OK, everybody, welcome back to the Credit Command Podcast and today I've got two very special guests. We've got a duo, in fact, from the Build Paint and Play Live stream channel on YouTube that I've been a participant on just recently talking to the guys about hobby, painting, Games Workshop, everything. They're both, I believe X Games Workshop members or staff members from the past.
So of course we've got Dave Taylor and Dave Taylor is was a previous guest on the podcast before, but Jake's a new member coming on for the very first time. But I really wanted to introduce you both to both of these great gentlemen in the hobby and to to learn about their story and why they they began this crusade for people to build, paint and play with their miniatures on the table. So both of you guys welcome and good evening to you both.
Oh yeah. Thanks very much for having us, Josh. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much. My pleasure. So of course, Dave's been on the podcast before, so we know a little bit about Dave's previous experiences with how he got into the hobby and that kind of thing, and his journey through Games Workshop and where that took him. So for Jake, mate, tell us about yourself. Like, where you're from and you know, how did you get into this weird, wonderful hobby of ours? Sure.
I'm sure your listeners are going to be like, who is this guy? Why is he on the show? So I like a lot of us. I I got into like you know, mini war gaming and and miniature painting when I was a lot younger. I think I was in pretty sure I was in grade school. I think it all started with like Dungeons and Dragons and you know painting the old metal, white metal Ralph Partha Minis and stuff like that.
And then my first, my first exposure to Games Workshop was I went to a Dungeons and Dragons. Like, I don't want us to call it a convention because it was like really tiny but basically was like a proto convention and it was a lot of like gaming related stuff. And there was a guy who had a little booth set up and they had the old RTB Rogue Trader box of Space Marines. And so I picked it up and 12 year old Jake was like, oh this is so cool, what is this?
And the guy started talking to me and my ADHD kicked in and I zoned out while he was talking. And in my brain I was like, look at these Crimson fists fighting all these guys. Like I didn't know they were Crimson Fists, but like I was like look at all these guys. Like this looks super cool. So I bought them and I bought I think a White Dwarf and took it home and you know went went nuts.
And this is back when White Dwarf had like advertisers for like Dungeons and Dragons and like other games like Dark Future and all that sort of stuff and just kind of fell in love with it. And I built the models, I thought, and and I had built model kits like World War 2 planes and the USS Enterprise and stuff like that. But I had never built minis to paint, if that makes sense.
I was like, this is weird. It's like this cool mash up of two things that I like, painting minis and building models, but it's the same thing. So I painted them up and then couple years went by and my cousin came over and he was like he saw like I had a bunch of different ones that I had painted and he was like oh, you play this game. And I was like there's a game like I thought it was just like D&D. So I got sucked into it again.
And then I think I was in college when I started playing pretty regularly. I think it was during 3rd edition 40 Ki Believe. And then while I was in college, I got hired by Games Workshop and I was working part time. And then when I graduated they snapped me up and gave me a store. And then I worked for the company for like 6 years and within probably 6 months I got promoted to running the bunker store. It's one of the big ones here in the States.
At one point we had four. There was one in Boston, which was the one that I ran. There was one in Chicago. There was one in Glen Burnie, MD, which is where HQ was, and then there was one on the West Coast, I think. Was it LA or Seattle? LA. OK. But so I was running the Boston store, so I got flown down to Baltimore all the time.
And that's How I Met Dave. I met Dave, I I want to say I met Dave in like 2003 or 2004. So I mean I've known Dave for like 20 years now and he, I mean Dave, you know Dave is Dave is super charming and like very welcoming. It was was just great. It was super nice to talk to him and and at and at that point there was AUS edition of the of White Dwarf which I think there were several different like
national editions. But so Dave and our buddy John, our buddy John Shaffer who's on the four Warlords with us and a couple of other guys, they were all like the core of the White Dwarf US staff. So it was really cool. Like, it was definitely a nerd moment for me, being like, oh, that's Dave Taylor. But it was, it was really cool and now I'm just kind of riding his coattails. I'm Robin to his Batman as we get to do this, so. That's that's. Awesome.
You stand, the two of us next to each other. In no world am I the hero and. He's he he in in real life I'm I'm much taller than Dave but in in in legendary stature Dave is Dave is far grander. But balance is now. Right. Yeah, yeah. It all comes out in the wash. But yeah, after work with GW for years, I I I worked at a couple different companies. I was a beta tester at Fantasy Flight. I did some of their Star Wars RPG stuff, which was fun. And then I decided to just open my own store.
My buddy Adam and I was another XGW. We're we're everywhere. XGW guys are everywhere. The world. The gaming industry is lousy with us. But so we opened my own store and and Dave and I have just kind of kept in touch ever since. And I want to say it was like coming out of the pandemic we had, we had talked about, like, I was thinking about maybe doing like a show about like lore, like a 40K lore stories and going into like Horace, Heresy and Necromunda and all that stuff.
And Dave was like, oh, I kind of want to do like more hobby stuff because he had been on another show that was that was good. But they, the wheels had kind of fallen off. Like some of the people behind it weren't really just kind of getting it going the way that they should have. So we were like, yeah, let's just, you know, kind of get some chocolate on your peanut butter, get some peanut butter on my chocolate. Let's just Reese's pieces this.
And you know, we turned into into Dave and I doing build, pay, play, which we went into being like if this doesn't work and it's just Dave and I talking to each other for an hour and a half every week, sounds great, like that's fine. That is literally how we got anything. So. Yeah. Jake, I've got a new job for you, mate. You're not not just a hockey goalkeeper. I think I'm going to use your voice for a Blood Bowl battle
reports, mate. I think you'll be perfect for it, 'cause you can just ramble on so quickly. I can't do it. And you got the perfect accent for it, mate. You got the perfect everything, The perfect Blood Bowl, you know, presenter, you know. I'm happy to do that. I was a radio DJ for a bit, so. I oh, there you go, there you go. You got you got a radio voice, mate, Honestly. Yeah. My my wife says they sound like, My wife says they sound like Will Arnett.
And I was like, I don't really hear that, but I mean, it's your voice sounds different to yourself, so. Yeah, true. Yeah, that's good. Now that you've said that, it's totally true. She's. That great. Correct. I can do, I can do the all the GMC ads in Lego Batman and all that good stuff I would love to make. I would love to make some Will Arnett money. That would be great.
Yeah, that is. So you you you talked about you know starting up your own store now I can imagine that would be pretty a pretty courageous courageous step like financially and and that kind of thing like what what sort of got you over the line What what sort of like you talked about your friend there for a moment there before you said you you sort of started your store but what was the real thing that did you, you know you you were always working the game industry at some in some
capacity so why did you open the store, like what was your incentive behind that? I think part of it was I had I I mean, I spent a lot of my time in, like corporate in the corporate world. You know, I've over 2 1/2 decades working for different Fortune 500 companies. And I had where I had left the corporate world and was working in the nonprofit sector, which I thought would be a nice change of pace and it was nightmarish. Everything in the in the, at least for the nonprofit I worked for.
They're a great nonprofit, and they have a great mission. But everything there moves at the speed of smell, so it just crawls along and nobody's really sure what's happening. And there there's just so much waste, like just wasting time and wasting money and wasting resources. And it it's crazy to me 'cause I'm like you're a non profit, like you don't have that sort of margin to to have that. But a a big part of it also came from my love of the hobby. Like again, I've I've played forever.
Like I know we're not doing this like we can see each other, but the folks at home are just listening to us, like you guys behind me. It's just inundated with like nerd stuff. I have like a ton of Black Library books and I have Star Wars memorabilia and a huge comic collection and my Warhammer collection is insane. But I had had a really bad experience at a store. And I'm not gonna say what store, but I I walked into a store and this is, I mean, this is gonna be probably seven or
eight years ago at this time. And I was looking, and this is how it's gonna date me. I was looking for a box of original submarines and a pot of Chaos black. And I walked in and the kid at the counter didn't even look up. He was like playing with his phone or looking at Yu-gi-oh cards or something. And I walked in and it was fine. I mean, I don't need any help. I know where I'm going. Well, you know, I, but I I've worked in customer service for
so long. Like, you always want to welcome people and be like, hey, how's it going? Like you need any help? No. OK, cool. Like, let me know if you got any questions. So I walked in and I go downstairs and I'm looking around and I don't see it on the shelf. And they have the old GW paint rack, which has the box on top where you could put extras like Overstock. And I'm tall enough to see that. So I'm looking through there and I'm like, Nope, it's not here.
So I go upstairs and I'm waiting in front of the counter and the kids, like, still get his head down, not looking at me. And I clear my throat and he looks up and he's like, oh, hey, so I said, hey, I'm looking for a box of submarines and a pot of paint. And he's like, oh, yeah, I I guess it's downstairs. And I was like, no, I know where it is. I'm like, I went and I looked, You don't have it. Do you guys have, like, backroom or overstock or anything? And he's like, oh, I don't, I
don't really know. Like, I don't, I don't play that that. I don't play that. And I was like, so is there somebody that can help me with this? Oh, I'm the only one here. Do you guys have a backroom? No. All of our product is out. So at this point, I'm kind of, like, waiting for this kid to offer something. So I go, when is the, do you have anybody on staff that's like a Warhammer guy? Like, I can come in and talk to you and he's like, oh, I don't really know.
And I inside my brain, I was like, screaming. I wanted to be like, how did you get this job? Why are you here? What? Who is the owner that you are stealing money from? To be here like, this is atrocious. So I leave. I was just like, I've had it. So I went back. Months later, months, months later, I went back and I was looking for a role-playing book. Different kid, different store, identical experience. Like, no attempt at help? No.
Like, like if it's me, like if you and Dave come in and you're looking for some, I would be like, you know what, I don't have that. But let me take down your information and I'll, I'll have somebody reach back out to you. Or let me write down what you want and I'll make sure my boss orders it and I'll call you when it comes in. Or give me your phone number and I'll have somebody who knows how to do their job call you like and zero attempt at helping me. No, no attempt at customer service.
So couple months go by and it's the summertime. And I have a bunch of guys over the house, including Adam, who, you know, I I mentioned before and we're kind of sitting around and we're all kind of whinging like we all do about our hobby. Like, you know what I mean? Like part of the hobby is whinging about the hobby. So somebody said something like, oh, I'm trying to build, I don't know what he was working on.
I think he was, oh, he was working on Armageddon, Steel Legion. And he was like, I can't find any more Steel Legion guys. And I was like, yeah, I'm like, I'm sure we can find some somewhere. We'll just have to look around. And then, you know, Adam was like, hey, didn't you have a weird experience a couple weeks ago? And I was like, yeah, I was looking for like a salt rings and and a pot of black paint. Like, nothing crazy. It's like I was trying to find
something, you know, untoward. It was pretty basic. So we were all kind of sitting around and and I was like, why can't somebody open a store where the people know what they're doing and they carry everything and the staff is knowledgeable and it's a fun place to go and hang out and there's room to play. And people just want to like,
hang out and have fun. And our buddy Fred went, why don't you guys just open a store and we're like, oh, that's it was like the light bulb went off and I was like, all right, we could just do that. So Adam has experience running a private, a private store out in the West Coast. And both he and I have worked for GW for years like I'd worked for, I think I worked for them for like 5 or six years. Adam was there for, I want to say like 11.
And then we both went back a couple like probably 8 years ago at this point and they wanted us to come back and run stores. And then I was like, look, I'll I'll hope you guys, I'll be a part timer. Like that's fine. I love the discount. But like I can't do this. Like I'm, I'm married and have you know, I, I, I can't live on AGW salary. That's just not going to happen. And then we just opened the store and we were really lucky.
We had a couple of people that were really excited about it and we had some investors step up by the way, before that happens, trying to explain what a hobby store is to investors is insane. It it's like explaining math to a horse. But so we. So we explained it to this one guy and he was like, so I don't understand. So why do you guys have tables? And I was like, so people can come in and play and he's like, do you charge to use your
tables? And I said no. And he's like, then how do you make money? And I was like, because we sell everything. So we sell model kits and board games and paints and D&D stuff and card games and you know, whatever. So he's like, I don't understand. So finally I had to be like, OK, how can I explain this to, you know, somebody who is outside our, like, like, this is a nergling who has come from the warp. But I'm trying to explain how toothbrushes work. And I was like, how do I do that?
So I said, are you familiar with the Starbucks model versus like a bowling alley? And he was like, sort of. And I said, so when you go to a bowling alley, you have to pay to rent the shoes and then you pay to use the lanes and then they let you use the balls that are there. Or you can bring your own. I was like, but you're paying to use the lane. And he was like, right, I said, where is it? Starbucks.
As long as you buy a drink and you're a quote, UN quote customer, you can use the Wi-Fi. You can hang out at the tables. Like, that's our business model. Like we sell the stuff, You can use our tables as long as you bought the stuff here. And he was like, oh, OK, but no, we got really lucky. It was, it was definitely like nerve racking to think about the amount of money that we needed up front to start a store. And it was a it was a chunk of change. It was north of 1/4 of $1,000,000.
So we basically, I'd written up a whole business plan and you know, built into that was first lesson, security for rent, a year's worth of rent up front in the in the bank in case we didn't make any money. Like, I padded our numbers pretty well. But I think a lot of the people that invested like that 'cause it showed that we had thought it through. I made sure that our salary for Adam and I was built into that number. And some guy got really mad. One guy was like, I'm not going
to fund you. And I was like, why he goes, well, 'cause you and you and your guys are gonna pay yourself out of the money. And I was like, right? And that's so we're not worried about our next paycheck. And instead of being here focused on the job, I'm working a second part time job at like McDonald's or something to try to make ends meet. Like we need to be focused on the business. So we need to be here at the business. But it was fun.
Like, I mean this this summer or sorry, in March, in March, it'll be six years. Wow mate, that's great. Fantastic. We'll be going into our 7th year so. That's amazing. Fantastic, mate. Yeah, because I've always wondered how, how like retailers can survive not just through the pandemic or anything like that, but just just just day-to-day
kind of business. I mean, they've got to have something there that allures people in there, either existing gamers or new people, you know, walking past your store and you want to grab them in there and try to, you know, sell them this concept of war gaming and that kind of thing. But it's really, really encouraging to hear that you yourself, on this almost seven-year journey, have made it mate so, even through a pandemic, of all things. Yeah, that was a little dodgy. I'm not gonna lie.
It was a little dicey for a couple of months, but. Absolutely, mate. Yeah, that's amazing. Now of course, Dave is here too, yeah. Sorry, I've been. I've been Bulgarian the Mic. No, no, no, Not at all, mate. Not at all. No, no, not at all. All good, all good. Because, yeah, I obviously brought you both, both in at the same time. So you know, because you both are good friends and you know each other very well. And of course you do this build, paint, play, live stream
together. I actually did. And you did mention about Dave having started something else on a live stream, and I actually watched that for a little bit, but I can't remember what it was. But it was like a group of people painting miniatures or something and chatting. What was that? Sorry, Dave, what was that again? Painting happy little Minis, right? It was basically started by a mutual friend of Jake and mine, Rick Agny, when he worked for Alliance Game Distributors.
Yeah. So he was responsible for sort of video media for Alliance and sorry, Alliance and Diamond Comics Distributors as well, which is one of the biggest comic distributors in the US And basically he put together a number of shows that would focus on or promote products that Alliance carried. So if Alliance carried Vallejo, we'd use Vallejo Paints. We'd use the Army Painter as well because that were carried by Alliance. We'd paint miniatures that were carried by Alliance, that kind
of thing. So it was always like, oh, what are you working on? What are you painting there? We're painting this. We're painting like at one point we're painting Star Wars Legion, which at the time was carried by Alliance. We're like, yeah, you can just get to your local store to give their Alliance Rep a call and you can get this product in your local store.
It was that kind of sort of angle for it that we were doing at the height we were doing 2 shows a week, two sort of hour Long live streams on Tuesday and Thursday and it kind of progressed for a while. Then of course pandemic hit. We had a couple of changes then we worked out that we could do some painting from home. So I ended up sitting in a seat that I'm in now and Tuesdays and Thursdays we do the live stream.
Yeah, to the point where late in 2021 I was in Australia for a few weeks and we did a live stream. While I was there. I had to wake up sort of extra early and was able to do well. Basically record the the same live stream. Yeah, yeah. So it was pretty pretty amazing to be able to do that. But we got to a point where our producer moved on to another career and my Co host left to become a a mum and they didn't
really. Things were sort of a little bit odd at Alliance at the time and they kind of we were waiting to hear if there was going to be a sort of revamp of the show. But at that time, Jake was like, yeah, I'm thinking maybe you're doing a live stream. I was doing a podcast and I was like, well, I have all this extra time. That's wonderful. Let's talk about it.
So yeah. And then of course, we've just been, a lot of it's been messing around and previously having a producer, having a team of people who created, sorry, painting, having all minis, it was like all I had to do was show up and and paint and talk. And then I was like, OK, well, now I have to work out how to do all this thing, these things. And do we use Stream Yard? Do we use OB? Yes. Do we use something else?
How do we get people to call in? And it's gone through several iterations of the we're on our fourth season now, and through several iterations since the start. Wonderful guys. That's good. Yeah, because I thought, I think I just found you by chance. I think just on my, on my YouTube feed, I just popped and I saw your face and I thought, oh, you're doing something new. OK, I'll go and check it out. So that's how I sort of hopped
onto that. And as I'm sitting here painting through the day because your, your show starts at about 10:00 AM here. No, 9 AMI, think 9:00 AM here in Japan. So it's the perfect time. So I, you know, take my son to school, come back, you know, put on the brew, come and sit here and start work and then watch you guys talk about various different things in the hobby,
in your community. And then bring on some kind of special guest and have like a, you know a round table kind of thing where each each week you have a a different person on which is always interesting to see what what's happening. I must say that like a lot of the terminology used in 40K now there's a whole new vocabulary. I don't understand any of it now like things you, you, you know, you and Jake are talking about, you know, your loadouts on your dreadnoughts and your your
vehicles and stuff like that. I don't know what it is like I've I've been so out of touch. But it's been quite a learning experience, like listening to you guys talking about the modern stuff. Because yeah, I do feel out of touch with that sort of stuff now. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think it's changed that much. I mean, I mean it's it's different from Rogue Trader for sure. I'm. The line guy from Second edition, mate. That's it.
But. But even in like in in second and third edition, you could change the way a a dreadnought was armed. They just they just changed the name. Like a mortise pattern. Dreadnought had a last gun and a missile launcher and a Furiosa. Dreadnought had two close combat claws and a regular Dreadnought had a claw and any one of like 5 weapons it could have. AI think it'd have what, like a last cannon and assault cannon? Twin heavy bolters melting a multi melter.
It's the same thing now it's just instead of making it different types of Dreadnoughts, it's just like, hey, you have a Dreadnought how do you want it Armed. And they they've they've brought it back even with the the primary stuff like Dave was showing last week. So his brutalist Dreadnought is the one with two close combat claws and his Ballistas Dreadnought is the old mortise pattern so it has a rocket launcher and last cannons.
So it's all the same. They just keep changing the names because of like the you know, they just want to own all the IPS. So now instead of being. I think I've done it. Yeah. No, that's fair enough. That's fair enough. You'd be fine. You're a strong swimmer. You you can handle the current, you'll be good. Yeah, this is a multi melter, not a multi melter. Totally fine. The unpronounceables.
Yeah, not a gravis melt melt. Again it's no, I would I would suggest like Jacob, I think it's important to to say that like because you've been in 40K all through those additions. Yeah, that's why. It's kind of like the the frog in the the pot of water. It's like you're at the point where you haven't noticed that temperature increase, but it just jumps in. Oh my God, I'm boiling.
Cold feet, mate, Cold feet. But look guys, we're going to go for a quick ad break now and when we come back we can talk about more about the channel and the build, paint, play philosophy and maybe about the guests you brought on or the projects you're working on and about the community itself. So we'll be back in just a moment.
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Well, let's let's talk about the streams because I want to the the reason, another reason why I wanted to bring you on is to navigate people to your stream because I I noticed that you know the quality stream, the the conversation quality was really good and it's really interesting and you know it's great to have all these other people in these third party people coming in to talk about their products or you know things that they do.
I know you guys have an association with the army Painter and their products as they're a sponsor for your show. And you talk about Jake's store and you know Jake talks about which is really interesting to me because like you know, the insurance and outs of, you know, running a retail store and the hurdles that go with that and that kind of thing and then you bring on. So I'm very interesting about, you know, something they're doing.
So it might be the tale of four, is it the four warlords you do. So it's your sort of a mini painting challenge you have internally with yourselves and a couple other guys in the States or it could be someone from a company talking about the products they produce and promote and that kind of thing. So you have a, you have a sort of a shared interest in promoting other people's products and that kind of thing
in the hobby, which is great. So yeah, I wanted people, I wanted to direct people to your live stream and we were talking
off air before that. It will soon be available as a podcast, which would be great because I think a podcast is a really good way to to consume media these days as people commute from work and and home and that kind of thing, or as they do their hobby, but also to check out your live stream, like it, subscribe and hopefully catch along if they're in the US. There's no reason why you can't do that on a what's that Tuesday evening for you guys, isn't it?
Yeah, Yep. Yep. Which is, is that, is that what, Wednesday morning for you guys or is it Monday morning? It's Wednesday morning for me because I live in your future, my friend. I'm in a DeLorean, so I live in. The. Future. So I'm it's basically here, it's, it's 9:00 AM here when it starts, it's your 8:00 PM or 7:00 PM. 7:00 PM. 7:00 PM there and the show is you're saying you you you go for about two hours.
Yeah. And. Initially, initially we said we're, yeah, we'll go for like an hour or so. And then we found we were doing like a 3 1/2 and then I was like we'll go for an hour and a half or so and now we're doing 2 hours, like pushing two hours. It's probably probably an hour 45. Hour 50 is kind of standard. It's it's mostly my fault. Like when we have guests on like, I tend to tangent pretty hard and we'll go down a rabbit hole. I mean, Dave does it too from time to time, if it's the right
thing. Yeah. Like if it's like the quality and consistency of a specific white paint, like Dave can talk for hours about that like his favorite brand of white paint or or whatever color we're talking about. But no it's it's a lot of it depends on the guests and you know what we're talking about and you know how, how, how off the rails that goes.
And and we have in addition to answering questions that have been posed on our Facebook during the week, we also have people that will live chat during the during the show. So a lot of times we'll, you know we'll we'll use questions from them or or the guest will answer questions and that can, you know, that can kind of you know, mess up our quote UN quote
timeline. But it's kind of the beauty of our show is like we're the whole reason that Dave and I do it live is it was just less work than trying to record it and stuff And it it that's the beauty of doing it live, right. I mean if it goes long, it goes long, if it's shorter, it's shorter. It's, it doesn't really, it doesn't really matter. No, no one's going to get
shortchanged. I mean, like the average show is between like, like Dave said, an hour and a half to an hour and 45. But yeah, we do have a couple longer. Ones. Yeah, no, that's good. So now Dave, like you have you have a Facebook group as well which you then share during your streams. They're amazing work. Hey, there's a lot of great painters in your in your community on Facebook. Yeah, we have a yeah, we have a
Facebook group. The Build Paint Play community is the name of the Facebook page. So nice and straightforward, but yeah, we've got a lot of lot of people there who are very avid hobbyists who are working on stuff every every week. We have some folks who sort of pop in intermittently and share their work. We have a lot of people who share share stuff that is very unique I guess within the group ideas that we haven't seen before, paint styles or paint approaches to painting.
We have a guy at the moment, Steven Ryder, who is posting a lot of classic miniatures, very, very old fantasy miniatures, so late 70s, early 80s, Grenadier Mini that are exciting to see is like they were into a few times where it's like, oh, oh, I remember that. That was like the first set of minis. Yeah, times. Oh my God, where did that come from? I've never seen that at all and it'd be like, well, nobody ever shipped it to Australia. So I never saw it at the time.
But yeah, it's I think one of the things you you mentioned before you asked about the sort of the philosophy behind build, paint, play. And one of the key things that we wanted to do was basically have a have a show where if we were presenting things in a positive light, we're looking for the the positive in as many things as we could.
Because there's certainly a lot of, I think unfortunately there are a lot of clicks going to people who are like, Oh my goodness, have you seen what they've done now Doomsday. Yeah, I I can't. I can't stand I. Can't stand it either, mate. I think that's. I think that's one of the reasons why Dave and I get along so well is like we we both are are pretty positive like Dave is Dave is very positive. I I try to be I tell my people I tell my friends all the time I am a hopeful pragmatist.
So but I I think it's. I think it's. I think it helps out a lot. You know we won't spend. There's plenty of stuff that we all don't like I'm sure. Yeah. But Dave and I try to not focus on that. Like that's not what the show's about. The show's about hey, what are you working on What do you think is fun What what's the new thing you're excited about or what's the new model you're painting or what's the new paint line you want to try.
And and I think that for a lot of people it's just kind of refreshing. I I can't stand the whole oh, I'm really upset about this thing. I'm not going to play sisters and guess why. And then you click and it's, you know, it's two nerds in a basement whinging about the new rule set and how they change the sculpt. And my rules are worse and there's no AP and I just that stuff drives me now. I can't handle that. Whereas we're we're two nerds in basements avoiding whinging about.
Exactly. Come on, the secondary. Price I'm OK. I'm safe. I must be elevated and beyond the basement. It all averages out it all out. Well, I wish I could be a basement dweller. Sounds fun. Sounds good, especially in the summer. It is definitely cooler in my basement in the summer. Yeah, but yeah, you're right. I mean, there's so much negativity out there, so much clickbait. And I hate those. Like, I shouldn't say hate, but I I don't look at them. I don't watch them because of
that particular reason. I think there's enough negativity in the world already. Why would you want to bring it into your hobby? You know what I mean? So I always are attracted to positive people, you know, whether it be talking about things that I'm interested in, interested in or not. It just elevates that experience of oh wow, they're really passionate about this.
And maybe it's not my cup of tea, but it's it's nice and refreshing to hear someone talking about it so positively and it sort of attracts like minded people. And and I think you know, you, you guys and what you do and the community you're building is, you know, you get followers and attract people who feel the same way. And we're all in the hobby for various different reasons.
Whether it's like me, you know, being this madman in Japan with stuff from the 1990s and, you know, trying to try to con people into playing games with me or it's, you know, you guys doing the modern stuff and being really excited about that.
You know? And you know, like I said, one of your guys in your groups doing something from, you know, way back in the 70s, collecting and and painting models from Grenadier and rail path or what have you, you know, we're all in there all in this together doing something that we feel really passionate about. So it's like, you know, just find something, find your niche and yeah, just get behind stuff that's really positive and motivating.
That's really what it is. At the end of the day, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think we're we're very lucky. We've got in our like in amongst our our regular viewers that we have like the live stream who are in The Who pop into the chat. We've got folks who are running paint takes and helping demo games at conventions. We've got folks who are salesman for places like Alliance. We've got folks who are, it's
very much it's their hobby. They're not commercially involved in the industry, but they've got a particular take on things. And it also it helps us, well, certainly certainly helps me realize that my experience or the things that I can experience, not what everybody else can experience. So I'm lucky. I've got a great sort of friends in Baltimore, number of gaming groups that I can participate in who are doing different stuff.
So I can't just. But there are people who watch us who are like, it's that it's that guy and two other guys in their small town in rural Canada that don't have that opportunity. And so it's looking for OK, how can we help you participate more in this hobby you love? Yeah, so our community. Is our community is small but
mighty. Like I think that we have a pretty good, I think we have a we have a really good cross section of folks like we've got like Dave was saying, there's there's a bunch of people who work in the industry like a bunch of them that are on. We've got some people that are really well known kind of like in the streaming community that are on there. We've got some guys that are like widely recognized professional painters that are
in there. But then you know we also have a bunch of guys who are just a bunch of friends of ours and some people who are just, I heard about this from a friend of a friend, Like people who are like we had a guy in a couple weeks ago. He's like, I've painted my first miniature, which is awesome. Like, I mean that's that's kind of like what we're trying to do. And it's like, like you said, we're all excited about the same things. We we all, if not exactly the same things.
We're all like in the same aisle in the grocery store kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, that that's been. That's been really, that's really fun. Because, you know, like we've got guys in our community who play a lot of historical gaming. We've got guys who play, you know, really obscure games we've never heard of. And you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, I know we're going to talk about the old world. When I was on there and I said to Dave, look, mate, I haven't read the books.
I don't know much about it. I don't think I'm the best person to talk about it really with you guys to give my analytical sort of, you know, deep dive into the rules and that kind of thing you probably get, you probably find someone better to talk about that with in your community. But even though the new old world is not really my, you know, slice of the the kind. Of thing I like that.
The new, old world. But you know, I'm really, I'm at the same time, I'm genuinely, genuinely excited that other people are like, yeah, this is great, now we're going to start playing Warhammer again and that kind of thing.
Even though they could have played Warhammer at any time, they could just pick up their old additions off the shelf and gave them a go. Or there's some, you know, there's some fan based stuff out there as well that's free to download and you can go go, you know Hammer and Toms with that. But it's great to see that this has brought up a new revival of
people. And hopefully, and this is the main thing, we hopefully get new people in, younger people, right, who want to experience something new that's not a computer game, it's not something digitally downloaded. It's something that's intrinsically a hobby that is community based. It's getting the table, having some snacks, you know, rolling some dice, having a laugh,
having a fun. It's a very sociable thing, you know, whether it be a board game, you know, tabletop, war game, just, you know, painting, miniatures, anything like that. Whether it's new, old, doesn't matter, you know, we're all trying to build a, you know, for my son and for, you know, Dave's kids or your kids, Jake or whatever, all the kids that enter your store. We want to make sure the foundation's there to say, hey, you know, this is a great hobby.
You should, you know, just give it a try. I'm going to try a demo. You know what I mean? Maybe you're just interested in painting the miniatures. Maybe you're just a talented person. Maybe you're an artist and you, you want to make terrain or, you know, get into that side of the hobby. Maybe you're an artist. You want to draw and and replicate the images you see in the books and and illustrate those, you know, as a hobby. So we're all coming from
different angles. And yeah, I I just want to see the hobby continue, you know, keep it, keep it going, whatever, whatever shape or form it turns into be, you know what I mean? So and that's about, you know, being positive, doing things like your gut, you know, your initiative doing that, you know, doing a live stream about it, you know, opening up a store and those those kind of things where it's like a a shop front where people can look in and say, wow,
what's all this stuff? Because you know, the exposure, that's the the other thing that people don't get. There's just not enough places where people can see this stuff, you know? I agree. I think it's. I think it's a it's. I don't want to say it's a it's not. It's definitely not a dying or shrinking hobby because it's
bigger now than it's ever been. But I think the, I think one of the the craziest things to me is like all the people that are wandering in my store and you know like like we talked about last time on when you got one on our show, we're all around the same age, right? Like I'm in my late 40s. You guys are you guys around the same? You're within a. Couple years ago, much younger Jake, not younger, but. Yeah, you're like 20.
Seven at least, but like. But the but the rest of us, but, but like some, some guy wandered in my store and we're chatting for a few minutes and I said to him, I was like, he's like, well, you know, I'm too old to play all this stuff. And I looked at him and I went, I bet I'm older than you. And he was like, well, I just turned 47. And I was like, I turned 48. I turned 49 this summer. And he was like, he was like, oh, whoa, whoa, I mean, whoa. I was just never exposed to this.
And he's like, you must have had an older brother that was in it. I was like, Nope. I was like, I'm the oldest brother. And he was like, oh, like it's it's just so many people. Like, Like you said, so many people just never had the opportunity. And it's it's kind of a shame, right, 'cause it's like why I didn't get exposed to this. So I said to the guy, the best thing you can say to anybody. You can always get into it now like it. It's not like you miss the ride.
Like the bus is still here. Just get on the bus. Like you don't need to. You don't need to worry about it. Like just do you think this is cool? Then you should get into it. And we've been lucky. We've got a lot of people that do that. One of one of our newest members on on our stream, the guy who was painting the Gundams Dave, he he popped into my store today and he's never painted a space marine. So today he was like, hey, can I
just buy a space marine? And I was like, there's no way to. And I was like, oh, wait, I have the the start, you know, getting started with warmer 40,000, the little magazine booklet that comes with a Necron and a Space Marine. And I was like, here and he was like, oh, this is so cool, I can made a space Marine. My son's gonna be super excited. I was like awesome like that. That's what you want, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's definitely cool. Yeah, that's really good.
So, and I think nowadays, you know, just aside from Games Workshop, of course, they've got a very strong IP with Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and that kind of thing. But I want to talk to you guys about that too. I think the, the trends now within the war gaming industry is that they try to acquire some kind of big IP like Marvel or Star Wars or The Song of Ice and Fire, George R Martin's book series Star Trek. You know you can. You could rattle off a whole heap of Batman, Harry Potter
from night models. You can rattle off a whole heap of different IPS where they're now trying to find obviously younger people or you know, middle-aged people, whatever, trying to lure them in that way. Do you think you're seeing that trend as well, Jake, with the, with the product on your shelves, man? That's it.
That is a good question. So I would say, I would say that GW by far has the biggest like they're they're the £400 gorilla, right, Like they have they, they are the Dunkin' Donuts or the Coca-Cola of of the brand. So everybody knows what that is. Everybody knows is familiar with it. If you are even remotely interested in mini war gaming, you know what Games Workshop is like, no one's confused about that.
But in terms of the licenses I think that I think that part of the reason that some sometimes they do really well and sometimes they don't and I think part of it depends on not even the not even the the the IP or the OR even the company it's how their deal was structured and and and this is more like I don't know how businessy you want me to get but on the the business side like on the on the behind the scenes like we're
gonna make this thing. One of my favorites is Halo so the guys who used to make drop drop Fleet commander or sorry not not them it was it was the the Firestorm Ramada it was the guys who made Firestorm Ramada. So Firestorm Armada was basically a battle fleet, gothic sort of surrogate, and it's really fun. The rules are great, it runs on the Armada system, so it's very similar. And they made a couple of other games. They make like a they make like a Wild West game.
Spartan Games Is it? Is it Spartan Games? Is it Spartan? OK so so yeah, so Spartan basically also made like a a wheeled a weird Wild West game called Wild West Exodus and they make Dystopian wars and Dystopian Rising and they signed a deal to get the Halo license. And I I remember I was psyched. I was like oh that'll be really cool, like Pillar of Autumn and all like the Halo ships, like that'll be neat. And it was going to be a
Starfleet like combat game. The idea was that they were going to expand and then make a miniature's combat game with like, you know, Master Chief and Spartans and Warthogs and like all the, you know, the alien races and stuff. And it's a huge license, but the deal that they signed was Super IP restrictive. And then on top of that, the amount of money they had to pay just to get access to the IP, it drowned them like it literally pulled them under.
And you know the the starter set for Halo War or Halo Starfleet battles was like $300.00. There's 29999. And again, for those of you who are familiar with Battle Fleet Gothic or like Man of War, any of the naval games, it's the same kind of thing. So it was 299. It came with a rule book, you know, some Covenant ships, some, you know, United States or UNSC ships. But they were only making something insane like they were making like 30 bucks profit on the game.
And I was like how did that happen? And it was like, well, it was a small print run and we did a ton of front loading to make all the ships and make all all the machinery up front. And we front loaded that. And then the deal was anytime we sell one, the company gets like they get like it was like 50 or 60 bucks. That's just what you write a check to them for every time you
sell one. So it it it just now I'm sure there were other problems too, but like that was one of the big ones that I heard that that kind of pulled them under. So it wasn't that the license wasn't popular, it's the fact that I don't think that enough people A knew about it and B, they didn't have the money leftover to do marketing because of the way their their settlement was was structured. And then they weren't making enough money on it.
So they were like front loading all of this work and then it just it just drowned them and a bunch of their stuff still exists. They got bought by some other companies like I know I think the guys at War Cradle or Warsenal one of those War Cradle. So like they. Yeah. So they bought like Wild West Exodus and Dystopian Wars and all that stuff and Firestorm Ahmad I think was the old one and and they were they're like they were great games but it just it just pulled that company under.
I think that other companies have been really smart like Seamon you were talking about the song of it's a fire game. So our buddy Brian Steele like worked on that a little bit with some of their testing and Mike Chanel like I I've met Mike a handful of times, you know good solid designer and when they put out. Let's say that Jake, when you next time you speak with him, don't call him Mike. Make sure it's Michael. Yes. Sorry. He he he likes Michael.
I I shorten everybody's names I just it's just a habit. But so anyway so when when they got that license they didn't go to George R Martin and get that license because at that point he was working with HBO and it would have cost them. I don't even want to think about what it would have cost them.
Dark Sword miniatures had to deal with George from way before that when he was still doing like he was writing like book three or something and they were putting out miniatures like you can get like single guys and and different characters. It's like, oh, you can get the hound in metal like oh cool, what metal? So they went through them and they worked out idea with dark swords.
So like when you buy the song about some fire stuff on the back of the box it says Seamon miniatures and then it says George R Martin and then it says dark Sword miniatures. Yeah Dark Sword didn't do anything other than let them use the license that they had like and and again I I don't know what the agreement was but that was how they did it.
So it was really smart they were able to do it and have access to it and despite all the work that that Michael did and and everybody else building it if if they hadn't gotten a good deal on the licensing rights they would have killed them they they wouldn't have been able to make the game and and it and it's obviously it depends on the size of the company and like what you want to do and the scope of the project and it's like if you and
Dave got access to Mad Max it's like OK are we making a Mad Max role-playing game like a pen and paper game. Are we making a Mad Max miniatures game. Are we making a Mad Max tabletop war game. Is it a skirmish game or is it a war game? Like it it all depends on we're making Fury Rd. That's it. Yeah. Awesome. I'm in. And maybe a role-playing game, but Fury Rd.
I'm in I I'm 100% on board like where do we you got you guys heard it here first on Cronic Command Dave Taylor gonna get us the rights to make I'm pretty sure if since he's Australian I think we can just make a Mad Max game. I think that's just yeah. I I think it's required. Yeah, it's. It's not even an option. We have to make that game. It's. Called. Really. It's called Really Required. I'm obligated, yeah, for sure.
If we. If we don't, they're just gonna mail Dave a creative Huntsman. Spiders and then. But no. Yeah, so. OK, they're not venomous. Yeah, no, I know. They're just giant and scary looking. But yeah, so it it a lot of it depends. But but back to your original question, I think that some of the other IPS are really clever that the song game, like I said, is great and they're putting on a new one called Tactics. It's song invites of our tactics I think.
And that's again going to be a skirmish based game. It's only going to be a handful of models, whereas Song is a it's a tabletop rank and flank, you know, giant blocks of units that have flanks and rears, and you got to worry about your charging and like what you're hitting, and it's a really fun game. And then you've got companies like asmode, who's a giant corporate juggernaut, and they
own like 37 different gaming companies. 70 something like 72% of the board game industry is owned by Asmode. They own Fantasy Flight Games and Z Man Games and Rocket, Rocket Dog and Space Cowboy and Repo Studios and Libelud. Like they own so many of them. But Fantasy Flight kind of from for a long time, Fantasy Flight's had a Star Wars license 'cause they made what like Imperial Assault and then like X Wing and and Armada and all that stuff and they're they're really
good. But the the Batman game the the night models game, it might as well be you know it's it's a it's a random skirmish game that that lives in obscurity. Like it's it's a fun game and the models are the models are great but it it's another sort of like, I mean I don't even know how to it's it's like it's like being into like more time, right More time is a great game but it has a very specific fan set right. Like it's not you're not gonna see that everywhere. Even GW doesn't promote it
anywhere. It's a it's a quote UN quote dead game. I know more people that play that than play the Batman game. Yeah, I know. I've never seen it play it either. Yeah. It's like a. Lot of. Games, you know, Yeah, from those really small companies. You just never see them get much game time or play time on tables. But there's something alluring about those smaller games too. I don't know why. I've always been, I've always been attracted to the sort of, you know, the underground type
games. I don't know why. Yeah, I love the yeah. Yeah, I knew about this before. Like Rackham from France, you know, that was like a really underground game. Infinity from Corvus Belly, when that was like a really underground game. No, no one knew about it. I was really attracted to that kind of stuff as well. I think there's AI think there's a there's a pretty big thing there though, that you're the two games you just brought up. Yeah, the What's the biggest
thing about those games? The models are gorgeous. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the Minis are amazing looking. Yeah, the artwork, the images. Yeah, And and that goes a long way. I I think that if you have like breathtaking looking miniatures, I think that they're gonna sell them. It doesn't matter what the IP is like, that's what. Yeah, we can make something up right now. As long as the minis are gorgeous, it's gonna sell.
Yeah, I think that the, I would say the the biggest sort of pushback I would say on a lot of the smaller scale games that you're talking about is I know that if I take my Warhammer, my if I take my Space Marine Army and I'm going out to like like in the summer, Dave and I are going to to San Diego Comic Con to paint paint lessons. We're gonna teach paint lessons, We'll be there for like the week. But I know if I bring my Space Marine army I can get a game in.
I know I'll be able to get a game if if I show up with my Batman war band. I don't know like maybe. So with those smaller games. Part of the reason I think people get attracted to these games is if if I if I come to you and we're all hanging out regularly and I'm like, Dave, I painted up some space wings, this Warhammer game looks pretty cool And Dave goes, those miniatures are pretty cool.
You know what? I'm gonna paint up some of those guys and then we talk to you and we're like, hey, Dave and I painted armies from Warhammer 40K. Like we're gonna try to play it this weekend. Do you want to play? It's like, Oh well my friends are into this. I'm gonna play it.
Whereas if if you come to us and you're like, hey I found this obscure game do you guys want to have you guys ever heard of this and Dave and I are like I don't like I don't know that game and it's like oh do you want to play it. And it's like I don't even know any stores around here that carry that stuff. It's just I think it's just it's more barriers to entry into what is already a like a serious like serious is the wrong word but like what is already like a a a
pretty involved hobby. So I I whenever you add more layers of obstacles I just don't think it's necessarily the best idea. Yeah, that's true. And I I think that's the key point there. It's one of the one of the barriers that is removed by using a well known IP like somebody's picking up those or deciding rather than creating our own miniatures game with our own law and our own story and reasons for these miniatures to
exist. If you go with Star Wars, you go with Marvel, you go with DC and go with Horizon 0 Dawn, that kind of thing. There's a a large larger amount of the population who understand what that is, kind of inherently so, you know, then it just becomes OK. So I get the this representation of General Kenobi and Grievous. Whatever is is it he also General? Yeah, Grievous General Kenobi. Yeah.
So it's a they know who those things are and they wrap the concept much more easily that this is a piece representing, you know, I mean, this is a piece representing Grievous. And then I can smash them together. Sure. There are some rules that tell me how to smash them together rather than going what's what's this guy riding this lizard? I don't.
I don't get it. Yeah, it's so it strips away that sort of thing which is why I think that yeah we we are seeing more IPS being mined for that kind of thing because it's it reduces that removes that particular barrier. The companies that are that are making their own stuff are doing so at a much slower pace. It's a much more organic kind of build for it. So or they're copying they're they're creating proxies for other sort of systems. So there's that that thing where is it good?
I think it's getting more people playing is it unique and innovative Not so much. So it's there's that balance there. Yeah. Maybe also it sort of it, it spans across from, you know, movies, comic books, role-playing games, board games, miniature games. So you you've got that sort of interrelationship between all of those things where they're going to catch you at some point. Somewhere along that line you're
going to see the movie. Oh, there's a there's a board game, there's Monopoly. Who's brought out ADC comics, you know, Avengers style, you know, Monopoly set. And then, you know, then you stumble across something else in the store that has, oh, there's Games Workshop, they've got their own little thing or some other company of selling their miniatures or board game that have the same kind of IP relationship to that. So we're somehow getting, you know, because the Song of Ice and Fire.
I got into that because I knew that I was really enjoying the HBOTV series. I knew about the characters, I knew about the houses and I thought I like rank and flank
games. You know, I looked at the ministers, I thought, OK, I know the PVC, but you know, I'll, I'll, you know, I like metal models, but I'll, I'll give it a pass and I'll give it a go. It's actually a really good game and if I was going to introduce anybody to like a mass table top game game, I think some wise Fire does that beautifully. It's just got really great rules.
It's a living rule book. You've got everything on an app, you can download it for free, you've got everything at your fingertips, and I think it's just a really, you know, intuitively done game. It also has a couple of really nice things going for it. Like the the miniatures are, they're really nice. Like the sculpts are gorgeous. They're they're first wave stuff. Even like if you look back at it now compared to like the new models that have come out, you're like it's not quite as
good. They're still great. Like the new models are just better. Like they, they've just gotten better at it. But the sculpts are Dave. It's all big child creative, right? I think all the big child. 'S doing all of the sculpting code. One, so the the the, the sculpt, the sculpts are amazing. The character, the characters are phenomenal. They make some of my favorite units. Like I think the I think the She Bears is like one of my
favorite. Yeah. The Mormont She Bears are like one of my favorite models and like ever like they're just gorgeous sculpts. But you're right it's it's a it's also a solid gameplay. Again you know tip of the cap to to Michael Chennell. He's done a phenomenal job with that game and and he's he's put a lot of time and energy into making sure that that game plays the right way. And it it you know it it handles the way that it handles and that like you said the fact that it
can like update in real time. There's no like Oh my army stinks. It's like it's cool like they they just updated like they fixed that thing or they fixed whatever. It's also as a consumer it's got a great price point like you're you're talking $35 for a unit and again I'm you're you're in Australia.
So all your prices are like double or whatever but it's it's it's still, it's still very reasonable for for a price point and they're the big starter boxes, the one player starter sets and there's like I think there's eight of them now they're they're great and every army plays different. They're not the same. Yeah, like if you just want to smash someone's face in and you don't want to have to worry about like, oh, I got to be cunning and I have to do this
thing. And you play the Starks. If if you want to just hit stuff super hard and be kind of like a like a paper tiger, then you want to play like, you know the nights watch because you you hit super hard. But they don't have a ton of armor. If you want to, if you want to be kind of like Trixie and move stuff around and, you know, take casualties and then get extra bonuses, you want to play like the Greyjoys because they they look like they're big, scary, heavy infantry.
They are not. They are designed to kind of hit. Yeah, like they're the first time we played them. They look like a bunch of Norse Reavers. So my my business partner, Ben. We were at Gamma and he got one of those boxes and I bought the Stark box and we were like, oh, cool, let's let's have our, you know, different. You know, my, my Stark guys with Hobberks are gonna fight your Viking guys with Hobberks, and
this will be fun. And after the after the first interaction, Ben was like, oh, OK, I see my guys are not meant to do that. Like I should not be throwing them in your heavy units. But it's just it's really fun. There's so many different variables, and and they all feel different. Yeah, yeah, switch out your command to switch out the attachments and you're just playing a different game, you know what I mean? That's. Oh, absolutely. That's another great. That's excellent.
The off the non combat character on the on the little platform thing. Super cool. And they all do different things depending on who you take and. Yeah, that's great. That's so there's really good stuff out there, really good innovative games out there, you know game wise and that kind of thing. So yeah, like I like you said I think to Jake and Dave I think we're living in the best time for to in terms of like the war game hobby. It's not going to go away.
It's not dying. We've got plenty of people out there, plenty of games invest or companies investing into the you know the production and development of these games. So it's just great. So mate, look, we're almost out of time here today and I want you to, I want you to, I want to firstly say thank you so much for coming on to talk about the Build Paint play program or well, not program community.
I should say the live stream, it's like a secret US program maybe, I don't know, but in your bunkers maybe that's what you're sort of planning all along. But yeah, I want to, I want to, you know, say to people the links are down below, check them out in the podcast. Go and click on that to get to the YouTube channel and the Facebook group so they can join and and participate. And at least, you know, have a look and try it out and see if if they enjoy it.
But I know they'll enjoy the chats on the on the live stream a lot. And now, Jake, what's what's the name of your store, buddy? Alpha Omega Hobby. That's it. Alpha Omega hobby So. Alpha, Alpha, Omega. Hobby. Single, Single. I'll check that. As in as in the Royal. It's all hobbies. It encompasses all. Hobbies, right? Like, you've got a really slick website. I must say, it's absolutely amazing.
So I'll have to talk to you at some point, getting that the song by some fire stuff over here, because I can't. Yeah, I, I ship stuff. We shipped stuff everywhere. During the pandemic, we had a huge uptick in online sales, obviously 'cause you couldn't go anywhere. I had a guy in Australia place an order for he was probably like $400.00 worth of stuff, and his shipping was like 260 bucks. And I'm recalling the guy and I was like, Are you sure you want
to do this? And he's like, yeah, like nobody has it. You guys are the only ones that have on the website and I just want to make sure I get it. So I was like, look, while I have you on the phone, is there like, is there anything else that you're looking for? Because the shipping isn't going to change. So if you want to get more stuff, I'll add it. And he was like let he's like let me check And so he wanted like I added a bunch of paint and he added a couple more
units. But again like we shipped some, I shipped some to guys in Japan. So you will not be my first Japanese customer, but. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much again for for both of you coming on and taking your time. I know you're doing a bit of hobby, which is great because I don't want to take that time away from you, but enjoy the rest of your evening. And Dave, is there any, any last words mate you want to say to the to the Cranker mass community, Cranker mass
community? Just just say thanks very much for listening to us. And yeah, if you'd like what we heard, come check us out. All right. Yeah. Thanks for having us on, Josh. Yeah. Thank you so much. No problem. I I really enjoyed our chat today. I I I think we've covered a lot of good, good topics as well, and I just want to point out too that Dave also has Dave Taylor's Art of Book series.
I'll leave a link in that for Dave's website so you can check out some of the amazing work people are doing out there in the hobby world. They are fantastic. All right, guys. Well, so thanks again. Take care, enjoy the rest of your night, and get back to your hockey game, mate. OK. I need you. Thank. You so much. OK. Bye. Bye. See you.