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Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday, the twentieth of September. I'm Emma, I'm Zara, a new TV show has started a conversation about diversity in media and the representation of autistic people in Australian workplaces. The Assembly on ABC features a collective of autistic journalism students mentored by ABC veteran journalist Lease Sales. Over six episodes, we see the students interview some of Australia's biggest names,
from Hamish Blake to the Prime Minister. This feel good series has not only entertained audiences, it started a broader discussion around representation, highlighting the strengths of neurodiversity in a way you might not have seen on screen before. To well us through The Assembly and its broader impact, We're very excited to be joined by Lee Sales herself in today's deep dive. But first, Zara. What's making headlines.
Australia's population has officially passed twenty seven million. That's according to the latest figures from the Australian.
Bureau of Statistics.
The population grew by more than six hundred thousand in the twelve months to March twenty twenty four. Net overseas migration that's the number of people who arrived in Australia minus the number of people who left, was a key driver of population growth, with the rest made up of new births. WA had the fastest growing population, while Tasmania saw the slowest growth.
Australia's unemployment rate remained unchanged at four point two percent in August. According to the latest ABS figures. The unemployment rate reflects the percentage of people who were looking for work but couldn't find any. This figure is ceas nearly adjusted, meaning the ABS that's the Australian Bureau of Statistics has removed the effects of calendar specific patterns from the data, like fruit picking in summer or Christmas casuals in retail
in December. Over the last two months, unemployment has been at its highest since November twenty twenty one, despite the number of employed people increasing.
Some ex users in Brazil have regained access to the platform after an automatic update the Spider nationwide ban imposed by the country Supreme Court last month. According to the Brazilian Association of internet and telecommunications providers. X changed network providers to a service that has more efficient resistance against blocking. In a statement, X said the switch was to continue providing optimal service to our users, and the renewed access
for some Brazilian users was inadvertent and temporary. It said, quote, we expect the platform to be inaccessible again shortly. If you want to understand more about the context of this story, we did do a podcast on X and Brazil a little while ago, so we will throw that link in today's show notes.
And today's good news. Norway has become the first country in the world to have more electric cars than petrol cars on its roads. The director of the Norwegian Road Federation called the milestone historic, attributing the uptake of EV's to government incentives including lower taxes, tolls and parking fees for evs, as well as bus lane exemptions. The federation says the country's new challenge will be to have EV's outnumbered diesel powered cars, which is projected to be achieved
in twenty twenty six. We'll be back with the Deep Dive right after this. The new ABC doco series The Assembly has captured the hearts of many It's a show that's brought conversations about autism and diversity in media to a mainstream audience. And who better to talk us through the impact of The Assembly than the woman who mentored its cast. Lee sALS is one of Australia's most prominent journalists, a renowned interviewer, and we are delighted to have her
on the podcast today. Lee Sales, Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having.
Me, Thank you for being here. We're talking today, of course, about The Assembly, a show that brings together a group of autistic people who are interested in pursuing journalism. But for anyone listening who might not have seen the program, how would you describe it in your words?
Okay?
It's fifteen autistic people who are given some training in the basics of journalism and then I work with them as a mentor. Then they every week are told that they're going to be interviewing a celebrity or a sports person or some other notable Australian. I work with them to help them craft the questions, and then as a group they interview that one person.
What was that mentoring process like for you? Had you ever done anything like that before?
I actually after I finished anchoring seven point thirty, one of the things I asked the ABC was to try to do a job that carved out more time for me to work with other reporters and younger reporters to pass on some knowledge and skills. I really love doing that, so that's actually part of my job description to do that. So I do that quite a lot around the place in the ABC, So that side of.
It wasn't new to me.
What was new to me was dealing with all the different kinds of people who because autism is such a wide variety of presentations, so everyone's kind of different. So dealing with all these people to try to assist them to find what they wanted to ask, and to also just give them the confidence to do it, because it's a big thing to have to stand up in front of everyone and ask questions of the Prime Minister or something like that.
Yeah, exactly, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about how you kind of developed that trust and you helped those journalists feel safe. Obviously a diverse range of comfort and experience levels and skills. There's this disclaimer that one of the students leads at the start of each interview that I really loved, where you know, they kind of established that this is a safe space, that you know, the talent are in a safe space, there
are no questions off the table. How did you navigate helping them feel safe and confident and trusted.
I think there are a couple of layers to it.
One of the really important ones was that the producers of the show, which was a production company called Helium in conjunction with the ABC, worked very closely with a group called Aspect, which is an autism body to kind of create a space that people would feel comfortable with and to use them as consultants for advice about how to create a space that's ticking all the boxes you need for television in terms of lights and equipment and the whole rigamarole, but to also make it autism friendly.
And so before I would even get.
Involved, there was already a level I guess of comfort and familiarity and people being made to feel like we're here to make you feel like you know, this is okay. But then also for me, I think it's the same thing that makes anyone comfortable in an interview, which is just listening really carefully to them and making it about them and not about you. So I would always try to be paying attention and getting to know everyone and making them feel like I was interested in them and
cared about them, which I did. And I think that people just sense that if you're genuine about that, and that that enables people to feel kind of relaxed. And even you know, in my job, when I'm interviewing people, I'm all the time trying to give people that sense that they're in a kind of safe place.
Yeah.
Similarly, for the talent, was there a bit of navigating their concerns or their insecurities about what they were walking into.
Definitely, so, because I think for the talent, the show had never been on before, so they didn't really have anything to compare it to or to know what to expect.
And so you can imagine the pitch.
You know, you're in the prime Minister and go, Okay, we've got fifteen autistic people. They're all going to interview you at once. They can ask whatever they like. It'll go for an hour and a half and once we get going, I'll have limited control over the situation.
It's not the most we.
Can possibly go wrong for a politician.
Exactly so I think, you know, for everyone who agreed to be in it, I so appreciated it because there was a bit of trust involved that it's going to be okay, and I thought that was just really wonderful that they were all willing to kind of give it a go.
So that was lovely.
A lot of the students involved, we hear a bit about their personal lives, and many of them have experienced bullying, loneliness, isolation.
What was the.
Significance of giving those people access to some of the most influential names in the country, not only sitting them in the same room, but giving them their time.
It was so lovely to be around it because the group of students would always be so thrilled and excited about whoever was coming in, and so that was just so nice because you know, I've been a journalist for thirty years, and so when the Prime Minister's coming in, I tend to just feel nervous and worried and anxious and pressure, whereas for this group, they'd be like, oh my god, I am going to be talking to the.
Prime minister right.
So it just reminded you what a privilege that is that we get to do that. In journalism all the time, and it was just such a kind of positive environment to be around. Because the other thing, too was the nature of the questions and the way they were asked.
There was never really an agenda.
It was just whatever they were interested in or curious about, and so that also was a different kind of vibe to what media interviews or press conferences can be like.
So it was just lovely being around it.
Yeah, it was that kind of lack of agenda that I noticed really put the interview subjects at ease in a way I hadn't seen before. We've all seen Anthony Albanezi interviewed one hundred times, You've interviewed him a hundred times, but the kind of relaxed nature of it being a really pure sort of space.
And you see that from the way the questions are asked, like just the genuine sort of interest. The other thing, other than the fact that things were asked without any kind of parent agenda, was every question, whether it was a really serious one like what are you doing to
help people with disabilities get employment? Or how many times have you kissed Jody, everything was asked with the same level of emotional intensity, and so it's a really I think interesting experience for the person being interviewed, because it's this wildly veering rollercoaster that you're never kind of sure where it is. Ras say, if you come in for an interview with me, and you're familiar with how I interview, you've probably got a fair sense of how that will go.
You won't know every single thing, but you'd have a reasonable idea what to expect. Whereas who could possibly expect a question like how much money do you have in dollars and cents?
Which was what Amos Blake.
Got A asked that question ruthless but amazing and yielded really really interesting It was great.
Yeah, I loved it too.
Thinking about then, that sort of divergent thinker's approach to an interview and that curiosity and positivity that we saw. Do we need more of that in media?
Well? I thought it was a fantastic reminder when you're in interviewing somebody, especially somebody who's been interviewed a lot, like a politician or a celebrity or a sportsperson, to think really carefully about what you might be able to ask them that they haven't been asked a million times before.
You know, what are not the obvious questions, what might be things that build rapport And so I thought it was a really useful reminder to do that, and also a useful reminder for journalists to approach things completely open mindedly and to not go into things with an agenda, because I just think the talent can kind of sense that, and I've found in my own career you can pretty much ask somebody anything if you ask it with genuine curiosity.
So you can, you know, ask something even quite personal or offensive if you preface it by saying, look, you know, I hope this question is not going to offend you, and you don't have to answer it, of course, but I just wondered, you know, why did you steal that money? Or you know, if you ask something in that kind of a manner, that's far more likely to elicit and engage response than you know, being on why did you
steal the money? Yeah, So it was just a reminder of those things, like having that kind of open mindedness and just going in with a spirit of curiosity is really good.
Of course, with the assembly, we had a room of fifteen autistic student journalists. That is not a reality that is reflected in most press conference rooms, in most newsrooms around the country. Do you think that this shows us that that needs to change.
Yeah. I hope that it does lead not just to employment for the people in the show, if they want it in media, but even just for them that the confidence they got from that experience that they might be able to take into whatever they choose to do.
I do think that we need to.
Have a more open minded approach to the kinds of people we employ in journalism, because otherwise there's just these whole and not just in neurodivergence, in all sorts of things. There's this whole kind of series of blind spots that we have. If we just employ people who went to private schools and grew up in inner city Sydney or Melbourne, we're going to get a particular kind of people who are working in journalism, and so we need to kind of.
Look further afield.
And I think, you know, with this show, what it demonstrated at the end of the day is even if you strip aside the worthiness of doing a show with autistic people, it's just an entertaining show. And so I think what it proved is you can make an entertaining piece of television. Forget the kind of diversity goals. You can make entertaining television with a diverse group of people.
Do you think there is fear and hesitation from employers, you know, the whole from the whole spectrum of the production company to journalists and the experience. Are we too afraid to lean in to those conversations.
I think there is a degree of that.
And I noticed even when I was doing the publicity rounds for the show, one of the things that came up was language. So, for example, you would have noticed I've been saying autistic people. One of the interviewers who was talking to me, high profile interviewer, said, Oh, I was really worried about this because I wasn't sure if I should say people with autism more autistic people. The
advice from aspect was autistic people. But that's the kind of thing that makes people feel worried about, well, should I do an interview about this or just avoid it? Because if I misspeak, then I could be at the center of some kind of big controversy and then be in trouble and everything could fall apart. And so I think there's two ways we can look at that. One is I think we all just need to kind of
educate ourselves a bit better about things. But the other thing too is to make sure when people are well intentioned and they do make mistakes, that it doesn't turn into catastrophe. So there has to be kind of I think, just general understanding and compassion at all ends. But I do think there's a little bit of fear.
Did you experience that yourself in the room with the journals you were mentoring them, working on their questions when you went into it initially for the first episode, did you have a little bit of that hesitation in your own self?
Not at the point at which I went in to shoot the show, but when I was approached about doing it, I had exactly those thoughts about, well, is it all do side risk for me? What if I said a foot wrong? Everyone I'll be looking to, you know, kick me in the pants, you know, like a lot of things in life. Actually, when you're working with the people involved, it's completely awesome and fine. It's just the kind of fear I guess, based around the kind of stuff we
see on social media. You just think, oh, maybe I'll find myself the target of a whole lot of you know, people, So that thought did cross my mind, but then you know, the people involved on the show were just absolutely delightful.
What comes next for these fifteen journals? Have any of them gone on to continue pursuing journalism job offers?
So all fifteen were offered a paid internship at the ABC if they wanted it, and everyone accepted it, which was lovely. The thing that's going to be interesting is to see, you know, like, say, for example, I went to university with say thirty people who were in my course at the time into journalism. I think within about two years only maybe ten people were still in journalism, and today probably only two are still in journalism. So sometimes people dip a toe in media. They decide, oh,
it's not actually for me. I don't like deadlines or I don't like not knowing what I'm doing every day. So you know, it'll be interesting to see of this group whether anyone's actually decides yeah, you know, I really would like to do this. One of the great things has been while it's been on air, various contacts of mine have wrung me to say, I think I could probably offer some work to that person. Yeah, based on like the kind of interests that the different students showed,
So that's actually been just fantastic to see. You know, hopefully some opportunities come up for people, and so if we could kind of get to the other side of this and see some of them landing with some work that they want to do, I'd be so happy.
That would be amazing. Just the influence of the right people watching the right show at the right time really goes to that issue of representation and how powerful it can be.
Well, that's exactly right.
And also just I think to encourage people, you know, if you're listening to this, if you ever see something on TV and you think, oh, I could make a difference with that, to just pick up the phone and think who you know, or just drop them a line via their website or whatever. Because many times in my career people have rung. Like I remember once we had a story on seven point thirty about a woman who had been caught in floods in northern New South Wales
and left homeless. And I won't name the person, but quite prominent, wealthy Australian businessman rang and he paid for her rent for a year while she and her kids got on her feet. Another time, Ben Mendelssohn, the Australian actor.
He rang.
We had this amazing story about this initiative where a mum of a teenager with special needs had organized this kind of dance and it was for other people with special needs because she said it's hard for those kids to ever really go to an environment that's kind of going to be safe for them, and so she'd kind of organized this thing and paid for it out of her own pocket and so on, and you know, they didn't have a lot of money to keep doing it as a regular thing, but we had footage from the
event and the kids had such a great time. And then Ben Mendelsson was watching the ABC on iView in LA and then he got in touch to say I'll pay for another one of those things, and so he just paid for them to have another one.
Wow, yeah that is so cool, so cool. Yeah.
So you just never know who's paying attention total cares and what a difference they might And you can really really make a big difference to somebody if there are employers watching the assembly thinking gosh, I've been wrong about autistic people, or I want a more diverse workplace, but they don't know where to begin or they might be feeling, oh, it's going.
To be too difficult.
I don't know how to support an additional needs person or someone on the spectrum or someone who's neurodivergent. What have you learned about supporting people in that group?
So firstly, there's heaps of organizations you can turn to for advice on that. So one of them is called Employee for Ability. So you can just contact those organizations and say, look, i'd like to have more diversity in my workforce. Can you give me some information. There's plenty
of information just on their websites. And then I think also the other thing is to just look at your own employment practices and see have you got things in place maybe that unfairly weed people out where actually, with the slightest adjustments, maybe you could have a more diverse workforce.
So say, for example, one of the students on our show was really badly bullied in high school to the degree that she's very scared of teenagers, and so it's hard for her to commute in peak hour because you're going to see school kids on the way to school and that freaks her out. So with her internship, her hours are after so she doesn't have to get on the bus or whatever when she's likely to run into
school kids. So just little things like that where you can maybe make some small adjustments that make it easier for somebody to do your.
Friends for someone else.
Yeah, and often also just I saw Dylan Olcott once do a keynote somewhere. He's such a good public speaker, but he was basically saying, also, just ask the person who's working with you, like, how's it going for you? Is there anything we can do to make things but more comfortable for you? How are you managing with this? Again, people I think sometimes are maybe scared to have that conversation, but if you do it kind of in a well intentioned way, hopefully you know it can work for both parties.
I thought Adam Goods was the real master at putting everyone at ease. I was so impressed by that episode. If anyone listening hasn't watched it, and you will only watch one episode, I think that's the one I would wish you to watch because it really just sums it up so beautifully. He just engaged with them on such a beautiful level, and it really changed the way that I think about how you can engage with people, but just small things like remembering someone's name.
I noticed that too.
Yeah, he really remembered everybody's name and just paid full attention to every person when they were speaking to him. All the others, I mean, it was funny. Like Hamish Blake and Amanda Keller, who were on it, they kind of came in and I felt like, look, I can really see why you two are such big stars because you're just so charismatic and hilarious and everyone loves you and they were fantastic, and yeah, it was just it was a really, it was wonderful experience.
I wanted to finish up by asking you, Lee Sales, the master interviewer. You are regarded for good reason as one of Australia's most prominent interviewers. Did you think that you could learn anything about interviewing before this process and what were your big takeaways that surprised you?
Do?
You know, interviewing is one of these weird skills where I think, no matter how many times you've done it, there's still always something to learn because every person that you're talking to is different, and so there's no kind of set formula that you can always follow. There's tips you can apply, but it's always going to be different
when you're in the environment. And so it's been something for me over the course of my career that I've never found ever interviewing people boring or stayed because it's always different when you get into the moment. I think for me in that space, it was just it was more the reminder of things like, Yeah, it's worth the effort to put in to think up original questions, it's worth the effort to take something down a different path.
It's worth listening really closely to what the person's saying and really paying attention, aging with them in that sense. But there were certain things the students did that I wouldn't do, and so I wouldn't get to the same responses they did. Like there was an interview where Savannah asked Amanda Keller, do you love your husband? Now? I
of course would not phrase it like that. She got this most incredible answer from Amanda because Amanda's husband, Harley, has Parkinson's and so it's very much in her mind how much she loves Harley. So actually wording the question like that elicited a really incredible.
Answer from Amanda.
So yeah, there were certain things with the students that I just wouldn't get to myself because I wouldn't I'd never think to phrase things like that.
So season two, are we getting it? I'm hoping. So.
I mean, it's been very popular. It's one of those programs where you notice sometimes if you do something, if it's struck a chord, because when I'm out and about in the community, people stop me and talk to me, and at the moment every time I leave the house, somebody will say, excuse me, I just wanted to say I love the assembly, So it's really sort.
Of struck a chord.
Yeah.
The funny thing is I can't imagine doing it now with a different group of people. Yeah, because I just love all of them so much and it was such a It was one of those rare experiences in a work life where it just everyone clicked. The chemistry with everyone was great. We all love each other. So yeah, I can't imagine doing it with a different group.
I can't imagine it either because now we've got these personalities and everyone's so distinct in their interview style. Yeah, waiting for it in the interview made it's so dynamic because you know, okay that guy's going to ask something really intense, or I love her, she's going to ask something really silly and funny.
Yeah, exactly, And you get very invested in them, particularly when as the season unfolds, you see little snippets of people's backstories and you know what their childhood was like with their families, like and so then you sort of you know, and you can imagine how much more so when you're working with them all the time, like the level of like rooting for them in the moment to like, oh, come on, ev.
You can get it out.
Yeah, it's They're just a fantastic group of people.
It was just brilliant, such a beautiful viewing experience. I highly recommend that everyone check it out. If you're feeling a little bit down on yourself and you need a reminder that being different is one of the best things you can be. Check out The Assembly on abciview. We will pop a link in the show notes. Lee Sales, thank you so much for coming on the Daily OLS podcast.
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
That's all we have time for today, but thank you for listening to today's episode of The Daily OS. Tomorrow we'll be back with good news. But in the meantime, if you want to share the love, feel free to hit subscribe or follow on whatever platform you are listening or watching us on. We'll chat to you tomorrow, but have a great day.
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Runda Bungelung Calcotin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily os acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.