Warhammer Armies Chaos Deep Dive

Hello everybody, and welcome to the Crowning Man podcast. And today we have a very special deep dive with the guys going through the Chaos Army's Warhammer 4th Edition book. And I hope you guys enjoy their huge one hour, 50 minute talk today. So it's really, really nice of them to do that for us and provide all this great content for the Crown of Command that I have no involvement with apart from just editing the editing the recordings.

But it's nice for me to listen to as well to hear their thoughts and to reminisce about the times of playing Chaos when all the way back in the day in the mid 90s. And I hope it brings back some good memories for you. Or maybe if you're preparing your army now, it's a great way to look at some of the different unit profiles and styles and maybe give you some inspiration before applying your brush to your cast models in your collection. So just a word on the recording itself.

Unfortunately there were some technical issues with our Goodman Jurgen and he had maybe microphone or Internet problems. So I've done my very best for him and for the recording that we included the parts that were audible and I unfortunately had to start cutting out things that weren't audible in the end. So that's part and parcel of doing this across various parts of the world with people talking from the UK, the US and Sweden.

So, so please bear with us. But again, I wanted to make this the best audio quality that I could with the limitations that I have in terms of post production. And I hope that this will be entertaining for you to have a listen to and so that you can enjoy another great deep dive. And there'll be more coming. And the guys have already recorded one. It's in the bag and they're already planning the next one. So they keep me very busy,

that's for sure. And sorry, it's been a little while before our last update, but that's because I've been super busy here in the studio. I'm getting ready to do the next studio update and get that ready to be recorded and then post it up hopefully Sunday evening in European time. And so that you guys can see what I'm working on.

I'm now getting together the armies for the third edition Fantasy Battle Report that everyone, everyone voted for on YouTube to say of what battle report they wanted me to play in April. So we're getting ready for that and something else and some terrain and other stuff as well for other videos coming to the channel in the future. But in terms of the podcast, it's in good hands.

We've got the guys working on some deep dives and I hope to get some other some other interviews lined up for us so in the not too distant future and so we can have and listen to other people's perspectives on the hobby from whatever part of the world they might be from. So in the meantime, guys, I'm going to leave you to two with the guys here. So that's some Matthias, of course, who's sort of the, the person organizing and coordinating all these chats.

We have Dave Gilson over in the UK, he's our sort of law master and he knows all the insurance and outs of all these profiles and RV books, which is fantastic to get to hear his voice and his input on it. And we have Jurgen over in Sweden and we also have Leo. I think that's, I think he's on holiday or for, for business in the US at the time of this recording. So I'll leave you 2 guys. Thank you so much again for hanging in there for hanging in

there for us with this one. And I hope this will make your commute times or hobby times much better this week. So until next time we talk, enjoy the deep dive with Chaos. All right, so welcome to the hopefully not too chaotic chat about chaos in 4th edition. And in this one, we will separate it a bit because the what came before is worthy of the episode of its own. So we will not talk about third

edition. Maybe we will mention it in the but we will post or someone will post the entire episode about that. And today we have a new member of the team and chaos expert, and it's my countryman Jorgen. And perhaps you can start out by talking a little bit about your entry into the hobby and chaos in particular. Yeah, sure. I I'm not new to the. Podcasts I've. Talked to Josh.

Before but my entry to Warhammer was when I was 12 years old, way back in 1994, and a friend of mine, he had the 4th edition box with the high house and the goblins. He introduced me to the game and then I wanted an army of my own. So I just got to look at the front cover of every army book and I saw the box with the Chaos night and the warriors around him and the big thing in the background. And I was like, yeah, this is my army, this is what I'm going to

play. So I started out buying those monopoles, plastics, both warriors and Britain, and I've been playing caves ever since. It's my main army in every edition I have played. So how how big an army did you were you able to collect in in 4th edition? Did you have like massive army or did it grow the addition points? With 10 models, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Points wise is pretty yeah I. Think there was. Around 3 or 4000 points before 5th edition and then one 5th edition came around.

They released these regiments, if you remember. With Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights. Plastics, multi part regiments and that's when the army really exploded in. Prince. Yeah, so today I could probably have 25,000 points of Chaos in Wow. Yeah, that's a good army. That's a proper Chaoticon, right? So I'm not an expert on Chaos armies, I have a small one myself, the 4th edition. But I know that over the editions the way you build an army with chaos has differed a

bit. So how did that work in 4th edition? How? What kind of limitations and how much could you mix different gods and so on? How does that work in 4th edition? Well, you. Had to have a mortal chaos Lord. As a general, then you had to have 25% regiments just like most armies. And the difference with Chaos, I think, was that you could have up to 50% of demons in your army. And the stuff like greater demons counted towards that total and not character total. And you could make some marks

freely back and forth edition. But you have to remember that to be able to take a certain kind of demon, you have to have a character with that mark. And the demons had a a demonic animosity towards each other. And Dave, what was your connection to Chaos back in the days? I know most armies I guess, but yeah. We had something of most armies. Yeah. Early doors of 4th edition, really. One of my friends, his dad, had some connection to MB games.

We don't know what it was exactly, and it was a long time ago, so even if you didn't tell us, I can't remember what it was now. You know, we were kids at the time, but that meant he had rather large battle masters collection that he would sell models off as well. It wasn't afraid to be Mercer of what his dad had got him, obviously. So we picked up some of them from him. We had a few chaos models from

before that. But mostly to begin with, our army was was kind of was battle Masters Chaos, not really painted up, just used. And it was before the book came out. So in some ways less restrictions, in other ways more so you also had thugs in there as well. She lost thugs when the book came out. We kind of took it, you know, sometimes my brother would use it, sometimes I'd use it. No, Nigel was really Chaos player.

So I do remember there was Zinch army that my brother put together using the white box, the white army book that was just a cardboard army cut out from shoebox card. It's just coloured in not imposing of an army that I've got to be honest. Yeah, exactly. That was before we got the the the bat master stuff. And then yeah, the Chaos book was one that surprised you when it came out because I was kind of prepared for the other books coming out because they were well publicized.

They were coming. I missed any kind of advertise, you know, pre warning in White Dwarf that it was coming. Maybe it wasn't that cover or I don't know, but it kind of just appeared one month. So was that 94 or 93? Oh gosh, I can't remember probably 94 I'd thought probably early 94 I think I think might be wrong in that.

And they had the Dwarf versus Chaos back report in White Dwarf where famously he tried the dwarf player tried to argue that the power from the sort of change would rebound onto. To the chaos. General Yeah, no. Wounds only, not powers of. Of swords. No, good try. So yeah, we we played a bit of cast, but it wasn't a main army we, you know, which is why I reached out really to try and see if anyone else was out there. That was a Chaos general,

weren't we? Lucky we struck gold whose main army who's you know who's a who's a chaos Lord, probably demon Prince by this point, I would say of of chaos. So that that's really handy. So this is a rarity on the podcast. I'm I'm a little bit stumped for words on it and you'll probably get less out of me and a lot more of everybody else talking, which is quite. Yeah, and not me too much. So I guess, you know, again, we'll have to do a lot of the talking here.

We used to mention a little bit about the white book. So do you did you use that jargon or did you go straight into the actual army book? The I have read the White Book, but I have actually never used it for Chaos because and the box was already released when I started and then back then we always felt like well this is the official now it has replaced old ones. So we played the latest thing. Makes sense. Are you aware of any major differences? So was it.

Yeah, as Dave said, the chaos fogs were gone. And also the option for pink holes to ride on discs of cinch. Can you use that? I'm trying to think back to the white list now. I think there's a bit more options character wise in the Chaos book as opposed to the white list, and maybe some of the creatures in the, you know, list didn't have character options. I've got a feeling that was that kind of rough top of my head you obviously didn't have gameplay wise, you obviously didn't have

the chaos cards. Your spells were massively restricted. You had four spells per chaos God from battle Magic because it wasn't into box that came out that you got the full 10 per race. So there was that. Chaos armour was only a magic item you could. So you can only have like I think I seem to remember that you were allowed to have multiple chaos armours on his armour. Sorry, even before the box set, but it was definitely a magic

item. So it took up a slightly magic item and units couldn't have it. But then the chaos warriors, you gave them heavy armour and shield. You know, they were they were foot slogging badly. You know, same pace as a dwarf. Not great, but that was mainly yeah, the the the list did flesh it out a little bit. I I think there's a big miss on I understand why they took thugs out. They're trying to very much characterise each army, so chaos was very much a high points cost

elite force. So having thugs that were either human or just above human level was not something they wanted in the list at the time. They felt beats men covered that area and they beats men are funny enough beasts of of a thing to have to fight. You know, 2 wounds and toughness 4, horrendous to have to fight. So yeah, but there there weren't huge changes between the two lists. It was more in actual what you got to play with outside of the

list itself. So like I said, the extra spells and the chaos cards got chaos rewards. Obviously with the box, they weren't a thing before the book. Well, obviously they were in Realms of Chaos. Oh, we just mentioned it, but but they weren't a magic item. If you like an item to take with the whitelist, you just used normal magic items. There were no, there was no chaotic Y, chaotic Y things, if that makes any sense. Yeah. All right, so the book came out and let's focus a bit on that one.

So we used to talk about army wide special routes. We talked a little bit about the the animosity and were there any other special routes? We have gotten a bit into the only books now, so maybe the specialists are starting to get more widespread, but. Unique. Yeah. Obviously at the marks themselves, they were already there in the White Book. I can't know if there was a change. There might have been a changeover of what you got for those. Corn was frenzy and chaos

armour. Mark of Tinch was 4 plus natural dispel. Marcus Lanish was unbreakable, and The funny thing is that they stayed unbreakable even if the unit broke so the character could. Stay on his own. And then you had no shot. And then you had no shot. Not using Mark you. There's no one divided. No. You were, you were kind of. You had to have one of the marks, yeah. Yeah, they were.

Yeah, I'm trying. To remember there's any change between what the actual marks did between the White Book and the the Chaos Book. I don't think there was. There was certainly a change in later editions as to what the different marks actually did. Things like they they realized that plus one toughness was it was quite a powerful, actually quite powerful. It doesn't feel like quite a powerful thing, but it actually in game it is. So they came out to causing fear, wasn't that, didn't they?

But that's later editions, certainly. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Plus one toughness in force. So what's what's the opinion? Which what were they overpowered or the were anything powers extra good? Yeah, because you've got very much Chaos Lords like Toughness 5 anyway, make him Toughness 6 really hard to wound him, let alone do anything else. You know, it's almost kind of putting him up to, you know, monster levels of toughness. So I don't understand where they

were coming from. Fear can be powerful, obviously, but it's only one model causing the fear. So it's kind of like the, you know, the screw at the sword. The the great debate about the the the shrieking blade that, you know, it actually only causes the character cause for not the unit, as has been misplayed many a time that it's the unit. And so it's not quite as powerful as it seems. So for the extra 15 points, the drug banner is definitely the better investment.

Character causing theory is nasty, but he doesn't have that outnumbering thing going on that you know the dread banner does. So causing fear probably is less powerful than plus one's toughness, but maybe that's a good tone down. I don't know, I didn't think else enough to know what. What would your thoughts be on that? Well, the change to Fear wasn't until 6th edition, Yeah. So if we look at the actual list, what were the options for characters? Do they have plenty of choice or

how they look in the book? Yeah, so it's obviously you can have your Chaos Lord and your Chaos Battle Standard battle standard being a hero rather than a champion. And then you get into Chaos heroes and champions as well. That's pretty OK. They're powerful. That's bogged that same as any of this.

You know, you have heroes, you're champion, you're heroes and the Champions, but you've always got Beast Man Lord through the levels, you've got minor tour Lord and down through the levels, dragon, ogre, Centaur Lords. So you've got all those can have characters. And then your Chaos sorcerers, obviously Beast Man sorcerers as well. So probably other than orcs, probably orcs on the one that rivals them. But orcs were laid out. Their list is laid out

differently. So the options are under like champions. All of them are listed under champion hero, all listed under heroes. The Chaos 1 isn't it is spit out. So it feels like there's more, but but yeah, probably less, less than the Orkin Gobbly one. It just feels like there's more. That's why it's laid out. Yeah, that's that's that's made to fill up the book, isn't it? Yeah. That's a choice. It's out the book, yeah. So which one were the the preferred use?

Was it the chaos Lord or did it go into the more exotic choices usually? Well the Chaos Lord was by default your general so you had to have one always. So unless you played really big games it was hard to fit the other Lords. That's where one there's a differentiation to the White Book. The White Book alleges of a Beastman Lord as your general. But I mean, strictly speaking, you could anyway, because, you know, if you're playing with your mates, oh, can I use this

as my generally instead? You know, everyone will have those conversations, I'm sure at some point with that, whichever army you're playing, you know, playing at low points of value. Let's use heroes as Lords and you know, that sort of thing. Yeah, well, I'm sure we've all done that. But yeah, officially with the white. But you could have a beast man Lord as your general.

So there's there's one strength bat and the thugs are the two strengths really of the of the white Dwarf book, White Dwarf white book list. Really. Yeah. Lured in here. 305 points minimum cost. Yeah. I don't think any of the options were exactly cheap. The characters that's they were certainly powerful. Yeah, right. So any other of the more the other choices? Any ideas or thoughts about those? If you did use them, were they?

Which one were good? If you had a like a dragon Ogle Lord I suppose that would be insanely powerful, but was it worth the points? Did you ever try? Yeah, I tried it in. Very big games, it felt like you had an extra greater demon or dragon or something, and I think he could have free magic items back then. The dragon overload, so really nasty. I did often take a dragon over champion with the Heart of the world a nuke Yeah, because you could have units of less than 5

dragon ogres. So you could potentially have a single dragon ogre and upgrade him to a champion. It's still pretty hard to kill. I think so, but yeah, so and well the case. Lord, of course, was good. I really liked him on the on the share it with and yes, Santos were maybe one of those who I didn't see I think ever in 4th edition, but there were some. Did they release any models for Santos K Santos in fourth? Were they all older models?

I believe they were all older. Yeah, well, there was, there was classic sitter ones that were quite small and then there were some, I think they were Marauder ones that were released. Yeah, they were the plastic half plastic ones. And you know, the classic central warring of that sword guy with the helmet on that's kind of jumping into people. He's jumping towards the front of the. They were that that he was one of them. There were like a few torsos, not many.

They're quite rare. You don't really see them then. I mean, I tried looking for the one eBay I don't think any times recently. But whenever you do that quite rarely you don't get many of them come up. So yeah, the older central models not there was nothing in certainly in fourth released as centaurs and I don't think there was anything. No, it was nothing until the Centigor came out, wasn't there or or alternative, you know, alternative manufacturer. Right.

So and we had of course the sources and you could you use Beastman shamans at that point as well, I suppose or yes, the Beastman shamans didn't get any more. But the upside was that they could they could actually mix between which laws they were using. They weren't like a sorcerer with the Markov chinch. He obviously had to have the Markov chinch and then use magic from chinch. But abuse men could actually draw like one spell from. Chinch Deck and.

Maybe two spells from or something like. That and talking about magic, if we do that quickly before the break. So what was the Chaosmatic at the time and was it? Yeah, we talked about we initially only had the four spells per Lord, but then that would expand. So how was Chaosmatic? Well, it wasn't really chaotic. It had some really, really powerful spells. Not many that had any kind of drawback at all. I remember my favorite.

One was a. Power free spell from Spanish, which would turn any model into a tailspin if the failed toughness test. Yeah, and I guess yes. You didn't cause any wounds. You didn't have any saves of any kind. Exactly. It doesn't. 'Cause wounds it doesn't. You know, kill the mammy just turns it. Yeah, that's. Fine, you got the one that's dispelled. Yeah. So did it feel like they were able to sort of theme the magic for the different powers like you said, did Nergal have like

corruption spells and so on? Or did they sort of just randomly Chuck in some spells or? Mostly, yeah, I think they did. And Nergal was and still is quite close range spells that there's not a lot of range going on there. So you've got to get in close slanish more psychological effects and zinch just blowing things up. And there's a bit more to it than that, obviously. But but in essence, that was the

kind of distinction. Zinch obviously it was a little bit tricky as well with blowing things up. You know, you had a few, you can get extra power and stuff like that. A bit more subtle, maybe so. The extremes, probably. There's a few subtle spells there, and there are literally some. Just blow things up, yeah. Yeah, and obviously corn doesn't have any magic, so they are the outsider in this, right.

So did you have a yeah, you said your favorite spell, but did you usually prefer one or did you mix in different battles? I actually prefer the the cinch ones because. As Dave said, they have a lot of. More ranged attack spells, which I felt was very good with when you play chaos and you don't have any normal ranged attacks. So just, I don't recall, but did I know in later editions at least you could have unit casting spells like horrors. They could sort of have a spell in the unit.

Was that a thing in 4th edition or 5th? All demons could castle. Spells except all the core demons except the blood letters could castle spells. So did they have like one signature spell that they used? Could they choose spells? No, they. Drew. Cards just like a normal spell castle. Oh nasty. So they could have a really powerful spell as well to. One spell level per five models of play, Bearers, horrors or

demonettes. So but what a lot of people make the mistake of was like, say you had six models that'd only take one spell. The thought you had to get to the full 5, so you had to do far, you know. Oh, OK, so I was 10. We still won. And that wasn't the case. It was as soon as you went over the five, you got the extra spell. So you get 5, you don't get. One.

Yeah, there was a little bit of. Confusion there I seem to remember back in the day back it's because we were kids and getting things wrong in that sense, maybe an adult would correctly. I don't know. I know why did you later life. Probably still do that. The Chronicle Man is proud to be sponsored by Scott at Black Arrow Minis. Scott has a range of second hand miniatures from several manufacturers which include Citadel, Grenadier, Real, Partha, Battle Tech and many

more. Collections that I enjoy pouring over are the old Perry Empire, Ally Morrison's Marauder Dwarves and the old metal models for Epic Space Marine. So go take a look today and head over to Scott's website at www.blackarrowminis.com All. Right, so we're back and we will start looking at the special characters for Chaos. So did they have a big choice? Were there many options to use it? Depends who you're comparing it to. Yeah. Comparing it to high holds, yeah, they had loads.

Comparing it to one player, not so many, or any other race really, not so many. They had five. They had You had Mordrek the Damned, who was your generic no chaos gold as it were. Then you had two, two for disease and two for corn, and nothing for the. Others. That's uneven. Well, I think probably they were the two favoured powers at the time, the two the people took. So did you use any of them in in games you again? Or were you a non special character kind of guy? No, I used them.

Not in a competitive way, just to try it out. I used, I used egg ring, my horseman, I used echo helbras, I used scalar, scalar or pronounced it. And I also tried out all the not so undefeated, right.

So which was your favorite ones? One of my favorite ones was Eco Helpers. And we talked about other races, for example, Empire, the special cases, I mean, they were the first one they created basically, and they were basically fairly underwhelming mostly were the chaos ones, were they overpowered or were they balanced compared to what you could make on your own, so to speak? I didn't really use them, so I don't know. So you what was your take? Do you think they were they were

more powerful or always frozen? No, Yeah, I. Thought they were weaker, Arbo didn't have any kind of protection at all. Adrian and those are the two most expensive characters I really like in Scala. And Nico, yeah, I, I remember was a cold. He was the one that sort of created life or something around him. Was that the guy? Yeah. The breath of life, yeah. I always thought he was. He was really useful to use

actually. Whenever I saw him in print it was with Chaos Warriors. I thought bad things was basement because I've got 2 wounds, so regenerating like the two wounds, surely that's that's going to be more powerful. But I suppose you can't worry is more powerful in general. So just one of them is probably worth 3 beastmen.

I don't know, I always thought you can't with beastmen because of that because it you know with the extra wound on each of the beastmen could make for a very annoying roadblock unit. So and pretty distinctive model. I think it's pretty cool. Yeah, he. Looks like a corrupted swordmaster, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it kind of looks a bit high open in that sense. But whether he is or not, who knows?

Who knows? Could have been I. Do want to pull out because I keep it whenever I look at the picture. OK so the the the pictures in the special characters thing and I think it is supposed to be Igram his picture behind him. I keep seeing the French flag whenever I look at Igram Van Horseman, that picture because you've got the dot bit down one side. I don't know why I think it's the French flag, but it just in my head I look at that and every time I see that I think the

French flag, I don't. Know why? Yeah, but it's the gap there that looks like the white stripe on the French. That's white. It could be italic. Everyone, you know, whichever one, any ones that are with those stripes. But just whenever I look at it, my brain just straight goes to the French. I don't know why. Just. Some weird reality of me, but

they go now. Now if you see it now, you won't be able to stop seeing it. So I'm glad of that when they look at the picture and goes, oh God, yeah, that's that's my fault. You're now going to see that every time. Yeah, now you've planted it, you know. Right, so and talking about special characters, do they have a were they fleshed out with the stories? That's one of my joys with some of the other armies. I What's the letter?

I haven't read in too much with the the chaos book, the the fluff and the background, but was it well written? Not so much. I don't think they really appear in the story. I haven't read it in a very long time. I don't remember them really appearing in the stories. So not like Tyrion Techlist and those not like, no, not like. That no, there certainly isn't a whole rambling fluff thing for them.

They're they're very much here are some special characters rather than, you know, kind of giving you a rambling story that gives you a sense of understanding the character and feeling like you owe, you know, you have some part of their story. There is no story for them. They just are there being wrong. It's not a bad way of doing it. It's just a different approach to it, I guess, and probably for most of the Army books that's how it is.

I don't think there are huge amounts of stories about the special characters in most of those. Were kind of an exception. To the rule. Scaven maybe as well. There weren't really many story why you know, the undead characters. OK, you had OK for Nagash the counts you had a long history wasn't a story, if that makes sense. Yeah, it was more with the just factual rather than just a nice

rambling story. Now most of the stories in the chaos book, as I remember it, are kind of stand alone and unique and there is obviously there is the ABS and we touched on it in a previous podcast, the. Beautiful. I don't know if that's the right. Word but the very poignant orc take on chaos where you've got an all law when he's boring OK yes, he's written funny but but it's actually quite poignant when you think about it you know orcs love fighting things but

not chaos. You know it's different in later years. They kind of make out orcs just want to scrap anything whereas in in fourth it's kind of you can sense that you know they want to fight but they want to live as well they want to live for the next scrap and the next scrap. This is this is finite. This is, you know, we're going in to fight and not coming back. And there's something very, yeah, poignant, tragic and kind of sad. You thought you thought sad about orcs. There you can't.

Get that feeling of, you know, all of them are a bit shifty about going and fighting the cast boys. It's got that same kind of feel as I don't know if you guys have watched Blackadder Yeah, the last episode, the proper lot, not the one they did later on, but the proper last episode of Blackadder goes forth where they go over the top and. Kind of got this bravado. Mixed with I don't actually want

to die. And you've seen that realization that they're going to die and, and the leaders just come on. We we've just got to do it. We've got no choice. We have to do it. And you kind of get that same feeling. It's only a short story. It's one page, but it's it's very powerful kind of look at not just because normally you get the human or the elf or the dwarf take on fighting chaos. It's rare you get another army's take on fighting chaos and you get it very strongly in that

story. And I just think it serves a shout, you know, special shout out. I'm guessing it was a Bill King. It reads a bit like Bill King. So I'm guessing it was it might be someone imitating him. I don't know. But no, I just think it's one of the best things in the whole book. Actually good. Piece of writing. Yeah, yeah. And obviously. If you go back to didn't talk about previous editions, but there is of course a lot of text and a lot of background and also

the the role-playing game. It's a bit about chaos mostly not from their perspective, but Chaos is certainly very heavily involved in the going ONS in the in the empire and other parts of the old world, right. So if you want to dig into that part, there are certainly plenty to be had. All right, so any other mentions about these special characters that we haven't talked about? So should we go to the the meat of the unit of the army, the actual units?

I'm, I'm happy to move on to you next year. Yeah, Yeah, right. So should we just do a quick take on what the options are? Someone has the book available to go through them. See Let the Chaos. Lord. Kick off Yeah, yeah, sure. And. The very first. Unit. Is chaos nuts? And I guess. The. Stats of a normal hero for some other armies, more or less, yeah. And were they the? 1st to get A1 plus save yes yeah. You could do. With. Magic items before that, yeah. And they could argue.

But you know, like the banner of. Shielding, you can get it. And on ball boys, you know, the Savage ball boys wasn't. If you put the shaman in and he had the banner of the standard of shielding, yes, you could do it. But without additional, yeah, without additional magic items on top of what the allowance was for the unit. Yeah, they were. They were. And of course with those. Tricks. You could get better than one. You could get 0, maybe even a negative.

I don't know. Well, maybe that was only character you could. Yeah, yeah. And 4th edition stopped you doing that, Later edition stopped you doing that. Even if you roll one, it's still a save, but it just makes you have a negative and it stays at what it is. But now in fourth. Yeah, you literally got A1 plus save or better.

Yeah, I remember there was a. But was that the dwarf and the chaos battle report where the minus or something got stuck on A1 plus chaos night unit and they couldn't do anything on them? Long B is when it yeah and well. They they would have had a strength force, they would have had a -, 1 to save, but still AT plus save is horrendous to try. Oh yeah, it's still. You know, very. Hard but the you know, just I don't know it's it does make them tanky, but but it is a against them.

What you need is is volume of attacks, isn't it? Because if you're rolling, if you get at least as long as there's a -, 1, obviously if there's a -, 1, then if you roll enough attacks against them, they should fail at least one or two. And because when you've got one wound, they're quite brittle once you get through the armour. Yeah, and of course no. Armour save attacks or medic would be very bad old for us. Handguns, probably. One of the best things to use against them.

Yeah, yeah. We'll have a one in. Three chance of punching through all right, but then of course they come at the price. So what was the the reasonable unit size to use? You know, like two 3005. And they could, of course, have. Marks as well. So no, no, they couldn't. OK, so you couldn't make them corn at least, and I mean that. That was their way of. Making them dedicated was by putting the banner on them.

Obviously you can only use one banner per power, so you can only have one unit or too fair enough, 3000 point army in 4000. You know, in in 4th edition you've probably only got 1 unit of Chaos Nights and one unit of Chaos Warriors anyway, yeah. We have someone joining us. Yeah, it's Leo. I met you guys on the on the Facebook. Yes, yes. Maybe we can just. Take a few minutes and you could perhaps talk a little bit about your experience with Chaos in 4th edition if you started back

then. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's when. I started, I started with the the the the box in like 93 and my first, my first touch with 100 fantasy I was in France. As you can tell, it started with the white book from the box and I used the minis for battle masters for many years, same as Dave. Actually, So yeah, yeah, I, I think a lot of us.

Started this way, right? Little by little after that I I collected something bigger, I think mainly in the maybe like around I I moved to the UK in 2008 and 2009 and suddenly hitting minis was much much easier on eBay for for force edition. So I started collecting some forces more consequent. 1 then. And then last year I painted a big Northern army, which was fun. And I, I tried to do it a bit less peaceful now and a bit more as a, as a big block. Yeah.

So I painted about 5000 points like track down everything, the old great and clean 1, the palanquin, all these things. I played only. Once with it, it was about two weeks ago. It was really fun. All right, so maybe an open? Question for everyone. I don't think we actually talked about that or you mentioned shortly that they were like, really you like the art you again and that was sort of what caught you. Yeah. So for for you, Leo, what was it

that got you into chaos? Was it just by chance or was it a a conscious choice that you really wanted to do so? I, I, I. Gotta say I've got one of every army so maybe I'm not the the. Place that's explaining why an. Army in particular, but the what? I remember my style, yeah. Not of everything, yeah, yeah. Why make exactly? Why? Make choices. And then when you pick an army,

you just get one of each, right? But I remember very clearly the artwork from the the books that were in the in the starter box, but the the matrian Smiths and Steven Tapin, I get names right. So that's that's like I still still have like that from memories from that. And it created a very powerful well, I suppose. Excellent SO. All right. And we were talking about chaos lights possibly I guess the is it the most powerful unit? Well, most expensive unit. About the most powerful, but

it's only the most expensive. You know, given Chaos arm, you know, we touched on this. Six points given Chaos armour, they're 80 points on the model. Units. Wise, have you talked? About. Putting a standard in the unit, a lot of it's a big points. Investment so rarely. More than five I suppose. Maybe you could use 4 on the the champion or something so you didn't need to. Well, I suppose it it. Also depends on the size of game you're playing and who you're.

Do you know what you're playing? I mean if you did a chaos versus chaos and went silly put you know, 6000 points you'd probably still be able to fit onto a normal 6 by 4 board but have have decent sized units. So were you limited? To one unit at least? Or could you have several? You have any number. Well, within points limits, obviously. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So all right. And then the the chaos was on foot. I guess there was that wise identical or how was that?

Yes. Yeah, exactly the same. Just just foot versions of them obviously, and they will. Still have a pretty respectable 3 plus if they had chaos armour, could they have chaos armour? Yeah, yes. Chaos armour, yeah. You kind of, if you weren't going Shields, really, you had to go Chaos armour because otherwise they were crawling along at 3 inches. Heavy armour, Shields, you know, you'd, you'd be -1 so like, like kind of like Reichsgard, Matthias, yeah.

You know, Yeah, I know those. That that. Lovely unit that no one uses because they're too too slow, but I have. Used them and I've actually used them to some effect, so I don't think they're that bad. But obviously you you usually can't choose your battles, so that's a disadvantage. Did you? Did you? Reduce shadows to Mattheus. No, no I didn't. No. They were actually attacked by orcs and the orcs just bounced off. So I yeah, yeah, OK, yeah.

So, so you weren't, you weren't dynamic with them. There was kind of more of a rock, a hard place for yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, yeah. They perform. All right, So warriors on foot and then what? Or maybe I do want to talk about those a bit more of are they so were they often in your lists? Leon Jorgen The case was on foot. Yeah, I I think they're so. Emblematic. You can't really miss them, especially if you want to play something that feels bit like the realm of chaos.

And I suppose you've talked about that. The beauty of the 4th edition book is that you have everything in one army. You have your chaos warrior, you besman your demon and she's like bunch of different things, but still somewhat cozy, especially if you just play one chaos code. So chaos warriors, yes, always, but I just can't find the right size units. 20 if it's too much 1010 not enough and then but 10 is already like 340 points and that's before banner and

everything. So it's it's they're trickier to play than than you think when you see their start line. What my? Take my cast wasn't these days. Is that probably a support unit rather than a frontline unit? So you you would be and then bring. This chaos worries. In at the side so you can probably go possibly can go with five because you don't need rank bonus. So you'd have long lines, maybe six or seven in in in one line charging into a flat.

It doesn't look particularly great, I admit, and and it feels a bit dirty, but it's probably the most effective way of using them because you get their attacks then without needing the rank bonus because your rank bonus comes from the beast men. That'd probably be my take these days, but back in the day, yeah, I would have, especially with the Battle Masters ones, as Leo was mentioning about Battle Masters. You know, you got those lovely halberd, OK, Monopos, but those

lovely halberd guys. And yeah, you got quite. A few of them in battle. Masters. So you had at least the unit of 10 or so? And what were the? Options for equipment, Was it halberds? Could you use great weapons or? Yeah, they're one of those ones We. Got halberds, additional hand weapons, double handed weapons, all that you know, all the all the lovely flavours of of killy things they could use. Nothing ranged. And obviously they got you could have Shields with the heavy

armour or chaos armour as well. Slightly less because they're not mounted to it's Chaos armour at +7 points, but it's still a bit of a investment. On the 24. Points. They already are. For for an extra. One point of armour save. I don't know. I don't know, but it means you're not. Losing. Yeah, it means you're not losing. Movement I guess so could combine it with. Standard of shielding, True. Then you're down to two. Plus. Very healthy. For. Infantry.

That's pretty insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So what's next on the list? Beast Men. Beast men. Yes, we talked. About them a bit insanely difficult to kill toughness for two but are they do they do anything in battle except not dying yeah the kids they're. They're good tricks. You got Weapons Killer 4 and Toughness of Four too? Well, yes, they're very good. I mean, they're probably. The strongest units in the infantry units that that's

available, they're not super. Expensive. 10 points OK it's more than an elf but double the double the woods. It's it's extremely worth it. Big block 2025 and maybe several big blocks and they're hard to shift. Yeah, they're they're. Like the mainstay unit of your Chaos army, especially going from the.

White Book where? You still had thugs from previous editions and you lost those obviously in in fifth, they came back in the form of marauders, but in fourth of using the Chaos Army book and yeah, basically a pretty actual mainstay unit. There's there's nothing else that cheap that you would rank up that much. And and you know, with heroes in them, obviously the hounds and harpies are almost similar sort of points cost. They're, they're still more, you know, at least five points more

each of them. And they're, but they're not really frontline combat troops, those two. Your. Beastmen are pretty. Much it. So unless you're playing a very high points game where you can get lots of warriors, beastmen are pretty much the the main thing in your army. Yeah, and I guess. Those who could feel like 20 strong without a problem then. And at that point I suppose there was only one flavour of Beast men. There wasn't the angles and stuff or how do that? No, only one. Type of.

Beast, yeah, but a good one. Angles, yeah. Angles existed in literature, as it were. They were. They were spoken about but they weren't officially anything in fourth and without touching on Realms of Chaos and as a definitely mentioned there, but again, there's not much actual game wise about uncles. It's more just talking about them and you know, fluff and saying mostly they don't get into combat because they're considered weak and so they're not even taken into battle.

This is just beast men. Yeah, this is just beast men generic, you know, it could be anything. When when the book was released, you still had the marauder beast men that were that were available to buy, but they but sorry, before the book was released. Then when the book was released, obviously you had the lovely Periscope, some of the best beast men, some of the best beast men ever done ever, ever sculpted.

And they were kind of beast men really for until you got to six and plastics came out really obviously had the halberdood as well. You had the halberdood Monopoly hat plastic you had. Monopoly's Halberds. And the B and the Battle Masters plastics that were very similar to they're kind of a bridging between the metal marauders and the Peri ones. They're kind of the hybrid of the two. You could see the transition of beastmen in them. They were very smaller.

Compared to the they were small. Yeah, well, all the law, wasn't it? It was all. It was all. Slightly smaller scale, the Battle Masters stuff, but you know not, not if you look at it, you'll see it at a glance. You won't notice the deal. Yes, yes, yes. Right, so. We'll move on. What's more, in the choice of basic troops, Chariots. And of course, Chariots, I guess they were very much glass cannon in 4th edition. They could quite easily be taken off by any shooting.

Pretty much. But maybe the KS ones were a bit tougher. Or how did that work? Yeah, slightly tougher. And they had their KS deets. With topless 4. The crew could either be warriors or. Beastmen. But the big thing, in my opinion, was that you could mount characters on the Genius. Demonic.

Beasts, right? Yeah. But characters, so you could create quite nasty combinations with the Chariots and you know, so was that something you used a lot to put maybe your general or something or did you use that possibility? Yes, a lot. Yeah. Has anyone ever done the Juggernaut Child's combination I've seen? It I've never played it played against no same. Same. Same. There was always like kind kind of a dreamer. Yes. No ridiculous, but great. Did you try Jurgen? No.

I didn't own. Enough juggernauts, right? Yeah, that sounds insane. I I remember actually, I think I faced maybe Case once or twice, but Juggernauts in any form was insanely difficult to kill. So yeah, tough guys. All right, so what's more in the list? Chaos Hounds. Next. 1. So what's your? Take on that right. That right resilience fast talking about the leadership. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not as good as Harpies for a little bit more price,

right? So if you have the choice, you take Harpies, but it's still a pretty good unit. Small small size so. Whether mostly for harassing and hunting more machines and stuff for fanatics. Yeah. They got they got high movement. Well, no and he's 6 actually. They really got movement of 6. Maybe they're not. Maybe centaurs are better for like no for for movement. I was thinking.

About the the flesh hounds and I was looking at, I'm looking at the book in French and the movement for 4th edition was in centimetres. So I see 15. I'm like this is great. And then actually now it's six. Yeah. That's confusing, but. Exactly. All the. Measurements in in morehab. For for us. Are they centimetres? OK, yeah, because I didn't. Like that? Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We had to learn. Inches In Sweden it was unusual for us, so never occurred to me that. Yeah, thank you.

I had to learn inches as well because it's it's a apart from war game is. Pretty much in debt. You buy milk in pints and stuff like that. So imperial measurements are there in that sense. But generally speaking, most things are metric like. But it's not a completely alien concept. I guess if you guys come into it, it's a bit more of an alien concept, yeah, yeah. I. Don't think I ever used it in other situations more or less, but. Then they had a centimetre.

Scene. That's a bit weird, yes. Well, you know. That was That's not good. No, I see. That's it for the. The Chaos Hounds, Flesh hounds. I suppose we'll get to them later. I. Think. The chaos. Hounds are quite good for flying attacks and stuff like that. But like you said, before Yogan, at least it was for us. I mean, the light cavalry and stuff, we didn't really catch on the nuances and how to use it. So almost always, you know, oh,

heavy nights, that's the shit. And those light guys we live in. Yeah, clearly. OK. And you mentioned harpies. Were they the same harpies as Yes? And they were in regiment. And they're not 0 to one choice 0. No, they weren't. No, you can have. Loads. Of them, they were in effect a flying beast man. In effect, they had a slightly better leadership, but overall they were pretty much a flying business. They had two wounds.

You rank them up, they couldn't have standards, couldn't have musicians, they couldn't have a champion. So they weren't so great in that sense, but for for fighting against artillery because they can rank up. Oh, hello. Yeah. Or holding up. Shooters. Like you, you, you charge, you just charge the the the shooters, the other army and you can hold them back even if they don't win the combat. They just keep them tied up. Yeah, yeah, so could. You fly high with them or do

they stop? Yes, yes, and. They're not very expensive. I mean, 15 point spot for that. It's it's bargain, yeah. Tough life. For artillery crew, yeah. Everything else have you? Have you had to? Be subjected to them a lot, Matthias, in your and your battles as an Empire general, with your lovely artillery and your Archers and your cross with your handguns laid out. And you're thinking these are safe? I'll just shoot your knees, pieces and harpies up here. Oh God, yeah.

That's rough. But I didn't face those armies too often, so not the standard one. But also of course, flying stuff in general, that was always bad. You got like one or two shots off and then that was it probably well. It's it's one of these. Units where you have as a as a chaos player to restrict yourself a little bit because you could run 456 units of of five and that's a real Wrecking Ball. So one, one or two fields acceptable. More than that, it's just too much. Yeah. Yeah.

Was it? Considered a bit dirty even then yes, he's he's, he's. Gone back to undead and carrion again. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Too many. He's just. Dirty or he's too many units and my brother often has an issue with I'll quite happy to take 2 units of Carrion. I haven't gone for three yet, but 2 units of Carrion is

definitely a do it and help. He's I think if you've got the models then yeah, 2 is probably a good thing, but whether or not you've got enough to have two units of 20 flying around, I doubt it. Or 16 to get that +4. All right, so we're coming. Up to the next break, time flies. Get. Started where we. Left off. We talked about the Harpies being great and nasty and probably not used in more than one or two units if you want to keep your friends. And so what's next?

The Minotaur monotours? Yeah. Yeah. They had some sort of blood, greed or something. They were sort of eating. Yeah, they did. They also had the. Conundrum of base size with minotours. Not in later editions, but. In but kind of was it in foot? It was. Mostly. Third, we tried not to do the what came before, aren't we? But it has to be touched upon. Mine's all started off on 25 millimetre bases really. Yeah.

So from 20. 5 millimetre bases. They were supposed to be a little bit bigger than an ORC and. The models. Were to start with but they slowly got bigger and bigger. Kind of kind of mere kind of territory we're talking here. Yeah, as in some for me was supposed to be 25 and some ended up being 40. That was more of a miscommunication on size between Brian and the sculptors. OK and mine tool suffered a similar thing. The original mine tools were quite small, around 25 and then. Slowly the.

Models got bigger and end up on 40. I think by 4th they were supposed to be on 40, but because there weren't any 4th edition monitor models unless she counted the plastics from. Quest. Yeah, and there was another. One wasn't there, I can't remember what. One from Quest, one from Talisman. There was slightly different. One had a club, one had an axe. So unless you used them, you're

using older models, so you. Might well have. 25 millimetre base montours who if you took the 25 ones and put them on on 40s looked a bit small for their bases. Obviously in non competing games, for games for your mates, whatever size you want, as long as basically you're happy with it. But strictly speaking especially, it's a 5. So that's kind of where some of that comes from is that they were 20 fives to start with and became 40s at some point between 3rd and 4th.

What was it like stated officially? Or was it some sort of sliding thing that suddenly happened? Or the. 4th never had any official base sizes together. There's nothing that snake. This has to be the size of your base that really I think you know did that even happen in 5th? I'm sure even in your. 5th. Really. Well, it got Really. Official on base sizes because, you know, Tornas had really taken off I guess, and so you just had to.

Look at the sort of official pictures sometime and figure out what they were using I guess. And even then, you know just. You know, whatever feels right, yeah. OK, so were they popular to use? Did you guys use them in in the games? Well, it's funny because I don't. Find them amazing. They're expensive for what they are. They only have two attacks. But I always. Have a units small unit of three, something like that. It's but because they're emblematic and they look they

look cool. I use the first edition models fear is mightily useful and they and they, they do some work on the flanks to support like a unit of Bisman or or Chaos Warriors. Yeah, I, I, I. Tend to find a useful obviously you can go double handed weapons, in which case they're hitting really hard because you've got a strength 6, but generally I think that mantra's best thing is is an additional hand weapon so you've got the actual attack you. Then have you know 3.

Attacks per model that they they, I think they start coming into their own then, but you've still got to be careful as with any sort of monstrous, you know, ogres, trolls, all of them, you've really got to be careful of rank bonus, you know. More so than cavalry. Almost because they're that much wider. So yeah, similar. Similar. For using them as cavalry, you'd say yeah they are. Little fragile, it's only toughness for three wounds no save you can them light armour

but yeah you bothers with. Light armour, yeah. Not worth much. OK so a bit flavourful and they have that better rule but that was was at a disadvantage. I don't remember the blood greed or what it's called. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. OK, so what's next if we're moving on Dragon no girls. Hello. Big boys, Expensive. Boys, Yes, Yeah. 87. Basic points cost. Almost an Empire general. Not quite, but not too. Far. I mean they do have 4 wounds. Yeah, 4 wounds. Strength.

Of this 5 three attacks, they've got that scaly skin you can give them additional armour on top of it. You can give them extra hand weapon kind of the magic standard. So they're very expensive. The only weakness I think of the main weakness is their leadership of seven or unit like that. It's it's low, but they have really exceptional characters as well exceptionally expensive. So I think it's a. Unit that works. Well, for very large games and you give them a hero Lords and. You've.

Got something a bit silly, but and. They had something. They were became friends by lightning. That's the thing. Imports. I seem to recall they were immune. To lighting. And did you, you said you pretty much needed a big battle to field and a number of them that were they standard addition to your armies in big battles at least, Yeah, you need a. 5 or 6 in in smaller game in smaller game like 3000 points maybe maybe you had two, but it's they do the.

Same thing as Minotaur. 'S if you do that, you can keep them on the flank as a support unit and that was, but it's low initiative as well too. Yeah, well as. I mentioned when we talked about the characters I also set up. OK, Yeah. And I really like the models I have one have intended to paint for some time. But yeah, I don't know how many different models do they have. Was it like two or three or or too? Many, yeah, but I think. You could switch weapons and Oh

yeah. No, you had different bodies. You had six torsos? Yeah, one. OK. Cool 6I. Thought it was 3. No. OK. Oh, yes, Yeah, there was, yeah. No, you're right. Yeah, I can see in the in the thingy in the catalogue that's had you have in the catalogue pages, isn't it? Yeah. I mean there. Was there was a? Prime, one single prime model they released beforehand. It was a bit smaller than these guys, but yeah, didn't they? They tended to be a one off modelling an army in a chaos

army. Those ones back in back. In the day. Before this, this was when they really became units of dragon Ogas. Really. And yeah, they were. They were nasty. I seem to remember there was a Dragon Ogre Shaman back in the. Yeah, there was a dragon. Ogre Shame that didn't translate into into 4th. No, you got you got heroes, shamans. Yeah, that would be fun. Costing spells. Yeah. So yeah, good looking upon

themselves. Yeah. Right, so. And I guess they were like you said, they were sort of support units, but I guess yes, at least moderate foe they could expect to punch through pretty well. So I guess they could go toe to toe with quite a few units even ranked up maybe if they they do have the attacks to, of course, the wounds. Yeah, they've got lots of

attacks. And weapons together 4 as well so you know in strength 5. So again, additional hand weapon is probably the best choice for them, taking up to four. Attacks each charging. Into a unit they'll probably do an awful lot of Ness. I'll. Have to try them at some point I. Haven't really tried dragon ogres yet so that might be an experience to try, but then it's 90 points.

And you you might be better off with three or four minotaur rather than two Dragon Ogres if you if you play that kind of size. OK, Yeah, interesting. I think the. Top just five. An extra room makes some, yeah, but. It it. Makes them almost too good then for support for all or you kind of want them as like Oh yeah no, I'd say they were. A front line, yeah. Or Jesus frontline. You need to. Get them to actually go go into bathroom sneaking around, in fact. Absolutely, especially given

light. Arms are up to tough to save of four. Plus then yeah, you definitely. Put them into without toughness and a good save. Yeah, they got going to combat, aren't they? Straight away, as soon as you can. Well, really. Yep. Yep, lovely. Models, yeah. Interesting. Yes, OK. So what's next? Centaurs. Centaurs. Yeah, talked A. Little bit tough. Those before and then we did. Yeah, about the models. There weren't any for 4th any models. There was some released before

then. You had Centegos 6th, I think 6th. Yeah, yeah. Did they disappear? From the 5th book were they even? Were sent to us. Even in the 5th book. Nope, they were. Gone. So there's no news we got. They. They got. Mounted chasm and Robust instead. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And. I think could you put both on them if you wanted to? Yes, right. Now your only. Missile troop in in the book, yeah. Yeah, I suppose yes.

Maybe not. The most effective ones, I guess they could, yeah, but they're pretty costly, I suppose for a bow to yeah, yeah. And officially if you. Gave them bows, you couldn't give them a champion because. Champions have to be on the. Exactly the same as the rest of their unit and Chaos one allowed missile weapons in the characters points points what they were allowed to take the equipment so if. You gave missile. Weapons, they weren't having a champion.

Officially, obviously you would do it and you would probably would let you unless they were complete rude word, I would let you. But officially, no, you couldn't. Yeah. And I think. By the way, listeners. To see. I never thought about that. Yeah, it's the same thing like Outriders can't have Champions either because Champions is on the. Same way the rest of his regiment, except that he may have one magic item. So yeah.

And then if you look at the the equipment list, they're not allowed any of the missile weapon. So officially, there was no way to build a champion for a union of centres with bones. Interesting. Yeah. Again, I'd let them do it if they were against me. Yeah, yeah. It's not going to. Break anything to have a champion inside to you, Dave Sky. Era of Nalua. It can. Oh yeah. Can you remember? Yeah, but it's. I'm. Not sure about that one. It's.

Supposed to be a one shot. You could go for the Bow of Toralesi. There's like a 5.1 from Chronicles of War. You go, yeah, that's the one as well. I'll have to read. The word, in fact. But that's very false edition. Right, actually have to read the wording of the magic items too in the. In the sorry. If you really. Really want. To you could perhaps claim the case, get away with it like Dave

said, you know, among friends. I don't think anyone would be horribly upset if you did it anyway and just said, you know, give him a vote. And if they are, you've got the wrong friends. Yeah, yeah, absolutely right. So pretty rare, but yeah. Did you use some deal? No, never. There's no meanies and Nope. Right? So if anyone. Have experience and find the best unit they ever seen. You know, let's know. But OK, so next song.

Yeah. Trolls. The. Last The last entry in the units Trolls. And are they just just trolls? They don't have any favours or. Well, in fourth it didn't. You could use anything at the same cost. So you can either use them as trolls, stone trolls or river trolls. Oh, OK. Use use. Whichever 1 you wanted, Yeah, in actually, it says your army may include any number of trolls on which there are. Like. Trolls, stone trolls and river trolls. OK, so there. Were no chaos troll models in

specific ones in force? No or no? No rules either. Yeah, it's. Just literally trolls and and obviously you. They must be in the book somewhere, probably in the B street. They've got the rules for the other types of trolls, I'm guessing. Yeah, stone trolls are. Yeah, there's a special box on there on in the B street that tells you the different, you know, the stone trolls and river troll rules in the list. It just simply states trolls and they could be only of those 3.

Yep. So they are identical to other trolls so we don't maybe have to go into that too much. But did they fit slots in the the chaos army or where they did other things do the same, better or I think I included? Them because I had troll models. So they were away bulking. Out the Chaos army, yeah. Not that he really needs bulking out, because. Everything is expensive but but they were and they are quite, you know, trolls are quite survivable. They just suffer from

leadership. But you know, you could have them led by a chaos champion on a steed. So why not go for it? You know, it's they're or a wizard or something like that. Or or with zinch you can see him on a disc and then you know, have him fly along with them. No reason not to so well led by a decent character. I think trolls are worth it in the chaos. I mean, they're survivable. They're not brilliant in combat.

But as long as you're not. Running away, you've got a decent character leading them with a decent leaders. They're not running away from, you know, losing a combat. Then they can stick around for quite a while. Obviously you can go for the crown of command. Yeah, for, you know, almost indefinitely, especially the battle standards. You know, the very expensive hero Battle Standard is knocking around somewhere. Have them led by the battle standard with the crowd of command. There you go.

Yeah, you're not going to move anywhere. So the trolls are good you need but the the the the aesthetic in false edition felt they they arcs and goblins and when you included them in the chaos arm, it just it just felt a bit weird. It didn't felt like very chaosy, Yeah, I mean. There were some some of that in in a lot of armies. I think you could, for example, put a vibe on in an Empire army and we felt no working government thing, isn't it? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, not not too hard. I could get into. You know previous editions but. Trolls certainly were. In the Warhammer Army's Chaos list for 3rd. They. Appeared. I think they they were also in the zinch and the nergalists. I don't know. I can't rough top my head if they appeared in the slanish and cool ones from that was a chaos, but certainly they they were in chaos armies at that point. So it was, you know, they were in both, but I think from.

Yeah, in, in. Earlier ones, I think there was an idea that trolls could be an army in their own right as well. Yeah. So I mean. From from forth and forward. I think they were very closely tied to Orson goblets. They made such a big thing about. It and didn't really make such a big thing about trolls in a chaos arm if they'd appeared in back reports. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, then you'd have thought they were chaos as well. Yes, yes, yeah.

And of course. Later, they were actually chaos trolls that were, yeah, exactly if they'd released. Models for them yeah as well if they'd released maybe some base just just non stone or I mean there were obviously non stone Rivertrol models from previous editions if they'd released some in force when they. Did the chaos. Army people were like, oh, those are chaos trolls. Is it all trolls in a chaos army? Not chaos trolls as such, but there are trolls in the chaos

army. So yeah, it's it's they weren't released at the same time. They were released at the same time as York and Goblin army. So yeah, people are supposed to meet them with alls and models, right? So. You have a pretty vast choice of different sort of that would later call monsters infantry, I guess, and I guess you would really include all of them have to be a huge battle, but you can certainly add a lot of flavour. So if you short summary, which is your favorite of the big boys

if you have to choose, oh those. Three, you mean? Oh yeah, maybe. All the big stuff. Yeah. Yeah, OK. They'll probably dragon ogles for me. Yeah, I think that's fair. Same dragon ogles, but purely on their their skulls, their their. Background. Story. Yeah, well, from a gaming point of view, I think I would maybe take Minotaur's over dragon ogles. But the dragon ogles. Look so much. Cooler, yeah. And yo-yo yo. Dragon Ogres. Yeah, so. 30 to the dragon ogres.

Yeah, yeah. OK, so let's go into the slightly smaller but still pretty devastating demons. I think if we move up the list, yes. Who wants to kick off demons? Yes. Yeah. I mean corn first. Blood Cell Star. I mean, when I was a kid, this this unit was dream. It's like 10s everywhere. 800 points. Oh yeah, we're talking about the. Great, the demons now, Yeah, these three wounds, I mean, it's the. First entry in the book, right? It's. The one that comes first. Yeah, and.

Of course, that was an absolute monster and like when we were the bloods of. Surprise. It's just, and of course we were sort of trying to be power gamers and everyone's OK. That's the biggest thing in the army book. That has to be the best. I don't think I actually faced any of them in the in a sort of normal battle. We had some sort of mega battle at some point. But yeah, obviously they were horrendously powerful and yeah, it would probably much melt anything it came into contact with.

I guess there were some sneaky ways you could kill it outright with the spells and stuff, but in combat it would be difficult to do anything because I think he had like D3 wounds as well. Yeah, yeah. So unlike the flesh hounds, it doesn't have a color of corn for some reason. So it's not protected against spells at all and. In the game we played. Like a couple of weeks ago, canogal against cinched. I think it's the bulk of change

that has that can just kill. Yeah, you're talking it's against toughness and yeah, I suppose it's almost 5050 with toughness of seven. So you could one shot it and and of course there are cannons that there's also ways to to get rid of it. But yeah, and it's. My favorite with Empire, the purple sound, it had a three plus to kill it. So there were ways of course, but yes, yes, and some blades as well. Cross blades. You're getting rid of it. One wound done. Yeah. What's? What's happening?

Yeah. Was. Was the way you could either go with a death. Rune. Of death something like scarf black cameras room where you don't need to worry about wounding scarf scarf or the other I come which way round they are but one of them you don't need to route wounding so there's that one but. Again, you've also. Got a hit? You're gonna have one of those two. Rooms, OH. Dear. Maybe the hydro blade? That against it, but there is a strength as well. There is a demon. Slayer sword right?

But I can't remember if it kills outright or if it's I think it's wounds. Automatically or. Or or plus 3 + 3 strength standard, isn't it? Yeah, and then wounds automatically. We've still got a hit that's from with with. With. It's really hard. So that's yeah. What actually, what is Wolf Rooms? Yeah. Yeah, and you and you really had to attack first because of the the demons first. You're not going to be doing anything. Yeah.

So that's profit nasty. And the if we talk about the the smaller demons as well, the blood letters, I guess they're pretty nasty as well. Yeah, 20. Points for two. Attacks. Weapons Skill 5, Toughness 4. Yeah, 02/3. Toughness 3. Yeah. These these three. Wounds. Four plus demons say yeah, it's they're very. Good. I would not put them. On Juggernauts. It's a bit. Overkill or. It's just as a silly you need for a very large game. They are they're. Very solid units. Yeah, yeah.

I agree on foot really good, but mounted probably aren't worth the points. Yes, no, 90 points. For that, yeah, 20. Points on. Foot, you know, we with your OK, it's demonic save, so it can be effective. It's still a four plus save to begin with, you know, and and doing D3 wounds per hit with a you know, strength for web skill of five to attack. I think that's pretty good. Infantry, that is, Yes, yes. Did they cause fear or no? They were friends? Yes. No. No. They cause yes.

OK. Yeah, I can imagine that having. Those guys bearing down on you wouldn't be nice. All right, so and then were the Flesh Hounds in 4th edition as well? Yes. Yeah, well. Very good. So they're they're expensive. So it's five points and they only have one attack, which is the shame and feels a bit weird, especially when you compare them to the chaos hounds. But the rest is like they've got their their corn cola on translating. Yeah, of corn. Yeah. So that was no.

Magic worked against them or no? Magic weapons no. Spends pretty absolutely. Well. You probably only had use. About 5 or 6 of them, or if you're, if you're being, if you're being particularly flavoursome, you'd have a unit of eight, obviously, because sacred numbers. Of the which? Didn't really come into 4th but. Yeah, there was sacred. Number and eight was for corn, but really they could be OK.

They've got a good save and they haven't talked to some 4 but if you shoot enough things at them, they will die because they've got, you know, OK, yeah, two wounds, but yeah, they're a bit more brittle than the blood letters, I'd say. I I don't know. Like was there? Toughness for two wounds at 4 plus save I. I feel they're actually more resilient than they are an offensive unit with their single win for 35 points.

It's been low, but then if there are two for this price, they would be. Yeah, I. Just think the 35 points is a high price point for what they are. It depends if you're OK, OK, maybe you, you by having them in, your opponent knows you're going to have them. You may be informed that decision on Wizards. There's that argument. So it's kind of a tactical choice in that sense. But I don't know 35 points. Is a lot for SO. Their features really their movement like their movement 10.

So that goes really fast and you so so you would want to use them as a as a shock unit, but you end up using them as more of a like like. Cavalry. Support units which might. Not be what they. Should be about, but they work well in this form. Yeah, and of course. Corn is sort of in your face and with fancy and everything, so you basically do. They're not too much tactics about them. I guess you sort of push them forward and try to hit

something, don't you think? The. Demons. Frenzy, So you kind of don't have that defence. You can use frenzy. Against people. They don't so so. In in that sense, they're probably better than having a unit of warriors with the org Knights. With the banner. Yeah, they're they're probably better in that sense because the opponent has said can't use them. Use your frenzy against you. With them they can just. Yeah, they're they're they're

good choice of demon overall. I think, you know, when you're looking at the kinds of demons there are core ones, they're pretty simple, G's point and click and they do what you want them to do pretty much. So yeah, good stuff. Do you have any experiences, Yogan? Did you use the chaos demons frequently? Yeah, I have used the flash arms a lot. See what's? Next in the. Demon lists we have Nergal. Nergal. We have, of course, the big boy. Yeah, with his 10 wounds. Yes, 10 wounds. Office.

Of eight. Very, very fast DC. Yeah, he waddles. Along with the rest of the army, yeah. So I. Guess it would be more difficult to get sort of his points back if the enemy didn't want to. Yes, he's very characterful. He's what I was. Very characterful, but you know, I like Leo. You had one, didn't you, in that battle you played? Yeah, yeah. And he had the, he had the duel with the Lord of Change. Obviously the Lord of Change charged and you can see the

difference. It's maybe a bit tougher in combat than he has an extra attack compared to the load of change extra toughness. So he he. They were grinding at each other. But the the the great and clean one that slightly the upper hand. I. Discovered or rediscovered a bit of noggin magic. There was some interesting spells in our country called them exactly, but it's it's quite short ranged, but it's there's some good stuff like halving everyone. Within 6. Inches stats unless you're a no

girl champion. So that was interesting. Some of the movements table and that that's that's a feature across the Nogal army the the cavalry the the piece of Nogal as movement of three yeah and I. I must say, I really love the Beasts of Nogal. I think they are absolutely adorable units and when they write about them, there's like huge deadly puppies. They just want to play with the enemy or they don't see them as enemies.

I see them as potential friends and then they slobber all over them and they die and they become disappointed and look for new friends. Why? Do you? Move three inches. Yeah. Or six if they you know. It's not the fastest cavalry going, is it? Slower than infantry? Yeah.

Oh yeah. And. And. Like a little aside with the, the palanquin rules, which I, because the model is so lovely, I, I, I want to use it, but they, they released some rules in Citadel journal and they treated as a child with movement 4. So it means that can't March, obviously. And then they did another Persian in in. 5th. Edition against the journal and this time you can move 6 which is a slight progress, but again like this army will not go anywhere. Yeah, I've always. Considered.

Using it as a possibly a demonic steed, but then movement 8 feels a bit too fast by the nagging. On acid or something you know and and just a base of. Nerglings feels a bit weak as a mount, so yeah, I almost like Nergal. I think it's it's a very, it's sort of slightly comedic maybe, but it's the. Least. Serious of all the kills Gods, yeah. And he's. Basically a, you know, really jovial guy and yeah, I mean, he just wanted with. Friends to. Become affected by pet stones

and stuff. So yeah, good times for everyone, yeah. And. Of course you have the plague bearers, the Yeah. So what's your take on? Them. Yeah, I really like Plague. Bearers, I've got a I've got a load of 4th edition ones I need to get painted up sometime, but also got some Realms of Chaos ones. So prior ones, decent size. You know, they're not used them often, but I just like the models. Yeah, I think there are there. Are a whole lot of unique

models, right? They have a bunch of choices you can make pretty much 20 strong and not too. Yeah, absolutely. Just just wonderful, wonderful models, very characterful. And the -1 to hit is, you know, that's, that's fantastically useful. Yeah. Yeah, they've got. Plague swords as well, which auto kill on 4 plus that's that's dynasty. And so the the problem with a lot of the chaos minor demons is the magic. So if you want to run many units, you end up with many

spellcasters. So I tend to play them to house rule them to cost 20 points and not have spells because otherwise you just spend your your games during the magic phase. Yeah. So yes. I I don't remember but how did it work with? Like you have escape cards and stuff for when when you use the unit to cuss the spell. How did that work? I mean, I suppose you can use. Escape on one plague belt? That might not be worth it. Yeah, the. Entire unit pops.

That would have been weird. And and and they can. Pop plague belts can ride Beast of Nogal which makes it. Creepy. Along. Yeah. That's. Yeah, cool, but maybe not very practical. Yeah. OK. So we're back. For perhaps the final 40 minute session here and we had almost finished knurgle, but we had the little guys left and maybe we should give them a few minutes at least. The Knurlings. Little Slimers. Yeah, very cool.

Also. I love those images with the knurglies crawling all of the the Great Unclean One eating his stuff. Yeah, pretty disgusting. But are they useful in combat? Not hugely. But you're going to take them anyway because they look so cute and cool, so. Everyone will will have. A couple of units of them, yeah. So how do they? Function, are they like swarms or are they more of a normal units or no they? Can run away. They have a leadership 7 for some reasons big lower than

everyone else. They've got their demonic save, OK. They cause fear, OK. So I don't. Know 33 bases on each end of your army, something like that. That's that's about what they're good for, yeah. I'd agree on. That one they're they're characterful, but not necessarily useful. So that's farmed, but. Not. Competitive. Yeah, I think that's the. That's not good for you. Yeah, I kind of think. Of of people seeing Ghostbusters afterlife we've got. The Stay puft.

Little marshmallow men, The tiny ones. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's kind of. What they are, isn't it? They're, they've got little, little children mucking about with each other, probably doing horrendous things to each other, but just this is fun. That's yeah, they're, yeah. They're a comedy unit if anything. We, we, we haven't really. Talked about the Beast in more details, but they're also horribly expensive and horribly inefficient. Yeah. But they're not.

Going to die severely. So they're probably no, but they're not. They're not going to. Slowly do their. Thing, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, if you. Can sort of transport them into combat maybe that would be nice. But yeah, so if you won't, doesn't have any displacement spams. No, but you can. Get around that in various ways. We'll just. Say that in the book. Really. All right, so let's move on to one of the final 2 powers. Yeah, Zinch is up next. Zinch yes. They change your ways.

Yeah, he's. He's. Kind of he's my. Main how I like also like noodle as well, but also like zinch. So they're the two kind of. Gods that I have troops. For I've got some slanish as well, little smattering, but it's mainly zinch. I just love the disc riders for zinch. You know the the as a beast. The disc is fantastic because it's yeah, cheap flying, really cheap flying.

Just got to be careful as people don't because the only issue with with the disc is I do believe that someone can kill the beast out from underneath you. I'm not sure about that one. Can you check it as? A No. The cavalry, yeah. The the their mouths and the mouse. OK, so you can't that's. OK then. OK, that that problem goes away. The the need for a parachute goes away. That's that's.

They're nice and cheap. And the models actually, you know, they're just really cool with the thought of them running, you know, this flying around on, on a, on a demon disc. It's coming through the air and so. On yeah, yeah, it feels. Pretty original. I don't know, maybe they had some inspiration from somewhere, of course. But yeah, they're definitely iconic and they survived through the editions, I guess. So I'm still around in some way. What's? What's really?

Missing from this this army book is chaos nights on, demonic steals on on. Discussed. Steinch would look would be a bit mean, arguably. Very cool, yeah. Can you have? A chariot with the discs No yes, can you oh so yes for characters for. Characters, but characters you can. Does it fly or not? I don't. Think so? It does fly, but. It can't fly hard. Right. And. The demon himself, is he compared to the other greater demons? Oh, does he? So it's funny because. It's the least flavorful.

It doesn't have any special role. He's also a cheapest. Isn't he? Or always cheapest. Yeah, he's by 50 points. He's he's the cheapest unless you include the great the. Scavenge. Yeah, but in the book, yeah, he's he's. Cheapest of the four I. Like him that. I like his inks then. All right. And so maybe not too much to say about the a greater demon compared to the other ones, but I mean, it's still a greater demon. So it's still a a monster in combat and it's I guess level 4

cost and and and tinch. Magic. Which is nastier? Yeah. So that. Was the ones who had the. Bolt of change, is it the I would you get it? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Right. And then the troops, the flavours, I guess, horrors. The most, well, horrors are the most expensive fiscally, in real terms, are the most expensive demons you're going to get because you've got to pay for three models per one. You've got to buy them. You've got physically, you've got. To buy blue. Oh, OK.

Yeah, you mean that? Yeah, yeah, Blue Blue Horror as well as your. Pink horror to work. So yeah, especially these real. Firms. They are the most expensive. Demon, you're going to buy. And obviously the Blue Demons must have any cheaper than the the other ones. I suppose so. Yeah, of course not. Yeah. And I guess you would almost always end up with a mixed units, you would have both in one if they took any casualties. So yeah, pretty unique route I guess.

Just basically so so fun. It was. It was. It's really fun to play them or to play against them. Yeah. And you? Couldn't. It's a challenge you never. You know you can't buy them on their own, but it's a challenge you you never face. Like as as you fight your enemy gets more numerous. You don't. Get that anywhere. Else in the game so it's it's it's fun yeah if. Your opponent. Doesn't know about it. It's a very nasty surprise. I should. What you're not taking away. You're adding.

Yeah, that's. A big surprise. And are they good? Compared to the other demons, Pink horrors are pretty good. Blue horrors? Not as much, no. But I guess they're supposed to be, you know, yeah, too good. But that would have been awful if they actually became better when they died. Can't that be horrendous? No, they have been as far. As Mike in skill 5. You know, strength 4, that's pretty good. Only time necessary 2 attacks still, so they're pretty good. They don't get.

The same they don't get the same No, they don't you're right they. Don't get that one excited. Yeah, that makes a difference. And like deals or demons, at least when I play them. 10 points cheaper Novagic. But I guess also. They compared to the the blood letters on the platelets. They don't have any medic weapons or anything. No maybe medical tax, but yeah, right. Agree. So Yep. So definitely a unique unit with a unique feature. That's right. So we have some other sense, yeah.

What the? Flavours. Yeah. Almost like a mini war machine. If I remember correctly they're quite nasty answer. Is that the best? Demon units, probably. Yeah, it's my favorite. I would say the best. Yeah, yeah. Because I think they, they're not horrible in close combat either. And they I know that's two attacks. Strings five more. They've got weapons history, but they move 9, yeah. Then they.

Can shoot and. When they shoot D6 hits, yeah, it it's unbelievable yeah and and and strengths 5 and they cause these three and they cause these three wounds on top of Oh yeah yeah that's. Absolutely horrible there. I mean, they're going to melt them away. Pretty much any monster or anything they face unless they have really high toughness. So you you give. Them you give them a hero or champion or without them discussed since to help them a little bit, yeah.

So if you face them, it's going to be a priority to try to shoot them off the ball. I guess if you were able, if you can, you should. Yeah. Definitely not expensive 50. Points ahead, yeah, And that's they're. Very fast as well. So yeah, they've got to be in your face and. They can go for obstacles, leap. Leap over. Anything. Yeah. Right. So yeah. And how long do they shoot the shooting attack or what's the range? Only 6 inches? Oh yeah. Yeah, at.

Least one limitation on them, but still going to be very nasty. So how do you use them? Do you use them for shooting or do you get in? But that's the beauty of it. You can. Use them for anything so you can have relatively small units. They're resilient. Just five. We do a lot of work. They. Can charge they. Can harass, they can flank, they can do anything. You can hunt cocktails and party areas. Are they 0 to one choice or can you have several units? No, you.

Can have several as. Many. As you want. There's no, I'm just looking, but there's no 0 to one in the army book at all, OK. Right, so 5050. Percent of your army, isn't it so? If you want to take all your 50% as flamers, you can do that, yeah. But yes, I think so definitely. Borderline Gnostic or way across

the border, I suppose. All right, so if you want to have a versatile and really nasty unit, flamers could be the way to go. All right, so is that it for sense or do they have anything else? No, that's it. Yep. OK, so let's move on to the final one. The slanish, the rude. Dude. Rude dude, Yeah. And. Yeah, I guess DWS treated that a bit differently over time. Maybe earlier it was more outright naughty and maybe they washed, washed that up a little bit later.

A little bit, yeah. But yeah, it was still about pleasure, I guess in the 4th edition. So. So we have we start off with the greater demon like the other ones. So what's her thing? Or her, her and he's. It's mixed, I suppose. Pronoun time. It's a solid demon. It's a solid great demon. It's it's not the best, it's not the worst. It's it's just a solid great demon. Does a, does a good job, not particularly fast, but he's not

slow. He's got movement at six, but overall it's certainly not the worst great demon going at all. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's funny because the lot of changes is cheaper, but can't fly and I think flying makes such a difference. And obviously for the blood source to even more this one movement 6, you can you can avoid it, right and. Some sort of special rule, right? Yeah, it's got a lot of. Spanish. So you need to test under your leadership to be able to attack. It could be good.

If you're lucky, yeah. Unlucky though, yeah. And slavish magic. What's How is that compared to country? Quite strong if you have the right space. Yeah, the demonets are. Next, Yeah. So what's your take on them? There are. Weapons kill seeks 3 attacks they're. They're as fragile. As the. Plague bells and. The blood letters but. They they can do more damage.

They don't have any special rules for their weapons, but like these three attacks are really, really good and I and I think it's the only demon units that's worth putting on on steeds because the steeds are incredible as well. Yes movement. 12. I agree, yeah. That's pretty insane moment. It's at the highest in the game for ground moving. Could be. Yeah, I think it. Is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's also bargain. I think at 25 points. Yeah. So they've got toughness 5, which?

Is bit useless, interestingly, yeah. Well, good When? Drawing Chariots. Yeah, strongly nasty. So. Super turbo Chariots. I do have to make. One, I'm not a fan of the form of the. I'm really not those. Huge. Some people love them, some people say iconic. I'm not a fan. I prefer the earlier models, but I say that with nice things so. Maybe. I'm biased anyway, but I prefer the slimmer, sleeker look of the. Realms of Chaos ones to the. Great big huge fall. The claws are so big they'd fall

over you. Know and. I and I accept that some. People absolutely adore those models. It's one of those things some people love. The first multi part plastic night goblins, I can't stand them. Some people like the Wolf edition demonettes, I can't stand them. But each their own I think. I think they have a charm. I understand, but do I like the models? No. No. Yeah, of course. Yeah, and they're supposed to be like otherworldly beauties, and maybe that's not what they comment on.

Yeah, they're a bit monstrous. Yeah. Huge. Bulging. Biceps. And and massive claws, human claws, they. Don't. Really fit with the aesthetic they were supposed to have That's that's my main issue. I think they're nicely sculpted They look ridiculous with the claws, but they're nicely. I don't think they're badly sculpted. It's just they don't I think you've hit the nail. They don't fit the image I have of what they are. Yep, All right, so and what? Else does slunge have to bring

to the table? Beans of. Yeah, weird ones these aren't they? That's a big. Thing right? Like bugs with. With. Almost human slash gene stealer like hens. Yeah, yeah. So hard. To rank up they're. Supposed to go on cavalry. Bases and they've got like this massive clothes to the side so you can't put them next to each other. It's a nightmare. They like the clothes. See that that's that's an actual physical downside of the 4th edition Slanish models. So nasty. Claws. Yeah, certainly.

Again, they're nice. They're nice enough models, the things, the 4th edition ones, just yeah, ranking them up is probably a bit hard, but again, I, you know, yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to mention it. You know what I'm going to say? Yeah, they're not. Very good. They're not very. Good. Well, they're not, actually. Very. Giving. I've never really. Used them. Yeah, So what? Are their limitations? Why are they not good? So they've got three attacks which.

Is fine but weapons, skills, strength, toughness 31, wounds 6. So you can't use them as like fast harassment support units. They're clearly not like a frontline unit. No, they're going to break. Very easy. They're very. Fragile and wouldn't toughness read they've got that the money save but still and expensive sorts of points model. Yeah looks right. Have you found any? Use for them Yoga No not. Really. I think they're the worst. Team, I mean, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so you would even take no. Links for them for the same. Whoa. OK, so we don't. Actually, like the models, they're difficult to rank out and they're not very useful, so clearly not our favorite, but you still take them. Because they're part of the Slanish army and they're somewhat favourful. Yeah. So did you ever feel like feel pure demonic armies or was that a thing? Usually you couldn't if you. Follow the rules.

Oh, OK, yes. So what was the you need a a human general or did you need other stuff as well? You you mean? Yeah, you can only. Spend 50% of your points on. Yeah, OK. And. Technically. Your your, your greater. Demons are not characters, OK? They're just demons. So I'm not. Even sure they can they. Can't be the general right? They no OK. I. Mean. You could. If. You're, you know, of course, playing your mates and you. Wanted to do it.

There's nothing. Stopping you and it's probably a good thing to do because it it is insane. You know, in a 2000 point game you could play and 700 and 5800, whatever it is of your points are greater demon. Officially you can do it because you spend up to 50% of your points on that. But your arm is really tiny. Really. Even more so than normal for chaos. So I probably wouldn't.

Do it myself in in anything below a 3000 point game and even then even in a 3000 point game of demons are big investments. Yes. Yes, yeah, it was a real small comment to use the. The troops, various cans, yeah, OK. And of course, we need to settle this. Which is your favorite of the four? Fab. 4. You don't. Have to rank them all but. Just pick your favourites for me Zinch. Closely. Followed by no. Cinch for me. As well and then slime. I would say corn. Based on, like, childhood

preference. Yeah, I love them all. Really now. Yeah, I think we talked. About that before as well, if you just you know, you don't know too much about the game, the tactics, you just look at the stats and the killiness definitely will be the kids favorite. I think the blood cells still is so. Iconic. I think everyone started playing as a team at that time. Just remember the blood cells tells us 10 wounds and 10 attacks and frenzier. Oh no, sorry, no frenzy.

No, there would have been. 20 attacks. Yeah, but. 10 attacks, weapons kill 10. Was it strength eight or seven? And three wounds per attack. I mean, it was overkill again, almost. Can I just say 1? Thing actually. I'm going to change my favorite chaos God, Sure. Of course. Etsy. Well. OK, maybe. You're allowed to do. That, yeah, but yeah. You'll definitely spoil for choice. With Chaos, you can do quite a few different, Yeah, armies, of

course. And if you like we talked about if you don't abide strictly by the rules, you can do a lot of other things as well. You can do pure cases. And so, yeah. So that sounds like fun. And my memory from the times I faced Chaos was that they were quite strong. They usually beat up my empire handsomely. I don't know what your take was. Were they powerful in the 4th edition in the right hands? Absolutely All right, so yeah. And I think it was quite popular

when it came out. And of course, one benefit was you could get away with a quite low model count and still get a viable army. Yeah, when I when I. Run my painting challenges that I do Chaos is always quite high up on the list of numbers of people doing chaos because yeah, small number of points to paint, you know, model count wise. So yeah it's certainly these days it's probably more popular than it was back in the day of football.

It may be unclouded in my memories, but typically back in the day, certainly amongst people that I played, chaos wasn't necessarily a number one choice for most people. I. Think it probably is more so now, but. Then again, also prevalence of course is probably higher as well, simply because gauge watch would have made more of a thing of it as well. Yeah, very cool of everything. Now there, there. There were not a. Lot of battle report with chaos, at least as far as I can remember.

They did a lot more on, you know, health. Oxen Goblins. Yeah, they had one against dwarfs. And but I don't know if it. Was anyone against Tails? Yeah. Maybe that was fifth I. Don't know. No, it was. Just before 5th.

Yeah, yeah. It was when a grim came out and they had this like, who was the best magician take this eye Grim. So they did this sort of duel with Emerick as well, Yeah. And I remember that was probably later in 5th or maybe in the sixth, they had that, which was the best special character, but obviously fourth, Yeah. And Austrian that didn't they? And they had a love pester that came off the top. That was a bit cheating.

Yes. Right. So I think we've gone through the book and it's been a lot to talk to talk about. And does anyone have any finishing thoughts or anything they want to touch on that we haven't. If not, I guess we'll no, we don't really. Want anything else? Yeah, and. And. No, no. Everyone likes chaos. So. It's. Very ablimatic. Of the old world, Yeah, yeah. Definitely and a driver of the lore or maybe that's all now. Thank you all very. Much yes, thank you and we'll.

See how and who will do the the what are you? Planning to do next in in the. List of. What we're doing for the group, as it were, next. Will be dark out.