So hello, everybody. And thank you for joining us. And I'd like to introduce you to Bethany Harris. And, Bethany, tell us about yourself what you do where you are, I came across you, obviously with the study you're currently doing. But tell us about what your tell us about your journey and where you are today and a little bit about you.
Bethany Harries:Sure, so I guess I started my journey. It was back in 2016. So I originally was a personal trainer, and decided I needed a career change, just mentally and physically burnt out and exhausted. And I was always interested in public health and health promotion. So after doing a bit of Career Research decided that I wanted to become a health psychologist. So I enrolled on to psychology degree with the Open University. And then after that, went and did my master's in health psychology, and now I'm on to the PhD, which is the final stage to becoming a fully qualified health psychologists.
Roz Chandler:Wow, that is a change. I mean, obviously, PT is all about health, more bodily, the mind health, but some mind health and you probably crossed over thinking, gosh, there's much more to mind. Yes, definitely.
Bethany Harries:Definitely.
Roz Chandler:So tell us about what you're currently doing. And your PhD. I mean, this is this is some study, and I'm really interested in what you're currently doing with your PhD.
Bethany Harries:Yeah. So my PhD it's half funded by the University of Surrey half by RHS Wisley, and it's really looking at the design and use of gardens to optimise wellbeing outcomes. So obviously, there's a lot of research at the moment that suggests that spending time in nature and in gardens can boost our health and wellbeing. So it's really kind of looking at the the fine tuning the elements of what is it about gardens and within gardens that really does promote well being and health outcomes.
Roz Chandler:Wow, when did you start that?
Bethany Harries:I started January 22. So yeah, January.
Roz Chandler:Yeah. So tell us what you've worked. I mean, a PhD? I don't know how long you've got what you got three years, five years is four years, four years? Oh, in the middle, four years? Yeah, right in the middle. So your PhD is obviously about being outside and mental health. So how do you start that way? What, what do you start with?
Bethany Harries:Well, so this was what I had to get my head around when I obviously started the PhD, just reading all the literature, getting my hands on as much information as I could about nature, health and well being in particularly, like therapeutic and healing gardens. So obviously, I'm a psychologist by training, not a garden designer. So I had to get my head around all that literature, in the world of garden design, and, and I, one of the first things I did was kind of do a big systematic review. So I looked at all the different design recommendations for healing and therapeutic gardens, and kind of analysed all the all the things that everybody was saying put them together in a nice paper, so I could identify all the features that make healing gardens,
Roz Chandler:and what are they? I'm intrigued.
Bethany Harries:Oh, there's, there's many I think it's about kind of fostering a sense of, of serenity, kind of creating a calming and relaxing environment, encouraging wildlife and birds into the garden. With including like water features, people love the sound of running water, trickling water, using lots of plants, multisensory plants, lots of variety, lots of colours, lots of sense, lots of textures, textures. Creating nice little spaces, like for privacy and seclusion, so little nooks that people can escape, escape to and feel like safe and secure, yet have like big, open and expansive views. So that they can see out as well. Yeah, lots of things.
Roz Chandler:So therapeutic gardens are generally where, where are they? I don't know very much about them.
Bethany Harries:No, neither? Well, they're not really you don't really see therapeutical healing gardens in the mainstream, like everyday places. But it's at the moment. I think they're more in places like health care facilities, hospitals, rest bikes, like hospices care homes, things like that. Seem to be where they are mostly based.
Roz Chandler:So we'd like to it would be amazing to get it into mainstream, wouldn't it?
Bethany Harries:Definitely. And this is where my research is coming in. So we're looking at basically, yeah, optimising the design of guns for just general population as opposed to specific clinical populations. Which it might be similar might be a bit different. But yeah, it's, um,
Roz Chandler:it's bringing some of that in everybody's garden, I would think, because personally, I love the sound of water. And I like I've got a little Mediterranean garden around the back of my house where the sun comes first in the morning, and that's very sort of Zen because it's got sort of water feature, and I really love it. And then yeah, you're right, a little place which you tend to feel the garden quite open, and you have a seating area, but it doesn't necessarily evoke privacy or a private space that's normally removed from it. It's by the side of my pond, and I promised myself every day I'm going to sit there and contemplate and I never do that. It's all about that. It's about taking time out in nature as well, because we're very busy doing our gardens, that's for sure. And obviously, as a flower farmer, I'm really busy flower farming. And you kind of forget that. Actually, we should just do sit there and have you lunch on a piece of a log next to the pond and eat a sandwich and therefore contemplate, but I think, yes, so four years is a long journey. So how, how have you done so far? What have you found out so far? It's quite exciting.
Bethany Harries:Yeah. So obviously, I started by doing that, the big review on design literature. And then my second study, which I've just finished, I basically got visitors to RHS Wisley to walk around the wellbeing garden with a little survey, and I asked them to stop at specific points in the garden and just reflect and take a moment to kind of notice their surroundings and acknowledge how it made them feel and then just identify what emotions different aspects of the garden evoked in them. And by doing that, I was hoping to identify specific features or design elements that can evoke different emotions in people with the aim of informing design, obviously,
Roz Chandler:wow. Because it's I mean, everything is its texture, its scent, its wildlife, its face, its water. It's yeah, I don't know how much research is out there. Now on on all of it.
Bethany Harries:There's a lot of research on kind of, on the benefits of being out in nature in larger landscapes such as like woodlands, and big parks and things like that. But in terms of actual, like cultivated gardens, there's not that much there's a lot of gardening, the benefits of doing gardening, but just not a lot of just passively sitting in a garden or spending time in a garden.
Roz Chandler:Wow. And what happens? So four years is a long journey. You've done one, you've got three to do, what happens at the end of it? Where do you go at the end of it to see the end?
Bethany Harries:Hopefully, sometimes I don't see. No, there's always light at the end of the tunnel. I think, obviously. So I've got another study that's going to be running in May. And then after that,
Roz Chandler:they start that one because I'm joking. Yes, you are. Yeah.
Bethany Harries:So at the first week of May, we're running a study, it will be a year from the second to the fifth of May. And then I've also got a couple of days later in May, for anybody who misses up the first week. But basically, I'm inviting participants to come to the garden at nine o'clock, which is before public opening hours, which in my opinion, is one of the best times to come to Wesley. And all it will involve is doing a short survey, and then I'm going to get people to sit in the garden for 20 minutes. Some people might have an activity to do, it might just be sitting, and then come back, do the survey again. And then after that you can you're free to roam the gardens, and spend a day at Wisley. And we can also offer a five pound gift voucher for you to spend in the gift shop as well.
Roz Chandler:Wow. Okay. And you've your how do people sign up for that? Because I've signed up for an email, I think, who are HS? I can't remember how I actually received it. But I've signed up because I thought it was quite interesting.
Bethany Harries:Yes. So we've got lots of recruitment adverts out. I think there's there was posters out at whistling. I've also put a couple of posts on Facebook, and Instagram. I think there's one on Twitter as well and LinkedIn. But basically, if anybody's interested, they can just email me. I think are you able to vote Yeah,
Roz Chandler:with email? And
Bethany Harries:yeah, so yes. So just drop me an email so that you're interested in participating and I can send all the information and the details. So how
Roz Chandler:many people you're looking for?
Bethany Harries:What would be your I've got an aim. Just got an aim. I've got an aim of about 90 people. And so far, I'm almost halfway there. So yeah,
Roz Chandler:yeah, I'm sure. Come on. So let's get yourself down to RHS. And help us out and try and find the benefits of you know, being in being in the garden just from a mental health point of view, because I have studied it and I've looked at it. And you're right. There's a lot about gardening. And I know that in co COVID. 7 million people took up gardening and it was lots of there's lots of writing about mental health and gardening for sure. And I know that RHS Wisley, we're doing a big study, Aren't they on the sort of mental health and well being of gardening, which is not the same as being in a garden. What we tend to do is be really really you lots and lots of gardening and we do very little sitting in the garden. So it's to encourage people to to okay, do the gardening because that's very good for your mental health and well being and physical and everything and touching soil has massive benefits. We know that and then combining that with a moment of just sitting there and reflecting and how do we how do we encourage people to to sit there and do nothing which is pretty hard.
Bethany Harries:It is it And I think that's where you really do get the most benefits when you just take the time to sit back, notice what's in the garden, notice how it makes you feel and just be a bit more mindful about the garden and your surroundings. And that is one thing, actually, the participants in the survey study that I've just finished a lot of the feedback I was getting, people come in 10 surveys back to me, and they're saying, Oh, it was actually really nice doing the survey because it made me stop and think and reflect about how the garden was making me feel, which I don't normally do. And so that really got me started in this whole How does just passively sitting in the garden versus actual gardening? Implements wellbeing outcomes? So yeah, I think there's definitely an element of mindfulness that needs to, to be had.
Roz Chandler:Definitely, I can't wait to finish your PhD. Along the way, will you publish anything? Or you along the way? Or do you want to publish along the way?
Bethany Harries:Yes. So I'm planning to do my thesis, which is, is what will get me the PhD in the end by publication? So every, every piece of research that I do I intend to write up and have it published? So I'm in the process at the moment of trying to get the systematic review that I did, published? And then yeah, just each one I'll keep going with,
Roz Chandler:and how do people get there? How can I get ahold of your published research?
Bethany Harries:Yeah, so there's a lot of a lot of research now has been published by what's called Open Access, which means that the published research is accessible to the general population, as opposed to having to be in academia and through licencing, and things like that. So hopefully, it will be accessible, just by having a quick search on Google Scholar. Yeah, yeah, that's
Roz Chandler:the place to look Google Scholar. Is
Bethany Harries:it so scholars a good place? Yeah.
Roz Chandler:I shall be looking out for it. And I'll be really interested in it. I mean, I've spoken to lots of people I've obviously spoken to Aleister at the RHS about mental health and wellbeing gardening. I've spent this book to Maryanne Boswell, about regeneration and sort of gardening and the way that how we create our gardens is really important. And she's a landscape designer. And I also spoke to a psychologist in California, who has done a lot of work on sort of mental health and well being and gardening, but not a lot about, I know, I don't remember seeing anything about just taking time out and thinking but I suppose the two go together, because you've got to have done the gardening to have the garden that you want to be able to sit in because otherwise you're going to be sitting there with us, it's actually going to be quite the opposite effect, because you're going to go hard, all those weeds. And instead of a sort of saying, oh, there's weeds are encouraging butterflies, isn't that wonderful? You can, I've still got more work to do. And, and I think we tend to assert as a flower farm, I go out, you can be quite overwhelmed. If I wrote a list of jobs, everything you had to do on the farm that day, it would be like, Oh, I've got time to sit and watch it. So it's how you fit that in? It's quite interesting.
Bethany Harries:It is, isn't it? It's, I think there's a fine balance because there is evidence in the literature that suggests that sometimes gardening can become like a burden and a stress. I think when you're too involved in it, and you notice all them the bits that need doing in the garden. When you're sitting there it can become quite stressful. So yeah, I think it's a fine balance of of allowing yourself to just sit back and relax and enjoy the beauty of what's around you, without worrying too much about trying to control it.
Roz Chandler:Well, I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it? I haven't done a bit of research. The reason why Guardian is really good for people is because you're in the moment, number one, and you can't think about tomorrow or yesterday, it's just about now. So it's about the now. So I think that's why it has massive health and mental health benefits. And also you cannot control it. So we're all at different levels of trying to control our world, some of us are more controlling than others. And I have two children who are very controlling, and, and they want to control everything. But it doesn't kind of work like that. And I think in gardening you can control nothing.
Bethany Harries:Is that nothing? Yeah. And I think I think that's a big part of of anxiety and stresses and worries in daily life. It's because we're trying to control everything we're trying to, we're thinking ahead into the future. And we're trying to, we're worrying about what's going to happen and how we can control it. And I think gardening is a good way to teach you that you can't control everything. But sometimes you do just have to step back and let it be.
Roz Chandler:You can't control the weather. You can't control what's going to grow or not grow. You can't affect his family. You can't control nature. You can't control the green fly on your roses, you can't control. In fact, I'm not really quite sure what you can control in gardening very much. And I think that's a lesson to us all. Maybe that's why it works. I mean, I'm sitting here looking at my bookcase and half of its full of gardening and mental health and mental health and gardening and regeneration gardening. And I think I need to yeah, I've also got a book called rushing women's syndrome, which about women rushing all the time and never stopping. And the hilarious thing is I've never actually finished it. So I think maybe that book needs to come back out again, to read again. So well you inspires you to do all this obviously a massive career change and a real U turn.
Bethany Harries:Yeah. You know, I, I've always had a love for nature and being outdoors, I was very lucky when I was a kid, our garden backed onto woodlands. So as a kid, I was just always out playing in the garden in the woods. My mom used to tell me that when I was a little toddler, she would often find me five o'clock in the morning outside in the garden, and my wedding boots and tutu just running around in the mud. So I've always just loved being outside. And I've always found kind of a solace in as well, when I'm stressed or anxious or just worried about stuff going outside. It just helps me and I think over the years, as I've kind of developed my research interests, I've seen the benefits therapeutically, like when I was working in while I was doing my undergraduate and my master's degree, I was working with children with complex neuro conditions. And I really, really, it was there that I saw the value that nature had on these populations, and I saw the therapeutic value that nature could have. And then I got interested in green social prescribing, which is basically prescribing nature to people. And so that's where my research interest started to develop. And then, yeah, I think just just my love of nature and the value that I see that it can have for people that kind of inspires me to keep going with this. So green
Roz Chandler:prescribing. Tell us about that. And what that is I'm really up for green with Bing.
Bethany Harries:Oh, I know. I mean, so Hippocrates, the ancient Greek physician and philosopher, there's a quote by him that says nature is the best physician. And he was so ahead of his time, because I really do think it is. And I think, where a lot of people are now suffering from chronic conditions and disabilities, and modern medicine hasn't really got a solution yet for it. And we're now seeing the value of social connection and social prescribing, which is basically prescribing people to social community groups to help their health and well being. And a branch of that is green social prescribing, which is prescribing nature based activities and therapies to people and help with their health and well being. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of research on the specifics of like, who, what, when, how, so that GPS feel confident enough in prescribing nature to people. But the evidence is building and it's getting there, I think more and more people are seeing the value of therapeutic horticulture and nature based therapies. And the interest is growing. So hopefully, maybe over the next decade or so we'll see it become more of a prescription. But I think, I mean, if if nature could be a pill, it would probably be the most prescribed pill out there.
Roz Chandler:It's trying to get to that, isn't it? Because I've often thought about social prescribing and thought about green prescribing and, and I'd be quite happy to be involved in that in some ways. But might you say it's really it's infancy? And I'm not sure if I went along to my GPS and said, Do you prescribe, you know, do do green prescribing? I'm not even sure they know what it was.
Bethany Harries:I know. And I think that's the thing. It's about raising awareness and more, as I say there is a growing interest in it. But a lot of physicians, they're still not aware of the benefits that nature can have for their patients. I think the other thing is that social prescribing and Greentube social prescribing, it relies a lot on like community organisations and a volunteer groups and things like that. So yeah, it's about connecting with GPS and general practices. And there's, I know a lot of GP surgeries are now getting link workers, which are they're basically employed to link patients to community groups and nature based groups. So yes, it's growing, but I think it will take time.
Roz Chandler:Yeah, I think it's getting those groups as active as well the other way around both ways probably about getting those groups to link up to their local GP surgery. Running, I run a number of online courses and the lots of people in there run community gardens, and you know, they're running a social enterprise, or they're involved with local communities or schools or whatever. So those groups exist, how far they go to get green prescribing, or what they can do about it is quite challenging, I think. And I think the sort of missing bit in the middle. And I don't know what can be done here. That's maybe that's another reason.
Bethany Harries:It really is. Yeah. It definitely needs more research into it, as I say, like, there needs to be more evidence for GPs to feel more confident in prescribing nature to the patients. Obviously, with with pharmaceutical drugs, there's a world of evidence and literature that they can they can, they can evidence they're prescribing practices on but their nature is not quite there yet, but it's growing. I'm confident it will get there. Hopefully,
Roz Chandler:with things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, borderline personality disorder, all of those because my daughter is a psychotherapist kinda feel like, and actually her psychotherapy came out of her. She She was anorexic, and then went through recovery. And she was at musical theatre school. And then we pulled her out. And she then we trained as a psychotherapist. And interestingly, you know how life changes, doesn't it? Yeah, she's now working in recovery clinics and with adolescents. And it's the same thing, really. So I believe that whole thing, that whole green prescribing could be amazing with that group of, you know, adolescents that run from 16 to 24, who never really been out in nature and sat in it, or never really understood it, or had a go at it. I had the opportunity to do it would be amazing.
Bethany Harries:Definitely. And that's the thing, isn't it? Because when you're out in nature, or unless you're gardening and you're trying to control it too much nature, it doesn't demand anything from you, it doesn't judge you. It's just, it's there. And it can be adapted to so many different needs and so many different abilities that it just it really is such a well all rounder kind of cure, not cure. But yeah, definitely therapeutic
Roz Chandler:100%, when one stage of my daughter's recovery, she was in the Amy Winehouse because Amy Winehouse has a sort of foundation. And they have a house in Hackney. And it has about 20 individual flats. And you have to be female between the ages of 18 and 25. I want to say, okay, and you can move in, but then I have a garden there have a garden, which they all got involved in, and I got involved in and you can kind of see the benefits of just going outside in the garden. And they're all recovering. So they're recovering from addictions, maybe alcohol, maybe drugs, maybe anorexia, bulimia, and it's an addiction response clinic. So, and it's sort of Well, man, that kind of thing. And people have never heard of it. So there's a lot, there's a lot of education, that's still gotta be done around this whole. You know, my daughter often says to me, Oh, mom, it'd be great, because when I inherit the house, I can turn it into a clinic, and it'd be great. So it's already got all the pharmacy on it. And I could run all the session Oh, wait, hold on a minute, for that one yet. But then kind of outdoor space is what would be perfect for a Recovery Clinic.
Bethany Harries:It really would be, I think, is what it's kind of, it's taking your mind off of things, isn't it? Like you say it's it when you're gardening, it's in the now so you can't think of, of whatever it is that's on your mind, whether it's an addiction, or, or just general anxieties and worries, like you're focusing on on the plant that you're attending to. And I think when you're nurturing plants as well, and you're paying attention to, to the life of the plant, and you're growing it, you're it does give you a sense of like purpose and meaning doesn't it? And joy just in pride growing things. And yeah, I think that definitely, it helps your self confidence and your self esteem
Roz Chandler:instead of achievement, isn't it? It's kind of like, you know, throw some direct sow seeds in the easiest sent into a patch of really small soil, in a balcony on a window box, whatever it happens to be, and watch it. Exactly, yeah. And you know, nature will turn that seed does that absolutely want to grow, and you have to do some really pretty awful things for it not to want to grow. So if you watched it and went every day, and I mean, even now, you know, after 12, he has a platform, I'll go and get really excited about today, my day is sprouting, you know, and I kept looking at it over the last week, and oh, they look a bit dry. I'm not sure they're going to do anything, or things are really not great. And you go today, and all of a sudden they prove that they're right. And you're wrong.
Bethany Harries:Yeah. Is to say, me and my partner, we've got an allotment. And then so we've obviously we've been sewing all our seeds getting ready things to go. And for ages, since the peppers aren't growing, they're not going to germinate. They're not growing, and then all of a sudden, they just sprouted up and are so excited. Oh, yes, they've come by even a tiny seed. And yeah, because the amount of joy that it brings. I
Roz Chandler:mean, you look what that seed becomes is amazing. And when you think of a daily tuber, which is the most ugliest thing on this entire planet, and then it's dry, it's shrivelled, it's dirty. It's the most unattractive thing I've ever looked at. And then all of a sudden it becomes the most attractive thing. I know. It's amazing. That's a lesson to us all from horrible things come great things maybe that Yeah,
Bethany Harries:yeah. So I think that's another thing about gardening and kind of spending time and go into it passively noticing the changes that happen throughout the seasons, like things that are ugly or just a tiny seed or an ugly ball grows into something so beautiful, but then it dies again. But then it comes back again the next year and I think it helps us kind of attune to the cycles of life and gives us kind of a bigger perspective
Roz Chandler:on my a bigger hope a thing. Definitely, yeah, because I started taking a photograph of the same spot on the first of each month. So that you could reflect when it's really bleak. And it's like, oh, look at this, it's all just looks dirty, and there's nothing you can to lie. And it all looks really awful. And then you take it in spring, and everything's coming. And then you're in the middle of summer, and it's well overgrown, and then you get to the autumn, you've got all the beautiful leaves, and then you get round again for winter, because I'm in the UK, we're really blessed for four seasons. But sometimes we look at it No, gosh, we're in winter again. But you know, winter can be quite useful. So I've started to do that the first of each month. And it's quite startling to see how it develops.
Bethany Harries:Yeah, I might do that. That's a good idea.
Roz Chandler:first of each month, has seen sometimes I look at it and go, because I sometimes I realise how far things have come in a month. So
Bethany Harries:even day by day changes have like, because obviously in the winter when it was bleak and gloomy. We planted our tulip bulbs, and we're waiting for them. And then they've started growing and they're flowering, but over the last few weeks just by from the changes in the morning to the afternoon and it grown so much. Oh, it's so exciting.
Roz Chandler:You're may see the time lapse on tulips, because they go so quick. There's a bug. Oh, no, I'm a flower.
Bethany Harries:Really quick. So I wonder if I sit and stare at it all day? If I'll actually see it off and go.
Roz Chandler:Mental health if you did that
Bethany Harries:would be Yeah, definitely. Definitely good meditation.
Roz Chandler:So if you're on a desert island, who would you take with you?
Bethany Harries:I'd probably take my partner. I've been well, I met him shortly after school. So 16 been together almost 11 years now. So yeah, I think he's probably the only person that could tolerate me on a desert island.
Roz Chandler:And presumably awarded books and some research while you were there. Or, you know, things you could actually get out. You could probably finish your PhD. If you don't mind. You might need some Wi Fi. But maybe pile of books, maybe in a pile of magazines might be quite
Bethany Harries:useful. I'd be quite happy. Yeah.
Roz Chandler:So any thoughts on future plans then when this all comes to an end? Well, ideal job,
Bethany Harries:my ideal job. I would like to continue doing research, obviously. But I think like your daughter, I want to like open up a practice that has garden and niche based facilities that I can basically be run a nature based therapy practice for myself. We want to hopefully one day in the future by a small holding, so I would like to make that into a therapy.
Roz Chandler:That'd be amazing. Hopefully, whereabouts do you live Bethany near RHS Wisley Do you?
Bethany Harries:Know, so I'm actually based in Horsham West Sussex. Yeah, so I just under an hour to get to muesli but I don't mind. Don't mind the drive. It's got a nice scenic drive. So it's not too bad.
Roz Chandler:I've actually interviewed somebody from down your way. Who runs a social enterprise on compost. Okay, really interesting really is one of another one of our podcasts a guy called Michael Kennedy, really interesting person I could have spoken to all day and he talks a peep. He goes and collects food waste from people around and then all around Brighton. I think he's at the moment and he goes, Okay, it's food waste and puts it in one area, and then makes compost through specialty compost machines for food. And then the people who had their food can have some compost back and then he sells the rest of the compost. And then he's involved with Louis football club when he has a market sort of garden or community garden as part of the football club. Because what he's trying to do is introduce footballers, we're not traditionally interested in gardening, but to football, to the fact they could garden and the other way around gardeners introduced into football. Expect the two to go together at all. So he's Have a listen to podcast. He's really interesting sort of regeneration and how we make compost. environed environmentally, you know, he's, he was really, really quite inspirational. I think there's lots of people around. That's fine.
Bethany Harries:Yeah, definitely. There is lots of people, lots of people to look up to.
Roz Chandler:Yeah, definitely, definitely. You so people can get involved in this study, we'll put it in the show notes. Keep me involved. When you've published any research that will be really great if you drop me an email, and I can let people know where it is. That will be really fabulous. But I want to wish you all the best with your research and it is an absolute missing gap. It's amazing that you've managed to find this and do a PhD in it. And yeah, it's not just about gardening. It's about being in the garden. Yeah, that's it can have some strapline about that.
Bethany Harries:Yeah, yeah. Enjoy your garden after a hard day's gardening. Yeah, sit and relax and just take the time to enjoy it.
Roz Chandler:Yeah, because that's another weed and other plant. We haven't done this and haven't done that. And that's not the point at all. So that's
Bethany Harries:just enjoy it. Just notice all the beauty around. Yeah,
Roz Chandler:brilliant. Yeah. It's lovely thank you for coming over today I really appreciate it and anybody wants to get involved it'll be in the show notes and I want to thank you for taking the time out with us today
Bethany Harries:lovely Thank you for having me okay