Fury off the F'n Chain!

Hello and welcome to the Chronic Main Podcast. This is Josh, your host, and today we have another flashback from another live stream I did on Chronic Command Games. You can go and watch it there if you want to watch the actual video of it. It's great to have the interactivity with the people that jump on the live streams. And just a just a note about the audio quality. It's not absolutely 100%. So I've tried to clean it up as

best as I can. And there will be a bit of coarse language in this one as we have two Australians. I was very clean. I I didn't say one bad curse word. So that's amazing for me, but I'm I, I was very happy to have and host Kent Fury all the way from Newcastle, Australia, talking about his D bad system and my good friend and patron Cody from Tennessee, the US. And luckily we had all the times, you know, lined up together and everyone could meet on that time, which is

wonderful. I really appreciate everybody who can just make the time to come and talk to me to deliver their story, to deliver their passion about the hobby and and whatever it might be and talk about it. So that, you know, we hope to inspire others to start or maybe consider coming back to something like second edition 40K, allowing them the information for resources how they can do that and hopefully just, yeah, just giving them some just words of encouragement.

So I hope you guys enjoy this chat today with Kent and Cody and their perspectives on 2nd edition and there as like me and Cody would come back into second edition, you know, not so long ago. I think we both share that same experience coming back into second edition. But Kent is is a veteran of this system. So he that's why the D bad system is there that he created. So give it a chance. Give it a listen.

Listen to the the great man himself, Kent Fury, talk all about it. And I just hope you enjoy our podcast today, our flashback from one of the live streams we did before. So guys, sit back, relax, get your paints out your brushes, get your miniatures out, especially your second edition of stuff if you got it there, and enjoy our interview today. Howdy, howdy how's? It going. Yeah, yeah, mate. All good. Thanks Ken for joining us mate. I know it's a bit difficult for you.

Me and Cody usually join up every now and again. We're we're free and free and footloose. But you are, you know, you're sort of a bit constrained on time mate. So thank you again for taking the time out to come and join us and talk all about the D bad rule system. Hey. My favorite? You seem really enthusiastic about it, but yeah, it. Is what it is.

But we're, yeah, primarily talking about Second edition 40K for the purposes of people who are just so the peering through those, you know, through the curtains of the windows saying, oh, that looks pretty good. That looks quite exciting. So, I mean, back in the past, they never got to play, or maybe they did play it back in the day, like all of us, and then have returned after many years later out of Second edition and coming back into it for the first time or what our

impressions are. But I think most people are familiar with Cody and his GM Cody channel and that kind of thing. But maybe Kent, you've been on the podcast a couple of times, mate. But just briefly, what's your history in 40K second edition buddy? I started in Rogue Trader, did that for a bit, but then when Second Egg came in, I was working at Games Workshop and as you know, working at Games Workshop running, what was it, 10 to 20 demo games a day

minimum. You get a really good understanding of Second Edition from that. We played a lot in store, we played a lot with our mates and I never got to play competitively, only against other Games Workshop guys and also the guys that came into the stores late at night because you weren't allowed to play proper games in the stores in those days. So I played a lot, a lot of second at 40K, broke the rules

completely and ugly you could. You can't even imagine how dirty and filthy we played it back in those days. And from that time, you know, once you push the system to the limit, you start going, OK, so this book's broken. This is broken, this is broken. Whatever. I actually want to go back to what I like doing, which is strategic war gaming. And that's where D Bag came about. All right, OK, mate.

Now tell us about their army, because we I think I know what your favorite favorite army is. What what's your favorite army, mate? You like to? Play in second hand like so I I haven't told you this but I'm off space walls. Me and space walls are done what you can fake the you can fake the latest you can fake the latest heresy series for this. Because I think Ross was wrong. He catted it at the end. He should have taken out Horace when he had the chance, but he didn't.

He should have taken out Magnus when he should have, but he didn't. My Lord. And then I'm just off them like because if if Ross stayed on terror, it would have been a different story. But he did chose not to. And then he didn't do what he set out to do off the walls completely off. Having said that, in 2nd Ed. So for the last three tournaments, so the first one I ran was my Space Wolves, which I love. Then I ran my Imperial Guard, and then I ran Jean, still a cult.

And out of the three, I actually prefer running Jean, still a cult more than anything else. Didn't have many rules, but you just that little combination and just a bit of freewheeling and under the D badge system you could come up with some really, really cool combos at a low level. And Jean Stiller's really punch hard. So I've always liked that sort of narrative. And you know, you get to have the cool limousines and all that sort of thing with Jean Stiller Cult.

Yep, absolutely. I got to taste what that was like when I painted up Khanifax for a cult army. I actually got to put in the table for very first time. But I've always been, I've always liked the Jean Stiller cult theme. The majors, The patriarch, The Jean Stillers. Yeah, it was so cool. Yeah, sounds. Cool. Than the other the the the mainstream gene stills. I think the the cult just seemed just much cooler than the the mainstream ones, but that's cool.

Wait. OK Cody mate your your history and 2nd edition mate briefly. Yeah, well, we talked about it the last couple live streams and stuff. That was the first game that got me into gaming as a whole. So I got into it around 9596 when I was a kid. So back then when we played it, all we really had was the contents in this box sitting beside me.

And we might have had a few extra stuff, you know, I mean, and back then I played the orc side of this box set and I had, I think when Gorka Morca came out, I combined that stuff with what was in there. And that was my army back then.

Back then, I think I was the only one out of you know, it was really just, you know, the neighborhood kids, you know, the friend down the road maybe, and like my cousin, because my cousin actually had the rules in the box set and that's what we played out of. But the only one that understood the rules was me. And I'm not even really sure I understood all the rules, but I did understand how to play the

game. So I was teaching everybody else, but ever we're all, you know, 910 eleven years old and it they they didn't. You win every game, Cody. What's that? Did you win every game? I, I have no idea. I, I don't know if I, I have no idea, but there are some funny stories about that because that would pull out rules that the other people didn't know. Like specifically playing against my cousin. We were playing, we were playing this scenario, which I don't

remember. I think I got it out of a white dwarf or something and you were trying to hold and take a bridge, or maybe we just made it up. And so we set up like a river and we had this little bridge we made out of cardboard or whatever. And so I, I get over the, he gets his space rings over the bridge and I'm like, well, I'm going to start chucking grenades at your marines. He's like, you could throw

grenades. I'm. Like I'm. Like, yeah, dude, it's like right here on this, you know, this page or whatever, he's just like, no way. And he just didn't believe me. And I had to, like, show him the rule. I was like, yeah, right here, you can throw grenades and all this stuff. So yeah, it kind of went like that. But we're really, I mean, really we were just kind of like pushing models around on the floor. You know, when I was a kid, we

were just having a good time. And it wasn't until I got a little bit older that we actually, and it wasn't too much longer. Like when I got in middle school, we had a proper war games table and terrain and stuff. But third edition had come out by that time and I had left and we just kind of left second edition in the dust because I mean, we didn't know the difference. We were just moving on to

whatever the newest thing was. So I I played 40K off and on until I was probably about 17 or 18 and just completely got out of it. And the reason I got out of it is mainly because of the 40K fans. Hate to say it but it was not really what I was looking for in Wargaming. Like it was just over over competitive. The the the scene around here locally was not real nice or friendly people. They just wasn't a very good environment.

Even though I loved playing the game, I love the universe, I love the models, I just didn't have fun playing with the people that were playing it at the time. So I just got out of Wargaming completely until about probably 2010 and I got back into it after I got out of trade school and I was like, I really want to get back into wargaming and Warhammer actually wasn't my first choice to get back into it. I I started looking at other games. I was playing historical games

and just some other stuff. I wanted to play everything else but Warhammer because I had all these bad experiences playing Warhammer. But eventually I got dragged back into it and I actually found a good group of guys to play with. But I didn't like the modern iteration of the rules. I didn't like the models. I had fun playing just for the spirit of playing and I like the people that were playing, but I didn't really. I was like, I don't really like these rules.

I don't really like the models. I don't like the style, the aesthetic. And I started playing with my childhood friend that got me back into it. And he was like, why don't we just play the, the game we played when we were kids? That was way more interesting. Remember all that crazy shit that happened like vortex grenades and vehicles got going out of control and stuff.

I was like, yeah, let's do that. So we started getting back into second edition 40K and that was around probably 2012, you know, just a couple years after I got back into wargaming. And ever since then I've, you know, I, I've been playing second edition 40K and old, you know, amongst other things, but second edition 40K is definitely my favorite miniatures game without a doubt, like without hesitation, I would say that. Awesome man, That's great. So yeah, I think we've all sort

of for me too. I played it back in 95 when I came back from 96 when I came back from the UK, really started playing because I didn't play it before then. So played it with Marcus and a few other guys that I knew through the club, look club there as well. But yeah, it didn't have a great extensive, you know, history or knowledge of the game, to be honest. So it wasn't until that I met Paul and, you know, we thought

we could get him back in the second edition. 40 Ki bought the box set of Brad on Australia and some books and stuff like that. Got the orc army, classic Rd. trade orc army from a good friend David in the States in a, in a paint trade deal. And that sort of set the basis for us, you know, playing again. And yeah, it's been interesting coming back because there is a certain hidden gem about second edition 40K which is very quite

unique. It's obviously the it's, you know, Rd. Trader was like the Genesis. And then second edition became more of this full fleshed, fully encased kind of beast, you know what I mean? Like it took a lot of things, a lot of DNA from Rd. Trader, but they were sort of refined it and gave this beautiful colored gloss over with the cards and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

So for for guys who like for us who have come from, you know, playing in the 90s and playing now, do you still hold it as to be as one of the greatest games they've made or you're still one of your favorite games You play in terms of second like as in terms of any addition you play the 40K Ken, what do you recommend? It's a game is game. It's a game for people who really appreciate the time and

effort for wargaming. So even the guys when they created second edition, that was such a an evolving from Rogue Trader where they had to get they had to get commercial about it. They had to make something into it. But then they were able to take a lot of what Rogue Trader was the feeling, the flavor of Rogue Trader, that small skirmish game and put it into this game, which made it awesome. The invention of army books hadn't really been done until then.

That was a, you know, revelation in itself. You've got it's just the game itself works so well until it gets too big, until until you hit like 2003 thousand, 5000 points, the game just breaks down into an absolute mess. And that's where third edition comes into play, where you could put more models. Like if you listen to any of the stuff from the guys who created second edition, they all said, yeah, the game worked really well.

Small never worked, well, big. And as soon as the Games Workshop started producing more models, they had to come up with other ways to actually design the game, because the game wasn't ever designed for the model range the Games Workshop eventually had. But for me, if you want to have a small, fun skirmish game that's got all the flavor, second is where it's at. All right, pure gaming. Cool, OK, I think so too. Now we've got sci-fi.

He's joined us. Now I know he's in the UK, so sci-fi, you're awake at this time of morning, mate. This is like, I don't know what time it is over there, but bloody hell, it's late. It's like early morning over there. So thanks, mate, for joining us. Yeah. And Banjo Destructo. This means he's Richard. I don't know if that means Richard from from bringing Battle Richard.

I'm not sure. So I think he's referring don't be a Dick. So I have no idea, maybe gives a bit more context there and who which Richard you're talking about. But yeah, guys, look, look, yeah, I think we can all agree that, yeah, second edition holds a special place in our hearts from from the 90s. And of course, we're, you know, that nostalgia grab is, is quite strong for us. The models I think would be the biggest thing for me. Yeah.

Like I love my I love my Kev Adams second edition and road trader orcs and the JS Goodwin elder. And you know, you could you could string off a number of different armies, a number of different models that really encapture what it what it was like to play second edition. So guys, do you have any particular favorites of yours that you have either painted back in the day that you got recently and recently acquired and started painting?

Ken, what about you, man? I went through and repainted all my SO my first box set for Rd. Trader was the RBT 01 Space Marine box, where I've painted space walls because they're Gray and Gray was really easy to paint. This is before they became Nordic Viking space Mariaries. So you know, there is that last thing I painted for Rd. trade.

I actually, yeah, I got a 3D print of a Chuck Dreadnought and I painted it up for my Night Lords Heresy army, would you believe, just to annoy people, all these young kids that come into heresy and like, and yeah, they think they're old school because they're playing heresy. Go. I'm older than you mate. I'm so much. Older than you have this Chuck. This Chuck is predate heresy, but I still love doing that sort of stuff. I painted up some Eldar not long ago just to test my painting

skills. If I that actually come along at any sort of because you know, when you painted when you're younger compared to what you paint now and the style and techniques that you have are so much different than what we used to use. Like I'm like you, Josh, because you're a really good painter. I was shit, I was terrible and I was just taking me years and years and years of actually working on it. So it's nice to repaint some old models and you know, get get a bit of a jolly out of that.

I don't do goblin green bases but what are you guys feelings on goblin green bases? Like it's an absolute must back. How dare you not do that game. How dare you. But like even back in the 90s, even back in the 90s. And people probably don't know this about me. I never based anything with goblin green bases. Yeah, right. My second edition was based on black rim bases with like cat litter. You know that shit cat litter. We used to put that on the.

I never actually. Never actually paid a bill. So yeah, only now that I'm sort of doing Goblin Green basing now. But haven't you, Cody? It's not a it's not a must for me, but if I'm doing a second edition or Rd. trader specific army, I'm going goblin green bases. I like I, I actually do like I, I appreciate the aesthetic of it. And I think it really makes like, especially if you're doing like brightly colored, you know, very vibrant models.

They they really, it really makes them pop, you know, on the tabletop. But it's not a must for me. I mean, I do other types of basing, but if I'm painting an army from that specific period or you know, even a Warhammer Fantasy army I like, I like the Galvin Green for sure. I definitely usually go that route. Yep. I can't do it from from Games Workshop days and we had our painting tax. I know you remember the painting tax and everything.

Every model I ever painted for 2 1/2 three years had a Goblin green base. I was like, no, I'm fucking done, done, done with Goblin green. I get it. I get the aesthetic, I get what you're trying to put down. But my space walls, my when I repainted all my space walls, they're on like a nice icy snow base because it pops better with the Gray. You know what I mean? I've got, I do have some old

armies from back in those days. My mate who I used to work with, he actually gave me all his armies. They're all on beautiful goblin green bases. I appreciate it. I get it. But we have battle mats now. We have cool stuff. Now we don't play on goblin green tables that were painted in the shop. Yeah, yeah, totally. Just chip board painted green, right? Yeah, nobody's, nobody's rolling out a goblin green mat.

Well, I, I, I'll be honest with you, I'd still kind of, I, I appreciate the modern aesthetic as much as I appreciate the, the, the new aesthetic. So occasionally I like going down nostalgia lane and just rolling out like a green cloth and laying out. School. Like terrain and playing that way. But I have, you know, like, yeah, I've got tons of really nice battle mats and tons of 3D printed terrain and stuff. And, you know, I, I'll go both ways. I appreciate all aspects of that.

So I can see both sides of the coin on it. And I, I like both of them, you know? I think one of the one of the manufacturers need to come out with goblin green. Just flat Goblin green. No texture, just Goblin green. Just all that sucker out because at least they don't get the aesthetic. Yeah, yeah, you'd be all over it. It's like, at least I get the feeling of a nice mat underneath my miniatures and like these are old lead miniatures. When they fall over then I smash into 1000 pieces.

This would be a good thing, right? There you go, mat makers. If you're listening, Goblin Green mat. All our second head players will buy one. Well, let, let let me enlighten you, Oh, creator of D bad. You can take. Oh yeah, you can take a photo of my table, right, Like I've got. Yeah, all flocked. Yeah, it was all flocked. It's flock table. I'll take a photo of that. I sent it to I think Frontline Gaming. Yeah, they. Take that image, they

superimpose it onto the mat. They they basically screen print that image onto the mat. So I could have what I have here on an on an actual, you know, mouse mat thing. Nice. So we can have the goblin green one side and then we can have the Necrom on the Gray on the other side. Don't like it, but you know when we when we played in back in the day, we never had a goblin green flocks board. No, we never had them in the shops. It's a chip board painted Goblin green. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. And we played on the. Floor and if you're really fancy you got the train railway grass mat and you roll that out and you you glue that your table. I still got mine from from 1995. My mate gave me my his table, a three-part chip board table. It's got a railway glass on it with every stain known to man on it. That's. Great to inquire any further on that one, but yeah, OK. But yeah, but yeah, like mats

are great. I I can't, I can't ignore the fact that it's nice to you know, you can so smooth and silky smooth. You can push, I can push my little UN unmoved trade regiments across the table nice and easily. It's feeling of the dice rolling on them and that kind of thing. So yeah, I'm not, I'm totally not opposed to the new, the new technology out there with making maths. I think it's bloody amazing.

You know, I use them myself. But yeah, in terms of like old school gaming, you got to, you got to do the old school way. I think that's my philosophy. I did. Nigel Stillman coming through with me, I think maybe. Yeah. Sci-fi says how could I miss this? Well, I'm really glad to see you here mate. I'm really glad you could come on. And I don't know what time it is over there, but yeah, please get some sleep. But hey, it's Friday and it's Friday over there for you guys,

so you should. Be all right, he probably hasn't gone to bed yet. No, probably not. As for zombie, thanks mate for coming on group. We've got guys right here, greens from Texas. Yeah. He's a good buddy of mine. What's up? Cool. Nice, awesome, and Goblin Green all the way. There you go, Testament. Goblin Green all the way. Well, it's it's a divider. It's something that, you know, people. Sorry, I didn't. It's it divides the community sometimes. It definitely divides the Facebook group.

If you post a miniature on a Facebook group without a goblin green base, you get the purest coming out going. You can't do that. No, just get over. I will paint my little men the way I want to paint them, mate. I'm not. I'm not going to tell you how to do what you want to do, mate. You just do whatever you want. Exactly what's like happy mate. It's like when you take a second Ed miniature that are normally bright, colorful.

And you know, I do appreciate the aesthetic of a crisp paint job, but I also my preferred painting style is grim dark. So I really like grim dark marines. I like grim dark more. My chaos is bright, but it's kind of gritty at the same time. So what you got to do? Just get them painted like we're all older now. There is no excuse to have a second head army that's not

painted. You've had an ear, can roll it up. So don't come rolling up to me wanting a game of second head and pulling out Gray. The few of you, Not on. Yeah, yeah. Not on. Yeah, We, we I think Cody's the same. We don't play unpainted stuff, you know, Everything has to be. Painted. All the terrain has to be made and and painted and. I have an 80% rule. To be honest, I actually have an

80% rule. You can have 80% of your army has to be painted, and that 20% can either be partially or it might be something you're trying out. I get it, that's fine. But the game's about immersion. Be immersed, that's it. Rock up and Gray. That's it. Otherwise play tabletop tactics or the tabletop, what is it called? Tabletop Simulator. You've got everything done, everything's painted, everything's done, everything's, you know, all there but. How do you guys feel about

Tabletop Simulator for 2nd Ed? I like it. I think it's fine. I do it a lot because I have good friends of mine that live thousands of miles away. Yeah, and you know, we can't play. I don't have like I would do remote gaming. I don't have room here to set up a 4 by 6 table and you know remote do that like I live in a one bedroom apartment. It's just not going to happen. My wife would be quite furious if I set up a war game. So. But maybe, maybe I should do it anyways do?

It on the bed mate, do it on the bed. Yeah, yeah, totally. I just do it on the floor like we did when we were kids. But yeah, no, I I don't have a problem with Tabletop Simulator at at all. I use it quite often to play games. I think it's, it's not the best way. Like I'd much prefer to go over to my friend's house and have a beer and take our time and have all the nice terrain and miniatures. I mean that like you were saying, Ken, I think that's an important part of gaming,

period. Miniature gaming especially is the the aesthetics of it all laid out, all painted, and you're sitting there and get to it's. Yeah, I mean that that really is what that's like half the fun, right? If, if, if your army is laid out right and with all the good terrain, like it's just, it's not you're, you're, you're missing out. You know, the game is only half the fun. Or really I'd say like a third, like 1/3 of it is hanging out with good friends, having a good time.

The other third is like having these beautiful painted armies with terrain. And then the other third is the actual game, you know, So yeah, for, for, but for me, like just to play a game and, you know, even, and if you know, me and my buddy want to have a game like, and he lives 2000 miles away, Tabletop Simulator is a decent choice. I think it's really the only, I think there could be a better software made. I don't think it's perfect.

It has a lot of problems, but for me it, it works fine for for what it is, you know, like, and it's still the best thing that I've found digitally where we can actually play games like that. And it works. Works fine and. That's that's a decent point block you got there, Cody. Yeah, it's. A British pint glass. But yeah, I think that's, that's the reason why we've gone down this rabbit hole.

You know what I mean? Collected all these armies, spent all that time painting it. You have the satisfaction with your, the person you're playing with. They reciprocate, they paint their armies and you have a beautiful looking display because it's the spectacle, isn't, isn't it? At the end of the day, that's what you really get to enjoy the achievements of doing all that work. So sci-fi says it's like 3:30 AM, but Friday night is so it's all good. Nice one. OK, Astra Zombie.

Says he hasn't gone to bed yet. Yeah. I just like mine. All goblin green. Fair enough mate. Our group is a house rule. Unpainted as in -1 armor save. We painted stuff as quick as we could. We should be like goblin or something. That's a good rule. I like it. Yeah, it's good. Also, when you have fully padded armies you get even better dice rolls. At least convince your opponent that happens. Yeah, well. That's not for the first time you field it.

Whenever you freshly paint an army or a model or a unit and you put it on the field, it dies in the first shot. Yeah, that's really sad. And then every time it's awesome. It's awesome. That's a new one. I like that one. It's awesome. You know, you know where it really picked up that culture from though, because for the longest time I didn't, I, I, I always painted, always painted models, but I never got anything done.

But I really picked up that culture of getting everything painted and done from the historical guys. Yeah, yeah. But they get immersion like. They understand immersion like. Exactly. And they have. So much links for their tables and everything. Yeah, and those guys, you know, I when I got back into gaming, I I found a historical club here and those guys are all older guys and you know, it's, it's a proper like old school war games club.

You know, they have the spot, they play somebody, somebody brings all the stuff, sets up the game, referees the game and runs it for everybody else. And there's usually like two or three games being ran every every week, right? Like they, they meet on Tuesday nights and they do that every week. But when I started going to them, I really that's when it really clicked with me that, you know, these guys know how to do it.

And this is so much more fun when when you know all the all the miniatures have painted and everything else. So I'll give props to the historical guys because they really, they were the ones that properly taught me how to war game you. Know pretty good drinkers as well. Yeah, Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, dude, I, I they're good drinkers. Holy shit. They they drink like fish. But I find that the historical war gaming is where war game is

going to die. Because once you play with historical for a long period of time, you're fucked. That's all. I have my sell your 40K, sell everything. Once you've called down that rabbit hole, you're gone. Because what are you going to do? Just argue over Napoleonic rules for the next four years? Yeah, you will, because you'll change them like underpants. I've had the opposite experience actually. A lot of the like the lot of the

guy. Obviously I play historical games and I still play 40 KA lot of the. Oldest 40K you could find. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. But you know, a lot of the guys, historical guys I play with, they're, they actually are really set on, they found their game, right? They're they're, they have to hop around to games. Like, you know, there's one guy in the club, he does World War Two and they play command decision.

That's what they play. You know, they have like, you know, and they play, we play Civil War, we play volley and bayonet. That's what we play, you know, like, so it's like a club. It's become like a club thing where like they have like set rules for different time periods. Now if somebody brings in a different game, all cool, you know, like you're, you brought the game, we'll play it. But there there is these like standard games we play. And I really appreciate that.

So yeah, I mean, I kind of course that's completely anecdotal. It's going to be different from everybody's, you know? I'm just going from my experience, everyone in my mind to the historical path has never come back. Yeah. But anyways, we're we're talking about second edition down here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all right. We're for a bit. That's all right. The words of Fury and his compound there underground, and

some hidden base and spreading. Out a lot of time with my own, I get a lot of thoughts on my head and this is where it comes out. Right, that's it. That's what we've got on here mate. That's why we want your perspective mate. OK, so now talking about second edition, now if someone's you know, listening to this and they're kind of curious about second edition about, you know, what is this game, I never got to experience it.

I started a third edition or later editions and I want to go back and try out what this game was like. Now where would they go? And I would recommend, and I think you guys might agree here would be if they're, if they're a member of Facebook, go to the 40K140K second edition Facebook group where you can find the file section and you can attain a lot of assets through there. I'm just going to try to share

my screen here guys. And I'm going to just try to see if we can share that particular screen with our viewers. You can probably see it now, hopefully. That's the one. That's the one. OK, so it's got 8.6 men 8.6000 members, which is quite a quite a pretty decent number of people actively playing second edition or at least interested in this particular edition of of second edition. So I was expressing the coding

before as well. It's a great way to find other people and maybe located in your area that you could hook up with and play games with or at least go to a club or some kind of area or events where you could see it being played and maybe participate in something as most of the guys are very open and welcome about getting new people and new blood into the game.

So if you are a member of Facebook and you do find this group, which I highly recommend you go visit, you've got this file section when you click on here. It's got a load of stuff in here and I'm pretty sure you'll find the actual rule books and stuff like that here. If not here, then you can find it somewhere as APDF online that you can happily download and read through at your leisure.

But there's just a ton of information that was released, of course, with White Dwarf magazine that came out through the 90s for various different vehicles with their down effects cards, because second edition was the time in the 90s where cards were a thing for psychic powers, for war gear, and of course, all the data effects cards for the vehicles. So you'll find a lot of stuff here, either either user created or official content that was released during the 90s.

You've got a wealth of information that you can go in through and source from here, guys. Any other comments about this particular Facebook group that you want to mention at all? I think, yeah, I, I mean that that's the place always direct people. I think it pretty much has all the resources you need to get started. And I'm pretty sure we're going

to bring it up next. But the, the 1st place I would recommend starting is actually the the Battle Bible, which you can find, you can find on the Facebook group there. And that's probably the 1st place that would start, I don't think. It's yeah, definitely. I think the Battle Bible itself, because it has all the White Dwarf, all the erratas, everything built into the one spot, it means you're not flicking between things. You don't get a lot of mixed messages about things.

And as a general rule for, you know, when I play second at 40, Ki always say we're playing by Battle Bible. It's just a lot easier to it's has every codex in there, has every book in there. It's all up to date as much as it could be and you know if this is what was used in tournaments in the last of the 2nd and 40K tournaments. So the last one that was ever held in Australia was actually run by this, you know what I mean? So and also the ones in the UK were run by this.

So if you want the most up to date rules as as an old system can get this is the place to be then go out hunting then go hunting for you know old cards and dark Millennium boxes and stuff like that. If you want to get the nuance and the feeling of it, all the cards and stuff, but you can actually play the whole game just from this. Awesome. OK. So yeah, as like camp was saying there, it's got everything within a 275 page document here as APDF.

So any of the any of the rules, any of the Omnibook codexes that you needed, it's everything's contained in one particular file. So that's a really important resource for anybody who's either an active player or anybody who wants to jump in and try having a look and not having to spend any money initially. You can find it here on the battle book. So I've I've left a link in the description here. That's for the Newcastle legions website, which is has a link in there as well.

But you can find this online. You you just just type in there. Second edition 140K battle Bible. It will come up in some iteration that you can download for yourself and have a look. So so thanks guys for sharing that information for people out there who might be quite kind of curious about it now also sci-fi just mentioned here. Are there any journal articles there too? Man, there were massive amounts of in the.

Articles butter Barber's most up to date resource areas, so pretty much any FAQ that you've got in there will be in there. That was worth knowing with the journal staff. The journal stuff, some of the stuff just wasn't playable or usable. If it was playable and usable, it'd be in the Battle Bible. If it's not, it's more unique and niche and you can play that as you will.

If you've got journals at home and you want to use it, go for it. Some of the everyone knows, but this is like, if you want to play with people who don't know anything about it and if everyone's on the same page, this is where you go. It's a bit random sometimes if you rocked up and you go, I'm playing Battle Bible, but I've got this journal from March 1998 and it's got this one rule. It allows me to jam a vortex up your butt. It's like, come on, you're. Enticing, doesn't it?

OK, so obviously you're a veteran, Kent, and you've actually got your own Facebook group. That's the road trader one, isn't it? For. Facebook Oh yeah, I created Rd. Trader 40 Ki think it's 40K Road trader. That's one of mine. I've had six. I don't know, I've been in this game, this thing for so long. I just started going off randomly creating groups. Yeah. So the Rogue Trader one is mine. That's a bit of a mix of Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed because they

do crossover quite a lot. Rogue Trader, for those that don't know, what's the precursor to 2nd Ed? 40K. That's why it's called 2nd Ed, because the 1st edition was Rogue Trader. It wasn't a very complete game. It wasn't until really towards the end of Road Trader that it started getting a like a proper

war game. Before that was more of a role play game that you could use miniatures with and you can be very flexed with it. And then they're so old, the miniatures that they're kind of the fugly that only a mother could love type scenario. Like you're either really into them or you're not and you can't make them work. I love them because I've got a lot of them and they're worth a fortune each now. So, you know, congratulations if you've got some. But yeah, so that's my my page

on that page as well. On the road trader. I'm not sure they've got it on the 40K seconded, but there used to be a army builder called Army. What's it called? Army builder was the actual software program. So that's no doesn't exist anymore, but you can still get the army builder from that Facebook group and it's actually got the hack in it. So you can actually load up for your seconded stuff and build army lists out of it. All right, OK.

So instead of using the old pen and paper and all that sort of stuff, you can actually build your list as per normal and it's all in there as well. So that's all on the road train. I'll find, I'll find the link for you and send it to you. You can post it up. But yeah, so when when I ran tournaments that that's how I did it.

So then everyone was writing, I wasn't receiving, you know, somebody's dodgy Excel spreadsheet or somebody's handwritten army list where I had to work everything out. So I'd make them do that because it even works out the percentages. So, you know, for your character percentages and you know, troops a percentage, all that. Yeah, I think Khan effects any one of those. I think it's from another I think. It's battle Battle scribe. Battle Scribe does.

It too I think battle scribes doing as well. Now I'm not sure how how good it is compared to the old one, but anything will do. As long as everyone's using the same one, it's fine. It's pretty, it's pretty accurate. I've checked it against the codex's and stuff. It's it's pretty good. I I haven't noticed, I think I've noticed one little error in there so far from me using it. So yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, cool. Yeah, Battlescribe is free as well. Awesome.

Yep, that's good, because we all make mistakes. I do anyway. When I'm writing it by hand, I always do. I write. I write the wrong blood. I'll. Call that cheating, Josh. No, no, no, I do it. I do it. Like I said, battle to me, not to my opponents. It's like I'm screwing myself, you know? I do that really well. Stranglers, Wood hobbies. Afternoon guys checking in from 3:00-ish hours away from Kent. There you go, mate.

Nice to see you here. Yeah, but yeah, I often make mistakes with pen and paper, so having that sort of a nice modern digital application to do all that sort of stuff with is really helpful. Also that battle scribe. Also has a lot of has like a sheet with all the rules on there as well. It does. At the back end of it goes up just.

Because all that stuff I get to forget, you know, and that that way I've got to I can consciously see, OK, that does that, that a special rule for this, you know. So that's really hand handy. But again, it's like a it's like a non funded kind of app. It's not something you buy. It's something that someone's doing out of their own free time. So, yeah, anything, anything like that? Yeah, exactly, man. That's right. Exactly.

Yeah, they're doing it. I see comments on like on a lot of Facebook group pages and people start getting cranky at Army builders and like, this doesn't have this and doesn't do this, and it miscalculates it all the time. You're like, dude, you thought it was free. Work it out, sort it out. He's up. It's it's a stupid thing to use on your phone. I can't use it on my phone. I just it just I think on APC it

must be a lot better to use. I I will say one thing about Battlescribe, it's a little bit of a learning curve to set it up. So don't get frustrated setting it up like once you once you figure it out, you figure it out it but like it yeah, I'll just give a warning out there that I got a little frustrated the first time I was trying to set it up, but it it it works great. Like you can load up multiple games on there. It's pretty accurate.

I haven't again, I haven't found many issues with it. I really do love that it has all the special rules and stuff on there, which is really. I use it for all the game systems I play. Yeah, it's, it's fantastic. But it does take a little bit of a learning curve to set. It does, yeah. All right, so now we talked about the rules and how to get back into it. How about people finding miniatures and that kind of

thing? What kind of suggestions would you have about people who want to get the genuine article miniatures, the old metal ones? Cody, what do you reckon mate? Well there so you can go after the old stuff now. I do not recommend eBay eBay you you can still find a good deal on there occasionally and keep your eyes peeled on there. Nothing wrong with looking because case occasionally you'll find something on there. But the the best way to go is usually try to find trade groups on Facebook.

Try to hook up with people like on the crown of command right like these. These guys are going to help you like wheel and deal and find find you deals. Another good source is if you go to conventions, actually going to conventions. Now I understand that people like here in the US, we're we're pretty spoiled on conventions and people in other countries are not so much it depends where you live, but I've had really good luck here in the US going to conventions. And a lot of times they have

these flea markets. So don't go to the resellers. Don't go to the resellers because they're going to, they're going to they're going to have it priced. EBay prices go into the hall in the back hall where the guys just setting up his shit to fire sell and dig through all that crap. And you, you might look out. I've, I've found some really crazy deals going to those flea market sales at the conventions. So that that would be my other

suggestion. Another thing I would say is just look, look at like Facebook marketplace and Craigslist and stuff. Occasionally very rare, I have found like some deals like that. I've even found stuff at garage sales, believe it or not, you know, occasionally. So you just never know. You never know. Just just keep your eye out wherever you go. And if you're really determined, the thing I would say is just be patient. Don't settle, get what you want,

but just be patient. Don't don't just, you know, spend too much money. Don't spend more money than you have to, right? And if you have to collect just a few models at a time, fine, Just do it that like just get a few models, paint them up, you know, and then you'll find a few more models. Paint those up, you know, and just take your time with it. It's a hobby, right? And I, I think that's kind of part of the enjoyment of the nostalgic wargaming hobby is like hunting that stuff down.

It's like collecting, like I collect records and comics and stuff. It's kind of the same thing, right? Like it's, it's part of the fun. It's kind of the hunt of finding that stuff. But I, I think the best resource is hooking up with other people. So, you know, go to the crown of commands, a good one. There's other discords and Facebook groups and all that stuff. Get to know those guys, connect with people, they'll hook you up, right? Like just just ask around and they'll hook you up.

Yeah, very good advice, Cody. How about you can't? Any more words of advice there from the Battle Bunker? Yeah, even, like family and friends, you know, like you don't, you don't think about it being your social interactions when people find out you play. I call it Pew pews. If I go play Pew pews, what are you doing? I'm going to go play Pew pews for the weekend. They go. What are you talking about?

Toy soldiers? Oh, I've got a cousin's friend or kid who's had that and there's a box sitting in the attic and you want it and like, yeah, sure, bring it in. I'll. I'll take it off your hands. My best deals come up from that. Straight my eBay. No, I don't. I will not, no. I'll sell my stuff there and I'll do it by auction, but so rent time. The people on eBay have artificially inflated the price of stuff so badly to the point

where it's not even reasonable. It's not even unless you're talking to other people who know, like I'm on another Facebook group, I think it's called old hammer evaluations where people post up things and we give them a, a rough estimate of valuation and you, you give them a value for something they go, but that's not what they had on eBay.

And you're like, no, but that's what we're willing to pay for it. Like, and normally we're willing, willing to pay for second admin inches roughly is retail plus about 20% from back in the day, depending on the condition of it. Some models are worth more than others, but not very many are. You know what I mean?

Like they, they unless it's in a pristine box and you're looking at pristine stuff, then you're looking at retail plus 50% retail plus 80. Unless it's a super duper rare weird thing like a Goku Moka boss that was only around for like 5 minutes before it disappeared. You know what I mean? Or like the miniatures that come to my head. The Legion of the damn Sergeant. Oh yeah, you know, one of the, one of the, you know, the holy grails of miniatures is a Legion of the damn Sergeant.

You can. And like Cody said, it's like if you set your mind to it, you set the price you're willing to pay for it, then forget about it. That's what I do. I forget about, I go whatever, I'll just, I'll if it comes up, it comes up. So I had a thing where I was collecting dragon ogres for Fantasy Battle. And if anyone knows the dragon Ogre, it's a massive LED model. Back in the day, it was $49.00 for one. That's for one bloody dragon ogre in Australia.

It was 49 bucks. It was 50 bucks for one dragon ogre. I set my mind to Amara. I'm going to click some dragon. I guess I needed some dragon, I guess for whatever reason that I had in my head. And over a period of about four years, I've managed to collect over 25 of them in various bundle deals and bits and bobs and people just it just comes it's like the secret, all right, You put your intentions out in the world and they come to you. It's. Like a mantra.

Yeah, you got to say it's one dragon. You just got to put it out there and he just comes here like I was missing. Oh, that's actually a funny story. So thanks to Texas, I was missing the back banner pole of Carl Franz for Warhammer. All right, A random piece of kit went on to buddy everywhere, searched around, did everything. People were wanting like 50-60 dollars type sort of thing for one part of a model. Some random dude I just posted up in a place, but I'm looking

for this bit. I know I'm going to pay, you know, we're going to pay 20-30 bucks for it. I said look, I'm going to pay for it, whatever. Dude just sent me the whole fucking Carl France and said have it as long as you're paying it, do it. And I went it cost him $60 to ship it to Australia. This is in the middle of COVID. And then he sent me a sticker and he goes dude just remember Texas is great. I love. It now.

That's that's another thing that I would say is that this part of like the old school war gaming ethic, right, is to to. Get back. To get back. And like, yeah. And I, I do it all the time, right? Like if I have some models, yeah, if I got some models hanging around, I'm not using them. And somebody wants to get into the hobby and you want this army. Here you go, man. Like we'll make a trade or something. Whatever. I don't, I don't care. I got my fun out of it.

You get your fun out of it like and then I think that's and and, you know. Bags of shame. They can have a part of my bag of shame, I don't care. Just totally, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I'm all about it. Like, I'll just give stuff away or just make like a reasonable trade or whatever. Like it doesn't matter to me.

Like I, I, you know, and I think that's an important thing that us old school gamers realize, but a lot of the new school guys need to realize this, you know, that's, that's part of the, that's part of like just the old school ethic of war gaming. It's just giving back to people and get. Yeah, 100%, yeah. So yeah, keep it up and God bless Texas. Yeah.

God bless Texas man you. Love your Texas, Let's pass past the America shop that they're more interesting to me than the sort of northern areas or Midwest areas of America, to be honest. Yeah, I don't think my stomach would handle Texas, but. Yeah, oh, the food. Oh, man, Texas cooking, he said. It's Louisiana, but oh jeez, I. Think I just put on 4 kilos thinking about it. But that's a really important point that Cody made.

And I I've also been the recipient of some amazing generously people out there in the community because obviously, obviously the crown command is a big part of that. But obviously, you know, just once they know you're in that circle of or group of people on Facebook, they know you're genuine and they know that you're not going to just, you know, flog off what they sell you for cheap for, for a profit. They know that you're in the hobby for the right reasons and

all that kind of thing. And once you make those connections within with people in the hobby, it's like, it's like you say, it's like, you know, you get a good deal, you give a good deal, you know, it sort of reciprocates that way. And yeah, thanks, thanks to the amazing people in the Crown of Command, especially. We do that a lot through our Discord. You know, people sell it for a reasonable price. They get stuff for a reasonable

price. sci-fi sent me a very kindly sent me one part of the hot splat gun for Rogue Trader. I had the I had the I had the actual chassis, the the sort of the plate on the front, but I just didn't. It just didn't come with any guns. So he very kindly sent me one of those because he watched one of my videos on YouTube and said, Oh, you know, I've got I found this in my bits box here. Might you just take it, you know, so you can, so I can actually complete one, which is awesome.

So thanks for that sci-fi. That's great. So I've got one hot splat gun from Rd. trader. So we'll help each other. You know, we do that. You know, I help people out if I can, if I've got some something they need and I would rather them have it then paint it then play with us than it just sitting here in a box for God knows how many years and maybe never get touched or whatever,

you know? There's one golden rule though, if I give you something and then I find it on fucking Facebook marketplace or eBay, you are fucking dead to me. You are gone. You are a lot of the trash. Delete me from your friend group. I don't. I don't want to talk to you ever again. I've had it happen too. Oh, I've had it happen to me multiple. Times, yeah. Like, you know, I, I give somebody a good deal on something and then like they, they flip it like in a couple of weeks.

What the fuck? Dude, like, I'm hunting some stuff for my son. Can anyone help me out? Yeah, here's some stuff. And then you see it on fucking marketplace. It's like, no, dude, don't even know. Yeah, no. So there you go, young you Dick. Exactly. Well, that's a good segue there, actually. Again. So we're going to talk about don't be a Dick, because this is a system you've created with your guys there in Newcastle, part of Newcastle Legions, Yeah. Organized play of second edition 40K Yeah.

Yes, right. So for those that have played a lot of, and yeah, if you go into the 40K second edition Facebook group page, you'll see a lot of even like Josh's battle reports and things like that. You do a 2000 point game. There's certain hard restrictions within the rules of second edition that actually go against the style of play that actually intended for you to play with. And what I mean by that is 40K second Ed is really a drill

down, detailed skirmish game. It's not a grandiose go game of epic proportions. Unfortunately, that's where it went. So starting from the 1st army book, which I think was Eldar was on that space was the first book, then Eldar, and then we started going through. There was no balancing. There's no, you know, the game testing was just didn't exist. All right.

So as you progress through and then towards the end of the army book scheduling, they got to the point where they're like fuck people got to too many models and it's just getting out of hand. But they didn't care. It's just like just sell more models. Just sell more models. That was the creative, you know, genius behind corporate GW back in those days and still is today really, let's be honest. But D Bag came about from playing 2nd Ed at the highest level.

So one of my good friends, Dazzler, he actually won Moab. No, he won Cancon. So Cancon in Australia is, is the adept account of America. It's the biggest thing that we have. And in 1995 he won it with Harlequins. And this is a tournament over nearly 100 players. He was dropping blind grenades on people. He was creating blind screens, flipping over single solitaire, vortexing people, just totaling

armies individually. And awesome for Daria or so awesome for Dazzler. Not so awesome for anyone playing against him, Not so awesome for pretty much anybody who wasn't using those sort of armies. Like there's only like, by the time we got to the pinnacle of second edition, there was only a three or four tournament armies you could play that were actually any good that could do any damage. Everyone else sucked. Like Space Marines as a whole sucked.

Their armour safe wasn't good enough, they died in chaff. Like you have to be very creative with Space Marines to actually be able to make them stand up to the top. Eldar players to the top tier players to the top. Well, the other big armies that were really good at the time, Chaos was really good at the time.

And then if the tournament organizers allowed special characters, which will kind of outlawed and banned 90% of the time, it just blew the games wide open because there's certain characters that were just too far over the top. And if you put no restrictions on it, you know, And this comes back to a big problem in when I discussed these things, because it gets lost in translation a lot in Facebook.

When I read things that I say that I see the places where I come from and how much I've actually played this game and how I the details of where D bag comes from and seeing the dejection and the, the look of loss on somebody's face as a solitaire runs through an entire army because they do or, or a Banshee X arc with, with a Banshee X arc with power fist and something else with some swooping hawk wings. Just ransack your space Marine Lord.

You spend 15 hours painting. He just gets totaled in five seconds. You know what I mean? Like these are the sort of things that awesome if you're into that, if that's what you're wanting to do, if you want to go down the the the hedonistic levels of just play it like it was meant to. They didn't even know what they meant to play it as. They had no fucking idea. They were just trying to sell miniatures for fuck's sake.

All right, so don't stand on this pedestal saying, Oh, they root these rules because that's what they were trying to. They didn't know what the fuck they were doing. They didn't want the map ward books. They had no fucking idea what they were doing. They were just selling miniatures and each each book was more powerful than the last. It's it is what it is. Like I don't want a historical game where it's everyone sort of kind of balanced and even like I actually do appreciate power

creep. I find it very interesting and fun dynamic of these sort of games. Where the D bad stuff comes into is it started slowly. So it starts off with even when you read the Battle Bible, it'll start off with a virus strategy, the virus bomb strategy card. And when you read the when you read the Battle Bible, it'll actually it'll say no, this strategy has been discontinued and we don't recommend you use it. Yeah, yeah, don't fucking use it. All right, so that's the first part of D Bag.

It's like some things don't work, like they're just, you know, some things are just too powerful. Then we sort of started going. All right, so if we're not using the other thing, there's two strategy cards we don't ever use, which is the virus and the vortex. I think it's. Which one is it? There's virus outbreak. That's definitely a band strategy card. Another one I don't know.

The other one was there's this two, there's two, I've always been, it'll come to me. So it starts off with that. So you just take out those things. Then you start looking at the power imbalance of certain heroes because Second Aid becomes a hero based game very quickly. Is my hero enough to take out the other heroes? Can I get my hero across the board quick enough to take out the other heroes? Then you have the problem with vortex grenades.

All right, so vortex grenades is an instant death unless you've got a vortex detonator. Then you're talking about are you having hidden lists? Because for a Vortex detonator to work, you have to have a hidden list because otherwise there's no point in doing it. So in tournament settings, majority of the time it's not hidden list. You're actually explaining people what you've got in your

armies before you play. So we sort of go, well, we'll take out Vortex grenades, we'll take out this, we'll take out that. Anyway, so during a lot of this process, me personally running so many demo games of 40K and then stage demo games in Games Workshop. So a stage demo game is so you've run a kid through 15 basic games of the box set. All right, the code he's got in

his back there. Like, you know, you got your, you got your, what is it 2020 Gretchen or 40 Gretchen, 2 squads of 20. You got your 20 orcs. And then you got your dreadnought in a paper card. And then you've got your 10 marines. And you know, then you step it up and you go, OK, so you can have another squad of marines now you can have another little bit of this and you get kind of like what combat control, combat patrol is now for 40 K 10th edition.

So in the shops we were introducing this to the kids. So in the shops that I used to run, I would try to introduce the kid into 40K through the basic game. Then I'd step it up with a little bit more than I'd step it up and just keep building them into more and more. So then they'd go off and they'd buy a box set of marines and they'd buy themselves a hero or they'd buy themselves a chaplain. And then we'll go, OK, cool.

So we'll just have a hero based game with our generals because when you start adding generals sheet gets a bit weird. And then we'd say, OK, so I'm going to teach you how to make an army list. So here's a 500 point army list. He's a, you know, the the origins of a slow grow started here. This is where we started doing

this is a slow grow of an army. And then I'd take a kid aside and go, here's your 2000 point army, but we'll break it down to 500 chunks, paint it up, bring it in store and then we'll play it. It was at this stage that I noticed that around the thousand and we would break certain rules in this. So to make your 500, to make your thousand points work, you wouldn't be taking, you know, vortex grenades because they're fifty points like they're just

too expensive. You wouldn't be taking a general character. You only be taking a hero character at level two. You wouldn't be taking a psycho necessarily because you don't want to introduce psyching just yet because you didn't want to sell them a dark Millennium box yet because they've only got the basic box set.

So things like this sort of started happening and then when I came back to 2nd edition a lot later and I met up with Daz and we started working these sort of things out, we found that the sweet spot was about 1500 points. It was hero level characters, which is A2 wounded character that. And then we went right. So then we played that without any war gear. What does that look like? So we'd have a few games without

any war gear, any extra stuff. And funny things we noticed is that troops became really powerful again. A squad of marines was a scary thing. A squad of aspect warriors or even guardians with a with a weapon platform was actually a thing now because it could take out parts of the battlefield and went, oh shit, second aid actually has a lot of strategy, strategic depth to it. Then we go, OK, so if at 1500 points you can actually get quite a lot of troops and things like that.

So what we did was we go, all right, so using the same structure that is normally built into second 840K army list building, which is what 50% characters, 50% basic troops, 25% what is it supports heavy support. We went, OK, so make it 25% for heroes because we want to limit the amount of heroes on the battlefield because we want to make it focused on troops, 50% of troops and then 25% on support. And then we said, all right, how

about we do this? We go, you get 50 points of upgrades across the entire army, So whether that's vehicle cards, whether that's your Wargie cards, whether it's your X arc powers, whether it's your bio Morse for Tyranids and things like that, you only get 50 points worth as a total rule. So you're keeping the game really small, but you're also keeping the game really tactical.

Now, once you do all this and you've, you know, we've created that and we've got that and I've sent this off and, you know, people playing this out, cycles become a thing. It's like, all right, so you have to deal with cycles. So cycles can only be level 2, all right. Now, if you go into Dark Millennium, there's actually a way to work all this out. It's like 25 points per level, all right. And even in some of the army builders that actually have this actually built into it.

And so when you buy your Marine hero, you can just upgrade them 25 points per level where the only armies that break these kind of rules and like Tyranids, Jean Stiller, Colts, they're about it really like everyone else can work within these rules quite easily. Where I get a lot of pushback from 4K second head players is through the rules say that you have to have a general in your army and a hero is not a general. Why? Why Yeah, fucking this game again.

Their rules were shit when they wrote them. It's like they wrote it for when they wrote it and it didn't equate until you've got to like 10 army books and it's it's gone crazy anyway, if you want to do that, go the other way. This is how we're going to play it. We're going to play it tight. We're going to play it skirmish, we're going to play it good. Then we've got once you've got all this out, we go, all right, WYSIWYG, say everything you say.

Everything you want on the model has to be on the model type scenario, painted armies. All right, that's all good. I think with Tyranny we went that they have no biomorphs at all because they just go well out of the proportion of things. They have to have a hive Tyrant, which does boost you out of the hero level sort of character because they don't actually have a hero character to run in their army.

But if you take out the biomorphs, you take out their psychic levels or you can give them two psychic levels at 50 points. All right, they're actually quite killable. It's a crack miss. I was going to take him out. All right, you're devastated squad that you spent 15 hours painting 20. You know some people have spent 30 hours painting it might actually do some damage without dying in the first instance.

Now, on top of all that you've got once we did all this, we have played a few games of that and we we mucked around with it a bit. And this is where D Bad came into play. So with the missions and the way the missions work, you can actually gain even a system that's taken everything out. You can still game it. You can still be a gaming fucker. You can take Tyranny and then you can make all your you can take Tyranny and Eldar. They're the two ones that come

to my head. Oh, and guard the three, three armies that can really gain this system is that you can take units and make sure they don't go over the threshold for mission objectives. So you can go MSU, you can go multiple small units, and you can create an army that gives your opponent no victory points. Don't be a Dick. And that's it's that simple. It's like when we ran our first D bad event and I put this out, I said just don't be a Dick,

Like don't. And I I try to keep telling people like just play an army that you'd want to play against and you'll be fine. And then you still have people. And I said, look all right for the first first one. We're going to make sure you submit the list and we'll read

them. And just to make sure everyone's, you know, on the same, you know, you don't want to be turning up the knife with the gunfight side of scenario where you've created this most beautiful fluffy tactical marine army, like the Blood Angel army that you had the other day, where it's just got a tactical squad. It's got a rhino, it's got a beast, it's got one of everything. It looks beautiful, but synergetically wise, it's probably the worst army you

could possibly make. But you don't want that up against a Tyranid army that is just got nothing but homogans and it's going to charge you in the second turn and wipe you out. That's just not fun for anyone. Even this, even when we did the first tournament, someone submitted. This guy knows who he is and if you're listening to this, you know who you are and you got called out. He's one of my oldest friends and he's dude, what the fuck are you doing?

He submits a period list that's kept all these units under 100 points. I'm like I said, no, you're going to have to group all your little termagate and your homicate units. You got like 6 of each, group them together into 3 units of three and he goes no, I don't want to play it now. You should. You should have a stamp. You just got a stampless. Don't be AD bat. That's it, bang. And then we had another guy who wanted to run a what did he want

to do? He wanted to run a Imperial Guard army just full of fucking basilisks. I'm like, no one wants to play that dude, what are you fucking doing? All right, Don't be a fucking dead. And that's how it all came about. That's where don't be a Dick

comes from. It's pulling your head in from being a teenage kid playing on your floor with your mates and getting into arguments for 15 hours over throwing grenades onto a bridge all right, to being a grown adult playing man dollies on the weekend and enjoying your time while you're drinking beer. All right, so that's where D Bag comes from. You got any questions?

There's, you know, I don't know, I don't know how like, because every time I posted this up anywhere, I get so much grief from people saying you're not playing the rules properly, you're not doing this and you can't, you can't. What is it? You can't compass system like you've never compass system. You just got to play it as it is. That's a very 40K mentality.

You have to play the system as it is, and that's normally coming from the guy who just got the Army book that is so fucking good that it destroys everyone anyway. And that's their idea of a good time. And if that's their idea of a good time, open up Pornhub and destroy yourself like. Like. We don't need that here on the war gaming table. I came into a joint interaction. If you're not going to interact well with me, you can piss off. All right, so there you go.

That's D bag. That's wonderful. I love it. So we've got Old Wolf and a Fury. I'm glad you could jump into here. I'm glad you're here mate, that's great. And Vaughan, that was awesome to hear the rant from the Fury. And is there any points limit on D bag games I'm going to have missed? You, yeah, you can, you can start D bag from as low as 500

points. That's why it's such a good little system, because you you can start with a hero, you can start with a Sergeant. We used to play in GW with a Sergeant. All right, so a Sergeant of Marines or a hero, like whatever your champion is or champion level character, they can run your army. If you want to get fluff with me, boys, a Marine Sergeant is 100 years old and been in battle for since his entire inception.

God damn. He can run a battlefield by himself if he wanted to. What do you think they get their bloody field Marshalls from from sergeants. You have to go through all the ranks. So come on. Yeah, So you can run it from a champion level. So 500 points champion level, which you know for Marines might be, and then you, Oh no, you're going to have to break some rules. You take a 5 man squad of marines instead of A10 man squad of marines. OK, fucking mind blowing.

All right, Just be flexible. But the beauty of 2nd, and This is why I do love it when you get Dark Millennium and you go through it, when you go through the Battle Bible, there is points for everything because it comes from Rogue Trader and they haven't really ever changed the point system from Rogue Trader to 2nd Ed. All the points are built in so you can build out things very easily and very successfully. Like it's not that hard. All right, nice.

Yeah. Is there an official document where people can actually go and see like to root for the D bad rules at all? Yeah, yeah, I sent, I sent one to you. I did. I'm hopeless at this mate, sorry. Yeah, it does get one too. I did change it to seek and destroy, but after talking about this we just caught debug. From now on I think it's found sounds better, but now you understand my rant so. OK, that's why I didn't. I didn't realize what it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's the seek and destroy. Now, more astute players out there will find a lot of holes and bits and bobs in that that they were probably trying to exploit. So I'll just refer back to Don't be a Dick. It's an essence. It's an essence, it's a feeling. It's an emotion. It's, it's like when you're playing historicals, you just sort of, you got to feel it out

guys. Like it's just, you know, it's a way of being, you know, you want to, you want to play a game with, you're going to spend 2 hours with somebody, another grown man. Normally 99.9% of the time it's going to be a man. You want to enjoy that experience, and that's through the immersion of the hobby where you've both got nicely painted armies. You got your goblin green bases or that heretic that has his own painted bases. You got great terrain. You're all playing the same rules.

You're playing a small, tight skirmish game where 11 foul shot of a rocket launcher might take out your one leader. All right, And you want to make the game fun and come down to the last minute. So those mission cards that come with the game and come with Dark Millennium that are built into the Battle Bible, they're awesome if you're playing it with the right spirit. Actually, that can actually work. They I, I still use them in heresy. I still use them in modern 40K.

Like they're actually really well thought out and planned out missions. So go for it, have fun with it like. Can I make one request? Can I make one request? Please don't change the name mate, don't change it. Oh you cool. D Bag. D Bag's. Fine watch mate. The Seeking with Troy hasn't got the same flavor, hasn't got the same. Hasn't got the flavor. You want the flavor. You want the flavor. That's why I think I think

that's beautiful. I think that's just, you know, encaptures encapsulates everything you want to say. So tweak the rules to be a dig free zone. Yeah, we definitely. Want to see that? Pretty much it's you're not even tweaking the rules to be honest. You're just bending, bending army list creation because you're not. You're not actually breaking anything. Breaking it would be saying that I can now throw a grenade 15 times further than my normal strength. You know what I mean?

That's breaking the rules. You know, this isn't breaking the rules. This is changing army army composition. And because you're taking out the hero, you've just eliminated 90% of the problems of second edition. Because some heroes are just too much. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, there's no basically there's no special characters either. No name characters. You can I, I actually allow hero level special characters because they're actually a lot of flavor in them.

Yeah, I think so. Some of like, some of like for Blood Angels, like Kabulo, awesome little mid tier chaplain dude, freaking awesome miniature. Yeah, run that. Like when someone would submit a list to me and it had like it was a Blood Angel on me with a Kabulo theme to it. It's like, fuck yeah. I want to see that. That's awesome.

You know, like yeah, hero level characters go or nuts like as long as they've got so the definition of a hero level character normally under normal circumstances is A2 wounded character. Yeah, sorry man. SO2 wound character right so. If it's A2 wing wound character profile then it should be OK but D bad so As for zombie is fully with you about D bad way of life and cyclo is having the right attitude and having fun. Alcohol helps. It does help, but it actually really effects my gameplay.

I'm terrible when I'm drinking. Yeah, I'm average when I don't, and I'm terrible when I drink. I don't really care. I don't really, I mean, I just play to have fun, but I think I, I really appreciate what you've done with D Band. I'm I'm going to have to give it a look. We kind of have the same kind of thing when I play with the few people here that will play second edition with me. But it's kind of like a gentleman's agreement. Right we. Don't even write it down.

We it's just like, OK, we're not taking Vortex grenades, you know, we're not taking James R we're not, we're not doing that. It's just an unspoken rule because, and I think that's kind of a unspoken rule amongst all war games, to be honest with you. Like I don't think, you know, war gaming is especially when you get into like science fiction war gaming and stuff, it's not going to be balanced.

I don't care what you do, you know, if it, if it is balanced, it's not going to be very fun or flavorful, you know? Exactly. And one of the great things about second edition, one of the things I love about it is the flavour. It has so much flavour. It's just using and dripping with flavour and narrative and

it's just fun to play. And it's definitely not the like I explained this to everybody up from like, look, this is not this is not like if if you're coming to this like a competitive atmosphere, which you can play tournaments, you know, whatever, you can definitely do that. But this is not the game for you, OK? Like this is, you know, you, you need to approach this in the right spirit, which I think is the right spirit for all war gaming. You just need to approach it for

fun. And yeah, don't be a Dick, right? I remember when we, when I first got back into 40K, we, we were pulling out all the stops, right? We had vortex aids and like special characters and stuff. And it didn't take us but like one or two games to be like, all right, we need to like, not do that. Anymore so. Yeah, we're just going to, we're just going to tell them this shit down. Yeah, I, I won't lie, every once in a while it's like, all right, let's pull out all the stops

this time. And that could be fun, dude. You know, it could be a lot of fun to like, be like, all right, we're doing, we're doing it all. We're doing vortex grenades. We're pulling out special characters, and we're just going to lay it down and have a good time. And and I said this to my friend Jack the other day, and we were playing a game of second edition. I was playing my Harlequins and I basically tabled him. Yeah, yeah. But you know what?

I was just like, I was like, it's a good thing, It's a good thing we're friends, that having a good time. He's like, yeah, man, this is a blast. You know it. It didn't matter. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But we're just having a good time. It's great. Please give me some more. Well, we're just having a good time and that's what it's all about. And just what you know, it's it's it's definitely and it was designed.

If you ask Andy Chambers, if you ask RIP Priestly, if you ask all those guys, they'll tell you, hey, we designed the game to be fun, you know, in the rules, break the rules, do what you want. We do all the time, you know, So it I, I, I really, I'm right there with you, Kent, as far as like people are like, oh, you can't, you know, the game was made to play the no, it's dude, it's wild and wacky and unbalanced and it does it, it doesn't.

Yeah, there is like, no, there's no fucking balance here. There's there's a lot of contradictions in the rules. There's all kinds of crazy shit going on. Just have fun and do what you want, man. That's that's what it's designed to do if you want to get real with it, you know. One of the reasons the D bad was I did want to hold tournaments. And so I ran, I missed it. I, I sort of skipped him. An introduction.

I set up a, a gaming club here in my hometown Newcastle called Newcastle Legions. And in that there's a lot of old players that I used to play with in the game's workshop days. And so, and then with Daz, who was a very high level second at 40K player, we wanted to grab some of those people and bring him back into the game. But at the same time, he wanted to bring that feeling back of D bad. And so I've run, I think I've run three, maybe four of these

tournaments. I do them every second year because you play it too much and you, you know, it is what it is. We're all time poor. And I have people coming all from everywhere to play this. And then when you actually play the games, they go for less than two hours. They're so strategically good. I, I, I cannot stress you enough, if both players come in with the right attitude, with

the right armies. So the armies that I've played in D Bad has been my space walls, my chaos marines and my jeans to the cult, my space marines. They are typical say give you an idea typical D bad space Marine army will have. So there's there's certain heroes that will always be a Mustang, right? So, for example, in a space Marine army, it'll either be a second, a second level librarian because you just need that

librarian power. It will either that or a hero with a jump pack or a chaplain with a jump pack because you need to get across the field and just bash something. You'll have typically a squad of marines with a rhino so you can get them across the field. For a lot of the missions you'll have fire support, so you'll either take a tank or you'll take a land speeder. I've always preferred land speeders over everything else because you've got a really good

fire base that can move quickly. And I've always preferred a tank over a devastated squad because once you get the land speed and the tank together, you got yourself a good mix and a dreadnought. And this is the sort of army that you're looking at. Like it's a very basic sort of themed army, but it can do the damage if it's used right. And then my Chaos Marines look completely different. So I'd have a second level sorcerer, of course, who's summoning. I paid for demonets to bring up

demonets. I've got a dreadnought coming through the middle. I've got noise marines that are just, you know, playing down some smack down. I've got a Rhino in there, and if anyone's ever seen my Rhino, that's got the Bluetooth speaker built into it so I can play death metal as I roll it through. All right, So you're just going to have, you know, a bit of fun with it. And then the army, yeah, I did the best. And The funny thing with that Chaos Marine army is I played. He'll come to me.

I played this guy's elder army, and for the first three turns, I was just rolling him. I was just taking over everything. Everything was going great. And then the battery, my Bluetooth died, and then the elder just destroyed me. So the entire time of just popping this music out going yeah, come on, he's just a nerd, and then burn. Oh shit, kill the. Music. Why don't you kill the music?

Steve Quinn, That's Queenie Queenie's army the next the next the next year I took Jean, still a cult and we he had his Ork army. He's got a beautiful second at Ork army and we had one of the most crazy games of just Orks just pumping me with a long range shooting and me trying to do the biggest outflank with Jean Seals you've ever seen, going up over buildings, coming around, trying to get into within the four turn sort of limit that you have for the

missions. So I think going back through my head like the people who won the tournaments. So when you submit, so it comes down to also how you're doing it. I think we actually had a a rating system as well. So you get points for your fully painted army and you get points for the composition of your army and those points would add to your battle total. So every game you'd add that to your battle total.

So if you took a really soft army, you'd get full points, full comp points, and then that would add to your total if you took a mid tier. So to give you an example, my genius of the cult would definitely be a mid tier to a high tier sort of army. Just the way I built it, because I was being a bit of a cheesy cunt and I wanted to actually be annoying. I did take you've always got to take soft options, right? I didn't take 40 gene stills, for example. I took 10.

All right, you know what I mean? So that would have got comped a bit harder. So it would have made it only got 2 out of five points where someone like gives Queenie's orcs would have got full five because it was the most beautiful one of every clan sort of army that had a bit of everything going on in it and it was really awesome.

So you do that as well and then you have like this one guy took a guard army and you know, you have commissar last stands like standing on top of a bloody hill just beating things off and he's only got a sword and a lad's pistol, You know what I mean? Like he's got nothing else, but he's still surviving and he's, you know, doing what he's got to do to get the job done and

rallying the troops. And you get those hidden gem moments that we all love talking about in these games all the time because there's nothing super duper happening that's outrageous. To give you an idea, like with the so I'm ranting a bit, I never knew how good grenades were for the entire lifespan of second edition until I played Daz's Harlequins who did the full blinds the you know, the blind blanket. So for those who don't know, all

Harlequins get blind grenades. Blind grenades, you can't see through them. And what they would do is they throw out to get two or three troops of Harlequins is what, five guys in a troop, 3 to 5, three to seven in a troop or something ridiculous like that. It's minimal 10, Minimal 10, isn't it? Yeah. It's minimal, 10 per troop, yeah, but I don't think. Yeah. So then you you look at 10 blind grenades that are just, it's like a massive line of no see

through. But then you move your Harlequins into the middle of them and then you charge out the next turn, right? That tactic had been destroying me for years until I actually read the rules. It's a funny thing when you read rules. So I just roll up my 10 tactical marines who are about to get murdered by the troop of Harlequins and just threw 10 frag grenades into the blind spot. Oh. Yeah, shit happens. You can frag grenades actually. Yes you can actually.

OK. I think, I think this came up with Paul as well, like picking a point on the on the spot, on the ground and throwing something at it. Yeah, you don't have to have line of sight. It's just random. It just scatters. It just scatters automatically. The thing is, it's a 2 inch frag template. Harlequins only have a toughness of 3A, Fragrant is only toughness 3. So I've got 10 frag grenades going through this entire trip that's been clumped up ready to charge me.

I take out 70% of them. I'm like, where's this been all my life? This is the greatest thing I've ever done are. You being a Dick. No, I wasn't being the Dick when a Pelican player was being the Dick. I was just fighting a way around. That's a joyous second edition. Like there's, there's things that happened that, you know, I've been playing this thing for so long that I didn't even think that was a thing that I could do. And then you blind it and you're like, Oh my God, my nick was

blowing. It's a game that keeps on giving. Your your opponent Cody better not hear this mate, because he's got the secret I. Mean in defense of the Harlequins, because I am a Harlequin. Player, you got no defense for that. Yeah, yeah, they they are. You have. So you, you, they are squishy. You have to know what. You're doing? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have to know what you're doing with them. And I discovered the blind grenade thing. Like it took me a few games to discover that.

I was like, oh, this is the way they survive. Yeah, yeah. And but I don't go I I do use them but I don't go crazy with it like. Under D badly Harlequins are not too bad because the biggest character they can get is a Harlequin troop commander like a so that's the biggest guy they can get. And I think they can get a psycho level 2 as well. A warlock I think it is. And they're not too bad.

Like they're definitely squishy. They they're tactically still pretty cool, but you they do find themselves, yeah, there's no player has a fan still for Eldar. Not there's not. They're just they're ridiculous. But to give you an idea, like it comes down to the player. So in one of those D bad tournaments, I played an Eldar guy who had all the tricks. I think he he scored a very low sort of score for his army composition, but he didn't know how to use warp spiders properly.

Right. And warp spiders take 10 games before you get the hang of them. They're a horrible unit. Like on the on the hands of a very good player, but somebody who doesn't really know how to use them properly. Like they just die like anything else. I think he left them out in the wrong spot and I just rolled up my rhino full of cultists that had flamers and just flamed them all. They all died, you know what I mean? So yeah, Elda under D bad Eldar actually a really fun army to play.

Very very, very tactical, very very unique because you can, you know, 1 elder army is the same. I've seen people run them as just nothing but guardians. I've seen people run them as pirates, I've seen them run as just one aspect cult. I've seen them, you know all the theme stuff you could possibly think of you can do. Because your hero in that level would be a an ex arc. He would be the general of your army would be an ex arc or a warlock.

Now, on a debate, you can have more than two characters or more than one character, but one of them has to be a general for the rules for the missions. Cool. All right. OK. I think we've covered everything about the D bad system, so people who are interested, I'll have to put a link somewhere for you guys to access that D bad rule system. Is it on a website or anything like that at all mate?

Is it on the? No, I'll just, I'll, I'll send you the document and then you can post it up on the Crown of Command and people can just download it from there and let's just drive some traffic to you. Yeah, I'll post this video up on the why I'm a second edition Facebook group. Yeah, hopefully I can upload it in. I can upload that file if it's not in there already into their file section. And that way you could easy.

It's an easy way to access. That I have promoted on there before but I cop so much backlash from it. I just gave up on it. But I think through communication and see my rants of where it comes because it has. People have to understand it comes from a place of love and experience. Of course, like the nuance of Facebook doesn't Like if you write into Facebook. I've been playing since like 92.

Dude, you seem like such a twat. All right, so and I I yeah, I'm allowed to compact because I played it heaps. All right, shut up. Yeah, OK man, just a moment. OK, so just just I'm going to shout out to Stu from sustained fire event. It was held in Brisbane last year. Yeah, I was wanting to get up there, but I couldn't do it. Yeah. So it is still alive and kicking in Australia, which is great to see. And I know it's, you know, it's played in various parts of the world.

Even my good friend Jimmy from the old Olives, he's playing it in 15 mil. Yeah, yeah, like printed 250 mil. Yeah, 100%. Really cool looks really looks really cute, like the whole like the really small battlefields. He even made the little tiny little cactus plants. That's great. I mean that's you know, you can enjoy second edition in any way form that you want to play it. There's lots of resources out there. So, you know, don't feel restricted or restrained to think that.

Oh well, it's you know, it's past that point. I'll never get back into it. You can get back into it if you really want to. So, but look, guys, we've we've the streams are almost an hour and a half. I've got to feed my boy and take him to his friend's house so he can play Nintendo Switch to his heart's heart's desire. So I look to like to thank both of you, especially Kent Fury.

All are from Australia mate to come on to talk all about D bad with us and your love of second edition and your your passion for it and Cody as well mate. All the way over in Tennessee my friend. Yeah, no, it was good meeting Kim, by the way. Nice. Meeting you too. And lastly. When I get when I get to Japan again, I'll make sure we can have a battle report of D bad just to give it a bit of flow

bit. Of feeling and like I said, mate, your wife, your wife and kids, if they come, they're more than welcome up here. OK, so. No, I'm going to bitch them. I'm coming. Back all right thanks too much but finally to all the people all the great people in our chat here at the moment who's been commenting sci-fi Astro zombie Vol Vol sorry, not Vaughan Vol old wall fanatics who also we have here.

I think that was the main group of people that come to say hello stranglers and hobbies stranglers yeah stranglers homework last one, but thanks everybody for tuning in to check us out live if you're looking at this the the the you know the replay of it. Hope you enjoy the conversation the guys have brought today about second edition 40K and until next guy next. Next time guys, take care of yourselves, enjoy your weekend, and we'll catch you again next time.