But, but Jerry, thanks again. Maybe Kevin, on the crowded command I should introduce you currently. How rude of me not to so, but I'm sure people have recognized
your voice from on tabletop. Now on tabletop, it used to be the beasts of war and that's sort of, you know, you got that very fond logo, really awesome looking logo and I think the guys behind base of War, very tech minded, I think would be the right way of putting it. They're really into their computers and graphics and stuff like that.
So when Warren and his brother started that Channel, and I'm thinking, wow, that's like 15 years ago or something, I saw Warren doing these really short, you know, news in the hobby, kind of reels he did on YouTube way, way, way back and all this awesome. It was so good and it was really energetic. It was a lot slimmer back then too, I might say. Well, I think we all were, me
too included. But yeah, they're really entertaining and they just gave this really nice sort of punchy, very visually vibrant, kind of, you know, they just knew their graphics, they just knew how to, how to, you know, run the system, how to, how to, how to get, how to get most people viewing this stuff. And I think they've had a collaboration with Waylon Games back then I think as well. So yeah, that's going way back when that started.
But then of course they changed the the name of the channel because of the algorithm or whatever. The sensitive Yeah, you YouTube's YouTube's shadow ban on anybody with war in the title. Even people who were subscribed weren't getting notifications of videos called guys. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah, wow. OK. Oh, God bless YouTube. To do nothing but good things. Yeah, yeah. I won't say one bad thing about them. I'll have to take all the war out of Warhammer.
What do I call it now? Sponge hammer or something? I don't know. Well that's probably a good way to go. Who knows? It's it's a it's a crazy world out there mate. So I've I've given up on trying to this war on algorithms. I've just given up on it because there's there's no way of getting around it. There's there's no point.
I find there are two people in the world, people who desperately, desperately want to hit as many as they can, and they'll constantly jump between projects and setups, trying to always stay on the Crest of that wave, which is a full time job in itself. And then there are the people who go, You know what? I'm just going to do the stuff that I want to do. And algorithm be damned. And it'll go where it goes, yeah. And I think those are happier people.
Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. You just got to do it for if you really love and you're really passionate about what you're doing and you're distant. Yeah, it's like part of your hobby. You know, You do it because other people maybe enjoy it. And that you get to correspond people online about the stuff that you're passionate about, which is really cool. But I think that that. I'm sorry because I'm just constantly breaking up your
introduction. The thing about that is when you're passionate about something and you're engaging with the people who are watching your stuff. That comes across when when you're chasing, chasing numbers and then you end up either treading on people's toes or not, not coming at things from the direction people expect you to, then they just end up. Insulting Internet arguments like like poor Gary yesterday I've been advised that on on the artist formerly known as Twitter, Gary Chalk said
something to the effect of war. Games Workshop don't care about their Lord, it's just copy to sell miniatures which sent the the GW fanboys into connections. On the Internet, so I'm assuming his inbox is blown up from all accounts. Love you, Gary, I'll tell. You Gary talks about Legend if anybody knows if anybody's old enough, or to remember Talisman second edition or Talisman first edition. I think he did the cover for that as well. He's an amazing artist, game designer.
He was there right from the beginning from Warhammer version one with Rick Priestly play testing. You know, game developing, you know, So yeah, yeah, absolute legend. So yeah, but yeah, mate, it's it's interesting how that's all built. But you know, like I follow the guys on YouTube that I really like and I I feel like a real genuine kind of guys, you know what I mean? Who just do it because they just got like a little camera and they just film stuff they're
doing on their workbench. I mean, you know, I don't need the flashy graphics. I don't need all the, you know, it's kind of finger pointing, the sort of trigger, kind of headlines on the. Crack cheesy click bit headlines and thumbnails stuff. No. I can do that, then no. I just want real, genuine people talking about their hobby and stuff and it's just nice to listen to. No, 100%, yeah, but now you had it, you had your own channel too.
And I actually found your channel, but then you delete it. Yeah, and that's the second channel I've deleted. I had a way, way, way, way back in the day. I had one and and it was more or less what you've seen on on that Channel before. It got naked, except more of it. So it was whatever I happened to be working on any given time and I just got. Fed up with it so it went away. The Doo Doo the other one. I only put videos on it so I could upload them into the project system.
And then last week YouTube went, oh, you can't run this without an ad blocker. Can I know YouTube? All right then. So I deleted the channel and then went and subscribed to Spotify because I don't like being told what to do by YouTube. I am glad I'm not better of a man. Yes, but there wasn't much on that. It was just a couple of videos. So you can actually upload videos to Spotify. You can upload videos. No, no, no, I can't. No. But I'll just go and listen to music on Spotify.
Good. OK. Yeah. Well that's that's a good idea. I I I use Spotify all the time. I think it's a great little thing. Yeah it's great. So even got bull thrower on there. Bull thrower. Bull thrower which is I have AI had a bull thrower album. I think my brother stole that and and ran off with it whenever he went to uni. Well, it's a worthy prize to steal, I guess it's something you know, and those were noteworthy, I suppose.
But yeah, but of course you're not just a YouTube, you're a presenter of on Tabletop. But we'll get to that later. But how did your how did your hobby origin start? Like what sort of triggered you into the Games Workshop Hobby, or just hobby in general? Well, we have to go hobby in general before we get in the Games Workshop, so whenever I
was a kid. I was down visiting family in Dundalk in the South of Ireland, excuse me, and I had a cousin who was probably about, oh Jesus, Gary would have been 15 years older, so I was very little, sort of seven or eight. And he was off at university in Dublin. And I was allowed when visiting his house to go and nosy around his room just to keep me out from under the adult's feet.
And he had a shelf with miniatures on him and they always fascinated me. And one summer he was actually home at the same time we were there. So I got a chance to ask him about it and they were for D&D. And then he explained what role-playing was and so that really intrigued me and. And he ended up giving me a stack of old some old dragon and some old white dwarves, going back to the very early issues of White Dwarf when they still had
a lot of RPG coverage. So we get in these scenarios, traveller and all sorts of things in it. So I I went to. Dungeons and Dragons very briefly via the medium of of that magazine. I never really got the the whole miniatures for role-playing. I never, I never went that way. But when we got back up home at one point I managed to get my my parents to buy me Tunnels and Trolls. Kenson, Andreas. Fantasy RPG and it was a tiny little yellow covered book.
It's all panic drawings and it was like A5 steepled together, just a little flimsy thing. So I had the the rule book which cost all of the money which meant I wasn't getting any miniatures. So we we just played RPGs without and there was nothing really in it about using miniatures and the same way where D&D sort of aimed at that way. So I started playing Thomas and Trolls and then. Some of the other bits and pieces in the old white towards who sent me off in different
directions. So it's like, oh this looks interesting. And then with the launch of Warframe was about the same time I started getting into RPGs and there was really only one, one shop in all of Northern Ireland that sold anything. So every time we went to Belfast, up to the big city, I would beg to be left there. And I'm sure the owner, Joe, was really, really happy to see children being dropped off like a crash. It wasn't quite as bad as as GW because very few people knew it.
It wasn't shiny. The model, the mother's Nick, it's called in Belfast and it didn't really have the footfall and the wee backstreet that that came to workshop CM4. So. So it wasn't just kids thrown in there because there was literally nothing to do. It was just a shop. He would wander around. He would browse. But every time I went up I'd be very keen to see what new role-playing games he'd got.
And I got got myself a copy of whatever fantasy role play and by that time I started looking at the miniature side, but that was for specifically for gaming. So I got the Warhammer via the role-playing and then into Fantasy and then I picked up in 87 I got Rogue Trader which is. Still sitting on my shelf and falling apart. So so yeah I came in by the back door. Not a usual sort of. I found Hero Quest in a in a shop and and went that way.
I I snuck in by the medium of older older cousin and then and that was that was the beginning of the end. I said goodbye to all my money. That's it, yeah. And free time, did you did you experience a lot of Warhammer Fantasy role play? Did you actually have like sessions with large groups of people playing it, or how extensive was that? Yeah, yeah. Good. Well, when I was younger it was my brother who was younger than me and therefore always available to be used as a player.
And then some tried to recruit the, you know, friends that I played with locally. So the people I play football with and that sort of thing tried to get them involved to greater or lesser extent. You know, some of them would give it a go for a session or two or a couple of couple of months, then give it up as a bad job. But then whenever I went to secondary school, so age of 11.
I got a wider couple of people to draw and they had ARB club at the at the school there allowed me to really get into that and it was it was all ages you'd walk in there and there were sixth formers about to leave the the school we're playing alongside first years like myself and sort of everywhere in between. So we would we would have a access to. Oh, the Irish teacher.
Was his name Mr. Martin? You know, access to Mr. Martin's room after school finished every Tuesday until such time as we left or got thrown out by the caretaker. And that's when I really got into role-playing in a big way, because you could always play games with my brother. I can always play a, you know, a small game of Warhammer or 40K or Blubble. Whatever happened to be he was always available under uniquely 1 opponent.
For a war game. So in some respects it was easier for me to get a a game of of miniatures in rather than an actual RPG session. Managed to tandem the two quite well when I was younger. What what's your preferred sort of setting? Is it more, you know, D&D dragon Lance or more Warhammer? Sort of a grim dark. Oh no. Warhammer. Warhammer OK. Warhammer. By far and away my favorite, well, my favorite setting of all time is Call of Cathulu. Absolutely love COC, Love the
cock. Can't get enough of it. Call of Cathulu is it's amazing. And again it was it was something Games Workshop sold in the UK and that's how I found it through White Dwarf. And the work has a lot of similarities to Cathulu. It has insanity.
There's those psychological things that will screw your character over, and that was far more interesting and still is far more interesting to me than somebody who walks in like the barbarian brothers and just, you know, punches God in the face and takes the loot and you go, well, that's that's interesting. But really, if you walked into a room and there was a God there, would you not just actually just have a complete collapse?
And that that's why I really, I really like the the psychology side of of RPGs and trying to interact with that because it's it's just far more interesting. And then every now and again somebody will license out some form of Kathiri product to be made using D&D or 5th edition or whatever the fuck it's called these days. Pardon me first one and and it's all. And it's all how quickly can you get to Max level And then people are starting up. You know, I can, I can do this. I can do that.
And at no point should anybody in a Cthulhu game or as far as I'm concerned, any RPG really. At no point should you be looking at a monster and thinking I can have that really easily because then that kind of takes anything of interest away. If you're not actually playing a character that can be hurt. It's like John Wick four. I watched John Wick 4 recently and. For the last 90 minutes he's just being shot and thrown out of windows and stabbed and beaten up and nothing can stop him.
He becomes God like. And at that point I got really bored with that film, which is a shame because I really like Joe Beck. Likewise if if you look at a monster and think well it's only XD something start. I can have up to YD something starts monsters without a problem, then you know nobody should be starting up a shotgun against a Migo. Go mad and die.
That's the best way, yes. I I listened to your review of John Wick Four and I haven't even gotten past John Wick 2 yet because I think two was a bit of a, you know, it sort of dragged that out a lot as well too. I thought number one was fantastic and I I think it's going to be really hard for them to live up to #1. Number one was number one was tight. Number one was interesting by the time we've had four. And I think I said this on the the the unofficial hobby hangout with Tim.
I was. I was skipping action to get to bits where people were talking because the lore and the mistakes that they've built up around their world, which clearly isn't our world. That's something very different. That's far more interesting than Carrie Reeves repeatedly punching things in the face or flipping them over. Actually working out how their society works and how all the various clans and families interact, that's really interesting to me. I've got more of that please.
And yeah, as as episodes or chapters of that have gone on, there's been less of the talking, more of the punching. I think I said John Wick one is is just about the same length as the second-half fight scene. Jump for it's. They're literally about 90 minutes long each. It's just go that's that's that's one hell of an extended fight scene and I really don't care anymore for die hard action lovers by the sound of things. Yeah but maybe John Wick RPG should be in the in the works. It's.
Not be on the road I have. I have some friends who wrote some RPGs years ago when they were. University, you know, small pub. There was a weird point in the early 90s where everybody was producing like in the RPGs, and they've got one based on a system they came up with called stocks. So they had stocks and then stocks light, which cut it right back to the bone. And then they did these little supplements and there's one called Point Blank Redemption Through Violence, and it's based
on the Hong Kong action. The the John Woo movies, your God of gamblers and saviours, All and better Tomorrow and the things that sort of inspired both John Wick and Quentin Tarantino to a certain extent and that. So I mean that's one of the reasons I want them. Just to talk more about the back story, tell tell me more about how this gold coin system works. So I can just go and run John Wick using Point Blank. Thanks. Thanks very much. I'll be happy.
No, you're right. I think the Warhammer role-playing system had an enormous, rich sort of background law. The supplements that came out for the Martin McKenna drawings, the illustrations he did for a lot of the portraits and stuff like that were just incredible. I just love looking through the books.
I wasn't much of A role player, but I did enjoy the Warhammer first edition role play because you had all these lists of careers and you know you have to roll to see what career you had depending on what race you were and that kind of thing. Of course, being the dwarf, I'd always want to roll up the Troll Slayer because he's the coolest of all. I didn't want to be like a, you know, a rat catcher or a shoe polisher or something like that, or a tailor or whatever.
But then, you know, I mean, you could. Wagon drivers weren't bad. Yeah, but you had all these wonderful. Yeah, sort of. You know that that I think that was just a massive departure from the the D&D experience where you were already like this established warrior or class or whatever. You were just like just an ordinary you know Joe Blow type bloke or woman. And he was he was sort of thrust into this quest by the GM and and on your way you went.
So yeah, it's it's really nice to actually form your own character, I guess. Maybe. It's it's one of the really nice things, not about, just about the system. What about their their take on it? The fact that there was a path progression like you would have in D&D where you were attempting to go up in the world, but you weren't just going, I will forever be a barbarian, and how many stats and feats can I
unlock? But you were you were progressing your story, so you would start off as the lowest rung who'd throw in their toys out of the pram. And when I don't want to, you know. I don't want to collect dung at night anymore. This is a terrible job. I want to go off and be an adventurer. And went off to become an adventurer and then discovered it was a terrible thing and your career would just change over time. You go right. Well, I'm no longer a dung collector. Now I'm a wagon driver.
And then from a wagon driver, you might upgrade your life to be a carriage driver. And then you think, you know what? A highway man's life's for me. And it was just these little. It was a more interesting way of doing this, and because of that we have a glut of books between sort of warmer fantasy role play and 3rd edition fantasy battles
that were cross compatible. And they had a lot more interesting things in them than we see in more modern GW books because they weren't just catering to Space Marine chapter. Use your space print codecs you got, you know I want to the Chaos Gods. I need Lost in the Damned and Grounds or Slaves to Darkness. And they had it's for fantasy, it's for 40K, it's for the RPG.
And the books were just stuffed, filled with so much, which one of the reasons I'm actually glad that they've started reprinting some of the stuff. Obviously the prices, you know, probably over the top, but there's a whole generation of people who have never seen these books but have only ever heard of them and heard of old crusty bastards like myself wettering on about how great they were in the old days.
And there's an often you get a rose tinted view of things and then people finally watch the movie. You've been telling them for years that they should watch or read the book and then they go it's not actually that great and you go back, you know, No, it's amazing, you're wrong. And I hope that people get to experience things like Group Trader I think is getting a reprint finally.
And there's so much in those books to explore and so many little Nuggets that are just gone from games, workshops, back story and lore altogether. They've excised things over time as they've become less role play based and more miniature side.
So even people like C7 Cubicle 7, reprinting the old warfare books, so being able to get the the horned grass or the the empire books, you two can live out your life in a terrible, terrible place and hope that you do well before you die or get eaten by something and never attend any any parties at court because they're always filled with chaos called lists. Yeah, well, the thing I love about the.
Especially the novels and I suppose the role-playing game like especially a third edition, maybe the 3rd edition role-playing game like Cows was never seen. It was just like, you know, maybe like talked about. In places or you had this sort of insidious sort of idea of what this could be like, but you've never seen anything about it. And then sort of you sort of stumble across some cultists who are praying or preaching in some part of the old world. And and I love all that kind of
thing. It wasn't just sort of thrust in your face. It was kind of like very much, very much this, this thing that was sort of like a, you know, a very hidden part of the empires, you know, that sort of seeped into the empire and corrupted. Corrupted parts of the maybe the astocracy or whatever. And it always had these wonderful twists and turns to the stories and that kind of thing and the books and and the law and that kind of stuff, which which should have changed later on.
Yeah, it was one 100% you you had that. I mean they would always add something in and you weren't entirely sure where it was going to go and maybe it may be as on face value, as decadent as they seem or maybe they were some sort of weird slanish he called to be really know until books down the line. Or maybe never. They'd never that they got to the GM and his group as to how
they explored those things. I always remember the the cult of the four armed emperor that they introduced with I think the Dark Angel storyline for the what's the Terminator company called Death Company? Death Wing. The death wing story where they had the the cult of the and the idea that that cult had arisen had grown up over time. It was just a new way of worshipping the emperor.
But the Insidious Underbelly was actually a Jade's theater cult had grown up and it subsumed the the the Empire on that or the Imperium on that world. And it was the same sort of thing in fantasy, where you had, you know, you would see symbols sometimes or there's a couple of crossed arrows broken off and you're going, well, that's just a couple of crossed arrows. Then you go, or maybe it's some sort of chaos symbol. Should I burn this place to the ground and kill everybody
inside? Probably. Well, I get well. I get in trouble if I do it. That's borderline. I could go either way just before the Emperor. Very much, yeah. Get you out of jail. But yeah, no, I really love the old. Especially the road trader. Yeah, that. That dark Angel. That side of Dark Angel. The Space Hulk, Death Wing, The Apache Indian style to the names and Weasel fierce. I will never forget weasel fierce as being one of the names
of the guys. They all go back home after 100 of years, discover everything's gone wrong and and that seems to be are being lost. With every iteration the the more interesting parts of stories are being sort of pulled away to make it more generic or accessible to more people. So they just sort of tease out those things. Death Wing or still painted boom colour, but all of the the tribal symbols that painted on their armour are gone. And now most people don't even go.
They used to have black armor. How come they're white now? Well reasons. All right, OK. I don't think the don't think the modern Death wing, the last time I seen them had any of the feathers or iconography on the models. I think they just went for the bone armor, which is very dumb. Everything's becoming sanitized. Yes, I know it's tragic. Yeah, I know. I actually modelled those onto. Some you know the plastic
terminators. I talked about this with Marcel and Snake works studio last and the last episode. But yeah, I see I actually modelled all those onto with green stuff onto my entry for Golden Demon many many years ago in Australia and it sort of just got very much to sort of poo poo because it's not it's not fitting the. You know the aesthetical Canon now or Dark Angels and Death Wing it. This is, you know, this is old sort of styles. It's not how we do it now kind
of thing. So it's a shame because I love all that kind of thing. You know it is it's a tragedy it it sets it sets the world's apart the the back stories that they have and and the like we're saying earlier the and the fact that they keep changing things that the lore isn't maintained in a particular way because they need to be able to pivot if they want to change something to sell something. So if it's not if it's not nailed down it can be easily
adjusted with every adjustment. You know you know something people don't think I mean marines used to be you got if you've seen 5 on a on a planet. That was amazing. And now it's everybody in their dog has them Death, Deathly, Legend of the damned. I still have my centurion. In fact I've got two centurious figures from from I think they called it Giant Day when they opened fifty stores. Yeah. So when they had fifty stores, they released the Legion of the Damned.
Sergeant called centurious, and they released special rules for him, and they explained how the Legion of the Damned appeared and then disappeared. Sometimes when people of the Imperium were sort of their their most, the most peril, they this wreathed, Bony, fiery Marine squad would appear, rip everything apart, and then disappear. And and only one figure had been seen more than once. A veteran Sergeant and centurious. And then he made a model for him and then skipped forward 15
years and then they went. Here's rules for running fully to the damned armies, including Dreadnoughts. No, it's it's like the mentor legion.
One of my first white dwarves that I bought myself would have been I think in 88 had the Ultramarines on the front cover and there was a bit about the mentor Legion inside it and it was just like a two page spread a picture of a the the chapter Commander having his armor put on and explained that this marine chapter was very specifically put together to test new arms and armament. They would go off to a planet somewhere. They would find an STC.
They would come back and go what's this do And then hand over to the mentor legion and go you can test this. I was like the commander. His name was something like Thrall. He apparently had a veto where if he looked at something, well I think that's going to explode in our faces. We're not doing that but he never exercised his veto ever. He always did something and they had this rules for a five man mentor legion squad and a special bolter set up called a targeting web.
I think it was where you could shoot individually or everybody could shoot at one very pinpoint accurate spot because the targeting web would just pull all the their focus on the one spot and it would give you massive like armour piercing bones and strength bonus. And it was just a neat way of fielding a weird little five man squad and again mentor legion.
Well here you go we've we've got rid of the weird owl which I really liked giving it just like a Raptor head and it's just a green and white armour and otherwise they're just a regular spaceman chapter that's no fun. They want a regular spaceman
chapter. I want weird mentor Allegiance Squad attached to some Buddy Joe army on a planet fighting because they want to test out some sort of strange weapon that they've they found in a back cupboard of a stone castle on a world that's been cut off for 400 years and they have no idea what it's going to do. So these five guys are going to
go over there. One guy's going to stand on a hill with a pair of binoculars and watch and make notes in case it does go badly wrong and oh, it's gone critical, the Sky's on fire. Time to lead this planet, you know, that's. Maybe that's just me.
Yeah, it's funny. We we had a Warhammer tournament here in Japan. On the weekend on Sunday after we had a few beers down to the pub kind of thing and one of the younger guys, he's talking about 10th edition 40K and he and I think he and a friend are playing it and he mentioned that there are now 26 factions like as in codexes or something like that. And it's like really? I said, yeah, I said as and one of the guys suggested, OK well let's have a bit of a drinking game.
Let's let's, let's, let's call that all the names of all the different codexes, all the different factions and if you, if you can't say the faction, you've got to take a big swiggy beer kind of thing. I think we got, I think we did get to that. I think we've got more than 26. I think we went from Rd. Trade all the way up to the current edition now, and it looks like they're just sort of segmented all the different marine chapters into Rome's
codex and all the chaos. Different God legions get their own codecs and you know, so on and so forth. So sort of they've really fractured everything and splintered it off into their own sort of separate things I suppose a craft world for elder get their own ones as well and all that. But it's a good way of making money I guess. You know, you can sell lots of books and miniatures that way, So, Well, that's true.
And there's a it's only a matter of time before the the codexes get split into more but different codexes. And they get replaced with new codexes. It's the circle of life. That's it. That's what they tell me. So when when you played Rogue Trader, what was your preferred fashion? What? What army did you start off with? I started with the Imperial Army. Wasn't the Imperial Guard in those days? It was the Imperial Army, right? Because sending, I was going to say dozens, but it wasn't
dozens. Sending dozens of men towards their death, backed up with basement. Because, you know, basement were always good. The Imperial Army was just so much fun because it just had bits of everything you want to know. Grim. Sure you want some squats? Go right ahead. You want to throw some basement in in into a sci-fi game with nothing but swords? Well I'll tell you what the Sergeant he can have a breastplate and a chain sword. Great, fantastic.
I'll do all of that And and then my brother would sit with the there was like a not a demonic entity space entity generating page and even come up with weird weird monsters that were just you know just put one thing on the table and just crawl around the place or float sometimes skinning men as they went. Because it's just it's like, how could we fight off this unusual, encroaching terror? Brilliant. OK, off, off, off. We didn't. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's great.
OK. Yeah. I remember the Beastman being part of the Imperial War. Imperial forces appeal guard back in those days and it's really cool to see. I'm. I suppose they got they eradicated that later on and they just put them into chaos, but. Yeah, you had a much more, very much more entertaining kind of list building experience. Maybe back in the old days, where it's kind of just like the Wild West, you could just put anything in there that you liked.
Yeah, help humans were best, because if they died, real humans didn't die. So and that was the Imperial way people forget 40K was very much a fascist satire, that the Imperium was the worst evil in that universe and ultimately still is the worst evil. It's that universe. People go, oh, space brains, push the boys to the Imperium. There's the good guys. Oh no. Oh my sweet summer child. There was there was oh. There were two supplements for Rd.
Trader the that came out at similar time, the Companion, Pendium and Companion. I can't remember which one had the green lights in it, but there was a great story about and Imperial planets. The final setting was under siege from Chaos and the the space boards have been cut off and they've got all the way up to the sort of the last bastion of the Planetary Defence Force, the Defenders.
The planetary governor was there with his assistant and it's mostly told through his assistant's point of view and and they've brought they've asked the chaos cultist leader to come in to negotiate terms and he's saying no, all all they've managed to get reinforcement wise.
It's like 5 space marines managed to get in earlier on today and we haven't seen them since and they finally arrived and they're negotiating surrender and the governor's going, oh, I'm sorry, no, not our surrender, your surrender. And the cults going what? And then they summon A Bloodthirster into the the middle of the palace for a better word. And then the governor just looks up and goes, oh Bloodthirster, oh, we are privileged, this is
great. And then the five marines are Grey Knights and they teleport in a full armor and just butcher everybody. It's like, well, we needed in a confined space, we needed the leaders here who could do it and we needed to pull out the demon who was controlling everything. And then the the governor turns around, his assistant goes, but unfortunately she don't write highly enough to know that they even exist and just puts a bolt through the back of his head.
And that's how the story ended. The Grey Knights. What a missus. Because the Imperium just the worst, that's the absolute so. Imperial Ages. It's the system, eh? Very nice. OK. Yeah, well, it's the way to do it. Yeah. Wow. OK, that's cool. I like that story. I like that kind of thing. Oh, it's it's yeah, it was just so much fun. They I think they had an awful lot of fun writing. I think so too. Something they had a few more interesting things. Yeah, a lot of freedom, I think
back in those days. I was listening to Rick Priestly talk about it today, actually. In in in in in an interview on YouTube somewhere. Interviewing. Seen that interview go up, but I haven't had a chance to watch it yet. Yeah, have a have a look at it. It's really interesting. I've always liked talking to Rick and I know a lot of that stuff. He's he's talked about this many Times Now recently. But you know, he's talking about the development of Rd.
Trader and one of Fantasy 3rd edition and all that kind of thing and financial was still part of the company. And I think he was, they were given a lot more leeway in what they could do and they were sort of just left to their own devices as to what, you know, what happened, what they put in there, who was assigned to what and who. And they basically, he said in his own words, we're more like writers more than game developers.
We just wrote a lot and they developed, you know, a lot of the law and stories and what have you. And it wasn't until recently that I realized that Rick Priestly actually penned in a few stories into. Was it was it one of the was it Whammer Siege? Yeah, he he wrote some short stories, and I think a lot of the guys did to fill up. Maybe pages to fill up page count, yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I know.
I mean something that may have been just an interesting story or a throwaway line 40 years ago is now something that the entire world or universe is sort of hung off. You know, that full on modern players and fans go, we know that's so integral to the the Lord that you can't change that part or that that has to. That's that's the main crux of it. You go and you have it as somebody put it in because he thought it was funny. Like one of my favorite forces is the Dogs of War, I think bar
none. It's probably both aesthetically and and how they set that army out for fantasy, right? Right at the top for me. And you go through that and every if there's not a funny story, it's a funny name like a Sarno. The Eldon Lord on dragon is first of all his name's just Arsenal. The the, the football team from London for people abroad.
His colours were the Arsenal colours for the away strip and his battle cry was one nil and and at that stage George Graham was the manager of Arsenal and they used to get called Boring Arsenal and Arsenal fans would just chant one nil, one nil to the Arsenal because they would they would score a goal and then nobody would be able to get past their defence and that was it. They would, once they'd scored they'd just sit back for the rest of the game and just soak up all the pressure.
So I think Jervis Johnson might be an Arsenal fan and so somebody put that in just to taunt him. So it was one nil to the Arsenal. I mean that was part and parcel was absolutely hilarious. That's. I love that little nugget of I'm. I'm sure there are more that I haven't found. I'll find them someday, mind you. Yeah, I know you.
I know you're into your football because I know you mentioned it on the the the dude on YouTube. You talk a lot about football and probably watch football as you're. Talking annoys them very much when there's a match on at the same time. So Tim and the rest of them have to suffer me going. And this project's really interesting because I really like what they've done with this scratch build. Oh my gosh, did you best start? Sorry, Yes. Yeah. Much like Warhammer. Much like Warhammer.
I. Was going to say what? Much like Warhammer, I think football was much more entertaining back in the 90s than it is now in a lot of ways. Oh, very much. Well, certainly in the past few years we won't get into football because I'm sure that will be the absolute yes out of everyone. But yeah, the past four years or so since they introduced BAR where every every 5 minutes you have to stop for 10 minutes to have a video replay at length about something and then start
the game up again. It's just it sucked all the life out of it. Let's still watch it, mind you. Me too. Me too. Fish. Fish fight hoops. Can't leave it. So let's let's go on to Warhammer then. So you you I I take it you you discovered Warhammer Fantasy Battle, or what particular edition did you pick that up at? I I was eventually gifted first edition, but I picked up my own copy at second all.
Right. I have a sneaking suspicion I picked up my own copy at second because it was reduced and I think it was just because third was just about to hit. But I didn't know that at the time and it was a little while before I caught up on the curve. But after that I went pretty much unbroken from 2nd through the 8th and so pretty much unbroken it was unbroken. I have every rule set and pretty much most of the army books from second all the way through till
they exploited my world. Any particular addition that you favour the most? Probably 5th, although I swing between 5th and 3rd partly because third has. Obviously you can still play around with the the Realms books when you're playing third, but also like well I think post 5th or even 5th is sort of borderline for some army books.
You start to hit hero hammer in a big way after that, so 5th, 6th, 7th and then by by God by the time that you hit 8th it's just hydroblades everywhere and and ridiculous heroes. While I don't mind having heroes fighting, it's always been the spectacle of big, big units slamming into each other and fighting was far more interesting to me. So like the Delta War I mentioned earlier, I have unusually sized units. So I've got 2 units of 60 Pike.
I have, you know, 2 units of cavalry that are both, well, one's 15 strong, one's 20 strong. And these are not unit sizes that you would ordinarily see in most games, because they're too big and unwieldy. But I absolutely adore. It's probably why I slipped off and stopped doing a bit more historical stuff after that. But just if you could do something due to excess. I once ran a, you know, 78 goals and I didn't think it was too
many in my undead army. It's just I did some filthy stuff when I was a kid and now actually as well, they still do filthy stuff. There's a lot to be said about having a battle. It's I'm very much the Ronnie Renton school of thought when it comes to putting miniatures on
the table. If you're playing a grand mast battle of rank and file infantry, having little units of five men or 10 men peddling around at the edges, and you're going, well, that's it's a bit dull maneuvering, but at the same time, I know a fan of Death Star units, you know, here's a 2000 point list and then here is my thousand point units where the front rank is all heroes. Actually the front rank, but one is all heroes, so you can take out some daggers as casualties.
I'd much rather have solid blocks, well formed army, and just a lot of them know you well. There's 25 points for a magic item or 50 points for magic item. When you go, that's four more men. That's that's a rank. Give me a rank and we'll do the same amount of damage in the long run. Yeah. OK, mate, that's a that's a well, you have you have got a you've got a dog to war army that's in excess of, I don't know how many hundreds of models you've got in there.
Oh Christ, that's your retirement. Plan, mate. That's it. You got your retirement sorted out. They're worth. An absolute bloody fortune. As you probably know. Every now and again I do I Google the eBay prices, Bing them Bing the eBay prices and it just brings a wry smile to my face when they're going £12 per cursed company model. Anyway, I've got you know, 16 Victor Krueger and the cursed company. Sixty of those and and someday I'll base them.
They're all painted. I've just never I I I fell out of playing Warhammer with the group that was playing with and we moved on to doing sort of historic stuff for a long time. And I got part way through putting together units and just went, oh, I've I've painted and depth all those undead. All the skeletons are dead now I just need to mat them and base them based on them and then they never got out-of-the-box again. So that's that's something I have to get back to.
If I didn't sell them from a retirement, I can just retire and paint them. Exactly. That's that's a much better idea, I think. And you have so many, basically. And you know, they're not recast either. They're pure originals, man. Oh, God, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Because I'm still still in GW when dogs were released because I remember having to paint them for GW Belfast for the cabinet. So to staff discount, God bless you, Staff discount £20.00 for kilogram of lead.
You say Amazing. And then they went up to £25. Keep going. Well this is still reasonable. And then they changed from lead to white metal and it all became lighter. Oh, and stuff. Just kind of how how much I miss you. Yeah mate. So you you mentioned that you you worked for Games Workshop for a period of time in Belfast and you were there during the time of 5th edition when 5th edition was out. Is that right? Was it a bit later the the mess of time I was there in 9097.
I'm trying to remember was that was so possibly post 5th. I think maybe 6th, right. OK, everything, everything everything blurs after a while certainly doesn't I drink this much but but yeah I was in there because I was certainly there when second edition 40K went to 3rd. That was one of the major releases. So I can't actually remember what edition of Warhammer it was. They just they're lurking over
my shoulder. So it was there for started as a I was a key timer when I went to uni, which is how a lot of people get in, and then decided the university career I'd picked myself wasn't going to work out. So I took a year out and any day now I plan on going back and sorting that. But I will say applied Biochemical Sciences. Not as easy as it sounds. If you're going to pick that for university people, make sure you really want to.
So I ended up bouncing through the ranks in GW, up to his manager and they had multiple stores in Ireland at that stage. They peaked and then they proceeded like the Crest of a wave because we went from Belfast, Dublin and then they opened Blanchard's Town in Lisburn and then Blanchard's Town in Lisburn. It was closed subsequently. So I think Lisburn was only open for three or four years. It was a very short space of time.
That was a big mistake on on head offices part of that point, but yeah, that was that was a fun peek behind the curtains. Yeah, OK. So yeah, you you joined at a pretty exciting time, leaving it all the way to The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, Not The Hobbit. Sorry. The Lord of the Rings. It's Lord of the Rings, yeah, The Middle Middle Earth strategy battle game. That's. The one, Yeah, never played it myself.
But yeah, I know, I know. It's pretty big for the Games Workshop. Weirdly, I have I have the GW Belfast store copy on my shelf because they sent it and I started painting the stuff and then I never returned the book before so that that is the copy that's on my shelf, which was both a pre release and and an original. It's it's not a bad game actually, although I'm not a huge it's weird, I'm a huge fantasy fan.
I'm not a massive Lord of the Rings fan and it's probably because I read Lord of the Rings and when story's good, his writing's not great is right. It gets very wordy. It's like he's trying to rewrite Shakespeare or the Bible and places. So I very, very quickly fell over. Films are good but I never got into the game. But the game itself is solid.
And I know this because while I haven't played a huge amount of Lord of the Rings, they span off Warhammer historical Wild West game from it. So Legends of the Old West is is based on the Middle Earth battle game that they they produced for the film. OK that's interesting. That's a cracker, especially if you're in Dear Wild West. Warhammer historical was a really, I mean I feel it was a a SOP to the to the rules writers at GW.
It was like we want to do these and then workshop went, well, we don't do historics well, but we wrote the rules and technically they're ours and can't we? And they kind of just went, you know what, you can go and do Warhammer Historical. That could be your little thing. It's over there. We will never talk about it or promote it. Just get out of your system. And it was people like Jervis Johnson and John Stellar and the Perry's and people like that who
just went. I really like Napoleonics or Ancients or whatever, and so the people have never seen Warhammer Each Battles. It's a music system that was based on more or less sort of 4th edition. And that that got me into the historic gaming side in a big way because I have most of this. I don't have Trafalgar, so I don't really care about boots, but I have a lot of the other
Warhammer historic stuff. And when it started, if you wanted copies, the very first publication of Warhammer Engine Battles, you would phone head office and would ask to be put through to either Jervis Johnson or The Perrys, who literally had boxes sitting in their office wherever they were working.
You know, I'd like to buy a copy of whatever Engine Battles, please, Alan, and then, you know, send a cheque through and they would package it up and send it off because it was separate from, you know, we can't let them be. A lot of trolls do this because this is getting in the way of their real job. If you guys want to write it and sell it, that's all on you. It was so bizarre in a fanboy way. Yeah, of of of phoning up and and asking, you know, asking the writer, can I buy a copy of your
book, please? That's right. I know. It's. I know it's a completely separate thing and it's a bit of a passion project I think, for those guys, because they finally get back to their final like their roots of war gaming and do some historical stuff. I actually played it and it wasn't a bad game. I painted 80 hairy naked Germans. The Ancients. Yeah, for the ancient setting and.
Yeah, I don't really want to take another naked German ever again in my life, but I did play it and it wasn't a bad game. And yeah, it is based on the sort of early editions of Warhammer. Yeah, yeah, that's probably one of the reasons why I liked it As far as as far as ancient rule sets go, it still has a massive popular following behind it, but
I moved away as far as my own. Historic and ancient gaming went into different directions, but it was a it was a nice foot in the door because there's always that, there's the accessibility of game to our chop. Their games are everywhere. If people Google Wargaming, it'll probably be right at the top and then going. But I really want to do, I've just watched Gladiator and I really want to do Romans against naked German Barbarians. How do I do that?
And then you go Romans against barbarian Warhammer. You know, ancient rule set and pages of Pompey. You know everybody has written one and then you're left going, but which one's the best? Whereas because Warhammer ancients just used the sort of the early iterations of Warhammer, apparently Warhammer itself was based on a an ancients rule set that one of the guys had been tinkering with
and then had been fantasified. So Warhammer Ancients is kind of a going full circle again, but it it meant you could go, well, here's the system I know, ergo I should be able to get into these these games quite easily. Interesting. Yeah. So what? What's on your hobby right now? Like, what kind of games do you enjoy playing these days? Fantasy has always been my passion and these days I mostly go Kings of War, which will probably, I don't know if it'll upset people, but who cares.
It was weird. Kings of War Kings of War came around at a time when I was still I was part of the Northern Wasters who were big Fantasy warmer Fantasy Battle Tournament side from Northern Ireland. They were also the Northern Ireland DTC team because there's not many people in Northern Ireland prepared to travel to play games. So I was always playing War Armor and we'd hit 8th edition. Actually, we were coming up to 8th edition being released.
We knew it was coming, didn't know what it was going to be like. And my own little grip, it was like, you know what? I'm going to, I'm just going to buy everything. I'll get every army book that comes out. I'm not buying anyone after this. I don't care about 9th edition or anything else that appears. We're going to stop at 8th and if 8th isn't doing it for us then we can go back to one of
the earlier ones. But the 4/5 year cycle of buying every book again is starting to annoy me and and sometimes you're buying it for no real change. 6th and 7th was. I think they changed 3 words and moved a comment and replaced with full stop. There wasn't really a massive change in it. So you know you're buying, you're buying a rule set for the sake of buying a rule set.
So even before it was launched and before they built the old world, that was going to be our stopping point and then they built the world and said, well, glad I glad I did that now and then afterwards I was like you know what the the 8th system wasn't working. All the systems were better, but smaller footprints, smaller model can't really.
Do you have this sort of expanding frontage if you want to think of it like that for Warhammer Ware, first the third were very small forces, you know 50-60 models. That was the sort of the style of the things. And then as time went on, it went from that sort of 50 inch models up to 2 to 300, You know, it's like how many models can you pack on half the points increase the the model count. And so for a while I was running Warhammer armies and then I'd picked up Mantic. It just started.
So I'd started picking up the dwarves and I'm dead for fantasy. So a lot of my early mantic stuff, so individual base and so I was pre ordering things like the worst berserkers and the like. So I was there before Kings of War was a thing and then they started putting in the little four page, Here's our little mini Kings of War rules that think coming.
And then it was the very first Kickstarter I ever backed was Kings of War when they decided to release their first edition, and we're looking for funding for that. And as far as the mass battle game goes for fantasy, it does what I what I wanted the later editions of Warhammer to do, which is to have that grand scale loads of figures on the table, but magic not be all-encompassing and heroes not
be all-encompassing. The real fight is the fight of the armies and magic gives a little nudge here. Or heroes can support the units but can't take off a unit by themselves. So. So at one stage I had two dwarf armies, A mantic one for Kings of War and a GW slash mantic one for Warhammer, and likewise I had my own death doubled. I doubled up on 3 armies and then I looked at myself at one point where why the fuck am I doing this? Why am I? Why am I buying and painting two sets?
I mean theoretically I can just play either or or I can play in one army in both, but I just I wanted to keep them separate at one point. You know GW stuff stays with GW and Mantic stuff stays with Mantic. And I was like you know what this this game just works for me for pushing Pike forward and slamming big blocks of of cavalry at the people. So I just went the the way of of kings of war. Since then good to. Hear man, haven't you joined? Then that's good.
Yeah, that's not to say I won't go back to Warhammer at some point because like I said, I'm still with that big dog to war me and I have a huge tub of marauder LED dark elves including dark elf witches. Matches on temple dogs. Do you remember the temple dogs? Remember when Foo were a thing? I'm sure that that would probably be a tasty penny on the old flea Bay as well. I. Bet. So yeah, I was actually eyeing off some of the old Marauder Dark Elves.
I still think it's the best range they ever made. I was never a fan of the later models for 4th edition, but I think the 3rd edition ones are just beautiful. 3rd edition is stunning. And that's it. They're all stripped. They're all original legs. They're all mine and they're sitting in a big tub waiting for me to come and rescue them and and put them on and pry them and pin them up and I and what I do, It's by God, though people will.
People will start to bask in the metallic green and metallic purples that I shall apply my amethyst. Purple is still liquid in its pot, shockingly, even after all these decades. So there'll be new, there'll be new modern techniques there. It'll all be old. Good to hear. That's a good question. Actually, you mentioned a couple of things. Kickstarter. Is it a curse or a blessing? Do I want to give the minimize both answer? I think I may have. I may have talked about this
recently. Oh, I. Think you have. You've had it. You've had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not happy drinking for four hours, so I'll stream myself on this one. It's a it's a blessing for smaller companies in that the thing Kickstarter does is twofold. It tells you whether or not there is a a product that people
want. And at the same time it also promotes that product far beyond the reach that a lot of companies could do, because even the I think it's between 10 and 15% Kickstarter taking fees advertising wise that is not a
drop in the ocean. If if a company do, I've got a new game or a new miniatures range and I want to go and advertise it and they want to advertise it on Base of War and Daka Daka and send it off to Angry Joe or Asha Gorilla, you know there are big prices behind those which people may not realise. So being able to go it's going to cost 5 grand to make and they're going to take 10% of the
fees or 15% of fees. But that the fact that Kickstarter will push that themselves and do the whole projects you love and that sort of thing that's worth its weight in gold cannot devalue that at all. However, subsequent to that, in the past ten years and certainly in the past five, it's really changed into becoming a massive pre ordering system and a massive pre ordering system for some big big companies and they they put it up as like a mark of
honor. This made 3 million, this made 1/4 of 1,000,015 minutes, that sort of thing. And at that point all I can think is why are you on here?
Why is Coleman here not a website for reading people's paying jobs pushing zombie side 57 on there when there's you know a small one man operation who's been hand sculpting some stuff and needs £300 to get molds made, you know, and they can't get the bite of day because all all the oxygen has been sucked out of the room by these massive beer moths. He really don't need it and that it's got to a point.
And I think I mentioned this about towards yeah, Jamie Tranter he wants to do a second range of miniatures. He did a set of World War 228 mil Polish which are absolutely stunning. I have the full set and great for bold action players. Any bold action players listen to this should go and have a look for Jamie Tranter's polls. If you haven't seen them, they're fucking phenomenal.
But he has subsequently been attempting to get a set of 40 odd towards to Kickstarter for about three or four years now. Brexit came in. When the Sculptor started sculpting them, there was no Brexit, so he was due to ship them from Spain to England. That was going to be fine. Then Brexit arrived. The Sculptor finished them, sent them. Jamie ended up having to spend like two or three months worth of wages to get them out of customs because of the value of them because they now had to pay
those. So that delayed it and then and then he was going well there's some break just I need to get them back to him to fix them and bring them back and and the idea is he's got a set of beautiful like 40 or 50 dwarf models with a very 3rd, 4th edition toward feel. They they look like marauder dwarves from that period and they look absolutely gorgeous and and he's going but I can't launch the Kickstarter until I've already got the bulls made.
I've already got a professional painter to paint them. I've got photography. I've got this. I've got this and going but at that stage you what you need the Kickstarter for and that's the Kickstarter has just become a pre-order. What he should be doing is going. I've got these 40 odd miniatures done. Here's the greens that they look phenomenal. I need you to help to get them
over the line. I need you to get the molds made and get the casts made and then shipped out to you, but that's not the way people see tick starter these days. If if you're not already 100% done and have no reason to be there, people with super backer in brackets beside their name start getting into the comments bitching going. I expect to see the completely written rule set and play tests done and a free PDF download of the rules that you want us to
buy in advance. Or I want to see that and it's it's this idea because big companies have come in and and went here's our stuff, our stuff's all done, ready to go. We just need you to buy it essentially. You know that's not what Kickstarter was ever supposed to be and it's it's shifted the whole platform from being a collaboration to fund something to being a pre-order system to release something. And that boils my piss, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that. I think it was commonly or not. Was it comedy or not? I think it was them. They had that Metal Gear Solid game and board game and they didn't even kick started. Those let us have like a pre-order from their site directly. And the the the the weird thing about it was even though I was interested because I love the original Metal Gear Solid is that you had to pre-order it in order to get the the the Rex
model. So if you didn't get, if you didn't pre-order it you wouldn't get it in the set. Which is just stupid. This is a stupid idea. It's like Hasbro's hero quest with Holtz or whatever it is. So a lot of companies now have looked at Kickstarter and went this is a great way of pre ordering and then eventually
somebody at the top goes. But why are we paying them 15% to do this when we can do pre-orders on our own site and not pay anything and all of a sudden and God bless them, I really want Hasbro and Cool Mini or not and everybody else to piss off and do the pre-orders on their own site out of my way and let Kickstarter get back to helping small companies produce things that you ordinarily wouldn't say.
John Hudson and Annie Norman from Bad Squid, who recently did the set of background books, sci-fi and generic sort of fancy and landscapes free to put behind your minis when you're taking photographs of them. And they did a physical and like digital versions, really small Kickstarter niche. I mean at no point have I woke up in the morning and thought, I really wish I had a digital sci-fi backdrop miniatures
behind. But having said that and having seen what they've done going, that's a really good idea. I love that. I'm so glad to see it. And that's what I want to see more of the the NDS, the small companies of which there are a myriads, actually guess a platform where they can produce something that they want to produce that might be beyond their means.
Normally I know Fugu, Fugu and Cornwall do absolutely stunning resin buildings and they do little Kickstarters every now and again for historic slash, fantasy, slash, sci-fi and post apocalyptic buildings. And they use Kickstarter in the platform and I'm sure, I'm sure it's a real benefit to them. Although I've still not got my Brock yet. If you're listening to this, I really want a Brock but but that
that's what you know. You go on, you go, holy shit, there's a Celtic stone ring Fort that can be also used for fantasy that Kev Adams has sculpted A goblin gate for. Where has this been all my life? I didn't know. I need one of these. And because I can use it for fantasy and I can use it for my historic gaming and I can stick some widgets and stuff on and go, it's kind of a weird Star Wars one as well because a lot of Star Wars is just, you know, widgets stuck onto old buildings.
It does everything and therefore I'm saving money by buying it. And you can't tell me I'm wrong, but it's those. It's those companies I want to see on Kickstarter, not the companies that, not the companies. They've got shareholders who are looking to work out how how far they can stretch their dividends next year if they put another threes on beside Kickstarter's up. And that is the end of my branch. Very well said there, but I think I agree with you Jerry.
Actually I think it's. It should be there for. You know, the the small indie guys and women out there who would just try to make something for themselves to share with other people who would be interested in, in buying and backing their dream project. And I think we should see more of that. But I did like that backdrop thing. I think that's a really good idea actually, that Annie had. And I thought that was a really ingenious thing, actually, because we we do it sometimes,
we paint the backdrops for our. Photo photography and that kind of thing, because with some old hammer and that's the old hammer style, but I think that idea is a really good one because that way you can just flip a page and then you've got a new back backdrop, you know? And I think it's a really nice idea. So things yeah, it's great.
I mean the artwork was done by John Hudson, who's done art for a whole host of things, who he's worked on Warhammer stuff for Cubicle 7 and Lord of the Rings stuff for them as well. I think he's he's he's a fantastic artist and he also has his own little website called Handiwork.
Yeah, I think I think it's called Handiwork Games where he has some really out there RPGs which obviously takes one massive box for me and then also some historic RPGs based around Beowulf and they have miniatures for Beowulf as well. So you can play out the the epic sagas, the old, the old English sagas of Beowulf. And so yeah, right there, little indie design company Double Tech. All of that. Wow.
OK, that's good, mate. And yeah, it's good to see some of my friends who, you know, who have been, you know, passionate about things like confrontation, you know, releasing their own range of miniatures and that kind of thing. So it's really nice to see that being put on kick start and people appreciating those kind of projects and picking up something very unique. And you know, I I wish you know
those guys all success and I hope those. 2 individuals in their small companies who are those amazing dwarf sculpts, actually get those on Kickstarter somehow or some kind of crowdfunding, you know, platform where they can realize these and put them on the market and people can actually buy them and appreciate them and paint them and that kind of thing. Because there's some really wonderful stuff out there. So yeah, I think Kickstarter should be utilized for those
kind of projects. Yeah. The confrontation stuff is is stomking and confrontation is well, we haven't got near us and time is marching on. I've no, I've no idea how long you've got so I don't want to drag this too far. But we. Might be we'll have to bring you back again, Jerry, because I know you're a busy man, mate, and you have to go to work and Oh yeah, yeah, I will, I will, I will soon. But yeah, because. Because confrontation is a whole
other Congress for. Me, another kind of worms at some point and delve into because I I as as Alyssa's will know. I do like that Big R Rackham and confrontation and everything it entails because it's kind of the it's old hammer, it's a French old hammer really. That's what it is to me. And yeah, yeah, we we, we won't have the conversation. I'll definitely be back to
discuss confrontation. I can tell you, by the time I I killed the company in Northern Ireland, I killed a company in Northern Ireland. I can't say 100% certain it was me, but I did. I did convince them to stop confrontation and they got a lot of confrontation and it didn't go anywhere. And then they, they had a big sale on it and I bought it all. And then shortly after they closed. And I mean, it can't have been just me, obviously, they must have had other issues there.
But I can't help but feel, as I stripped the shelves of confrontation miniatures, that maybe he'd still be if he just stuck with his 20 mil, 172nd plastics that he'd been doing before. Paul Buggers. But as far as I know for everybody he's talked about these, you know, these independent stores, they're just owned by these people who have probably retired and got lots of money and they just want to put miniatures in his shop and sell them and they have no idea how to run a small business.
So yeah. That's probably how it ended, right? That's that's that's what I'm going to assume happened. Nothing to do with me. Nothing you really need. You really need to get this confrontation because of confrontation. It lives on in Ireland as well but hopefully have some. Positive news about that, but there is a lot of positivity about that. But we'll talk about that in another another conversation where we can.
We asked you back, mate, at some point, hopefully with some other news about that, maybe some more new news about that. So who knows? Yeah, yeah. Who knows what will happen in the future with confrontation. Well, Jerry, it's been an absolutely fascinating. Talk with you mate. I really appreciate your time coming on to talk to me. And the listeners can of course listen to you, and I'm sure a lot of them know you already because of your connections with on Tabletop.
And if people don't know anything about you or never heard about you, I really insist they go and check out on Tabletop on YouTube. And watch the Weekender, because I always enjoy listening to that, you guys talking about all the new releases and the indie of the week, which is my favorite part actually, and as you also like that. Yeah, I think I like that. And I think people should come and check it out to see what other small businesses out there are creating for you, for your hobby.
And it's really important we support these people out there 100%. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to bend everybody's ear. I can't wait to come back. Who knows about? That one to have you back, mate. Be really nice. I really like I said, I really enjoyed talking to you and I I'm sure we could talk about many other topics for many hours to come. But in the meantime, people check out the Sun dude on YouTube channel as well, where you can listen to Jerry every week.
Talk about stuff as well so they can catch you in two places. Two different places, mate. Poor, poor bastards. They can't get enough of Jerry now, so that's good. All right, buddy. Well, take care of yourself. Cheers, man. Until next time, take care. Bye, bye, bye, bye None.