Warhammer Armies Dark Elves Deep Dive

All right, so welcome to this. I don't know which one in the number of recordings this one is. Is it a or something maybe? Something like that, yeah. Yeah, we're going through them and there's not too many left of this one, but we do a couple catching up. I think we're going to do the Chaos Dwarfs at some point. We will, yeah. Wood Elves will be next.

Then we've got Kells Dwarfs. Then I don't know whether it's going to be a combined White Book and Britannia or just Britannia and then a white, but I don't, I don't know. Not sure A. Few special ones. Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. And today we're joined by George Dunham. Quite happy to have him on because I think many of you might have seen his blended dark Elf army so much. Much of an inspiration for me. So George, welcome.

And I thought maybe you could start by talking a little bit about how you get into the hobby and the Dark elves in particular. Yeah, thanks a lot Mathias for the the kind introduction and the kind words about my work. That's I'm very happy to be here and here to contribute with some knowledge about about the dark airs. Excellent. And so when did you start? Did you start back in fourth or? It's in in fifths to be to be exact. It's like dark airs itself was a

bit late to the party. So it's, I've grown up in the West of Germany on, on the countryside, very far away from bigger cities. And so it, it took its time until Games Workshop appeared in this region.

So even I've so I I've came into a hobby with with few requests before, but when there was a longer break and when I I stumbled across a flyer, an advertisement flyer in in in a normal game store and I was fascinated by the miniatures and was already primed by hue Crest. So this force on very rude foreground and it's I've get the second flyer and yeah, it's how so often in in in in in my life and something interests me.

I did get it deep dive and I've looked and stared on these Flyers for hours and and one time in school people said, Oh yeah, that's warhammer, You should talk to Florian and and and Spen they play. Oh, OK, it's nice information and yes, excellent. And I and I get in contact with them. I ask and and then they I get from them the the 5th edition rule book and the peace cherry and that was the next I stared for hours and and already in the best year we bought about OK, what army I could.

I'm interested in what army I could imagine to play and and it's yeah, quickly reduced to to two armies. It was chaos and and dark elves and definitely, but I was impressed by both because of the dragon miniatures, which were really stunning centrepieces. And yeah, and my starring took for so many hours, but my family and my my girlfriend at at time point decided to yeah, give me with my my first talk of army. That was in Christmas 1998. Wow, excellent.

So yeah, it's been, has been Dark Elf ever since. So have you straight into other armies as well or? Straight straight into dark EFS. So it's it's, it's, it have started with dark EFS and it's since that it's really my my, my biggest love in Warhammer hobby. That's great. So did you get into painting straight away or was that eventually? There was because also there were not less people which with ability, which like that for playing. And it was also very busy time

with, with, with ending school. I was already yeah, concentrated on, on, on painting. And painting was always a big thing in my life. So it's also earlier. I painted a lot of things. Also I painted some build and paint some Star Wars kits. So always a big fan of * destroyers and. Yeah, I see something in the background there. Oh, great pieces. And yeah, so so so all started. Yep. So have you been active ever since? So have you had breaks during the?

Yeah, sure, at the beginning I really painted a lot and my my painting style was also a bit bit simpler. So it's I was able to paint more miniatures in, in, in shorter time spans and I painted very, very big dark Elf army of 4th 5th edition in the first few years in hobby. And then there was already the change to 6th edition and yeah, and it's it's with with better and better skills.

Also in converting and sculpting, I concentrate and concentrated more on on less miniatures also started for competition level. And during this time it was really reduced to a couple of miniatures each year. Yeah, and I think we see the result on the top of your cabinet as there is. It is a couple of golden demon. Yeah. Oh, they're. Oh my God, you're not seeing this. But I don't know how many it is. A dozen. At least there's. A lot it Yeah, it humbles. Yeah, I think we. It's not.

It's 1919 golden demons. Oh my God, yeah, it was. Yeah, IIA couple of years. I I realised that it's really it's it's it's a lot. So it's then if if you go only by number, I'm very I'm I'm in in in the top ranking lists. So it's but it's it's it's only numbers. So it's yeah, you can get a Slayer sort. But there's definitely a reason you have them. So yeah, it's great to see. I I never seen any in the flesh. So you have this really cool. So do you still have your big

army from back in the day? No. I I I sold it two years ago. Wow, OK. Yeah, also 2. So 1 1/2 year ago we decided to move. So we. We, we, our second child was on its way and it was clear that we have to change apartments so to have space for, for everyone. And also that, that I have my, my, my own space here as well. It makes necessary to move. And it was also clear that I have to reduce my hobby space. And so it was it it, it was, it was part of a deal to reduce a bit the cabinet space.

And it's yeah. And it also something which which influenced this decision was that I'm, I'm, I was, I was offered a very special piece. It's. You can see here. Yeah. That's a classic piece if you can just describe it for the listeners what it is. Yeah, it's it's what original Dave Gallagher artwork of his were in poison plate artwork. Yeah, it's and it's, it's a magnificent piece and also of Dark F history and yeah, I get a great chance and yeah.

And it was also, it was also part of a deal to do, to do to pay it without going to the savings. So it's yeah. Yeah, yeah, I understand. Perfect. So yeah. So for you who can't see it, we had a quick view of George Hobby Room and yeah, a lot of interesting stuff. Definitely. Right. So yeah, here we are today and you're still at it.

And if we maybe look a little bit back in time, Dave is our guy for the What happened before 4th I. I'm really glad you didn't say expert because certainly not one of those guy that that's I can handle that. That attack, that's good, I think I can do. Invitation with that one. And just about a year ago I actually got up my hand off like quite a few 3rd edition Dark Elf minis. So they're quite nice, quite

distinctive. On 4th edition, you don't really, it's very easy to recognise what what's what. So yeah. So what's your experience or impression of Dark Elf during 3rd edition? Dark Elves. There were two articles in White Dwarf that really made me love those models. I've been slowly building them up and I will be painting dark elf army very soon of that era. So 3rd and prior have a very different look to them than the 4th head Dark elves.

And there are two articles, like I said, one is, I don't know the the issue numbers off the top of my head, but one, it was a Marauder army deal that had loads of their lovely sculpts in and lots of cavalry as well. And that was a vision. You know, the, the Marauderama deals were great because they were painted miniatures they showed you and it wasn't the ones they used in nor their normal photos in Wolf.

They didn't really have studio armies at that point and such, but they weren't the ones using the normal photos. And it just, it was jaw-dropping. It was absolutely gorgeous. Very. Colourful. Yeah, and then there was also, I can't remember the the chap's name, but there was, there was a small 1000 point Dark Hill Farm in it's something like issue 144

or something like that. It's the one with the corn berserker on the front, the classic corn berserker used on used on at least one of the Warhammer albums. It's and and it's got this 1000 point Dark elf army and it's it's a lovely little army. It's it's phenomenally painted and just really cool. And I used to work out this a similar army. This is thirdly, it's a third edition army. I used to work out the list in

4th edition as well. And you could pretty much do it was pretty much points for points. It's not far off, same point as cost, almost literally the same points costs, but just a nice little force. And so that's where I'm going to begin. I'm going to paint that up. Do you have the minutes now or? I do, yeah. I've got, I've got them, just got to paint them. So hopefully that's going to be either tail end of this year, so sort of August onwards, or early

next year. So I'll do it so it can be used in both 4th edition and 3rd. It. Can be used. It'll probably be able to be used in 6th as well, which is the other edition I tend to play. You know, those are my 3 core U editions and pretty much the same models can be used. The only body contention might be Dark Riders, which seems to be in almost every edition of of of Warhammer. If you like the giant elf horse model, then you're OK with dark riders. If you don't, dark riders

difficult. But interestingly in the in the third lists for dark elves, you've got 2 choices of horse rider. You had two, you had two cold ground riders and two horse rider types. So the so if you remember we talked about before in the 3rd edition, you had plus elites. So plus 1 + 2 + 3 and all +4 and all those were additions to stats for each plus you got a different stat went up by 1 now, so +2 it had two combat had two

additions plus three had three. So the the cold one nights with the +3 and plus one shock elites. So so you had hell drakes and doom drakes. So hell, Drakes were the were the elite of the elite and doom drakes were the plus one elites and then your two levels of horse cavalry, Doomsdays and dark riders. Doomsdays +2 elites and dark riders plus one elite rather plus one. No, they're not. They're not elites. They're just bog standard dark. Oh, sorry. Yeah, plus ones with other cold

one nights. But both of them could have barding. So so you could have heavier sort of missile troops, although dark riders didn't have to missile troops. They came to stand with a hand weapon like armour and shield. And then you could give them barding, You could give them crossbows. You give them repeating crossbows or lances. So repeating crossbows weren't as standard for any dark elf troops. They were. They were an upgrade to their crossbow.

And with a lot of them you could give them crossbows or upgrade to repeating crossbows. And in actual fact, each of the cavalry types, all four of those didn't come with crossbows. We could give them crossbows or upgrade. To repeated crossbow. So. So they they could all be missile troops. All of them. OK, so could tailor. That weird for any cavalry, for any army, all of them could be missile troops. Not not high elves. I don't even would always get that as well.

So that's that's unique to dark elves. All of their cavalry could be missile troops. All right. Yeah. So George, do do you have an experience from the 3rd edition minutes? Have you painted any? Yes, sure. It's, it's, if you see this small tower here, it's it's, it's all future projects. OK. It it also contains a a a a big draw with Fred edition miniatures. And I also yeah, because I'm a great fan of work of Ellie and and Trish Morrison and me by Trish Karl.

I'm I'm I'm totally aware of the miniature range they created in in Fred edition. Yeah. And you talked the different choices dog writers and so on. They appear in later edition where the entrance that went away or is it basically the same stuff It's. Pretty much the shade the same. You had shadows instead of shades or dog with scouts. Yes they were called shadows in this edition but they were the scouts. You did have beast masters that had pack animals.

So there were you had beastmasters. They could either have war hounds, which were very sort of Bloodhound style, or they could have chaos hounds your your bog style. What you had to take was you had to take 20 crossbow men, 40 warriors, and at least 10 witch elves. And then there was a Dark of War altar, which kind of became the Cauldron of blood, I guess, in, in. Yeah, Yeah, I remember that one. Was it there were guys carrying it around and.

Yeah, absolutely. They were witch elves as well. So it kind of morphed into the Cauldron of Blood, really. And they're repeating crossbow, sorry, repeating bolt thrower. So there's not that much different really between this list and what came later, other than obviously the the 4th edition list having additional stuff to it. Yeah, and you have special characters and so on. No, no, no, no special characters.

And then you could have a you could have monstrous hosts, ethereal hosts, and chaotic hosts. Monstrous hosts. You could actually have. You could have units of cold ones on their own in the monstrous host, which is weird. Oh OK, without dryness so. Yeah, exactly. And also golden Warhounds, which I guess kind of alligator sort of things, I guess. And they could have they could have harpies, I believe.

Just give me a second. Yeah, they could could have a unit of harpies, but that that was in their chaotic host maximum of six. You only get 6 harpies. So it wasn't like racked up things and then allies. They were the so they they could have chaos allies, scathing allies, familiar or undead. No one saw goblin in there, but mercenaries they're allowed Nippon hobgoblins and ogres

those eastern. Yeah, well, I guess where Negroth is. It kind of almost makes sense I guess, but there was written into their background in 3rd. Not that it was massively extensive. There was a fair amount of crossover with. The Asian whammer yeah, and I think the aesthetics of the 3rd edition do have a bit of Eastern influence in it. I believe I'm. Not so, it's that that'd be an interesting 1 to pursue. Maybe is is like an Eastern I?

Have some I have some some some nice additions to that. It's that that beast master and beast concept, it was really thought at the beginning to take this into 4th edition where, yeah, maybe a bit more than only ideas. So this can clear. A couple of years ago then Mark Gibbons showed us some unreleased of Dark of Artworks 2

which didn't get in the book. One is his concept for assassins, which is very close to the Maroda assassins with that that snake like swords may have and yeah, without a cloak and more in yeah, in in skinny clothes. And the other one was an explicit beastmaster artwork created for for the book and it finally it was decided. But we did. We didn't as a Superbey the beastmaster choice made it into the book and so it was. It was never used, but it shows. The marauder beastman, the

beastmaster with his two horns. It's very very, very nice art. And they also fought a bit about develop this concept further, where there was also the idea of of, of smaller monsters with the dark F cuts sent into battle. And Trish created a small range of of monsters. So we all knew the hippogriff Marauder Hippocryph, which was released as a single monster was

also an unreleased chimera. It's also created around 1994 which was part of this set and a third one is an is a multi core which based on which used the Cowers hound which was made. Yeah. Yeah, I know which model it is quite small actually, but. Yeah, it's they are all. Three big yeah, it's kind of in between, isn't it? It's. Yeah, it's, it's so it's it's finally this, this one was this one ended as a, as a, as a chaos

hound. But I, I've, yeah, read that these were planned as, as beasts sent into into war by the dark Earths, but they finally didn't like the concept that you have. They are all winged monsters and it it doesn't make really sense to accompany them with some beastmasters and food. And finally we dropped the idea and yeah, only one miniature made the made it into release and one was changed And yeah, the the chimera is only seen by yeah, from time to time.

So it's I think also we're more Marauder War Hydra fits also into that. It's only one of the last mini issues which concept was was followed. Yeah. So did you get any insight? Well, these changes in direction, was that the reason why the book came out late? Did they have to sort of redo some of the ideas and? But it's yeah, I, I, I know that Ellie produced the first Dark F miniatures in 1993. So it's a it's a handful of miniatures.

He designed it the two the two metal sword men, some of the first miniatures he did. I think these were prototypes of stand in for the later plastic. The the plastic dark earth was also I think it was planned for the Talisman game. The the rules were later released in the in the white dwarf for it, but it it didn't never came as an official box.

And in in this regard he also did a couple of other miniatures but was a witch elf so did this one one which which stand out from the released miniatures with the cross swords highly detailed miniature compared to the others. It was also one of his pieces from 1993 and he also created 2 sorceresses which were unreleased and never saw the light of the day. But you, you have do you have all those minutes that? You yeah. So I can I can show them if you if you want.

Yeah, we can do that outside the recording, yeah. Also good for listeners. Yeah. And also the the first Spearman also based on the on these two sort men. So it's a bit unclear. So that's also why the the tabs can lie with the dates when they used for for conversions. It's not clear if it's from the same year or was it was it was it changed later? So, but it's, it's I also think that sorry, but I also think that the first Spearman were also some of of his miniatures.

And it's very interesting that you find all these miniatures, the sorcerers, the witchelf, the swordman and the Spearman on the cover from Dave Gallagher for the 4th edition book. So he used them as reference miniatures for creating the artwork. These are some of the 1st and it was also the the first artwork created from Des Henley was also for the for the for the sword man and Tishi also used this

miniature for reference. So that's that's that was the early beginning in 1993 and yeah, when there was some break, I don't know what what happened. So it's, I also know that in Jervis Johnson worked in parallel and Blood Bowl. So it's and, but and, and at the beginning it was also that that Rick was on the project. He handed it over to to Jarvis. It's yeah, it's I think to understand the workflows in the studio. It's yeah, it's competing

interests. So you're always with with 40K part which and you have limited resources and so, yeah. Yeah, they got stuck between somehow. Maybe so and it and I think they started a project when in 1994. So it's with also Mark Eben started doing producing the his artworks in in in mid to end in 1994, but here also without any reference miniatures. So illustrators in most cases use the the miniatures as a reference.

And when you take a closer look at Mark's very fantastic artworks, you see that they're based on the the 3rd edition miniatures, but were more raw miniatures. So the Dark F Commander and on on on Cold 1 based on the Fed edition code once his the the two unreleased pieces, it's very obvious that these are more raw Diminias.

But also the Scout, for example, is very close artwork to to a more raw Scouts. And he also said in personal communication with me that he had a lot of freedom and doing the dark elf artworks. So normally. So it it was typical in in in in the 90s that the projects start with John Blair doing a big one sided piece, putting putting everything in it. So it's it's also it's also one as a John Blanche had had such a piece in the book. So it's a big. Influence.

Yeah. And and this is where the centrepiece which everything is orientated on, on the data design. But I think this I I don't have a date of this artwork, but I think it was, was later. Mark had a lot of freedom doing his art and so he created some of the most stunning, you know, bohem art pieces. Moravi for example. Yeah, yeah, there's some great pieces. It's exceptional. So it's he also had think freedom for Malekif and yeah,

it's and yeah. And at at late in 1994, the first the first troopers come in and the the project really starts running. Yeah. So, yeah, excellent insights, very interesting. Some of I have heard, some I haven't. So great to be able that you've been able to share that. The Chronicle Man is proud to be sponsored by Scott at Black Arrow Minis. Scott has a range of second hand miniatures from several manufacturers which include Citadel, Grenadier, Ralpatha, Battletech and many more.

Collections that I enjoy pouring over are the old Perry Empire, Ally Morrison's Marauder Dwarves, and the old metal models for Epic Space Marine. So go take a look today and head over to Scott's website at www.blackarrowminis.com. Right. So we're back and we had some great insights in the sort of leading up to 4th edition. So that's really good to hear. And but then eventually the 4th edition book dropped and that was was it 95 or how was it? Would have been around that. Yeah.

It was June. Not one of the last few, wasn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. 19 June 1995. Yep. There's the expert. Yep, and I I'm still to actually own the physical books so I haven't been able to get it yet, but I certainly intend to. I guess you have it yours, of course. Yeah, sure. Yep. And do you have a take? I do have a physical book also there. There's a copy I've just found on script as well, so that's

handy. So I have the physical one, but also access to an electronic one as well and that's what I'm using right now to save me having to flick through pages. Yeah, that's the same for me. And first of all, did they release any, were they any different omnibooks? I know for example the Empire, they had like 1 version in 5th as well. Or was it just are they more than one version of the book? Basically, are they identical? Yeah, they they changed some of the pages in for the for the 5th

edition. So it's the the the 4th edition books always came with also with the catalog pages at the end. And these these were completely removed in 5th edition. Yeah, they had. Sample armies in the 5th. Yeah, they had sample armies and also the the EV metal sites were extended. They they removed the the the the you have the dark magic spell cards and the the items because we're also the the magic to the complete get get a complete overhaul and the free space we're filled with dark

cart miniature. So it's it's edition book also contains this this he and his dragon and also the boat for the sponsor Sean. Quite a quite a few changes. Then you should be able to recognise which edition you have quite easily. There might. There might be 3 versions then, because I've got 1 here. Yeah, this one has. Brought. The army page. The Army list pages.

Yeah. Not the catalog pages, but also has the magic item pages and so it's 3 versions and kind of there's there's the midpoint 1. Bit OK, bit hard to say for me because it's it's, it's my German version, but the German version from I think it's Uncle Elephant. Uncle Elephant it's it's copyright 1996 and it could also contain some of of of of a card stuff, but you can see here dragon and also boat floor so. Interesting. It's. It's has, yeah. It's really an upgrade overboard.

So did they do any actual changes in the rules? Because for example, the Empire, they snuck in a few things changes to, you know, if they did any of those actual stats changes or anything. I know I know from the by draft articles and and question and answer section that there were some rule changes for dark earths which also maybe were get

their way into the book. So it's I'm, I'm, I'm not very rude guy, but I think 11 of if I remember correctly, one of the points discussed there was the selection of both for us, which was related to troop types and and also the the number of both flowers you can take and maybe this was corrected. Yeah, Yeah. I think they they cost 50 points at some point the. The high off 1 was I don't think there were ever 50 points in the dark health book.

I seem to remember there was an errata in the dark health book. Was it an errata? It might have been an acknowledgement there was a difference in costs or it might have been saying that high we should now cost 100, but it was never until until they released the high off book in 5th 50. And my view of that is always they're getting cheaper because there are less they they get less benefits, as it were. I mean, I'm going to say it right now to get it out of the

way. I think darker book is a little bit cheesy compared to the high off book, although a lot of other people have the same view. Other people don't think so. There are certainly more benefits to their units than there are. Yeah. And I mean, we have talked a little bit about that previously that they they had the tendency as opposed to add special rules as time goes by, because initially the first books they

had are they any? And then over time there were more and more and there are quite a few ones in in darkness, I guess. So are there any army wide special rules they have hatred against? I am sore I. Think that's the only army wide special rule. And another one I've got an issue with that, you know, that's that's fine. That's fluffy and it is as we said, it's it's army wide. So it means that everyone has the same role. So so that to an extent, I don't mind that sort of thing.

And especially with darker, I've got an issue with it because it's, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got an issue with that at all. Anything there's anything else? Obviously there's there's this change to crossbows in this version of the dark health list where they go from having standard crossbows with repeat across as an option to upgrade to being repeat crossbows as standard. I guess in that's part of the drive to try and make armies unique. As you were, diversify them a bit.

Yeah, diversify them and mean they're different to another army that have crossbows. Could in 3rd edition could other armies have repeats of crossbows as well? Or was it always darker I. Think it's well, Warhammer in mind, Warhammer Armies was optional in third, Yeah, you could just build an army list with the rulebook. So you know, in that sense repeat crossbows could be had by

anyone. I think in the art list, I don't think there was anyone else that had repeated crossbows as an option, but it but it wasn't their standard armament. You're saying you you could choose to upgrade to it. So that's, you know, if I remember the rules correctly, you can either fire it as a normal crossbow or do repeated. So. So I guess in that sense, it's not that much of A variation, but it does make really quite deadly at, you know, being at, OK, there's the -1 to hit, but

the extra shot. Should make up. I think it should be worth it. Yeah. I haven't run the statistics, but I will assume it's certainly a benefit. Right. So if we get into the actual list back in the days usually you had like one option for a general and that was it. So. And I suppose the dog, if you know is the same stat wise as the other elf generals. I guess I haven't. Yeah, no difference.

No difference. He. Obviously gets the hatred and a wood elf one would get the -1 on a Longbow as well -1 to arm a save on a Longbow. So those two an additional thing there on the high elf one but but stats wise look exactly the same to me. Yeah, it's I can also extend with some information. It was from from from the mini Asia side. Ellie told me that the Dark Elf design was to create a evil side of a dark elf of of a High Elf. So it's it it it should mirror

at some point. So that's with the dark Efs of the evil mirror of, of the High Elves and much more with with this sharp and and yeah, pointy, pointy design. And it's and from from from from rule side or from the yeah, from, from from what general feeling of of of game of army

design. I get an interesting information from Jarvis some years ago, but he he really enjoyed the project and it it it was fun to work on and what he has in good memory was but he was interested to trying with make Dark Elves a combined arms force which along the lines of armies fielded by Alexander the Great and his successors. He isn't. He's not sure if he succeeded, but at at least it was his intention to do.

So. So it's, and this, it's also my feeling that the army has on, on, on, on one hand really some weaknesses, but you can compensate these weaknesses with your, your, if your army selection and in with your combinations and the, the, the strategy you, you, you have. So maybe he was a bit early with this, with this idea, because most of the focus in in in 4th, 5th edition was around the characters and and and and the heroes. And yeah, I think maybe the system didn't quite allow that,

but. The system doesn't. Yeah, it's but for example, in later editions I've I played successfully a list only with with with infantry troops. So also with I have a Temple of Kane army. I played without magic, without shooting, without cavalry. It's all all hand to hand infantry. And you, you get that you, you can, you get the playable. So the elements of the Dark Earth list are that strong that you can really create forces supporting each other and and

and and play with successful. And so I think he he succeeded, yeah. So he maybe he really was too early with this concept because the concept suffers because so much focus on the characters. Yeah, and I suppose most players didn't really catch up on that one, so maybe it was they. Really. You really have to agree on so so only one character and put your rest of your points into troops. Yeah, and I think you're doing

4th and 5th. That would have been a pretty brave and different approach to most armies that you saw and the sort of the meta of the game. But yeah, that's interesting. And yeah, it would have been cool to see an army like that. All right, so other characters what options do the Dark Elves have for? They've obviously got Witch of characters as well as normal Dark Elves.

And that's interesting because that gives you the ability to have a champion, let alone a hero in a unit that's frenzied with the frenzy ability. Because if you think with with one of the things that Bugbear had with Scaven was if you put a champion in a unit of plate monks, strictly speaking, he's not got frenzy. No, no. And it's the same with Empire flagellants, for example. Putting a champion there, it's going to be actually inferior to the troopers, basically. So yeah.

And or or a swordmaster champion hails who, who doesn't have the doesn't have the ability with his double handed weapon. So they they kind of covered that with a magic item in Chronicles of war eventually where you could have a high off magic sword. That was it was like 25 points. It was a double handed weapon that didn't make you strike last. So they kind of covered it with that, but there wasn't a champion with that ability.

Whereas in Dark, in Dark off book, I think they quite rightly give you that option of having a champion that is, you know, that can fit in with those units. Yeah. And I think, yeah, comparably with the Slayer champions or Slayer character choices, that's also exactly. Yeah, so specialist. Champions. I think that that which F hero is really the most cheesiest

selection of a book. So it's it's a good yeah, I I saw I I I I saw an an army list from I have I have have the name of the studio stuff in in in on my tongue. But it's maybe it appears later, but he armed it with with with hero. He armed it with a hellbeard and put it on a hydra. And what's an insane output of of damage? It's. So how many attacks does do they have the the heroes? Is it like 3 + 1 additional land France so it's 7 attacks or?

Well, it's 3 doubled, isn't it? So six, Yeah, whatever, whatever. Additional weapons. Yeah, if you give them just if. They're a hero. OK, Yeah. OK. SO66 basic attacks with friends, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then whatever else, I mean, you can obviously, because it's a hero, you can go mad. You can play leaping gold or or a Hydra sword. And then you. Yeah. Yeah, proportion of strength or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah. Potion strength or what's the

other one? The Amiot of Power that came out in in Chronicles of War that gives you addition to your strength. Yeah. So yeah, you could certainly go cheat, you know, very, very cheesy with that. But similar you could probably do with a plague priest, or they're not quite as good in combat as a witch health. A bit more resilient perhaps? Yeah, probably more. Yeah. Are they toughness 5 or 4? I don't normally use plague priests so yeah in that sense but but less weapon skill.

But they didn't have any miniatures for the dark. Which of characters did they? Did they really? Yeah, you can use that that that stand out which of I we talked earlier about it's but I I think this this one was quite used often as as a as a hero. The other one is there was also a which elf in the Talisman City expansion which was also from used from the studio as as a Champion Asia. Yeah. And right.

So then we had of course, magic uses and they, well, they had the basic choice, I guess, level 1 to 4, nothing special as such. And at that point, they still had male magic uses. At least they didn't. Only female. No, they didn't have that weird rule that they put in their only female sound that weird. It's very strange that one. Yeah, that was in there. And obviously because they were using dark Magic, they could put back dispels to get power or any card. Was it any card or dispels?

I can't remember one or the other, but but they could put cards back in the winds and Magic to try to get more cards. They they were more powerful in that sense. And I think they also had dealing preference as well. So if if there were any dark Magic users on the board, they we dealt first because strictly speaking, they were the only spells they could have. So a bit like Orton Goblins, when you got to your 10 spells, you would if you had any other Wizards. You were, you were.

Yeah, you were in struck. So in the law, were they the inventors of dark magic, or how was that described? No, I think they were just the ones that used it. I don't think they will e-mail. Oh, he's got a Citadel journal out. George has got a Citadel journal. Out, Yeah, in, in, in the in the meantime, I I found what I have looked for. It's it's the Citadel Journal issue 21. It's an excellent article by Thomas Perenin discussing the Dark Elf units and also the also some tactics.

And yes, it's what what I said about the which you have characters, all the advantages of regular characters plus frenzy and poison purposes. How can you possibly go wrong? Which of yours should be at the core of your hand to hand strategy? Remember that all the attacks have +1 to their strengths, so why not go for to give it them hell beards? Because we are not shut set at

BLD. When selecting magic items, give them something that further enhances the multiple attacks or raises the strength of their attacks. For the ultimate infantry killer mount which if hero on a war hydra and put it with put put with a unit of cavalry to give her protection from missiles. Just be sure that somebody else fights with challenges. If you include her in a Cold One regiment, consider giving her Ducks deed instead.

The steed's higher speed may give your opponent a nasty surprise if he could declare independent charges. Yeah. So I think brought a bit more competitive ideas to the yeah, because looking at a lot of the the early 4th edition better reports and so on, they I mean, competitiveness and so on wasn't really the prime thing about those. So yeah, so you can definitely

make some nasty even it's. When I, when I, when I talked about with him about the the tactic section he wrote in the in the journal, he said especially about that Hydra thing that he really regrets that they didn't go deeper into the Hydra, into this Hydra topic, that they didn't make more out of it at the time point he, he really would have enjoyed that. Yeah, yeah. And I guess at that point Hydra became sort of a special darker

thing. Pretty much any army could use it, but it was sort of dark of monster of choice. I suppose they. Had a special hydra. They they had the Hydra, but they had the war Hydra. Yeah. Yeah. Isonormal hydra also. Better from from rules from their stats. Right. So let's move on. Are there any other? Yeah, that's the assassin. Yeah, as in which for for Darkos obviously is a character. Now in 3rd assassins were characters. In the White Book Assassins were

troop types. Yeah, and how did it work with the Scaven? Were they? Scavenger troop types. Yeah, right. Yeah, but then for. Darkos. It goes back to being a character. Now my regular opponent, my my long-suffering brother has an issue with the Scraven assassin because he says it's unfair. They they can basically have two in each unit and they're a troop type choice. My counterpoint would be, yeah, a dock of assassins have to be a character of choice.

But they are a lot nasty because they can have magic items, you know, yes, OK, you can have a troop level weeping blade for a, for a Scraven assassin. They come with a standard, but that's it. They can't have anything else. Whereas dock of assassins Ouch. They can have a magic item on top of I think that do they have poisoned as standard. I think George or Doka for assassins in fourth. Do you know? Oh no, I don't know.

OK. I would I would guess they probably would do. That would make sense, but I guess the normal thing would be to keep them out with some nasty stuff. Yeah, well, I, I think it's probably given some like a black amulet or something like that. Or or or a heart of woe hell. Of the atomic bomb. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, but but but it's yeah, it's it's an interesting distinction between the two. You know, sceven assassins troop type, whereas dark of assassins

are are, you know, characters. So magic item or we there we go Have we got that? Yeah. Oh, I can't see your screen, Those two. Sorry, it's it's I can confirm poison attacks. Yeah, they get plus one to their strength and already so, so they're up to strength 5, which is, which is kind of nasty. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah. And he inflicts more wounds so especially. He's got that as well. The D3, yeah.

Yeah, it's AD 3. Oh, so even before medic items it's going to be pretty nasty and and just boost it further. Exactly. So yeah, doctors are seems nasty. Yep, definitely nasty, right? So I guess that's it for the characters? Or did we miss any? No, that comes all of them. Yep, right. So let's at least start with the chips, the bread and butter. Yeah, cold 1 Knights and dark

riders for your cavalry. So the slim down from the 3rd edition list, but I think that's what they were in the white in the white book list off top of my head. It was just like, you know, cold 1 Knights and heavier light stuck with it. Yeah. Yeah, and obviously Cold one. So the cold one cavalry is pretty iconic and and stupid so. Yeah, they are. Yes, we're the leadership of three as well, but luckily the cold one nights have have a better leadership.

I'm just having a quick check in the best story because I can't remember top my head, but I know balls not stupid, but they're -1 to lead ship. I don't know if that's minus to leadership for right. I think there was in 3rd, but I don't know if there's a minus to lead. No, there's no minus. To leadership. No it's just stupidity. So you should be OK with Liege probably led by a hero at least boosted to Liege 9.

So you you should be fine. And obviously you can take a magic banner for 10 points that negates the. Yeah, what's the point in that? Exactly. Well, it is. It's a 10 point banner that just negates stupidity. But there's no, there's no killy killy there. No. And yeah, So that's cool. Obviously you fail the leadership testimony. Exactly wrong. But but but banacos were reduced later so it's at the beginning. It was a 5050 pints points spanner. Oh, OK. Was. It Oh, OK. I thought it was 10.

I always lose 10. OK, 50. That's a lot of points for that. Yeah, but I think that's one one of the more boring items you can have, the one that sort of negate your negative stuff. I mean, that's the sort of part of the charm really, to have those special rules if you want them so. That's the point. I guess that's why they reduced the points value because no one was bothering to take it. Yeah, probably.

Yeah. And obviously with the leadership of three, it would have been a bad idea to have them on their own, like you said they could. Yeah, yeah, they, they probably wouldn't do much. So that's probably worse than trolls, actually. I think so, you know, that's, that's that's proper stupid. That's, of course. I always say that was a weird choice though. For the idea of what I suppose the the original Cold One models were a little bit more dopey looking, yeah. They were.

Kind of a lizard looking thing. Raptors of 4th edition just don't look like they'd suffer from stupidity. No, no, I mean. They, they just look like your killing machines, you know, prejudice. So I could understand more of a a blood greed kind of monitor sort of thing that once they've made a kill, they stick around to eat, to eat what's killed. That to me fits more with the Raptor look. Than and I don't remember, are

are they the only cavalry? Did Chaos have some that sort of had a monsters cavalry or in 4th edition? Or were there any others? Wood Elves obviously got the the war Hawks, but they were the only ones with monstrous cavalry. Yeah, they were. Obviously you could have things that moved as fast as cavalry, like your dragon. Quite as fast. Yeah, but, but. But monstrous cavalry less. Yeah, I suppose the demonic ones. Yeah, you. Yeah, could be, yeah.

Those would be monstrous cavalry, I guess, but, well, not really monstrous because they're, they're still cavalry sized, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Other beasts. They've got wolves and boars. They're not horses for for autumn goblins, but. Yeah, and the cold ones, I mean, they had two attacks, right? So they were. Oh yeah, they. Were. Straight 4 as well. Yeah, most times they kill more than their Knights on it, Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Especially in subsequent rounds

of combat. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. When when they've no longer when, when the Knights are down to strength 3, then then probably your cold ones are going to do the damage. So they're they're a bit more survivable than other forms of cavalry. Maybe in that sense, they're able to do more damage out. But yeah, yeah, I mean, they're characterful. They're like, it's it's it's a really cool idea, you know, elves riding lizards.

It's, you know, it's whatever kind of the, the only ones I would say probably weren't called with a 6th edition called ones that just looked like Diplodocus in Brontosauruses or something. Like that? Yeah, the that one. Yeah, they didn't look great. They probably. No, no, I don't take them, no. Yeah. The light is. Not so. Bad but but the the cold ones themselves Horrendous but. Yeah, I, I don't get that.

Yeah. I I prefer the earlier cold ones look, but I also love the Raptor ones as well. They're lovely. They're really nice models and and the and the general on the Raptor style cold 1 is just yeah, that's that's really cool. That's a cool model. True. So yeah, I I like them. I prefer the old one, but we we can always say that whenever we do on these books, they go I prefer the old. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the way you old Croc. Yeah, afraid so. Yeah. All right.

So yeah, good choice and distinctive. And then we have the dock riders, as you said, the light cavalry. The best light cavalry in the game. Yes they are, aren't they? Yes, as a high health player, yes they are, aren't they? No, I'm not bitter about the differences between between Elurine Rivas and and Dark Riders at all, in any way, shape or form. No. And I think where where we played back in the day.

So I think I mentioned that before we basically ignored light cabaret because heavy cabaret was much cooler. Of course, they had, they were nights. But as you said, from a, if you want to develop your tactics, I think light cavalry is definitely there. And they they were also included in the book as miniatures, but also miniatures never released, so it's ungutted. They were they were really nice models as well. I. Really. For the ones they did release in 5th.

Yeah, I was. Rumoured because they are a bit short of of of belly because the torso sits directly on the on the leg part. But that's I think all covered miniature suffering in in that edition. And I had also when I put together my my my regiment, I increased the high about two to three millimetres. So that way of year in the same same size range of the Cold War nights. And so they they look really

look really nicely. But yeah, they designed by Ellen Morrison in 1995 but were never released. I think they wanted them to. To make some changes. But then there was also the plastic horse on its way which was released with the wood Alfs and they didn't fit on on that. They didn't fit on that plastic horse and so they are decided to not release them and they get the second chance when Gary Morley made his designs for 5th edition. For and. I mean the.

You should campaign. Good models, but yeah, I also prefer the later ones. So I think the the ones released in fifth they they definitely have more of a 6th edition aesthetics to them. So I think they maybe don't fit with the older models too well. All right, So what makes them great in game? Everything about them. Yeah. Doing. With repeating crossbows, so it's put them early up in the game. So it's so to to to feel them outside your deployment zone. So it's it's may have so much

advantages. The expert rides and foreign flee so it's not like they don't get minuses. I think to move when they move and shoot and they can rally as soon they flee from a charge and can rally straight away. So there's no. Danger. You know, and and and all. Oh, and they can skirmish as well, which again, so so the the can't do any of that. No, they just have, you know, stats and no SPECIAL rules at all. So they're they're they're they're they are phenomenal. I mean they they go.

In fact, they can do double shot because they're repeating crossbow puts them above Glade riders, you know, from from the wood off book which came after. But they get the same rules except for obviously the Bay of a Longbow as opposed to A to a repeating crossbow. So yeah, yeah, they're just phenomenally good, especially for the points as well. They're just. I'm yet to paint them up, but maybe I should do that next try them out.

Once you've got them, I think you probably won't leave home without them as well if you're playing Dark Elves and they'll be the first first unit in your list. All right. Cool. Right. So I think that's it, vocabulary. And it was only two choices, right? Yeah, yeah. So, infantry, what's first and the list? Which else? Which else? Yes. We have talked a bit about them. So, so, so iconic. So it's, yeah, it's, it's one of of the less female regiments you have in Warhammer.

So it's having this and it's they are also very yeah, iconic site on the battlefield because let's you have them with your iconic hair and with a lot of skin. So you're they are very light. So you you see from from participants where really an eye catcher on each battlefield, often painted with very coloured hair. I actually have 20 on the my painting table right now and I still haven't decided if I should go, you know, fully crazy hair colours. So if I should do more white

with a few streaks of colour? Being being being frenzy to hand weapons. So it's they are they can be successful even in very small units. So it's I think in in the white fog better reports, they have units of eight mini issues. I think they they work very good in that in in that 4th, 5th edition set up where you have limited points for for troops because it's a 222 type which works very nicely with a small number of troopers.

Yeah, as long as they don't get too much shooting attention, I guess they Yeah, but. But but even if so, so it's when you you feed your opponent with a lot of possible targets for his shooting. So you have hobbies. You have which you have the dark riders. It's yeah. Also the boat for us, Yeah, took took your choice. You can't shoot them all. Something you you maybe you can a bit decide what what hits you. Yep, that's true, and they can't be ignored.

Basically, if they get into contact it's going to hurt, so the opponent has to. Really really hurts. Yes, and especially if you support them with some champion if also have some matching item. Yep. And as I said, very, very distinctive. I think if you had any contact with warmer fantasy, you will know what wood shops are and how they look basically, right? So yeah, good choice. And I guess sort of a must have, or at least probably should have.

Well, yeah, I mean for me, if I'm doing my usual, oh, I follow Warhammer armies from 3rd edition and when I pick my armies in 4th edition then yeah, I've got to have at least a unit of 10. I wouldn't actually stick so rigidly to it. But I think, yeah, they are definitely an iconically dark health unit. And if you're not taking them, then you know you're not necessarily getting into the flavour of what Dark Elves are. Again, I'll be, I'll be using Marauder models actually.

No, they're both Marauder actually. Sorry. I'm using earlier Marauder models for mine. Is that the smaller ones? They're quite short. Yeah, without, without the, I mean, big weapons, yes, but not the huge weapons of the 4th edition ones, and not quite as much hair. No, I actually mixed in some of those in the the unit I'm building now and I think it looks like it could work. I mean they stand out a bit, but it's not like a sore thumb.

So I think if you work with the colour scheme it can work. With a, with a consistent paint job, you'll probably mask a lot of that anyway. You know, they'll, they'll blend in more. So I think there's there's a lot to be said for consistent paint jobs to blend different edition models together, as long as it's not outrageously different. Yeah. I mean, for example mixing the very different cold, yeah, cold ones might be a bit. Yeah, that would. Stand out like a small thumb.

Yeah, absolutely. But maybe the witch elder you get away with it, you know, especially if maybe you don't put you know, you, you keep the front rank to being whichever. Yeah, and. Then mix the rest in in in subsequent ranks and yeah, you probably get away with it. All right, so we're back and we handled the the witch else. So what more do we have in infantry? More of the standard troops I guess, Left. Can I just say I didn't handle any witch else Well, we've got

executioners and dark guards. Sorry Black Guard even sorry. So I guess executioners, George over to you because you've got a unit of these bad boys that. Very few people have not. I actually have one as well. No, All right, OK. I got mine really years ago. Yeah, before before eBay. They have also marketplace called butter town.

It was in in it's around the 2000s and where I'm yeah, met a guy who was on game state Baltimore and he had two of a hydra and 40 of the executioners and and he decided to keep one of the hydras, but semi 1 semi, just one hydra and and yes, this 40 execution is. Oh, you have 40? Yeah, I have 10. So. It's yeah, it's, it's I've, I've, I've sold 10 when, when I sold my just this my first Army. But but it's, it's yes, my, my, my unit's still 32%. That's the solid unit, yeah.

And I think they are quite, quite a good choice compared to Black Guards, for example. They are really solid, especially if you face something with multiple wounds. I guess they're quite good, so yeah. Again, it's it's the mirror image, the white line, and they're just. Better. Better. It's frustratingly so.

You know they get heavy armour and D3 wounds, you know white line now until you get to 3rd edition, whether sorry 5th edition where they went silly with it and gave Maiden into basically white lines into war dancers. But there we go, There you go, execution as the mirror image to the high of 1 and again, so much better.

As a we are really nice unit, we attract a lot of shooting because you your opponent definitely did not want this within your ranks because the damage is really outstanding. So it's it's it's also one of these units you can pick as a as a shooting attractor. So it's it really depends on on on how the rest of your army looks. So it's it's it's can work in a small unit, but you need a lot of over troops you're which also attract shootings.

So it's if it's else. For example, if if you definitely want them to to reach your opponent, you need to play a bigger unit. Yeah. So I mean, my tennis isn't really any good. I need to I need to up the unit a bit. Yours is a supporting unit. George is more of a frontline unit by the. Yeah, I don't expect to get anymore, so we'll see how that works. But they. Are they are very as if if you want for original 4th edition ones they are very expensive.

Meanwhile, think it's £30 per miniature. And there are. The market is full of recast. Yeah, yeah, that's neat. And yeah, then very nice. I think a lot of people use the Black Guard S Executionist, the Black Guard minis and yeah, so we'll maybe move on to the Black Guard is that I think those miniatures are very nice compared to we talked about Code One Nights. Might be a bit of a work to actually paint. I think the Black Guards painted very nicely.

I think that was a pleasure to paint for some reason. Really enjoyed that one and. A few units that that doesn't surpass the high off version. They're they're the same as the more bland. Yeah, they have hatred, OK, so they have that. But but aside from that, you know, stats wise, rules wise, I think they're pretty much the same as a Phoenix Guard. You know if it's like 14 points, most 15, but you can give them heavy armour and they're 15 as

well, so they're about the same. It's a nice example of this mirror thing. So it's the the the evil mirror of of the Phoenix car. Yeah, but nothing special rules wise. Basically, you know, sort of kind of have a camera infantry. Sorry. Yeah, pretty much. I'm just quickly checking. There's no special rule. I've gone and said that and we're going to go, Oh yeah, they don't have that. I don't know. I don't think they have any. No, I don't. Think, I don't think they've

even got an entry. I don't think they just, they just dark health warriors in effect. Well, elite dark health warriors with Albert's, yeah. OK, cool, cool. Not too much to say you've. Got cross by men warriors and dark elk city garden. Dark Elk City Guard are interesting because the concept of the split unit are you having Spearman and a missile troop in front of them in the same unit comes from well, obviously history, but from a Warhammer perspective, higher always had a

unit that could do that. In 3rd edition Merchant come that were Spears or Howard's behind Bowman and that disappeared, obviously, in the in the high off book in the in the white book. And yet dark elf gained one of that, which is yeah, kind of kind of a bit strange, but I would think they're probably the ultimate defensive unit. OK, OK, high offs had Lothian sea guard, which were equipped with both spear and mist weapon, but this is slightly different.

So they're cheaper crucial because your front rank has the crossbows and then after that you've got the Spears. So probably quite a very good defensive unit. I'd thought, I haven't played with them, I don't know, but they they seem on paper like a really good defensive unit, you know, because he's they can fight in both ranks in close combat. So. Yeah, and modus wise where they the variously normal warriors

that. You just, yeah, you just spear men and and crossbow men in a combined unit, I think. So they never released any special? No, no, no, they didn't. Right. So yeah, but as you said, an interesting show. I actually didn't even remember they were there until you said it. So. But that's true. They they had only just very short appearance. So it's in in 6th edition gave 4 didn't like the concept because he said it's the the dark AFS

are pirates and marauders. They don't fight their battles on their own ground or less on their own grounds. So it's no need for the concept of city guards. So use your your your your troops guarding the cities. So it's and why take them far away into battle? So it's he dropped the concept completely and it disappeared. Was it in the? Was it in the kind of in all the six edition books they had additional army lists? There was a specialist which. Yeah.

They played a bit around with the concept, but it's. It's yeah, it's. Kind of your opponent has to agree to it sort of thing, isn't it? It's not. It's not as standard. Right. And then you have the of course the basic warriors, you could have sword, a shield of spear, and. That's also very interesting that the the 4th edition has the the classic warrior, which is also something the highest did not have personal counterpart.

So maybe a bit the the the shadow warriors, but they are already especially in other ways. And then in in later editions, the Warriors also disappeared to reappear into the 8th edition. Yeah, they did. I mean, I think the high off book had warriors a separate. Yeah, they did. They had warriors a separate option, but there were no models released in fourth for them. They did have warriors as a separate option to Spearman.

So they're mirroring high off book in that sense because obviously bear in mind, you know, hope it was one of the early books. So you're High Elves back then there were quite a lot of elf models. They weren't necessarily High elves. There was no distinction in High Elf and would have really in models that much. There were some that definitely were one or the other, but generally speaking, it's kind of it blurred the lines. A lot of those were hand weapon arms. So if.

You're. Using your old high elf army then you'd have probably wanted to still have warriors and and certainly if you're using the pre 4th edition dark elves then Spears. Really rare model for dark elves to have. So most of them were just armed with, well actually a lot of them were armed with hand weapon, shield and crossbow on their back.

So. Yeah, so I guess that's why they included the dark Elf warriors still and obviously as there was the plastic, as you said, the plastic my post that had a sword and if you're lucky then the metal ones. I've got 1 knocking around somewhere. Are those I don't know how Manchuka? I think it was in the eBay lot. It just happened to be in there. As opposed to what? If if you have a metal once, be happy. It's yeah. OK. We are quite quite expensive.

It's nearly the same range like executed. And that was just in a lot. I didn't buy it for that model. It was just kind of in amongst stuff that I bought. It was somebody in there. Yeah, quite, quite. Yeah, kind of like the. Monopoles. I think they. Are quite all right actually, when you paint them up, I mean, and it's 2 versions, so it's the

metal versions, so it's you have. 2 versions, 2 were merged into each other just for creating the plastic 1, so it's the metal ones are quite nice, yeah. It's hard to. Rank up. But if you you put them a bit, yeah, I put my 1. So yeah, to put. Them sort of different places on the the basis it works, but needs a bit planning all right so. And then the.

Crossbows, of course. We talked about the repeated crossbows as Dutch, and I guess they're not Nothing special about them apart from actually having crossbows. So can put out quite a lot of bolts, so with a. Decent rate, yeah, with a. Decent ballistic. Skill obviously at -1 for the repeater, but they're, you know, the ballistic skill of four initially should compensate enough for that that you're still fit. You're hitting, you know, 50% but twice.

So you should get more shots hit actually than normal high off unit of Bowman. So yeah, it's. Yeah, I'm, I'm going. To I'm going to stop being bitter. Yeah, and also. As I said, pretty iconic for dockets, so defensive unit, but you probably see them in quite a few lists. All right, so is that it for two choices? Then you've got scouts. Scouts. Yeah, of. Course, but no models. In the fall? Not for scouts. Well, of course it's not for scouts, but scouts.

Somehow managed to get bliss skill of five. I'm not sure how that how that works. And they're they're really very good shots. So how do they compare to Shadow Warriors? They are. They're units. Take a guess. They're not. You know Shadow Warriors aren't. As good it's, you know, scouts are better, they got the hate. Although to be fair, shadow warriors do hate dark elves, so at least you've got that. But yeah, no, they, they have their repeating crossbow and

bliss is skill of five. So there is no competition. Shadow warriors are bliss is skill four and then you have a boat. So they're getting two shots at least it's skill of five. Yeah, what's what's what it's going to be very messy the the outcome of of them shooting anyone. So they're very good, obviously. And they can skirt and have the scout special rule as well. Whereas whereas shadow warriors don't have they, they, they can scourge where they don't have the scout special rule.

So you know they, they are far superior to shadow in every way shape or form. There is no contest. They are on a par with wood elf scouts. Although obviously wood elf scouts only have a bow, but there is an extra -1 to save. So you could make an argument for them being roughly about the same. But yeah, far. Superior to Shadow Warriors.

Both of them and it's the only. Regiment which never get really miniatures designed in the 4th edition there was really no no attempt to design miniatures yeah yeah don't know the reason why we did put. From 1 of this. So it's, I know that the, the Army books were often written in in, yeah, in advance before the miniature design starts. So Jervis said, which tried to cover what might be possible and. When? We we see what could be realised, but yeah, there was,

there was. I think it was already in the. 5th Edition. Where Shane Hoyle did a regiment of of scouts which was never released. But from from quality side, it looks more or like some, some some test designs. So the weapon design is very small. And so we did not fit the range nicely. Well, it's it's also got very

one that. Thinking was linear in a sense for they're coming from position of already having models for a lot of these things in, you know, in the back catalog, yet quite hit that every time you release line, but you have to redo every single unit. That mentality hadn't hit yet. So if you look at you know, the well, the empire book and hive books are slightly different because they did overhauls of the entire ranges with Empire. It was, you know, it was a

flagship for the release. You know, they redid the empire book, You know, sorry, the empire range for that Hiles. They weren't really great high off models beforehand. Yes, yes, Jess did some brilliant elf models that they elfs those have touched on before. They're elves. They're not high olds as such.

They redid them when you get into the Orkin Goblin book, they redid some of the lists and some of the new entries got models, but a lot of the other ones you just use what they already had. So all boys didn't get any new models. You could easily just use all Cara boys and all crossbow boys were, you know, all Cara boys with crossbows. They used the old ones, the dwarfs. They pulled most of the dwarf range during fourth was a third edition range with a few extra bits.

So the concept of an entire overhaul of the entire range, it wasn't It wasn't really there yet. So I guess because it was, there were models you could use as scouts. OK, they didn't really fit brilliantly. They they didn't look completely out of place. They didn't fit brilliantly. And that's that's kind of why maybe because they weren't in that place of rejoining every single model. There weren't until the 6th edition, I guess that hit exactly. Yeah, there.

Were no Corsairs, they had to do models of those. There were no black card. They had to do models of those and they did the Spearman and crossman because that's, you know, bog standard thing to do, you know, so not to do some items for the for the list was it wasn't really in their concept that that in their mind that they should have a model for every single item on the list. Yeah. You either used the previous one

or you converted something. Yeah. And of course there was scout models from. That you had to use then I don't have any, but I'm on the lookout. So if you are you doing any, why are we doing some of those? So, right, so and then. Courses. We mentioned them. Briefly also pretty nice models I think. Yeah, very chronic as a way they they became. A flagship for later editions, especially because.

The the. Lead of Gay Forbes, who really put this pirate theme into into the centre of of of dark Elf theme. Yeah, it's in in in 4th edition. They are equipped with two hand weapons. And I have. Iconic sea dragon cloaks. So it's it it started that quite simple, yeah. No special rules so. Is there otherwise, apart from the cloak, yeah, I think that there's going to be a sea dragon

cloak. So again, if you were to take a view of getting better, again, if you had to take view of, you know, like the white line cloak versus the sea dragon cloak, there's no benefits to a white line click. It's just a cool model. It's so the, you know the. Again, it's building in something. On top of the basics. So it's just part of what feeds into my view. You know, the the the dark off and the and the wood off a little bit Opie, But that's just my view. No, no, I think that's

definitely. Fair, because as you say, they they mirror them mostly and then they add something that's I think you see here nicely. What, what, What? Chervis said. But he wants 2 which interact with each other. So it's a you have, you have that if a repeating crossbow you have a shooting, but only with 24 inches. So it's you definitely have to move on the battlefield with your shooters.

And also if you start moving on on the battlefield, you also need to to to to use some protection and the causes are very fine units to take the line of sight and to to take the shooting while rest of your troops start marching over the battlefield. The other The other thing I'm nice about darkness is. They get a lot, a lot doing for lots the right word, but more units can have magic banners

than high off unit. So you get your obviously you've got maybe not, maybe not my my I suppose if you they've got Phoenix guards got dark. OK, maybe not. Maybe it's about the same. Yeah, Because. No, because their basic standard troops. Can't have magic, OK? I was thinking that they're warriors, could have magic bands. They can't. So no, they they don't. I'll take that one back. Oh, OK, Yeah, I'll be fair. But they. Also get harm. They do, but they. Obviously they do get harpies as

well. Only one unit. Can only have one unit of them in Dark Air Force, whereas in Chaos you can have as many as you want, but darkies only have one unit of them. But they are there as well in in the infantry, not in the monsters section. So they they it's been rank and filed so that that's you know quite handy for dark. I was that they can take them in rather than being a monster option there. Yeah and solid choice as. Long as they. Oh yeah, right away. No. Good. Yeah.

No leadership. But two attack. I don't know. I don't really want to attack I thought. They had two attacks or is that later editions? I get 2 attacks, OK. I always thought half. He's had two attacks, OK. Only one attacked. Them but weapons skill 4 though, which is quite good. Two wounds toughening yeah. So they're basically flying beast, yeah. Pretty much, yeah. Pretty survivable and of course

you can rank them up as well. So you get if you've got enough models, then you get rank bonus on or you know, drop down from the skies. We need rank bonus. That's that's nasty. Yeah, they're definitely able to handle. The war machine, that's for sure. I can handle that. I can't have a banner but. You know they're they're a. Light. Infantry they could take out as well quite easily, you know, as long as they're light in by. Light. I mean, you know.

We're talking about units of 10. You know, a unit of 12 to 15 harpies could easily take out a unit of unit of 10 infantry. So they are nasty harpies. They're really good. Really good choice. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts? On. Harpies in particular, George. Yeah, it's I really. Like the miniatures from? Trish, it's it's. Because. It's also something which makes the dark elves but special to have these fielding these beasts

on the on on the battlefield. And in fourth editions it's boss more they had more this beast like character compared to later editions. I know they are sort of a divider. Because I know some people. Don't like them, the 4th edition Harpies, but I didn't take more time. Yeah, nice, but very different. To what came. Before and what came after. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think you really. Have to differentiate between that.

Because the the later the 6th edition harpies with we have a very female yeah, they are more related to Greek mythology and so we get the different spin. So it's yeah, yeah, definitely. I think most of the voices which said odd it's 4th edition happy suck. It's because they they come from from year later editions when things have already changed. I think 4th edition itself, it was people were happy with it. Yeah, the. Three more. Gargoyles. Yeah, three, 5th edition as

sorry, 4th edition. As well 5th and. 4th and 5th as well. So there was obviously the classic Margaret Thatcher. Yeah, Reagan, Reagan, Harpies that came. Before as well. So yeah, more humanoid, definitely. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, you, you certainly wouldn't say. That the Margaret Thatcher one was, you know, on a par with the 6th edition in the in the Noody Loody. Kind of sense.

That the the Mike that one was not was not slanishy in any other shape of you can you can make an argument that you know, there was a slanish connection for the harpies of 6th edition, you know, being a bit, but certainly not the the 4th ish ones and not Reagan and and Thatcher from before. No, but yeah, they are. They are definitely very. Different. Looking models, yeah. OK, so I think that was it for troops. Yeah, maybe we can just go into monsters.

I don't know with this where we talked about the war Hydra, are there any other choices that sticks out compared to other armies? So do they have the full complement standard? Yeah, well, it's dot Pegasus. They got the dot Pegasus. But that is literally I think there's there's no I think it's literally just a dark version of the no pigs. I don't I don't think it has any special rules. I don't. OK, so they just put dark before it's. Deeper paint that a quick check. I'll have a quick.

Check while you talk. Amongst yourselves. Yeah. And of course, at that time. Most armies could have most different kinds of monsters, so yeah, that was and using the unridden. Monsters. I don't think that. Was a very popular show. It's I think it's kind of cool to be able to do it. I don't think it was. Of course you had the the danger of them running off. That was, I guess the the problem with the unrated ones. Did you use some George or was that always?

It's a I'm a I'm a big fan of the chimeras. Yep. So it's there was also. An. In in 4th edition, an unreleased version, I think the the unridden. Monsters. Of yeah, monsters in general suffered a bit in 4th edition by the problem of the point of sales, because it's you. They are too big for a blister pack, so you just need to put them in the box. And if you think about the releases, the release box types

in fourth. In 5th edition, all monsters were mounted so and and chimera's suffered the chimera problem. Where that's the right acid? So so. It, it's, it's very difficult to to, to release this, this kind of monster because it's, it, it's yeah, you really struggle to transfer it into a mounted option. And I think the, the war Hydra suffered a bit the same. Yeah. But we, we, we tried to overcome this with the war Hydra 'cause we planned to put the the sorcerer on it. And it's. It's it's.

I think the biggest unrealist model I'm aware of, it's, it's, it's very it's, it's a fantastic piece of art from, from, from Trish and from Ellie, the unreleased source of a Lord writing. About Hydra. But yeah, I'm also suffered by it was never released. It's yeah, it's the same. So it's but but. But this this was. Really a piece which had everything you need to put in the box to to make it really a

box model. So it's you have, you have, you have a beast, you have the rider, you have also the the the giant banner poles with you can design the banners for him. So it's there were really chances that they're good.

To make. This in one of our iconic box models of 4th edition but it was never released so and it just was I think yeah and Chimera's suffered yeah but from another point of view because we we never get a right a right for it and so this section is a bit limited to to the beasts which were released as mounted sets yeah that's true there were for

some of the. 3rd Edition. Yeah, shows that you can do usually pretty small, not much bigger than a horse, some of them, but yeah, they they are available and I like them. So I'm trying to get this man a second I've for my wool hydro. I've picked up the. Round Panther? Well, Hydra. Lovely model really. Really nice model. I'll be using that one in my. I think it's real. Is it real Palther? Yeah, it's real palther. Gorgeous.

Very Serpentine heads. It's got some of even have got like the the cobra hood coming out that's slightly different. It's it's an amazing. Model. It's lovely. You know, and and also again harking back to 3rd edition and prior, you know, the yes, OK, Brian answer would have wanted you to use Citadel miniatures because it was his business. But it did say in the books previously, you know, there are other manufacturers out there. They wouldn't do that now, obviously, and they didn't in

the 3rd edition. There's even. Mention of, you know. Other manufacturers, not necessarily naming them, but saying, you know, all sorts of manufacturers out there. And it was that practice, you know, at that time because games workshops weren't everywhere and mail order was a thing, but the Internet wasn't. So you just use whatever models you could, so you know, whether they were Games Workshop or not, use them.

So in that sense, because my Army is going to be kind of straddling 3rd and 4th, I think using that War Hydra kind of fits in with that ethic of, you know, that that mindset of, you know, you use what you can source. So I'm happy to understand it's it's a fantastic model. I can't wait to get it painted. It's yeah, definitely worthwhile owning and going to be a centrepiece to the Army for sure. Yeah. Will there be a lot of painting? I I go.

Down. The glue and baking soda root to make it a more solid connection to pinning. I I can never get pins to line up properly. No that's my issue as well. I'm I'm having the. It's I think it's it's 66 addition hydra and it's just so much pinning. I'm not looking forward to it and I have the same issue. They usually don't align 100% and looks like it's and even if I even if I can't do that whole a. Lot of paint on the end of the pin, still doesn't allow by the time I'm done.

It's in the wrong. Place and then it doesn't. You're not with a kink in the pin or something like that. It doesn't work. I go down the baking. Soda and and super glue root and try to make a solid bond that way and use it to fill in gaps as well. Like with the textured skin of the hydra. I think it's going to pretty much mask the bobbly super glue effect you end up with after using the you get away with it and soda, yeah. Absolutely.

So that's that's my. Plan anyway and we'll see I'll once I've painted it, I said that hopefully doing it at the end of this year, if not starting next year, I'll post it up. You guys can make your comment whether it works or not, don't know we'll see. Cool. One thing you did skip, actually. We we skipped war machines, don't there's a lot to we've already done. But George. What about Cauldron of Blood then? I think you've. Seen you've got one of those painted up a cauldron of blood.

Or do I make that? Am I wrong there? No, it's, it's it's it's, it's one of the. Things I still have on my to do to do this. Oh, OK. What do you think? To it though, that's I'm I'm I'm. Really addicted to what? A whole cane topic.

So it's it it it it comes later, it's in in so in in 6th edition I, I get addicted to wet first was it it was doing the storm of chaos thing and he have a pleasure culture risers and I I started in team slanish because I forked OK all all this, this this cane stuff was quite boring and. Switched later with laughter Hellebrand and my my 6th edition army is completely yeah, dedicated to Kane.

So it's and, but I always struggled to really set up really good, yeah, miniatures for the for the, for the cutover of blood. I I really like the, the design of the 4th edition. It's quite simple. I dislike it from the 6th edition. The the stationary thing, which doesn't work well for me.

And it took a long time until September developed that, yeah, mythical war machine that we know today for the 8th edition, which where he, he really was able to bring everything together, making this an iconic, really iconic model, which really took a lot. Of. Design elements from the 4th edition 1. So it's I think Ellie did a great job there designing the the, the the details and the miniatures in time. And it was. It was a bit.

Late to the party, so it doesn't hit the the the main release. I think it was White Dwarf 209. It was released alongside the new High Elf released in in 5th edition when it makes it its appearance. Yep, still to. Find that minute that would be nice So in in the game, I mean we said that dock and so our which also pretty nice yes, they are. So how much better do they get from? I'm not I'm not aware of the 4th

edition rules. So because having played, having this, this cane list with two catrons, I played in the, in the in, in in the later editions, that was really nasty because it offers a lot of protection and additional damage output to your troops. So it's yeah, two curtains, 1 is a general and 1 is a better standard bureaus, different, different banner of margaritas. So it's that's was really was was was was really fun to play and. Yeah, but. Yeah, not aware of for for the

different rules. Maybe Dave has a bit more into it. Let's have a look. I've not used 1 so. Shooting is between cauldron keeper. OK, so one would be hitting the keeper of the cauldron. So that's the character I'm guessing two to three, the guardians 4 to 6 the cauldron. So it's got a fair, you know, fair, fair bit of protection there from shooting. OK, so we're back on this, the debut, the. Short break to check out the Cauldron of Blood. So which?

Shows we had 18 inches of the cauldron of blood. First round of combat Triple their attacks, Double triple their attacks We we remember that we. Remember that which of euro we've helped yield on of riding war hyper triple their attacks. That's that's just that's. Nasty. Does it say it's just the troops that does it or would the? Heroes as well. It's just a witch. Else. Yeah, yeah. Or which else? And I, I will quantify that I'll actually put put a value on that

why that is the case. Because then the second rule is that if a witch health is slain within 18 inches of the cauldron of blood, they get a special 6 plus savings which of characters survived with one wound remaining. So it's confined that these rules cover. Characters. As well. Yeah. So how, how was it in 4th edition? Was it? Kept 10 attacks or ten were statistics or could it go above

the 10 statistics were? But. Then again, you couldn't have a Dark Elf general, so therefore the attacks would only go up to 9 because there was 3 attacks tripled and then any additional weapons or additional weapons, yeah. So 9 would have been the maximum that they could get out of that. OK, Yep. Plus, you know you plus. Look because the rest on stats.

If you say, I mean if you have a magic weapon, additional hand weapon, that's on top of yeah, so it could get to roll more than 9 attacks or. More attacks exactly, but your stat line in effect would don't generate. Up to 9 at maximum if you that's a bit weak, but OK. Yeah. Oh yeah, that's. Terrible. Useless. Yes, 9 attacks. That's awful, Yeah. That's the main thing, but. There is one slight downside OK, and that is when they charge into combat.

With a cauldron. Of blood, it doesn't give impact hits. Oh, OK, yeah, that's horrible. You. Don't get the D6D6 plus 2O, that's awful. Yeah, that's that's the only downside is you don't. Receive that, Yeah, I think we can live with that. Yeah, right. So yeah, that's the rather short list of war machines. That's boat floor, boat floor, boat floor. Yeah, yeah, we did talked a bit about. That before so that you. Want to? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's.

I think also very very important unit you see in every. Dark Elf army. And yeah, well, in most, most cases, two of them and I think also one of the most common war machines use. So it's. Yeah, pretty. Solid. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Of course you don't. Need to have any skills? In guest ranging or about basically skills to know that you're in range maybe. But apart from that, it's just go on and shoot and see things die. The bane of Cabrio, of course. Plus you don't have any save,

right? So is that for the single bolt or is it No both on the single bolt, Yeah, well, no safe. And. One of the few. Things where the hiles definitely win that argument on the on the on the repeater bolt there's no limit on on them in obviously you've got the maximum you can take in a 25% Yeah, exactly. You've got that, but aside.

From that though. You know, there's with the darker, I don't know if you see the edition that I've got that causes this, but where I'm looking at this rule book here, it's saying one per 10 darker of Warriors, Spearman, Crossman, City Guard or Blackout Corsairs. Is that the same in my actual book? Let's have a quick look. Yeah, that was also some of the changes we made in the later editions. At the beginning it was only Corsairs and I think Warriors. Oh OK, so they widened the shows

you have? To have. Corsairs. You don't have. One, you know, for each. For each regiment of of 10 or more dark Earth warriors or plague Earth courses, and this was changed and it was also for 50 points. I was 50 points then as well. OK. At the early beginning, yeah. OK, so so they they.

They they're on a. Par then with the high elves in that sense, but they are obviously restricted to, you know, down to the troop types taking the repeater, whereas with the high elves, that's my memory shaky. Let's just check on that one and obviously. At. At 50 points, they're an absolute. Steal and at yeah points they're still useful. So I think that's not not a bad change to make them hundred points, 50 watts. Yeah, they're they're they're a great piece of kit.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. They're fantastic. Yep. Always. You know, you pretty much always have something to. Shoot. So get most of it and of course 48 inches of range, it's not really very limited. You can hit lost all right, so. Special characters. Witch King. Yeah, Witch King. Start there Witch king. He's daddy of all darker.

Well, not literally there might be, but yeah, the, you know, male kiss a nice a nice touch they put in with the back story of the when they started developing the high elves and just yeah, a great image. Shame, shame it never got the actual model released in fourth because that that piece of artwork is phenomenal. It's, it's I, I know from from Ellen Merritt that he had at. At least at at the principal chariot design in his drawer of of of unreleased stuff.

But it never got finished. And it's yeah, Malik could never get. Dominiation. So you don't actually have that miniature, do you? Concept miniature. So I would, I would. Really be interested. In in. In how that how even the basic design look, because it's yeah, it is. I'm thank God for being blessed with some sculpting skills and definitely love to copy it and and finish it in some way. Yeah. But even no pictures exists. It's it's always difficult to create something that from scratch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sure someone. Will have a stab at. It at some. Point maybe, but have to wait. All right, what's next on the special? Character list. Yeah, I think we we definitely have to talk about. Rakaf and his Black Dragons as one of the most iconic models of the 4th edition range. Yeah, I just finished building the dragon. I only have. 1/2 a Rakaf. I have the lower half so I don't have the full model actually,

but it's a cool one definitely. So I guess you have one of those painted up? No, not yet. So I I have painted. All these in in in it's very early on me. I have painted. So it's it's it's it's it's it's build it and it's it's still waiting for for it's paint job. But I'm with this bigger projects. I'm always struggling with the bases. So I'm making a really a nice base design which which covers my my theme and which is, yeah, in the same degree of detail as the miniature itself.

It's always something which took you years. For example, for my last base I built for my, my, my Sorcerer. That was really a long, long process. So it's these are always things which were a big hurdle. Yeah, OK. Especially for bigger miniatures. Yeah. So that's definitely. Have to do to do this one, but it's it's, it's it's, it's a very fantastic, fantastic model. It's based on the on, on the S shaped dragon design from Trish.

The first one was the the the dragon she designed for the Talisman expansion, the plastic, the plastic version and while designing the plastic version, which is not a free up because Medragon's so big, she did it as A2 up. And while she designed that, she also did some production stand in. They often did that for taking pictures or but then for and this this. That's that's why a metal. Version of it was produced and I still have also that unreleased prototype dragon.

Yeah, I think I have two here lying around. There are only two in. Existence. No, it's it's. It's it's quite a lot. And it's very, very. Funny you, you, you people sell them on eBay don't knowing what it is. So it's 11, but yeah, 11. I did.

I got by chance one selling that and said yeah here a dragon all parts present or what a dragon needs and I got it relief keep all little money and because people don't know what they're selling and yeah and this this this one was the first it was modified a couple of times with different heads. There's also rumoured that there's an alternate black

dragon hat. So it's but I did haven't seen it or have confirmation for that and or maybe it's also that that they mean that from from a prototype, which is looks like the the plastic version. So did the did the Talisman one come before Imrich then I thought. Imrich was the first one, yeah, but Imrich has a different kind of dragon. You don't. What do you mean? It's the classic S shape of it's A. It's a S, yeah, yeah, but it. Has the, IT, it, it, it has the metal.

And he has also a different type of scale. Yeah, and thinner as well. He he's a thinner. Dragon it's it's not as bulky as the dark of 1 for sure. Yeah, yeah, OK, yeah. And I know some of the the big Dragons. They might need a bit of propping up. They might actually sag under their own weight at some point. I don't know if it's the yeah, that's the metal. That's the early days. There was a change. In the metal. So. It's between I think end of the 4th edition. Beginning of.

The 5th edition and you can see that nicely also on the studio miniature of Rakat because when you take a look at the pictures in by 12209 that we released the the good one of blood, you see that they put a big stone under the the record miniature to stabilize him because he's he was bended and. You can also see him in. His bended downward position on the bigger Army shots, which we did in advance of the 5th edition applications. So let's get.

Better. In if with with the later white metal, yeah, yeah, I recently had to do that with. Baldos, my chaos dragon, he was touching ground after a while so I had to. I had the same. I had the same problem. With mine, so it's will be very hard to fix that. Yeah, yeah, I put him up against the Stonewall and. Pinned him too, so seems to work alright. Yeah, OK. So Raquel, nice model. Very very very also very iconic 1. With. Without a model, but very nice that yeah, you you, you get that

character on a multicore. So it's also to to have that aspect which the multicore also get its, its position in later editions of the Warhammer Dark Elves. So it's, it becomes it's own iconic piece of, of, of dark elf. But yeah, it's. Was. Introduced with Hellebron and it's having I think she has general stats and also all the which have characteristics which is very tough and also with a black. With a black. Sword, she's she's whiling. That's also, yeah, very, very cheesy. Yeah.

I never. Used her but. She looks pretty naughty, as you say. OK, so what's more in the list? Marathi. Yeah. Helbron. Helbron's one on the. Mantico, then Marathi. Was Dark Pegasus, whether the whether the the miniature origin was space to be Marathi the the one they released or not, I don't know Certainly there is a sore stress on a dark Pegasus. I guess you I think she's related to it, but it's.

Yeah, but it may be also intended to to play her as Marathi, but she was become more a generic character from from the the box title stats, the the dark saucer is writing Dark Pigo Zeus, and then there's the maybe. Not more. Of the foot version, was that one 6th edition? Yeah, but that, that that was later. That was in 5th edition. It was the the the application piece of Chris's Patrick. So it's when when he was hired as a sculptor in his test phase.

And that's, that's a very nice story about it. He shared on his Instagram. But it it was summer and it was very, very hot, which makes it very difficult to work with the green staff. And that's that's why he goes into the conference rooms, which were cooled down for sculpting and where he's he. Sculpted. Moravi very close to the iconic artwork of Yeah yeah, definitely. It's almost spitting image. Yeah. And yeah, that's. That's also also just this sculpt is of so much quality.

You really see that that effort and and and pain and maybe all his hopes he he's into it. That makes this miniature that special. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a little bit intimidated starting painting that. One I have it. But I should get at get on it. I have so. Far I have painted 4 versions of her. And. I think one further will follow error, but it's it's one I sold with this first army a second

one. I I I traded it was part of a deal for getting that unrealist Sorceress 1 one I converted for for Golden demon project got me a silver trophy in Wyma single 2005 and there must be Yeah and. One I painted mostly black and white for my 1st 6th edition army. OK, cool. So it's I'm. Really. Attached to this miniature, it's made made me a big Chris Fitzpatrick fan. Yeah, but you have one more lined up then for the. I I I definitely. I want to, yeah.

I I. I still have pictures of all of them and it's when I painted the fifth one for for my actual army, it's it's I think it's time for lining them up. Yep, that's looking forward to it. Right. Will you? Include one in your army. Date I. Don't. Know it's not it's not really going to be the look of the one that of the army. I do. I'm probably going to be more likely to do the classic dark elf sorcerer holding the orb with a big cloak on to him. So the old, old one.

And also there's a I've got one up here. I've got a few of this model. You probably can't see that very well. Oh yeah, yeah, I know. Which one that? Might as well he'll he'll be alone, yeah. Absolutely. He, well, he's the image of. Dark health sorcerer in the ally list in the 3rd edition army book. He was, he was the model they used for that drawing. So yeah, they'll they'll be the ones I do. I do have the plastic dark health sorceress from Talisman.

Was she, was she Intellisman? Oh yeah. Yeah. Also. The Dracon's Tower expansion. Yeah, so I've. Got that one as well. I may do, but again. Doesn't really fit the the look of the stuff I'm going for. But you know, just to get them. Painted up though, because it is a nice model, then maybe I'll do that just as a kind of stand alone piece. And you never know, I might eventually decide I want to. Collect the 4th edition. Dark Elf army as well. I've got a lot to do before

then. I've got a, you know, my, my schedule for Warhammer I'll be painting is probably a bit too full to get on to that gesture. I need to do my my yeah, third edition, dark old farmy first. Maybe I'll do 4th as a complete collector. Well, not complete entirely, but you know, as as from a collection point of view. But normally gaming wise, I'd go with the with the 3rd edition, an earlier one, because that's just the the aesthetic I prefer. Cool. And then we have What's the?

Name Quran. Quran. Quran. Yeah, sort of a hero special. Character. Type, I think. Yeah, it's also a bit. Bit which came a bit from the elite tube type. So you have. The current for the Black Guard, you have two lorries. For the Executioners, you have the special assassin Shadow Blade. Yeah, I think that's also. Something that. Differs from the earlier ones where they didn't really sort of create these special characters

specifically for units. Maybe they didn't some cases, but for Scaven's a good example of them doing that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, because you want for each clan. Type so it's. Kind of. But for Empire for example, you don't really have that. In that sense, I think so. Yeah, that's pretty good. The the other interesting thing about the. Dark Hill farming actually is. A lot of the magic items they give out are just bog standard ones from Battle Magic.

Yeah, they're one. They're not, you know. In the other army. Books, you know, when you've seen magic eyes being given, they are unique to that character. Yeah. Yeah, there's a few of those with the dark. Elf characters, but mostly. You know you're looking at Armour Fortune Enchanted Shield Army Charakayan they've installed. Ogg standard magic items that anyone can take. There's very few that, I mean, obviously you've got executions, acts, you've got Melkif's items.

There's one or two here or there that are unique, but generally speaking, they're just magic items throughout the magic from the well. I'm a Battle Magic box set. I'll just find that interesting. Sorry. Chuck that in there. Yeah. No. That's true. Solid. So I guess neither of those actually had any models released, did they? Corano Tolaris? No, but I've seen you're Tolaris, George, Right. You made one.

Yeah, that's which I sculpted. It it was the first miniature I really sculpted nearly completely of green staff. It was also. Yeah, it's I I used. I used the head of Harcourt heart rhythm to to yeah. Skip it part. Sculpting a face? Yeah. Nobody. I I really like that one. You should. You don't have it there? No, no, I it's, it was also sold with that first. Hour. Wow, it's too bad. Yeah. That was a really nice. Personal sculpt, my word, but.

It's it's it's. Especially these, these first things are sometimes very hardly to look at after, yeah, but I think being a bit more different. Skills. It was very nice. I I also sculpted. That that that which else from Mark Eben's artwork. But I I sculpted very.

Closely to. To artwork and and this one is really one I'm I'm I'm having here around and she was as as part of a collectors group it was intended to be released as a as a group miniature but Kim's workshop interfered at that time and I am yeah yeah looking at that Skype today it's not that brilliant especially compared to things I did later but yeah it was it's what part of its time and it's and you painted one of the castings and it's also having still the the green hero

but that's Tulare's one it's yeah it's in the ice yeah good hands yeah so we're going to make a. New one. Sure, it's I, I. Already I already. Started to to convert and sculpt more so it's don't know if you have seen my my blackguard command. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's. And I would definitely love. To. To sculpt the the character or convert them. So it's, yeah, it's meanwhile getting more and more into this Ellie Morrison sculpting sky. And I also talking with him

frequently about the sculpting. So he's he's. Really a great teacher and pushing things into the right direction Yeah, it's a it's a lot of fun. So I definitely would love to give some of of of abandoned the dark. Of. A miniature, yeah, and looking forward to. Also also to. Yeah, look into how, how, how, how it would have looked so especially with the restrictions of of of sculpting head and the 4th edition, OK. Looking forward to see that eventually.

And then we have last one, it's Shatterblade and. He also didn't have. An initiative D not in fourth. No, it's it. Got it. Got one in 8th. Edition the the plastic version, but I think it's. Yeah, there was. Never a miniature for it. It was very, very. Funny in in in 6th edition, we run a competition in the studio, the Dark Elf character competition. And you have to. You were able to.

To. Send you pictures of your converted Dark Elves and with a chance of winning a signed copy of your of the 6th edition army book and I. Had because. I had in in, in this, in this former army, I had all characters converted.

I had one for Hellebron. I had one for Tularis and I also had one for for Shadowblade and also for Curran and and it's and I had really this very nice, very big model for Hellebron and I thought, OK, if I had chances with winning something, I definitely with that on, but I won with Shadowblade. Oh, excellent. So you do have a signed copy of. The on book then. I have.

I have. Yeah, from, from, from. 6 edition studio team around K4, but I have this and yeah, and I I still have the this is one of the mini issues. I didn't I didn't give away. It was a conversion of Brian Nelson's Anwar the the sort of tie light and it's. It's very small conversion. I just changed the scale male against the chain male and sculpted him some some kind of scarf before face and very nice nice. Venetian conversion. For for Shadow Blade and yeah, it took a win. Excellent and.

As you said, Dave, he also has the a couple of standard medic items that were there before moment potion of strength. So yeah, he has to die to get full effect from him. Yeah. He. I say to make that big a hole. He's only got 2 wounds. He's not like a character with a, you know, huge, huge wound stat and and you can't do with him. But funny enough, I I was just looking at not, I said not. Really. About this guy.

But that you could do pull a nasty one with the Heart of Woe in that there's a there's a magic item in Chronicles of War called Lifestone of Ashrae. Switch wounds statistics. So if you were to, if you were to switch wounds. With some nasty, big nasty. Then it's got lots and lots of wounds you can make slamming trees or something. Yeah, yeah, Atomic. Form but you actually have to die as well so that's the you do yeah absolutely, but that's why

maybe you know your. Two magic items are Lifestyle of Ashraaz and Heart of Woe, nothing else. So you intend on dying? Yeah, so did the. The heart of over. The portion of strength, or is it the basic strength statistics for the strength of the horror bow? Do you? Oh wow, now. Oh gosh. There are ways then heart will just place thousands.

Of all models. With the radius even to the bearer's original number of wounds, sustain one attack hit with a strength equal to the bearer's strength plus D6. OK, but it doesn't say original strength. Then so you could no true, so you could be very unscrupulous. Take your potion of strength and add D6. Yeah, that that that would be very nasty. So seven, Yeah, you're looking at strength. I think that would. Possibly would cap. At strength 10, but although strength. 4, so yeah, 4 + 3.

Seven, yeah. So D6, yeah, more than 50% chance of reaching 10 at least. Yeah, so. So there are ways you could make it nastier. Yes, yes, probably not going to get you much friends, but. Could be done right so we. Don't have too much. Time left, so yes, quickly, what's your favorite special character for Dark Elves? George, if you begin, Yeah. Hello, Bron. Hello, Bron.

It's yeah. It's I. I make. I made her one of my big projects in in 6th edition and re sculpted completely the the the Montecore. Yes, sculpting in armored Montecore, jumping from a Cliff and she's upon. So it's one of my most iconic miniatures. I've wondered in I'm a monsters. So it's definitely hella broad. Yeah, cool. And yeah, I have seen pictures of that. 1 is really awesome, so if you haven't listened us, check it out. Dave, which is your special dark

elf. Oh wow, Yeah, he's got to be Malekith. He's, you know. He's iconic. He's, you know, described a lot in the high off book. And of course there's the battle for Neville playing against and techies, you know, his involvement in that. So yeah, for me he's he's just iconically Dark elf. And of course, mythology. Forget. Warhammer, you know.

Mythology, the character of Melcheth is Nordic mythology, being a dark elf, so that's obviously where they nicked the name from and the fact he's a dark elf. So yeah, for me, Melcheth, there's there's no, no contender there for me other than him. Use my tears. Kind of like Shadowblade also I think. He was also featuring some of the. Higher. Stories I remember those duck and he seemed like a really nasty chap to face. So I was had a little bit of things for Shadowblade right.

So we're actually running out of time. We done 2 1/2 hours. So solid, solid episode. And thank you so much George. Excellent insight that we would not have been able to to give our listeners without you, no. Absolutely, I glad. You enjoyed it? Oh yeah. Absolutely. And you're. Most. Welcome to join us for some of the other ones if you want and we need to find your wooded counterpart. I don't know if we're going to find one I might have to drag my

brother into. It although he's more 3rd edition anyone else but yeah well, I'll I'll put the call out and see if anyone anyone's wood elven expert in the yeah yeah I. Think it's going to be hard for us? To find one on on this. Level, but it would be nice. And of course, if you haven't watched or checked out George's painting, you definitely should. I think we should add some links in the episode. So amazing stuff, right? So that.