the roles. Then we're in division and misinformation and disinformation, and no one knows how to interpret
what's real anymore. So I go back to how do you grab hold of what I see in those twenty five thousand children through your audience and beyond to say, it is magic when you see a young person who knows what our system is. And it's equally really upsetting when I meet people who have given up caring. And so my job, I think, is to keep showing up and saying, no matter what you might think before asking
the question, I'm here to help build. Together with as many as a strangers, I can find a story about our civics and how we want to cherish it.
I'm really interested in your extensive experience in the private sector as a woman who has been a pioneer in many fields, in many different positions. I believe when you were first appointed the first female AFL commissioner, you were described as a quota pick. There is a lot of conversation going on at the moment about quotas your position. Leader Susan Lee just last week spoke about quotas. She said she doesn't really care if we have quotas. She
just wants more women in the Liberal Party. So with all of this conversation going on and your experience, what is your stance on quoters? What's your position?
If I look back to the AFL days, the fastest growing membership of clubs and the people who held up the AFL system financially supporting were women. At least half the fans were women, and so the president of the AFL went to ten women. We went through the most incredible series of interviews, Amy, I got down to short, shorter lists until the last two of us were there, and then finally I was the fortunate person to be appointed. And then it started, it's woke, it's gender. You know.
It was a many people wrote, she lacks merit, this is simply a quota. My response at the time, in the same way I would say about my current appointment, is look at how we got here. So the men on the commission before I was appointed were never put through a recruitment process, though never interviewed. Now there are four women on that commission. Every appointment to the Commission is done through a process where there is an interview process, nominations, referees.
It didn't happen before that. So sometimes we fix imbalances and inequalities by having to break the system, but do it in a way that is all about merit. The whole thing about that process was it was the first merit based appointment because we had to be tested against one another. So I'm the second only in this role as a woman, and in accepting this role, I knew that there would be a torrent of that kind of ranting, from abuse to just anger that quotas and systems are
gone too far and men didn't count him. I expected all of that. There is no doubt in my mind that the Prime Minister, in appointing a woman, was reflecting on the fact that there only been one other and I'm number twenty eight. The Prime Minister was reflecting the fact that we had to stop telling the country that only men could do this job. So I had to
reconcile that it wasn't a quota. That was the most natural thing for a leader to do, to say I want to make sure Australian see that no gender gets this above the other. So if we have inequity and we can fix it, that's what we do. It's the way in which you deal with the quote and how you explain it, and how you show the benefit to men. I have never liked serving on a board of all women.
It's because no group of homogeneous people with the same experience ever make the kind of good decisions that a group of people with different experiences can make. But hoping, wishing and praying for equality for anyone has never worked. You have to set yourself a target. You've got to measure yourself against it. You've got to the best people available and we have to show them it's not a zero sum game for those that think they've lost out.
Sammuston, I could talk to you all day, but I have one final question before we let you go. Thank you for being so generous with your time. We are speaking essentially on the anniversary of your appointment to this role, almost to the day one year ago that you became Governor General of Australia. We do something here at TDA on staff birthdays where we ask each other to share something that we know now that we didn't know a year ago. So I thought in the spirit of your
GG birthday? What do you know now that you didn't know a year ago?
Wow? So without any preparation, that's great. Sorry, I love I love I love that question. I love it. There are so many things I now know that I did not know coming into this role. I think what I know now is that we are a much bigger, better united nation as Australia than I ever contemplated. When I started, I was more thinking about the things that are holding us back. And I now get to see, whether the panoramic view or the fine grain, wherever I go, I see something
about this country that is truly astonishing. It doesn't just make me the number one fan of Australia, although I think I have become that. I am constantly thrilled and delighted, not amazed, but confirmed in the view that we are so much stronger. We're in a better place than we let ourselves understand. Don't mean to be nationalistic or it's just we are extraordinary and I hadn't let myself really
think about that coming into this role. And the last thing I've realized is that it's okay for us to start telling stories back to ourselves. The other positive ones We do not have to crowd ourselves always with what might still cause us to be at odds. We need to keep telling ourselves a much bigger, better, mighty story and lock into that and then do the work.
Such a fascinating, fascinating chat. Thank you so much to Sam Wawston for her time, and thank you so much to Emma of course for doing that incredible interview. We'll be back this afternoon with our evening headlines, but until then, have a great day.
My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bujelung Kalkudin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present,