Episode 175 with Kerri Deir and Max Ceron

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Canada Welding Supply , your trusted welding supplier . Happy welding . Hello and welcome to another edition of the CWB Association podcast . My name is Max Ceron and , as always , I'm out there trying to find the great stories that really unify our wonderful industry in this country .

Today I have a great story and a great person here that , I think , is something that is very important to us and our industry and to Canadians in general , and we have Carrie Deer coming to us from the Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work , the CCRW . Carrie , how are you doing today ?

So we have hubs all across Canada , from your end in Vancouver all the way to my end here in St John's , and we work with people with disabilities to help get gainful and meaningful employment things , make them more job ready , help work on essential skills , soft skills , resume building , interview technique and try to do a lot of interaction between them and the

employer to make them the best employee that they can be . And as an accessibility consultant I have a special niche and I work with apprentices in Red Seal Treat .

But as an accessibility consultant , I interact with the apprentices in order to see what barriers there may be , whether that's in school or in work or some sort of personal life that's preventing them from getting to that Red Seal Trade designation .

Are we talking about kind of dealing with , uh , supports and upskilling and all that stuff for everything ? Like , how wide is the breadth of this organization's portfolio ?

So maybe somebody has a learning difference and when they're dealing with their employer they just need things written down differently or something of that nature . Or maybe the person has a physical disability where they need to have crutches or they need to have a chair , that they have to sit and have breaks Upskilling that you mentioned absolutely .

We really try to help people be , you know , at the best of their ability . So their resume is good and they're really reaching out to get their best ability . They're not saying , oh , I'll just do this job because I can . They're like no , we try to enable them to say I can do more . And you know we're here to help you with that .

We can help you with the supports , whether you know , it may be tutoring or it may be something physical , or maybe it is that upskilling , whatever that may be , we work on a one-on-one basis with individuals and all individual support .

So you know , I could have two people who tell me they have the same disability but what their supports look completely different and their journey is completely different now you threw a statistic out there that it's phenomenal .

First of all , that probably doesn't even capture the reality , because that's only the people that will self-declare , because most of this is done through self-declaration . Some is done through institutions , schools coming up , you know , maybe early identification through elementary schools or programs , but many go through life , especially in the past .

You know adults now , without any type of understanding that there may have been a need for an accommodation and they may not be , you know identifying . So you know , in your opinion , what does that 27% perhaps maybe actually look like ? You know , would you like ? I mean , that's already one in four right , that's one in four .

So and , and I mean that's , that's 20 , that's , that's over 10 million , what is it ? 10 million Canadians , right ? I don't imagine you have 10 million clients .

So if you look in a room and you have 100 people , 27 have some sort of disability , but 80% of those 27 , you would never even be able to tell . So there's a lot of masking , there's a lot of hiding .

People hide behind the stigma of being afraid to say , hey , I have a disability or hey , I have a barrier , and they don't realize that there's so many things that can be done to help . You know , when you mentioned the word accommodation 10 years ago or even now , I talk to people , people are like an accommodation .

You're going somewhere , you're going to a hotel for the night . You know they're expecting a continental breakfast to follow along with that , and so a lot of it is educating , right . It's educating our potential employees , right Our clients , our employers , about what does disability look like , because it is so different for everybody .

And one thing that we really try to hit on is disability confidence . So how do we make people confident in their disability , or confident to be able to have somebody with a disability on their team or as their employee ?

And we just came out with a fantastic disability competence toolkit that's available , readily available for employers , and it's fantastic and I'm not just saying that because it's CCRW's toolkit .

And if they're bringing their best self right , the employee's happy , the employer's happy and overall it's just , it's a better feeling . Right , you have that inclusion , you have everything right there . And and are we going to do a perfect the first time ?

Probably not , but by taking the chance , by taking , uh , by being okay with maybe messing up sometimes with the accommodation , whatever that is you don't need any type of disability to make a mistake .

And that's really what this disability confidence toolkit does . It at accommodation , it looks at onboarding , it looks at how can we make it the best for everybody , with or without a disability , to be honest , just for everybody and you talk about the , you know , invisible disabilities .

Well , that's more of a fault of history than of any type of plan , because it should have always been kind of something that we just could work with . And I I remember when I started teaching , coming from industry , going into the education system , I had to wrap my head about around .

You know , even the term accommodation , like you said , it can be kind of misleading . You know , if I see a person with a broken leg and they're walking with a crutch , I don't go up to them and ask them why they have a crutch , even though it's an accommodation . That's a very obvious thing . It's like , oh , that helps you walk until you can heal .

Okay , I get it . I wear eyeglasses , I have a vision impairment . Well , that's my accommodation so I can see properly . These are like the , the low-hanging fruit that people are like oh well , I never thought of those things as accommodations .

Or a diabetic needing insulin at a certain time or all these things that can happen that are like , easy to to see , easy to discriminate , easy to judge . What about the 80 ? That's not easy to see and not easy to judge and not easy to understand ?

When you think someone is you , you know , quote unquote they're normal , but underneath their exterior they're really suffering and trying to work through something , and doing it in silence , which is the worst thing that anyone can do , right , you know ? What can we do about that ?

Or what does your organization think might be like some steps that people can do to start looking at that differently ?

Say , for example , maybe um , equity priority groups , who would call them so , women , indigenous people of the lgbtq plus uh community , uh , newcomers , and you add all these things and maybe sometimes having a disability as well , and how much more that can impact , right ?

So we're saying , if you just step back and you'll see this in the , in the toolkit as well , if you just step back and just see where they're coming from , right , try to understand where it is that they

may need a little help . And a lot of times people get scared , employers get scared by an accommodation oh , this is going to cost me too much or this is going to lead to too much sick time or this or this . You know they get worked up . I helped a lady not too long ago . She was having issues with a tape measure .

Just quickly looking at a tape measure , being able to read , you know the actual measurement on there . We spent $35 and got her one that has a digital readout at the top . It was a $35 accommodation and now she can bring her true self to work . She feels like she has that confidence .

She knows she's not going to mess up these numbers , so she doesn't have that anxiety . And that was the smallest $35 accommodation . And sometimes it doesn't even have a price tag .

Sometimes it's just , you know , a little bit more communication or trying to encourage people in different ways , so it doesn't always have to be a price tag that goes along with that , a financial piece , exactly , or a physical thing ?

We're a national not-for-profit trying to help the industry survive and you know , know , we're going to have 50,000 retirements over the next 10 years and we already got almost a 20,000 person job shortage today and we are running around trying to find ways to get more people into the industry and this seems like a very , a very , you know , are a great way to

connect two worlds that seem to need each other . You know , um , when I was coming up in the welding industry , it was always a thought that the welders were kind of the misfits of society and the trades are kind of these misfits .

You know , we weren't cut out for academia and we weren't la la la , we're good with working with our hands , which I , I 100 .

Try to break those biases because I don't necessarily believe them , but I will say that there is probably a grain of truth in there , that the same people that love to work with their hands and love to be creative and love to do those types of jobs are the same people that don't like sitting in a desk and don't like being at a four-hour lecture and have no

interest in spending four years in university . So there is an intersectionality between those worlds . Now , when you look at people on the disability spectrum , which is wide and can be , you know many , many different things . How many you know ?

There's probably a great section of those people that would fit in so wonderfully in the industrial trades world that we would , and we would love to have them and need them right . How do we get that message out ? How do we help them ? What do we do ?

So I knew then at that point that I had a lot of work to do in some areas .

So we really started , you know , please like , let us help you Anyone who's already within their apprenticeship . We just helped someone just before Christmas . He was 21 years in his apprenticeship . He just kind of never got around to it .

But then also he was scared because he took so long with his hands on the tools and avoided the last full piece of writing that Red Seal trade exam , and he was kind of stuck . He's like I need help . So we were able to help him with tutoring , we were able to help him with a study plan and he was able to be successful in that .

There's a lot of people who are kind of stuck at that in-between stage somewhere in between that aren't getting to that finish .

So not only are we trying to help people who have some sort of disability get into the trades , we're also looking at who are the people that are in the trades who do have a disability or do have a learning difference or a barrier or whatever that may be that's preventing them from finishing that Red Seal trade designation and really trying to educate for things

like this . We have great relationships with a lot of trade schools and colleges , universities , unions and really great community partners and great networking . There we're trying to be able to just say , hey , these are the resources we have . They're great wraparound supports .

We're trying to help people , you know , and we're trying to really help Canada with that skilled trades gap and how can we all work together ?

They end up in trade school excited to be welders and , you know , first day of school we get their accommodation plans and as a teaching institution we can manage that . We can manage that we're in a safe environment . We're 12 students at a time to one teacher and with the accommodations we have . You know , at the college I was teaching at SAS Polytech .

I don't know if they ever reached out to CCRW , but we had people that would come in to help with the accommodations and stuff like that , but those were the people that already had a plan and a plan had been set up for them prior . You know what ?

If someone walks in the door to a training center anywhere in Canada no plan , no , nothing , and maybe even unaware that they may even have a disability that has been hindering them for a while , you know how would an instructor or a teacher that's listening to this podcast say , oh , maybe I should start reaching out to someone or maybe I need to make a

connection here . What do I do ? Absolutely .

If you're finding out on the first or second day that this student has a learning disability or has an issue , and now you're going to try to get everything pieced together to get you know , it makes it really hard . So always having that plan beforehand is great . It doesn't always happen , um , so anyone can reach out to ccrw at any time .

I'm happy to do webinars . You know we have people across uh , across the country , so we're happy to have people go into institutions , that sort of thing .

The issue is , too , is that a lot of times people will be on job sites and they may have worked for many years and all of a sudden they're coming and they don't have that little special accommodation plan that they got from high school . They're 35 years old , they're like I can't read that . I might be dyslexic and they're not even sure .

So we're trying to , you know , really help them as much as we can . I will say one great thing about CCRW as well as we go with the social model of disability . So if you tell me , Max , that you can't read and that you think you may be dyslexic or whatever that may be , then we go with that .

I don't need you to go and have an expensive test or have a doctor's loan . Exactly Assessment . It's no , ok , this is what is . This is the barrier that we're dealing with . Let's let's deal with that and move forward . So we're trying to be more proactive .

But a lot of that is education Right and people really understanding that there are ways to help Right and assistive technology is so good these days . So when I did mention dyslexia right , one of my first gentlemen that I worked with not too long ago um , he was in his mid-30s , I think I might be dyslexic he says I can't read .

So he's like , when my wife comes home from work she works 40 hours a week they had a five , six year old they put him to bed and then she would read to him every night so he could study . You can imagine that didn't feel good for him . Probably didn't feel so good for her .

It was hard on their relationship and I was like , well , how about if we get you a laptop that has , you know , the assistive ? Device . That's right . We can go from text to audio . You can listen to that .

He's like what I told him about an e-reader pen so he could follow along in his books and his sheets , and he had no idea you know what the first thing he did with that pen was . He went to the grocery store because he wanted to be able to buy new things that he wasn't accustomed

to before . So I think a lot of times people just don't know those supports are out there and they can be life changing . Not only do they help with the support of your life at home , they help in your schooling , which helps in your work , which can even help at your .

oh , you know , I'm an adult , I have a job , I do well , I feed my family , I got my kids , but uh , actually I struggle all the time on something that seems like it would be a very basic , easy thing for most people . So there , you know , there's probably a sense of fear of coming out on the I can't even imagine on the job site .

You know , in a safe space , like with your organization , it's probably like , okay , this is private , this is between us , yeah , we're good . But that would be much more difficult situation to say on the job site because the fear of ridicule or fired or whatever it is . You know , do you do ? You encounter that a lot .

So we always encourage disclosure , right , because we feel like it's better for people to be able to say this is what I'm dealing with , this is my issue , this is how I feel , so that the employer , the co-workers , are aware also , so that they're helping , you know , pave the road for people coming behind them to know that that's okay .

But you're right , it's the stigma , it's that feeling of feeling inferior or whatever it may be right , and especially when you get into a lot of the trades um , you know the trades are a bit rough and tumble rough and tumble , big and strong , you know , like all all of those big feelings and then all of a sudden you've worked all this up a lot of times in

your mind because you can imagine if you you know you're embarrassed that you can't read . That would be embarrassing for some people and you know you don't necessarily want your co-workers or your boss to do that right . So there's a lot of asking , there's a lot of fighting , for sure , but , as you mentioned , we are apprentice or client first .

So we would never disclose a disability without being told that that's okay . We do have e-learnings on how to disclose a disability and the importance about it and all those sorts of things , but a person really has to be ready to do that to be ready to do that Now , the framework that they use for schools , you know , with the accommodations .

me succeed ? Um , if you , if , is this possible ? If not , maybe I don't apply here , I don't know . I'm just trying to envision , like what would be like the best case scenario of this follow-through from , you know , elementary school , high school , trade school , work .

Do you want to do a document ? Do you want to like a document explaining yourself almost like a letter ? Do you want to do a resume ? Do you want to do a video Like how can you best describe yourself and show your best self , and how beautiful is that to be given an option of ? You know , some people aren't that great face to face .

Right , equity , diversity , inclusion we're all about adding accessibility to that , because where does the accessibility come in for people with disabilities ? And we're not just talking ramps and a grab bar in a bathroom . Right , we're really talking . You know . Can the words be bigger ? Can the lights be dimmer ?

If that's what people need , right , we're just looking at small things that are going to help that individual . And you're not wrong with saying and you know , I'm car , this is who I am and this is what's helped me in the past Can we work on a program or something to be able to come up with something that works for both of us ?

You know that I can bring my best self to work and make it also great for you as an employer .

People that have succeeded probably had help , probably got to a position of power or of ownership or of leadership , and perhaps could be those mentors , those examples of hey look , I , I got help , I am doing extremely well . I have a big company number of employees , you know . Can this be an example or is that needed ? Do we need those mentors ?

Do you guys have mentorship connections or programs , and are there the business leaders kind of stepping up in in your world ? some great question and sorry , I'm just throwing ideas out .

Um is we're really trying to open up the eyes of employers , mentorship all the way . Right , it's a beautiful thing . And how do we , you know , pave that way ?

How do we say , look , I've been there , I did that and look at where I've come , you know , and and uh , not too long ago I was at um , a women's day event , and this lady uh stood up and she was the owner of this beautiful restaurant and she said how she had started off in the trades and it was a trades event and there was about 70 other women in

the room and they just looked to her and she said you know , these are the things I came across and they didn't think I could do it because I was a woman and my high school teachers didn't think I could do it because I only got 65 in English and all of these things .

You know she's like , but look at me now and I'm so happy to give back to the people in this room . She's like , but look at me now and I'm so happy to give back to the people in this room and I think that's a huge piece . And when people don't disclose their disability it makes it a little bit harder , but when they do , then we have more of that .

You know , full circle connection , and we're always encouraging our clients to give us testimonials . We're always encouraging our employers as well to do the same , because I think more people who know A what a ? disability is B , what an accommodation is , and that it doesn't have to be scary , and how we can piece all that together .

Then it's going to be better for everybody .

Apprenticeship is technically the spirit of mentorship , of having you know a process of being mentored by a journey person , and I think that that's really , at the end of the day , whether you want to give it a label or not is sort of how we succeed in anything is that we have a leader for us to help guide us to where we want to get , even if it's a

tiny step or a giant step , you know , it's sort of just the way the world works and there's nobody that can say they got to the top alone . That's just not how it works for anybody .

Now for your organization , when people are reaching out to you or say a school or an individual , when people are reaching out to you or say a school or an individual , do you or does the CCRW have in-house kind of their own owned programming that they do as these wraparound services that you mentioned ?

And if so , you know kind of some examples of what they are ? And then the second part of the question is do you work with collaboration ? Are you looking to also , you know , guide to say this isn't actually we don't have that .

So we have a lot of great networks that we can leverage . Exactly so we're also always looking for resources , right . So we always start with , yes , we're going , always looking for resources , right . So we always start with , yes , we're going to help you . And then we'll figure out . You know , with our funding , is this an area we can help with ? Yes , great .

Are there some other things outside of that ? But there's other places that can , absolutely . So we work with a lot of community partners and we're very much we share . You know , we cast the net and we say , like , how many people can we help ? It's not like , oh , this is my person , that's your person . It's no .

How can we help our clients succeed and how can we help our employers be comfortable with that space ? And we often try to have , you know , maybe just one , one lead . So you know you don't have 10 people knocking on the door all the time , but always just trying to look out for the best for that client .

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My name is Max Theron and I'm here with Kerry , and Kerry you can drink your water , that's okay . I'm still talking , it's all good . You know we get thirsty . I make people talk probably more than they're used to on any given day .

So , uh , right before the break we were talking about , you know , all these wonderful connection points that can exist either within your organization or other organizations that you can help guide people to , and then also the entry points for whether they're just getting started out or already within their journey and having trouble completing , which I see a lot of in

welding . Many , many welders start off going to school . Very few get a red seal . Comparatively and honestly , as a teacher I would say test anxiety or problems with the written exam are 80 to 90% of the problems . The physical skills is usually the easy one to knock off the list , but that written test can be a real challenge to a% of the problems .

The physical skills is usually the easy one to knock off the list , but that written test can be a real challenge to a lot of people , and understandably so .

I mean , I've even argued that the apprenticeship program shouldn't be using multiple choice and should I mean these are exam type questions that we've learned through education and the study of education that we know are are are very difficult to manage through even without any you know barriers . They're not .

They're not a great way to test people and I think that there's some catch-up that needs to happen with the apprenticeship model in terms of the testing . Now , one of the ideas is the concept of universal design within learning , that you just build things so they're accommodating by nature to everyone .

Already you don't , you don't have to take it apart and rebuild it . The one will will suit it all . Does your you know agency ? Do you have communications with apprenticeship or the ccda or calf or those other organizations to say , hey , hey , you know , we have seen this recurring problem with our clientele ?

Is there something that can be done on your side of the fence to help with this ? Because I know those roads are difficult . I've been on trade boards , I'm a part of the CAF , I do , I go to these things and I know it can be difficult to move those boulders , but do you try ?

So we work with that as much as we can . And so I mean our whole program , this whole point of the government funding is we're finding these apprentices or they're finding us . We're looking at what are their barriers , we're making stories out of that . We're we're , we're dissecting that . We're like what ?

Well , when did this start happening and where were your , you know , where were these stop points and how can we get past out of whatever that might be ? And we're really trying to figure out like , where do we go for this ?

Or you know from this now , and you know , presenting to the ccda , presenting to the federal government , these are the issues , these are a lot of your barriers . You know , maybe some of the testing is a little archaic .

We're reaching out to new community partners or just rebuilding our relationships with different trades organizations and community support groups throughout Canada .

I've been working for company x for 10 years um , they're putting pressure on me to get my red seal , which does happen in some businesses like , hey , you want to move up to supervisor , or hey , you want to do x , you'll need to get that red seal in order to do so . And I've , I've , I cannot or I will not because I am afraid and I get fired .

Those stories do happen . I've seen them happen in industry and there's always some backstory that you're not aware of from the outside . Now if someone like that comes to your organization and says you know , I just got fired because of these accommodations , or I couldn't get accommodations , or I don't know what's wrong , what can you do ?

I guess there's two sides to that . What can we do to help the person ? But I feel like it's almost like can we do something punitive to the business ? Why are you being so mean ?

So I mean , the question you're asking , I think too , also relates back to retreats deals and that apprenticeship , you know , and it's different for every province and sometimes people will sit , just as the gentleman I mentioned , for 21 years in an apprenticeship .

But I just had another gentleman not too long ago who first day of school , he gets there , he doesn't have a place to sleep . He's seven hours away from home because he had to drive so far to get to this school . He can't read and he has nothing .

He has no money , just layer after layer after layer so many layers and he's now there in that classroom , right ? But they told him if he didn't um to the , to the schooling , that his apprenticeship was over and he's going to lose his number .

So you know , now they've extended it and we're working with them , you know , and trying to help with the sets of technology , to help with the reading and that sort of thing .

Of course , of course you know we're not going to make everything perfect , but if we can give that gentleman or person any of the tools they need and I don't mean , like you know , hammer tools , but I mean any of any of the tools , learning tools or whatever that may be then we really want to be able to do that , to set them up for the most success .

But when you ask me , like getting fired from a job , I see it too , Max and it's sad , it's awful . I mean , we're not punitive , that's not what we're doing . We're here to educate and we're here to help and assist and we never want to see that happen .

We're hoping that people you , we're hoping that people you know the duty to accompany Just aren't like that . Yeah , we just hope that as the accessibility roles come out and everyone understands .

I find that many of the unions have done amazing work in trying to stay really up to date with the , the advances in society , to try to make this uh , uh , you know , just more equitable for everybody , and I wouldn't even say it's altruistic in nature at the end of the day , there's like we need workers , right and and like I mean , there's a .

You could put a halo on a lot of things , but you know , it sort of comes down to business at some point where we need x number of hands on tools and we got to look everywhere . And if 25% or 27% of the population could possibly be an employee , if we just did X well , why are we not looking at X ?

You know , and I think about that for many things . I think about that for equity groups , I think about that for a rehabilitation , people coming out of incarceration or the or the penitentiary systems , like I mean , I see opportunity for people that could be , that are really struggling in this world , to do really well in the trades .

And that comes from a very personal place for me , because we were exiled refugees . When we came to canada with nothing and the trades , my dad was a boiler maker , I became a welder and we've had great lives with a billion barriers in front of us , no language and anything . All we did was get involved with the trades , like that's .

It was just that and that was enough to restructure an entire generation of our family . And I can . I see all these people . It's like you can get in there , there's work for you , you Like . We're waiting for you . What do you need ? You know ?

But now it's looking at a career right , we're studying , we're helping to to get apprentices , that red seal trade for really good careers that you know there's a demand for . So how can we truly do that ? And looking at such things as neurodiversity right , nobody talked about that 10 years ago .

I don't even know if anyone talked about it eight years ago , but I can tell you it's on the rise , you know , and if we look at our statistics , we we have a great research team behind us at ccrow and every quarter , right , they're asking us all these questions and they're putting all this information together .

Mental health is really big in barrier and also it's learning disability or learning difference , right , and that neurodiversity piece comes up time and time again which can have an effect on testing um , but also then it's hard to quantify right , but then people with neuro that are neurodiverse , they also tend to spend an immense amount of time on detail .

You know , if you want , you know 10 screws in your barbecue . They're putting 10 screws in the barbecue and they're going to be equally spaced and your well joints are going to be perfect because , they're paying attention to that detail . Right . So I mean , is it even neurodiversity ? It's just a different way of thinking .

And you know , even when we say it's like those memes , the ADHD is actually super human powers .

Not have people stuck between their level four and the red zone trade exam for five , six , eight years , but how do we close that gap and how do we make them employable and inclusive and confident , and confident , absolutely once you have confidence , even a seed of confidence , it really changes your outlook on everything .

Those same barriers in every aspect of all the things they do , from you know buying groceries to getting driving their car to whatever doing their taxes . It doesn't matter , it's that barrier didn't just appear for this test today .

This is something that is a part of who you are as a human being , just like having blue eyes or long hair or whatever it is , and what do you need to make it happen ?

You know like , and it's going to help everything and that just it just boosts your self-confidence , because you probably have been feeling pretty poor about that for a long , long , long time . You know .

We may be able to , you know , give you other resources and help direct you that way . But there is this one lady and I was like I'm just going to call her and have a little chat , and it was I don't know a bit into our conversation and she said can you just hold a minute ? She was at school that day and she said I just I want it some quiet .

And I was like , yeah , no problem . She said , well , I don't think I have a disability , but I'm a victim of domestic abuse . I have PTSD because of that , so post-traumatic stress disorder . I have a clavicle that will never adhere . I have pins and screws in my shoulder . So I have limited mobility .

I had two fractured vertebrae so I have low back pain , sciatic pain and I also have ADHD . I'm I'm like , okay , but you don't have a disability , that's fine

.

So we were able to get her an assessment , a functional capacity evaluation , with an occupational therapist and a physiotherapist . They were able to help . These are some bending and lifting techniques . These are some ways that we can work on strengthening the shoulder . She's still working with them on some um abdominal low back exercises .

We were able to get her some tools that were lighter looking at things that had rollers on them , you know different things that were able to accommodate her on the job so that her job was easier .

Because , right , I forgot to tell you too , her doctor told her that she was going to be in pain , but she was just going to have to live with that so right . So we were just like yeah , no , you don't have to live with that .

Of course I'm not going to be able to help take away all your pain , but if we can give you all these tools that don't be just physical tools , right , but like the education part of that too , of just posture and awareness and ergonomics , look how much better that's going to be on you , right ?

So we're really trying to look at the person as a whole and you know how can we set them up for success ?

It's just so part of everyday life that , well , it's not a barrier because I'm living fine , I'm eating , I'm doing things . It's not like I'm stuck in a bed with no legs , you know , or some really , you know , obvious terrible thing it's . It's like , well , no , I'm good , I'm good , I'm surviving , but that's not , that's not the question , right ?

Any of us can wake up tomorrow with a disability , or , you know , we go outside the door tonight . Nobody knows what's going to happen .

So that number , anyone can join that group at any time and that could be any of us and that could be any of us , um , but another example I was going to say is as we had a gentleman doing his heavy equipment operator um certificate , uh , working to become a red seal , um , red seal tree with that , and he had six and a half fingers , six and a half

digits on one hand on one hand , yeah and so , but he was like that's not a disability , that's just what , that's just my hand , like , of course , yes , and that is just your hand and that's okay . But he was always propping his hand into a five finger glove , because people only make five finger gloves , because that's the typical hand .

Um , and we were able to give a custom glove made , or several pairs of custom gloves , so he could go do his work in comfort , with dignity . That actually had something that actually fit him . You know he wasn't having to fit into what mainstream is .

He was a great kid but he was , I would say , very close to blind . Um , he had a very , very serious vision issues . His glasses were incredibly thick and he really struggled . And now welding is very much dependent on vision . Um , many jobs actually require eye tests in the field when you get up to a certain level or else you can't apply .

It is there's a visual acuity part of some of the jobs out there . So he was really struggling . We were trying everything we could think of . You know , there there's , uh , cheater lenses they're called for welding helmets which help . You know you can buy them and they multiply the size of what you see , your vision . You can buy them . They go up to five .

So times , one time we went right to five . It was still not enough . We tried different helmets , but then they wouldn't fit over his glasses and then he got sports glasses made for his . It was . We were trying .

We reached out to some groups , some optometrists , and had them come in and we were trying to do the best we could do because this kid really wanted to be a welder . But there came a day when we had to sort of think , like , is there something in the welding related trade that interests you ?

That perhaps is not this , because I understand your passion for wanting to be welding and building these things and that's we love that , but we're we're not finding a solution . We're trying but we're not finding a solution . So can you you know ?

Perhaps because he was , computer screens weren't a problem for him he could see you could get you know , maybe , maybe autocad or design , or maybe you could be on the other end of this trade where you're helping , you know , build the things in you know in in a drawing , or we had these conversations and we really struggled .

I remember like in the office with the other instructors , we're all just scratching our heads trying to figure out how can we make this kid succeed . He wants to . We like him so much but we he can't see like he . We don't know what to do . What would you do ?

Or how could I approach you and say , hey , we got you know this kid , we're at a we're at our wits end , and not for lack of trying , will you come to the same conclusion as us and say maybe something else is in your ballpark , or would it be let's just keep trying ? Or both ?

But you know , there are cases , just as you mentioned , um , as an accessibility consultant the trades I see a lot but I'm not the expert on everything , um . So we also have a sister company called anova , and often we'll have them do an advisor assessment , so they'll come in and they will do kind of that next level assessment .

Uh , they have more of an international reach and they have a great research team behind them as well . We're all about research , uh , which is really good , um , and just to kind of , you know same thing troubleshoot , bounce ideas . Have you heard more about this ? Have you had more about this ?

And some sometimes you do just have to , you know , maybe redirect , but for the most part , I think if we all put our heads together , we all really try hard

I mean , that's the concept of equity , I guess is that it's just the same path for everyone in the end . You know what about ? I'm just throwing all these examples out there of like , hmm , what if ? But you know , if you are , what'd

you say ? 43 years the CCRW has been around .

Is it a program that's going to be ? Sometimes programs get cut , things get shifted , or or is the or are more clients coming in , more people getting help , more wins ? Is it , is it trending up ?

We're really trying to pave the way for people with disabilities , for people of equity priority groups , for anybody who's having any sort of barrier in the trades and we all know there's lots .

Anybody is having any sort of barrier in the trades , and we all know there's lots and we all know that we are in dire need of bringing more people into the trades in order for it to be a successful Canada Right .

So , from all the things that we're finding with the high number of mental health , with the high number of learning differences and learning disabilities , even just being able to understand physical disabilities , and how we can , you know , bring that into the workplace and be okay with it . I think we've learned so much through this apprenticeship program .

I can't see it going away anytime soon , you know . And when you ask , you know , kind of the funding for it , we have the funding there . Some people , like I mentioned the lady with the measuring tape . She was a $35 touch .

You know , sometimes we had people come in and all they need is , you know , they just need some tutoring and they need a study plan because you know , their exam is in six weeks and they just they can't figure out how to study it .

And we can sit them down and say , guys , look , this is what this looks like and here's a great tutor and we can cover that . Or sometimes we have tutoring that's complimentary as well because it's his own , you know equity or entity , and that's great too , so the touch doesn't always have to be big or expensive . So the funding is there .

We're looking for more apprentices every day . My hope . We're looking for more apprentices every day . My hope is that we get to like the top of apprenticeship so we can be like hey , hey , government .

These are the things that we found and as soon as someone walks in the door , that's ready yeah , can we go and we and do more , and can we make it so that every province or the ccda has like that framework to say , oh you have , you know , people with disabilities or equity , equity deserving of priority groups ?

Here's some things that we can work with to be able to make that an easy kind of come in the door . We're already ready for that .

And you know , because this is the other side of the story you are involved in our steel trades . You are involved in apprenticeship . Now , inadvertently , through your work , you are now a part of our world , right , and a lot of what we do on this podcast is talk about all the different pathways and touch points of these industrial trades .

Now you are a part of our industrial trades family , whether you ever thought you were going to be a part of that or not . How did you end up in this role ? You know what , what sort of tools ?

If someone's listening and maybe they're a welder right now and maybe they're doing very well and they're thinking , I would love to help , maybe I could go work for a company like ccrw , maybe I can offer , maybe I can start my own not-for-profit .

You know what skills and tools to someone like you have to have or or you know , has to do your job , and I guess how did you get to sit in the seat you're in ?

I worked for many years in physical rehabilitation and I specialize with people with acquired brain injuries and with people with moderate to severe disabilities . But now that you're supposed to have a favorite client . My favorite client had an acquired brain injury . He was actually an electrician and he got hurt in his .

He was in a car accident coming back from a job and so I worked with him for a very long time and through that , you know , I saw his job be taken away , I saw him having to rehabilitate himself and then I went on to work into community health care , which is a big thing in Ontario community health teams , and I was a thing in Ontario community health

teams and I was a health promoter there , so really trying to help people that had any sort of chronic condition . So sometimes it was disability , sometimes it was more related to , you know , education around osteoporosis or diabetes or things like that , so it could have been physically working with them or educating and I really just I loved all of that .

And then I just love what CCRW does and helping people with disabilities and when the opportunity came to work within the trades . I really felt like , yeah , you know , like for that favorite client of mine for many years , I would love to advocate in that space . I think it's such an important space to be in for a variety of reasons .

I also think it's a hard space to be in , uh , because there are a lot of you know , those biases that are already .

I've seen people get hurt , lose their jobs or come back with . You know what did I say once Don't call them accommodations , call them empowerments . You know , someone come back with the empowerments that they needed in order to do their jobs , but it still wasn't easy , right ? Because there no easy that's , that's not an easy situation period , you know .

So let's put easy aside and let's do the work that needs to be done right type of thing . And when , when you look at that spectrum and the biases and all the things that need to happen , I think it's a big uphill battle , but it's not necessarily that it's one big hill . It's a big uphill battle , but it's not necessarily that it's one big hill .

It's a lot of little hills spread across a wide plain . You know what I mean . Yes , that's a great way to look at it . Yeah , and so like it's just a , you know , like one at a time .

We'll take them out and we'll work through it that you work with and there may not be an answer , but which do you feel perhaps is the most successful in getting people into back to work or to you know , to to cross that finish line ?

Is there a trade that you're like , hey , you know what , this one , we got a lot of stuff for , and then there's a trade that's like we haven't cracked that night yet .

I think people are taking it down and even though you know some of the accommodations that we provide through that social model , if the social model is not recognized at the testing end and it's the medical model , then we can't really help that .

So much so , but you're seeing a lot more of that medical model going away and the accommodation being able to be there , and COVID did help that a little bit with being able to do .

So you know , I've talked to a lot of the apprenticeship agencies in provinces and they're not really sure because also , you know that you know if it's three hours for that test , then that's only three hours for that test and there's no way around it because it's , you know , on a computer .

Standardized yeah exactly , unless they do have that special accommodation . So I mean , there's different , there's different ways to look at it . I guess we're going to , you know , figure that out too , as we go through the bumps in the road . I'm sure you know , figure that out too , as we go through the bumps in the road , I'm sure .

But I think we have a lot of people now listening and now really trying to understand . You know , how can we make it better and how can we move forward with trying to make it barrier free ?

our interview . I want to ask a couple questions to kind of wrap it up yeah , the first . the first one is and I want you , I want you to dream big here what's the what's the what's the what's the end game like , what's the perfect state of this ?

What would be the process from start to finish , from like even stem years , like grade five to seven , you know young person thinking about trades , getting the trades , but they already have an accommodation , they're already this is happening .

How it play through , if it was just to be truly equitable , what's the process that you envision and this is big , like I mean Cole's notes , I guess , but I think about this stuff all the time- yeah , I mean , I think accommodation is really important .

There's so many , so many great qualities about working in the trades and I think for so long it was like oh , if you're smart , you're going to university . Not that you needed to or wanted to . If you're smart , you're going to university , not that you needed to or wanted to .

I think it's really just making sure that people know that they can do anything they want as long as they have the support . So having that accommodation is great , but maybe they need more than that . We have people now that still go out with an accommodation .

Their high school diploma looks the same as the person next to them and then they get into trade school or school or university , whatever that might look like , and that that accommodation kind of falls apart because it doesn't fit . It doesn't fit the learning style or the parameters of you know what that college block might look like .

Um , but I think I think I went two different tangents there . But I think if people are educated at a young age of knowing you know that there's so much potential in the trades and if they do feel that they need an accommodation , that that is already being worked on and in place , that that will help bring success the timeline of start to end .

If those biases that we have ingrained in society uh , you know , not even in our systems , but even in our households and the way we communicate with our children about you know work and people and differences and similarities more than anything between us all you know that would be probably a much bigger step than trying to systematically correct it from the back

end . You know , because we're kind of chasing the problem after it's already been created instead of trying to fix it in the beginning . But that's sort of what ends up happening when it has gone this long right .

But we also touched on that stigma and that not wanting to disclose , because you know the bullying feeling that way Well , that doesn disclose , because you know the bullying feeling that way well , that doesn't usually come from the employer that comes from your co-workers , that comes from the people that work around you , you know .

So I think if all of this is taught from a young age to be kind to people , to understand that you know just how you feel is not necessarily how someone else feels , and we all work differently , we all think differently , and that's okay . That's actually really cool , because if we all thought the same , we all acted the same .

Well , that'd be pretty boring , wouldn't it ? So I think a lot of it is just , you know , if we , if we can think better , we can believe better and we can all do better .

We do trainings for employers , we do help with apprentices , but anybody who's looking for upskilling or anybody who's looking to get a job that does have a disability , we're there , we're ready to help , and we're also always looking for collaboration with other like-minded community partners . So always happy to work with people like that .

But thank you so much for the interview and , I guess , for the people listening . You know from my personal point of view , you know I have an anxiety disorder that I got diagnosed with probably 30 years too late , that I struggled , had a reason to have struggled , gave me so much more confidence to work on trying to solve that problem .

So it's such a big step for people and I've been very open about my mental health on this show for you know , for years now and I think that it's important to just allow it to be a conversation . Just allow it to be a conversation . It doesn't need to be taboo or weird . We're just humans , it's just normal , like absolutely and and right .

It's probably not the best example , but I know what you mean I know what you mean all right . Well , thank you so much , carrie . Is there anyone you'd like to send a shout out to , or hello , or anything like that ?

And our disability toolkit can also be found at our website , and that is a great place to start . If anybody would like a , a walkthrough or a talk through of that , there's always somebody there that would be more than willing and more than happy to do that . So reach out at any point and we're happy to give you any more information that we can .

We're always looking for new great content and we're always looking for new great partners and great agencies and companies that are doing good things , and we want to spread the word . So reach out to us you know where to find us and stay tuned for the next episode . We hope you enjoy the show .