Oldhammer Artist Mustafa Bekir Interview

Hello everybody again and thank you very much for telling this episode. This is Josh your host at the crown of command podcast and again it's my pleasure to welcome another guest. It's taken their precious time to come and speak to me that of course is Mustafa bachir and he's located in Mia prefecture Japan. I hope I pronounced your name correctly there most of our if I haven't you can you can show me next time mate.

So he's come a long because I have known him for what I've never actually spoken to him in person. I've never met him physically in person, but, you know, we've communicated and correspond to through Messenger and Facebook for a number of years because he lives in Japan. And I seen I've seen his artwork on Facebook many times, And we've done a few trades and Miniatures and that kind of thing over time and I thought, well have it.

We dragged onto the show and so he can talk about his passions of for the 80s. In the case workshop, and current stuff they want to talk about, and here's illustration work and how he got into that how we fell into that? So, yeah, it's been a really interesting. Listen, and we talked for about three hours was a massive, massive conversation that I had to edit down and the video.

Unfortunately, during the editing, as we had several disconnections due to my poor, very poor Wi-Fi using a very old tablet. That's I think it's on its last legs that I tried at mishmash everything together. It then I couldn't download it and upload it to YouTube and just didn't recognize the recording format, the file type, or whatever, and I just, just gave up.

So what I had to do is just edit this conversation down as much as I could without taking would just taking all the stuff that was irrelevant maybe or, you know, pictures will looking at, you know, that's now a relevant. And all the only maneuvering and clicking and that kind of thing in the background. So I've sort of tried to clean it up as best I can, but it's in, it's in now in a thousand different fragments of audio clips that I've uploaded. So I hope everything will be

okay. It's just taken me ages and ages and ages to do to get it edited. And I thought, I'm just going to release it and hopefully I'm not done mr. For a disservice in this recording. If that's the case, well, we'll bring it back on because he's really Keen to come back and talk, some more stuff with me and with, to share it with you guys. So that's really cool. But he's a great guy. I hope to play the bit of blood bowl with him in the future.

And I will talk more about that at the end of our interview. So until then guys enjoyed, listen sit back, grab a beverage of choice. And enjoy our chat today. I'll see you in the other side. He re-entered the chronicling podcast. I'm here joined by Mustafar from now, which part of it would part of Japan. Are you from it? Me a prefecture, so Central, Japan, okay, me a perfect joke. I've never been shit into your neck of the woods as yet, but one day we'll have to go down.

I have to come down at some point and so we can we can play some old Hammer but thank you very much again. Extend my thanks on and sharing sharing the wine and your stories of old hammer. And Anything else you want to tell us? But most of our you got, you go straight into my you start talking about how you got into the hobby. So it's a pretty familiar story all started with heroquest which is, I think the the gateway drug for most of the people our age and who are into Miniatures.

So what year was he requests 88? 89. It must have been 89 mate, I think so. Yeah would have been 89 over here. Our Quest as a Christmas present and that got me interested in Miniatures and then you spent some time in England. Yeah yeah. So do you remember wh Smiths? Yes. Yes. So when I was, I guess, 11 years old. I was in wh Smiths looking through the the magazine rack and I came across this, let me see if I can pull up this photo. It was the very first white dwarf I ever bought.

And I managed to find a picture of the cover. So, here we go. So issue, 122 I think February 1990, let me check the date on that. I've got it here. Yeah, February 1990 nicer, Deathwing Terminator painted by Wayne England. That was the very first one I ever bought. And yeah, it was just game over after that I was Hook Line and Sinker and a space Hulk rules for traitor Terminators. It had had an interview with Brian May because that was a

month. He took his kids down to G w HQ and they showed him around the studio and I thought, you know, you know of Queens into it it's got to be good and yeah, it was just after that every month, grabbing every issue and with deep down that rabbit hole and never never came out again. My what a, what a great way to start. You know, through here, request itself and like, many, like you say, from a generation and then, you know, the next step would be

yeah, grab that white dwarf. Magazine will send away for the painting guide and the catalog and then you sort of uh, yeah Line & Sinker. Yeah, absolutely. And then I was, you know, I grew up, I suppose a suburb of our London. So we were pretty lucky that we had a GW store about 35 minutes away on the subway, the Oxford Circus one. So, you know, going into town to pick up Miniatures was you know, it wasn't a big Journey or

anything. And remember, back in the day when they'd have like the Grand Story openings and you'd get those coupons in the magazine, you know, by to blisters get one free or buy space, Hulk get heroquest free and that kind of thing. So, yeah, took full advantage of that. And Fortunately don't have any of those old Miniatures lifting more, which that's another resource. That's another very common story. Yeah. Yeah. But you know I've got no idea.

What happened to half of them. I mean maybe my mom chop them out or I'd like Chuck them because I wasn't happy with the paint jobs. But yeah you know it was great having a GW store so close but I think that time I didn't actually do much game Aiming, it was more just buying the Miniatures, reading the magazine, getting stuff painted. But in terms of actual gaming, it was really just heroquest to space Hulk. I think around that time that I played never played any 40K or fantasy battles.

It was just yeah the board game stuff. Really it was popular in my area. I don't think anyone had any full armies back then. Yeah, well that's funny. You should say that. Now I've played more games now, having come to it, then I ever had when I was playing the 90s, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Well I mean, you know, people often like to have their whinge about GW prices and whatnot, but I mean, even back then and this is probably more to do with our age at the time being, you know, 12 or 13 and having, you know, no money. It felt really expensive. So no one my age had a full Army at that time because none of us were working and pocket money was about 5 or a week, if you

were lucky. So yeah, it was just like the ball games and stuff that we all played and now that, you know, we were all working and we've got a bit of a disposable income, I'm playing a lot more full-sized, you know, war games with our knees and a couple of thousand points than I ever did as a teenager. Yeah, so yeah, pretty familiar.

I think I think so. But yeah, I think a lot of the time I spent just buying the Miniatures, if I had the money and then painting - it's a long time, excruciatingly, long time to paint them all because I want everything painted before I start playing and then trying to find the people to play with them. And I was another problem too. Absolutely. Yeah. Which, which paints did you start with? So initially the he requests it might want yourself.

That was the first thing I got which had ministers in it so I used the humbrol paints. Did you do the same? Yeah humbrol. Enamel stinky. Thick glossy miniature destroying paints but that that was that was all we had in town really? And when you've got very little pocket money, your choices, your Miniatures or paint, it's like get more Miniatures. So you weren't for the cheaper paints. But yeah, thinker a lot of Miniatures died on the sacrificial humbrol, alter back in the day.

Well, they died in white plastic Miniatures. I think my Barbarian died in the Nestle Diplo, put them into and it melted of course, so God, yeah, but we didn't know any better. Make we And no, there was no, there was no social media was an internet. There was no school to go to, especially in Australia, where I was. Yeah, there's no one to talk about these kind of things, you know, me?

I was lucky in that the were maybe four or five boys in my year at school who were interested in Miniatures. So I had someone to at least talk to about it and we've, you know, chat about painting and stuff but yeah, I mean you know pre-internet, it was all trial and error. You couldn't really log onto anything.

And you know, tap the hive mind, And you know benefit from all this Collective knowledge, it was just you know figure it out yourself and lose a few minutes along the way unfortunately. So what game do you do? You still remember as being the most fondest memory of what you use? You said you clicked a lot of board games was a he requests or

space. Hold that sort of really catches your Nostalgia heart when you think about those guys, Remember, Nostalgia, point of view, it's got to be heroquest you know, it was a goofy commercial on TV which was brilliant in its own way the Miniatures were wonderful, you know, the familiar or gray and I mean I still rate. The heroquest zombies are some of my favorite zombies of all time. I think they're brilliant.

So not from a Nostalgia, point of view, very much heroquest very much heroquest in terms of enjoyment. I don't know probably space Hulk because I mean even today it stands on its own merits as a really well-written game and even with the newer addition they've not really changed that much. I think it was a fantastic game. But old later on, I did get heavily into blood Bowl. So that would have been when I was at 13 or 14. And that was the, it's the second edition.

One day, the one that came with the Astro Granite pitch in the second edition. Yeah, yeah. And how'd, you know, there was that thick block a gray styrene. I love that. Absolutely love that. I mean, that's changed a lot, but fantastic game. And the, you know, as you know, I do a bit of illustration work and the illustrations in those two. Books were pretty kind of style defining for me, you know, Peter, liftin did all the black-and-white illustrations.

Yah, yah even now it's a reference that I go to heavily because, you know, he really captures that old Hammer Vibe. I think Yeah, I think those 80s kind of black-and-white drawings. It kind of defined an entire era of that part of g.w. History did it because oh yeah, they're very much changed from proving 1990 onwards. Yeah, absolutely. What a respect.

And I don't know what happened to one of those artists because it seemed like they had an awful lot of people working for them and maybe freelance artists and then all the sudden they just disappeared, you know, overnight they're gone and then they've got it recycle with a new bunch. Of people coming in and it's it's been like that. Well, I mean, you know, the new relatively new guys, obviously really, really talented artist great at what they do. But there was a big departure in

style at that point. And yeah, a lot of those guys, they kind of yeah, but they dropped off the GW map as it were. I mean, you think about who they had drawing back in the day at picnics and doing blood Bowl, all Bonner, doing basically, every awk and Goblin picture going, Jess. I mean, he's still at GW but he pretty much Define the Elder. He build them up from the ground up. Carl, critchlow did Dark future. And the hills reach in the road Trader book.

But yeah, I mean apart from Jason the others kind of. Yeah. Then I fell out of fashion. I guess they wanted a different look. I don't know what happened. Yeah I don't know who made that choice a but it's quite interesting. I've always in respite, retrospective looked at that and thought well when did they discover to this? This kind of board meeting and say okay guys, that's it.

We're going to just chop This style at this point here, this particular time and then we're going to start introducing these new artists that we picked up and Scout it out or whatever. And we're going to just change the entire look of the game. So I mean I I'd imagine it was you know wanting to maybe take the company and the hobby more mainstream because a lot of the artwork the black and white stuff. It was you know heavily influenced by 2000 ad.

A lot of the pictures from Rogue Trader especially the concrete slow ones could quite easily fit. To adjudge dread or strontium dog story seamlessly. So there was that very kind of uh, no underground. Nerdy vibe to g.w. back in the day and I think by changing the style they wanted to make it more appealing to a broader audience. You know there's a lot more color work and a lot more vibrant work as well.

I mean like John Blanche did a lot of color stuff but it was still very gritty and he had that old-world feel to it. So yeah, I mean I guess it was more a businessing business decision. I do marketing and trying to get to Mass Appeal level, I reckon. Yeah, I don't know because Brian answer was still in command as CEO, when fourth edition came out and that transfer transition to the 90s or whether he sort of stepped on the thought, well we can really make a go of this and

make it more. More more of a broader appealing product to younger kids and they yeah, it could have been, I don't know. And then of course that the changeover in the company happened in that get bought out and that kind of thing and became very much a commercial product after yeah, that's fair enough. I mean, they're a company, they're in the business of making money and they want to appeal to a broader audience so

you know, Fair pay to them. But It's yeah, it was definitely a big difference to the GW style that I first experienced when I got into the hobby. So you know, it's not to say one's better than the other. It's just kind of What you connect with those happy memories in the back of your brain. So it always feels familiar.

It makes you happy. I it's got that warm Nostalgia but you know I'm sure if someone does a podcast like this 20 years from now, they've might be talking the same way about the clock Pinsky artwork and how defining it was for them. So yeah, it's a lot better or worse. It's just a different direction. Really?

Yeah, that's it. I mean I was talk to people about saying like, you know if I introduce Warhammer to somebody now of a much younger generation, they wouldn't have the drawstrings like in terms of nostalgia, in terms of memory in terms of, you know, affection towards certain things they might look at something and like, a bit of artwork or a game cover. Something, think I do this pretty good, but it seems really outdated compared to what you

can get. Now, it's all very much Digital Arts, very much, you know, worked on working on the sensations of that, kind of A particular genre, they're looking at the minute. She's obviously look really outdated now compared to what you can get these days always. But it's a very Niche Niche hobby within a very small niche of group of people, you know to me.

Absolutely absolutely. It is a niche within a niche and I think even like John Blanche was commenting on this on one of the old Hammer groups on Facebook, you know, he was saying, you know, the plastic kits are coming out now. I just you know, leagues ahead of what we had back in the 80s.

So you know, if you're going to be as objective as possible about it, you can't honestly say I love old Hammer Miniatures because they are better because They're not but like you said it's that Nostalgia thing and it draws you to that point of in your youth where you first got into the Hobby and to us they have that kind of I know that charm and the individuality and the slightly rough or wonky lines.

Add to that whereas what you've got coming out now it's you know so well designed and put together it Looks like a wonderful finished product, but for us, it doesn't have that child, I guess. You very much. So I mean I put I put together those drastic plastic Walks from wherever they're brilliant. They're absolutely fantastic.

It's they still come with all the you know all the all the governs all that you know little grenades little backpacks side packs or weapon attachments and you know different heads and very very variant heads and that kind of thing and I thought they'll just a joy to put together. Yeah. So so, you know, even those Miniatures there from what 80 8. 87, 88, or something like that. I don't know exactly. Other can't pinpoint the time

when they were first released. But same with the b key Marines and I'll end the squats and all that kind of the Imperial Guard. I mean, there's still great kits for their age, you know what I mean? Yeah. The the beaky's the plastic beak is especially the shoulder joints had that kind of ball and socket thing, so you could maneuver them so well and articulate them to literally any

position. Wanted. I mean, I remember after that they had the was it that Space Marine, Strike Force Jazz, Goodwin did, it was the ones with a metal bodies in the plastic arms. It was the yeah. First time to have a Mach 7 armor. Yep. I mean, wonderful sculpt and I love them. I've painted up a squad of them myself but they had like flat torso parts that the arms stuck onto like that.

And, you know, even though both of these would be considered old Hammer, the you know, are T Bo ones plastic, be keys because of that. Join to me are the superior kit because you could just do any position you wanted with them. But are they better sculpt? I mean that would be a hard

argument to make. I reckon it's if you want, if you like metal more than plastic which is, you know, it's I mean I simply have a one last Metals better, but I haven't paid, you know, paint a more plastic in the last few months, few months and I haven't had done in my entire life. Because, you know, there is something about the all Plastics that I really find that have still a lot of charm to them, you know. And then it's, yeah, that's still good. I mean, the still wonderful

miniatures. Um, more sore on your Twitter. I think it was this morning or the other day. You get a line of high elf infantry. The monopole is plastic that you'll be working with them at the moment. Yeah, we got him right in front of you Matt. So yeah, just putting together that's one. I just put a shield and exclude a few on just before we started recording. So yeah, I'm going back to my roots made. This is where it all started for me, fourth edition box, set of

integers, right there. Gorgeous their beautiful beautiful. Yeah honestly. Yeah, I mean I'm not I'm not saying that I'm not saying because, you know, I'm a fan of this particular error. I'm saying, but they're good, because they're still good. There's nothing wrong with them. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, especially when you're playing, you know why I'm a fantasy about what you want to rank that up block of, you know, infantry that's the way to go. I mean They line up nicely.

Got that nice uniform look and the decent school. So I think they've aged pretty well to be honest. Yeah, I think, I think, Joe's did a wonderful work, you know,

a lot of that stuff. Anything at Jess did, you know, he really thought about, you know, and as far as they have to work within certain perimeters when then within making Miniatures, I don't know much about that particular aspect of the industry but obviously they're going to work with them as sort of conformed style so that the easy to mold and that kind of thing. But you know, they rank up nicely as you say they've got minimal detail, which is it even? Better.

Because a lot of the modern Plastics is so overly detailed that it just takes for an age to paint them and I can, I can shoot through three these in an evening. You know, mean, like, you know, it's just, I've been thinking about that and I wonder how much of that is connected with age because, you know, as I said, you know, the new Plastics are technically Superior in every way but there's so much detail.

Rammed into them. And I've got a few of them and I just, I look at them and I don't know where to start painting them. Whereas you look at the old plastic stuff and you just think right yet, I know exactly what to do with this, the de. And yeah, you can get a handful of them done in an evening. Yeah, the the new stuff. It it's very busy. Yeah. Too much. Going on for my liking? Yeah, I feel until I even I really appreciate it.

Co City Miniatures. I brought out recently for the new board game, the skeletons and Undead look really wonderful. The heroes look great. Oh yeah, I mean as just says like an enclosed game, that's that would probably be nice just to paint up as a set but in terms of actually gaming in the Modern Age against Workshop. I mean, it's just not my cup of tea personally but I can see why it would look at The Minister's think. Wow, these are really fantastic. You know, why wouldn't anybody

love these methods? Because they really designed really well and And you know credit to them because they're doing great job out there. Oh yeah. I mean they they look fantastic. But like you said it's not my cup of tea, really, I've got a load of the skaven from. What was the last Warhammer fantasy? Boxset, they did, was it her blood island or something like that. So I wonder my office. Island of Blood. That's it.

The Plastics cave. And from that I think I might have some what, my painting draw here. They still have that kind of nice simple charm to them. They're not overly busy, hold on, grab on there. See if you can see it on the camera. I mean there's not too much going on with those.

No fidgety details know you know filigree on Armor to pick out and as a box set that was a pretty good one you got you know you two armies and they still had that kind of simple aesthetic that most the box sets had but I think yeah that was the last one that kind of really followed that aesthetic and then things just got fancier and more complicated, really Yeah, and the good thing about the modern plastic is that they're designed so that they will rank up perfectly, you know, the mean

they won't have, you know, weapons and arms and that kind of thing protruding for their base and that kind of stuff. So, in that respect. Yeah. They're always going in the high altar. That settled really nice. Actually. Yeah, they really do if I wasn't too fussy, I'll probably paint a lot of those High alternate new set, but again, I'm sort of just, you know, just a stubborn old bastard. I don't stain away for the dish and stuff you know, to me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean and to be fair, the High Elves from that, if you rank them up, alongside the High Elves at your painting at the moment. I mean, he looked like, you know, elementary school kids standing. That's the university Lads. They just yeah, the size difference? Yes, yeah, quite noticeable. So yeah, you've got to go with one or the other mmm. It's like, well, I saw a photo of the recent plastic sisters of battle. And it was a photo of one of them next to one of the Jess

Goodwin metal ones. And you, you can't put them on the table together, it just looks absolutely ridiculous. Both lovely models. But, you know, they each have their place and that place is not side by side. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, falsely scale has either crept up, I think over the years and maybe it's very beneficial for me because I'm going blind, my old eggs. I need, I need my magnifying glasses now, every time I paint and look at things everything, yeah, my I can't look at stuff in it.

I need I need magnifying glasses to see stuff because I just can't see that close anymore. So maybe the scale. Creep is a good thing, you know, like it's good they're getting because I saw in the store they had like The Kill team Miniatures and there but no glories and I kind of Yeah, they do. I mean a lot bigger and maybe that's a good thing, you know. Maybe that's a nice thing for people to paint. It makes things easier to paint

for sure. Yeah, but I've got a, I've got a load of plastic Space Marines. I still need to put together and, you know, I've been looking at pictures of the newer ones, the primary primaries. Mmm. And I mean, lovely kits, but Side by I side with a plastic Space Marine you just you can't put them on a table together. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Different courses for different horses as they say. I mean I know what one man's meat is another man's poison.

There you go. Yeah I've sought I just want to make the point that, you know, we're not going to we're not trying to pooh-pooh that the new stuff, you know what I mean? Like it's all, it's all going to place in its is doing great things with a hobby, General. It's getting people in playing war games and that's the main thing, you know? Someone made this analogy. They said you know the Hobby World Is Not Like a pie by you know giving a slice to someone else. It doesn't mean that you get

less. You know the space for the hobby is unlimited. And if people like those Miniatures and I like these Miniatures, we can happily coexist and everyone can get the joy that they want from the hobby. There's no need to start, you know, kissing of your piercing levels plate, just because you disagree with a miniature think Anything that generates more interests gets more people playing.

Is going to be a good thing, because more profits for the company or companies could not just GW, but more profits mean better Miniatures, more rules, more books, more artwork. So I know and I want to see more stuff out there. So, you know, whatever gives you happiness pushing little plastic men across the table have at it. I say, yeah, that's it, man. So what are you playing out? Was to follow, Frost grave, I really Oh, my make first grade is where it's at.

I can't get enough of it. So, have you played Frost grave. Never played at me, but do you know anything about it? It's a set of wizards flying as another set of winners Wizards with their henchmen and they have like, sort of kind of AI creatures, right? Roaming the land. And yeah, it's kind of like rap. The shadow deepest isolate branches shattered it, because Owen play with a couple times. Hmm. That's by the same same Creator. Apparently, same right, that's right.

Yeah. So me and it may have been playing that, but instead of frost grave, I'm basically reskinning it as Bolter grave and proxying with a 40K Miniatures as a way of putting kind of Rogue Trader Star War band on the table. So I don't know. I'll show you a picture. Yeah, please do not. Yeah, give me a minute. Let's have a look. So you need a wizard and a henchman. Also know you need a wizard and an apprentice.

Mmm. So instead of wizards and apprentices I've used psyche has and Chaos cultists, don't you go this Oh yeah, cool. Now look right, man. Yeah, the, the Astra path is the wizard. The Imperial seike is his apprentice. And then the two guys on the left. The guy with the red face, is the chaos, completer. And then the guy with the kind of withered mutated linney's is Apprentice. So those are the leaders of our warbands and we've been using the frost grave rules to get

them on the table. That's wonderful. That's great. And let me see if I can find any more. Might save these pictures I hope we do. Right, share this with you up. Mmm. Feel like a proper old man doing this Dora. I'm just as bad and I don't worry about it. Yeah, we go. So the Imperial priest with that huge chainsaw. He counts as a barbarian. The guy next to him would be an Archer so he's got like an auto gun.

So yeah we're just literally reskinning it to pay Rogue Trader because you know, we'd like to get a game done in a few hours rather than six hours to load. Rulebook frickin and we generally drink when we game and start playing a game of a rogue Trader, when you pissed, because it's just not happening. Yeah, we got it. We're going to play a game where Traders I've never actually played the game. I think the been introduced to it once, you know, very young by inmates brother older brother.

And I just remember, just remember him swearing a lot during the game. I don't know why he was. He was, he was in the Navy or something. And, yeah, he came out like just really rough as guts, this guy, and I'm like a fan and seeing all this kind of thing. My parents were like in the living room, next, like next to us, that kind of thing, I thought about that but that's all. That's the only memories I have in him. Having his brother having the the Elder Guardians that jazz sculpted.

The same thing with the Marines, you know, they have like just a metal bodies and you stuck On the bus. I'm just that kind of thing and that we care. That's a really nice get man. Yeah, they're brilliant models. Yeah, I I think a lot of the Jazz Elder stuff still holds up very very nicely. But the man's a genius. He's a prodigy. Oh yeah, you know like anything he touches, it's like the look of the wood elves, Third

Edition, what else? Make an absolutely beautiful models and you can look at them today in modern paint jobs and they look absolutely fantastic still you know they stand up against modern stuff. Easy. Well the you know the the old world Army challenge the guys in North America. Do that six-month Army Challenger. You paint. You up an army for it. I think Spanish kale Zambia.

Yeah. So there's a guy from Spain whose Name Escapes me and he's doing an Elf Army, and it's all is good with Third Edition sculpts. It's art. Amazing me, he's my good friend. I know, I know the guy I'm talking about What's his name? I'm just trying to find it because there's there's there's a handful of really really really good Spanish painters.

And I'm awful with names and I can never remember who it's Marina, Marina, Santa Maria Maria Maria Sanchez, sorry yes I think that's the guy who you know is going to pronounce that incorrectly make as soon as you are fine but he's a lovely guy was committed in. Any times that that would offer me he showed me before he released it. And well, I thought I said about this is the best after you've ever paid by his painted, some really good stuff and he's a

really great point. That boy, these wood elves just look absolutely magic. I think he didn't all call me one year as well. Well, this is a fine grater. Yeah. Lux. I might get people confused now because I mean, like I said there's a lot of good painters out there but that would have armies is spectacular. Yeah, but I mean the old world Army challenge this year has got some absolutely fantastic armies. They really ranked cranking out this year. It's amazing.

Well I need to go and check it out because I haven't had a look at the blog for a long time now. Sadly, yeah, it's been way too busy with other stuff but I need to go back and get out because but yeah. Blogs. I don't generally check so much, but the old world Army challenge is a really good one. Yeah, I'm doing a Gilt biker Army this year for it. I'll call me. Excellent. Yeah, I'm not using the Rogue Trader Miniatures though because they're rarer than hen's teeth.

I'm using stuff from ramshackle games. Is it said bubbly, bubbly scopes. No, no. REM shackles is by a guy called Curtis and he does these really chunky rough. Kind of post-apocalyptic raising kids and he's got a great Army of squat, bikers and Bob Ali did actually do one of the heads for one of the kids, but they're really, really nice on. I might have one handy. Give me a second. All right. You might be able to see that but the lights a bit past. Yeah. Okay but you get the idea. Hmm.

Yeah I can just use of those hands, right? But yeah, I'm doing that for the old world Army challenge this year. Yeah, it's a great way to get an army done because, you know, you've got all your peers doing it and it kind of motivates you and it's one unit a month for six months, and at the end, you've got, you know what one or two thousand four paint it up. It's yeah, great idea. It's funny. You say, because like, when I started that challenge, I do that Army for Jesse and then we

wanted to our own. So the painting challenge for one affairs. Man, it's just been and I'm now in the 40K challenge for secondary and I finished that Army in two months, the motivation levels are just so high, you know. Because you know, you got a Target and I just thought, okay, that's it.

And I'm doing this high off Army as part of another challenge but that's for the fanzine but the rate of ministers, you pumped through that the concentration Focus you have is totally changed in and it sort of just centering on this one thing and then you to get, you know, you need to give you get it done and complete each month, you've got, you know. You know, you've got the sort of, you know, a time to consider, you know, getting photos in and that kind of

thing. So, it's the best thing for I think, for us these challenges. Yeah. Well I'm going to assume that your pile of Shame is as shameful as my pile of Shame. And you know any anything that helped you put a dent in that pile of Shame. It's a good thing you know definitely might. Yeah I think my polishing is steadily growing because I went from zero and went from absolutely nothing nothing and the only thing I had was one dwarf Demon Slayer.

That's all I had really yeah. About three years ago I won Demon Slayer because I had nothing I had From GW. I'd left you w years and years and years ago, man. Yeah. When it's infinity and had a lot of that stuff painted up, then we did Song of Ice and Fire, oh yeah, at the same time did GW went back into GW again and now sort of just slowly accumulating everything to stand up so you can get a view of my. Yeah. My God. What's that box at the top there? Dungeon you gentlemen.

And then those boxes. Yeah, all full of Miniatures. Well, okay, that shelf there behind the punch bag every single one of those for the villagers. Yeah. So it's not really part of Shame. It's a room of A shame and you've got the colonel there from KFC and looking over a looking over all your collection are made, you can see on the back wall, he's my spirit animal. Don't worry buddy eating those ministers who made this will surely be when he put his secret 11 S hooks and spices on those

and frightened. Yeah. Well as long as your wife approves making, you got your own little space to put your all your stuff in. Then you're right now, you sit What we you know, we we built this house about 12 or 14 years ago and the architect was like your the hobby room and I'm like, yes yes I remember. Yeah. So having this space is fantastic. No to come up here, Escape all the routes escape the real world. Get some painting done. It's lovely.

Yeah. Nice. When you need a man cave, you know, I mean like you're a hobbyist. You need him in here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well let's most of us all right. But many people may not know that you're a wonderful illustrator and I think we should now Deep dive into the origins of how you got into illustrating a illustrating yourself and how you became pretty much it. Like, a commissioned artist. Now I'm cheerful from various

company. Yeah. And Inspirations work Hmm. So whenever you're ready. Mr. Phone just dive into that. Yeah, I've been drawing all my life. I've always enjoyed sketching, but it wasn't anything I ever consider doing professionally. I did think about going to art school when I graduated high school, but I ended up doing history instead because the plan

was to become a history teacher, but that never happened. and I was, I was on Facebook about six or seven years ago, maybe and I stumbled across the the old Hammer Community page and just You know, for a laugh. I sketched up the chaos Warrior and I took a photo of it, I'll put it on the the old Hammer Community page, and you've got quite a few likes. And this guy from Alaska is name's Alex Bates.

Here he has his own small Miniatures company called Forge of ice, they do a lot of kind of fantasy pulpy Miniatures here. Recently commissioned someone to do. Turtle Dragon a really Puck a miniature. He saw it and he asked me you know, if I took commissions and it wasn't anything I'd ever consider doing and I said yeah, sure. And he asked me how much do you

charge? And I said, I have no idea because I've never drawn for money and he asked me to do a few little sketches in the style of the old Citadel catalogs. You remember back in the day before they had photos of minute. Is that have little black and

white sketches of all of them? So you asked me to do some sketches of these Miniatures in that style and it kind of picked up from there and someone Saw my Miniatures and asked me if I'd be interested in doing a Kickstarter and that was a Diego from a nightmare games and that ended up being the pantheon of chaos Kickstarter, which was huge ended up, I think, being at 45,000 Euros or something, which is pretty decent for, you know,

a niche within the niche, within a niche range of miniatures. and I think since then I've kind of Steadily being doing commission work non-stop, but when I did the pantheon of chaos one, it was mainly concept, pictures and illustrations for a book but I don't know if the books going to happen. But basically stuff from illustrators to work from her for sculptors to work from and since then I've moved more into

roleplay game illustration. So you know, if you had it like the osr or OSG, you know like the old-school gaming Revival. I don't know. Sir. It's basically modern rule modern role play games based on the Old Dungeons and Dragons first edition or the red box. So it's It's essentially the old Hammer of roleplay gaming which, you know there was a lot of overlap back in the day because you know Ian Livingstone is Steve Jackson started by importing, you know, Dungeons and Dragons to the UK.

So they've got a real thirst for that old 80 style of artwork which is pretty much what I do. So I've just been doing mainly roleplay game stuff these days based on On the old Rules from. The the 1980s and do you remember, you remember? Cause you remember the the fighting fantasy books? Oh yeah. And they're missing squawks. Yeah. Yeah. So did you have that play the advanced fighting fantasy? Roleplay game now, I didn't you familiar with it. Oh no, I'm not a big but we're sorry me.

Neither illustrate role play games. I don't play them but there was Set of roleplay game rules called the advanced fighting fantasy rules, which was kind of a step up from the fighting fantasy books, and there's a, like a Revival in those as well. A role play games based on those rules. So, like I said, it's very much old Hammer of the roleplay world and People our age, a little older, have that hankering for Nostalgia and they want to play games that remind them of their youth.

So yeah, a lot of the illustration stuff I do these days is based on that with us, you know smattering of Concept work. But yeah, maybe roleplay game these days as far as Gary chalk was a massive influence on you, then as well. Oh, yeah. Can't be understated. Gary Gary chalk is, Amazing. Let me I don't know how old he is now. I mean, he's got to be sixties at least maybe early 70s and he's even better than he ever was.

I mean, he just constantly bringing out, fantastic illustrations, he's the man's amazing, they're dumb called off. Yes, you ever see that one? Yep, that's all that Kickstarter. Yeah, yeah, that was like a Warhammer fantasy role players. In come true, they did some absolutely wonderful Miniatures for that capturing, you know, all those kind of characters that you might meet that, don't really necessarily have Miniatures. That's relatable for them man.

I love my lovely old will have a role play illustrations. The portraiture illustration. I can't divulge Gary. Who did those? But they were just wonderful. Yeah I think a lot of the war on the Fantasy. Roleplay stuff was a Tony Ackland tank. Our kite. I did those okay. Wonderful, I love them. Yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean I'm a, I'm a big Gary

chalk fan. I mean like anything, the man does is amazing but with Warhammer fantasy roleplay Tony acklin's kind of the Godfather. So to speak here. Yeah. You definitely captured that old wanna fantasy-style mc2 at it? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, so much stuff. You see, nowadays is done, you know, digitally and it might be done pen and pencil within its you know, edited online and whatnot. But yeah, I really like that old black and white, you know, pen

and ink. Aesthetic. It's You know, nostalgic thing. It takes you back to younger days. Yeah, but it's kind of like Historically. So it's like you know it's it's an art form in itself really, isn't it? Not only just building this Workshop you know error but those guys obviously studied you know, black and white artwork from the ages, you know, that kind of thing. So you know, it's just nowadays, of course.

Now everyone pushes digital artwork but I'm like you, I preferred the hand-drawn stuff, you know, it's got more people to, it's got more character to it. There was a a recent picture I saw it was things the new age of Sigma Edition that's coming out and the the cover is I don't know. What do you call those big heavily? Armored seaguar, guys. Now, are we Not Sigma, right? I think that's what the only coin Z as basic. Well, they're calling in.

Either way, you know, the cover, it was like a female one of those, you know, a big armored. If you've got these huge wings and she's flying down with his flaming, spear about to stab some other thing in the head. And I mean, it's an amazing piece of artwork and the depth, and the different levels of the shading. It's amazing. But I mean, it's nothing I could do it's well beyond my capabilities, but But it doesn't really grab me in the way that old school black and white artwork.

Does, you know, when you look at the old Fighting fantasy books, The Lone Wolf books, Gary chalk, Illustrated, you know, you could just, you could lose yourself in those black and white pictures. You just look at them for hours, but Russ Nicholson was another good one, fantastic art for me. I've never been a big fan of color artwork in gaming book. X. I I like pretty much black and white exclusively and you know,

you see some of the line work. And you know, these guys are using these ultra-thin pens and brushes and they get these really beautiful lines and stuff and the intricacy of it is what really draws my eye and you could spend hours as I said, looking at it, but in terms of color work, Look at someone like Carl karpinski and, you know, the stuff that he was doing, 4gw

back in the day. I mean, you could easily imagine him painting and Napoleonic era general or something, you know, the level of his artwork and his ability to use calories is amazing. It's up there, he's obviously classically trained and he has that almost semi Historical vibe to the work that he does and you know even he does a lot of digital stuff now and I can't tell the difference between his digital stuff and his brush stuff.

So in the hands of the correct person, that is a great tool to have but It's a generational thing I guess, you know people of a certain age grow up just drawing digitally, they don't ever really use pen and pencil. And I do mean, if I was starting now, maybe I'd be the same because not having to Chuck a canvas or a piece of paper away because you misplaced a line is, that's quite appealing, to be honest.

I think, if you're bringing out Anything that's hoping to appeal to as broad an audience as possible, then it's going to be digital. A lot of the the old-school Revival guys, the guys drawing, roleplay illustrating roleplay books, based on the older sets of rules are exclusively doing pen and ink or, you know, pencil and ink. So I think, yeah. For the, the little corner of the Hobby World, We inhabit then pencil winning is still the way to go because that's what people want to see.

They want as we keep mentioning, they want that connection to their Youth. They want that. Nostalgia. They want that familiarity. Because you know, all the stuff that we grew up with, it's gone. Now there's not going to be any new versions of that, unless someone puts the effort in to come out with a new stuff. And if it's new, you still want it to look old. You don't want new looking old? It's yeah, yeah. I know what you mean? Yeah. You don't want 3D printed real situation.

Yeah. Or three days at designed, you know, when a fantasy roleplay Minister, that's maybe. Sometimes you do you know I could just depends. Maybe will be just all 3D printing stuff in the future. You know what I mean? Like it's all based on user creation stuff. Now, isn't it? Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, going back to the Dunkel

do stuff. You know the guy who does this sculpting's is guy named Sonny and he did the first Uncle dorf Kickstarter in the traditional way, everything was done with green stuff but then the second one he did, I think the majority if not all of it. Digitally, but when you see them, you know, in your actual hand and you compare the Miniatures from the first and second kickstarter's, you know, they do fit perfectly side by side. So it is possible to digitally sculpt and still have that old

Hammer, old-school aesthetic. If that's where you are coming from as an artist. You know, digitally sculpted stuff, doesn't have to be fancy elaborate and over-designed. It is quite possible to do it in a very old-style if that's the influence that you grew up with. But yeah, a lot of the digitally sculpted stuff is very, very busy and crammed full of detail. It's, it's quite a rare to find proper old hammering smile, And inspired digital Scopes these days.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Well they're around but in very very small companies out of someone's backyard all back shed or whatever. Yeah they're around. Yeah yeah I mean that's the thing, isn't it? I mean you know 3D printing and digital design is basically you know introduce this Equalizing element to the Hobby. You know before if you wanted to release your own range of villages, you had to, you know, hire a concept artist, then hire a sculptor.

And then you have to get them cast up and molded. But you know, if you can Fork out, you know, three or four hundred dollars for a 3D printer, you can start doing stuff in your garden shed nowadays, and you do see all these little operations and guys popping up Here, There and Everywhere churning out stuff that the bigger companies might not be bothering with, but there is still that demand for. I saw a kick start of the other day for, you know, Thunder Warriors. Know, I don't know.

So, you know, like if you look at the like the Horus heresy, and before the Space Marines were created by the emperor, he had the Thunder Warriors, who were his Basically he's first attempt at Genetically Enhanced Warriors and GW did actually produce some Miniatures for them. Kind of, do you remember? They did a range of Miniatures and it was a Space Marine arm of Through the Ages and they've got the mark one Mark III. Yeah, but one arm was the Thunder. Warrior armor, right?

Why they had the Open Face helmets with the goggles and the Boom of hair. Okay, you got one, I've got a minute, I've got the catalog, maybe the camels in there. Maybe I'll just check as you're talking sir. So they did come out with Maybe they want to fund a warrior skull. It's one holding a Bolter and one holding we go. Got it. Gotcha. Oh, hell yeah. There we go. That's him. So the guy in the top my left corner. That's a thunder armor. Yeah.

Now they actually, there's two. There's one of the Bolder in this one with a like a power Acts or halberd. And there may be a third one but I might be wrong about that. But basically those guys were like the, the Proto Space Marines. Yeah, I mean, they're bigger than Space Marines tougher than Space Marines, but maybe not below the custodian, you know, I'm chomping at the bit to get squat a thunder Warrior love, ask whatever, but GW never made

them. But then some guys like well, you know, did you leave make them on, you know, whatever sculpting software they're using. Get them off of my 3D printer and get someone to cast a vote for me. So it's a great time to be in the hobby because somewhere someone somewhere is doing what you want and you could literally find any possible miniature of any kind of Unmade character, that you could ask for it's a

fantastic time to be a hobby. Yeah, that is it's putting is putting the tools into the hands of the creators and it could be anybody. And then it's just up to them to train themselves or, you know, have the initiative to make something out of that and we've got guys in Japan, is it? David? Is making all that test of Honor samurai. Oh yeah. Amazing stuff. Mate. For 3D printing. That is incredible. It. I mean, that's the best terrain

I've ever seen. in my life like, you know, you could have commercially by anything like that that standard Equal that big like three or four level castles? Well, it wasn't me. Yeah, he's got an incredible set of yearly, but it will probably cost a fair amount to get it. But then once you've got all the files, you can print as many as you want off, you know, in that kind of thing. So you can have an entire room full of castles if you wanted to. Yeah.

But that's the thing because it's digital you could scale it up and down. I mean you could print them off. Yes millimeter scale. You could do, you could treat. You can print the whole map of Japan if you wanted and just populate it with castles. Yeah. Yeah. And he does nekron terrain as well. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, he does. Yeah, no, no. It's it's amazing. And it's just gonna get better. 3D tours. 3D printings. I mean still in this infancy. Hmm. There's you know so much room

for improvement. It's pretty good now. But 10 years from now, it's going to be even better. It's going to be amazing. Yeah, yeah. Not basically you know, As we were saying, 3D printing is, like I said, it's in its infancy and even now it's pretty good but it's going to be amazing. Like 10 years, 20 years time.

I mean I do wonder, you know, is Games Workshop gonna Venture into this in a couple of decades and start you know, selling stl's as opposed to Miniatures because Eventually, everyone is going to have a 3D printer if they're in the hobby. Yep. Yeah, I think so. I think it's going to be part of our hobby to one point, you know, we're going to have, you know, certain minutes as we can't find any more STL printed. Hopefully you know, I love my

little bit models. But obviously, you know, I'm going to come to a point where I've reached the amount of stuff that I can possibly cope with that, you know, keeping my room and painting, and I've got my complete collection, maybe the something transfer my interest later on, like the samurai stuff that I'm keen on doing that, you know, doing historical stuff and I'm printing out castle at Medieval castles and that kind of thing. Yeah, that's that's definitely a

benefit down the track. But yeah, like, you know, the Mighty Fortress. I would love to have a Mighty Fortress but the the ability to actually print one out and have it in actual, you know, like a resin form, a be awesome. So that kind of thing and having like the attackers Cedars sets and that kind of stuff having people do that and was a saw one. Just recently, maybe you've seen it, there's one for the TalkBack Wagon from Rogue Trader.

Yeah, that was brilliant to mean that's just absolutely awesome. I mean that gets me excited to have those kind of things. Absolutely where you can get a Cuz slightly scaled up versions of the, the Rogue Trader Space Marine dreadnoughts. Okay, so we're back again. Sorry about that. We had a bit of another check and mate. Yeah, choosing a Mite. Thanks again. Sorry about the interruption, but we're back again. We would we have a refill? So that's all right.

Yeah, that's that's finished. Yeah, time for the cocktails. Are they going? I wish I could do any one of those. May one day, one day when the coronavirus has done and dusted, you have to make you all that, make your way down to me and we'll get a gaming or something. Yeah, definitely. So, tell me what I was thinking about. So a lot of the old Hammer Miniatures are quite hard to come by.

I mean, there are some that were produced in huge numbers and you can buy them for next to nothing but there's a lot of stuff that still tough to find something worth checking for people, looking for old hammer style, images is a Ral, partha Europe, rpe I don't know if you've ever bought anything from them but they've got a lot of stuff sculpted by a lot of the old GW Miniatures. Very, very reasonable prices. So let me share a photo with you.

These are some ogres that I painted up a while ago. Nice. So I just I just painted a whole batch of the make forum for our good mate and mutual friend Yoshi. Oh really. Oh nice. Yeah for his web store. Yeah you're hoping to know for I'm here. Oh you know when it comes to Old Hammer a lot of people you know, they really want to get the Miniatures from the back in the day but you know, in some cases you need Deep Pockets to get

your hands on those. So I think letting people know of modern day a more affordable Alternatives is something that we should all do because you know, Being old Hammer doesn't shouldn't be limited to people with Deep Pockets.

That's true too. Yeah because I mean we could we could probably run off about 50 models that would really love to have but then you know the the the cost and time involved in trying to acquire those models and then trying to find out they're not recasts and all that kind of thing at all the drummer associated with that being tried ripped off on eBay and all those kind of things were hurdles. You need to jump through.

Yeah, finding Alternatives like that from reputable companies that have good people behind them and they're trying to make an honest living and making good models, and giving the The, you know, the duties of sculpting these in designing, these models to, like local artists and that kind of thing is only. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I've got nothing but praise for, you know, Ralph alpher Europe because, you know, great communication. Great service.

Great prices, lovely Miniatures. They've got a the bubbly ogres. They've got Kev Adams. Goblins, they've got Kev Adams, dwarves. They've got a lovely loaded minute. Is so yummy. I mean, II, think you could fill a whole show just with that showing off what's available nowadays for people who want old Hammer at least style Miniatures without having to go through the rigmarole that you mention of finding the authentic stuff. Maybe we need to have you back then most of aren't you?

Give us a whole show based on what companies are out there now selling the old Hammer stuff. I'm a boring Bastard with nothing better to do. Same time, ready? We can drink together and share the wonders of the Hobby. In the new generation shall be a lot of my liver would appreciate, you know, getting more people into the old hammer style of gaming is got to be a good thing, isn't it? Absolutely. Like, even like, you know, now, You're talking about the, you know, the recording and denim.

The Wizards game frostbite Frost was it frost, frost gray pants gray, otherwise had frostbite. I don't know why some frostbite nothing had mine actually with frosted. Yeah, that's kind of like that because the North Star they have

that was wonderful. Kevin De L'Amour is painted Miniatures. I've got really into the sort of thing, but background to it because it reminds me of Third Edition, one, a fantasy in a That kind of aesthetic setup so that kind of style that all those kind of old hammer things like what yoji's doing with his own soul or game or it's like a ball playing miniature game so it's a good mesh of role-playing

and skirmish. But yeah, I think yo, yo G is a good example of, I think what we should all consider old Hammer to be. often people get a bit snobbish or elitist about old Hammer, you know, unless it's vintage Miniatures and unless it's vintage rules, you're not doing it properly and to me it's always been more about a spirit and attitude towards gaining rather than The exclusivity of it.

I mean, you know, like I mentioned before I playing Frost grave, you know, there's a couple of old Hammer Miniatures in my wall band, but not all of them, but I'm trying to replicate that feeling, we had as kids, you know, rolling Dice and moving these Miniatures, that we've created this narrative form. And I mean, to me old Hammer should be an attitude more than what you have. Bility to buy and Yoda is a perfect example of that.

I mean, you know, that's a good point to that's you know, you've got things like Diego's company producing, you know authentic-looking old Hammer Miniatures at a very affordable price and you're good now, delta T, good casting. I mean, the casting, you know, on those models now and much better than what they were all those years ago as well. Yeah, yeah. And I don't want, you know, you can't be dismissive dismissive of stuff, just because it's not

30 years. Sold. You know if someone is you know, 45 now and they grew up playing the old games. And now they want to make something as an omage to what they did is in their youth to me, that's old Hammer. I mean, that is what Oldham is all about. It's, you know, it's your attitude to gaming. It's going out there and creating and making something so yeah. I mean, I think it's important to be Of all these new images and new games as long as they have the old Hammer, you know,

ideals behind the really. Yeah, I actually left the old Hammer Community page a year or so ago and then me and a bunch of other guys, we started a new page which we originally and

imaginatively named old hammer. because we yeah we kind of got sick and tired of the leakiness of the old Hammer community and the fact that you were just getting post after post after post of unpainted Miniatures, boxes still wrapped in cellophane, you know, We want to see people painting stuff, doing stuff playing stuff making stuff. I mean, you know, showing that you've got the ability to spend money on eBay is not a hobby achievement. So, yeah, we started a new group recorded.

Just old hammer and the ideas. We want to see people who are painting their Miniatures, putting them on the table playing games with them. People with, you know, a similar attitude to gaming. We don't care if you Miniatures a 30 years old or, you know, 10 years old. But you know, you're going out there. You're doing stuff and having fun.

That's what we want to see. So yeah, I completely understand what you're saying about, you know, that kind of lack of attention for what I consider real. Achieve with them in a fanzine takes effort and anyone who's not liking and commenting on a post about a fanzine, what are you doing? You know, I when I'm online and I'm looking for hobby content and hobby related stuff, I don't

care how old the Miniatures are. I just want to see stuff being made painted played by people who share my hobby ideals. I guess. You know, they want to roll dice have fun. Have a few drinks. They're not playing competitively, they'd rather focus on the narrative. Of then win at all costs. you know, I think The the idea of you know, when they introduce your Warhammer tourneys was kind of the beginning of the end for some people like us because it's not supposed to be a competitive

thing. It's supposed to be a narrative crafted between like-minded people and you know Nigel Stillman I think is the epitome Of that attitude. You know, the rules are still Mania. I think you mentioned them maybe in your blog as a friend of

mine. Tom Tom Grove and he actually he sent an email to Nigel Steelman and he replied to him and he posted it on his blog and maybe I was like three Three consecutive months of this interview ran for and they discuss this attitude to gaming and, you know, the the Stillman ethos as it were. And to me, that is that is old that way of thinking encapsulate, what the hobby means to me, so I don't care what Miniatures you using, or what rules you using. If that's the way you think that

to me is older one. Yeah, it's good to mention Nigel because he's made a big impression on me. Because when I went, when I worked in the studio, with all those years ago, I met Nigel. But I didn't know who he was. He was his old work in the top and the second floor in this little sort of sectioned off part of the, of the, of the, of the studio there, like a, like, an old man, man, he was in his laboratory. You know, considering all these ideas and I went up there one day.

And he's a lot easier. He'd made the biggest impression on because he was such a nice guy. Yeah, came across, is this most approachable person that you could come up to many time to talk to him, and you'll be like, you know, could just, you know, would give you the time of day and he saw coming here come and have a look. Have a look at this. I was I had to ask him about

lizard-men or something. I think we're doing ilysm and think the fifth edition at that time and I was wanting to get sort of like an idea of what they look like and all this kind of stuff and using give me and someone said I'll go and see Nigel because he's writing the book for it. So he He'll fill you in on a bit of a, bit of a dossier about what Lisbon, or that kind of stuff. So, first, I went to see wayne England. Another champion. Bye.

I love you. I know, I think, I don't know if he's still with us. I think maybe he died. He passed away a few years ago, unfortunately. Yeah, but true legend is an absolute wonderful guy. The drink, I'm still back on my third wine. So my tears. Again, it is again. Yeah, good to have you here. And yeah, well time chatting with us so what did we gain? England.

Whining went yes. And if the great artists, but for me Wayne England, whenever I hear his name I always think of that dwarf Army. Mmm-hmm it did a door for me in white dwarf the blue and white dwarf Army. Absolutely phenomenal. Now I got one picture, one of these units but that's one of the unit's there. Yeah yeah. Amazing army, absolutely amazing. I actually, I decided to do a kind of small britannian warband based around Wayne England's war paint Scheme. Nice?

I-i'm, not really keen on doing a mounted britannian. Army kind of leaves me a bit here, but the britannian Footlights by the Perry's for I guess it would still be Third Edition, wouldn't it? Because in the We'll have a army but for Third Edition, there were no foot nights but then they published an article in white dwarf and they told you to basically cut it out and stick it in the book.

You know, those footnotes to me. If some of the best Miniatures gwd ever made and they're wonderful, but like, a rarer than hen's teeth, their Crusade, a Miniatures, do a really great range of the Third Crusade miniatures. And they just fit perfectly with the britannians. So yeah, the way in England, I mean spider that for me, what's the other company? Now, that's out that Michael is

doing some really good stuff. Like really amazing looking Miniatures, all in mantle, and also designed by hand will come to me very soon, it's quite famous now. I think they're doing a lot of kind of the War of the Roses. 100 G's Wars are 100 Year War ministers. Frank castings. That's it. Claymore! That's it! They're doing some brilliant stuff. Absolutely Claymore stuff is amazing, man. That's got me excited about historical moment.

That's like it's I'm looking at this stuff and thinking I want to play historical playing those Miniatures, you know. Yeah, I've got a load of historical Miniatures of been a just waiting for an excuse to get painted. I did some I don't have a photo of those actually, but I picked up some plastic Mormons a while back, but it's just a matter of finding the right rule set. So what I'm thinking of, have you ever played Lord of the Rings now, I have known.

Artwork ever played it may be many years ago. When it first was like a published rule set from Rick place in white dwarf magazine. Then like I think I had like a really sort of basic rule set in the magazine for it. When GW got the, you know, the deal with I guess new line Cinema, to make the games based around the movies will see a lift Co cover Tori to do the rules. I think Rick proceed to the rules, man. That's Rick's baby run rings. Yep.

Oh really. Okay. So they also did some historical versions based on those. So old immediately, grab a book So they did a pirate version. Okay, the high seas. Yeah, yeah, they did a wild west version and it's based around the same mechanics of The Lord of the Rings game, and some Kyle line, basically, you know, did a Dark Age historical supplement for Lord of the Rings so you could use those rules to play, you know, Norman invasion, you know, Us the Third Crusade, that kind of thing.

So, I'm considering using those rules for Historical Dark Age Warfare because they're really streamline the play really quickly. They got rules for, you know, Heroes with special abilities. And I don't want to play a huge, huge mass battle with and I just want to war band or whatever. So, yeah, I think that might be the way to go. Cool. Okay. Well, that sounds interesting. You still got all those actually

go to, I sent you. I actually ended up trading most of them but I kept enough for a warband could only man that's good. It was well I was supposed to go to boil 2020. But these are the coronavirus happened. And one of my mates guy called Colin Murray, he was going to be running a game of warbands. Invading Lush Korea, using I think Third Edition rules. So I kept all the characters from that Japanese Army.

I got a few in trade and I was going to paint them up as a nipponese warband but of course, didn't happen the pandemic. But They are, they sitting there on the back? Back back. Burner waiting to be painted at some point. No, that's good. I kind of hope you going to do those because, you know, like the sea actually, do something with those and we can probably play a game at some point, maybe test of water or something like that in the future. Because it's something down for

that. Yeah, Mi but I'm going to save an additional rules and ever played it but I'm very interested in it because I love games which have a good theme and then add cards to the game as well that you've got some kind of car mechanics can throwing you know throw it throw a spanner in the works for your opponent. Now I love all this kind of it's a good set of rules.

Yeah, it's a good. I think it's a really good set of rules, but, yeah, I just need to get on the table basically, and give it a go. Yeah. So well, you know, so many games and so little time, a means story of Our Lives. That's it man. Yeah, that's it. I tell you again, that's worth playing Judge Dredd Miniatures game. But not the current one from Warlord. The previous one from Mongoose games. Mmm, it's a, I think it's like a caddy.

It's a D20 or D12 system, I don't remember now but it's an absolutely amazing set of rules for sci-fi Skirmish and you know, you've got water, you know, rules for the judges and see defense squads and mutant so you could easily put anything you want them table using it. For sci-fi Skirmish. I reckon it's the way to go. It's brilliant. But I mean, it's a few years, you know, out of print now, but you can get your hands on that. Well, well worth playing. Yeah. Sadly the Judge Dredd.

Like the license just does not appeal to me at one iota but I better just because an old camera. Yeah. I've never I've never got into Comics. I've never been into Comics at all. Never been as a Judge, Dredd. I've never Never seen the Fascination by it but I can see how its influenced the look of Rogue Trader for sure. You know. Absolutely yeah. Yeah. Now now seeing it now I can see. Definitely has been a big influence of it but I heard that

it's really good. I think I think antechambers worked on that set of rules for longest and I did remember seeing it in our local game store all those years ago being played. So and I heard that it had a really good reputation as a really good system. So, but yeah, it's well well worth the try, but, you know, it's all comes down to the time, doesn't it? I mean, you've got to make choices about what you play, you know, you're a dad. I'm a dad and both work full

time. You've got a kind of take the games where you can get them and then you've got to play what everyone else around he's playing and, you know, Maybe when we retire, we can try all these obscure rules. I don't know. But not now. Hopefully very soon. What a 7 is going to be in the, yeah, that's right. Fingers crossed that you hopefully, my name is across me. Yeah, yeah. Will be a bullet for you, then bring bring it with it, but, yeah, I think it was. You just gonna do what your

passion is, passions lie. I mean, in I'm interested in a lot of the modern stuff, even though make many people might think that, you know, I'm not but even two fat ladies, they're sort of darker. A judge rules are brought out now. I'm quite interested in giving those ago to sympathizers. I think it's a pretty simple to

see. I think that those set of rules they have like a car mechanic to in it, which I quite like, and I like those guys, I like, I like, the people behind the, the game system, the people of the creators, like, which Clark, and that kind of thing, they really good people. So yeah, I think he produces a really good games. I think there's a lot of good guy, play A Song of Ice and Fire. If I can get a game in, I'll play it, and it's another see, the rules for that, they good.

Yeah, they're really good. It mean if you really wanted one a fantasy kick, I mean, that's the closest thing you're going to get to it in a sort of modern style tabletop wargame, right? The Miniatures are all plastic, they're all you know obviously you know 3D design but they're still nice, they're nice to paint. Good details, really good type rule set. That's it's like a living rule book so that they're sort of giving updates online.

So you don't have to buy a new The game basically you can just just get the the app which is free on your phone, or tablet, or whatever. But yeah, it's a good game and you know, that's how we sort of got back into one more fantasy through that, right? And it's but you know, in its own right. It's still a really, really good game. So yeah, there's a lot of good modern equivalents out there, like frostbite, Frost grave and star, grave, and all this kind of stuff.

It's sort of gotten. So these old Hammer kind of elements to it. But yeah, reskinned And you know what I mean? Absolutely. I mean the other day me and my but rich and I we played a couple of games about Dragon rampant. Oh yeah what's that? Like it's fun a lot of fun. It's very I do also work, somewhat generalized. So you don't have race-specific Army lists. You've got for example Elite Cavalry.

And Elite Cavalry have the same stats regardless of whether they're human goblins Orcs or whatever because the idea is Elite Cavalry user is Elite Cavalry. And I mean if you want to represent the difference you can put more or less Miniatures on the table.

So for example, if you had Ali tretonin, Cavalry, you might but six mounted Knights down, but if you wanted Elite Goblin care, or you might put 12 wolfed Riders down to represent the lower quality, but, you know, each unit has the same amount of, you know, wound or health points, and they also have randomized activation, and anytime you want to move a unit or Get a unit to perform an action, you have to roll over a certain number and

if you don't get that number you lose initiative and it passes to your opponent's. So, you know, choosing to activate specific units with a higher, activation roles of risk. It's safer to choose the easier to activate unit. So there's that tactical element of it. And it kind of Nicely represents the fog of War. You don't know what's going to happen. You don't know how long you've got Initiative for. I mean, some people find it a bit too generalized because of the lack of race specific.

I mean this but I really like it. I recommend it is well worth a try. Okay. Well I don't know if we've ever breached the subject before but I play a lot of remote gaming and since of a special lot of people plants a lot. Yeah and that's like doing war games and that kind of stuff. Remotely with people all around the world. So what we should do, you know, we should play remotely at some point because we're in Japan, perfect time zone. We can't complain about that. Absolutely.

And if you get a Sunday free, let's get, let's get some games in. Might use either I set up here or you sit up there and we need this camera and that's it. That's all you need. You know, that's all you need and you got Zoom. That's all you need. Might use have it like a good view of the table the person. On the gas side, has their dice make all the roles and you just move all the Miniatures and that's it. I've had some great success with it.

Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of people I know have been using a tabletop simulator app or yeah, digitally. That's like playing a game digitally. Yeah. Yeah, try that one at all. I don't have tabletop simulator, right? I'm interested in it. But then I'm thinking, yeah, it would be easy because the all the set up time and all that kind of things taken out of the equation than, you know, be more time, down or time for gaming. But then I love, you know, painting and moving ministers around.

So it's kind of like it's the analog style for me that I prefer. Yeah, well, I completely agree with you. I mean, you know, I I like buying Miniatures and painting them and Playing games is a way of justifying the money that I spend on Miniatures. Yeah, you know. So actually gaming with them, is kind of secondary to buying them, modeling them and painting them. and, you know, playing games is kind of like The. Medium for social interaction and communication.

I mean when I game I like to drink, I like to chat and you know, again that I could finish in two hours I'll happily spend 6 hours playing if it means, I can shoot this shit. Have a few beers, eat some snacks to me. Gaining should be a social event gaming, shouldn't be for me. The, the actual ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is, Spending time with my friends and gaming is just the medium of which we do that. So, yeah, I mean purely digital

gaming. As far as tabletop stuff is concerned, doesn't really appeal to me that much. Hmm. But, you know, give him the current situation, maybe that's the only option for a lot of people. Yeah, it was good. That PS4's, you know, being out of the moment at the minute and it's probably putting that pre-orders A PS5 down. I don't blame ya. When was the last time you actually rolled dice with someone in person? Very recently, was in Golden week.

I went down to cassia and played second edition, 40K with Paul all and made him a call and when John. Yeah so we do it regularly might we do it once a month. Lovely stuff. Yeah. And the other stuff I rolled dice with remotely and you were on the subject of second edition. Are you painted up those mad boys? I think I've paid up one that you to send me a mad boy, you can send him a boy. You send me a free food. Dude. You sent me a bad moon. I think was a bad moon knob. I paid him up.

And so, did. It was Bloody good me. Well done. Yeah, thank you. And yeah, I paid it up. I paid. I paid up 1,000 points of bad moon so far. Okay. Bye trades. Confused. Yes you sent him an evil, something wrong stuff. Yeah, now you send me a little wolf stuff and that's right. That's right. A bloody would have one of that that bad moon stuff yet. Yeah, that's him. Next is to a garden. That's a 40K skull Garden. Are you sure it's not Gardens a

stomper sorry store for us? Going to say, Stompers the Epic scale. Like the miniature miniature Garden type thing. Yeah. They'd like a tin box which is small at the smallest one. Then I had the stomper than they had the like the the slasher garden and the mcboyd gargan. Yeah. Cool. The the tap made sense. Yeah. The tin box were the ones based around their enemies. So I got the old our team but Space Marines is not squatting but yeah, yes, that's right. Yeah, cool. Okay, let's go.

I didn't know they had that. Okay. Nice. Yeah, so that guy's actually the pilot for this, right? Okay. And it's good. They've gone to more of the rounded shape plates rather than the square bulky slapped on bolted, on. Kind of look, which I don't, particularly, like, Because I just love big Stompy robots. Yeah, killer cans. Have got dreadnoughts. I've got a mega dread from the Forge, World one. Mmm, again, I've got the

stomper. So I've got basically, at least one of everything each size, hmm. Have you seen this one from Ford world? Now my Oh okay. Cool. That's him next to a rogue Trader Dreadnaught. Wow. Okay. So he's a big boy. Yeah I take it the head rules for these these things. Yeah. And their books and that kind of thing that brought out Yeah. Yeah, they did. But I mean, I've not actually played a game of 40K using Games Workshop rules for, he's about

four or five years, right. Have you ever come across one page 40K? No, no, I haven't. But this guy, he basically came out with a really condenser rules for playing modern style 40K, you know, huge armies. Yeah. And he condense them down to that one page of a 4. And then you've got your army lists and me and my mates have basically being playing that to get our four-week, a full-size armies on the board.

Because, you know, if you want to play modern style 40K, you need at least, you know, for books before you can put anything on the table and, you know, it's It's more effort than willing to put in. I mean, it's great for younger guys, maybe. But you know, not not for us Oldies, But was too. But I've got the answer for you back and you probably you probably see this coming. But epic epic space met my friend. It's what everything. It covers everything you have

mass battles. You've got all the vehicles you could ever dream of that. They've never even probably produced with you. And you can have all the fun of all the flavor, the rules contained in one, very small booklet of rules and yet, Big scale game animal and written by, you know, Jarvis Johnson as well. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. I mean the man knows his way around a set of rules. Yeah.

Yeah I've never played epic. I mean, if any blood balls anything to go by the man's a genius, in my opinion, well actually three of them getting three of my most loved games or Games Workshop. Space mean, epic blood bowl and advanced. He requests or written by him. Knows how to write rules. You know that blood bowl is so

simple. It's, you know, you can pick it up in an, in an afternoon but it's so tactical and the turnover phase and, you know, I mean, it gets a little complicated when your team progresses. But you know, as your team's progressing and gaining more skills, you're gaining more gaming experience. So you You grow as a player as your team grows so it's not really an issue. Yeah blood or was an amazing set of rules. Yeah. Absolutely. Did you see that guy who posed

up in Japan here? But a few months ago, like the first edition set, by the box, set on the trade group for 100 bucks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is gonna sound. Horrible, legionaries is from South America, but I don't remember which country nice guy loves terrain and loves tanks. So, yeah, we ended up trading I think I sent him some 40K tanks and I ended up getting some nekron stuff and some tyranids stuff off him.

I was very tempted, very very tempted to get that first edition of blood Bowl but mean my understanding. And my, if my memory is Correct. The first edition of blood Bowl was basically based around the Warhammer rules. All the players have the same stats that is will have a counterparts and he was only from the second edition onwards it really became blood bowl that we know. Yeah. So that's what kind of put me off because I thought it's a nice object to have.

But I'm not going to really use it and yeah I'm a player and painting or collector. So I didn't end up going for it, but yeah, I think it was pretty pretty different in this first iteration competitive wanted but no ministers, one thing and Headliners cardboard, standings and me. They did have Miniatures. Oh, really but, but knowing the game. You have to buy them separately. Uh-huh. They had some fun.

Goddamn it look like there were metal Miniatures for the very first edition of blood Bowl. I think they had literally that one miniature for each race. You couldn't buy a whole time during okay, that sounds that sounds like it was back in the early 80s like me days or yeah. Yeah, came in. Well, I mean, you remember I went Trader came out for the Dark, Eldar on dark space elves. It was literally one minute jr. Had. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah. It kind of fit in with how they used to produce managers back in the day. You know, are there we go. So I load this up to the screen. Might be able to see it. All right. Oh yeah. Wow. That was that first edition blood Bobgoblin. Okay. Wonderful. I've never seen it before. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they had literally a handful of them but then once of second edition came out, they produced teams for all the races. I'm a big big fan of the second edition, blood bomb.

Initials, I think there's some of the coolest Miniatures GW ever made. What, I think the biggest? I mean, the big thing, the big difference between the second and third editions, was that when you go, that's right. Teams had race specific positions. Dark Elves. Had a sassy scenes and Dwarves had a sort of skeleton, Undead had white mummies, but in the second edition, all the teams. Have the same positions yet like a door. Flying man.

An elf lineman, a human lineman and then dwarf blocker elf. Blocker humor blocker. And they looked like they were actually wearing sports specific gear. Yeah. Yeah, whereas by the time you got to Third In addition, it was like they basically take and Warhammer fantasy battle Miniatures and just clipped off the weapons. Yeah. So I was living big fan of that so clearly you can see it. Ah that's an undead chant and didn't stop what my right, you know, I guess human blocker and blocker.

Right. Gotcha. Yeah, humans laugh way. It looks like Elvis. Yeah, that's nice. One more. And oh, yes, the classic. I'm gonna write stuff that you could, you vote to talk was scale, creep, look how small that ogre is next to human. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean for me, blog post second edition Miniatures are, you know, my my thing like I love them, absolutely love them. How many teams do you got now

for second division night? Unfortunately, just the one I get of a football team but I sold it off. Cupid, Lee May 29. I do I didn't, if you're not if you're not playing it you're not putting on the table. You think. What's the point? You sell it off and then you regret it? It's yeah. He's vicious cycle, isn't it? Mission assignment? I know exactly where you're coming from with that. Okay, okay. Well, I think we might have to wrap it up mate.

Unfortunately, because my little boy is going to be dragging me down stairs. Like some kind of goblin heard master. And yeah, yeah. So thank you very much again, mr. Forbush will definitely have you back on the image again, mate. We're going to talk about why he said all these alternative companies producing all these wonderful workin for us to enjoy. You know, old hammer or, you know, New Hammer, whatever it might be, but definitely have you back on the right. So we can talk about that.

So we can make that more aware than people. Who don't know about, always wonderful companies out there. Looking forward to Italy, but I've really enjoyed toy because we've known each other. We've sort of communicated correspondent online, a lot, but we've never actually talked to each other or surgery, so I think it really, isn't it? Yeah, it's been quite a few years might so yeah, thank you very much for taking the time to come on and to do that.

With us and it was being honest, enjoyed it. Like I've done my third glass so that always means is the end of the show. Well, go downstairs. Enjoy your dinner. Open another bottle and yeah, enjoy your Sunday. May thank you very much. Take it easy. Josh. Okay. Thanks very much again. Take care. See you. Bye. Bye. Hi guys. Welcome back to the end of our

podcast discussion. I hope that was enjoyable to listen to. It was really good to speak to him and I really apologize again for this, the style of the editing that I had to do in order to cut it down to a reasonable length and also take out anything irrelevant. And now discussion that would have made it an enjoyable to listen to for you guys. So we'll have we'll have must have her back at some point in the future. Maybe we talk about blood Bowl, I don't know.

We're he seems very passionate about it. I'm really getting my swing back into blood Bowl again. We've got a new Facebook page if you want to go and check that out. I just started a couple of days ago and we're getting ready for a painting challenge. So to paint up our third edition teams so go and check that out. If you have Facebook and you want to be part of a new community, that's an extension to the crown of command, of course. Yeah, please go and do that.

Go and search for blood ball. Third Edition, you'll find it. And joining our discussion, share your team, share your games. I would love to see this. I love, I love to see blood ball feature on YouTube. There are there are maybe I think there's one. I think there's one video that I've seen. That's Michael Becker. That's at least a couple videos. Will the old ones that he's done sort of like a time-lapse kind

of thing with them. I would like to see Third Edition on YouTube, at some point because it is one of the all-time classic. Names. Nothing to dishonor the second edition version of course, it's really close to people's hearts and I can understand that. But yeah, Third Edition I think was the turning point in many respects, too many of Games Workshop games during the 90s, it sort of brought a new era and ushered in a new fan, group of

fans to love blood bowl. And it's still a course in existence today and its many iterations along the way. But I don't, the game's changed that much. But yeah, so traditions where it's at for us. We love all the color and Splendor and all the funky-looking figures ugly or not.

But yeah, they're really cool. And yeah, we hope to bring blood Bowl to our discussions either on the podcast or in video form on YouTube in the future but there was a painting challenge if you want to get involved with that. You can contact me through my email if Facebook's not your thing. That's fine that's that The Chronic command at gmail. Sorry the credit command podcast at gmail.com has really no more emails.

You know. Yeah email me and I will end you know correspond with me that way. Get your photos in or your team. You got you got like a million gold. Crowns to spend on your team and including your fan fact and re-roll counters. The reason why is that we want to have it? Make a legit legitimate. Sort of starting team. And then you paint that and hopefully you will use that team in some kind of like International League. That's kind of the aim of what we're trying to do here.

Whether we can pull that off, that will take some doing, but that will be wonderful to see. So hopefully we can do that. Guys. So thank you very much for the support and everything along the way, guys. The YouTube channel is stronger than ever. And at the podcast is, hopefully growing a bigger and wider audience. If you want your, if you know people who would be interested in what we're talking about here, please share it with people.

Or please like the or please rate the podcast, I've never mentioned that before and I'm I've never checked the ratings on the podcast. I have no idea how well it's doing on all the various platforms. I get these strange emails from people wanting to promote my or you know they're asking for a fee for them to send me data and that kind of thing I'm not interested just just share the podcast around. Share with people, you know, who would really enjoy this kind of content.

Talkin about all these old games and and that goes for the YouTube channel too because that's sort of growing as well, and that's really great to see. And I hope to bring better and more polished content in the future to a few shoutouts, for our people in the community. And I really want to keep this going and make that more of a regular thing. Every time we have a podcast. If I see somebody new and we've got the, let me just have a quick look here.

I scroll down through here. I don't want to get this ink. I don't want to make a mistake here. So I've got the original old Hammer artwork Channel that's on YouTube. They've got some fascinating well, obviously artwork from. He's got original artwork from the artists from Games. Workshop from back in the 90s mostly, it's based must actually most of its based in the 80s. I think Like really old, pull butter artwork, and that kind of

stuff really amazing stuff. John Blanche is work as well. So a bit of a shout out to hand, go and check out his channel, go and give him a like And subscribe. And they're, they're doing some really awesome stuff there in showcasing a lot of the old artwork that we loved back in the day and still love. And he's got some, he's got some interviews from the 80s as well which is really fascinating to watch as well. So go and check those out.

Who else have I spotted? What we've got Tom over at middle Hammer TV. He's uploaded a video. Now again as one, I can't believe he's got such a small amount of subscribers already but you're going to should go there and check it out and that's Middle have a little Hammer TV and I'm sure Tom is working on other games systems. I know he's doing the 40K challenge to the Cowabunga group of guys there, so I'm sure 40K is going to be on his, his wish

list of games. He wants to Showcase with maybe his son or friend. Friends later in the future. But yeah, the quality of his videos are very high and they're very enjoyable to watch. So if you like to see Tom face, his son, Joshua, in games of Epic Space Marine, please go and check him out to. That's middle hand, the TV, please go and give him a like give him a share, subscribe and help him and support his channel.

They're the main to and of course the other one is the Warhammer as the war games Orchard and Nathan and the crew. They're they're doing some solo kind of videos talking about various different races and units in the in the old world will bit of disappeared over time. They've been really cool too. So give them a like, and a subscribe and share their content around as well. So that's probably the main news. The other one that I want to talk about is my life streaming up. What's up?

Come back to live streaming, maybe it's terrible to watch, I don't know. The feedback is generally fairly positive. And some people really enjoy this format. So, we're sort of building up, a little community of people there that come along every Sunday, every Saturday and Sunday. So tomorrow because I'm recording this now on Friday. So tomorrow that's Saturday the will be for me the 21st 22nd and that's generally around about 11

p.m. I go live on Saturday and again on Sunday. And we just sit there for about an hour and a half or whatever and we just talk and chat about. Obviously it's just me talking but I'm reading comments on the feed and we just talked about painting. If people want to ask me questions or whatever and your hobby kind of related, questions I want to ask me or the people in the chat, you know, there's a lot of really inform people

there. A lot of people with a lot of experience and they can help people, so that's really good to see. So if that's your kind of thing, Come Along on a Saturday and Sunday, you'll probably see an announcement soon up on my channel to see, you know, I'm going to go live on such and such a Time on such a day for some kind of paint. I think I might call it the booze and paint fumes weekends because I think the colonel on of one of my guys on the on the channel.

We he said he quoted that one as one of his comments. I like that so much. I really want to see that on a t-shirt or on a mug or something like that or we get to doing some kind of merchandise for the crown of command. But yeah I think the booze and paint fumes sessions are quite cool so because I'm always drinking. Or something like that as I'm painting. And so I think that sort of came about nothing's quite a cool, quite a cool little title for something.

So yeah, come and join us for the booze and paint fumes or coffee and paint fumes or whatever, whatever it might be. They're quite fun until then guys, take care of yourselves out there please and and keep painting and doing your hobby and yeah, hope to see you in The next one. Okay, take care. Bye bye. The next one. Okay, take care. Bye bye.