The Epic Show with Mike Hobbs

Hello and welcome to a very special episode of The Chronicle men podcast because I have a very special guest and that special guest is Mike Holmes recognize that name from the nipples. And businesses podcast that was ran for like over a decade. I think with Neil shook the lead, the lead host and Mike join kneel at some point during the history of the podcast. They became really good friends as a result of it. Now Enjoyed immensely, listening to them to review books, or interview people.

Great way, they inspired me to do podcasting myself and talk about things that I was passionate about. During that time, Neal allowed like to indulge himself in massive epic show involving multiple guests. I can't Whitehurst from the poly versal game, and other podcasting contributions, and other big names in the, the Epic Space Marine or devic communities. So, I thought it'd be great to have my onto, still that epic. So we can indulge about our memories of MBA.

Our forces are collections. They were models all kinds of things but it actually turned into a passive massive sort. I'll be chat really in the end and we talked about lots of different things because like is, you know, He likes historical gaming games, he pretty much like any game, you know, any board game, you know that it's probably played it and he probably has it on the show. So find extensive collection of

things that he likes. But yeah I think I think he really enjoys reminiscing about the old days of mining Space Marine with his friends and I thought I'd just get him on to talk about it. So we had a great chat last almost two hours. So enjoy this ride along, Memory Lane again and we'll see you on the other side guys. Okay. Hello, Mike. Hello. Hello. Can you hear me? I can if you just give me one second. I just need to adjust. Sure. All right, my headset.

So it uses my bike? Yeah, no problem. Man. You just take your time. There we go. That's we better. Fantastic right. Thank you so much again for, you know, it's bending some time with me to talk to me today. It's an honor. It's right. It's my honor. I'm really nervous actually. It's like, it's like interviewing someone who's like a celebrity or something. Oh god. Well, I've been listening to you in the office so long to over 10 years. It's like it's really surreal

talking to you. Now in person. Well, you know, over the Internet kind of thing. Bedtime. Yeah, look mate. You know, you know I love to have you on. As many times I can to talk about epic, if you're more than willing and I'll be more than willing to talk about epic any time so that war gaming in general. So thank you. Well, I mean that's the thing cuz yeah I've got happy to come on and for boats and I'll be as often you want something well that happy. That's excellent. I thank you.

And so people who have never heard you or your voice or whatever. Could you please tell everybody about yourself and about your history? Oh God, but casting and I found I could take a quite long time, but that's fine. We got what? We got lots of time left. So go for it. Yeah, okay. So, hello. I'm Mike, I guess I'm best known for being one of the co-hosts on people's of Miniatures, which was a very long with an podcast

run by my very good mates, Neal shock and awe. the honor of being on, therefore, God, several years, five years, I think, at least night more than that, I think, yeah, it's a long time and they were just great because it meant that every every week or so, I get together with my best mate and we just chat and As part of that you know we got to talk to some

really clever people. So game's designers who I've been inspired by so forth and we talked about games and we reviewed stuff and we just fun I mean it was hard work for me or because he had to do all the hard work of editing the thing and you know making the sound good. I just stood up and talked But you're out there to allow, if I was free, I was easy. But yes, we did that. As well as that I've done playtesting.

I've been really lucky in my hobby. because I've always sort of become friends with people who design games manufacture, games manufacturer figures and so forth. And that sort of led me done various dark Alleyways because I'm a curious person and so I guess probably from a hobby perspective. My biggest influence was a guy called do Thornhill. Who lived on the corner for me. And he became friend, recommending, work years ago.

And we got chatting about Pas because I was just sort of back into it then, Yeah, we just become very firm friends. And then he went off to learn. He was a postman originally, and then he decided to go off and learn how to become a sculptor. And from there, he founded, musketeer miniatures. And then from that, which then became from foot so many teachers and oh wow! And he's just, he pea a mold maker. He etranger Foundry became a

master mold maker there. Which I think has helped me be sculpting because he knew how to make figures. That would work in a mold and he's sort of basically set up his own little company. And from now I met the people of gripping Beast. Which is a so local gaming company manufacturing company based in the UK they do mostly sort of ancient someone will one stuff. So first, I became friends with them and I've got me into play

testing. I started doing some play testing with them for a World War One game, which Sort of came out and didn't come out. That was a game called The Great Wall, which was the first version of it was released by

warhammers follicle. I did not teach rejuve Bob broom and peaceful working on a supplement for that, which is going to be setting in so Palestine and and in Gallipoli, So I got involved into play testing for the first supplement for that, which is called Over the Top, which is written by a Frenchman called Alex Michelle. And I like the show then went on to be to design Saga. All right, and I got very heavily engaged with prove them on the side of the production

very early on. And basically spent about four years of my life just playing Saga until I can't take it no more. So job done. It's only so much of a great game you can play and it just consumer and and then yeah I'm from now I've got the me pause gig. I just yeah, I just been really lucky because, you know, I'm friendly with people like the chief out loud. He's which Cloud mix mix together and said you are a good friend over there might be an

applicant played with them. I'm friendly with Henry Hyde. We just a wonderful character in a wonderful influence on came and yeah and obviously they couldn't these guy's Alex. Um, and so bad people and other people like some must have her as well. I've done some play. Testing the sun must defer, who's written some historical games. So yeah, I just really had a Charmed Life. But at the base of it, that's right, that's yeah, exactly. Now can I ask, how did you first

get into epic? What was the origin story behind that? What do you want? The long version or the short version by give us a long version while we're here about startings its Liberty? Moses only Visalia, matted break and Neil with them have to go off our most looping of T. Now I'm not going to edit anything like this is all raw material here. I do not like not, not as professional as Neil. I'm afraid it's just you know you get you know, it comes as it

is basically. Yeah oh you may regret that right. Epic, I guess. The first thing is that I'm old. I've known in my mid-50s rapidly approaching I was, I was a ballplayer so I was in school and I was role playing. We are playing these newfangled things, like Dungeons dragons, and Rune, question traveler, and I decided I was winning a long-running campaign and I decided that would be great fun to have some big battles in there. I think it's probably cuz I was reading cold your novels at the

time. And so I was sort of looking around a way of incorporating, a large battle into a role-playing game. There's a shopping Cardiff. which I sort of for acquainted and talk to the guy and he went oh you should try this game and he handed me a little white box which had Warhammer the mass combat fantasy role-playing Which I thought I'll do his math battle combat and it's a

role-playing game. Perfect. So I bought that and I went home and read it and my players read it and we kind of liked it and then we worked out that we needed about 100 figures to player. And we had, you know, we had about 12 between us, you know, and it got put back in the cupboard and it stay there for a very very long time. and then I went to college to become a chef and then so I moved around for a bit and then and then we fast forward to about must have been about 19. 1990.

Yeah, I was 1990 and I became a chef. I've been looking away for 56 years. And I come back home to Cardiff. I'm sorry for saying, um, all the time. Again, Neal would just enter these out, he loved it, he loved anything on my own. I was just been paid and I was working in this hotel, Posh hotel and in those that you got paid by check with my dad to go

to a bank and cash it out. I went to the bank, got some money, I was walking up the street and Cardiff korsak no Street. And I noticed his shop called Games Workshop. Which I never knew about and these big band in the window and said, well Hammer, I thought, oh, that's the game. I used to play back in the day. and I walked in, and So, this was like a wet and windy, Thursday afternoon. The shop was dead apart from the manager. I was sort of looking around at

all these lovely figures. I don't know what she's getting, but set up a demo games through each of the big systems. And I'm one of them was all of these, little tiny, tiny little figures and little tanks and big robots. Can you guess what it is yet? And I just got, I was just mesmerized. Just absolutely never seen anything like you in my life. Chatham to the manager and he's ours. Offered to show me through the game. and, Well, she'll still be long half hour later.

I was working on the shop with the boxes first edition and the my arm, and some paints and some brushes and they sort of feeling that I didn't know why I had it my ability. I don't know why I did it but I was I was captivated. And it's that was first edition. So that was the the epic battles in the age of heresy. Is this wonderful hobby called 3D roleplay? Oh yeah, I remember that. Had that on their boxes to yeah, it's really wrong.

Yeah, I do still have a copy of the first edition space moon, but I bought back. And years ago just to get my collection. But after that, I bought the original depth as Titanic s, which was just going to up into and guy with who was the manager of the shop, who are became quite good, friends of many because I was one of the only people going in the shop. It was about his age. We started playing together quite a lot, and then capture

titanica came out. And I got that And then a little while afterwards, the new version came out, which was the classic second edition Space Marine. Where they've moved the thing. Forward 10,000 years into multi first century here. Yeah, and that just turned the whole thing upside down. You know, because we didn't just have Marines. Because in the first edition, you have tactical Marines. You a dry nose and you had and

Raiders and tightens. And now suddenly you had Oaks and Eldar and new screws are figures with, devastate was on them and assault Marines. And just one or two never really had enough to put together a Terminator Squad in that.

You've got tons of the things. and yeah that basically started me off I bought you know, I bought Renegades arms, Imperium spoke Scott Warlords or Lowe's started buying you know armies and I'm sure that the time note 29 years ago, they were the only Army's that I basically hung onto. So I've still got my original armies from from back in that day and and the original boxes of the game's battered and

bruised and well used. I'm saying I've sort of become a bit of a GW Fanboy. Never played. Never played war hammer, which is ironic because I was the only reason I can walk in the shopping at the time. Yeah. And I had a little flirtation move 40K. So I think at that time, this is the second edition 40K but just come out. So I moved on from Rogue Trader. I think I Remember by your shop metal Miniatures for that. And then there's games like Mighty Empires came out, which I loved.

And Manuel a few years later, which again is another games have managed to hold on to go over these years. I think my mother was my favorite table game ever. I just love it. Yeah, it's when in from there and then you know as I'm so from speaking to other people from this Eva the slow decline started with Titan Legions. It's just my phone, which is matter. I matter cause the fuse later epic 40,000 came out.

I'm not just basically was value of that was the last nail in the coffin because it changed the base sizes and change the Army lists and stuff. and so, basically sort of I was playing other games. I still carried on playing some that you w games of things are battlefleet gothic.

I really liked yeah, that was a bad it really until probably about 15 years ago when I had this Reawakening urge to play epic and I found the the net epic project, and I started playing there and I still like not as much as I want to. It's one of those games that comes out. Probably once a year and I mean, I'm a to get together and we'll play a few games currently, there's so many games out there that we're playing, it's just difficult to sort of try and

concentrate on one thing. So it's a, it's a much-loved thing, it is epic for me. And yeah, I always like to go back and I've still got a box of unpainted stuff, which I'm actually just looking at now. Gives her. Thank you. Somebody reawaken in the huge. I'm now currently sat with the Titans out, my desk. Like a big box of stuff is out. Wonderful, that's great.

Yes, I have I didn't really know that because I don't think I really got to hear how you got into the into Epic from the podcast from the bosom inches before. So it was nice just to. Yeah, just to, you know, he you recall how you first encountered epic? And it sort of just you know, became one of your most loved games. That's yeah, I think I'll think it is my, you know, it is a lot of these probably Rose tinted

glasses. But yeah, there is something very special about epic and I think people who play epic was will sort of realize that it was a time. It comes a time that aux are funny knowing where did you play your cards in the realization? That they're going to end up blowing each other up, fighting amongst themselves either? What's the on? Look, most the other arm just sort of looks on. And wouldn't it was going on?

Chaos here, I think. That's that's a really interesting point actually might because i-i've never when I when I played it because when I was about 17 18 with a friend of mine whose bit older than me and he used to play talks and he was

crazy about them. You know he had a massive walk Army by the end of the time we were playing and I played mainly blood Angel Marines because that was the stuff we got in the box at the original box in the second edition and I paint them red and I Tastes like them world in the Marines for my cows only

as well. So used to having to play in both both armies and I start with the cows Army and we're not when I when I when I think back at it now and I recently bought the warlord's box set, and I went through all the rules for the Orcs and read how many special rules I got so many social rules, you know, which is fantastic and so much flavor and so much identity to the control the Orcs. But then, recently, I'm sort of got the 40.

A segmentation itch. And I wanted to look at the the, the Codex for secondary channels and unfortunately have removed all that out of it. They're just talks are aux. There's nothing special about them. This is like, well, if you're a golf or your Bad Moon, it doesn't make any difference. And I thought well, that's a

real chefs are all shown. Yeah, I think yeah, I think second edition was kind of like the it's sort of had, it can't it kind of contained a lot of the like the old Hannah row. Traitor Elena. To definitely it was. Yeah. It was very flavorful and I need to the Army's all play completely differently. And again, that's something I really liked and that I still do like, so going back there you know, they a marine force will play completely differently to and held out for us.

It's not just a case of they just been reskinned just like doing stats. They they fundamentally played differently which just give me an excuse to go back and start collecting armies again. Which is probably not a good idea because I got most of them. Yeah, that's that's true. Yeah, yeah. You send me some photos and

you're an amazing collection. I'll have to make a little video for everybody to see that because yeah you've got a really huge orc Army. I'm very envious of how many spleen Rippers and all kinds of different. All the all the metal variant of vehicles. You have their include attachments and all the gardens

you got. So yeah, massive and I'd love to see your Yes. Me too because you got me really thinking about chaos this week when you said, you got a whole Chaos on these stuck away in some boxes and I thought, oh yeah, I've got, I'd love to play chaos again. Yeah, I would, I was quite a lot because when I said I kept hold all my arms, I lost two. I lost aldana lost chaos. But I managed to keep my biggest army was Dark Angels. I wanted my little ducky tools, and Imperial Guard.

Save my two Biggie's and I managed to hold on to my squat about my apart of my Gardens. I No, no, I kept all my Oaks. That's why I lost all my older. And I lost all the chaos that I had. So over the last few years, I've gone back to sort of looking around for take his chest, just to rebuild them and picked up the base of an Aldo Army 24 years ago. Which I love. We painted and tarted up and added two. You know, because you can never have enough.

So I did them and then last year, I think it was early part of last year, I picked up the chaos Army which was in a real State and it still isn't So now I'm going to dig that out and I'm gonna just start it up, I've got again in my, in my box of unpainted stuff which I must send you a photograph of it is like my Aladdin's cave, sixth time. I've no the chaos in there. And that's yeah, that's possible. I got our know as well, fold

your towel. And they are just piles and piles of extra stuff, which I actually, I actually got from an old bone from a friend of mine who I gained move, he turned around to me and went on. I found some epic stuff. Do you want it all right? Yeah. All right and he handed me this? Great. Yeah. Plus I got this box which is it's your patient Tokyo on. You said you know what a for is a four Sons Jakob? It's magic. They full size boxes about four inches deep.

So quite sizable box, you basically passed me this thing. And when I yeah, but he had to meet, I thought this is quite heavy. This is got some metal in it and opened it up, and it was pretty much full of mackerel, and I was just like, I can't take this off, you, I need to give you some money for his. No, no, no. You are, because he's sucking my desk for 20 years. So we argue chairman and I took it anyway and is all this wonderful stuff. He's got loads of foliage World

stuff in there. The green light. So they have loads of towel which is one of the Army's have never did back in the day and loads of other stuff. So I'm I'm going to try and get through there or at least skim off a good one. Then I added all of my stuff which I add and painted and the pot hardly closes. Now Which is hideous. So it's still about peaches the leather itch to do armies. Even after all this time, I still have it. Finish off, Mike. Have you actually finished an army though?

Like anybody who says they've been gendarme, he's a liar. There's always another, you know, you can get for ya. That's true. Yeah, my talking jewels I mean, I've got more than I'll ever need to play, but that's not the point because I haven't quite got the fourth chapter. Yeah, sure. Okay. Okay. So I thought, yeah, because I think it's swell idea, I got it out and when I took the photographs and I worked out, I missing 12 stands as one of the

Tactical companies. That's what you said, right? So yeah. Going to do those. And I thought I could probably do some more Scouts, but I like to change the scouts to the the, the later pattern ones. The, you know, cuz The ones I've used were old Imperial Guard figures. Because that's all you had back in 1980, okay, I did actually it. Did they actually make? So I did actually make Scout Miniatures did some. So when I pick 40 by camera.

Yeah, but I think 40K came out, and then they become, again, they redid a load of the molds and they but they release metal versions firms. Basically, in Scouts, which are basically the same as the the Figures, but many choice. There was a little bit of big scope, creep as well, between the soul of the metal figures that came out later for for epic Armageddon and the you nearly one but the Miniatures is so much nicer. They retooled all the managers

and they gorgeous. So I yeah, I probably go back. I'll finish the Tactical moving using notepad the classic first ones that I like to do. Some Scouts you. that soft matte ones and I think about you my box so that will do There's always stuff out there. Like save. I wanted you the chaos one. I'd really like to do a mechanic as Army. Just be like these days. Armies are like from there, they can update their Capital, he's as I'm not sort of really think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No topic is of never the dark rabbit hole. You, you can peek into, I have to warn you, it might cost you money. So yeah, their packets. At the thing, they did carry on with the Army lists. So you got all, you got Is that comes in there slam and all the extra stuff that didn't get included in the original game. And then and then again there is no topic Armageddon as well which again has similar Army lists.

So it's if you know if you got a itch to scratch and you want to just having this not from the classic period, You know this figures out there and there's rules are there for you to use. So it's worth. It's worth just peeking in the into that rabbit hole Josh and that comes with a full. Yeah, something I've never played like I really like it. Yeah. Now just saying I like that. Yeah. Yeah. He was talking about it. I know you were saying that you

and your your game partner. You want some like comes out, it comes in the box and you would just want to get on player. Which I really understand. Yeah. But it's working having a look at that are big and just looking at the turn sequence. Because you can, you can pretty much just take the tuna sequence. From that, from that epic and play it. We using all the rest of stuff. You got in space, really?

And that's really, I mean, I just do it now because the way the term works is completely differently and it gives you a completely different feel to the game. it's still lethal and Ivan gets blown up on the first term, but you know, you could just it just slightly different Yeah, it's like anything of anything your army don't get too attached to it because it could be used alone off the table and the first turn, the first dice roll.

You know, it doesn't matter how, how strong, how hard do you think it's going to be? Yeah, that's that's one of the wonderful things about everything in this in a sense, it's like anything is vulnerable. Yeah, it's well, I hardly ever used a Titans I mean, if you look at my photographs, you know, I have very few Titans could never use them. You know, ones I ever used was

war hounds. And I try to use them as just a Infantry. Because I just found whenever you put tighten on the table, okay? It just became a magnet for having to fire over there and just been pulled from this. It was a lot of vegetables to lose, you know. So I kept away from him I love Noah tighten too much back on my desk. Yeah, I found them to, in, in a recent games, my Gardens would just, you know, I've never played aux until now like Milan,

the last three games. But yeah, the guy gets can really sustain a lot of a lot of punishment. And they can just like, I say that they become this like this five magnets evidence, like shooting at that, all the big stuff is shooting at it and then the Infantry has got more chance of getting up and getting their hand in combat without having to worry about all the lanterns from the in, for this instance, when we're playing squats and that kind of thing.

So, Yeah, it is good. In that sense they are nice magnets for for for the big stuff on the up, on your opponent's side, to keep them preoccupied with while you're smaller staff and your vehicle's get into camera position and that kind of stuff. But you do want to have once I go down. Oh yeah, it's like a big advance and it can end the game pretty great. Yeah yeah, yeah. And usually we will Gardens, I'll just blow up and take out any changes perhaps to be

hanging around nearby them. Yeah yep yep all the debris and the explosions are so big that they yeah, they take out stuff around it and they need to be around stuff too because most of them have some kind of leadership bonus, where they, you know, things within a certain radius. Don't take my yeah. That's the the juxtaposition of it. You need to give every really close. Yeah. Well it goes, he's gonna go and they'll be a large hole where you are. Amused to see.

If you see that point my pills, I would be looking over the barricades going, but we do malc. Yeah, Army to use them. So yeah, there's you know when you're playing good question, I think. Well, when I was playing during Second Edition, I usually always took chaos. And I think the main reason why was because, you know, compared to Marines had had a lot more variation in units. It had a lot more exciting

stuff. You can take, you can take like minotaurs trolls, you know, the Beast of nergal or whatever they're called, lots of demons, lots of those, you know, they're all getting to a certain God and they had all those wonderful little Cars and I love, I love having cards and games. I just generally, like, I'm just attracted to games with have cards that can alter the battle during it. So the gift system was really cool and so I think I think cows were Rings. Yeah.

Well my favorites. Um, how about yourself man? I gives a toss up between Imperial guards and squats. If your guard I think always gave so too. so multi-level gaming because they had a lot of artillery, a lot of good entry and a lot of sort of Flyers that you could do Combined, our Ops shall be safe. The squatter great from because I had loads of bikes and their, their Titans were in.

So, tight, in the Years, big Titans, you know, you had these lovely big in the land ships, great fun, and cyclops's, and leviathans, and all them. So yeah, I think those are my two main ones Oaks like I enjoy playing because I have fun. Elder. I never really I never got the hang of Alder. She's which is why I went and bought on the ground meat, which I still haven't paid me yet. But it looks nice in the Box I want to play with those but yeah

anyway I didn't get along. It was was tearing it. Mom. Yeah, I've never never played just there was no tactics done. They just basically just charged used, try to use numbers to yeah, to overwhelm actually. Well, that's the only Army of ever really soldiers. My tuna darling. Because then like it, it's fun to paint. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I never eat lunch and I was, I was the latter one as well so I never really played them young because then With a 200 box that came out, I think I was just finishing up about back. I think that was the last box at the came out which yeah. yeah, I think that was probably just before you take him out and also painting coming to by painting and that kind of thing. What do you enjoy, painting? Well, which faction does? I've been a lot of stuff? I got a lot of games.

Recently, I've been looking at. I bought the new depth as iconic as when I came out a couple years ago. And I love just tightens because they literally are what I always imagined, what Titan should be you know, and I'm from there. I I sort of went down the idea of. Wouldn't it be fun to do something in the house? Heresy. I found out that it was good. New told me that Pita Ramos. Who is this little guy behind that Epic. Was working on a new game called

periodic Dominus or something. Yeah. Which was based there, it's a d-10 system is based in in the hotel, see so far right? That'll do I'm going to do, I'm going to do a bit of Horus heresy. Some, I bought a load of figures from the company called Vanguard. Which you very very nice to be say there's science fiction 6 mil. Science fiction models which make extra? Yeah, now that the data on their incredible.

So I decided I'd do the siege of Prospero which was one of the big bottles in the early part of the wholesale. See This is just because when I started doing the new new Titans, I was looking around for, for loyalist, Legions to use in my usual, you know, highly technical way of researching, this stuff of choosing the ones that got pretty colors on them. And there was this Legion, which is purple and white, my thought that look nice, I'll use them.

I started thinking about what? What do you mean I found out? They only really Took part in the few battles, one of them was siege of hospital when they fought on the thousand side. Because they're slightly chaotic ish, you know? Okay, that's interesting. So I can just see the boss Bo, so, it's do-si-do Prosper. I need some space walls and he

did some research. And I found out that sons of Horus also fought in that battle when holes was hadn't quite turned over, and the Titan Legion that he brought with him, was the ones that I come in the name. It's the classic sort of red and black one. What's your phone number? So I apologize. Yeah. So I think basically we started working on this big massive, great battles using Vanguard niches and the new adaptive Titanic is where the loyalists.

Titans are fighting on the chaos side and the chaos Titans are fighting on the loyalist side and the Spaceballs and the sons of Horus and the sisters of silence as always stuff going on. And it's just a mad project but I'm loving it. Just give me a chance to sort of play around with the new paint as well. So I've been playing around with using contrast paints on them.

So I've been doing the Thousand Suns B, EQ from a gold base and then painted over with a deep red contrast paint which looks amazing, absolutely amazing and take s and people think you're really clever but you got this golden ready color coming through. So yeah that's why I've been

really enjoying. Yeah paintin moment I've got never mad idea as well as you sort of circulating which is I thought one of the things I really like it's a historical game called Rommel which was written by some Mustafa and I was involved in the play test of it and it's a very high level. Game where basically these but it is paid on the grid. On each Square in the grid represents a kilometer squared.

And you can have three units in each Square, which represents the sort of 2015. And so it's actually supported 22. And I've been doing this for sort of World War Two. And I sort of thought wouldn't it be fun to do that? But use them with the Guard do. And because they do very nice there, most definitely not Orcs the called Skinner's. And I'm very nice once which is definitely not Space Marines. Oh dear God.

So I've got this idea sort of sat in my head that I do take was that and version of me using these big bases of the bases are 70 by 50 basis. Big Square rectangle, big rectangles. I thought was female Most definitely not epic figures on them. That would look pretty good. So yeah, so that's sort of in the back of my head at the moment. Obviously, once I finish my chaos, my chaos Army, and then get back to my High Elves Empire and dark L families for what

hammer. Yeah, I saw you Tweeting that on Twitter you're getting back into. Yeah. Then finally getting jobs all the time. I'm getting warmer. Yeah, before the dark times came and we weren't allowed to leave our houses. We've always been looking around for decent, sort of factors again to play and and then Matt Matt Slade, you and Grandpa games to only when one. Can we just play war hammer? Because if you play it with people, who aren't sort of into many magazine and a stupid, it's

actually a good game. So yeah, I wish Frozen of a mate of mine who used to run the shop pipes up and went oh I've got some armies in my garage if you want them, what do you find these people? Yeah, because I need to figure out. We forget my haven't played yet. That's good now. Talk about painting to because you mentioned painting with contrast.

Paints and I, and when I saw contract contrast pace and heard about, and I thought, actually, they'll be perfect for epic because, you know, you're generally using, you know, it will use in general using white primer for them anyway, and because they're so small and you're not sort of worried about too many details and they're not all that overly detailed anyway. Couple couple or two, or three base colors and you set.

So, so you found contrast paints to work really well across from various different epic Villages. Yeah, I mean, definitely for the thousand suns in the chaos stuff, contrasted quite interesting place. But there are good tool to have in your Arsenal, some say, but don't think they're going to fix everything. they, so I picked up the this game came out recently and I paint Illinois, Orcs, you can contrast And they were just fantastic because it just worked with my Imperial stuff.

I painted the classic old-fashioned way. So I think it's that they're useful, but don't think they're going to fix everything. So if you know, if you're doing Bloody Angels, then yeah. Perfect. The yeah, I think for a Rapid Marine Army where you you've literally got one color and then you just got on detail. Perfect for that. Yeah for vehicles. Yeah, I think we've going because what I think good over different base coats and I use them quite a lot.

Over over metallic base coats like Silvers and Golds and things. And that works really well. There's some codes are better than others. That means if he comes, we just awful. But they're definitely worth trying. Yeah. So, I mean, if if you're using, you'll be working on your, you will call me. Yeah, I probably wouldn't use it for the bodies because the paint aisle. I mean that there. Thinner, and their High pigmented. The vehicles are going to do me any good.

I think what I'll probably do for vehicles is. In fact, I'm going to try to collect custom work trucks for my, my, my sheltered shame of things. I haven't finished painting after them back in the day, I was looking at all, I've undercutting them black. I'm always thinking of his going through and paint it. Some of the panels in a white and then using a contrast over

them. Because you still get the black Kevin for me. And I think that I'll just add some sort of ramshackle and look at the, all the old stuff but yeah, definitely, definitely worth trying out. I probably do some see how you got my post. I mean, what I probably do if you're going to walk stuff, using contrast have a look on YouTube. For tutorials on painting, your planes from Imperial. A little skimpy. Me Alice. Because I'll probably give you some ideas.

Okay, are you use it? So, yeah, definitely worth it worth the try. Yeah. That it's a good. It's a good. Like, for people who have never tried epic and they're thinking about maybe, you know, trying it out and buying an army and that kind of thing and getting into it. It's 11 really positive thing about epic is that you could essentially paint a 3000, Point Army in a weekend if you really wanted to like it's it's not unachievable.

The scale is, it's beneficial in that in that sense where you can come, you can like my blood angels. I just got, you know, when I was When I was about 17, I'll just go to can of red spray and I just spread like obviously Prime to wipe blood, spray them all red. And then I just went in and just did some put some black paint on the boulders and didn't in chain mail, silver.

I mean, you didn't really have to do that anyway but you know, epic is very, you know, very generous in that sense that you can get away with a lot of stuff and that you'll never see on the table, you can just clearly identify. Okay, they're my Beans and they're my tactical Squad. Now this my tactics or Squad devastate the squad they got some kinda shoulder pad marking on them or something like that but yeah I think for painting. It's really I mean special movie

mommy's. I mean I when I did the the space walls which I painted in this or traditional way, you know, black and ducote. I've got some big dry brush

brushes, that's a word, which is sort of a big flat. cm long bristles, CM White And I just paint everything using those because, you know, basically I stuck them on Lolly sticks, speed on black and then just got a dark gray, and just did a massive great driver, show the whole lot with dark gray, and then got a lighter gray and just give up find the driver show the top and that's been pretty much done.

And that as you say, you just then all you got to do touch of the weather baltazar heating on the. I always pick the shoulder pad so I know which units go together. But yeah, that's it. That's that's officially pardoned. And use the same techniques for doing tanks. Global diverse suck on a wash. Maybe given the dry push the ends and, you know, paint the tracks and some details and any

of them. So yeah, for getting into the game speaking was always the best ones to go for because it quick and easy to paint and there were good army. You can go really. I've got a friend in Portugal, Nemo. And he, he's painting. I was the name of the space between chapter, this yellow. Never remember what the calls. Yeah, he's painting them and he's just an amazing painter and he spends hours and I was painting this figures and they're just always very them.

And I really wish I had that. You know that that's skill, probably not still alive. Oh, you know, you said you have to find out. But his handle is on Twitter. He comes on our, we have a weekly painting chat session over you and UK on, on a Saturday, in the usually pops onto that. I'll dig out his Twitter handle because I always keep forgetting their. So you know, Yeah, I haven't seen those actual actual take him out and find out what his handle is. I'll send it over to you RJ turkeys.

All thank you. Okay. You have always always into looking at People's Army. Yeah, inspiring. So this is great don't ever use soapy kidnapping soldiers. Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yes, it is. So it's very forgiving. That's the word I was looking for epics very forgiving. So if you're not if you haven't got the best eyesight or you're not the greatest painter, I think epic is a really good scale and a good game to get

into for. Yeah. It is that that part of the hobby, anyone again it's you got to remember you can be looking at these figures from three feet away. So The lungs. You know what they are? Basically putting all that detail on there and you can really go to town on some stuff. But you, if you just want to get something quick and dirty out there, it's a way to do it and there's so many companies out there. Now, making very nice figures

that are suitable. For epic, if you can't get ahold of The Originals. Yeah. And for people who are buying them, don't pay too much because I think they're really, not that, you know, there shouldn't be worth an awful lot of money on eBay. For example, you know, that they shouldn't be the values. Not that high. And like Mike said, you know, there's heaps of places there's quite a few companies like Onslaught and what's the other miniature company?

That does a lot of stuff to that does a lot of stuff in like there was like on got like 3D designs up on the on Facebook and The ones I know about wrong. Sort of Vanguard what if you have? Yeah, I'll tell him. Yeah, yeah, finally got anger. That's the one constant in both these companies and they are top-notch. They really are worth worth looking at. Yeah. Yep, yep, so that's good.

Good Alternatives out there. But if you want, if you want the look, the metal models, like the metal vehicles, and that guy thing, then here you have and you can get a lot of the stuff that you use that. Also I just come back and get my Twitter feed and you know you know is actually Rastaman on Twitter that's than 2009. Yeah. Okay sir. Thank you. Yeah, because it's good because, you know, we've got our own little, you know, community on Facebook that has a like a

middle had that epic. It's basically encompasses all the different versions and all the different editions and yeah, it's quite active and a lot of people post up stuff all the time about the battles, they're playing or armies are painting and it's always encouraging to see those groups, keeping these old games alive, because that's what they that's what essentially they need, they need more exposure.

So people know about them. They can get out if they're interested, I can go to things, like net, epic and those websites where you can download all the other for free and that

kind of stuff. So, yeah, there really is how communities is really important for anything, because it really bugs me, when people say that games are dead, Yeah, because the company stopped supporting that, you know, games Aren't Dead long as people stop playing them and it's Community spirit and that's it. The thing. But when I did the Epic show on on meeples That was one of the things I wanted to do and I didn't quite get that that show,

right? Which is It's annoying because I would like to come back and actually address that I like, I think I actually owe the Epic Armageddon and the Epic 40K communities, who sell out their massive apology. Because It turned into a bit of a Love Fest, a second edition, and a net Epic. And I didn't give the time to those other game. As I probably should have done because I went back when I worked on that show. I went back and I played all the Editions.

Just to remind myself how to play only just solo game in it but epic 40K is a great little game. The way the suppression work is much faster than space moving on, you know, and epic. Armageddon is moved on from that as well. And again it's a brilliant game and it's it's it's like I think the Epic Armageddon is probably the most important of all the Epic gangs. And even though I never played it, it's the one that still

doing tournaments. Now in this one is still got the app to around here who are playing a lot of games. And it's I think it's because it's sort of smaller than what we were doing it with a Space Marine. You keep your arm, he's going to be in that much smaller. Immediately, it becomes a lot more easy for people to get into. And it plays a lot quicker you, which is why you have tournament seen through because you can play the game in that Epoch and one and a half hours.

Yeah. So I was sort of feel that I sort of missed an opportunity there. So hopefully, I can I can apologize and say, sorry chaps. I don't worry about, it's okay. Well, I've never played those games. Like I have no idea what they're like or never experienced. I'm sort of coming in from, you know, like a 25 Hiatus, twenty five-year Hiatus playing Epic and having really fond memories of. It being my most favorite game ever.

So coming back into it over the last over a year and a half and playing it thinking I was looking at through, you know, the rose-tinted glasses but in fact it wasn't it. It's still a fantastic game. I suppose, the other editions that came out laughter like 40K and all the other iterations of Epic just like just different versions of games completely different. And you know, I can understand why the Epic Community during that time.

We're really disappointed with epic 40K because it wasn't what they had imagined or it wasn't the 1.5 or 22-point version. They were looking for You know, so people got discontented and they just you know they just went on and did their own thing with net epic but yeah, yeah. They are still very good.

They just have a different feel which is again I think this is what Gordon said when he was on, it's great that you can use the same figures and play different games and get a different style of game. It's not just a reskin in, it's a completely different feel of a game. And that's always good because getting them out we together. It wasn't of any game. So yeah, I definitely recommend anybody who's got an epic army or two applicants, but rapidly.

Try out the different systems. They've all got their pros and cons, Yeah. Yep. Yeah, so yeah that's that's a good point in this is also other systems because you know, I'll listen to your podcast for a long time, your nails podcast and you would often bring up some other kind of you know, sort of proxy system if you like for epic, where someone had developed a rule set, which basically had lists for like with generic names.

But they basically match the forces and lists in Epic Space Marine that the end can use their collection of Rules in different systems so future Wars commands. Oh, Commander 1990 commit, a kind of which I did there's a game called poly versatile. That's the one. Which is due out soon. Yes, Kane's going. Yeah. Yeah, they did a Kickstarter. It's they just finishing up. Now, I still coming around, I'll

call the Miniatures for that. And get, that's a nice system because it allows you to use figures from different manufacturers. In one game, it's just a generic sci-fi game, but yeah, you can quite quickly stat up, you know, I packed it on on my blog years ago, when Melissa oxygen from the play test and fear and I basically just went okay.

Can I put together Polly the salami using my epic stuff and it would be easy but you spent, okay, so this is my unit, this is the statuette bandicam Now it's I think a lot of it is that there's always rules. That's out there. You can use your any figures because I use man once said, it's just, you know, it's just a token, but I think if you want to play in the 40K Universe you need to take that Universe in

and encapsulate that into your games. and sometimes that's the trick and I think it's something that epic did very well and obviously 40K does And there's so much stuff out there for the universe. So much fluff out there that you can really get a good feel. You know, I and I I've been looking at doing role-playing before the king Universe Upton Bill playing before in that Universe like I do role play in the old world For what hammer? Oh yeah. Yeah yeah. Cause you got a massive

collection. Yeah. What's up? Yeah. And there's new fourth edition out there, which is brilliant, but it just like universe and it's fun to actually play games in that universe. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a sticking point for me, mate.

Because like when it when I look at different different versions of games or alternative you sets or whatever, I'm not playing in the, the universe that I love and I think it's really hard for me to break out of that because, you know, people say, oh, you got to try 9th age, or you to try Kings of War. Exactly. Yeah, and I didn't kind of default. Nothing when we were looking at Fantasy game. It was in his will.

This is what Long been a we want to have the different sort of tropes in there and start we'd only be from they'll want to do this anyway and they all came back to what we wanted. Was the old world. You because the old world is so rich. Those are said, well, what's the point? What's the point using like the 95, which is again, knife edge is a nice set of rules. What they've done with the Warhammer Army project is really interesting as well, would be enveloped her in a tradition

that's quite interesting. But you know what? Oh, the world. You sure you want to pick this up at home? No, I don't because I'm playing I'm playing, I'm playing all the old Edition is it doesn't really wild zhenya but I just wasn't as curious as I love you. So, we'll Hammer Army project is they, they sent you win a condition. Finishing on anybody to Sigma. This project came together to basically carry on.

We've a tradition. But similar thing tonight a pic of keeping the Army and the substrate, we knew figures that GW will release in and expanding out new world with, you know, we've sort of Nations that hadn't been being released. So you know, things like Napalm and the kingdoms of being in Amazon's things like that and they did a specifically for each

of you. I'm not a carrier down to two main tradition, where they put in some tweaks, and just some against Sims, what happened in that Epoch where people sort of went on, you know, these rules don't really work very well, can we tweak this? And so they basically go to new sort of fan based version of the game which again is really well

supported. And if you're, I mean, I've been looking for this great but then I've got the a traditional book in the code axes, so we're not going to bother there. But it's nice to know where people are doing this stuff so yeah that's a another goodie to look into actual add that to your list of things. He goes on Twitter for you unless you need to know. Yeah, I'm I've got to be, I've gotta be honest, I'm sort of snake. In the 90s made up, I'm playing all the 90s gangs.

I'm, I'm sort of. Like, I'm enjoying revisiting all that sort of stuff, because I've left it left it way by you back many, many years ago. And I thought I'd never go back never to playing, you know, fourth edition fantasy, fifth edition fantasy that end Space Marine. And now I've got Manowar recently and I've never I played it once, when I was living in England, when I was a Youngster and I really enjoyed it, but I never got to play it after that.

So, yeah, basically, it's been a real will, you know, rediscovery period for me and I've sort of, really loving the Nostalgia. And that's why, yeah, the whole podcast thing happened, because I think a lot of other people do enjoy it as well. Like the fun of that in their hobby, you know. But they play other obviously, they play more than systems and they play different other games, but yeah, the Nostalgia.

Yeah. And there's something back here, it was such a good period birth to Games Workshop, they were really Innovative what they were doing in that being it. Time. It kind of reminds me of it was before the main games when a bit silly. You know, and it was sort of before the period of many maps and it was when the games were so games in their own, right? I'm not A commercial decision to drive sales up by releasing

brand. New Uber units that You know, that the people ended up having to buy the brand new Army to become to be competitive. Which it is probably a Trope is probably, you know. I don't know how much of that is true because I'm not really wanting to leave the tournament scene, but I have played against players who basically do go for that whole I want to win two in one. And that's, you know, that's not what I want to. I want to play a game for 3 hours and have a laugh.

Yeah, so yeah, it's nice to go back and there was some great games out there. I mean, yeah, I mean it off, it was a great game, like, you end up playing Manowar. Again it's just fantastic. Yeah you have to get on a table very soon and play. But it's also the games like more time and a little skirmish games. We are getting really worth looking into, some are better

than others but it was, you know it was a good period. it's quite nice to know, Gaff Gaff up again from the podcast and Oh yeah, the past and stuff. I don't know. He's got a real love of that up. You didn't. I've actually promised him a game of epic. What's covid gets lifted and we can travel again. Hello, I have to go to not, take either the deck with him, which is weak and reading looking for checks and such a nice guy. I like you. But yeah, you know, there's a

lot of great. Yeah, lot of the people I know. So came from gzipping that time and I just you from Escape games to do a marker there. They were xgw people and yeah, it was just a great time for that the whole that we have for that company. And I think they get in the back. Knows it's quite interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting following them again.

Because I went for a long period about I do my line, you can do it you w because I just thought they were just ripping off people and stuff but recently they released them. I'm that bitch. Talking to the community again. Yeah. So that's a good thing. Yeah I mean I know that you're very much focus on the nineties but You know, if you ever wanted a little side projects, have a look at some of the new games ever released. They're pretty good. Adapter Titanic.

It is absolutely amazing game. Yeah, what's up? Yeah. Yeah, that's good. At that was the only game but I saw pictures of when they had that Muhammad a or whatever in Nottingham that I just thought, wow, that like this is and this is before I got back into second edition as well, like I was like wow, this is cool.

Like, you know, I really enjoyed epic back a day and he's tightened look amazing that the terrain looked incredible but then I looked at the price and I thought, you know, the price put me off at Big times of yeah, is no way I could afford and but no one to play it with anyway. Yeah. I mean, it will say one day, I hope. I mean they they I mean, it is essentially, the first edition. It is a type of Titanic is one, but we much nicer Titans. I'm much nicer production values and tidy rules.

Yeah, and yeah, yeah, I get it. It's a quite a good tactical game, even logic imperialis is, wouldn't it's worth looking into Because that came out original. That was a hold World game. Oh yeah, tell me when I came out. I feel like you're very late 90s, early 90s. That's a long time ago. Yeah. It must be mostly to. That must be I reckon. I was like maybe 2000 or something. Sure of it. Yeah, yeah it's back when I was in Australia, I reckon I was like early.

Let's have a look on the visual mid-2011 spin around. Okay, man. Yes, I do remember that having them like showing what towel ships and all this kind of stuff for it and it was there like they're exclusive game that you can only order and by panelists. Yeah, I did how she was already. Still have my towel Army in my original Imperial Guard stuff but I put the new box set when it came out. I said, lucky. Go to my cabin and find the rule book which is hidden away somewhere.

I have or luckiest have a browser on the internet. Cool. Yeah, it was a while ago but yeah, it's a nice little game. I'm with praying that it's only in that nine planes, which is enough to pay little to play with and they're going to paint up using the Epic. Okay, the big big flapping, but you can use them. Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if I know because my one of the guys, I know in Japan, he

loves all the new stuff. So, maybe if he picks it up one day, I'll give it a go because you wanted me to try was a war cry because that only involves a few minutes has and I could use my old Hammer minis for it and all that kind of stuff. And and you know, it wouldn't cost me any money. It's just like just walking up and playing it, but yeah, what. Yeah, and a I'll try it because I'm not going to knock it until it. Right basically.

But yeah, it had. It would have to be something really amazing that gangster should do now. Yeah, that's fair enough. I think, you know, I'm into the modern gyu stuff. I don't go mental on my back that I bought. I bought into your eyes because I wanted the plains. Yeah. And it's nice that game but I feel I've just bought the core game. That's all I pulled. Which is unusual for me. I have bought quite a few Titans 444 adapters, you know, just that is because they're lovely.

But they're not quick to paint. There's a lot of detail on them. Yeah. At the very big, there's a lot of data on they do. You know, that awkward? But the they do work okay with others second generation of Epic figures, that sort of matter ones which was a little bit bigger. Yeah, they look very well. Can you just got all those rumors and with who? Yeah, he's a real going to do epic again, which they're not. I like the wanting to. Yeah no that wouldn't do it man.

I don't think so. I don't want them to do it either. To be honest. I mean you've got net epic. You've got second edition. You've got all these other versions of Epic navigate and whatever. So you don't really need another well, maybe maybe we do need a new version of the game. I don't know that it's going to be if they make it is going to be like, very maybe competitive landed.

I think a lot of their games are sort of more and games, generally nowadays, and more for the computer more competitive tournament scene. So, yeah, I think the community is, you know, taking it under their wing anyway and doing what they do best and, you know, making games or making systems or making house rules alterations. Yeah. I mean, I think you might just might see some ground forces for the depth of Titanic has I think that might happen because it got its and I have no inside the

knowledge, just my gut feeling. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is stop is zombies. I trusted you and you told me, no, this is just my opinion that big do that because they've set it in there in the heresy, okay? They can do it with very small amount of Production costs because they just had to do moving's. And a few vehicles. Yeah, that's it. Where was Adam in though, ever go back into into epic, I took

it up the butt. I can't seem going to 40K Universe because the amount of things they have to release. We just be enormous. And I don't know if there would be that much, they would be diluting their pool of players. You know what, they do want to do is to stop, is to how people are currently paying 40K, drop that and start playing as playing an epic game. They won't. Which would happen. They got apocalypse, which allows 40K players to play Massive.

Great games. I've actually played apocalypse using using my epic stuff and it works really well. It's Okay, that's cool. Because yeah, another guy. Another guy in Japan told me about that, two years, because I did see the video about it because I know Gervais designed it and he designed space. Yeah, big as well. And a lot of that design, influence came from Space Marine so and I did see that in the video when I watched it. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Okay. Well it's very good.

Movement. Right authorities Movement. Try something like to do not begin 28. Now that's it and I picked it up and it's a good it okay. It was Phoebe well because it alive and you know it was another reason she's my epic figures. I mean, I think I like about those games is they've done a lot more on the scenario design, which was always for me the big failing with space moving. You literally had this one scenario, you line up either side table and you charging.

Which I always changed very in, even back in the game we were playing, we always played scenarios Papa scenarios where you no one's attacking defending, maybe a fighting Retreat, all that sort of stuff because just hold it just like that the charge was just boring. So the apocalypse tough part of stuff from think, I'm not sure if epic 40K had something more scenarios in there for me that that made the game much more

interesting. No. I'll have to try it one day night and see how it goes, but yeah. Oh yeah, I guess like some awesome games. I think I just need to rely on somebody else actually having it because exactly I cannot afford my I can't honestly not with games worship prices these days. But yeah but yeah but yeah the Epic stuff and did. Yeah. The the sorry the adapters mechanicus did impress me because it was based on the original rules and I thought, oh, that's cool.

Then I never played the original. So it would have been that. That would probably be the only only game whatever they would not and the Imperial perilous what it was called, the what the The that's it. Thank you for Nautica. Yeah, that might be interesting as well, but yeah. But yeah with the scenarios I totally understand that it's probably why I love the playing, what happened? Because you look in an analyst scenario variations that you could play up.

And one of the joys of I'm having now is recreating the white dwarf battles. So even for epic to trying to get the same models. Make the same trip. Yeah, that people find out the Epic Center. Because that's what you put out. Yeah, but yeah, that's a funny idea. Yeah, I love that idea. I think that probably was my, ya think. I say, I still got to show him. I kept it. The that's so I wasn't as they release traffic which had all the white dwarf articles in there.

Basically battle. That's the word. Yeah. Yeah, so a equals. Yeah, it is the guy I'm gonna go get some beautiful. I'm going to stop. Yeah. Another version of the game you can play the scenarios in it because they had that they had the fortification scenarios to so you could have yeah you can have like you have like a certain points cost for the defender and he would have to buy all these fortifications. And and I just love that photograph where you got that, which one is it?

Like An Imperial Guard as a massive massive termite, or what it's called. Arctic go there. He'll board has massive, termite type things that dig underground. Yeah. Is it called again? It's looking through that will help. All right, that's it. Yeah, just looking at it now. It's a beautiful picture. I love that picture. That's my favorite ones is like digging up the ground. Look at this massive Imperial Guard Army. You know stationed outside of

this black stuff. Yeah. I don't know why, but the slight slight disagreement there somewhere along the line. But yeah, it looks really like this. Massive seed battle.

So, yeah, those kind of things gives, it's very rich with lots of ideas that you can Implement into your games, and look at the journal because the siddall journals had a lot of stuff, a lot of content in their 2-1 being There was one that we had like there's an epic campaign that you can play and I think you've got like and Gordon has his own campaign, is probably

heard in the podcast too. But there's one of the journal where they had like, you know, you designed like a 50,000 Point Army and then you'd have there's like pages and pages and pages of rules about how you pay basically did it. But basically, you play epic in the massive games and in the smaller games, like the small point games, you play 40K second edition to, to work out the whoever won that particular scenario, whatever. But I really like that idea.

So yeah, there's lots of there's lots of scope so basically it's limited to your own imagination. Like you say like, you know, you can make up your own scenarios with your opponent and create terrain for various different things. But yeah, there's another Journal article, I found was really good too, I think It had a lot of a lot of fortification stuff in it to what you had like defenses and different kinds of weapons. You can buy bit like big fortifications. Like you can make a massive.

Yeah, I remember the fortification rules and play Big seeds iced. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff out there. I've still got my foot in location, which I built in the nineties in a box which I use that every play. So I got one of the big It was a plastic card with the plastic up bunkers with the couple of Titan weapons on top of it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And all up to yeah they're great. And again it just adds to the scenarios. Yeah. It does, it does. Yeah, yeah. So that's my main motivation.

These days when playing is to recreating a lot of the Nostalgia, through the white dwarf articles and will be read when we all sing along with much younger and getting into the hobby. I'll see if I can find one of the battles that are there, then doubtful took part in and but he tried to recreate that room, I could be fun. Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, but he can tell us what they did. Yeah, exactly. I know. Yeah, yeah.

Most of those are most of the lists were like, when looked at like the operatic, I actually just talked about every two, I think it must be one of the most balanced games. Like, I might be wrong, but and I suppose it depends how much, how much, how much money you got in your wallet, and how many models you can buy and how many, you know, how many, you know,

super heavy vehicles? You can buy paint up or whatever, but I think it's fairly balanced because of the restrictions that, you know, you can only take one special card and for each company and then five. Yeah, because it's a well, so do you get them to people going out? And really sort of look at the point system and looked like glaring mistakes in it. But from an army building point of view, I think it was a one of the best systems they came up with just because he was always

based around. A company cards. That was that was the big for you have to have and then you basically added your support to that and then you your special cards and you have this very modular way of building up your army. So you couldn't just take loads and loads and loads of, you know, specialist cards, you still have to face everything around you big chunks, which were your between companies and I don't think I've ever been bit better. Acted.

I guess her. It's so easy because you got your cards, it just go. I like one of them is I mean I love couple of those one of them out of the point in time. That's my arms. Again, these great. Yeah. I mean epic is those professional Juiced, which is a fabulous print and fold them sticking to you, but me. But the cards had all the

special rules on the back. So it made to, you wouldn't happen to touch many things like fell down Ryan and auxiliary is so many special rules and they would you always going through the books, trying to find the butter, Special rules, where which will cost reference off somewhere, but just to have them, you know, have them there and I handed or card holder was

great idea. Yeah, I actually end up writing the writing, all the details of their yeah, weapons and movement and all that kind of thing on the cars itself in pencil. Because, yeah, I know it's a pain, having to go back and some of the rules, other, all written in the rule book that they had the rules in the like, the fluff text, which is quite bizarre, and then they did, they didn't mention it in the actual stat on the stat lines or anything like that.

So you have to actually go through and find them all, which is quite funny. But But yeah, but that damn were the days and that's how they wrote the rules. And, you know, and Maybe it was quite interesting. You know, you had all these little Easter eggs you would find when you start reading the text, maybe it was done. Yeah. And there would be one person knew all the rules which I never tell with all the rules so it does that. Yeah yeah yeah I wish I knew

that about 25 years ago. we've discovered things too, like playing mean Gordon this, another Gordon that we played remotely at home here and then we discover new things after having played something that I, that's right, we did this wrong or I forgot about this particular rule or whatever, but I think the thing is that have any of the Sexes and get the basic rules and nailed and then start looking at some of the more freaky But he's white again if you're starting off.

Yeah. Start with face creams because it just how so few special rules and they are quite hard to kill. They were great, they were good ones. Start and just to learn the basic mechanics, Yep. Particular model. That is your favorite. Be the hell boy. I thought that was a stunning model. Yeah, I've got one and I've got another tunnel which I wanted to to ask what my the gorgeous model. But yeah it was just it was so impressive. Cool. Yeah I think. It's yeah, yeah.

I really like that model actually. And the way their parents due to a colors as well. Yeah. I like those on the pill. And he each one of them out, I find out I paint differently. Are you different different styles of paint on each Army just to give each one of, you know, its own flavor. The Orcs are always pick the vehicles are always rough and irregular than, you know, lots of rust on them as the Eldar not to glazes. And you know what of varnish just to make it pop and gems and stuff.

And so he immediately can Of laying your painting skills as well, or you can. Enhance your painting skills shall we say I try new things and it's been kind of going back. You know, when I did that Elder Army couple years ago and I went back and painted up some of the Titans magnetized a shrink. because I'm yeah, I don't know why I did. It was ridiculous idea but It's one of these about it was nice to go back after you paint from

scratch, it's a together. You know, I'm doing these these, these Titans out and just I painted the Titans in. 25 years. You know, it's nice to sort of see what I've learned. You can just paint it. Yeah. But there's always this. yeah, I know and I sure am I doing put some banners on to Yeah, I'll see what I can find. I'm painting, but I think it looks little girl. I was looking those bands. I did for the conversation and And those good. Yeah, I got school.

Yeah. And yeah, the the space portal from Heroes. Vague know. Love's name was a kid. All I did all those conversions which again, we're in a white dwarf, you know? And just like, I'd never do that. Yeah, I have to go out somewhere and find find a company who could do color printing for me. This fucker. Get this page you printed that Yeah, yeah, yeah. I recently did that for my gas go, and it doesn't look very

nice actually. The printer at work, this makes it look awful, like, very dull and washed out, so, yeah, I need it. I don't know how the guys in the studio, did it because they must head like a really high-end printer to reduce those 40K ones, down to make them for the epic epic models. But yeah, there are some really beautiful looking banners and you know that's that's one of the group. Good things about it. Yeah. Really needs it. Yeah. I guess.

I used up my old one. Mighty armies look really stand out myself, a Classic Armies at which I did keep, I was looking and thinking II should really be repaint them. But I mean no it's not because they are basically a snapshot of what I was doing the last time. So even though the banners of rough and you know, look at the crap, I wouldn't change him because that was me, you know? Twenties.

Playing this game. So and I suppose be my aunt, my, a force of nature, never go back and we paint anything or was it was a different painting, paint new stuff. Yeah. It's all good. Yeah, awesome. Ain't ya. Don't be like me and go back and read that you are going to display his signal box that actually ends up. I'll never get a move on to the next one. I won't. I'll be yeah, yeah, paint, I paint up a unit of 20 dwarf, Hammers and I had him in like

yellow and black color scheme. I thought, oh, they'll look a bit different from what all the other stuff I've got on my only, but then Added up full grip on those only thrown it is all in the classic, you know, Studio color scheme, blue and white. I thought well the hammer is the like you know, he's got his own bodyguard, they're in a different color scheme. So then, you know, then I had this idea of painting The Shield's a different color than I just painted the whole lot

again. So you know, it is crazy but but I enjoyed it though. It's you know, it's fun. It's it's not it's counterproductive but it's still. Yeah, I really enjoy. Go back in the position, we better all my stuff. I started off with. I did do any period Army Empire Army all started one and I can't about 10 years ago which then went into a box and never got finished and then when we started this project I got them back out again.

And again if I'm not only, I'm not going to repaint them but I did you like a hand-painted Banner? Just like I had more time that I knew back in those days, the going back in the just trying to add new units and paint them. Similar Styles how I painted them painted 10 years ago was quite unusual whose it is and there's good son. and then I did the High Elves campaign banners because again, I didn't get mad, but Yeah, I enjoy going back and up, painting a little figures.

Something very nice about it yet. Nice. Yeah, again they were for my mate. Yeah, I know she had a nice ass. We get these nice to go back to us, right? This is Joshua and look, there's a lot of them. The Devil comes fast, there's those high heels, and mostly contrast. Come Tassimo she is in just trying again, just try and contrast over different and and the coast to see the effect and unfair for elves and for High Elves, which meant to be, you know, I always seen as being

really bright and blingy, it really worked quite well. when I know that I went a bit mad on the Phoenix Rider, I finished it. Yeah, again that was most common really nice actually. Yeah. but the, you know that Yeah you just the sheer Terror of having six Potter contrast print open on the yeah, good ones knowing that you know I'm bound to knock one of them over or yeah. Yeah. Our category revived and knock them over one small slip. Yeah.

Yeah, I suppose, I suppose one positive thing, but the contrast if you do want that old Hammer kind of vibrant, you know, really sad that they are really quite finish, especially the contrast are really good for that. And the whites puffy. White contrast is quite unusual, but you've got to fill it down. If you're going to use that get there, contrast medium And finna write down my I found the weapon because otherwise you got very gray and you do have to painter.

So I tend to I've watered down sort to first country to Foods medium, one 1/3 contrast and it's still got enough pigment in there too when you paint it on you. So do get a very nice shadowing in the recesses it works quite well. Cool. Yeah that's good. Also I want to ask you. Have you have you tried that a final Liberation? Yes. Years ago. Yeah, I just discovered it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You can find you'll find some patch for something or whatever. Discovering the of this is the

hope your podcast. I'm going to put into this podcast. So when you hear back at, you'll see it. You'll hear it with a very start because I've been having fun, finding this at there's, a whole website, which has all these, all the soundtracks for the games. And I've just downloaded them in August with him. A little little Clips out in like 30, second Clips order, just for the Nostalgia feeling for, I think a lot of people love those old classic, and I

tell you PSI station games. I don't know. What is this? Final Liberation and comes one game. Lots of chaos. Maybe the PS game. Right. Well, the this yeah. Because yeah, shut the shadow of the whole rat was a PS1 game, so it was dark Omen, but there was so terrible with the with a controller that I gave up in like within seconds of playing, it was just impossible to play it. So I just rediscovered it like last week and I bought it from gog.com because it runs on my

tablet. I'm just good at like a Microsoft Surface Pro and it's it, like a tablet PC and it works on this thing about. Yeah, it's been driving me nuts. Because it's also really hard. I don't have to explain it but man, it's so hard. Like the books from Steam Market chaos. Which I can let the food one in that series. Middle saying yeah. Just back a from Graphics all the way through. But yeah. Dark Omens are that Have you looked up with that? Oh yeah, it's Occam's.

Yeah. Yeah. The voice acting was brilliant of the skaven were just fantastic. So yeah, as I had some fun with that side. Yeah, I thought just ask you about the final Liberation because I saw him on YouTube and I saw this guy playing I thought, wow, this is incredible. Like this is exactly what it was like in secondary like all the vehicle designs of the same, like nothing had been sort of modernized the gameplay look

really cool. And then had like this entire campaign system built into it as well, which is really fascinating. I'm definitely going to try that at some point, but I thought I'm just trying to give shadow the horn, read a bit of a go first and see how far I get with it before I get so frustrated. I know, yeah, I tell her that before. Have that might go and get it. Yes. Sadly they don't have document

yet because I know dark. I mean is a better game like as far as controls and obviously the graphics have been better but the controls over the better. So I hope to get that at some point. Will find find some safe download link that I can get it because they're still. Yeah, but they're still a massive computer Community made in Germany. There's a huge form based on it but these guys are like creating

like modern mods for the game. That's has got a massive following in Germany for some unknown reason, but around the world obviously. But in Germany it seems really really popular maybe because they had that, you know, that player-versus-player part like that. Okay? Even though don't we let your friends maybe that's why I became a cop because of that my steamed past the moment. I'm not, here's the big one. Yeah, I got the new battlefleet Gothic struggled with All right.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't played it. Looking into. Okay. Cool. Okay. That'd be awesome. Yeah. All right. Yeah. It might be just nice filler because I think the computer games are kind of a nice bridge between, you know, if people especially now with the covid

thing. Like if they don't have the chance to play in person with somebody else, then maybe the computer games are a nice little you know, like a stop gap between that and playing at a club or something and to get that Nostalgia, fix, if you need it. But yeah, but something I have to sort of sort of discovered again recently and I've been really enjoying the yeah, the trip down memory lane. Yeah, I remember sometimes old classic games. But the soundtracks have been

fantastic to listen to yeah. I've got in my head man. Like that the set, the set of the whole rat. Soundtracks been my head the whole week ever since I started playing again. It's got that really sort of funny the carbs on it sound of, you know, some kind of synthesizer, very 90s style music in the background, it's really funny. Yeah, socome on a trip down memory lane design. That music is brilliant. Have you ever even playing officer will take battlefleet

Gothic? I've never played it, man. No, this is I think I think when that came out I basically just wasn't playing anything GW at all. I just totally given up on it. So I don't know what I was doing. Then I think I think I was this painting, I think was just painting stuff and collecting Kev Adams walks. And when he was working for heartbreak and then he went to Harlequin and then he went to Foundry or something or whatever.

Yeah, you did it various other place and I used to find his Miniatures in my local game store and I think I just enjoyed sitting downstairs, painting speaking Portuguese basis. Basically that period of time that again, it's a little game. I played a lot with Bill for Thornhill and I foolishly if I like Elites which is something I never do. It was a, it was like, he's probably isn't probably seven

that everyone expects. Now, I literally had all the plates and I played it all the time and then when Bill moved away, I was playing with the Celtic Guardian. She's not a column. He's gonna lose one of me. Yeah, and playing The Firestorm among other games by Spartan Stuff. And I said, I decided to have a

Plume some of the figures I got. So I sold a couple of the fleet's think I normally, whenever I said, I always keep at least two armies for anything just in case out, so I'm going to go back into it. But it was as like the time in Berkeley Gothic was quite popular and people are just offering Stupid Money, stuff up stuff, as I'm going to. So I sold all of the fleet's and then immediately regretted a But again, it's a it's a it's a space game figures for it's

worth investigating. If you're into the mounties style figure came out late 90s. Yeah. And it kind of the night, isn't it? Yeah, it did. Yeah I think when I got out of whatever God above the Games Workshop hobby was when 6th edition was released. So that can't that I think yeah, I'm pretty sure that game came out when 6th edition came out at the same time, think War master came and I guess you've got

that. Oh, she got into Walmart but no one actually played it. Yeah. 1999 economical very last game, but I ever got into with, with Games Workshop. Yeah. And during that time, well, yeah, it's a good game. You know essentially Napoleonic aliens in space. She says there is only okay two dimensions in in space. Right.

Okay, but it's a fun thing. So it's if you little hook get hold of some of the ships as we're trying out and I it's I I did a computer program to do a campaign for the idea was basically, you're fighting over systems. So you've got the Naval battle, you know, I've been space then, dictates how you getting reinforcements down for the ground Campaign, which is some of the Full drill did on their,

on their book ticket, the towel book. quite a few years ago and that had the bitter you had to know you in there for Gothic for epic and for 40K, all in the same book. I like the she did stop by. Not computer game, but a computer. Camping system. Yeah sister. So basically you know you moved moved all your units around on the couch and on the campaign that would then dictate what the battles were going to be and how you play them. But again yeah a good a good

game. If you wanted to add another dimension to a campaign, Kasich is a good way of doing it. Yeah. Well, that's that's the thing. So I was I was dreaming about having money in pies, Men of War and War Hammer. A, the fourth or fifth edition as like, the three essential games to run a campaign, but then I suppose with 40K epic Space Marine epic, you know, 40K second edition and then, the battlefleet gothic would be another X. Yeah.

Is it wrong that I recently started to have, you know, kind of the all different Mighty Empires Master was nice and Manowar. Think yeah. I got another little good game. That's a good idea to war Master. Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Mike. Yeah again I had it.

No wonder the play it so I had two armies and I want to do it so I just end up selling everything so maybe one day if someone was interested in doing it and I can find a cheap Army to pick up. I'd love to play dwarves or actually, I'd like to play all can goblins in it because I love playing organ gums and fantasy. So yeah, maybe maybe one day or a final alternative company that sells metal know, there's 10 million, six mil, miniature those Boxes of their scales and

Dracula quite good. If I can find that then. Yeah microworlds used. Very good, 6ml armies. They're based in America, so they might be quite quite easy for you to get over and over in Japan. But yeah, yeah well I get my masters and I came I took my wall Master armies and I don't baste them for sword and spear which is a fantasy historical game again. Big based I gotta think about big. I love having small figures on big bases. I like the whole thing about my fact, you can do.

So I did all of my took them all off their 40, by 20 bases and I put them all on to 60 by 40. So I have the big units. Big Blocks of units, wandering around. Did I apart from old? Grandma? Never the dogs. Just because they would take less expensive. Stone. Barn, us. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's what it seems to be like someone saying that the skaven are incredibly rare to find tools like mail-order only so it was like, yeah.

So yeah, if there's probably one guess if you look at Six Mile. Yeah, maybe that's a good option for me. That's been the world basically. But you see, I think these days. But when you're looking at the games to the nineties, Because the figures you can't get anymore. It's always worth. Finding the rules, the rules

that they usually out there. You can either buy the hard copy is available, there's places that you can download them, but it's always worth looking at other figures because once it's nice, having the official GW ones, you know, when it cost you sort of 20 Critter, by single unit of War, Master, you know, infantry plus postage. You saw, I think. Well, I'd rather give some money to these new companies. Are you so's? Exactly. That's fair enough. Yeah, I think that's a good

idea. I think there's so many Alternatives out there. Of course, I'm a, you know, I'd love to have all the original stuff, but sometimes it's not not that pot, not always possible, but I always try to get the original models for the yeah, authenticity in that kind of thing. But, yeah, there's some really great stuff out there, like, you say, there's excellent modern companies, making some really wonderful stuff. Yes, so that's always, that's always good to know, anyway.

But anyhow, we're going to have to wrap up. Our podcast, was almost at the two-hour. Mark, thank you again. Oh, I haven't taken the team. Would have to assume that your chat and talk to me and I hope you got something paid in my house. You Titans going? Yeah, that's fine. Mate that's but it's been our pleasure, most of it, and Old Third Edition, J-Squad, encoder painted up. So it next time we'll definitely have to get your painting. Yeah, right. It's been awesome.

I mean it's like I said, it's that's a real tool has been great so we can do it again and I was thinking maybe maybe we can do a Manowar special. Yeah, yeah we did the epics thing now. So yeah, let's do matter. What must have played a couple of games and I've got the system down and I've had some experience playing it. Yeah. We'll definitely have a Manowar special, maybe with another person as well, maybe from the Manowar, Facebook group or on Twitter or something like that.

Yeah, because you are, you kneeling people working with Wills more stories, War Stories of applying Manowar something to great as well. So yeah, we'll definitely will definitely It's a great day actually I don't know I don't know anything about. Yeah. So I can't wait to get it on the table. Yeah. But But I know, I know. Yeah, that's why. I know, I know. Yeah, definitely. Like, I know, I know you love it because I know you on the able to manage that.

Yeah. Talked about how wonderful it is. And, and then Neal was always crying over having sold over the entire class. If they were to some guy famous famous car park at edgbaston, the victim's car park or some place or whatever. but, She's ready. Thank you very much for making it to the end of this podcast. I hope you enjoyed our chat

today, with my, I certainly did. I was very honored that he accepted my invitation to come on to the podcast and talk all about Space Marine. Yes, it's a big, big part of my history even though I haven't got many memories of playing the game. Small fragments remain that. I know, I really enjoyed it. It wasn't a case of looking through the the rose-tinted glasses because Having come back to it. After all these years it is

still a fantastic addition. The greatest games ever made as Mike pointed out, you know, there are different other versions of the game. That have been the result of out of fan base groups or from Games Workshop itself. They are not the same. They're all different iterations

of of Space Marine that. So you can all be enjoyed in different ways and strong communities Behind These systems online in Facebook. Other places that you can go in and find these groups to find other people may be in your area that you can play with. I think Mike is organizing games to play with people locally to which is excellent to hear and we hope to see more of those photos up on Twitter on these account at some point in the future.

So now looking forward, I think we'll have a big chat about Manowar, which is another great game that James was released during the early 90s. And it's something that I've recently acquired and I'm sort of painting the shifts and I'm going to drag some of those ships out today and start painting some more of those just showing you the basic ready and we can get a game recorded on the channel.

As a demo game, I hope that Jesse can join me in a demo game of that in the future in a remote play or get Justin, give me a game here. Because yeah I think there's something like that that's a Hidden Gem. That doesn't really get much much exposure anymore.

I don't think there are groups on Facebook but it's pretty quiet there but it's this very little on YouTube is very little other kind of media talking about Manowar so we want to keep the matter what community thriving and alive so yeah that needs to be given a lot more air time the future. Okay guys. So thank you so much again for listening and we look forward to bringing you a new guest next week. In fact, I'm going to record a podcast today with my good friend in New Castle talking

about second edition 40K. And it's his, his rule system that he developed for tournament play. And so, I look forward to bringing that to you sometime maybe mid week, let this podcast are The next few days and I'll bring the next one and mid week or so. So you've got a lot of a lot of content coming away and I think following we have to check who it is, but I think it's a gentleman from Poland talkin about the whole camera that has

just been and gone. I look forward to this, listen to your stories about what happened on the day. What games are played? Know, he request was one of those cool to hear about. Okay guys, well until Then I'll leave you to it and enjoy a hobby for this week. Will catch you next week, take care.