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Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. My name is Sam Kozlowski. And on today's episode of our TDA summer series, we thought we'd bring you what was probably one of our proudest moments as an organization, and that was bringing an exclusive interview with ex AFL player Mitch Brown to light. In that interview, Mitch told us and told Australia that he was the first openly gay or bisexual male AFL player in the game's one hundred and
twenty nine year history. It was an incredible moment and if we look back on that moment now, we can just see how much progress already has been made in this conversation and the continued work that Mitch has done since his interview with The Daily OS. For me personally, it was one of the most nerving interviews I've done in my years at TDA, because the stakes were high and it was honor to be trusted with Mitch's story.
Here's that chat with Mitch and I and I think it's something that we'll all look back on as a key moment in twenty twenty five.
You're right nervous A smile when I'm nervous. I'm nervous too. It's a good TRD to have, Mitch. Thanks so much for joining us on the Daily Odds today. No worries.
So I was about this time last week that I got a DM from you on Instagram. Take me through the hours that led up to sending that message and what the message said. The message it wasn't so much how as it was.
A moment in time for me, and there was seconds, but leading up to that, it's been years of you know, emotions, feelings trapped in.
My head, in my soul, in my heart for so long.
And I sent you a DM on Instagram after I saw a video when you're talking about the recent homophobic slur and the AFL and the reactions that came with that. And my text message said, Hey, Sam, I played in the AFL for ten years for the West Coast Eagules and I'm a bisexual man.
And that's all it said. That's a really big thing to say.
Yeah, it feels amazing now, you know when I sent you know, the moments that led up to that, I had this feeling of peace, but more importantly comfort and confidence, confidence in who I am, my identity, and comfort with share that and the people have around me.
There's been one hundred and twenty five years of vfl AFL competition. That's tens of thousands of male players.
You are the first.
Past or present player to say I'm gay or I'm bisexual publicly. Why do you think it's taken that long?
And you ask me that question, it's quite sad to hear that, you know, you know, you start reflecting on why is it taken me so long? Before you go and question why is it taken the community so long? And I get like the generations, not just how the wider community fear feel about the queer community, but just everything. Things change over the generations. We learn, we grow as
a society. We're more educated than ever, we have more empathy than ever, and that correlates to the timeline, the amount of time of why you know, being openly gay or bisexual as a Australian rules footballer pastor present has taken so long?
Why do you think it's taken you so long? Yeah?
For me, you know, society and definitely the communities and the environments that I grew up with. I have a beautiful family and I've lived a very privileged life as a white male in our society and things have come to me quite easily. So I just want to acknowledge that, and you know, and I want to acknowledge it. I'm not speaking on behalf of the queer community. I'm only
speaking for my own experiences, lived experiences. But as I was growing up, I was involved and you know, as a male here in Australia, most of us are in environments of hyper masculinity.
So what I mean by that is.
I grew up in Ballarat and the country played football when I was young, in juniors only with boys. The young girls didn't have a chance to play football our coaches. There was always men dads. I went to primary school in the country and then went to high school to an all boys Catholic school, and then as a seventeen year old young man, flew across the country and stepped into an extra hyper masculine environment and that is at an AFL footballer.
So that's when you were drafted. You were drafted to the West Coast Eagles and you went across the Perth at seventeen seventeen. Was it around then that you started questioning or thinking through your sexuality.
It's really it's a really hard one to answer because these thoughts have come up, questioning and you know, part of my experience has been suppressing that for so long, you know, unconscious, like it's you don't even think about when you do suppress it.
You know, I grew up as a man in Australia.
I leave home, I will find a girlfriend and I'll get married, and that's that's how we do things.
And in the environments that you're in, whether it's a high school, in the group chats, recess or in the locker room as a footballer, as an adult, you just it was never once an opportunity to speak openly or explore your feelings or my feelings or questions in a safe way.
Was it just something that was absent or was it discouraged?
Do you think discouraged? What do you mean by that?
We all know that the locker room chat, the chats in the spa, and so I'm speaking about AFL football environment now and the chats we're all geared around. You know, who did everyone pick up on the weekend or you know, she's pretty hot or she's this and that, and it was never once ildn't even it wasn't even in my mind to share or ask the question, or bring things up or even talk about the queer community at all.
In fact, you know, it was always something that you'd keep inside because if you did put out a question or you did talk about you know, I'd love David Bowie the artist, the music in his music. And even if I was to talk about David Bowie as a talented artist, as someone to aspire me to be truly yourself and happy with whoever you are, the conversation would always steer back about his sexuality.
And I think the thing that's really interesting to me is that I think I'm right in describing these guys also as some of your best mates and housemates at the time and lifelong friends. Explain the disconnect then, though, that you did have intimate relationships with this group of players, but couldn't or didn't talk about this key part of of you.
You learn very quickly just to say nothing. And you know, I was always very very good at putting things deep inside of me, not just about my sexuality but about everything.
I could bury them so deep, and.
Most people in my position can do that better than anyone and you move on. And especially in a high performance environment like the AFL, it's so clear your task and that is to train hard, get better, win games, win a premiership. So it's really easy to not bring your personal life into things, to stay quiet, to not share too much of yourself, because you know you can easily still be an amazing team member and not reveal
yourself your true identity, and still be successful. You know, there was one time I did share my questions about my sexuality with a teammate or with you know, a person in my footballing community in Western Australia, and it was just a sort of casual question around how do you know if you're gay? How do you know if you're bisexual? And I remember it happened a long ago, a long time ago, in two thousand and seven, but it was laugh laughed at.
It was almost like, that's a funny question. You've been funny, Mitch.
And then the conversation just rolled on, but it was made as a joke, and I remember how that made me feel, and.
I swore never to bring that up over again.
Well, you were nineteen in two thousand and seven. That's a really important age to be asking that question, and I'm sure a really important age to be hearing action like that to it.
Yeah.
I mean, I've had so much time to think about this, to sit with my emotions and feelings over the years. And you know, sorry, what was that questioning?
Why don't we talk about on the field. I think you've painted a really good picture of the locker room. Talk to me about combat on the field and the role of homophobic comments in your playing career as almost a weapon to be used against your opposition.
I think.
On the field, you're trying to beat your opponent, right, trying to win, and the best way to do that is to strow you show your stress. Of One of the ways you do that is to belittle your opponent, bring them down. And you do it physically, yeah, and then you can do it verbally as well. You know, you can say all sorts of things. And you hear that on the field every single week, every single game. You hear that in your workplace, on the building site at schools.
You know, I think.
This year, you know, it's it's very known, it's become an AFL problem, but it's an Australian man's problem.
Do you remember any times where you had homophobic comments directed at you?
Countless?
And it wasn't because you know people you know, I'm straight presenting man, and you know it was used because a gay man, a bisexual man, someone in the queer community was seen as someone so small and low and weak. You know, for a man in Australia, you know, that's probably the weakest thing you could be. You know, certainly when I was growing up at school, the word gay
was thrown around constantly. And we're an all boys school, so you know, to belittle someone or to hurt someone, you would say, oh, you're gay, and it just became part of the normal conversation.
What was it like hearing those homophobic comments directed at you and internalizing that homophobia while you were navigating your own identity in your twenties.
That's exactly right, Sam, Like you know, I went, most young people finished school and go to university, go traveling or a gap year and have the time and space to find your people, your community, your queer community, or explore and you know, for only speak because this is my experience for footballers, I went into this hyper masculine environment not being able to have the chance to explore
my sexuality. When you hear these comments and if to someone else or in general conversation or directed at you, you've suppressed these feelings so much because that culture is so strong around being a strong male in their eyes that you forget, You forget who you are and your identity. This notion around a queer player being in the AFL AFL men's has come up time and time again. You know, I really want this to be an anti climax or another event.
The reality is that you retired many years ago and we're still in relatively the same position with the frequency of homophobic talking points in the AFL. Has anything changed since you played?
Do you think?
Well, I can't speak for the locker rooms down, but you know the fact that we're hearing more publicly about a homophobic slur is a good thing because it is being called out. I remember when this issue, I say issue,
when this was talked brought up. At one time when I was playing around no gay men in the AFL were sitting in the massage room and there was just the general conversation around the issues in the AFL, and this came up, and I remember two people having a conversation around how they would feel having a shower next to a gay man. One of the players referred it, I'd rather be in a cage full of lines than have a shower next to a gay man. And There's been so many times in my life that I've seen
things or heard things and not said anything. And I didn't say anything in fear of people thinking that I was gay or bisexual. I remember that feeling so like, it's so strong, and I didn't do anything about that.
Yeah, that's a lot of fear to hold. Talk to me about them where you began to deconstruct that fear.
Yeah, well, just speaking about that locker room from that day, Like I part of the conversations that we used to have in the locker room and in the spas and the swimming pools, and is like, oh, you know who is gay in this club?
Oh, we think it's that it's definitely that person. They haven't had a girlfriend for a while or ever. So you know, even that those conversations, that culture, that behavior, you know, sitting there hearing that again, you're bury it even further. You know. I got to the the end.
Of my career and I was asked to play on for a couple more years, and I was over it.
I was done.
How much of a role did this conversation we're having today and the topics in it, How much of a role did that have in you making that call to end your career?
Huge?
Right, and not so much about you know, my sexuality is only one part of me.
There's a lot of part of the parts of Mitch.
And one of the biggest reasons I wanted to finish up playing AFL was to meet new people. I craved talking to someone and not being judged. I craved the ability to choose who I wanted to be around rather than to fit in to a team. And you know, ultimately, in all aspects of my life, not just my sexuality.
That's why I was decided to finish. And when I finished, I never looked back on my career and football and I played for ten years, so there's enough there to, you know, have some sort of wisdom, and I look back and I don't. I'm not disgruntled. I didn't hate my experience as a footballer. I loved it. But I'm
so ready to finish and move on. And it took me a while to start to deconstruct this strong identity that was stowed upon me by the environments that I was in, that I truly believed in, like I bought into that.
The fear was so strong, and the fear of being caught out, yeah, so strong that you don't dare scared of being outed or someone to call you gay. And then because I wasn't ready, I wasn't confident in my identity and who I was, my natural reaction would be to suppress that, to you know, project my masculinity even more. And I wasn't ready for that. I didn't understand. I didn't have the.
Confidence in my identity as a bisexual man.
Thanks for joining us for the first half of our conversation with Mitch Brown. If you need support or someone to talk to at any time, you can contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or q life on one eight hundred and one eight four five two seven. We'll bring you the second half of that chat tomorrow. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country.
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all.
Aboriginal and torrest rate island and nations.
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