Warhammer Armies Wood Elves Deepdive

Right, so here we are. This is the 9th episode I counted this time. So we are actually at the last sort of standard army Boops, there's one left, the Chaos Wolves. And then we, I think we talked about doing a a white list episode specifically and perhaps something about the Realms of Chaos books if that would be a separate episode somehow. But yeah, would be, yeah. So we will almost have 12 episodes. We started this in August last year so it's been a while now.

Yeah, that's that's actually an interesting point. Actually 12 websites because there there's someone post on Facebook that day or next time would health month comes around like what would you mean next time would health month? What you mean we're now doing this as an annual? I don't know about I don't know about recording these again, I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe maybe a monthly thing is is something to possibly to try and motivate?

We had a few ideas right for more stuff like the the White Book and the the battle reports, the spells and its potential for more. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's other ones of these we can do for sure for. Years of sense. Of course, yeah. I don't think this is really hard work because it's just, you know, talking about the stuff we love. So I think definitely entertain ourselves for some time.

This is true. Yes. So all right, President, here today is of course Dave as usual and Matthias and Leo Leopold. And you were in on? Which one was it the previous episode you were on? I was. I was on. Chaos, Chaos, yes, of course. So that's great to have you on because I think both me and Dave are a little bit, well, we're not actually that experienced regarding what else in 4th edition at least. I don't know about your experience previously, Dave, but we will see about that soon.

So we're quite happy to have you on, Leo. Yeah. So what else for me? Well, the first time I really collected because I don't know, I started around 199394 and I was buying just bits and pieces and would have came out in 96 maybe. And that's, that's the first time I took seriously, let's say as a, as a kid. Yeah, and I don't know how long before 5th edition the Would Have's book came out. Wasn't too long before the new edition, was it? Months. It. Wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we'd had a short period in purely 4th edition, but I guess it lived on in 5th edition, the same book, but we'll start as customary with the what happened before 4th edition? And So what do we know about what else in 3rd edition or previously? Yeah, So I'm not sure about first and 2nd, but, but generally speaking for, for, for 3rd, what else are kind of the main elf group. I don't need that word. I hate the word factions. I'm not going to use it, but they were, they were the main,

would the main elf group really. And and mainly because the the Jessie's elf models were, were kind of generic. They were just elves. It wasn't they were one or the other or a couple of models were definitely wood elves. But generally, you know, just elves. But they were treated as the wood elf range pretty much. And Marauder did did a few wood elves, they did some sea elves as well. But they did a did quite a big dark elf range and and said there are obviously dark elves

as well and city range. But but generally speaking for elves like high elf, wood elf, sea elf, they were kind of considered your good olds. And yeah, good olds were the main one of those. They had bow rules in it. They had 36 inch range, which which came into the wall because, well, they in the world book obviously in the fourth had a -, 1 to save. Didn't have that in 3rd. But not a lot of things did have minuses to save in 3rd.

You know, even a double handed weapon was only -1 to save it wasn't -2 So you didn't really have modifies it in that way. But the the wood elf list in in 3rd was like most lists, you had maximums and minimums that you could take. You had to take a minimum. I'm just trying to get to the Stallings. I'm trying to get to the list in my, in my electronic version of the book, but it was like 30 arches was the minimum you had to take. And they were just a basic troop type.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I mean they're, they're, they're still elves. So they're elite in terms of compared to a human. But 30 basic Archers was your minimum for the army. And then it was free reign after that. And once you covered your 30 Archers and the main troop types of wood elves, as you'd expect were mostly bow armed troops. So you so they had three standard missile troops. So you had guards, which were their elites and they were guards armed with with long

bows. You could also give them double handed weapons and Spears and Shields if you wanted to. Then the next rundown was Lord's Bowman, so they were a + 1 elite and they couldn't have any additional home weapon choices. And then Archers, which were your basic, and as I said, you have to have at least thirty of those. You did have Blade Runners as well, so skirmisher types, although to be fair, almost every model in the Woodhouse army could be a skirmisher if you wanted to.

They were very Trixie, which translated into other additions as well, obviously. Warrior Kindreds, which were your basic warriors. War Dancers, Yeah, they were there cavalry wise, they had two levels of cavalry. So you all had Elvin Lords, which were elite cavalry and then wood riders, which eventually became Glade riders in in 4th edition. They were but but even then you could give them bows and yes, they could skirmish, but they were they had Spears, had weapon shield as as standard.

So they were supposed to be like ranked up cavalry wool wanes. So yeah, the the Chariots. Chariots always confused me about woodhalls. You know, how the hell are they running Chariots in the woods? Yeah, you know, that's that's, that's a weird one anyway, not. Most most practical solution I think to move. Around. I think they cover that in the in the Army book they say that they they leave just around the forest, not in the. Forest, Yeah, OK, yeah, still don't really want.

It's a bit sort of woodish elves. Yes, exactly. Yes, yes, Woodish elves. Yes indeed. Then you had Beastmasters who classic models. They could have either packs of War Hounds, big cats, boars or bears. The boars were a bit weird because they weren't war boars so they were quite a lot smaller than the ones that the orcs Rd.

so it looked a bit weird. You have shape changes in units, so kind of like fanatics go into units you can have shape changes in and they could either transform into giant walls, boars or bears, where's in effect falconers as well. So you'd have units of skirmishing troops that used Hawks and I don't actually know how they work tree. I've never never encountered them. I'm guessing they're kind of like a missile group.

Well, they sent their they sent their birds out to attacks on then they flew back and worked kind of similar to missile objects, I would guess. I don't know. I've tried them. That's something to investigate. Actually. I should have done my research before. I'm sorry you got tree men, but you didn't get dryads. Dryads. Well, no, you did get dryads, but they weren't the same. Dryads could be part of an ethereal host.

They were just considered to be wood spirits, not kind of tree men as they became in in the 4th edition book. But yeah, that's that's kind of list. Allies wise they could ally with halflings, high holes and zotes. There's zikes thing in Yeah. Zikes were definitely a thing in YEAH in 3rd edition and they were major powerful zikes. They were nasty things. Yeah, well, they bell coasters as well. Or could be.

Well, they could have Wizards, yeah, they were zikes weren't all spell costs, they could have spell costs, but just generally they were like, they were akin to a dragon ODA in power though, you know? And I don't mean dragon over a fourth, I mean dragon over 1/3, which is really very powerful. They weren't quite that hard, but they were almost there. But you could have units of them is the problem.

So, so very terrifying. And then they could have like a monstrous host, which includes bears, boars, Dragons, eagles, swarms, and war hounds. So that's kind of how you got your individual eagles or or a dragon into the army. But they could also have packs of war hounds and packs of bears and packs of balls running around. And then your ethereal host has said ghost spectres, spectral mounts, right, whites and wraiths.

And the idea of dryads would be they were like a form of ghost or spectre or white or like that. That's something. So. So you kind of interpreted it as it fit the army for an ethical host, Yeah. That's. That was then. Quite a fun list I must say. Quite diverse. Yeah, they were like, you know, they were my brother's army growing up. They they were his first and foremost choice army.

You could argue between that and Autumn Gomes, but pretty much it was those two were how he started and because that's how he started and he dragged me in because he needed an opponent. That's what I thought. So I generally played the orcs and got pummeled by his Woodhouse. OK. Yeah. So maybe that was an answer to my next questions. If a question if they were good in 3rd edition, it'd be powerful. Oh yes, no, when I was in in 3rd

ish were annoyingly good. I played them a little while ago, I'll say a little while ago, probably about five years ago or so with my, I just painted an Imperial Dwarf army and I painted them and yeah, there, there just was no way I was getting near him. He, my brother basically took units of Archers, skirmishes and so war machines weren't going to do much damage to them. And every time I moved closer, he moved further away and kept shooting me.

Nothing I could do about it because they moved 5 inches. I was moving six, well 10. They they could move up to it was reserved because it wasn't marching. It was reserve move. So so they could shoot, they could they could fire move, you know, whatever they wanted to do and they were scamming, which is as well. So, you know, there was minus to my shooting on them. It was just it was a bloodbath. There was no way I was going to

beat him. So the only way you could actually put up a fight would be if he was assaulting you in some sort of scenario? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that was never going to happen. Yeah. And then also got to bear in mind for magic item wise, there were there were a fair few, not lots, but there were a fair few magic magic arrow types, including of course Halo Demaro, but other things that that got rid of our Mercedes and stuff like that. So they they just they're nasty.

They're they've always been just. You know, they don't stand them fight that classic, I'll say that classic. That's not a classic line, but the the line from, you know, the five armies. I think it's Billy Connolly's character. He says something about them. You know, fight like a whatever, you know, Woodlands fight, that sort of thing. Yeah, that's what they are. They're a pain. They're not like fighters. You'll stand up and fight or darker stand on fight and give you a proper fight.

We don't do that and they're horrible. I guess they could in theory, but maybe that's not the optimal build. No, no, no they don't. And if, if they are going to, if you are going to fight them, then it's war dancers and they don't fight. They just. No, no, they do their dancing

thing and that's also annoying. Yes, it sounds like you're a real fan of Woodhouse. I love them and I want to paint some myself but I hate them as well at the same time because I face and not been able to lay a bead on them. Although, although I did, I did have one game where I again, this was third, but I did manage to land a rock on whatever general and killed him in the first turn. So that was quite satisfying. But aside from that, no Lord else was going to go my way in that game.

That's your one success it made. It made that for years of frustration. Yeah, exactly. It was, it was just wow. But it was it was during your time. I was trying to be. You have to understand the games between me and my brother are he's like, he's like my best friend, admittedly, right? But games against because he's my brother. It's blood feud, right? So no quarter given. And we get pissed off if the other one's winning, right?

So, but I've tried to know that. I've tried to be, you know, more serene. Don't get like that, don't get like that. But yeah, I have to admit that he did slip in that game and there was a bit of rejoicing at. So are you avoiding this set up now against your brother with wound elves is to not get first I'll. Try to avoid them yeah, if I if I came from he's playing wound

elves. It's kind of, oh, maybe I can't make that game all right, so. Yeah, there we have a rundown of how annoying they were in 3rd edition. So Leo, do you have any experience at all a later point from 3rd edition or is it just 4th and forward? I've never played third, so just from 4th onwards and and I kind of stopped after 6th, so so yeah, played them in fourth. Yeah. So I guess we will move into what actually came in fourth edition.

So like we said, the book came out quite late in fourth. So it rather quickly moved into fifth actually. But yeah, you talked a little bit Leo, about your start up with Woodhouse. So just quick summary of how it all started and what got what sort of made you make Woodhouse your first army? I can't really remember.

Yeah, I, I, I started playing and I was, I started with better Masters and then I was, I'd like bits of pieces of empire and orcs and goblins and then they would have came out and they were a bit different, I think. Interesting. It was not like the big blocks of minis. It was also quite new. Like like new. New. Drawings a new whole new range of minis. I don't know, it felt exciting. There was some, some like cool stuff like the war hawk riders.

So I, I, I got really interested by them and I started and I mean so obviously I was a kid like I was instead like 1012. So it didn't go very far. I was not a big army. I was painted with defeats but but it's the first army I I properly collected and I I still have them, the original paints and everything. Yeah, so I, I don't own the book, but I'm looking through the digital version. To me, it feels a bit like, yeah, it feels a bit like it has already the aesthetic of 5th edition a bit.

Yeah, a little bit. So maybe the move towards 5th edition that's already sort of started in a sense. But of course it is still 4th edition, so that's fair. So what do you think about the book? Also, are there different versions? Did they actually get a 5th edition book as well or is it 4th? No it was the same but they changed some of it. So like the book I have here is the fifth one because it refers to battle magic spells but they, like the book, has changed between 4th and 5th.

Yeah. So do they have the same 2 versions that they have one with the sort of sample armies in the end? Is that how you identify the 5th edition one or? Yeah, this one has a simple arm, Yeah. Yeah. I had the French one post edition but I don't know what it is. It's probably just fell apart. Yeah, OK. So of course they have the normal stuff. They have some of the the background, the origins and so on.

I don't know if that's changed anything from the earlier editions to both edition how they were described. Oh, yeah, because this, this book is where they came up with the idea of like the two, the king Queen, you know, Oriel and Orion being what they are. Maybe it'd been hinted before, but there was no definitive, you know, or splitting down the glades, things like that. It was just, you know, they lived in Atheloran and plus the other wood, other woods in the

in your woods. That's an interesting point actually, is fourth kind of tried to make out that they they they lived in Atheloran. That was it. Yeah, previous incarnations of them were kind of that was the biggest population of them, that they were elsewhere. I think later on they came back to the idea that they were in

other places as well. But I think 4th kind of really hints is trying to say it's the 4th edition book anyway, is trying to say this is where they live, they're here nowhere else. But yeah, the whole different kinds of glades that divide might like pine glades and whatever other ones like ash blades, whatever. That's completely 4th edition book completely new. And then they've, you know, they've added in a few kind of events as well that had never

been talked about before. Because really, I mean, in all other 4th edition literature, what else aren't really mentioned that much. They can't. They can't mention that they exist, but they don't talk about them, really. No, yeah, I I think they are probably given up on the faction on the army at some point and decided later on to revive it. Yeah, which is weird to say, because prior to Forth you'd thought that would have been Hiles, because Hiles were not. They're in the Army book, but

they weren't no one really. There are a few that did but but generally they weren't really collected. Wood Elves were the main good old factions. It's weird. There was that shift in maybe, maybe possibly because they were trying to get an idea of what Wood Elves would be in the in 4th edition. Yeah, a little bit of. It's funny I did not have this context and now that you say that makes sense.

But to me, I have spent so prevalent prevalence in in 4th edition it's it's hard to believe they weren't in 3rd. Oh, even the scenario in in the in the 3rd edition rule book, there's, you know, forums last stand famous scenario from it. They're meant to be wood elves. Everyone plays them as high elves now because they're they kind of divide down better into high elves in in modern context. But they were originally they

were wood elves. So would have were were big, big players in in the Warhammer world back then. Context as well, of course, is they're already in the old world as opposed to having to come to the old world for a new fan, which is what the heights would have to do in sea elves and dark elves will be coming from Nagross. So it kind of makes sense that there is that they would focus more on wood elves as well because they're already here.

But yeah, it's they they really were kind of ignored up into. I mean, there's there's one battle and I love it. There's one battle report the the wood elf won against chaos dwarves, isn't there? And I love that battle report. It's I feel really sorry for. Wood. And not played well. Robin Jews does not play the wood elves well. He, he, he really doesn't walk into the chaos dwarf battle. It's, it's really a very strange

army that he picked. He he, I think he had wood elves in my high elves in mind when he picked that army. Yes, it's a rank and file type of army. And it just it just isn't that's not the wood elf way, but and that used obviously the white army list as well. The white army list is is a really interesting wood elf list. I actually really like it. I think it's a really nice wood elf list.

You've got to use it right, obviously, but you know, you, you've still got beast masters in that list and you've got elf Knights weapon skill 5 rather than Glade riders weapon skill 4 or bliss skill 4. So you know, oh, your charity is still 4 stage. Yeah, but they're only two crews. That's that's the charity in the wood elf book. Of course, you've got three men as well. So it's it's a nice kind of bridge between 3rd edition and 4th. You could it's definitely evolution list.

You can see it evolving into what became the 4th edition Wood Elf. Book, yeah. OK. So they probably had some ideas at that point, but it developed further. Yes, still wasn't quite there. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yes, between those two. So they had a bit of time to do that, I guess. Yeah. And I remember also there were the white dwarf, that report that was sort of a hybrid, third, fourth against what else? Against the Empire. Oh yeah, yes, yeah, the dwarf

coalition one the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was an interesting one where they used the sample rules for Empire, but I think it's mainly the 3rd edition, the weird one. Yeah, for the rest, yeah, it was. It was an experimental time, wasn't it? It was. It was certainly built up. And the magic rules weren't the 3rd edition magic rules, but they also weren't the 4th edition ones either. So it was definitely a testing

game. Yeah, and I think they used the new artillery rules for Empire, for example. Yeah, the reason for the dwarfs as well, I'd have thought in that game. Yeah, yeah. Clearly. Yeah. So that was as you said not too much attention up until the armour was released and then 4th edition was pretty much over. So 4th edition were perhaps not the prime edition for would have. But of course as you said you could still play an interesting list in with using the the whitelist. So it was possible.

I don't know how popular it was, probably not very popular since you didn't have much support, but I'm sure there were players who enjoyed 4th edition. Yeah, I mean, someone like my brother who already had Woodhill Farm, you've been using the whitelist. And we did play quite a few games. And I, I, I definitely remember games playing against them, small games typically. And there was, you know, I remember that. That's where I actually learned the Jade Dec actually isn't as

bad as people think. The J deck can be quite effective if played right. Yeah, I think it's more about actually supporting rather than Root's strength and sort of exactly staffing your opponent. Yeah, with what else that kind of works as well. So that's that's kind of useful. Yeah. So I definitely have memories of playing the whitelist or rather playing against it, not playing

it myself. So they they were definitely used by people and Britannians would have been the same, you know, if you already had a Britannian arm, you're using the whitelist and any army up until the arm, but came out you used that whitelist. So yeah, you just happened to be that for Wood elves it was. Well, no, actually, no. For Britannians it was the longest white, but when elves were were almost the longest white. Yeah, it wasn't too much time between the Wood Elves and

Britannia, I would expect. It's like. Now for five months something that's. Yeah. Cool. All right, So maybe we'll start looking into the actual. I think one other thing about the book is the the range of things, because it was all new. Every single model was a new one for this this edition. So I, I think it's a mixed range to be honest. So that's good. I still think the Jess Goodwin's range is probably better. Yeah. But maybe it's nostalgia I'm not

sure. But the war themselves, the the Spearman the are probably better in South edition, The Archers and the the Knights probably better in force. But it's very subjective, of course. Yeah, that's, that's very subjective view. Yes, that's that's the, they're the ones, yeah. Which? Ones fight fights, yeah. I've got to say the only ones I think that are better in 4th edition are the Warhawk Riders and the Dryads. The Dryad The weather model for dryads in sale though.

They weren't. Yeah, OK. And the, the war Hawk riders say yes, No, I, I, I do, I do like the Glade riders, the the, the newer ones. And no, yeah. They're not for me. Horses, those horses. I hate the horses. The the horses. Bergen. Sorry, no one second. Yeah. I like, I like. I like the dragon as well. Yeah, the dragon is very nice and. The the three men. The three men remain the same. They only released Dothu, which to be fair is a bit worse than

the other scones. Yeah, I love the fact you said it because I was about to. Yeah, the the three men is of course and. So mid range and and they didn't really release the full range. It took a while to to get the I like the Weight Watchers, the scouts less so. Oh, the scouts. Are beautiful models actually. But they, I think they they just feel very different from the rest of the range. I. Don't know scouted them but they don't have the same vibe as the rest. We never get got Chariots and.

Controversial, but I actually think the Scouts have the same vibes. The war dancers, Yeah. Yeah, because it's the big weapons. Yes, yes, but. Really ridiculously big weapons Almost almost. Which elf size weapons from? Yeah, yeah, pretty much almost the size of the models, yeah. Yeah, you can tell with the war dancers that the chap tried to make them slightly, you know, more elegant. But yeah, but it's not as good as. Quite good, yeah. Now that's really quite huge.

And I mean, they have two weapons. It looks like they would weigh like 15 kilos each or something. And and then you've got the cocktails, and the other couple of Hokies comes from the generic cocktails. But the special characters were generally terrible. I mean, I am known as one of the worst models ever done, right? Do you know what I think it was about the Woodhelves? OK, they're not bad sculpts, but then you look at what came

before. If you're coming to them fresh, they're not a bad sculpt, you know, they're not a bad sculpted army. But then you look at yeses and you go, oh, they're so much better. You get the same, you know Colin Dixon loving to bits, right? God rest his soul. But it's the same with the Scaven. You look at his Scaven and then you look at Jesse's scope. Jesse's just the best sculptor they've ever had. When? You look at his scape and you go, oh, but they're so much

better. It's you know, it's unfair really, because you've got all these guys trying to, you know, especially the wood elves, because the wood elves were new. It was kind of starting to use the new sculpting team, wasn't it? The, the young, the young sculptors. OK, you had more of you do quite a bit of it, but he was teaching it. But if you just and and you know, and, and I said it's not terrible by Longshore, but they're just not, they're just not just work. No, no, that's true.

No. No, but definitely some classics that has held over time. And as you said, the treatment for example, has lost it. And there was the 3rd edition and I I saw recently that Trish was releasing some new new sort of old style treatment as well. So yeah. We're getting there. I'm going to buy them. They look gorgeous. They are definitely in the same style of with additional kind of modern twist on them.

They are definitely a homage to them, which you know, to be fair, I was talking about this to my brother actually because he said why would you do that? Why? Why not release something completely new? Because there are people out there that didn't get those original treatment but want those original treatment and they go for ridiculous money on eBay. So if Trish makes some that are very similar, they're going to buy them, guarantee them as well.

The Chronic Command is proud to be sponsored by Scott and Black Arrow Minis. Scott has a range of second hand miniatures from several manufacturers which include Citadel, Grenadier, Ralpatha, Battletech, and many more. Collections that I enjoy poring over are the old Perry Empire, Ally Morrison's Marauder Dwarves, and the old metal models for Epic Space Marine. So go take a look today and head over to Scott's website at www.blackarrowminis.com. All right, so welcome to the second-half.

And now we're joined by Hondo, who is also a would have player from Spain. And you've been on one of these before? I don't remember which one. Yeah, I was in Skyrim. Yep, Yep. So yes, if you can just short summary of your earlier experiences of would UPS. Yeah, I remember when I started playing, I didn't have much money. Sorry, I didn't have miniatures of books. But a friend of mine has much more money than me and he has

all the books. OK, So he started buying all the books, so he was lending me regularly. So when I got there, there was about two shocks in the in the game for me. There was the escaping book, which was amazing, and then the Wooddell's book. I remember the book the forces. I said, well, there is something different in this army about the theme, about the atmosphere. And with time I found definitely about the way to play it. So from then I there was a long time still I would like a rear

with a 20/30/20 something years. But in the meantime I have lost a lot of battles today. Particularly I have lost the first first prize of two big tournaments against Udel's and none of them were with the Udel player winning. Both of them were drawing and both of us losing in the first place, so I have some. Yeah. OK. Yeah, Yeah. It sounds like you had sort of the same experience that Leo did, that it was sort of a different book that played

differently compared. To. Yeah. And also perhaps Dave's experience that they are tough to meet. Yeah, it was funny. You actually mentioned tournament and I think it just kind of makes me think a lot of the what the white articles around that time were about tournaments and what else were a big tournament favorite army, weren't they? I guess because they were. I kind of get the the feeling I said I'm really played 4th edition. What else myself I can't get.

I think they're a win big or lose big army. I mean, if you, if you play them in the right way, they can be very nasty. If you play them as a rank and file army, I'm certainly going to work. You just like use everything you can. The Warhawks, the scouts, the the Weight Watchers, all The Archers. It can be very, very frustrating to play against, almost to the point that it's just not really fun. Yes, absolutely. So. So to me, it's kind of don't

feel of a tournament army. I kind of almost built to be you. Can you mean optimization lists? Sure you can. You can optimize, or you can balance things a little bit and make them pleasant to play against. Yeah, you can. Yeah. But no one's going to do that because special. Breed Yeah. Do you want to play a thematic game? Maybe you could get away with that? That too. Exactly. Yeah. All right, so. But if we start to look at the actual list in the book.

So of course all lists start with the general and. Well, I I think before you start with the list, you you have the special rule of the army, the army archery. Yeah. So long. Army wide rules. 36 went 36 for long goes and -1 save modifier which is very good. Yes, yes, of course, for four years exchanges do a lot. And of course -1 Dave is also really great. Yeah, yeah.

And. There's a special rule about serine placements where you can add some woods like generator, which I don't see many people used anyway. Oh, there's what? What? What's the chat from New Zealand? Who? He recently ran a 5th edition, I think it was a 5th edition tour, and he used Woodhouse. He said he's like he was to plunk wood right in front of his big block of Woodhouse vouchers on a hill. OK. Yeah. No, that's the tactic you can employ 100% you can, yes.

Is it fun? Yeah, it's a bit. It's a tournament move, yeah. So maybe most would have placed in a tournament, they would bring their own woods to make sure they had some place. All right, So yeah, that's pretty good. Army special rules in particular, of course the bow rule, which makes the would have bow the absolutely best missile weapon in the game. I would say. I don't know, maybe you would disagree, but definitely just advantage.

Range of -1 If it was strength 4, which would also give it the -1, it would that probably put it as being the absolute best. There are arguments that crossbow is more useful, yeah, shorter range, but. Yeah, and I mean the way the. Crossbows. Can't. You can't. You can't move and shoot with. Yeah, no, I agree There are there are reasons why you, you'd argue that the the Loombo is better, but I think it becomes a debate if you put that. So on the strength four, I think

there's more of a debate there. But strength 3, there's still all right. No, sorry, no, it closes the debate. I think if you put in strength 4, it ends. There is no debate. Yeah, of course. So strength three with -1 save it's not quite that, you know, against walks and stuff. It's still going to be rolling 5 plus to wound. So with strength 3 it's there's still a debate that's open.

Soon as you put it to strength 4, thereby also giving it the -1 by the strength by default because it's strength 4, then I think it's that's it. You close off the debate. It is the best missile weapon in the game. Yeah, because as you said, a normal Longbow is in most cases inferior to a crossbow, but the wooden bow has of course additional advantages. So yeah, so good stuff. And yeah, the, as you said, the forest rule is more annoying perhaps, right. So maybe then we can get into

the the list. And like all armies, you need a general. And yeah, nothing spectacular there I suppose. I I think it's the theme across like all the characters. There's there's not really anything they original that's like get general battle standard Euro champion Wizards or. I I, I think Leo, you might have Matteus questioning that just because in all the analysts after, but probably start starting with no dwarfs. Starting with dwarfs probably. I know Orson gobs, I guess, but

basically he's an empire player. So he doesn't get ogre characters, He doesn't get halfling characters, he doesn't get dwarf characters. Well, he gets bog stands. So there is no argument in here. There is at least one different character in here because you've got your ward as a champion. The witch health characters, you get scathing get plague monk characters. So there is a little bit of

variety across on the list. Certainly Task would say no, they get a lot of rights compared to me, although obviously his list isn't that one of the biggest. Varieties yeah, yeah, it's always a shame you know in the original list of course and in the both army book the bestiary could have those special race characters we can have a ogre Lord and whatnot but yeah, they. I mean, you know, you've got point cost at least somewhere to include those.

But like what's what's missing here is like you don't have any triads. You don't have any. Triads you. It's just I think this they did a good job with the values for this. The the characters like a bit of flavour. You get the war hawk as a as a mount. You can do Childs. So that's interesting. But that's it for you and the world and SO champion, but it doesn't really bring much to the table. No. I think it's quite a lot. It worked out the character rules and left it there.

They they didn't expand on it that much in the yeah, no, I get what you mean 100%. Yeah. And then you could of course have a better standard bearer, which, you know, had the problem that all BSP said. I guess they had one wound and in the case of Elf's toughness of three, so very vulnerable of course. So generally what was your, did you use that standard bearers as sort of default or was it? Not really, you know, not

really. And I think one of the reasons is that so OK, they've got high leadership, but also your army is kind of spread out everywhere. You've got scare missions all over the place, running around, going high in lines. And so it's less useful than for an army that's really like cooked in a block. Yeah. So the leadership bubble will not really cover too many. Yeah. Yeah, fine too. For a a Woodhouse army which is in too many places at the same time, it's not that good.

The Bible standard there. But it's there's also the thing that for most armies, you take a battle sand barrel so you can get a magic standard into the list. Yeah, wood elves, you're rude of every wood of Archers could have a magic standard. So, you know, if you want to get a banner of wrath into the arm, you could easily do it. You know, if you want to get the firestorm icon from Chronicles of War into the US, you can do it, you know, with with your

rank and file. It's it's and they don't need that, you know, a unit of Archers. What what do they need a magic banner for? They're not really going to get into close. OK, if they do the case, it helps, but, you know, if they're in close combat, you've probably lost the game anyway. Yeah. So what do they need a magic banner for is going to be for that kind of thing. So adding to the, you know, to the magical and to the missile fire coming at you, Really. You're not going to give them a

bad remind is my point. You know what I mean? It's it's you're a dream. You're a dream banner. Probably not. Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, that's a general thing. I suppose the first lists were much more restricted in that sense. And I guess in particular Empire, who none of the sort of state troops could have a magic banner on their own, but just a few Knights and so on. So yeah, so moving on to heroes, of course, basic hero, more or less.

I don't know if there's any difference between would have some the high of heroes. For example, if the. Same. Exact same. Yeah, just. Maybe 11 comment is that heavy armours don't exist for. Yeah, Yeah. I think that's quite in in character. You don't run around in full plates in wood. That would be would be OK. Yeah. And then we have champions and as you said, we have the sort of the default champion and then we also have the ward dancer

champion. And I suppose, was that an auto including ward dancer unit, the champion? Not necessarily. I mean, we, we, we talk about the world and cells, but world and cell are best used in small units to to block any units, delay them. So you don't necessarily need a champion for that. They're not hard hitting units anyway. So that extra bit of a punch doesn't? It's not. Yeah, I guess maybe you could sneak in in some sort of magic item to improve them somehow. Half. Of world.

Yeah, horrible. Yeah, that's always fun. Well, sort of techies or something like that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could give them anything. Though Yeah, the. Black The black gem of now. Yeah, something. You can do something like that to shoot. So you tell me you can be a bit more seriously than I am, but

he's got magic on being. Silly Yeah, I remember see I recently read some 5th edition better report and that was what else and yeah yeah and both sides said like black game and were and Yep so to. Make that the crown of command as well. Yeah, yeah, there were some items that were definitely good. So Major standard, the set up of four levels and they could have, well I guess in 4th edition they could have. Which colleges was it?

High magic for the for the 4th level 1 and better magic for the rest for the. Yeah, I think in the in the actual 4th book use like level 1 could only have some colleges, not all of them. Amber. Those are just the number. Yeah, maybe, but. There's something like that. I don't think that makes us, I suppose. Yeah, I think it became like Level 3, you could have any, any of the colleges and then.

Yeah, something like that. Yeah I think it's level 1 and 2 is Amber and Jays Level 3 every college and level 4 can have high mic. Hold on, I've got it in front of me. Let's have a look. Hold on. Woodhouse. Woodhouse. Mage Jade, Ramba Champion Jade Ramba Last Mage Jade, Amber and one colour. And then Mage Lord High. Any colour. OK, Yeah, cool. Yeah. So a mate slaughter would have been the same as a high elf mate slaughter. Yeah. Yeah. Spoiled for shots, Right.

So they didn't have their own medic, obviously. When did they get that? Some sort of what's that, 6th edition? They got that sixth. Edition. Yeah, probably they had. Yeah, they got. Their 6th. Yeah, yeah. I in my opinion it makes sense with the background because I have always thought the level 4 with us are the oldest ones, the ones who came to the old world with the high elves and stays in the old world. So it makes a lot of sense for me.

And the other are younger ones so they haven't learned high magic back in also. So they are like, you know, the other kinds of magic then they did below this magic in six and it's OK, but I prefer it the other way. They have high magic. Yeah, that's yeah, makes sense. Yeah. All right. So, yeah. And that's it for characters, of course, same as pretty much everyone else. You had general heroes, champions and majors, and that's

pretty much it, right? So we'll get into these special characters later if we go buy the list. So regiments, we talked a little bit about the Chariots before. Maybe that was before you joined us, the sense of having Chariots running around the forest. But maybe if you're thinking that it's sort of in, not exactly in the forest, but they live. Sort of, yeah. It's like the hedges of the the edges of the forest. And yeah. OK, maybe maybe it doesn't make

sense, but I don't care. I love it doesn't make it makes sense. OK, but I don't really care. I love the chariot. And so I remember in the book there says there was big plains inside the forest because the forest is huge. So there were places where there were no, no trees. Some were plains. And the charges were there, but doesn't make sense. But I love one of them, Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Does that mean have to dismantle them to take them out of those places to get them to the wherever the battle is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of IKEA style Cheryls, easily disassembled. Yeah, it comes from the whole idea that Woodhouse accounts, doesn't it? And and Celtic warfare, you know, there were quite a lot of Celtic tribes that. Yeah, they have the warping.

That you that you charge that's where the idea comes from it's just then you start thinking about a bit deeper and going to actually hold on they live in forests. This doesn't quite actually make sense, but there we love it so we'll keep it anyway. You're right, Andres, it's a great image and that old wall way model the the four horse one with. The Oh yeah. That's cunning. Yeah, I think quite hard to get

these days, but very, very nice. But I suppose they got a new charity in 4th edition, did they? A new charity? No, they. Never did a would have chariot beyond the one. OK. So yeah, even then it might have been a bit difficult to get one. But you could use the the Tyranno crime one, yeah. Maybe replace the crew and. Point it slightly differently. Yeah. Oh yeah the horses would have been an issue.

You'd have had to use the 5th edition one for it to work properly because otherwise your horses were in too small compared with your Glade riders. Yeah, yeah. And the sheriff itself, I guess it's not too different. Stand out. Yeah. You can have wheels, you can have up to four horses.

Yeah, 04, yeah. And I guess maybe that would have been a good idea if you added a few extra to, you know, soak a few missile fires, because of course that was the danger with all the Chariots. Just any random missile fire could make it mobile. Yeah, true. It's weird the way that the kind of the speed reduces. If you have two horses, you lose, you get down to 1 horse, you're still moving at half speed.

If you have four horses, you lose three horses, you've got one left, you're moving at quarter speed. It's kind of a bit weird in that. Sense. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I suppose it's to have your child. You have four more seats maybe. Well, it just means you're still move. You know, you can lose horses and still be moving, but it's just kind of your, you know, chariot moving at what, 2 and a bit inches per turn? Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least it's. Moving. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Yeah, you can. You can imagine the the eldest push in the chariot. Yeah, and you can also use it as a mount for characters. Did you do that or did people do that? Yeah. Was it a good choice? Not. Not a lot. I mean I I don't think it's a bad option because worst case the character can then go on foot, but I didn't really do that.

Well like this, unlike other elements would have army Chariots were unable to move through woods without penal wood because the axe was the accept the fact that it. Was you see? There's even halls that kind of say this is a silly idea, we're leaving it in any way. They they had you in mind when they wrote that. Yeah. Right, so let's move into the other fast Mubus, the Glade riders. I think that was the only sort of cavalry they had, so they had a walk. Right, Depends if you can

though. Yeah the war Hulk yeah but it's good units. You can use it at semi heavy cavalry or slight skirmishes. It doesn't hurt to have one fast. You need to with a bit more save and lenses because the widows often didn't have much punch so one unit with a bit of punch helped, but it was far from being like you know, Evan silver Helms or anything like that. You can give them barding which feels a bit weird but gives them

saves or three plus. So if you want to play with the standard of shielding then you can get 2/2 plus. So it's not a bad unit, but it's a bit expensive. Yeah. So what was your experience? Did you use it as a light cabaret or did you go the semi heavy? So you need self obviously one unit of small unit of five, like with long bows, but they're very expensive, like sort of three points a head.

That's that's a lot. And then you need often with the general of like 8 with light armours, lenses, no barding because it's been too much. Yeah, and your condo, what was your? I love to play them light cavalry, but lenses. So it's they are, they are still light cavalry, but they hit very hard. So I but I love them because there are a lot of options as as Leo says, you can put them this heavy cavalry like cavalry.

They can have bows or not. But the Lancers are a very strong option because it's a it's a unit which is more it's a hell of a movement. They can go through woods because sometimes people forget even the wooden horses can move through the woods. So so it's horrible to have a unit who can go around and then when they charge, they have this strength 5. So I think they're very strong for a light recovery. Yeah. And did you get the minimum size? So did you go for like ranked units?

Well I'm not the most experiences with their player because they haven't played much but I think they were well with maybe 6-6 models. So you can lose 1, lose 2 unstable fighting because they are. They can be damaged by missile fire magic very easily. So maybe. See I have tried one once. I tried a big unit and it didn't go well. So they can they can skirmish, which is useful, and they've got this faint flight rule where they can leave France combats,

which has its use. Yeah. Was was that present in 4th edition or did that come in fifth? Was it in 4th edition as well? I'm. Fairly sure it was in fourth, yeah. Yeah. So was that that they declared fleeing and then they would automatically rally or? So they they flee from close combat. So when the combat's already engaged and they flee. Through the six. And if they're codes, they're not destroyed, they're just attacked, but they can't fight back.

And if they get away, they can just like, turn around and do what they want next term. So it's useful if you're not against Cameroon. Then stand. Now you hit and run. Yeah, and I mean, if you have a forest in your back, it's probably a safe bet that you're going to get away if you feed through the forest. Yeah, yeah. Right, good. And then we have the slightly more special choice, the Warhawk riders. Yeah, so good. Yeah, I don't know how many other you armies had a choice of

sort of units of employers. I mean, yeah, it's, it's so strong. I mean, see, it's expensive. So 38 points. If you want to give them Shields, light down, more spells, they're going to operate in small units anyway. They're not very resilient, but they fly and weapons, they fly. If that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, Weapon scale 5 is something which stands out because they are not only flying, they are difficult to

hit in hand to hand combat. They are in where they have spares and but in forced edition you can fly and fly high. You have a lot. Of belly there the. Only problem were the models which was so awkward to running Models group and hold together. But stunningly, they're probably the best models in that Woodhouse frame. They are cool models here, yes. Yeah, cool models. So. Yeah, yeah. I was just saying that for the good deals, they can have a

warthog for the characters. Yes, that's quite overpowered because you can fly very little, very little points. Yeah, flying. And on the other hand, high fibre director on high with the Heart of War or the black game of NAR or something, and he's flying on our so that's quite powerful. Yeah, and and I mean, to be fair for characters, you also have the option of the Great Eagle, which is the Warhawk is 20 points. So it's not cheap between the two.

And even the Pegasus, it's, it's always balanced, but the the Great Eagles are really great. Yeah, they're. Yeah. So how would you use them? Would you like attack Cadbury and or flanking or chasing down? Unit of five, you can go for artillery, you can go for lonely characters, you can go on the back of the army and slow everyone down, and you can charge from the back, from the from the sides. You can do all sort of nasty shenanigans with them. Yeah.

So it's just. It's just old troops as well. Maybe go against miss old troops on the. Thorn watches as. Long as they're not ranked up with a banner, then you should be all right, yeah. And I mean, they're not more costly than sort of other light cavalry pretty much. Or maybe it's slightly more, but. They are the cost of an Empire knight, right? Yeah, about if you keep them out, yeah. Yeah, like an Empire knight about. Yeah, 39.

Yeah, yeah. But you can do so many things with them that for me, the most difficult is to decide what to do. They can do Everything Everywhere in the battlefield. So. Yeah, distracting you to have all those choices, Yeah, right. But definitely it's all the choice. And the other quite special or iconic wood health unit is of course the award answers. Yeah, also very good. Yep, and. Speed bump up, they just stop the unit doing. Anything.

Yeah, yeah, so, so look, they, they got this like 6 plus special save. They've got a spell save of four, plus into psychology. They can move around, they can move over other units. They can move over over your unit which is horrible. They can pass and unit from front to the rear. Yeah, and then they've got their wall dances, so one of them just allows the the the. So it's the shadow coils the one. You can have more attacks. You can draw.

Yeah, draw one is is for me the most overpowered because they go into your face. OK, I'm in your face now just to. Charge them, yeah. You have to charge, they draw and then they charge your flank with another unit. So that's something I will. Exactly. So you you you you. You run them in small units like 5-10. You keep them being behind, then when the enemy gets closer, you jump in front of your also units, which you can do. Then you, the opponent has to charge them.

You can draw and then you can charge with your trim men, with your characters, with your tree ads, with your skirmishers. Likewise whether it's the Warhawk riders, the plate riders. So it it can do a lot of a lot of good stuff, but it's expensive. When people, yeah, I guess they don't. And there is this wardens, I don't use it much, but in fourth they have one wardens in all the unit attacks, one single character on the unit. They are all and that's very nasty because. Maybe we have.

What about that done to me? Killed off a very powerful wizard, Yeah. Good, good, good times. Disgusting troops. So I guess what you don't want is someone to start shooting at them. I guess that would be bad for them. But I mean, you have the movement and sort of the ability to maybe avoid that, but I guess they are a bit vulnerable to shooting otherwise. They hide them behind another

unit, isn't it? That's and they come out to play when when you get close enough that you're not going to be shooting them, you're going to be charging them. Yeah, I guess that's the answer is move towards anything where you see War Dogs is hiding behind. Move towards them with missile trains. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can, you can stop a charge of heavy Caravalry, just dead on. It's. Yeah, yeah. Nothing's going to happen, right.

So I can hear David, it's getting a bit worked up here by the memories of frustrating. Well, in 3rd, in 3rd, you could have warders, not as many, but they could have ward answers as well. They just became an exclusively wood health thing in in fourth. So they're just they're horrible. They're nasty. They're one of the reasons, I think that, you know, would have generals generally commit war crimes. But there we go. Right.

So and then we're on to, if we're done with the word answers, trying to get the calm down a bit, we go. We're going to point to the the sort of standard to type the arches, basic arches. Yeah, 11 points. Plenty of them. Just take. Take as many as you wish. Yeah, no options at all. Actually, they yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I tried them in units of 10, which is good, works well. I tried them in of like 16 to 20 with a character and the

standard works well as well. And seven little bit resilient in close combat. So it's it's you can do a lot of things. One one thing worth mentioning is the the hail of doom arrows, which is one of the best magic item and he puts that in the unit with the champion in the unit of Archers or scouts or something like that. 3D6 shots that term Strength 4 it's. Yeah. I mean, that's things like you almost always see those that medical, yeah. Man, that's right.

I, I was playing as I told you before I was playing yesterday and of course the first time I received the hail of against my my unit with the grey shield. You know I. Have my grey shield. And my and then after the tomorrow's. The grey Shield said Oh. But you would say don't rely upon the hail of Dima because as soon as you rely upon it, it's going to be 3 arrows. Yeah. You know, you're all your 3D6,

you won all ones. So I, I guess my point on that is I've already said, I think what else are one of those win big or win small? There's kind of no in between with widows and same with Hail of Dima. Either really, really works or it doesn't. It's it's not a yes, OK, you can roll, you know, like, I don't

know, 3-4 and three maybe. But generally speaking, you're probably rolling high or low when you're shooting out how they do Maris. It's kind of a for only 25 points, it's a worthwhile gamble. Yeah, Yeah, it's very good. Unless you said you don't rely on it, but it was at something at least. So, and I mean, you, you're going to rely on shooting. So just yeah. Amplify that. Yeah. As soon as your opponent goes, oh, hella do marries off, just go.

Just get out of here. The question of the month for June 2025 is what would you put in a hobby time capsule? Imagine the human race is about to go extinct. We're filling a big indestructible box full of the stuff that says this was our hobby to the aliens who find that in 10 million years you can put anything in there. Miniatures, rule sets, books, magazines, dioramas, pots of paint. The choice is yours. And you can put as little or as much as you'd like in there too.

Help fill the hobby time capsule and ensure everything dear to your heart finds a place in there by going to bedroombattlefields.com/voicemail. And I need them in by Friday the 27th of June. That's bedroom battlefields.com/voicemail. And now, back to the show. So we're back again and we had just finished talking about the bread and butter of the Wooda farm of the Arches, and so we're moving on to the Glade Guards. So that's sort of the basic hand

to hand option I guess. Probably the only thing read to call out about them is that again, they can have a Magic Banner. You know, they're speed men. You know, high old speed men can't. Yeah, these guys can. Yeah. So yeah, regarding what we talked about, you know, maybe ranked troops isn't the strength of the wooden no unit. So do you use them at all? Are there recently? Not really. Not really.

I mean they're they can look a bit thematic in some cases, and I think they're here to like incorporate the the just goodwins, like warriors. But if you want to I can find take dreads. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I guess they're much better, yeah. But I, I like the miniatures. So I I am quite stubborn when it comes to I always play them but just for the miniatures because normally they perform really bad so.

Exactly. I I do the same I I've got a unit of the gist between Spellman of like 30 of them. They look great, but. Yeah, that's a very solid unit and good to see that people do that, but maybe not if you want to perform optimally. Yeah, yeah. You're very seldom see them in tournaments. Yeah, the eventual club usually. Yeah, yeah. And I mean that's, you said quite basic.

They have, you know, basic element stats and they have shows of light armour and shield, so you can give them a little bit of protection but still you're not going to get better than 5 plus. So that's that's it, too much. Yeah, right. And then we have the Weight Watchers. The elite sneaks in sneaky guys, Yeah. Yeah, I love them. Love Weight Watchers. Yeah, and this and they can hide in the woods and you can see them and charge.

They have the, you know, the straps, the program of course, where Ballistics is skilled 5 and so so I love them. Yeah, they're fairly costly, so. Yeah. So that that's the thing And so and the models are I like the models as well. But the the the thing about them is you can just kind of ignore them issue on opponents. They are only like this unit of 10, OK, it's 10 Longbow shots. That's not the end of the world. It's a little bit expensive. You just use them for for that. Yeah.

So I mean, I always have them, but you, you can ignore them, I think, yeah. Or deal with them in. Yeah, I think they are performing better as the starving force. They can filtrate in some forest and then they can block March. They are annoying now they are and they can hide. You maybe can't charge them and so, so they are annoying, they are disturbing. Yeah. And maybe you can sort of punch up on a like a war machine or something, but that's probably

about it, yeah. That's interesting play. They're annoying. That's that's. The. Yeah. Is that not? They would have in general is that. Not yes, Yes, no, sure. It's a layer of annoying they are. The embodiment of annoying annoying. You can change the name of the army, and not with elves, but annoying elves. And also they can set up traps to make it a little bit extra annoying. So what? I don't know anything about those, but what do they do? Do they are they useful or is it

just a little bit extra? So it's, it's only if you charge the Weight Watchers that they trigger. So I see more often than not, they don't really do much. Like they're just like what what you pay for is the skirmish and a special deployment, right? So the scouts are 16 points. For an extra 2 points you get the hiding and the trap.

So it's it's worth it. Yeah, yeah, and I guess I mean, you can do a lot of annoying stuff like baiting friends and troops or maybe the wild fanatics and what kind of shenanigans? Yeah, yeah. I'm that bit expensive for that. Yeah, but I mean, if you hide in the forest, you can. They're just going to dive on the end to the forest. I guess so. The the other thing about them and scouts obviously, is you can put a champion in the champion in the you can give them the

hail of do marrow. So you're placed right close to the enemy with a hail of do marrow. Yeah, yeah, Hail of the. Marrow. So yeah, we're next one is Scouts. That looks almost that's annoying, yes. It's just Weight Watchers without hiding in traps. But you can only have one unit of Weight Watchers, so that's that's why you start taking scouts at some point. Yeah, and you can include any unit, any number of units of scouts. With only. Scouts. Oh, and less fun, yes.

So. You know, like something fun that I never tried. But like you can you, you could have like in general in there. You could have like piggy units of 20. Maybe it could be fun to try. Yeah, and Mage is in there and yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. All right. So yeah. And it seems like I mean for two extra points to get the hiding woods and the traps. So maybe you would include one unit of those.

And then if you want to be extra annoying, you'd do some scouts as well because they're they are they shoot yes, as well as Weight Watchers. Yeah, right. And then we come to the another iconic. It's a shoe. It's actually units, yeah. Tree men or some regiment? So so you could have an army of just tree men. Yeah. But no, not quite, because it's one for every thousand points. No, you're right. Sorry. Sorry. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, no, you're right.

Sorry, in pre in pre like in 3rd 3 tree men and in in the white book there was a limit, I can't remember what it was. There was a limit on number of treatment. You know, it was just by numbers. So you could take 1000 point army and it could probably be just treatment. Yeah, but you can do one with the only three men and dryads then if you want to go the sort of way, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you could. Do that, yeah. And I think three men are also seen quite often in a world of

warming. They are incredible. They are so good. Yeah, yeah, and and. Oh yeah, and the roots you. Have to income but you have to wound because otherwise they won't run so that's really annoying too once more and I think they are great maybe if three men were in other armies they wouldn't be so useful, but with all the other units of the wood elves, I think they really a great compliment. They are perfect for the wood elves because you have that rock there and and that works really

well. Thanks God. They don't make terror. If they if they make terror, that's cool. They are only fair. So that's thankful because otherwise there would be terrific. Yeah. That's true, yeah. They can do a lot of things I guess they don't do. Yeah, you, you can block units with Kermit shells like Warden cells and then like send the tree man in once you stop the charges. And and it's not a big unit, so you can like manipulate it's quite easily. So it's it's very good, very

good. Yeah, yeah. Just one thing, just to call out on this. Yeah, You know the Tree Man artwork next to it, It's a lovely piece by Mark Gibbons. Really nice tree, right? If you only look at that and you see the orc at the corner of your eye, I keep thinking that's a space marine because he's got

big folder. Paddy looks like the Mark 7 face grill where the team, if you don't look at the orc, you just see out the corner of your eye when you're looking at the tree, man, it's like, oh, that's like a tree that's a bit like a spaceman. Yeah, OK, it's an orc. It's just. Something I just noticed just then I was just looking at. No, no, I know it's an orc. Yeah, no, there are no tree men in space. Exactly. Wow in in one trade you could do it probably. Yeah, yeah, you could get away

with anything there. The models are fantastic. Oh yeah, they're absolutely treatment are just stunning, stunning, iconic models. Yep. Yeah, yeah, I love them. They're still holding up very nice. So yeah, they have a bunch of special rules as well. They hate Orson goblins. A little bit of addition, maybe not a huge thing, but and they burn maybe not slight issue perhaps. And also you have the special fallen treatment thing like Dyas. Yeah.

That's cool and they can tree whack attacking war machines and. Stuff so, so very bad now, yeah, won't touch on that. No right? So how does that work? Do they like automatically destroy it or like a war machine when they attack them? Do you know 3 whacks? The three whacks they can they can swap all their attacks for like a strength Sten attack that that has 6 wounds so. Yeah, good. Against the Steam tags maybe, yeah.

Yeah, he says. Specifically against the War Machine wagon Chariot Hood on. So not like did. You tell us if it's edition one yeah, this is definitely fishing edition, but as mentioned, the hood up, which didn't exist in fourth for anyone that also was choosing Yeah, OK, yes, the strength ten hit and D6 wounds OK. Yeah, but there's also one in three chance that you're going to miss entirely. So yeah. But yeah, definitely it's all the choice. Not going to go anywhere quickly.

You need to dedicate a whole lot of resources to bring your treatment down, I would assume. Yeah. And then the little trees, the dryads. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's a good unit. It's very expensive, so 35 points ahead. Yeah, quite. They've got like good save 2 wounds, 2 attacks. They've got this shape shifting where they can assume different aspects. Yeah.

They're good. Yeah, they have some shape shifting, very powerful when they are -1 attack for the opponent, but if the opponent has only got 1 attack, it's like, OK, you are not attacking, the riots are attacking, so you are in trouble. I find them very good, a little bit expensive if you want to make a big unit because it's about 35 points. I remember. Well, yeah, 35 two wounds anyway, so not bad, not costed, but I think they they are very good.

So the the the problem is leadership a little bit. So they've got 8, which is OK. I, I think you need to have a character in there and maybe, well, obviously there are no dry ass character apart from the special 1. So I've, I've never tried that and I was thinking about it this morning, but maybe you can put a Buddha character in there. Nothing tells you you can't. So a hero in general to have a bit more leadership, a bit more punch at the right time.

I have never tried a character. Yeah, you shouldn't. Looking at it, it doesn't say you can't. So you'd have the annoyance of the base size. Obviously that'd be frustrating, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Reason not to. Right. May you put character on you record and haven't got covering 2 ranks and just put the put the dryads around them I guess. Oh, that 'd be nice nasty actually, because then you get the magical protection of the Unicorn. I'm not going to suggest that everyone discount that.

I didn't say that No one, no one hear that. That sounds nasty. So. What did you say? What was the? Because you're talking about putting the character and I said, well, one of the annoyances obviously with base size, then you could mount them on a like a Unicorn and put them in your no, don't, don't do that. No one do that because that's nasty. Because then suddenly they've got that magical immunity and stuff. Yeah. No, no, don't any nobody else players hear that.

No one do that. Please, Chris, you listen to this. Don't do that ever. Right. Yeah. No, we're not going to do that. So I'm sure Josh will cancel that one out. Probably not. OK. So yeah, if you want to fight the unit you will probably go with the dryads problem. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, best fight unit in the in the army that I asked for sure. And then we have the sort of standard monster list, except for the horse dragon, I guess, and the unique corn.

That's sort of another thing, but the would have highest could have it as well. So in what way does the first dragon, is it different from a normal dragon? Because that's lines are identical. So. But I guess they have some special rules or. Different breath. There is this breath which is different from the other Dragons. OK, yeah. So is it good compared to? Do you rather take a forced

dragon apart from the theme? I have never plays the forced dragon so not real, but I have seen with their players they usually play the first dragon so I guess it's good compared to the regular dragon. I don't exactly remember now about their breath. I remember this poisonous breath, but I don't remember how it compares. It's no almost safe. And the leadership test, if the test is failed, move 56 away from the attack. It's no almost safe. Yeah, it's good.

No, almost safe and you can move them. Yeah, that's. Good. Yeah, the description of Breath says they're basically a green dragon, so I'm just quickly having a look at green Dragons to see what the difference is. Oh, it's the it's the same breath as the green drama. Well it says that hold on so. So forest Dragons are a kind of green Dragons described in the One more battle book. They belt creative green fumes, any model hit sort of strength three hit with no saving 3 for

armour. Additionally, you may unit attack bodies fuse may be forced to give ground before they're choking clouds. The unit takes a leadership test. If the unit passes the test, it holds its ground. If not, it's moved D6 inches directly away from the attack. This does not affect its move next turn. Yeah, it's the same accepting in the well the best tree for the 4th edition. It takes a fear test as well, but that's not, I don't know if

that carried on into 5th. I don't know because because what I've book, I've got some 5th or whatever book, so they make changes to it. I don't know if that was the green dragon breath in 5th or not, I don't know. But it's definitely a classic model. I think it's very nice. I think it's coming back, isn't it? For the old world? I think I read something. Is it going to be the original version or the one they did for 6th? Well, they took the same dragon but put different riders on it.

The one with the exhaust twilight or something? Yeah, yeah, I like the the the other one better. OK, maybe they'll be felt. Yeah, I'm not sure what they're going to bring for the made to order. Maybe that would be some actually old stuff. The Unicorn would be nice for, I mean strictly speaking she's a high elf. I know, but doing that for Made to Order would be quite cool. Yeah, and I. The original 1, not the 6th edition I think.

Possibly I heard some rumour about that, but maybe a rumour or wishful thinking or something. It'd. Be great. I mean, I've got the model. It'd be great to get another one though. Yeah, yeah. It's got the the war wagon, the old one, so that's going to be nice. Or it's the new sort of updated version, but it's virtually the same. Yeah. So there are some hopes for maybe some made to order goodies. Apart from that great Eagle, we talked a little bit about that.

It's a solid yes. I guess the character, yeah. It's it's the just two attacks that let's you down a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But but it's not much bigger. Than the Pegasus. Yeah. It's main use for me is Broke in March. It's it's it's in your back. Rocky Mountain and Morgan and. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for the the additional 25 choices it seems like a better choice compared to Pegasus for example. Oh, Pegasus are rubbish. Literally a flying horse OK,

he's got 2 attacks. Wow. But that's, you know, it's, it's just a flying horse in in 3rd edition of 14 points, you know, and then and then 5th just. Fly yeah, that fly is so good it should be 4th edition so and. Then you can have a Warhawk. And there's. The. There's the Unicorn as well. Unicorn. Say good. Unicorns, especially against chaos. Yes. Yeah, they had sort of a dispel

thing or something. So. No demonic save against them, then they've got to dispel 4 plus and they have basically a lens with their horn. When they charge, yeah. When charging, yeah, yeah. Not to heart back to third again, but in 3rd the kind of I think it disrupted undead as well as demons. So so they were even better in 3rd, but but they're still fantastic. The unicorns, I love them.

I think they're brilliant and they're giving a unit because if you put them in a unit, obviously then the unit benefits. But four plus dispel is is fantastic. You know, it's in effect as a banner of arcane warding, isn't it? So which protection warding, whichever 1's the 50.1 I can never remember, but it's in effect that.

But obviously the unit it's in normally like a silver Helms or a unit of, you know, Glade riders, whatever it is, you know, they they can still have a magic banner on top of having that, you know, so I think a Unicorn for its points. Used correctly, they run around on their own, they're not so great. If you put them in a unit of cavalry, they're really useful. Yeah, Audrey, Audrey, don't even talk about that. Right, Yeah. So that's an interesting, might be worth considering if you

won't be sneaky. So let's see if we can run down the special characters fairly quickly. We have Orion, of course, the king. So yeah, thoughts on him? I don't find the king especially powerful. I think he's a little bit weak when he can hit, but not too hard. And when it comes to defense it's not very good. It's quite easy to kill. So I don't find him a great character. I love the miniature but I don't

think he performs so good. I, I look, I, I, I think it's mainly the cost that's too high because just that line's OK. And it's, yeah, two heights. Are also OK but it's just a bit expensive. I was trying to think if you can because it only has movement 5. So I was trying to think if you can only use a museum with very dreads or something like that. That's a different way of like using it.

It's got these hounds which never had models, but they'll get useless anyway so. Yeah, but I think when you see the miniature, you think, OK, this guy is more powerful than than what he really is. I think he should be a better profile for that miniature since, you know, maybe not as as good as Nagas, but I think he's a little bit weak. Yeah. And also I mean, yeah, 3 medic items and there's no choice of any other ones. So and usually, quite often the special character items are not

the best you can actually have. So it's not you're not able to do any choices for him actually. I think the model's better than the gash, but yes, that wise and use. No, he's not even. Doesn't come close, does it really? Yeah, he does have quite a few lengthy entries, so there's a lot of special rules, but maybe it doesn't come down to too much, right? And then we have his wife, of course, the queen. Very good. Yeah, not maybe my absolute favorite model in the world. But no, it's.

Bad model, but she she's a so she's a major Lord and she costs like 30 points more than normal one. But she fly is she's got a four plus dispel. She does no armour save against her and she dodges everything on 4 plus. So for an extra 30 points, that's really good. Yeah. And are her medic items OK or? They're pretty good, yeah. So she's got one which is instead of like she can power one of her spends for free for the whole game. It's always the same spell, but that's OK.

She's got also one where you can just like create a wood. Oh, that's an extra layer of annoying then, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Then she's got one which is which she's trying. It's a bit cute, but like it's darts do an automatic wound and if it's not save SO1 wound and minus D6 to strengths for the rest of the game. And then the sort of like link potion D6 wounds. So it's it's it's good. We found the model was better. That is good. It's good character.

Yes, yeah. For me it's the opposite with Orion. She's much better than the model. Yeah. OK. So she's a pretty good shot. And then we have one that I honestly hardly ever heard about. But Nyeth or however you pronounce that one OK. I find I find her for for very low cost is quite overpowered in my opinion because the old is horrible. You know, it's put in the old and I hate if I that was one of the most high and that hold and then this has one more card and so I'm at 1st.

It's very low cost and for me it's very powerful worker cost. Yeah, never, never got a miniature. I mean maybe, maybe it's the one that was like the sorceress on food that was released, but this one doesn't have an old SO. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's so they're all let's. You, by the way, it's it's a sheer Yep. So she's a level 1 mate? Basically, yeah. Yeah, Well, I, I think at least I assume it's a she, but maybe not. No, it's a profit test.

So yes, yeah, yeah. So. But compared to like a normal level 1, it's a solid choice so. Yeah, so she's got this all that lets you that can go on units with balls and they can reroll failed to hit rolls that can go to another units. So you can use that. Yeah, quite well. But it doesn't work with like Halo Tomorrow's or anything like that. Magic items, just normal shooting. OK, yeah, that's a little bit sobering at least, but yeah, OK. And it doesn't count as magic items.

You can't do things like Ring of Corin to get rid of it, and it's got no profile so you can't shoot it. Oh yeah. So it's, it's not going anywhere. He just. Does it? Yeah. And you have to kill her. I guess if you kill her it stops. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. OK, shortly, I'm afraid I have to leave. Yeah, we're almost done. We're just going to do the last special character then. OK, so thank you very much for letting me join. I'm very sorry again for my mistake. I really. Think.

In two weeks. So so OK. Thank you. Have a good nice day. Bye bye. Take care, bye bye. All right. So the last one Talandoor well. The next one. Is not the last one, but sorry, Very, very good character. He's I don't like four more pages. Five more pages. A lot. Maybe won't go through all of them. Now some of them we can go quickly through, but this one is is very good. I I think this is basically the guy that Mike Mcvie converted. Right. Yes, I agree. Yeah, so he's on the Great Eagle.

He's a master mage but he's like hero stats. Yeah, because no other character. They tend to either be a level 1 or a level 4. Yeah, but this, I don't know why they. Gave you pre special character. Magic. But he's he's very good. He's got some interesting items, got a good save. Yeah, so you feel a tiny bit like a ward on some age or something. Yeah, I. Suppose I suppose. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. He doesn't get the special attacks, but he's he's he, he

very. You're absolutely right. The the feel of it when you read through it does feel like that the general that he made. Yeah, that might made for his widow army that that was used by robbing Jesus as a wizard, wasn't he the chaos sort of one. Yeah, It feels like it's come from there. Yeah. Very much so. Lovely concept. Yeah, but you need a bit of work if you're going to field him on your own. Try to replicate that one.

Might be a bit of challenge. I think you could probably you could probably take the the warhawk mage and change his staff into a spear. You can. Probably do. I mean the original conversion like with glam from the Scarloch unit is not too hard. The the hardest part is the spell. Yeah, it's a very nice one and classic. OK, then you have a special BSP. If we go a bit faster, I mean, it's got nothing special on this guy there's. Nothing special about him at all, really.

He's a Dispel, but that that's it. OK, so and then we have the special character. So we have three. Sorry Derthu. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, it costs 80 more points, and for 80 more points you get one point of strength, one attack and a save of four plus instead of five plus. Then this leader likes rights, but that doesn't really do anything. I don't know. It's OK. If you have the points to spare, maybe adds a little bit of

extra. And I guess the should possibly only downside with the three men is he doesn't have too many attacks and you can always count on missing one or two. So maybe, you know, having one extra is always good. Of course. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. But otherwise, mostly like in all the three men, he has all the benefits and disadvantages. Yeah, yes. Indeed, Yes. No, no, it's actually the same of the world as Yep. OK. And then we have. A. Scout Champion. Scout luck.

So it's interesting because he he is scout champion, but like he's literally he's a champion with the hail of tomorrow and you could just take a champion and keep him in the same way, not make a difference. So I don't know why. I mean, I know he's famous, but I don't see. The point out there, I guess, because strictly speaking, if you go letter of the law, which no one does, they always, it was always ignored. Strictly speaking, the Scout special should be something you have to pay for.

Yeah. So strictly speaking, other champions shouldn't be able to. You should be able to deploy characters with Scouts and Weight Watchers. Strictly speaking, everyone does it, don't get me wrong, and it's accepting you do, and you'd be if you stop someone doing it. But I guess that's kind of the point is if you're going by letter of the law, a normal you couldn't put into your unit of of scouts resist guy, you can. Why? Why can't you? Because they're skirmishers.

Well, same as if if I put a champion into a unit of plague monks, he doesn't get frenzy. Yeah, not skirmish part, but the the scout special rule, the special deployment speaking, putting a character in there, you shouldn't be able to put one in because they don't have the the scout special rule. Everyone does it and you and it's just accepted you can do it but strictly speaking you shouldn't. So I guess he would be the way you get around that. Yeah, right. So we have 6 minutes if we're

able to do this one. I'm not even going to try to pronounce the next one. It sounds like a Welsh. Welsh. Thing I always want to say that if you got Scarlett, well, that wasn't MEB from the same box set, but you know, I guess you have to do a little bit of change. No. Model No. I mean slightly better than the the normal champion. He's got a special dance which is good so where he attacks every model on the front rank.

And he's. Got the drum and he's got the drum, which is so, yeah, nothing really special there. You feel like they were churning out characters without really thinking about them. Yeah, they're not. I mean, and I suppose you can have different opinions about special characters in general, if they should be, you know, really special have a lot of special rules. But I mean, it just, it seems like it's the normal choice with very little added. And then we have another one.

It's what is he's. A hero, basically. Basically hero. OK, Yeah. Also not super exciting. If he hand to hand, no, we have to bow with one. Yeah, I I think he's meant to to lead the United league out. OK. Probably there's just there's just nothing special about it. This this is the way that would have booked is they they they put loaded special characters in with unique magic items for them, but there's very few unique would have magic items that the whole army can take. Yeah, yeah.

They could have done that instead and saved a bit of room in the book. Yeah, it's a bit of a different approach I guess was whatever reason, but yeah. And then we. I I think they work backwards on some items as well. They're like, oh, we and the character for the hail of tomorrow's. We need a character for the ball of Lauren and the trash to come and please someone to do that. Yeah, I don't think they did, but this was from a special character takings.

But, and you guys have hit up on this and it's not something I really did. You guys have mentioned it. You kind of view special characters as the thing that you took with your army, whereas I've never viewed, but I've kind of every now and then I might take one in a rare circumstance. Even back then I viewed special characters being this weird anomaly. OK, cool, they added to the

story. But though whereas, you know, clearly by this point, the target is people that use special characters regularly all the time, which is why there's so many of them. So yeah, it's kind of a weird thing. There we go. It's just an observation you got Dryad on. Yeah, we have 3 minutes to go so. I mean the dryads is not much to say about like slightly bitter dryads and it's useful, but same leadership. So it doesn't really do anything.

And then I think maybe what's a bit more interesting? Beastmasters. Yeah, the worst thing they've done is they they took the Beastmasters out of the main list and made them special characters. Yeah. Which are not great. Yeah, I'd rather seen them in the list. Yes, same, same same. Very not sure. But there we go it is. What it is? So it's Falcon Guy. Yeah, yeah. And the and the Sabretooth Eiger guy. Yeah, and not, not, not a lot of.

Thoughts in this guy that seem care there will be to be master thoughts. Yeah. I see the highlights of the characters. For me it's Orion and IL but you can play as a pair for big battle and talent doll is. Really great. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And the and the knot of the hat with Scarlock. Yes, yeah, A. Little honouring the, you know, one of the one of the most famous regiments of renown that that a lot of people that were playing in 3rd probably own

yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think did the score have a model? He did, yeah. It wasn't particularly great. Yeah, that's. Cool. Yeah, Yeah. Yes, No, it's not a great model. But the other one didn't write the Sabre tooth. No, no. No, no, I think the. Idea of that one was you used the original Beastmaster, you know one of the one of the one of the maybe the 3rd Ed or. Prior, the only ones who got models were iron and iron and those who. That's it. That's cool, yeah.

Right. So maybe a slightly rushed here at the end, but they had a lot of special characters, but maybe they weren't all that special. So yeah, agreed. All right, so we need to wrap up there one that's left. So that was all the sort of standard Army books. So we'll, I guess we'll do the. Yes, Dwarf shadows charging. Yes, that was that was intentional reference. Yeah, so. Which which one is it next? Chaos Dwarfs? Oh yes, nice, I'll be there.

Yeah. Hence I put on the post on them in the group the shadows charging that was kind of supposed to be represented in hash hub. Yeah, good. Right. So yeah, we're going to be cut off. All right, identities. So guys, have a good day. Yeah, it's the end screen. Just for today, thank you.

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