Hello everybody, welcome to the Krannickerman podcast. This is Joshua Host and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Mark. Mark is a active member of the Bedroom and Battlefields Discord Group and the Krannickerman Discord Group. If you don't know what Discord is, Discord is an application that's accessible through your phone and through your desktop
computer. It's basically a social networking site without all the ads and all the other garbage that goes with most social networking sites these days. It has channels related to hobby and whatever it is because we created our own Discord group and then we can then facilitate
different text and voice channels in there. So people can access, for example, for a Krannickerman one, you can access the Avalanche painting channel which showcases loads of people's wonderfully painted projects or work in progress images of their models that they're painting. It could be about bad reports and people posting up about
their games they're playing. It could be more specific to a game, a specialist game or main game like Epic Space Marine, Man of War, you name it, it's all there. So there's numerous channels where you can go through and check out what wonderful stuff people are doing out there in our community. And if you wanted to sit down and paint and chat with one of the guys during the week, there's voice channels
where you can do that. You can access like this a camera so you can show people what you're painting at the time or if you just want to chat and talk to the guys there as you paint, which is a really nice social aspect to the Discord which I think is one of the strongest features of it personally. And I get to connect and chat with guys all around the world with different time
zones. So it's been a really invaluable part of the community as we see it grow and more people join and share their stuff and connect. Maybe there's a player locator channel where you can maybe find someone locally in your area that plays the same games you do. So it's become a valuable extension and tool for us to grow our community and feel that we're even
closer. We've got remote games where people host like Chris and Cameron hosts games in Man of War. I played Space Hulk. I played the entire Space Hulk campaign with Chris through Discord, which has been fantastic. So that means basically he sets up the board and all the miniatures and I just instruct where I want my models to go and I roll the dice and I show my camera where my dice are and that kind of thing.
And we have a great time. We have other people joining in and yeah Discord's become a really valuable part of our community as we see it sort of grow and hopefully develop over
time. So me and Mark talk about that a lot and also Mark is a patron of mine and also part of the painting tutorials that I do for a number of students at the moment, which is great to see that sort of growing and I'm showing people how to do certain techniques like how to paint black, how to paint yellow or how to paint a specific race.
For example, Power Storbs, how to do the reds and all that kind of thing, how to paint faces, how to do certain techniques. So me and Mark have done a couple lessons now. We're going to do a third one this week and it's been great to see his progress through Discord as he posts up work and progress shots. So that's another great feature and it sort of connects me
and him as well. We can talk and chat and paint at the same time as I show him different things that he needs to learn to continue with his projects that he's painting on. So if you want to check out the Patreon for the Chronic Command, it's a we have a seven day free trial that you can go and access all the painting videos now. There
are two that are available. One is the Ork Space Ork, he's an evil son's, I've painted the face and done the my recipe for the skin tone on that. And there's also Night Goblin now, which you get to vote on, you get to vote to see what you want painted each month. And at the moment, there's a Night Goblin. I did the black on his robes and I did the free hand
marking on that as well. So doing a bit of free hand painting black was the one we did for April this month. So you get to vote again next month to see what next minute you want me to paint for that. So that's part of the Storm Boy tier. And then there's the heavy ledge, painted surreal tier where you get a 40 minute lesson with me, one on one, just going through what aspects of painting
you want to learn about. So, but we get to talk about that in the interview anyway, so you get to know more about that as we go along. But I hope you enjoy Mark's conversation with me. I really enjoyed it. I hope to have Mark back on at some point in the future, as he has a load of great things to talk about and lots of knowledge about the hobby and great ideas. So until then guys, enjoy the
interview. Yeah, thanks for taking the time to come and chat with us. No, you're all right. Don't worry. It's good. And yeah, today we're going to talk about, you know, your involvement with firstly your initiative to start up a group. Is it called the Orcs Tavern or something like that? I
feel the reminder. Yeah, so it's the Royal Orc. And it's the idea was we had over on the Bedroom Battlefield Discord community, we decided to run a kind of Christmas party, if you like. And it was going to be done in the style of a virtual pub. And we had, you know, pub games and silly things like that and quizzes and just general chat and getting to know each other and people
painting along. It worked really well. We had about probably 20 people join, which we were really surprised by. So David and myself sort of got together afterwards and said, well, you know, this is something that we could do more frequently. And we decided we'd do it on a kind of quarterly basis. So we did one in December, and then we ran another one in March, going to do
another one in June and then September. So there'll be kind of four times a year that people can get an opportunity to meet up and chat. And it's worked really well, actually. And it's been great to get to know people, see their faces and kind of find out a bit more about what they're up to, tell some silly stories and plan.
And, you know, it just sort of gives a bit of a structure around, rather than doing it as a drop -in, we thought, well, let's try and do it as a two -hour session. And then people join for the majority of it. And actually, most people were able to come along and join for the whole lot. So it was great. That's awesome. That's great. Yeah, it was a really great idea. I did manage to catch the last, what, 20 minutes
before everyone dropped out and went to bed. Yeah, I think for you, it was at like four in the morning or something, ridiculous, wasn't it? I think it was like, I think I got up at five, I was going to get up at four, but then I just couldn't
do it. I don't know why. And I just, you know, naturally just woke up at like early about five, 30 or so, and then jumped in, or I think it might have been six o 'clock or something, and you were still there. And I thought I'd just jump in quickly. But yeah, I was really surprised at the number of people there. And I thought it was such a great idea. And
the Royal Orc, I think, is a great name. And yeah, you're going to see lots of people in that you had some topics you discussed during that session. And yeah, it was just good to see people just doing a hobby and hanging out and, you know, showing their faces on camera or not. And then, you know, just contributing to the conversation. I
think it's a really good idea. Yeah, it was something that worked well, because we talked probably 12 months ago about the idea of having regular paint and chat sessions. And I think because the painting chat sessions that exist on your kind of command discord are popular, it felt like maybe that was a little bit potential duplication. So there's already is somewhere
to go with it and do that. So it felt like we wanted to come up with something that was got a little bit of something different about it. And that seemed to work. And the other thing that people enjoyed about it is I tried to bake in things that are, you know, like, for example, roller d6, and then we had like just random conversation generators and this kind of
thing to talk about certain topics and stuff. Because I think that sometimes you get those awkward silences where everyone joins and no one really knows each other. So just ways of doing that to stimulate it and kind of drive it forward and turn
it into a bit more of an interactive session. I think so much so that actually Matthew and I have been talking about the fact that you could kind of do a slightly stripped down version about and actually run it as a podcast. I know you have in the past, you've had podcasts where you've had maybe seven or eight guests on and you've hosted and asked them
questions and stuff. And it's nice to hear so many voices and so many people's different views on it. Yeah, I think podcasting can be a really lonely play sometimes if you're just doing it solo. And that's why I just do not do solo podcasts. I had done it in the past, but I just refuse to do them now. That's why it kind of affects it on me with me sometimes
when he can. And I always have a guest on, you know, to talk about something because you want that extra voice, you want that sort of, you know, to and fro a bouncing of ideas back and back and forth and actually having a conversation. I was going to suggest even to you, because I started doing live streaming recently. And I bring on not just one, but maybe two guests at a
time. And it's just a nice way to, again, sort of you have a conversation about a certain topic. And I'm a fan of certain other other YouTubers that do this. And I think it's a really great way to invite former guests back onto the onto the live stream. And for other people to get to know them, they can see them talk to them, they can interact with them. So it's kind of in the same kind of medium. But
what we're talking about, of course, is Discord. And Discord is still quite a enigma for some people that just don't know what it is, how to get into it. And it's quite a difficult, well, not difficult, but it's not difficult to get in and enter and start. But I think navigating your way through Discord is kind of strange and new for people who have never seen something like this before, you know, going from
personal experience. So maybe it's a good topic now about Discord and, you know, how did how to how to get in, how to find these chat rooms and that kind of thing. Yeah, it's a strange one. And I when I signed up to Matthew's Discord, I'd never had a Discord account before. And I just thought, well, I'll give it a go. And I'll see what it's like. And I joined and that that point, that's probably the
second person to join or something. There was only a handful of people in there. So it was quite a safe space to sort of try out what even the how even the technology worked and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I've not got any, I've kind of about 10 years ago, I got rid of all my social media accounts, because I was just finding it just exhausting, just doing scrolling and looking through all this sort of
endless stuff and all the adverts coming in. And just found it like it wasn't good for me. So I got rid of all that. And I found I was a little nervous, well, would this call be similar? But I think it's sufficiently different it's quite focused. However, what I then did is I then found your Discord and joined that and then I joined about seven or eight other ones. And that point, I then found I
was a bit overwhelmed. So I'm now only a member of two or three. And that for me is about the sort of peak spot where I can keep it organized. And I know what I'm doing. And I can have a little bit of time looking at it. And then I can have some time away. And it just doesn't become too much. Because I think that all of the social media platforms out there, they're all private
companies. And they're all obsessed with keeping you on the platform. That's essentially what any software solution is. And nowadays, it's keep you there, keep you on the
platform, get the adverts in front of you. So same as the television was, you know, in the 1960s, never one was panicking that children are going to be polluted by the TV. And, you know, essentially, social media is all about putting interesting stuff in front of you so that you then read all the commercially beneficial stuff to the companies who are advertising. But Discord doesn't have that about it as to whether it
will in the future. I don't know. And I think that that's a risk area, but something we just got to manage as a community. But as a way of getting to know people and have conversation and be open and honest and positive, I think it's really fantastic. I mean, I'm genuinely surprised by how little negative comments ever creep in, how many people ever say things that are a bit off color. It's
almost never. The community is very self -pleasing. And I think that there's almost a Connecticut that comes with Discord, where once you get a critical mass of people behaving in a positive, you know, sort of grown up way, then everyone else will follow suit. And I think that you will you will have experienced that on yours, certainly. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I like coming into Discord and didn't know what it
was. And I was quite, I don't know, a little bit cautious about Discord or just not overly well -me'd about because when I got in there, I thought, oh, what's this? You know, it just seems like it's a bunch of separate channels and people are chatting and that kind of thing. But then I over the years, I've really grown to love it. And it's my number one source of not just information,
but interaction with people. And I think the paint and chat is the best thing ever, because what it enables me to do, it enables me to paint and talk and not get distracted. And I think you touch on it really well there with all the other social media platforms, even though they have their own, you know, useful properties and that kind of thing. We go to Facebook for certain
relatively thing. We don't go to the paint and chat, but go there to look at other people's miniatures or enter discussions, maybe. But mostly it's just for like pictures and watching people doing their hobby and that kind of stuff. But Discord is a great way where you can have that. Plus, you can have these channels where you can watch, for example, remote play games, guys, host, matter of war, Blood Bowl, you name it,
whatever game they're playing. We do a lot of that on our Discord, but you guys do a lot of similar sort of stuff, but sometimes a bit more varied. You talk about books or we talk about, you know, parents with their kids and gaming, you have your own sort of, you know, as you say, your own paint and chat channels as well. So, yeah, like I said, they're really good environments,
very friendly. People are just, it makes people enthusiastic about the hobby, gets motivated to do stuff. We've got painting challenges with the whole thing. So it's fully encompassing. I think it's very welcoming. And like I said, like it's just full of positive, good people. And yeah, I think that sort of rubs off on other people. And
I don't think we have any sort of bad eggs. You might get the occasional one, but they don't last
very long. Yeah, that's true. And I think the other thing that it seems very good at is being respectful of the fact that everyone, so we always kind of use this phrase that we're, I say always use the phrase, I can't remember what the phrase is now, but it was something along the lines of, you know, we've all got, we're sort of very diverse in our approach, but we're united in our
passions and our interests. You know, and I think that that's the thing that really works is the fact that you have this environment where people who, there might be people who are collecting brand new age of sigmar models and showing off their brilliance looking stuff.
But then at the same time, it would never be seen as inappropriate or wrong for someone to make a bit of a golden space marines joke or something like that and say, oh, I only like the 90s stuff. It's almost like everyone is entitled to their opinion. And it's all just collecting toy soldiers and playing with them. And everyone's very mindful of
that. So there's, there's kind of people are passionate about what they're passionate about, but never to the detriment of somebody else's passion. So I think that that's, that's incredibly evident in how people are. And some of the stuff that I've seen that other people do, you know, it might be things that you think, well, I personally wouldn't do that. It doesn't hold interest for me, but I totally respect
the fact that they're doing it. And the way that they're doing it, the passion they're putting in is, is remarkable. Yep, absolutely. So yeah, if one has a different take on the hobby, what, what the hobby means to them, it could be sort of current stuff,
could be old stuff, like we do. But it's great to see people just, you know, painting and doing something that's, you know, very beneficial for them in terms of having a hobby, like ours. So yeah, yeah, it's great. So we've got historical stuff. Well, I think we've got on our channel too, historical gaming as well. We've included that. We don't have so much of the modern stuff, but it does
pop up every now and again, which is fine. Like we're not going to shun anybody to say, hey, you know, we don't do modern stuff. It's, it's, it's nice to see people just actively doing something. Maybe they're playing the latest game of a one of a quest or something with their kids, or they're playing the latest here request or something like that with their kids, which is really
great. And I know you guys are quite diverse in the topics you cover, because it ranges from everything from, you know, like solo play type really niche game companies to like the big boys like games workshop and all that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's great to see just people active, you know, showing pictures, because that can
be quite daunting for people too, isn't it? Like showing their photos or their model models and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a
really significant thing, I think. So, you know, I was, you know, I was in the hobby until like when I was, when I was about 12 to I was about 14, and then by about 1994, I got out of it and never did anything again until 2018, where 2018 seems to be a date that crops up a lot, where
people say, oh, in 2018, I got back into it. So we've got a theory that there's some kind of twintail comic flew over the planet and reactivated something inside our brains or something like that in 2018. But either way, that was the point that I saw the boroughs and badges figures.
I'm sure you've seen those and I got that game and I started playing it with my daughter and she loved it. I painted those and slowly but surely, you know, end up getting more things, getting into more games, painting more stuff. But I never shared any images of anything I'd painted until I'd joined the Bedroom Battlefields Discord. I'd never put anything online, partly, like I say, having any social media accounts. So
therefore, where would I show them? But other than to, you know, friends and family, it was all behind closed doors and there was a sense of it being, well, I don't think they're probably painted particularly well. And of course, that might be true. But it's the fact that they're painted in the first place, that's people want to see.
And when you share a painted model, no matter the standard of that paint job, what almost 99 % of people in our communities want to see is, oh, that's a brilliant model. I like how you painted it. I love your choice of colors. It looks fantastic. It really come alive. Every single painted model looks better than every single gray model. That's my theory. And just to see paint on
models and inspire people. And actually, I've found it a great motivator to share things that, you know, that I'm doing. And I've not ever had any feedback to make me feel like, oh, maybe I should have made that look better before I shared it. It's almost always positive. And anyone who gives you any sort of a tip, it will be very politely phrased. And oh, that looks fantastic.
One thing you could do, if you're interested, is do this to it, but it's a bit more work and it's not for everyone. Those kind of comments. And it's like, I really appreciate that. Really warm welcome, because it is daunting to show stuff. And if you look at Instagram, it's a big competition. But you look on these communities, it's not it's, it's much more about just enjoying the models and enjoying the hobby together.
Yep. Now, that's a good point. I think people get sort of, or they feel like you say, they feel like, oh, well, at the, we've got like a heavy lead channel on our discord. Maybe they presume that it's only
for top painters. Well, it's not the case. It's like, just show your stuff, you know, doesn't matter what level you are, you're just starting out, you know, you got your kids painting or whatever, just show it because I think people would be really encouraging. Firstly, and like you say, they offer tips or whatever. And,
you know, it's always going to start somewhere. So like yourself, you started, you got back in 2018, and got back into the hobby, you felt more comfortable, you know, showing your pictures of your models with the guys on the, on the discord there, which is
really great to see and great to hear. And it can only just grow from there, because you're, you're getting feedback, or you're getting encouragement, and you're seeing other people's painted works, and you're starting to get more motivated to, you know, to, to better yourself in your hobby, which is great. That also, it's another great segue, because we, we do our own painting classes together through Discord,
don't we? We do, we do, which I've really enjoyed. And actually, what I've found really beneficial from that is being able to take things that I thought were true, and things that I thought were, I was, that I was limited by. So the parameters that I thought existed, and, and using your expertise to try and say to me, no, those aren't necessarily your limitations. These
are things that you can do. I think that's what a good teacher can do is they can open up the possibilities of your potential, and they can actually take the lid off, rather than say, I'm going to help you reach the lid. They're going to say, no, there is no lid. Don't
worry about that. You can get you beyond that. I think that the standard of painting on some of the figures that I've done as a result of your lessons is definitely significantly better. But it also, I haven't felt daunted by this slightly bizarre sense of the concern about doing a paint job on a model you like that's of an appropriate
standard to befit the model. There's something about the artistry that the sculptor has put in, and then you have to do the rest. It's quite an unusual thing, really, as an art form that you are taking someone's art and then completing it. Never would you buy a painting for your home and then find that you've got to do
the rest on it. You know, or a film that, you know, oh, it's the latest Martin Scorsese film, but the final 20 minutes is missing, so you're going to have to make it yourself on your phone. You know, there isn't, those things don't exist. So it's quite an unusual experience. And sometimes I think feeling overwhelmed by the sense of duty that you have to paint something to a
standard that is appropriate. And I do think that the, and it will have always been the case, but the studio scheme paintwork that you get that's there to inspire you can equally be quite
intimidating, quite frightening. And I think the painting lessons have really helped me, A, with the technical side of the painting, the actual practical technical side, but I think massively with the psychological barrier of getting started, putting something into it, seeing what you can do.
You know, the ones that I've just done now, these May Queens that you've shown me how to do these very light white dresses that would almost be semi -transparent so that there's flesh tones that you can slightly see where skin is pressed against it. I'm really pleased with how
they're coming together. But when I saw the studio scheme for those, the reason I bought those models was also the reason that those models sat there unpainted for 12 months. So the very same inspiration also became perspiration. You know, and I think that it was absolutely key to me to be able to access that mentoring thing. I don't think that people need mentoring and coaching,
you know, generally in life. And the best companies and the best, you know, recognize the fact that professionals need that. And everyone needs to learn from everyone else. And learning is not something that just you do once. But yeah, now the fact that lessons to be absolutely really, really useful, but also incredibly enjoyable as well, and really look forward to them. No,
that's good, mate. Yeah, I think you did really well, because I thought that was quite an intimidating technique. And to be honest, I never have done that before. I've never done like that kind of technique before. I can see the guys who do it on certain miniatures they're painting or whatever. And I know I can see the process, but I've never done it myself and I had
never had the model to do it. So it was really good for me. It's great for you. I'm glad that you sort of found some, you know, found a practical way and easy way of doing it to achieve that effect. And it wasn't so complicated. It's only like just two colors, really, wasn't it? You know, two or three, that's all we had. So that's two or three paints. And you could achieve that just through a certain process
of, you know, from start to finish. And that way you could practice painting those maidens like that. And I think that looked really nice, mate. So I've seen progress on Discord there. So well done to you for sticking in there. Thank you. I've just got to get them finished now. But yeah, they are coming together. And I think that it's so lovely, isn't it, when you see something that you've put off for whatever
reason. I've just actually had, just arrived on Saturday morning, a Green Knight model, I bought off Gaines Workshop. The first thing I bought off Gaines Workshop since 1994. And it arrived and it looked absolutely fantastic. I mean, it's an absolute master's class in Perry Brothers sculpting, isn't it? And it's so wonderful. But
again, that's one of those ones. And you look at that Mike McVeigh job with those hands, those freehand curlicues all across, all the barting and everything. And it's, it would be very tempting to say, I'll paint that one day. But I want to paint that this year, you know, that's, that's, because putting it off, what's the value in that? When I can get so much enjoyment and joy from doing it, doing it now. And
you can just take your time with it. You know, it's like a centerpiece for your collection. So you can just take it just easy, just take it step by step, just take it easy, painting it and then sort of just watch it grow and, you know, develop over time. Yeah, it's great. It's a really good thing that's
made to order. It's got people sort of really excited about, you know, buying those old relics that you could, you couldn't afford or couldn't get when you were younger. But now they're sort of remastered if you like, you know, in new molds, new materials, maybe new metals they're using. Yeah, this was metal and it was 25 pounds, which I think is not bad. That's
pretty good. Yeah, I was happy with that. I mean, it was more money than, you know, I'd normally pay, but for a one off, I thought, yeah, that's all right. It's certainly a lot cheaper than you buy on the second hand market. It's brand new and a really crispy cast and there's no
extra flash on it. It looks really good, which I did actually half wonder, you know, how many people do they employ at their factory who are skilled metal casters? Because when was the last time they made metal models? I don't really know, but I presume they don't make many of them. But then they've come out well. So,
you know, they've fair play to them. They've done a good job on it. And they've been respectful of their heritage, which is possibly one of the things that people get a little bit riled about whether they are respectful of their heritage. But I think ultimately they've been trying to make money and sell more stuff. I mean, that's why Warhammer exists, doesn't it, to sell
more figures. You know, when you really step back a bit, sometimes we can all get a bit annoyed about them being a private company wanting to make money. But it's always ever been the case, hasn't it? Yeah. So now, talking about Warhammer, you attended Big Warhammer Day. Now, is this something that correlates with the Royal
Org? Sort of. So, yeah, I mean, this is kind of, this is a very, very nice circular conversation, because it all roads lead back to playing Warhammer. And this is where it all began. And what happened is we last year were intending in the Bedroom Battlefield community to try and do a bit of a meetup and go to bring out your lead. And it didn't come to pass. We didn't really properly
arrange anything. And it didn't go, a couple of people went independently, but we didn't do a meetup or anything. But one of our community members, Jason, he's got these absolutely beautiful, enormous Alcan Goblin and Empire armies, about 8 ,000, 9 ,000 points of each, just, you know, serious stuff. And it's spectacular. A lot of it is perimenaches in the Empire range, a lot
of historical figures. He's got a lot of the Lord of the Rings figures in the Orc range. So it's all got that kind of quite realistic sort of look to it. It's not your Kev Adams vibe. It's more of a kind of late 90s or 2000s kind of look to it. And
it's absolutely stunning. And what Jason's done is not only been, you know, amazingly prolific in the amount of stuff he's painted, but he's also, he arranges games at his home and he invites people in, he teaches people the games. He's a an absolute ambassador for the hobby, you know, very much in the way that you've got people like Chris and Calum on the Manowar side of things. You know, trying to get more
people into doing it. And Joe Jason brought up this huge setup. We hired the Village Hall where I live in the Midlands in England. And Jason lives in the south. And then we had another guy, Ed, who's in our community, who lives on the south coast. And Luke, who lives up near Sheffield. And we all came down to the Village Hall on Saturday.
We were there for about nine or 10 hours, played this enormous game of 15 foot by six foot table, four player game. And it was a huge baggage train ambush. So the Empire would deploy it along this road, and then the Orcs were on them. And Jason had devised the whole scenario. There was twists and turns in there. We did magic item drafting using the fourth edition magic set, and spell
drafting as well. And we used the sixth edition rules for speed of play, really, more than anything else. We wanted something that, so Jason was saying, though, I think this is probably the best rule set for a big, big, big game, because it keeps it kind of simple. But we have, for example, on there, there's three steam tanks, two giants, three giants, you know, it was serious. And that's even before the
reinforcements arrived. But it was brilliant. And, you know, just an amazing day. It was the first time I'd played Warhammer in 30 years. The first time I'd ever played it properly, I think, because I think I'd probably only actually played it as a lot of kids our age would have done when they were, you know, young teens would have played it sort of not
properly and just fumbled through a bit. This was a proper setup, but at the same time not overwhelming. The mechanics of it kind of came back. We were, I mean, very much guided by Jason. He curated the whole thing and the actors as Game Master as well as playing. You know, he came and set it all up in the morning, packed it all the way in the evening. You know, it took like an hour and a half to set up and
an hour and a half to pack away. But, you know, the spectacle of it was absolutely worth it. And it really did tick all those white dwarf boxes. You know, you just looked at it and just go, wow, this is actually real. And I think just the idea of it's the genesis of why to do it sits in the same place as the Royal Oak. It's about saying, okay, we're enjoying the collecting,
we're enjoying the painting, enjoying the hobbying. We've met people, but actually how can we extend meeting these people and turn it into something more? And, you know, all three of those guys, I only met through the Discord server. They're not people that I'd ever would have met before in real life. And actually, you know, we are a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche of a
niche, aren't we? We're a tiny number of us. You know, I was actually thinking to myself, I was driving home from work yesterday, I wonder if that was the biggest game of Warhammer that's been played in England in 2024. It wouldn't surprise me. You know, and he's just like, actually, this is pretty cool, isn't it? You know, I know there's people getting back into the old world, and that's brilliant.
But to see something, and it also had those homebrew elements, you know, there was things from the Warhammer ancients game, there's things from Warhammer. You know, it was, there weren't point restrictions, I don't know, I mean, I say nominally about 8000 points, but it wasn't balanced. It was a proper Rick Priestley -esque, Gervis Johnson -esque type scenario of just, this is the game, this is the story, this is what's
happening. And yeah, absolutely amazing. So such an experience and so brilliant. And I can't wait to do the next one. That sounds amazing. Did you actually get to finish the game? Well, no, in a sense, because we had a series of, we did four turns over about nine hours. So yeah, quite slow going, but brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I mean, we must have had about 40 units each. So
yeah, we didn't. However, the scenario set up that for each baggage train that got off the board, that was a victory point for each baggage train that got raided, that was a victory point to the orcs, and for any baggage train that was destroyed, that was like a, you know, net zero, no one gets anything from that. You've denied an opportunity for a
point, but you don't get any points back. And it came down to the final roll of the dice, which was absolutely amazing. So we've got no baggage trains off the board. Two of them have been destroyed, wiped out. And then we had this final wagon that was actually like a war wagon, had eight crossbowmen in it, and seven of them, it was
surrounded by 42 black orcs. They'd lapped around and lapped around, lapped around 42 of them on these seven guys. Six of them got killed. And then the final roll of the dice was a leadership test on the final guy, and he rolled one under his leadership and survived. But had it gone to another turn, it would have been
absolutely desesimated. So yeah, nominally, I think in a way, it felt like an empire win, but those orcs were on them. And they were absolutely swarming the board. So yeah, it was they weren't getting out of that valley alive, if we'd have played to the end, I'm sure of that. But yeah, absolutely brilliant. And again, it didn't really felt like it didn't matter who won or who lost it. It
was all very narrative. And we were all trying, but at the same time, we weren't worried by it. And the best moments, the most memorable were all the ridiculous dice rolls and the stupid spells and the bad luck and all the stuff that Warhammer can bring,
not the balance and the tournament and so on. I know a lot of people are quite dismissive of sixth edition, because they feel like it was the start of the formalization of it as being very much a game
rather than a role playing narrative experience. But I but Jason and I were talking and saying, actually, if you take the game, if you take the rules as an efficient set of rules, and then apply them with a open narrative mindset, you end up with the best of both worlds really. Whereas if you'd have used a third edition Warhammer, it probably would have just been untenable, because it's so complicated. That's right. Yeah,
it's wonderful. Wow, that's great. And I thought you used fourth edition magic, which is quite interesting. Yeah, and that was purely because it's so much more fun than just rolling some dice and choosing some spells out of a book. The act of, we were bluffing on things, we had the dismiss spell thing came up a few times, and we were pretending to add power cards to it, but not
really and all this kind of stuff. And people were thinking that we've got more cards than we've got, and how many spells we're going to cast. I mean, most of the spells went horribly wrong and didn't work at all. But again, it was like, it was the game within the game thing that everyone likes about the card system, or
not everyone, but I think it's ace. It feels like you're being a magician for a turn, rather than just doing another shooting attack or something. And you're not just buffing the army as a kind of planned way. I mean, basically anything can go wrong. And so all, and I really like that about how you know, all your strategy in the world and all the tactics go out window when everything goes wrong.
Actually, that's that makes things fantastic. And very importantly, and the magic drafting first card at the pack, crown of command. Oh, beautiful. So that year. So, you know, and that felt like Providence at the very start, you just like, okay, this is all going to work. So I don't think we ever called it into question
because you just sat miles away from everyone. Now that reminds me, Mark, you did actually draft all the items, which is a really good topic. I think that's that really changed everything for me. Once I once David told me about that, I don't know whether it was in our first interview on the crown of command, like episode one. Yeah, he told me about drafting and Dave's actually the guy who set up our discord for
us for crown of command. So things have that community there. It's been wonderful. But yeah, he told me about drafting. I thought bloody hell, that's a good idea. I never thought of that because otherwise you get that kind of mirror magic
guidance. I've got the black amulet, you've got the black amulet, he's got the black Gemina, he's got the black Gemina, I've got the hydro sword, oh, you've got the hydro sword, you know, it's always this how many of these things exist. Where do you get them? Like the local asda? Yeah,
exactly. It's quite important, isn't it, for the narrative and the story of warhammer to be able to say, this is this character and he has this thing, you know, that was that was the thing that felt so exciting when when you first got into that. I'll be like, oh, wow, this guy and he can do this. The idea of being able to put all those cards on anyone and make the sort of make
your own stuff. Yeah, it's cool, but you can abuse it. And I think the drafting really rains in it's really good. Yeah, we love it. It really revolutionized everything for me for drafting. And luckily, everybody who's who I played with here in Japan are all on board with it. So that's great. I enjoyed as well. Yeah, I think did you play the game last last weekend? Was your big? Yeah, this Saturday just gone.
Yeah. Okay, so we play the 13th, you played the previous weekend, didn't you play the previous weekend with one renaissance, which is basically the fourth edition rules, magic, but then sort of just slightly modernize and tweak tier in there, which the guy which we all enjoy playing because it's fourth edition asking for me to play fourth edition or fifth edition straight can sometimes be a bit of
a stretch, even though they'll do it. But I think renaissance kind of just bridges the gaps between certain things. And it's kind of like a modernized army books and rulebook and that kind of thing. So people feel more cool. Which is great. I mean, I still I still feel like playing fourth edition to me. So I don't really see the difference. But yeah, we did the drafting,
we played Empire vs. Orgen Goblins as well. In a big game, for me, I prefer smaller games, personally, like 1500 points is a really nice sweet spot for me 2000 points, maybe max. But we played 4000 points aside. But of course, no items. So we had, you know, the whole width of the table only six by four, four of figures. And it was wonderful. It
was really good to see and had good frames here. It was one of my it was probably the pinnacle, I'd say, of my gaming career so far that day was so much excellent with those guys, you know, going for lunch, going to have a dinner, you know, having a few drinks, playing until midnight and then crashing. And then actually finishing the game, like including it to the end. And
yeah, it was really, really fun, really enjoyed it. But it was kind of, for me, looking at Wellington's Empire Army, it's like, well, this is just out of like White Dwarf magazine, the early fourth edition chronicles of war, you know, the old battle reports from White Dwarf always had like Empire vs. Orgen Goblins has been one of my dream kind of matchups, you know, and we finally did
it. And yeah, yeah, it's almost like you say like 30 years in the making, you know, of realizing the hobby, never having the opportunity of doing anything like that. It just seemed impossible then, you know, earning all those miniatures, painting everything, having another person to, you know, to enjoy that with you. But now it's all possible because we have been doing this for 30 odd years, you know. Yeah.
And I think, you know, the thing that is probably the elephant in the room when you're a kid and you're looking at White Dwarf is it didn't really sort of, it didn't really process the fact that these were professionally painted armies by people whose full time job it was to paint them they had them in their studio, they put them on as battle reports to create
content for a magazine. I mean, of course it was going to look spectacular and it was going to look amazing. But sometimes I think you look at your own stuff, I haven't got everything I need. And that's the worst mistake I think I made as a kid is thinking that I didn't yet have the things I needed to have to enjoy myself. And I think that yes, so called a counterpoint to that idea of building up
to be able to do something I absolutely agree. It's amazing to be able to do it. But also I would actively encourage everyone to say, but while you're getting there, play with the smaller armies, play skirmishes, play this, play that, you know, just kind of make sure that you're kind of building up to that point because actually that's the motivation to build up to that big point, isn't it, of having all those little
interactions as you go along. And yeah, no, I think that I think that the idea of doing more of this is just so exciting, you know, just I'm so enthused by what what could be. And it's all with old stuff and, you know, old rules and people I've met. And, you know, all of it kind of feels like it's come back full circle and almost like completing the piece of the puzzle that was
never there. When I was 13 or 14, that made me go, I'll do something else. Is it just wasn't, you know, we started off at secondary school, everyone was into war have a really popular and hero quest and all these kind of things. And then by about, you know, the third year into secondary school, it was kind of on the wane. And
that that that was that critical mass thing. And I know that we are a small number of people, but through things like discord and the communities and the podcasts and so on, we've never been more connected and we've never been more able to see each other. I think the only thing that's never going to be a never going to go away, the problem is physical
distance. But for them for things like smaller games, you know, I played with Cam on Manawar and, you know, he's the other side of the planet. And that was brilliant. It worked really well. Yeah. So, you know, we can still get you fixed, can't you with your remote gaming and
where you can. I'd urge anyone to, if they see a physical event going on, think about attending, if they see some things or arranging some of themselves and hosting it. And, you know, the amount that I've got out of sort of being the person who said, oh, okay, I'll try and arrange that. And I'm very much credit to Jason for being the driving
force behind this one. But, you know, whether that's the Royal Orch or this day, you know, yes, it is a lot to do. And it's more than more than just sitting back and not doing anything. But the, the richness and the rewards that you get back, you know, pay yourself back in dividends. Absolutely. So we sort of briefly touched on your history when you were about 12 years old, you discovered
the hobby. Can you sort of elaborate more about that? How it actually happened? Yeah, I was probably a little bit younger than that. So it was about 12, I think, when I got Warhammer. I was about 10, I think, when I got HeroQuest. So HeroQuest for Christmas, the year that probably most people got HeroQuest for Christmas type of thing. So I was about 19, 19, 1989, something like that. I
was about nine or 10. I can't remember the exact year. And I don't know if I got it the first year it came out, but I certainly got it for Christmas. And it was, yeah, it was on Telly, all the adverts and everything like that. So up to that point, I'd liked, you know, I've got loads of board games, and that was something that I was quite interested in, and, you know, Lego, you
know, those kind of toys, really. I liked stuff that was a bit fancy -ish books and so on. But, you know, not really any sense of knowing anything about whether that was role -playing or certainly not war gaming, no kind of concept of that whatsoever. So very much that HeroQuest gateway. And then you get the little leaflet in there, Games Workshop or what's that, and, you know, start seeing
things. And then the next year, so that would, yeah, I think that would have been probably the Christmas I was 10 or 11, 10 perhaps. And then it was when I went to secondary school, when I just turned 11, that then I started there, and there was just all these new kids who, you know, been to other primary schools
that you meet, and a lot of them were into it. And a lot of the, a lot of them were also playing Warhammer, which was the thing that I knew existed, because I'd seen the little leaflet in catalog, but I didn't really know anything much more about it. I just assumed it was something that was really complicated and probably, I've got a feeling it even had like a sort of suggested age range or
something like that on the leaflet. That seems to be a memory that sticks in my mind. And this idea that HeroQuest was kind of, you know, 10 plus and Warhammer was maybe for 13 or 14 year olds or so on. But, yeah, talking to people
there, that would have been third edition time. My friends had the third edition rule books, some of them have got armies, and maybe someone had a really nice undead army and a Skaven army and just seeing all these kind of things, probably relatively small
armies, but, you know, people had stuff. There wasn't anywhere in the town I grew up that you could buy stuff initially, but then a small shop opened up that was selling Citadel miniatures alongside other toys and bits and bobs and model kits and so on. And we would go into Birmingham on the train and go to the games workshop there and buy things. So it sort of just gradually by a period of osmosis
just getting into it. I can't really remember exactly when I got first white dwarf because I was looking at other people's issues. So it all becomes a bit blurry, doesn't as to which was the first one I saw versus which was the one I bought. It would have been round about, I mean, basically it was pretty much at the point that the new fourth edition was coming out that
I started getting seriously interested in it. And then realised that if I asked for the fourth edition box set in 1992 for Christmas, then that would give me the bulk of what I needed to start a high old family, which is what I was interested in. So that worked really well. I think that box set way of doing things was genius
really. I'm not surprised that they did it because the success they will have had with the Milton Bradley games of realising that if you can get a box and you can get that box into mainstream retailers, then you've kind of put people in. So yeah, got that box set, painted up the spearmen and
the archers. Probably not very well, but okay. I remember selling the goblins to a friend for like something absolutely ridiculous, like £2 .50 for all of them or something like that. Absolutely insane. On the basis that I just thought, well, and that, but at the time I remember thinking afterwards, I was stupid, I should have sold
them for more money. But of course, that meant that he would then play with them and he painted them. And he bought some more figures so then you had an opponent. So in some ways, actually, it's a good idea to give them away and actually create more of an opportunity to play. So yeah, we were playing that. I bought Man of War when that came out. Again, didn't really play it very much. I bought a couple of the
dwarf ships. I bought the 40k second edition box set. Didn't really play that very much, bought a couple of Space Wolves and the Space Wolves book. And then kind of come 1994, all of it had been sat on the shelf probably untouched for six months. And it all just went in the paper, sold it secondhand for whatever I got for it. I think okay money, actually. But I don't know what spent
the money on. I think I bought a bike or something. But you know, it was, it just felt like it kind of came and it went in actually a very short amount of time, to be honest. To some extent, I regret it. But at the same time, I think, well, I did do it. That was what I felt at the time. I
wasn't obviously massively interested. And then later in life, there's just this little bit of a moment of recognition of thinking, oh, that's actually, that was pretty good. I enjoyed that. And thinking back to it and thinking about why I enjoyed it and what it gave me. And, you know, in a period where, you know, I had a personal circumstances, my
brother died when I was 10. And, you know, I think that going into that world and sort of immersing myself in that fantasy world was something quite valuable to me at the time. And then maybe by the time I was about 14, I was starting to perhaps recover a little bit from that. And then becoming maybe, I don't know, just wanting to do things that are different. And sort of saw that as being
a bit of an introspective hobby. And then wanting to do something that was more outward looking. But yeah, then just as I got older, I kind of realized that actually, my true passions really are in those kind of spaces, the storytelling and the narrative and the creating the world and playing the world and exploring it. And just the wonder of it all. And, and yeah, it's all a bit silly, but of course, it's
a bit silly. That's, that's okay. And I do think that whenever I probably look slightly over my shoulder and saw anything GWN or as an older teen, or in my early 20s, what I would have seen would have been the grim, dark, you know, tough exterior, the look that doesn't appeal to me, the stuff that personally doesn't doesn't say anything
to me. I want to see bright green, you know, grassy fields with brightly painted models on, rather than a kind of grim, dark, tough world out there. You know, it's and I think that speaks to the escapism probably, you know, at that time, I enjoyed, I enjoyed the silliness of it, I enjoyed the jokes, and I enjoyed the bright colors,
and I enjoyed the cartooniness of it. And yeah, that would have been an age thing, but it probably would have been circumstantial as well of wanting to find something that was kind of fun and happy and light, but at the same time imaginative and, and exciting. So yeah, it's, it's sort of just, I think just lodged there in my brain and just
stayed there. And whatever that impetus was in 2018 to, to look or to see something, again, I can't remember what that is, but that coming back to it thing, it's so significant, the amount of people who return to something, whether they move back to where they grew up, or they do something, there's a point in your life where there's this concept of things becoming wanting to return and
wanting to take comfort in that nostalgia. And,
you know, and it's been, it's been brilliant. I've loved every minute of getting back into it, and it's, it's been great for me, it provides, you know, that opportunity to have some, some quiet time and get into that flow state when you're doing things, but it also gives you the opportunity to dream about things, you know, you might be stuck in a traffic jam, but you can be thinking about these imaginary worlds
and what you might do in them. And I don't know, there's something the childlike wonder has come back and it's, yeah, I'm loving it. Oh, that's wonderful, man. I'm really glad you found the hobby again. And like I said, it's, you know, you may not know, or how, remember how you got back into it, but at least
you got back into it. And you're really, really in a good, good space in a good place, you know, reconnecting with people, making it a social connection as well, through Discord and then, you know, meeting up with your friends and ordered to play games and actually playing your fully, you know, maybe your first and fully fledged game of Warhammer, which is pretty amazing. Yeah,
it's been brilliant. I mean, I've been playing other games, like smaller skirmish games and things like that, which I've really enjoyed. And like I say, when I first got back in with the burrows and badges, my oldest daughter was really keen on it. I mean, she was about 11 at the time and she's 17 now. So she's a bit less interested. But you know, she's still all human me. And
actually, do you know what I saw the other day? She's doing her A -levels at the moment. So she's literally got, you know, a few weeks left and she's done with high school. And it's really busy. And she's got in the end of her bed, it's probably up there now, the burrows and badges book, and she's got a piece of paper in there. And she was writing herself a little warband list. And it's like, she's just doing
that. And it's escapism. She's thinking, I like that when I was 11. I enjoy doing that, you know, I enjoyed, and she's, she's going back to something that brings her comfort and brings her enjoyment. That's amazing. I would love to see more, more girls or women into wargaming. I know they're out there.
Yeah. Something that mainly women attracted to the painting and the hobby side of things, which I totally get, you know, the artistic side of things. But I've heard of burrows and badges. I've never played it. I saw it that it got, I think it was voted number one as the number one wargame or rule set for the wargames illustrated or which would. Yeah, that's right. It's actually a really good
little rule set. It works really well. I mean, yeah, my oldest daughter, she absolutely takes, I think I've never won. I think she's beat me about 18 times. She's completely ruthless. But then she is also, I mean, my younger daughter, she's very artistic. She loves to paint. She loves to draw. She, you know, I'm trying to get her into miniature
painting, but she won't do it. But the stuff that she can, she can draw, she's 40. She's a highly skilled artist. She's brilliant. But yeah, my oldest daughter, she's much more into video games and she's, you know, she knows, she's, you know, could play all these games and knows exactly how many hit points and percentages, chances she's got of winning on anything. She's, she's a tactician. Absolutely. Whereas I'm not, I'm
useless about, I don't care. I, some of the best games I've ever played, I've lost. So, yeah, me too. For her to enjoy winning and me to enjoy the spectacle of it all. But yeah, no, it's, you're right about the diversity and it would be nice to see more, more girls and women into the, into the
hobby. And I think a lot of it comes from being honest, I do think the gateway of, and I still think, I think it's, you know, the gateway of the, the, the public image of the GW stuff, you know, it's very highly stylized, the 40k stuff, the age of Sigma stuff, you know, if that's your aesthetic and you love it, brilliant, it's going to
totally hook you in, but it's not for everyone. And I think actually when, if you expose people to the wider world of all that, what's out there, you know, some brilliant stuff, one of the schools I work at is a girls school and help run a board game club there on a Friday lunchtime. I was talking to some of the girls at the school there and telling them a bit about Frostgrave and that really ticked their boxes. That
sounded really interesting. They liked the look of it. They liked the sound of it. You know, it sounded like something that they would very happily read books set in that world and, and want to explore in that world. And, you know, there are games out there with an aesthetic that probably is less macho, but the GW stuff is pretty, it's pretty hard and it's pretty masculine in my view. And that will put some people
off. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I totally agree. Yeah. The diversity in your hobby is really important as in terms of like different genres, different styles, barriers and badges, badges is its own very unique thing. Yep. Great to see it's so successful. I've seen other ones where there's sort of like these rat little mouse or mice
or rat people. I can't remember what it's called now, but I can see, yeah, there's different games that have really appealed to certain types of people, especially girls when they see all those little cutesy type things. What was the other one I played that I've got? It's like, it's like golden axe, but it's like all these chibi type characters in there. Okay,
right. That's cool. From Seamon that was years and years and years ago. But yeah, those those licenses, those kind of IPs are really popular with everybody because it's it all tracked everybody, you know, yeah, absolutely. The the geek guys, the geek girls and that kind of thing. And yeah, it's really fun. But any outmark, I know you're pressed for time mate for
today. I know you've got some work pressing work to get on with, but I really want to set my appreciation to yourself for taking the time to come talk to us. And and yeah, giving us some really great insights in in your, you know, your journey into into the hobby and, you know, your current state in the hobby. And mate, we'll definitely get you back on to talk about
some different topics in the future, I'm sure. Yeah, be fantastic. And I just want to say to anyone listening, if you want to see pictures of the games day that we did the big 8000 point orcs and goblin stuff, if you go on the bedroom battlefields discord, if you join that, I mean,
everyone's very welcome to join that as well. So if you're a listener and maybe a discord member on the crown of command one hop on over to the bedroom battlefields one as well, because, you know, there's a lot of crossover, but but they're the same community. So, you know, that I think you'll get value from being a member of both, I certainly do. And there's pictures and stuff
over there. But also, I've just sent Matthew a battle report that all four of us have written up who played very much in the sort of style of a white draw battle report. And that's Matthew's going to host that on his bedroom
battlefields .com site. And if I get some time at some point one evening, I might design it up because to look in a kind of white dwarf esk style and make that available as PDF to people as well, if they're interested in seeing it in there. And they kind of look and feel a bit of the hero hammer magazine style look to it. Right. Okay, that sounds really good. And please go and check out the bedroom battle bedroom
or battlefields podcast that Matthew hosts. It's a really, really entertaining podcast. So I'll leave links for that below in the show notes along with the discord link as well. So look again, Mark, thank you again for today. I'm sure we'll have you back because, you know, you've got a wealth of ideas. You're very passionate about the hobby. And I'm sure there's something else we can we can tap
into and talk about in the future, mate. Wonderful. Thanks for having me on Josh. And thank you for your contribution and your podcast. No problem. My pleasure. Okay, mate, until next time, take care and we'll talk to you again soon.