Warhammer Armies High Elves Deepdive

Oh, you both feel good. Yeah, great. Very good. I couldn't find my high off but and then remembered I had a spare so so I've got that one right. So I might get distracted everyone then by weird writings and scribblings in the book because it's not mine that someone's done that. That that does upset me a little bit when I see that people scribbling and writing in the book and it's like, why? Why would you do that? Like he's written a price on Alfarian. It's like, what are you doing?

What do you do? Yes. I've, I've got to say, this has been really useful for me just for the fact that I was reading through my books and found my missing empire book tucked at the back. So I was like, yes, there it is. Fair dudes, you know, I put all mine, all mine kind of stacked up ready to go for whenever he looks like they said I don't know where I put my high open. Then I had it out recently for like the start of this month and then I don't know where I put it.

Yeah, not an organised person. Compared to me, we, we we played the was it the Scaven game? The 1000 points Scaven game, was that right? Josh's online campaign I'm sure I had a game is. That the one that never got finished? It never got finished, no. Campaign, Yeah. I I was wood elves. Oh. Yeah, yeah, the orcs in that 1, I think. Was it orcs? Oh, you're the orcs OK. Yeah, I think that was one. I played the dwarfs I remember. Was it dwarves? Yeah. No, I played with Orcs, but I I

played dwarfs and I played. Yeah, I think that was the game that never got played with. That was like the round that never got played. So you guys didn't play each other. There was one game. Right. OK. Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't remember which one was which. It feels like such a long time ago now, yeah. Yeah, it was so. Yeah, I think, I think you did Goblins and Scaven think you played Tim's goblins and against Yeah and then.

That was really good fun. You managed high elves and dwarves, probably you played, I think against, I can't remember off top, Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah. I watched them. It was a long time ago. Oh, it's been writing on the pages. Why would you do that? Shocking anyone? If you have one unwritten copy, that's fine. I. Guess. Oh yeah, I do. I do have my original 1 from back in 199293 March 2 roundabout. Then commend them. Yeah. So. Oh yeah.

OK, tell us, do you have the rough running order for the Empire to hand? I do, actually, yeah, I'm. Johnny Marshall says can I? Yeah. Right. So yeah, Goodwin, we're able to have this sort of a tail end of September. Indeed. September has been the month of high UPS so. Yeah, we're just squeezing it in, as it were. Probably get posted in in October, but hey, yeah, yeah. But. You know, that's the way it brings in.

It yeah, right. So yeah, I don't know, maybe if Tim, if you want to just to, you know, tell a little bit about your high of back story if you want to. Mine isn't too long because I had never played High Elves. I played plenty against High Elves, but I'm not a high of player myself. Yeah, I, I, I guess I started with high elves, I think because of a lot of people, because they came in the box, if I'm perfectly frank. But I mean for me I fell in love with the models in my games

local games workshop window. I mean I'm sure we're going to move on to this but the the Techless and Tyrion models for me are the greatest 2 models of all time and as an 1112 year old I was enthralled with them and there was no other army I wanted to collect so I actually swapped my mate's box full of goblins so I had his half of the high elf army. So most of my time my army was just what it would have been. 40 Spearman, 40 Archers and tearing and tetless so.

And maybe those cardboard cutouts of the Bond thrower. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did use the cardboard cut out. Yeah, I know it's it's, it's one of these things that, you know, I am one of these guys that used a lot of special characters. But I think everyone did back in the day, you know, they were economical really, because they took up such a big chunk of your army, you know, 4 or 500 points. That's an interesting view of

economics. It takes up a lot of the economic or most people would say we mean little. Yeah, but no, we it. Makes some point. I get, I get where you're coming from, but it's an interesting take on economical, yeah. We almost always did that as well. And I mean, for Empire, pretty much all the models released, the character models released in fourth were special characters. I mean, there were hardly any

like generic characters. So we sort of assumed, yes, you know, everything was special characters. So that's pretty much what we did. And and, and just for me as well. I mean, obviously I'm incredibly biased, but I think the high elves have the best special characters out the whole 4th 5th set of armies. You know, I think they've got the best back story. I think they're the best designed, they got the best paint job, and they probably has the most love from Games Workshop.

So it it it seemed to me that every other issue of White Dwarf had a picture of Tyrion or Teknis. Yeah, I can definitely agree on the the vicious aspects. The other ones, you know, arguable but and and you saw that in Golden Demon as well at the time. I mean it was almost always in the like single models, Tyrion or Teknis or both. Well, if if Empire was the army they used to launch 4th edition or you know, they, they redesigned it just full 4th edition.

It was what appeared in almost all of the white, you know, the white dwarfs and also all the battle reports to start with Heil's really worthy kind of post release. Yeah, flagship. They were the ones that once it was released, they were the ones they got quite a lot in the in the magazine. So redesigning obviously previous to to 4th edition, they didn't. You can't just had elf models. They weren't really certain ones were definitely would elf certain ones would definitely

darker was different. But what I mean by just some ones is in just good elves and you could pretty much use my just wood elves or you could use them the higher we spend on how you painted them. Yeah. And I think that's sort of the same. We, yeah, we talked about the. Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah. But it was the first time really with, you know, the 4th June box set that Hyos got their own dedicated range, really. And they really went for it, didn't they? I mean, I mean, Jazz really

pulled out all the stops. And I'll agree that there's some of the best models done in my opinion ever. Whether they have the best special characters does miniatures wise I I could go along with it. But actually, I don't know 4th I was quite a quite a quite a big undead player and they've got a good old plethora of decent undead in another month. But I'm just saying I don't know

if I agree with you totally. They they, they also featured a lot in the artwork so they were on the main box cover. They were also on Chronicles of war. They also loads of white dwarf covers. You know the exposure of the high elves. They they, they must have been the higher ups favorite. I mean, I have no idea on how how many numbers they sold or what sort of, but it seemed to be one of the most popular ones.

Yeah, basically transitioned into higher was during 4th, it was, it was an open gobbling player up until then. And during 4th he transitioned into into higher. So that may have had something to do with it as well. Yeah. And I think it's of popularity and I think that's probably quite true. Well, because they came with the box, as you said, they came with

the box sets. A lot of people started with them so. And I think for at least for some time, they were one of the most recently priced if you wanted to get back to full edition. But now I think maybe it's catching up, it's everything is pricy. So I don't think you can get them on discount now, but they were at least more recently as in. As in eBay or?

I don't. I haven't really looked at Games Workshop prices to be honest with Ohio's these days for whatever their stupid name they've got now. I think they still sell a cut. I mean, I think we're going to talk about this later, but they still sell a couple of models. I think there's a couple of eight edition ones they've got on the website or last time I checked anyway, but. Not as nice, Not as. There's definitely a hard cut off point. I think the late 90s.

I'm a massive fan of the Gary Morley High Elves. I know not everyone is, but I really love those don't. Dislike them? But from then onwards I tend not to worry about it. I I think the sick dish and plastics weren't the best, especially the spear men look a bit goofy, yeah. Yeah, the plastics, I'm, I'm talking about the late the late 90s. Yeah, no, I know. I'm just agreeing with you on the cut off. So kind of Morley's in 5th

edition, let's say. I think we're probably the ending of the really great high off. Models. After. That they're not. They're not. Unpleasant. But the big thing for me is I couldn't really afford many metal models when I first started. It was really the special characters that I bought, so I didn't really have many of the, the Ally Morrison ones, you know, when they were first out in the range for falls. It was only really.

When the broad ones, yeah. Yeah, it's only really when I got a job, you know, 1516 that I was able to afford the the, the latest stuff, which is probably why I like the Gary Morley ones more because I was exposed. To those, I was very lucky in that I was in a white in a, in a white dwarf. Sorry, I was in, I was in a white dwarf. I was in the Games Workshop and I don't think it was a proper sale. I think it was it. It certainly wasn't on the grand openings and it certainly wasn't

publicized say all day. But I was in there and they were just trying to get rid of a load of old stock. And I, and I can't remember exactly when it was, but there was a load of 4th edition metal stuff. So the old Marauder metal stuff and just sort of dirt cheap, really, really cheap. I just picked up loads of them. So price for that. Unlike you, I mean, I, I pretty

much had the plastics. I had probably I, I had the all of them from one set of it. And then I mean, I literally bought it. Me and my brother brought it as it came out and I had the heels. And that was the first time I properly collected. I've been planning to collect dwarfs up until that point. And I'd be meaning to pick up things like Prince Luther's, Bugman's, all the kind of the register, renowned and those sort of things. And my brother's mate worked in Games Workshop.

So. So the plan was that I got him to buy, I give him the money, he'll buy them. And he just never materialised. And then 4th appeared. It was like, oh, OK. And I got swayed by the the amazing pictures in in the white dwarf just before they launched it. So, so the the one with the front cut with the full visual front cover on on it, That's the one before they released, released it the next issue. And just the pictures in there were just like, oh, dropped a

gorgeous. And yeah, just like you said, you know, I fell in love with everything that came out the first few months. And then for my birthday, pretty much I'd got techies before then. And the 20 that came in the in 20 of each came in the box set. And my birthday is kind of March time. So it was released what, September, about October, I think it was released October. And I'd played with the, with

the plastics from the box set. And I think we've got techies just before Christmas. And then Nixon Woodall's My Brother's Collection and played with that for a while. Then my birthday came around and I picked up a load of extra stuff. So I picked up the silver Helms, the book. Weirdly I think 3 packs of the five I plan to pick up more. But then I decided to pick up something else instead. So ended up like with with 35, which is a really weird number of of Spearman and Archers.

Just as I said, the silver Helms where I I again, I was just a bit stupid. I picked up a rather pick up the standard where I picked up an extra Lancer. So I ended up with a load of Lancers in the champion. So I just used one as a standard bearer model and Tyrion as well. That's one. And that was my army for a very long. I went to repeat of Ultra and that's my army. For me, I I very rarely played with the full command just because I couldn't afford it.

You know, it was one of those that was an extra luxury. Like now I play every single regiment, every single unit has a full command because I love the look of the banner and you know, but but back then, you know, I never had a full command you. Know I had two jobs at the time. I was delivering once a week paper round and working in a corner shop. I wasn't earning a lot of money at all. I was probably the two jobs combined. I was lucky if I cleared £10.

So on a Saturday I'd go over to go into my mates. It was like every Saturday we'd go over and so I'd pick up things like a command group or I'd pick up one blister or something. I wasn't painting at that time, so it wasn't it. If it was painting, it'd been great, but you know, give me a week to get them painted and then buy my next blister. That sort of I wasn't so, but yeah, no, I was picking up things like that. So I've got AI, got a command group for my Spearman.

I think I picked up one for the one Archer command group as well. I mean, enough to get like 2 of each, but I didn't bother. So yeah, not really command groups like you at the time, but no very fond memories. And you know, an awesome army. But I don't remember a lot of

the games. The main ones I remember are not the games themselves, but I remember playing normally we'd play most weekends only against my brother, but we'd play most weekends and it'd be Empire and autumn gobbins on on the Saturday and on the Sunday kind of in the evening. So pre going back to, you know, bed and then going back to school, we would normally play a high off versus undead game. I'd take my high offs and brother use use undead.

But it was pre book undead so it was the white list undead. It's very typically the white list undead because that meant they were using dark magic and with the neck dramatic spells thrown in. And we're using your request characters for the for the undead. Very, very vivid memories of that. I don't remember the games themselves, just doing that as

it were. So talking about the the whitelist we discussed in the Empire, it was quite they were quite similar, were quite a few changes for the full book. So what did that look like for Hayams? Was the whitelist representative? What did it change? The yeah, it kind of more represented the Warhammer armies missed from 3rd, which a lot of them did because obviously they were translating from that into

4th. So you had Phoenix Guard, but there wasn't any fleshing out of what Phoenix Guard were. So yeah, exactly in the previous edition, Guard, you have called things like that, it's called Guard and they they were like a elite for troops. So they have the same my idea came with Spears as standard rather than how was you can upgrade to halberds And I think that's in the white book and I think that's in the white book as well that they come with

Spears initially. You can upgrade to halberds only one behind there's the standard. Feel free. I'm just flaming the comments of whatever publications goes out on if I've got that wrong. Just basically going off memory from many, many, many, many, many years ago. It's not something I've looked at recently because I love the book so much. So I wouldn't use the white

list. Other armies I've used the white list and I think that's partially because I was one of the first books, so I never really used the white white and probably for a few months I used the white book. So yeah, replaced. The other armies used it for a couple of years maybe. Well, maybe what felt like a few years, but probably actually was. It was probably. One you You never played third edition, right? So I, I, I was 11 years old when fourth came out. So I was just about the right

time. Played hero Quest and, and, and, and all that jazz like I'm sure we all have. I had 0 experience. The third I had no exposure to it whatsoever. But I have actually got tremendous joy from digging into the past and, and going back and looking at all the different, you know, the old white dwarfs and the old books and things like that. And it, it feels like a completely different army to me.

I know, I know that, that the foundations are there, but the aesthetics, even though it's just Goodwin, it feels quite different. You know, there's a very distinct like sea elf, high elf thing going on. And, you know, the look at the yeah, the war dancers, you know, the, the look of them as well, that they're like quite Nordic. They're quite, you know, got a tinge of Viking to some of the

models. It looks to me, you know, with the axes and other things like that, you know, and the only thing that I, I, I did really enjoy reading about was how notorious the, the dragon kin were that they were in every list in, in the older games day events and you just turn up with a load of big Dragons and just defeat everyone on the table. Well, how old's we? Unique and well, not unique.

There was a couple of moments where it happened, but fairly unique in that there was nothing in the high off list. You had to take every other list. There was a compulsory element. You had to have X number of this, Y number of that piles. No, you could just take whatever you wanted. There was no compulsory troops. So you get away with doing the dragon thing because you didn't have to spend points on anything else. So, yeah, Dragonkin as a unit. So Dragon riders as a unit, rank

and file unit. Yeah, that's that. That was perfectly allowed by the lists and nothing to stop you doing it. It's not like you could only take X percent of your points. No, as long as you had a character in your army, everything else could be Dragonkin up to the number that you were allowed to take. But this is the thing as well as like, I really like some of the 3rd edition Empire models, you know, you were chatting about before and that they were a little bit historically based.

And I think some of them still work really well in the 4th edition armies, and they fit really well. But with the High Elves, I've got a couple of models from the 3rd edition and they stand out like a sore thumb to my eye. Yeah. The scales out a little bit. The scales out. Yeah. I I I I love. The aesthetics different. I, I love the, the, the, the, the mage on the Unicorn because it's so iconic and, and that's about the only one I think I can

tolerate in my army. What about the I haven't got him, but that's one. He's got plenty of them. But what about the Eagle Rider? I don't have the eagle rider. No, I don't have the Eagle Rider. You had him because my only issue with him. I thought that was wood elf. I thought, is that not high elf? No, no, there's an eagle rider with a bow. That's right. The the, the Mike McVeigh ones a conversion. So. Right, OK, that's my. I'm getting confused.

Yeah, he. Uses the War Dancer from scarlocks made by the rider and converts him into a Rider. But the actual model that was, I mean, there were great eagles without a rider. They sold, I'm pretty sure. But there was a high off one that was released that I think it's another Marauder 1, I think off the top of my head. He's a lovely model. But yeah, he's, if you've ever seen the back report Hills versus Chaos Dwarfs, where there's a Griffin riding general for the high Morley's the Chaos

dwarf general. That's the wood elf rider. That's another wood elf, Wood Elf Rider and the High of Eagle Rider, That one, it's, it's a lovely, lovely model, but kind of disappeared as when the Pegasus rider came out. Yeah, another fantastic model as well. Yeah, I've got him just sat on the side here ready, just so I can get a bit of inspiration. All right, that's. Nice, he is a great model. Fantastic. Just a shame Pegasus is rubbish. He. He. Needs a parachute.

Does that model? Yeah. Right, yeah, we moving on. We talked a bit about what the appeal of Hail force and me from sort of the outside perspective, I really love the stories they had in like Grumps invasion of Ultron. I thought it was really awesome and of course the looks of the models and any general idea how how do they play, whether it's suppose were they good or better or? From my point of view, there are pretty much a point and click on me, put them down, shoot.

It's pretty much that you know, and then use your coverage account to charge and you know when they're getting close just charging. I've rarely done like a flanking maneuver with cavalry going out separately once or twice, but it's mainly that you're arches down. Shoot, fingers crossed you kill. What? About your experience, Tim, did you dominate the battlefield or?

Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things like I'm, I'm, I'm sure I've heard someone say before that Warhammers won on movement and, and, and they have a very high movement value. So you, you can, you know, if you're good in that phase, you can do extremely well with them. Unfortunately, I'm not particularly great in that phase.

So I, I, I kind of just, you know, charge forward with my silver Helms and, and hope for the best because they've got such a, a large range, You know, it's, it's I, I like that cinematic look and I like just getting in there and, and, and, and not hanging around. I'll tell a life. I'll tell a life I didn't put a little bit of couple of bolt throws on a hill, you know, and and sheep from a distance.

But The thing is, the great thing about this is I've I've I've reread all the books, of course, and you know, and and gone through a couple of things. And there's a couple of things that you spot in these books that does make you chuckle. And the thing that made me laugh was, I mean the books written by Andy Chambers and and every book gives like a little high of tactics. And one of the lines for me was, he says. You've got arguably the best defensive troops in the game all.

Right, that's. The and that's Andy Chambers says that and I'm not sure I agree The. Best. Defensive time. I think at the time he's right. Yeah, yeah, it's the second time was. Released. Yeah. The the. The time, yeah. The biggest weakness for me for elves is their high cost versus only toughness 3 That was always the big thing. They, they went down to a, you know, a light breeze for me, you know.

Yeah. So, but as you said, yes and there was one other Omicbook to compare with maybe that was. Officially, yeah. Yeah. Phoenix Guard are absolutely beautiful models. They're probably, you know, one of my favorite models, but they're an awful unit and I'd never take them, you know? Wasn't they're awful. They're quite high cost, they're only in toughness 3. You know you have heavy armor though, rather than just light. They're heavy armor.

There's only +5 though if they haven't got Shields, you know. Yeah, yeah, no, the two handed weapons, well, yeah, can't assure. US. Yeah. Oh, no, sorry. Not 2 handed weapons. Sorry. They're halberdiers aren't they? Sorry, no, no halberds. Sorry, not halberdiers. Halberds. But. Yeah, though I quite like them. I've got to be honest. I I rather like to.

I haven't used them very often again, but I only painted them up and then didn't get many games in after I painted them up. But but that in theory, yeah, OK. They're, they're pretty in sense of if they get attacks, you know, if they get charged or if you're getting charged, you've made a mistake anyway because they've got high movement rates. They should be charging. They're charging, they're striking first.

You just got to do enough on the charge to, you know, in the initial attack, they're not taking many attacks back, you know, You know, they shouldn't be able to do that. Yeah. But I mean the issue with a lot of the elite infantry in in fourth was of course they only had one attack each and you had usually you know from the five. So and you will still miss on one and two.

So even though I mean they had good strength and good weapons, can you maybe get 2 kills and you know that doesn't perhaps get you that far. It doesn't. But how many kills is your opponent getting as well so maybe? It's Chaos Warriors. With high yeah, well, yeah, but maybe things got against Chaos Warriors isn't the best move anyway, but. You know, yeah. But I mean, even if you get the chance to shot, I mean, you're not, you know, guaranteed to win. Against no, no, no.

But very few units are. You know, in reality, yes, OK, you need a bit of luck with them, but you do with most troops. You know, just just taking a unit of 10 probably isn't going to get you very far. You do need to rank them up. You need to have those ranks. Maybe a magic banner. OK, yes, he pushes up their cost even further. That's not like a banner of might on that unit. Yeah, no, I mean that it was the way it was back then. So they didn't, you know, stand

out in any way. But you, you could always, you know, half expect your elite to just bounce off and do nothing. I mean. Now white lions on the opposite. On the other hand, I adore the white lions. They're my some of my favorite high off models, says Marauder. White lights because they just looks they're like beefy elves, but they definitely suffer from the from the same issue as great swords, the striking last with very little armour. You know, they've got light armour on.

So, so, so they have all the problems that we discussed with great swords. Yeah, OK, yes, they have an extra point of strength. They have an extra point of weapon skill. Yeah, that's great. But they just aren't going to survive. No, they're going. To die so so fees God. If you take your argument in fees God but amplify even further like like beautiful models but they just this is not worth taking them. They look good on the tabletop, but they don't perform very well.

I think the elite High elf inventory don't perform well. And you know, if, if I've I've never really played competitively, but if if I were to, I'd never take any of them. Good thing we don't, so it's all about. You see 4th 4th is my favorite edition by a a country mile. But I do like the they made them slightly more fluffier. In later editions they added a a couple of things that made them

feel a little bit more. Yeah, I mean, we, we talked about that in the Empire review as well, that there were very few troops that I had any kind of special rules. They basically had, you know, stats that set them aside or, you know, the aesthetics and that that was it pretty much. And I don't know, did any of the higher troops have special rules? They had sword masters. They had special rules. Yeah, strike first sword masters, even though they had. Well, don't strike them small.

Yeah, it's more they don't strike last from they strike first. You mean it's? It's oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just won't always strike last. Now what? 4th I think. That was another addition where they strike. Yeah, sorry, I get get my additions conflict. Yeah, I think all my arms do eventually, yeah. But they start. What they start from is, is the transition of third into 4th. In that with third, you charging didn't guarantee that you strike

first. Yeah. So having a high initiative was really good because you were more likely to strike first when they removed that Heil suffered from that one all they all suffered from that one because all of a sudden having that really high initiative only mattered it latter rounds and because you didn't push back anymore. So a lot of the time you were, if you charged in, did a lot of wind, you're breaking the enemy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so you need to be less

important. So you're paying a lot of points for having a really high initiative. So most of the time you'd strike first so there was little striking back against you. But in fourth that became less relevant. So those armies that had high initiative suddenly were penalised almost. So that's probably where that is a hang up from from that one I'm afraid. You kind of roll with the punches. So with Empire, we talked about a little bit about the the actual book, the army book.

They it was the first one. And maybe they, you know, the layout was not very user friendly. It was just, you know, they threw you into the background and really tell you what it was all about in the book, you know, how it was pursued. Did that change for the high book? Was it for you when you started? Yeah, yeah, there's a little. Bit more, but not lots. So what what was the experience for you Tim, when you started? Was it easy to understand what how you were supposed to play or

how did you? Yeah, it's it's, it's, it's not. I don't think it's a whole lot clearer from the Empire book. But the the big stand out for me is it was by Andy Chambers and Bill King. And I think Bill King had a big part of involving himself in the law and, you know, the, the, the, the background, you know, and, and then it really pulls

your way. And, you know, the one of my most favorite pages in the whole book is actually the map, you know, and coming from Lord of the Rings, how a lot of people do come through this way is I have to spend hours just looking at the maps, you know, and, and the old world map and, and the maps in the books is a really big pull for me, you know, and I love the map page and it's only a few pages in, I think, but it's those sorts of elements and those sorts of details, you

know, that I really love, you know, but it's such great background material, you know, Bill King did such a brilliant job. Yeah, I mean a proper author. So I mean he. It's a proper author, but it's interesting as well that it's the only book that says with Jess Goodwin, he, he, he gets a credit, as you know, as one of the authors and he he doesn't appear in any of the others. So he must have had quite a big, quite a part of putting together

the book together. Rick talks about that kind of thing in one of the, you know, those film drink or film deck, whatever they are interviews. He talked about that kind of thing and he intentionally tried to move away from accreditations to people that were involved because A, it was becomes the long list of people. Yeah. But B, there's probably a commercial aspect of it too. If you're not accrediting everyone there, there is

possibly a commercial aspect. I'm not going to try and throw shade or anything like that, but there's probably a little bit of financially it's a different set up to a few credit absolutely everybody. Yeah. I don't, I don't know if that's exactly the reason why, but he does say he tried to move away from that. Just say it's a collective effort from the company. Bear in mind he was part of the buyout. So, yeah, yeah, could be something financial there, I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah, we did. We have got into the the background and the, you know, the story part and a bit. So I mean, obviously that evolved a lot from 3rd and maybe there wasn't much of that at all in 3rd, but in both they got a pretty, you know, strong back story and they have the Tyrion Teklas. And I remember there was this timeline as well and I was reading through that and there was these little mini stories. There was some Empire total tail invasion of invasion attempt of or something.

They just got massacred on beach and good stuff. Well, the Emperor will try, Empire will try was the Empire was the Emperor was it? I can't remember something after a year ago. I think there was something about, you know, they had 500 nights or something and they were trying to attack. Oh, OK, all right. Yeah, it's a very long time since I've read all the background I. Recently. Yeah, I seem to remember that, I think. It was Neil Farian stories, and they're still just.

Yeah. So which is your favorite story? Fantastic minor that's that's probably the difference is third. They kind of encourage you to come up with a narrative yourself, and ardent third players who aren't necessarily enamoured with 4th will turn around and say 4th is when they start spoon feeding it to you. But it's bloody good, so I'll open up and swallow the spoon feed for now. Even more fleshed out.

It's a little bit too much, but for now I think there's still enough there to do your own thing. For me personally, I'd say one of the biggest disappointments from that period is I never got to have an Aryan on the tabletop. Like an Aryan for me is one of the greatest characters of all time. Like his story, his his arc where, you know, he's fighting back the hordes of chaos. And yeah, I know and, and picks up the, the, the sword of Cain and, and all that.

For me, I absolutely loved all of that background story and in, in the Empire book to just to go back to your previous one, you know, you had a dead character in there. You had Magnus the Pius, so they had historical characters in the special characters list. But he never got a model. Though he he didn't get a model, but you could, you still had the rules, so you could, you know, at least play him on the tabletop. And he was a bit rubbish.

He he wasn't great. Because he appears me never tried him so don't know still need to do. That he would have, he, he would have been massively overpowered because he was, you know, he took on like 4 greater demons at once and things like that. But I'd loved a couple of historical characters because the background is so rich and because there is so much there, you know, we didn't get any in

the 4th. Yeah, but it's all I guess you could argue it's kind of. Here are the characters, IE the actual army list characters, not special characters. Build your own. Yeah. Yeah, that was kind of more the attitude the the special characters were a brand new thing, really in full, you know, we're only two books in. Yeah. So that's one of the reasons why I don't think I always get many

special characters. It was more the the plethora of special characters for the Empire was that they made the models for them initially, whether they were going to be special characters or just kind of, you know, just to generate it was going to be an elect account. And then they made a few more and thought, well, there's oh, we might as well give them names. I don't know, I don't know the exact thinking behind it, but special coaches were a brand new thing at the time.

It wasn't going to be something that necessarily was going to take off the way it did. They were popular in the end. So they added more and more in. You know, they gave another high of 1 further down the line. Only one more, not not loads more in fourth, but they give us one more they could. Have done. Maybe we need to take a short break. Now we do need to because I'm a cheapskate and I'm not paying for Zoom.

One thing we didn't talk about really, Tim, how was your painting experience back in the days? Did you? Was it a necessary evil or were you into it? So what was your situation? I mean, I, I did try and, and I was thinking to myself till, till when I was younger and I, I can't decide whether they're the easiest or the hardest army to paint because it's one of these things that spray the mic, put a bit of methyl silver on bit of blue here and there and they're kind of done.

Easy to paint, hard to paint well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what is the easiest army to paint? What is the hardest army to paint? That's quite a tricky question, isn't it? Yeah. I'm dead is the easiest beyond the shadow of it out. But you need to take a lot of, I mean, it's so you need to, you know, paint a lot of skeletons. If you paint like a chaos on you

could anyway with 30 models. I mean when I very when I first started most of my spin and had broken Spears because the plastic would snap off and they they looked pretty dreadful anyway. But I mean, when I got a bit older and I started buying more of the metal miniatures and, and, and, and the, the special characters, I, I did a attempt to paint, but I didn't know any of the techniques. I didn't know about, you know, washes or anything like that, you know, so it was basic blocking in.

So they were the first. Army paint in the right part of the model. Yeah, Happy with that. Yeah. They were the first army I ever painted or tried to make an effort to paint.

But I was really lucky that my local Games Workshop store, I was allowed to borrow the models from the cabinet so I, I could borrow their techless Centurion in my army, even though I had my own, But so it looked as though I had quite a, a well painted army, you know, because everyone focuses on the, you know, your general ignoring the dodgy ones at the back. But you know, I idolised after all of the heavy metal, you know, images that you saw in White Dwarf and the, the, the I

could never match them. I was never particularly good. I mean, back in the days it looked totally impossible to, you know, reach those levels. And today, you know, yeah, for some of the paid jobs are obviously iconic, but I mean, a lot of models you were all ordered by back in the days. Today, you know, more average perhaps.

But things has happened. And I mean, for us, it took years before I even laid eyes on any really well paid models because we didn't have any Games Workshop stores and we were just a small isolated group played. And I mean, I had maybe at most half, half painted army and I was way out of everyone else in that group. So no one really painted the models. So it was just, you know, if you wanted to see anything painted, you had to go to the White Wolf Bat report. So that was pretty much play

sort. Yeah. Understandable. Yeah, Yes, I. Think The thing is as well for me is like if, if if you use a, a spray can of white, blue goes on really well on white blue goes on quite well on, on, on most undercoats, you know, and, and, and methyl Silva works quite well, you know, so you could usually slap on one coat and you were done. You know, it wasn't like, you know, if, if, if you were playing an Imperial Fist Space Marine army where you had to put 15 coats of yellow on it, you know?

All right. So, yeah. So when when did you actually get your first painted army? How long did that take before you guys had any fully painted? I probably I did paint the high off Army and it was the 4th edition models, but it was probably 2000.

I painted anything probably in the 2000s, but prior to that I did have a 4th edition paint design but it wasn't painted by me. I basically left all painting to my brother who did art at school, so I felt he could do a better job of them, whereas my artistic ability at that time was negligible. I tried especially when Rick Precis did an article about painting high holes, probably about a year or so before it hit 5th, because that's when he switched over to high. It was roundabout.

Then when Fat Dwarf came along, it was like one of the first issues of Fat Wolf and it was quite a, quite a good article and it inspired me to have a crack at it. And that's probably transitioned into the army. You know, it took me about five years to actually get around to painting enough models to class it as an army, though. But I sold that one off. And then I've had about 5 or 6 different attempts to paint hives since. Just about managed to do something I'm content with.

I'm not. I'm really happy with it because it was painted very quickly before the birth of my son. Very quickly. It's basically just base colours and a soft tone Army painter. Quick shade wash probably. Works. Yeah, that's.

OK, but it could be cleaner. I mean, what, what really got me into paying more attention to painting my armies was getting in an hour early to games days because I found out that if you entered games work at the Golden Demon Awards, you'd queue up an hour early to get into games days.

So that was my motivation. So when we went over to what was it the, the NEC in, in Birmingham, I think it was 96, the first one I went to, but I, I, I painted it would have been it would have been like AI think it was a high of general or something like that. I might be getting it confused with something else, but was the highest general on the on the horse? I think it was.

But it it was a terrible job. You know, I didn't do a particularly good job of it, but it was A at the time I was incredibly proud of it. And it it it made me step up my game and it made me sort of try and push myself a little bit more to make a bit more of an effort to the rest of my army as

well. You, you, you kind of start with your special characters and your your main generals to to put that bit of extra, extra effort in and then it kind of bleeds out to your other things, you know, so when. I'm making when I make an army I always try to do the infantry first to just get the boring stuff out of the way and do the characters later. But from a learning curve like

that makes sense of course. It's always building up to the special characters to me that it's a chore the the Lion Infantry. Yeah, but I'd like to get them out of the way first, so yeah. Yeah, all. Right. So when did you actually like achieve a fully painted army? About when? Probably a year or two after that. I'd say probably 9798 would have been my first fully painted

army. I mean, it would have been 1500 points, 2000 at most, I think, You know, I mean, now as an adult, I think my last count was about 1111 thousand. Yeah. Was was that a? Fully painted army. A fully painted army. Just a quick question, was that 1500 including Tyrion and Texas? Because if it was, that's about 500 points.

I'll be perfectly honest, I was too intimidated to paint Tyrion Tetless. I was so scared of doing them wrong that I kind of left it. I, I because Mike Mcveigh's, you know, such fantastic work, so iconic. I didn't really do them. I didn't really paint them because I didn't want to ruin them. Because they they looked so good just. How could you ever achieve that level? Yeah. My my paint job would have made them look so much worse that I, I, I never painted them.

I've painted them obviously since coming back into the hobby but back in the day I always left them because I was like right build up to it when I'm good enough and I've never felt good enough. Until recently. Yeah, so, so a fully painted army, a fully painted army, you know, didn't include the the top end just because I didn't have the guts. I wasn't comforted enough. I can't blame you for that one. That's that's very true.

They are very daunting. I know throwing him a little bit less so I think he's still a lovely model, but he's not quite that pinnacle that he's Tyrion Techlist from the 4th edition Army. They're just I'm actually trying to do now to to paint him. I plan on giving it to my my friend who got me into the hobby who played always played high elf and I know he doesn't have his army anymore. But yeah, I just want to finish Techlist for him for. Him. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. The the the only thing I would say about that Tetless model is that the bloody staff always snaps off. The head of the staff seems to. Depends how well she manhandled him, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's. Down. Look at him. Don't touch him. OK with quite a few models. I think the what's his name, the special character the empire whistle as well. He's not the grantee of he's

being patriarchal. For me it's the high off swords, it's it's the swords on the standard bearer that that's holding the sword against his chest and it's Tyrion sword. Technically stuff ain't got an issue with but Tyrion sword because it the metal comes into a really thin bit where it meets the hill. Yeah. Most if you look on eBay, If you look at Tyrion on eBay, a lot of them have got broken swords. Yeah, and the nasty sword it was. Yeah. Yeah. Sun hanging. What's that one? Yeah, yeah.

All right, So should we get into the actual list and, you know, do a bit of review of the entrance? Entrance. And we did talk a bit about the Phoenix Garden, the white wolves, so that I don't actually have the list in front of me. Should we do some sort? Of well, I've done about team, but I I I think probably characters bog standard ones is not a lot to say differently about them to the empire in the sense that you know, they are

just bog standard. You know, yes, OK, they are, you know, better qualities than the than the Empire, but the actual principle of hero Lord, you know, battle stand bare, those sort of things, the principles of them don't change. Whereas the regiments, there's a bit more variety there in what they are, if that makes any sense.

The, the one thing I would say about the, the high Alf General and you know, is the toughness 4, you know it, it's got a toughness 4 and it is one of the few models that's not a special character that's got a toughness 4. And that makes a massive difference.

And and when it moved over to 6th, I can't remember if it's the case in 5th, but in 6th everything's toughness 3, you know, and, and, and it's like you could spend a lot of points on your characters, kicked them all out in all the special, you know there. Wasn't even that many special magical armours that are any good in 6th for high elves either. It made them really brittle. Yeah, the, the Toughness 3 is such a, you know, it's the biggest weakness, I think of the High Elves.

And having that toughness 4 on the general is is is a luxury you can't often afford. Yeah, there's a, there's an article that Gav, I think it's Gav thought right. So you did the dark output because that was the first output they did for sick. It was dark out. And he talks about a conscious decision to make more toughness 3. And I thought, you're a Dwarf player, you gig. You done that intentionally.

It's it's like the high cost because they are are high cost models with, you know, the toughness 3. You know glass? Yeah, so. What was your point or both of your points on about the BSB that standard bells, did you use them or were they? Didn't used to. No, I didn't used to do now. I, I love having them because they're a good centrepiece for my army when I play for the, the visual aspects of the game, you know, that, that, that having models on the board.

But yeah, back in the day I never played with Battlestone bearers or anything like that, you know? Yeah, and talking about Bristol, I mean they had one wound and Toughness 3, so yeah. But almost, almost 100 points, it's, it's quite a big investment. It is, but that re roll of break. So anything that gives you a re roll that was useful because it's a nice game. So anything that gives you that is really useful. So in game terms now, I love battle standard bearers, but yeah, you're right.

They are. They are. You know, as soon as you start giving them, you know, magic items, then their points cost is pushing up for something that, as you say, 1 wound. It's it's yeah, they are. Yeah, I don't think Kyle said any special characters, better standards. No, no, I think, I think, Oh, I suppose you could class Niblet as one. I think Empire's the only one. Empire, Austin Goblins. And if you class Niblet, they're the only ones with a special character. Battle Santa Berra, I think.

I can't think of any others. There there was an absolutely fantastic conversion I remember seeing in one of the golden demons of a high elf battle standard bearer. I can't think what issue which issue it is. Is that the it's the one up on its legs? It looks absolutely amazing. He is, yeah. He's awesome. I think he, I think he's in the there's, there were a load of books that you'd read about that time as well, about converting and paintings, all that.

I think he's in one of those as well as as a showcase item. So yeah, no, he's a beautiful, beautiful model. He uses the same banner as the drawing following up for the battle standard bearer in the high off book. He uses that standard and he's probably the inspiration actually for the model looking at it. Yeah. You know, yeah, but he's amazing. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Awesome all. Right. So the troop choices I guess is next. Yeah, it starts with the

cavalry. So you've got your Silver Helms, your Evenites, and then your Dragon Princess. And back in the day I never used Dragon Princess because they were more expensive. And as far as I could see, Silver Helms did the same job but were marginally cheaper.

Yeah, OK Dad. Pointless on the armour side, but I'd always go Silver Helms had the models and I didn't like the barding on the Dragon Princess back in the day because the silver helm was a nice flowy, you know, material guarding and then the Dragon Prince had hard metal guarding. I didn't like that. They were too different. My autistic mind couldn't handle it. They were different. I don't know what's going on there. I don't like that they've got to

be the same. But yeah, I don't know how. Tim, how do you do you use Dragon Princess at all? I mean, I, I just love the models, you know? I mean, most of my love of High elves goes back to the models and dragon pinchers I think are superior in in terms of the design of them in in my humbled opinion. But I, I. I I. Get them on the table. Yeah, each one is a bit of character, yeah. I get them on the table as often as I can because I just think they look amazing.

Yeah my my friend, my regular porn of T is will buy them as well so I always pay. But in in terms of points, I can't think of any more expensive. Like is it chaos nights maybe? Far more recently doubled potentially. Chaos Nights, but up up there is one of the most expensive cavalry you can buy, aren't they? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And of course in the end there's other issues. The elite troops as well. The they only had one attack. So I mean you rarely had more

than 5 wides. So I mean, if you rolled a bit poorly, it was. You know. The thing that stopped me taking them more than anything else is the fact that because I split my box with my mate who had goblins, he would obviously take, you know, fanatics and fanatics. No armour save toughness 3, you know, that's your whole, you know, what would it be if you took a, a unit of 10? That's 430 points. Did you? Did you normally place your general in the unit or how did you do that?

I mean, if, if, if, if I could, it was usually on a horse, usually with the the the dragon Princess. So yeah. So. It. Didn't fare very well. Looked good. It did look good, didn't play very well. And did you use light cap? I did because I had the models, But back in the day, I could never really figure fast cavalry out. They're a bit more of a tactician's you cavalry, aren't they? And actually, in fact, they're really, really useful. Back in the day, no, it didn't

really seem like are you? I mean. I gave a machine so you're no longer fast cavalry most of the time so. Yeah, I mean, they think they didn't have heavy arm and no dances and stuff and it's boring. It's so manoeuvrable, you know, with that, with that movement of, you know, the only thing that can compare with obviously Flyers, the only thing to compare with them is wolf riders or slanishy demonettes on stage. Yeah, but they had insane. Movements. Yeah, I know, but that's what I mean.

That's the only thing you can compare with Revanites. Well, I suppose you've got the Dark Elf and Wood Elf equivalents, but you're actually better, obviously, because they've got the stupid special rules. But yeah, Revanites now I need to get some painted.

But no, I do plan to use them quite extensively and possibly more so than heavy cavalry because I think maybe having fast covering out there doing what it's doing and then have a defensive line of of spin and basically would be the starting point for an army for me. But. That's just it. I mean, when I when I play now, Revanites are one of the first units I put in my list.

I absolutely adore them. I love them, you know, they're, they're good at harrying the enemy and they're good at doing a bit of shenanigans and March blocking and things like that. Back in the day there were another one that slipped me by. Just affordability really more than anything else. I I think I got 5 Gary Morley's in towards the end of, you know, 5th in my army. But I, I never had the IT was it Marauder the were they originally Marauder revenites

where they had lances? Yeah. Nerelli Morrison. Yeah, I think so. I. Never had those. Yeah, I've got those that did, Payton. I they they seem quite rare those models because I never really came across many people using them. They're out there. Yeah, they are out there. You can find me, baby. They are. I don't know how expensive they are now. I bought loads of them back in the day. I mean I I got back into Warhammer.

I'm not getting off on the one on here so I'm going to try not to but basically when the old hammer movement started I was for. I didn't create it at all, but I was in at the at the early days of it. At that time you could pick up miniatures on eBay for next to nothing like. That, yeah. So I've got loads of Reed nights then I just need to paint them. Yeah. But I think since we all have that in common, we didn't really appreciate the finer values of the tactical movements and stuff.

It was more, you know, heavy heights. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, then you've got the really unique Tyrannock Chariot. The 4th edition version or with one blooming one crew? It's not gorgeous, the model. Lovely old stunning model and I often. Gorgeous. Model on foot as a general because he was on with a halberd. So you know, in low cost games you didn't need a magic weapons. You're a halberd and he's a stunning, stunning model. Yeah. But the Tierra itself is very brittle because he's only got 1

crew. Yeah. Could you put a character on the sheriff back then or? Yeah, but he replaced the one crew, man, 1 crew, but probably, possibly, you know, if he has, if he has more wounds and you know, an idea of three or four of them charging in probably looks quite cool and reveal more survival. Obviously back in the day he's buying 3 tier knot 3 or 4 tier knot Chariots. You're lucky to buy one. Yeah, I guess that's with all characters.

I mean, you just had to kill one of the horses and it was. Pretty much exactly, Yeah. So never you really. I had the model for quite a long time, but didn't really use it that much. I said I think a unit of three or four now probably get my hands on. I think I've got them in pieces somewhere. So that one is something to try that might be quite cool. But no, back in the day they didn't really use to knock

chariot. You see, this is the the weird thing for me. I mean it, it, it was never a word when we were growing up, but the the meta back then, you know, so I, I played fantasy for seven years in in the 90s and I very rarely saw Chariots. Like not very many seem seem to take Chariots. I don't know why it it just didn't seem to be a popular. I think it must have been that they, they were simply too vulnerable that they could get

disabled so easily. I mean, any, any shooting attention, they were at big risk of just becoming a, you know, a terrain piece. Yeah, and and you can't March with them as well. So even though they should be fast, they were quite slow. Yeah, it's, it's a bit of in terms of money, it's an investment of money for one modelling effect. Yeah. So, so you know, if, if the cost of a year of, you know, 3 Dragon Prince is like that was a box set of three models, 43 points

per model. So you got 120 points in effect in that, but or 130, you know, around about there 200 charity 72 points or more than the dragon Prince box set. So people just weren't buying them because from a from a points to or rather cash to points. And I it's not necessarily the one to go down because then you get arguing slaves and goblins and those sort of things.

But just literally from a higher point of view, you know, from terms of you know, I could spend my money and get get value for money or I could buy A2 knot chariot that is quite OK strong on the charge. But in everything else weak as heck and vulnerable as you said, you know, easy to take them out. Yeah, I don't, I don't think Chariots are were fiscally worth it at the time. Yeah, because it's an addition that randomized what you hear. You. You. You know strength 3 arrows.

Enough of them would easily take down a chariot, wouldn't it? Take out the crap. Yeah, You could either shoot the guy off or they could kill. Yeah, Yeah. And I mean like 10 bow shots and you had a pretty good chance of, you know, rendering it. It's a big reason why they changed the chariot rules and turn them into one model. Yeah exactly. Turning into 11 stat. But it did look awesome. It did look so. Cool. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No chariot. That chariot was gorgeous. Another.

You know, it doesn't matter which entry you look at. Yeah. In this in the book, all the models are gorgeous. I've even fallen in love with the Marauder sword masters, which was a hard thing to do because those Rd. sword masters are very goofy. Yeah, because their legs don't. But the shape of the the clothing, the skirt, what a better term the legs need.

The feet weren't in the right position for it looks like they're wearing corsets underneath the the legs aren't in the right, the feet aren't in the right place for the shape of the. But when I painted them, I fell in love with them. Actually painting them, seeing the character develop as you paint the model. Oh hell. I prefer them over the the Morley ones now. Hands down. The Morley ones are more beautiful. I don't know if it was Morley or one of the other one of the guys

under. It's Morley. They're beautiful. They're more beautiful than the high off one, than the high. Sorry, than the Marauder ones, but the Marauder ones have so much more character. I don't think the Morley ones have as much character as the Marauder 1. I tell you, just looking at it now, the, the, the mark given sketch of the of the sword masters. I really love that picture. Yeah. Yeah, iconic that one.

Yeah, and they did have the rules that sort of negate the two handed weapon, yeah, disadvantage. So I mean, that made them, I think. There was one issue with them and they they sold it with Chronicles of War and as a champion given a double handed weapon wouldn't have that rule. Yeah. So he was striking last. But then in Chronicles of War they gave you sort of ho with which was a double handed sword, the death strike last with for 25 points.

So that was kind of automatically the give for a for a champion. But prior to that he was like OK so the sword masters want to be striking last, but a champion would be if you give him a double handed weapon and he has to have a double handed weapon or another different magic weapon obviously because he's a champion so has to be on the same as his unit. I mean the sword masters is what I would take more often than not in terms of elite infantry.

I I I would tend to pick the sword masters even though they're the most expensive with 16 points each. I would tend to choose sword masters over yeah, you know, the Phoenix Guard or or or the. White lines. The Wolf. The wolf lines, White lines. Sorry, white lines. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they have a pretty good chance of actually getting their attacks off. And I mean, yeah, 5 is still not bad at all. So and it is it weapon skill 5 or 4 on those? Five, Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, actually. Strength 5 as well on you know when they're using the the they're. Going to hit both troops on threes and moving on, you know, twos or threes. So that's not bad. In actual fact have to use double hand sword because according to the unit entry they don't have a handle weapon, even though every model is supposed to come with a handle weapon and standard in. Yeah, but they can't choose to.

No, same as Venus actually, with halberds and yeah, white lines, double handed axe again, they they don't actually have a hand weapon, so all three of them have to use that weapon. Yeah. I mean, that's what you did back in the day, so I don't think. Oh, absolutely. You never repeated on it. And they and they quite have Shields, so there's no reason not to use that weapon.

I suppose you could argue, well white lines is still about strength for, so potentially you might use them just with their hand weapon against some troops because in some cases you don't need the strength of. No, I mean, if the choice was getting some attacks off or probably not. So yeah. Yeah, they still got strength 4 anyway, so. So I think there is an argument for them having hand weapons, but they don't. So you don't have. Makes things easier.

You don't need to make any choices, you just deal with it. So I guess we covered the elite infantry then that was that was three and. And then it comes the weirdness of High of Spin in Luther and Sea Guard and health Warriors. That's because you're also looking at when they design the book, they're also keeping the old range in mind where you had handle, weapon and shield armed warrior models. So that's why you've got High of Warriors in there as well.

You know, I think if this had been further down the line in fourth they release this book, you don't have Spearman, Lother and Sea Guard. They might even lump Lother and Sea Guard into the Spearman entry as well, possibly. But what was the equipment choices for the the normal warriors or the? Weirdly, you could give the warriors Spears. Yeah, and what's the end of the Spearman? Spearman.

L4 is the same stats, right? And the only other thing you can give them is Spears. Oh, and you could also give them light armour. So the spear men came with light armour and shield and sword and a spear? Yeah. Then your elf warriors came with a hand weapon and a shield, and you can give them light armour and Spears. Yeah, bit of a redundancy. It just seems a bit damped. There we go. And of course Lothian Sea Guard, which are spear men with bows as

well. Although although in their initial entry, bows are an upgrade. So there's Spearman who can take bows, you've got Spearman, Spearman who can take bows, and Spearman. They don't have Spears, but you can give them Spears. They're the three entries for Bob. Studded infantry for you. Feels a bit weird. You can also give the Roth and Sea Guard halberds as well. They're never released that. Yeah, no, you can. They're never released models for them, so you'd have to have

converted. Well, they weren't, well, they weren't lost NC Guard models until fifth. There were no both NC Guard models. You were you kind of took Spearman and either said they had bows on them even if they didn't, or you ordered some separate bows and you know, quivers and stuck them on their backs. But yeah, until until the the Morley ones are fifth, there were no often C Guard models and comes from actually the Lothern Sea Guard principle.

Well, obviously they were Lothern Sea Guard really, really early Warhammer days and we were resident of renown to start with. There was Lothern Sea Guard really early high off models. But really what that comes from is in 3rd you could have merchant companies where half of them had bows and the other half had Spears. So you line them up in OK, that makes sense. Spears, bows at the front, Spears behind so they could poke

them through and attack. But they ditched that sloth and see on and then gave it to dark Elms in City guard when it came to the Dark Elm book. So I was a bit weird. But that's what that's mainly where that idea comes from, I think kind of like the ship's company and the and the merchant company from 3rd. So yeah. But obviously Spearman, I mean they are iconic high of troops. They were usually present in most almost I guess. So it would be weird if anyone didn't take.

Them I did a really silly thing where I was no, I was determined to swap all my plastic for metal when I started again. So I got rid of all the plastic Spearman and replace them with the metal ones. But the legitimate version it it it. So I've I've got 60 of them. Yeah, I thought. I'd do my with 40 some more now. I know I was really happy when I got that 60th because it took took such a long time to troll through eBay to get that last

one. But yeah, they're, they've become like my favorite prized possessions because. And they're all painted up by now or. They're all painted up. Oh yeah. And how many of them are individuals? I guess some of. Three. There's three variances, isn't there? I suppose if you've got the 5th Ed ones that are holding the spear like that as well. Yeah, yeah. And. You knows. I've got a couple of those, but it it's it's mainly the the 4th

Ed ones I've got. The three variants, yeah, there's not a lot of variation between them either. You can tell they're variants. You have to look closely, but they are gorgeous models. They're they're some of the yes betweens Jessica wins. Absolute finest. Stunning. Absolutely stunning. It, it, it's when I started collecting again, you know, as as an older gentleman that I kind of appreciate the, the detail in a metal model versus plastic gets a little bit soft.

I think some of the detail in in in the the 4th edition high of plastic models, but the the the metal models are definitely superior. So oh A. 100% hundred. Percent, yeah. And when I play back in the days for my Empire army, I didn't have any of the metal state troops because, I mean, they were expensive and they weren't around really. So now I have them. But yeah, it's it's not very easy to get those. So you definitely need to put some effort into it.

But I agree, they're definitely very nice. So I mean, the monoliths has their shown, but still, yeah. I was always really lucky as well that when I, when I played back in the day, every single battlefield I played on featured a fairly decent hill. So I was able to park my, you know 2 lines of arches on top of the hill and then a good block of Spearman in front of them. And that was almost my default deployment every single time. You know it's.

Standard for health? I I play today and it kind of upsets me the lack of hills there are on battlefields. It's like it's. It's they're doing you dirty. I probably do that to me. Then I play some dwarfs. The other day my brother did that to me. Didn't have a single hill for any crossbow men to stand on. Exactly. Just a reminder here when we. We are, we are. I was just going to say, I was going to look from the spinning into The Archers.

The Archer metals had a lot more variation than the than the spinning metals did The Archers. You can definitely tell the difference between each model very quickly and very easily. Gorgeous models as well as were the plastics, yeah. But I I think that's pretty much the troops. Most yeah got shadow warriors who are useful against dark elves and useful skirmishers, but they're pretty much just a bog standard Archer disabled skirmish really can have a

shield as well. The only thing really left would be the war machines with you bolt throws being 50 points. Tim, do you upgrade to 100 points per bolt throw? I don't. Tell the truth. I don't. I'm honest. I mean I I love 4th edition, it's my favorite edition and I think high elves are a disadvantage against most other armies so I think it's a good balance having 50.8 or something. I don't know how to. Oh yeah, no, don't, don't, don't be a Dick about it.

Yeah, but that's the same with most things with warm, isn't it? As long as as long as you're reasonable. Then I can hold my hand on my heart and say I've never taken more than two. Yeah, that's fair. It depends on the size of game as well I think. I think probably 1 per thousand points isn't taking points. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, to sum up my comment on repeat of both, I don't know where it cut off. Yes, I think it's fine to use them, just don't be a Dick with

them at 50 points. Yeah. They're they're they're definitely one of the stand out units. I think in the the higher for Army, you know, it's like you're always going to take at least one, you're always going to include one, you know, at the very minimal, you know, it's, it's, it's an iconic model as well, you know, yeah. 100 percent, 100%. Good stuff, right. So we'll try to finish this off with the special characters. And Tim has already claimed they

are the best in fourth mission. Might not get full agreement from the other members, but yeah, I mean, they're definitely very nice looking at and they have, you know, good background and all, so can't argue too much about that. But let's, yeah. If I were a very anal kind of person, I'm not. I'm not. Then there is one big drawback to the high of special characters. At least there is for the three

that are in the high of book. There's nothing anywhere officially that says they could be your general. So strictly unlike the Empire book that actually has a a comment in the pre army list blurb, Ray says any of these can be your general. Yeah, any of these are general. So there's some sort of comment that qualifies as being a general. Hope it doesn't have that that comment. OK, you'd have to be an asshole not to let someone use. I hope no children are watching

or listening. Sorry you asked me a bit of a nasty person not to let Ohio player use them as your general. Especially Tyrion considering and now throwing that both of them, the stories very definitely states that they are generals. Yeah, but that's the story. It's not the rules. So strictly speaking, none of them could be your general. Though I think Imrich that actually did put in a comment about he can be your general.

And I think they did that from the open gobbling books onwards, book onwards, they started putting in the actual character blurb that that person could be a general or this person could be a general. Don't do it in the Hive book. So strictly speaking, you can't take me to general. But again, you'd have to be a complete whatever not to let someone use, especially Tyrion as your general would have to

be, you know? Yeah, I imagine Tyrion would appears generally in plenty of I've armies at the time. Yeah. Oh yeah, he's probably Joe Most. Yeah, yeah, my friend did that one as well. So he was he was all over the place, let's just say. I found Delfarian more usable because because he's got the Tasman Hoareth as well. So he's another wizard, right? And he can move, or I mean, Mal Andy is fast, don't get me wrong, but he's not as fast as a flying monster. So I but that was back in the day.

I think now I'd probably find Tyrion the better character. Yeah, he certainly mixes anyone he touches. Yeah, and I guess he was a favorite of your team. Yours team. I I mean, he was also the model I used as a a my higher general as well, because you know, it, it, it was such an iconic model, but a movement 12 as well. I can't think of many is. Is there any other? Slannishy steeds, maybe? Yeah. I think those are the ones that's about it's I think.

Obviously flying flying characters beat it. Aside from flying characters, you know that movement 12 always. Yeah, but I mean, with the shots, it would have the range of a flyer on the ball. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty awesome, Yeah. Yeah, the only problem is is that encourages people to disregard going in with support, which may not be the best site. Yes, he he minted something he touches, but just going solo still might not be a great idea. You know, he can.

He can, he can. You know, you can definitely get in ahead of the Seal films and the Dragon Princess and the Revonites, but. Yeah, that's true. He, he, he is a little bit more tankier, you know, I mean with, with, with his two saves and also, yeah, you know, if, if, if he's reduced, reduced to 0 wounds, he'll come back. With one, one wound. Yeah, yeah.

But still, I mean he was hard enough to kill the first hand he. Will he will take a lot of punishment, but he's not completely invulnerable so going in without support might not be the best idea. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, he can actually shoot a bit of this sword as well, couldn't he? Yeah, some sort of flaming. Yeah, once per game I think it is. He can. He can shoot the flames out from something.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's probably one of those abilities you should probably just use as soon as you can, but a lot of people might try and save up for. Same with tech Lizzy Sword. Everyone kinds of oh, I'll hold on to those D6, you know, lightning strikes, just in case

I need them. Just use them because otherwise you'll hold on to them forever and use me against goblins or something like that because you're going to be able to use it against Neil. Yeah, we'll forget about it completely and get to use it right. So yeah, we talked a bit about Teklis and we haven't talked about High of Magic so far, but I mean, it was good. Just quickly hold on, just quickly.

Tektis is one of battery just because of it's it's one of my few anecdotes I've actually got of playing Hilos. So Tekleis in a game against a cardboard chaos army. My brother cut out like from cardboard from my shoe box, cut it up and use an army like, you know, back in the day. And he obviously he had made a plan for getting rid of Texas. Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky man. He made a plan. Oh boy. At the time he made a plan. So he mounted a Chaos Army standard bearer.

Bear in mind this is white book Chaos, not army book, so he's only a champion. OK. But anyway, he mounted this Chaos army standard bearer up on a disc. That's why it was each because he could have a disc and gave him the blasted standard and flew him straight towards Texas and smiled and giggled and cackled as he as he sent the blasted standard into Texas. Because basically the glasses standard, if it hits you, it's probably going to kill you. Was it 2D6 or something?

I'll come off the top of my head, but it's it's pretty nasty. It's and it's a one. It's a one to it's a one off magic spell. So if it's one off, it's going to be very nasty. Not a banner of Wrath. It's nasty, but you can do it every turn. This is only once once again, So it's going to be a really nasty spell. So he he sent it crashing into tech and he's laughing his head

off thinking now I've got him. I've taken out that 600 points, but no, no, no, no, no tech and he's had rebound and glass the sky minute. It was hilarious. Because he. He'd always been thinking up this plan for ages. He'd come up with it, and he was finally pulling it off. He was doing it. No, no, no, no, no. You're not doing that very funny. Yeah. It exhausted all my dispels, all that stuff. He knew the spell would get through, he thought.

Nothing could go wrong. Yeah, it was just, it was just hilarious to smile. His face soon dropped. My big thing about Tyrion and Tactless is in the law. Tetless is meant to be like weak and you know, feeble, but uses his magic to make himself stronger and things like that. But he's got 4 wounds and Tyrion's only got 3. Yeah, yeah. Because he says he loses his his potions and stuff to give him vitality. And then if you use the moon, half says all his characteristics, half, don't they?

So you've got to be very careful with the number of wounds he's taken when you choose to half his characteristics. Yeah. So strictly speaking, I guess if he's on one wound, you'd keep one wound, I would assume. Yeah, because. You always. Yeah, but it's still dangerous though. Yeah. You know, you go from 4:00 to 2:00 potentially, that's dangerous. So you've got to be very careful using the moon stuff. And then he does become a bit rubbish because, you know, every

single characteristic half. Oh dear, including his toughness. So, you know, he's, yeah, not great. So yeah, with high of magic really good, you know, dropping hints and stuff and you know, they had a great magic missile sort. Of the the best magic missile in the game, full stop. Yeah, you know, we we fire a convocation. They I suppose is is it a magic missile because it remains in play. Yeah, but I mean basically it

works like. Yeah, Basically, Yeah. Yeah, No, Yeah, The best magic missile spell in the game. Yeah, Yeah. Nothing else comes close. I don't think so. That one. So was magic. I mean, in 4th edition magic was big. Obviously it could cost him both players turns so he didn't want to be caught without one. But. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It was high off. Magic just reigned supreme. It was.

There were more offensive decks, but the flexibility of it, you know, the the fact that you also had a spell like Tempest that could do more damage to you than your opponent, which was a bit weird. So I'm not sure Tempest necessarily was the best spell for high Elms to cast. It seems more like a almost a scathing spell. Tempest really to me. I'm a bit weird, I suppose. I suppose you've got, you know, maybe they want to stop cannons firing and stuff like that. But generally speaking, that's

probably hypothesis. Would I I didn't use that really back in the day because that's resurrecting character. Yeah, that in Tempe is probably the two dodgy spells and it was and and a three power drain magic. But after that, all the rest of them great. Yeah, what are you thinking? What were your favourites? Yeah, it it was always, I always found magic in form at 4th. Quite random in that some games it could win you the game. You know, if, if if you played it right, it could win you the

game. But sometimes just didn't draw the right cards. You didn't get a a power level card, you didn't get a, you know, you, you got 3 dispelled cards in a row or something like that and you couldn't play anything. But it's sort of a a mini game on its own. So yeah, it was, I mean, I wouldn't want to be without it. I think if you and and that's one of the issues with dwarves. I mean, I I always miss the magic face if I play. Usually I don't but.

Yeah, I did like it in 5th when you could use a dispel as a power card. That was good. Close wasn't the other way round could you was it? I don't know, I don't play 5th in years but I seem to remember it was power cards as a dispel. Oh, maybe it was the other way around. Sorry. I'm thinking maybe it was just. You're right. I'm thinking of darker. I'm sorry. Yeah. But that was that little bit. Yes. Well, I mean the lesser version

was in fourth. Was it that you could put back power cards for hire also I think in order to try and get dispels and vice versa for darker so that you can put back dispels to try and get power. I think that's the way it. Was. Makes sense because offensive spells you're trying to get more spell.

Yeah, that would that would be the way around it was I'm pretty sure, but they didn't go quite as far as aisles as fifth know where you could just use the card as which actually, yeah, that's that's probably one of the few upgrading 5th well upgrade in 5th that I'd I'd go with were were decent upgrades. So I don't remember exactly but was technically a better cost than a standard one I guess. Was he level 5 or? Yeah, he's level 5 with his Warcraft.

It was the first level 5 and then the gash they added and accepts. Yeah, no, actually, because Walcott Safari wasn't limited to just technically wasn't a technically's only magic item. So you can give it to any high off wizard. And then Nagash came along with the book of Nagash and you can use the book of Nagash plus, obviously you could use the book of a shirt. But yeah, yeah, if you're playing campaign.

And they really did need to bring in some sort of rule for that, because everyone just use the book of a shirt all the time. Yeah, like 50 points and you could choose. Exactly. Yeah, it it was the same cost as a spell for me, but you actually got the level and you could use any deck. Yeah, so I mean, you could make a goblin shame and as good as, you know, insanely expensive. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I mean, he obviously you've got to be careful with the goblin because boom, you know his head. Yeah, Head. Bang. I mean but the the. The the the Sword of Techlist always felt like a waste of points. The wizard, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was the same. We talked about the the Ice Queen. She had a yeah.

I I think the sword of Techlist, not necessarily the always wounding thing, because I've got a problem with always wounding but not affecting armour saves anyway because it kind of you might wound, but you've still got, you know, the armour safe's still there. But for him, I think it's more the D6 light loss. It's the get away from me when a when a flyer comes in and attacks him.

Yeah, he's got he's standing on the hill next to repeat a bolt for her and the flyer comes in. He says get away from me last ditch effort and try and save him. But I I would rather not take it and save the 100 points if yeah. Got to be hard blade or something like that. But he would be super overpowered though if you could take that off if you could remove magic items. Get him some other item that was. You know better. Yeah, still very quick.

Always wondered and I don't. I don't know how true this is, but I always wondered if initially the plan was that Techies was going to be the war, the warrior and Tyrion to be the wizard name ones because the sword of techni in the initial box felt like a warrior's sword. Yeah, could be. Yeah, I don't. I can't remember a blurb. I probably if I read the blurb, I'm completely wrong. It's just literally I say you always thought that. It's just literally just occurred to me.

Now sitting here, I'm in the chat, I say I always thought, no, I didn't mean that at all. What I meant was I've just had a thought. Yeah, you get the question out to the right. So what's left? It's Altarian. Well, Faring, yeah, in my eyes one of the best all round characters because you'd also be a wizard as well. Although you could only take and this was a mistake everyone used to make back a day. Even made it in a battle report, which isn't rare.

I've made a lot of mistakes about reports. The Talisman you could only take college magic actually. It's actually in the right up of the magic item. OK, the lower, higher you? Can't take no magic for it. Yeah, so. So yes, you can have two spells, but I have to be 1 of the the eight colleges he takes. So typically I'd, I'd normally take amethyst, not amethyst celestial, because that's kind of storms and stuff like that. And he's, and he's very much Storm Wing, you know, That's,

that's yeah. Makes sense? Yeah, but but yeah, he's sort of a bit poo though. He's fangs. He's got a great the Fang sword, but it kind of OK. It's a parrying blade and a blade of sea gold in one. So it's minus to say we've actually got a wound though, and that was always his issue is actually wound. OK. He's got a lot of Griffin that should do wounds, but you know, wounding with him was the issue. Yeah, straight forward doesn't really count it against, you know, hard characters.

Exactly. So that yes, OK, they would probably lose their their arms saved mostly. But yeah, actually getting the wound in in the 1st place was a problem. Lovely model got a Lance. But but you know the I think the rules actually state if you've got a magic weapon you use that. I think the rules even state that. So the Lance would never be used, even though that's what he needs on the charge, Yeah.

Yeah. He's he's still on my bucket list of things to do in a game where I've never actually got to charge grom the paunch in a game. I've I've I've I've played a game where Otharion and grom the paunch feature, but my friend got a very lucky rock clubber hit on us Arian and killed him and I never got to do that. We'll, we'll, we'll mug thronged at boil at some point. Yeah. Yeah, like a Sunday game was all that. We'll mug from wheel and you can play Hoils. There you go.

Try again. Awesome. And then of course you've the last character not in the book though the last character, Prince Enrique, he was another stunning model, absolutely stunning. And his star Lance very expensive for being +3 to strength I think. Does he does he hit automatically? No, he doesn't. I don't think it hits automatically. That's the dragon blade Lance. So it's it's a fairly expensive because Lance is 2 points and is +2 to strength.

That that's fifth, though in Miracle, isn't he? He came up in fifth, no. No. Was he? Yeah, he was. He was in Fourth. He was. His rules are in Chronicles of War, but they were in White Dwarf. Right. He wasn't in the book, but he was in White Dwarf. He was released a model obviously designed after the book. Was that a It wasn't common, but did any other that you know add editions, official editions, but

not in the book? No, the closest you'd probably get would be Chaos Dwarf that were in the book that weren't in the list that was released in White Dwarf. Yeah. But actual additional characters, no. I think he's in fourth anyway. I'd about later editions, but in fourth he's the only one that was there was no wonder. I suppose you could argue White the white dwarf who was who was issue 200 literally the issue before they they released 5th edition, but he was fourth.

He wasn't. But yeah, they only two then I used to yeah, set 2 special characters, but not in the in the books, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if if we're going to bring in Imrich, that surely backs up my idea that High Elves have the best special characters out of the. I don't think he's a great special character. I think he's a lovely model. I don't think he's a great special character. I, I, I, I, I don't actually mean in terms of the rules.

I just mean in the aesthetics models, you know, as an all round. Thing I would never argue against that one, I'll never argue against that one. I think Scaven could have given the run for money if they'd been smaller, but special characters were too big. The models for Scaben. They just don't fit in with the rest of the Scaben at the time. Yeah, I really love the the Scaben special characters. They might, you know, borderline the, you know, a little bit silly in some cases.

Maybe I don't. Know I did. That's fair. Yeah. It was a funny idea. They were comic. Every single one of the Scaben characters is Comic Relief. Yeah. You know, the high off characters were kind of cages, were serious. There was no humor really in the high off farm. No, no, no. It was a serious army, yeah. And also that I suppose you had ogres and and and halflings for Empire, but they're, they're two armies. There's no silliness involved in those two armies really.

Whereas whereas skaving is all about silliness and. Yeah, and orcs have a fair bit of, you know, sort of sillings, yeah. Absolutely, but but no models wise aesthetic Yeah, no I agree with you that the high of. Pressure. Yeah, we give you that 10. Yeah. Thank you. They're right up there. I. Can't argue with that at all. Thank you for the points. Yeah, yeah. So I guess maybe we'll call that. Yeah, that's cool. Probably the day and. Thank you very much to both of

you. Yeah. Thank you a joy and look forward to look forward to the next one. There's also Golden next right? Yeah, October, everything got planned. Yeah, done. Makes sense. All right, Thanks for Tom. No worries. And. Cheers guys. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. Bye. Bye, bye, bye.