Joe, it's been long overdue made this conversation, but I'm really glad that you can make the time to come talk to us on the Crown of Commandment. Oh, my pleasure, Josh. Thanks for thanks for asking. Like most, most gamers, I enjoy talking about games, you know, So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I was happy to happy to come on. And and as you know, we're, we're fresh from our our recent tournament.
So there's still lots of buzz, lots of buzz about Warhammer, Josh. Yeah, Now that's, that's one of the reasons why I think it's just been long overdue because I wanted to get you on the podcast before that anyway. And I know you sent me a very nice invitation and and a message through Facebook Messenger to say, hey, Josh, if you're if you're thinking about coming to New Zealand, then we'd like to invite you over, which would have been fantastic.
I was, I was talking to my wife about it because, yeah, I mean, me and my wife would love to come to New Zealand. I think it's such a picturesque looking, beautiful, pristine, untouched, unspoiled country in many respects. And of course, yeah. We're quite good. We're quite good to go there too. They do, yeah. We're quite good at painting, painting it like this. I don't think that's that's quite the quite the reality, but yeah, yeah, no. And you would have been really welcome.
So. So that tournament, Josh was really just and look, I'm sure there are people out there who are interested in old GW games have come to that exactly the same place. You know, I want to play the games, you know, I've dusted off my old collection or I've like scrounged on eBay, but who am I going to play against?
And, and about 15 years ago when I came back to New Zealand from the UK, I've worked briefly for GW in the UK and I worked for GW in New Zealand. So just that, that's sort of by the by really, But I have had had those experiences. I came back to New Zealand and there were games I'd I'd played in the UK that I really wanted to play and, and no one was playing them. You know, they hadn't taken off here or they had briefly and then and then sort of faded
away. And I just, it seemed obvious to get a tournament going with no one. But if you, you know, signal the date and do the advertising and you're enthusiastic about it, you might get people turning up and you demonstrate the game and you're kind of, yeah, you lean people miniatures and paint some stuff for them and, and they've got everyone's got there to work towards. So I've done that with other systems, non GW systems for
quite a few years. And then and then always in the back of my mind, it's it's, yeah, I've had this idea of sort of going back to my kind of first love when it came to war gaming, which is Warhammer Fantasy Battle. I can tell you a bit about that later, right back to the 80s. So I just thought, you know, we'll do do the same thing. It works. It does work. It really does work. And that's just put a date in
the calendar. You know, in New Zealand, you tend to have your tournaments as part of a bigger event with lots of people playing lots of different games. I don't know how it works overseas, but it would have been a bit miserable if just the six of us had been alone in some big dusty halls somewhere. And.
And we did that. And then I just started those conversations, you know, talk to people about the armies and the cupboards and anyone play William Fantasy Battle back in the 90s And. And it just went from there. Yeah. And, and we got fantastic turn out. Well, six of us. I thought that was fantastic. And yeah, we had an amazing time. Yeah. What are you mate? That's wonderful, that's good.
They actually got to be realised and people came along with their models and I presume there were some people you knew and some people you've never met before. Yeah. You know, social media obviously gives us the opportunity now to, I mean, social media is great I think for war gamers because it offers the pros but not necessarily doesn't have so many
of the cons. So in there you can connect with people and you can share images and share any sort of, you know, you know, media that sort of might kind of encourage people or you know, sort of inspire them and painting and stuff and better reports and things. But you still have to get together to play the game. You know, you, you can't kind of use it as a substitute for gaming unless you're one of those. I'm going to be a bit bit
critical here. One of those incredibly annoying people that likes to be involved in gaming scenes and his wants to comment on everything and give advice on everything that never actually plays. I've got no time for those people, Josh. I actually can't stand them. I find them just like a sort of a waste of time. But yeah, so, so we did end up having some people local.
So some guys I played DND with ended up playing and then people came from the other islands from around, from around the island. And yeah, a bunch of us hadn't met before. And it was, it was just awesome. It was just awesome. We had a really good time. Played five games over a weekend. It was a big event for New Zealand. It was about 170 people playing there, a whole bunch of GW games. So it would have been in GW heaven. It was Kill Team, 40K, Heresy competitions.
There was the Old World, same size as us, which was kind of funny. There was a more time tournament, amazing, more time tables and and there was us as well. And yeah, so we played five games. We played the tournament scenario. Anyone who might remember the old old battle book gives gives a whole bunch of really cool scenarios that I don't recall anyone beckon that I actually playing. Everyone just played pitch
battle over and over a key. But there is a tournament scenario on the back and and that was tweaked over time and White Dwarf through to the end of the 90s and we played there and it worked fantastically well. And we got out all the old GW terrain and I even punched out some card buildings from the 90s for the first time and it's just awesome. That's just awesome. Yeah, good on you mate. Now what? What? What? What kind of armies were comprised over the weekend?
What? What stuff do people bring? Yeah, so there was some later stuff in there, like later miniatures, I mean, and I think that's you've just got to be realistic if you want to run an old school of in, I guess you could put some sort of ban or time limit on. But given how few people are going to turn up anyway, I think that would be, I think that would be really silly because but undeniably an appeal of the game to me is nostalgia and I want to play with miniatures from the 90s.
I do, but I also want to play and I just think you'd, it would be ridiculous for someone who brought along like 8th edition plastics, you know, to to say or not you can't can't play with them. I I wouldn't take that approach at all, even if I wouldn't particularly like don't particularly like the looks of them.
So we had what do we have? You're beautifully painted high off army, fantastic Scaven army, a lot of which was was sort of back to 3rd edition stuff and kind of painted in those sort of 3rd edition pastels. They were fantastic, but the guy got really unlucky as grace here, I think tune into a chaos spawn and two out of the five games great. She took pretty hard. He took pretty hard. There was an undeed army which was just fearsome.
So that Vampire Counts book, you know, I think was was regarded by most people as the premier book of the day. And of course it was, you know, you've got GW PAC power creep was the last book. And so he had the vampire. But an increments the Lord with the staff of damnation, the potion of knowledge, which, if it works, lets you just recast spells endlessly as you cast spells for free unless it runs
out. And the increments the Lord of course, can cast them, doesn't have to roll to recast the necromancy spells. So that was great. We had yes. So we had hi old scaven, vampire counts, undead and orcs and goblins, which are always fun to look at and always fun to play. Not always so fun to command.
And then we had my own wood elves, which, which were in sort of a funny choice for me because I don't really like elves, but they were the very first miniatures I, the 1st army I've collected when I, when I got my first job in 97. So that tells you pretty much, yeah. About how old I am, early 40s. So yeah, just just, I'd felt like going right back to the beginning. They weren't the first GW miniatures they ever got or ever painted, but they were the first army I collected.
And I, I lost all those miniatures years ago, but just started with the help of mostly Australians, actually. I got, you know, tons of that, those funny old monopo's arches when we should all, we'd all know them. You know, the ones that the team tour box monopos of the late 90s, mid 90s I should say actually because they they went, you know, they started to get into multi part, didn't they?
By the late 90s of the Empire seat first of all, and those really ugly dwarves those hunchbacked multi part towards. So yeah, what else? Me and we all played each other so 5 rounds and it was great. So I got to play 55 different opponents and one weekend and it was so cool. It was so cool. That's wonderful mate, that's good. So a really nice array, no double up, no double UPS on armies. That's really cool to see. And you know, 6 willing
opponents, 6 willing opponents. Like I said, you got to play five game, which is huge. So I hope we can do that here, replicate that in our Wahama Renaissance events here as that we play those quite regularly, but we only play them as two games in a day. We only squeeze them in for that much. But I'd love to do a 2 day event. That'd be awesome to do that one. That's yeah it, it is good and it's an opportunity to socialise in the evenings if you if you've
got the time and money. I didn't but but I know the other guys went out for a beer afterwards and because they were, some of them are staying in the same hotel right next to the venue. And it also gives an opportunity to debrief and talk about what we, you know, and if you've got a mate there, you know, you talk about how you're playing the next day and you give each other advice and that sort of thing and laugh about, you know, the, the bad stuff that happened and
you can't tweak your army lists. So we, one of the things we did with the with so we had, so we had the, had the scenario in here. Like I say, it was quite, it was quite heavily amended by GW through the 90s. And and by the time, I think probably by the end of the edition, they had the, the, the tournament had evolved. The tournament rules had evolved quite a bit.
And I'm just going to quote to you where you find that final iteration of the tournament rules, not Wolf 222, because we got a lot of amended Magic rules from that. Yep. I don't have it off the top of my head. I'm sorry, Josh, it was in one of those 23234234. No, I made that up. OK, I made that up. But so, so things that have were evolving towards the end of the 90s with 100 point VP system as opposed to one VP from right from 4th.
So gaining 465 points for a 465 point unit as opposed to four in that sort of thing, 100 points for table quarters. So the VP system was getting a bit more sophisticated. People who played tournaments back then might remember that vetoes became a thing. So you, you may be allowed to, depending on the con, the content of your army, veto enemy magic items and opponents magic items and you have to pay victory points in order to do that. And so they start with victory points.
I don't think it was a thing in the official in the original tournament scenario, but where it evolved was that you bid victory points for the first turn. I'd forgotten about that. So, so you can start a game with with your opponent having 34500 victory points. And I did start some games like that, I think 500 with the undead maybe because I really wanted the 1st. I really wanted a couple of those items out of the game. Really wanted a couple of those items out of the game.
Yeah. So so that and I think there are a couple of along along with the tournament rules, there are a couple of restrictions around some things you can take. Greater demons were out, allies were mostly but not entirely out. So Empire could take human dogs of war units, for instance, or can you know? Yeah, yeah, So yeah, the five, five games was was fantastic.
And then we finished early on the last day, which meant sort of prize giving and a big debrief and lots of high fiving and pack up. And and because it was an event that we were in the club provided medals and prizes and that was really cool, you know, because otherwise we wouldn't, wouldn't have been that sophisticated. They also provided actually lots of the classic scenery as well
from their club lockers. So we were, we were lucky enough to have, you know, all the old bottle brush trees and the those green moulded plastic hills. And did anyone even bring any of the whippy? I think a couple of guys brought those dreadful whippy rollers. No one got worked with them, unlike in the store back in the day when kids, I remember kids at sword fight with them. Yeah, Yeah. So. So it was cool, cool.
And like you say, having five different opponents makes you well, might make you play in five different ways, certainly adjust to five different, you know, five different ways of sort of you certainly have to adjust, you know, just your thinking, you know, how am I going to take on this new
opponent? I, I have to say my army probably played like in a pretty sort of I had the same approach basically in every game, which is a bit, maybe a bit dreary, but anyway, that's, that's, that's what worked. Joe, you want to go through your list mate? What did you take on the day? Yeah, yeah. So for anyone, anyone who remembers what else, this is a 4th edition book. So this 4th edition book is, is frighteningly good. It doesn't look that good.
The special characters are kind of crappy apart from the king and queen of the Woods, which you can't have. So the tournament roles, GW tournament roles by the late 90s were I think, I think only special characters with one wound or less. Oh, you can't have less 1 wound. So that's your skink. I don't know, you could just probably a couple of skinks in that category. There's one character and there'd be very few and I could just be making that up. Anyway, that's what we had.
I think that was official DW. So you look at the Woodhill farming list. It doesn't list. It doesn't look that good, but then actually it's really good. So my, my whole and look, if you want to go back to top players in the 90s, players like Dave Kane, you can see that they're playing with elves and they're playing them like like this and freak. So I'm not, I'm not reinventing the wheel. So the idea is with this army that you avoid combat. You avoid combat for the whole
game if you can. And you sometimes can, especially if the enemy is really slow. And even if the enemy is quite fast, you might be able to shoot the fast things and then the rest of them don't get to you. So this was an idea I just stole from Dave Kane. You've got your what off General? They have the bow of Ethel Lauren. So they shoot at their rate of attacks and the strength is their own strength. So that's four strength, four
shots. The Ballistics kill 7 so they can't miss and you give them a potion of strength. So if they drink that at the start of the turn, they're strength seven shots for that turn. So that's you kill. What do you kill with that? Things like banshees and anything ethereal that's walking around is dead because you people may not remember but it's auto hits if you if you're hitting on A1. Plus with your ballistic skill in 5th edition, you don't miss on A1. Wow.
OK, nice. Yeah, so he's not going to miss. So that's that's good. I mean, if you're strength 7 two, you can kill Hebe cavalry with it. So that's a good combination. Of course, if they veto, if they can veto and they veto you, Bow of Ethel Lauren, then your Potion of strength is kind of useless. They've given you 100 points. That's your consolation. I took Nayaf the properties. Again, a nasty little choice.
She's a special character in here and she's really weak, but her main ability as she has this owl and the owl flies to one of your shooting units a turn and it hoots and the hoot is a clue about hoot. Just shoot and you re roll misses. So you obviously for what else that's really good. And the general was in a unit of 18 arches. So you put the elf on that they all they owl on that they all shoot, they re roll misses.
It's it's a terrible thing. I had a mage champion on a war hawk with the spell scroll destroy magic scroll. So his idea, the idea for him was not to cast any spells. He was only unable to they'll probably be dispelled but actually just fly behind the enemy units, March block and dispel magic for as long as he could. I had a ward answer champion with the heart of Woe and a unit of ward answers and my idea was that an extremist.
If enemy got close enough to charge, I would put them in the way that shadows shadows coil for the first turn. That means no blows are struck in the combat as a draw. So that's that's great. And again, kind of awful, like, you know, you have someone that marches their army at you, raked by bow fire. Everyone's falling in heaps. They finally get at you like turn 5 or something and they're like, right, I'm finally going to kill some elves.
But you've left like this little screen of wood answers in the way and they charge you and then you're like our shadows coil, game's over. And you see their faces fall. And that's when you up the ante by like slapping them at the back of your hand and something like that.
So what else is awful? But I gave him the heart of why I was thinking, I don't know, if I can't shoot something, maybe I could run at them and get killed and blow up and take them with me. So he was in a unit of war answer that, a second unit of war answers. So I had one screen on each side of the army. I had a unit of 10 scouts and the champion had a hail of Dome arrow. Don't leave home without that. They were ballistic skill 5. So pretty, pretty deadly shots.
And when he shoots, it's an average of seven strength 4 arrows he's shooting. And of course, what else? Shooting at under half range have a -1 to the armor saves, so within 18 inches so they can shoot, you know, things with armor saves of 3/4 and, and, and kill them. I had a champion on this is this is again how cheesy my army was. I had a champion on a war hawk and a unit of war hawk riders. And he had the black team of Nah.
And the idea there was to fly anything deadly and just trap it with the black team of Nah, but also to fly over the enemy again March block or to use them to kill artillery crew, which I had to when I was fighting the high elves because the repeated bolt thrower was doing terrible things to me. So then rank and file 18 arches unit of nine arches, the two units of war answers. Like I said I had eight way
watches. I had the 9 scouts of the champion, had the war walk riders and the only thing I had for. Close combat really were dryads, so 6 dryads. So the idea was to just stay away from the enemy, deploy on the back line, use my skirmishing units to hide in the woods to slow them down, to March block and to bring my Flyers if at all possible, or to kill their flies if if I needed to.
And in in that game against the Hiles, they did fly up and kill a hero on a Pegasus. They killed the Pegasus actually. And like the hero just fall to the ground and and then come back down behind the enemy and March block. So they're moving only at 4 inches a tune and you're just shooting and shooting and shooting. So that's, that's the idea.
I got another idea from from again from Master Dave Kane, which is that in these tournament scenarios, you deploy your terrain, you alternate and someone passes and then you you can put one more piece down, but putting and you have two hills, 2 woods in two buildings and that's it. I would else get another wood as well. So his thing was you put down a big hill at your each of the table. I would never have done this back in the day. I think it would, I thought it
would have looked unsightly. You just put Oh, also I should say in the tournament scenarios, hills are infinitely high. That's important. So if you're on a hill, you can see everything. You can't hide. Just terrible against the shooting army. I mean, I guess everything can see your units on the hip. And what if they can't shoot this Moat? So you put in a hill and then you put the biggest wood you've got right in front of the hill so the enemy can't get to you.
And there's there's no unit in the game. I'd be, apart from some skirmishes, ethereal troops and other wood elves that are going to get across the table and throw a wood in five turns. So they are, they have to flank you so you protect your flanks with your wood answers or they have to fly high and come down on you. You can stand and shoot when things come down from flying high, which is no good if you're charging wood elf arches or otherwise. They just kind of get to you.
And yeah, yeah. So. So that's that's the way the Army plays. And I actually won all five games, Josh. So it's, yeah, it's a shit. It's a shit of an Army. I'll be honest, I didn't use the black team once. I didn't have to. Yeah. All right. I just machine gunned everything. Yeah. Some games I didn't lose any miniatures. Wow. OK. We're going to send a nice thank you letter to David. David Kane. When?
You I should, I should if he's out there, if he's listening, he's probably if he's still with us because yeah, it's it's a shit of an army. It's really, really hard to beat. Now I go, I go really light on the magic. And I think you can go really light on the magic. I'd level 1, level 2 to spell magic scroll in a destroy magic scroll. And what I've found is that with this army at least, that will get you through 2 three turns at will.
I mean, what are you rolling? On average, you're rolling seven wins of magic. On average, you're getting 3 1/2 in your hand. Two of those might be power. That's just not going to give your opponent. They're just not going to do that much damage unless they've got something like the potion of knowledge. You just, I think you over. You can overestimate how scary
your opponent's Wizards are. Some of the time they're just not going to do anything and you know, and if a few they do roll 12 cards, they might get 6 and you can't get a drain magic and then then it's over for them as well. So I just use magic can be terrible like a play spell like plague can kill your entire units. You know, I know that in that tournament, the skating player killed 20 C guard and one with one plague spell. And obviously that's why you have your destroy magics and
your dispel magic scrolls ready. But I just think, well, I've I've found that you even even playing it's the undead. They had 7 levels of magic I could destroy. I destroy scrolled, I destroy scrolled his van hills dance macabre. That's what I kept him for. So that was great. And the rest I just managed to sort of keep at a level which didn't really affect me. Also managed to pack office Wizards 1 by 1 as well.
Yeah. So I'm, I'm happy and I've actually, it's funny, I've just scratched down my well, not scratched down. It's in it's ironclad now my list the next year, next year. And I'm going to do this same approach, low, low magic approach and just enough to keep keep it, yeah, keep it damped down until I can kill the Wizards. Yeah. That sounds wonderful. Well, we're going to talk a
little bit more about that. I'm going to ask you a few more questions about your collections and about next year's event. We're just going to go for a very brief ad break and when we come back we can ask Joe some more questions about the event and about here's Wahama history. I'll be back soon. I was just actually just looking on Facebook and on the 4th and 5th Hirahama Facebook page. I saw the tactic in Playmate. I saw you using it, the hill and the and the fire in front of it.
Yeah, I left a nice comment for you there, so you can go and check out later and see what you think. Yeah, Yeah. Look, I was conscious and as I was talking, well, actually reflecting on what I was saying, Josh, that I'm talking all about tournaments, right? Yeah. And tournaments are not everyone's cup of tea. They're actually usually not my cup of tea. And this tournament was was exceptional. It's the first tournament I've been at Eva where I went away wanting to play again and to
paint again. Normally my miniatures go on a case. I don't even want to look at them for months afterwards. I've done my dash. So this tournament was exceptional, but and, and most of us felt like that one guy even went home and played another 3000 point game on the Sunday evening after his five games over the weekend. Yeah, where he was, he was that pumped And, and everyone's talking about next year and, and what they're going to paint, what they're going to play and
stuff. And it's it's really cool. But yeah, I just wanted to acknowledge that tournaments are not everyone's cup of tea. And if you're listening to this thinking that army list you're talking about, Joe sounds horrible and that way of playing sounds horrible. And the black team of Nara is horrible. And I would never let anyone play it. That's absolutely fine too. Just for me, it made sense to do a tournament to get people into into the game, but you don't
have to do it like that. And it might not work for for you and for the people you know. So I just want to acknowledge that the tournaments are not be yours and indoors and there's lots of cool, interesting gamers out there doing awesome projects. It'd be like, I don't want to spend a whole weekend in a big loud hall full of sweaty nudes. So yeah, was fair enough. Some people thrive on that environment though, and they like some people really like tournaments and I totally get it.
I mean, look at the Flailess Sky Skull guys in Denmark. I mean, it's all about the meta gaming. It's all about that. And I think a lot of people get off on that, and that's fine. That's totally cool. Yeah, we all get our own little thing about it, you know what I mean? It. Yeah, totally. Now, look, in between tournaments now we want to play the campaign box hits. We want to play Grudge of Drong. It's back there. Look, look what I dug out. Josh Drong himself.
He's Drong himself. Back in the day, Yep, we want to play a gathering of might, you know, a big game, maybe not quite the gathering of might. We don't. I don't think 25,000 points would be, I think it'd be a bit much for us. So just that too long. But yeah, we want to do non tournament stuff too. So it's not about tournaments, it's just how we got started and I do think it's a good way to get started.
Here's an event, it's going to be cool, all the classic scenery come along, you'll play lots of games. That'll be great. Yeah. Awesome mate, That's great. Talking about the Gathering of Might, funnily enough, one of my Aussie patrons in fact sent me a message out of the blue and said, Hey, Josh, you might want to, you know, disregard this comment out of hand completely. But would you want to do, would you want to recreate the
gathering of Might? Because I love doing these, as you know, on the channel, recreating the scenarios and that kind of thing, like the campaign sets and all that kind of stuff. That's where my, my heart is really at at the moment. And I said, well look mate, I'll have a look at it. I doubt it, but I'll have a look at it and just go through the list and see what we can do. So the Orkan goblins are almost all covered. I've only got a couple of things that I need to get to actually
have all the Orkan goblin stuff, which is. 25,000 points of Orks and goblins. I've pretty much got it covered. Yeah, I think the only thing I was missing was the ork arches. I've got. I've got 15 ork arches, but I I think I needed more. I think they had some plastic lines. Look, yeah, So what were they? Because they didn't produce them in 5th edition. What? What what miniatures were they? Are they 3rd edition Ork arches? Yes, they're.
Part or are they savagely? Oh, right, OK, yeah, they're the old Kate Adams regiments and renown Ork arches, right? Did they just? Scavenge. Archers, they possibly did. Yeah, they did, but they're absolutely useless. I mean, why would you want to give a frenzied orc and a bow? Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. True, shoot for shit anyway, but then. Unless you wanted to put a shaman in there and get the
extra. Like get five of them and put a shaman and have them at the back to get the extra power card. Yeah, no, Sam, Sam, one of my English friends, he plays with us in our group. We started playing 5th edition when I, of course, when I first started the Crown of Command. And that's how it all really started. We played 5th edition solely. And Sam was one of the guys I met here locally and he's got one of the most impressive looking Savage York armies you've ever seen.
He's collected all the models painted beautifully in that sort of, you know, era style and everything. And, and it was the first time I really got to see Savage Yorks on the table. And I love how they've got the extra bonus wins and Magic cards. And he plays a really strong competitive. And it's an extra save. Yeah, it's award save. So you can throw it, you can, you can Chuck a cannonball through those bloody things and they'll get a save on it.
You know, they'll just bounce off it or whatever. And I'll never forget that first game we ever played. And I just wasn't, I just wasn't thinking of what was going to happen. But he charged his giant into my unit. He picked up my general, my dwarf general, because I was playing dwarfs and he stuck him. He stuck my general in his pocket and that was the end of it. Like I, I think I got one. I think you get a chance to attack him or something before he put he. Stuff he wound, he wound him.
I think he drops you. Yeah, and I didn't wound him, so he was gone. I'll never forget that. It was classic. Yeah, I remember playing a game in in London at the GW store I was running and we were playing 7th edition. But yeah, a giant with one wound got across the table and got my dwarf general and picked him up at my dwarf general, got him between the eyes with his axe. And yeah, it's a good moment. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. Giants are great.
They're, I think those big model, those big miniatures, it's it's lovely to see them on the table. And, you know, something that just howls over the the rest of the troops and, you know, causes terror. Terror is a common mechanic. I love the idea of something just walking up to your army, everyone running away, Maybe not my army, but an opponent's army. So yeah, Orcs and goblins. Orcs and goblins other heart. I feel like the other the the spirit of UMM of the that edition of Warhammer.
They they encapsulate the sort of the Geist of. Umm, yes, very much the. Era and and it's that some of that fun that I feel was so so conspicuously lacking in 6th edition like umm like Thomas Perinan I mean he just it was so sombre so sort of grey you even look at the artwork I mean I actually think I've got rid of all my 6 edition stuff pretty. Impressing. Really. Yeah. Yeah, the artwork is really grim. It's like horrific. And it's, you know, it's it's in, you know, it's in blacks and
whites and it's just dark. And I think as I've got older, I've actually wanted a bit least darkness in my life, to be honest. Yes, Josh, I've got kids. I've got kids. I've got Yeah. I mean, the world is like the world is really. Dark, pretty dark place at the moment, especially now, yeah. In modern, not for me in New Zealand, but, but even for people, probably even for people in my community, it's a pretty miserable place to live, you know, and I. Yeah, yeah. I just don't.
Really want there I mean much least 40K40 Ki just find like what a horrific vision of like a future. I don't want to imagine it, but yeah, but like so 5th edition with it's kind of ridiculousness and and the element of humour and and the bizarre, like the how colourful it was, you know, orks and goblins were like clowns. You know, I, I love that stuff. I really do.
Yeah, me too, mate. My, my heart's firmly set within that era of gaming because, and I think 5th edition, what it sets it apart from 4th edition because 4th edition obviously preset that template of goblin green bases, everything's lush green table tops, very vibrant colours. But I think 5th edition, they just turned that dial up to 11.
You know what I mean? When they when they had the technology that had, they used obviously better computers or better software, desktop publishing software to really amp up the saturation and all the photos, everything looked really Uber pumped and they had so many photos in the books. Like, I was looking, I was looking at John, right? And he's got the, you know, the giant read gloves, you know, not just to me, like giant read gloves are very reminiscent.
He's got a few scratches, actually. I need to repaint him or maybe strip and try it again. But yeah, just giant read gloves are very much of the era. Like who who wears big red gloves? Like, yeah, they're fantastic. Fantastic. I am actually. I'll just just note Paul Sawyer's poor health. It's, it's really terrible news there. And it sounds I understand he's terminally ill and that's that's no good. That's no good. But yeah, his army, his KZ Bulg army was really, really inspiring for me.
And while I never managed to pull off a really workable dwarf army I liked in that era, that army was and is awesome. I know where it is. It's still still out there. It's owned by a guy in the States. You should get him on the podcast. Actually, you should get him to show it. It's the black and Yellow army, if you can imagine it. Right. It's really cool, really cool. And again, that, that those colours, so all his war machines are black and yellow. His troll slayers are all half
black, like sort of all paint. And it's cold. It was in a white dwarf, which is where I saw it, but I found the guy who who owns it now. And yeah, like those, those bright colours just yeah, very much of the era, really inspiring. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm looking at my editor at the back in the background here in iMovie here and I can just see green, green, green, green, green, green, green, green. But that, that it's that color
that makes me feel happy. I think every time I pick up something from the 90s and you flip through the pages, White Dwarf could be your 5th edition battle book, rule book or whatever. Everything about those publications just brought a certain certain sense of warmth and humor, which I think just just lacks in the later editions. And that's why I that's why I just stopped playing. I just got out of GW altogether. It just wasn't something that I was, you know, on SO.
Did I? I stayed in Josh because I worked for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But I just had least and least, sort of least and least kind of interest in the game. And, you know, as the army swelled as well, just swelled and swelled and swelled and that, you know, the units got bigger and bigger and bigger and the game got sort of more and more expensive and, and more complex, in some ways least complex than others. And I just found that I can. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, right?
Like, none of us in the weekend denied that That was half of the appeal of the game. Does that make the game any least it was? It is what it is, and it's a powerful thing. I guess we, you know, if there are things we associate with good times in our lives, we'll, you know, be drawn to them. And for me, getting into getting my first job at McDonald's when I was 17 to buy Warhammer, specifically to buy Warhammer, it's a great, great wage.
Like everyone, all the other kids were like 4 bucks an hour. I was on 850 at McDonald's and all the money went on Warhammer. And that's just a really good time in my life. I had no real responsibilities. I had a great parents, great home, biked everywhere. You know, I just, so that was kind of my freedom. I probably got a car a little bit after that, a really old Toyota, not a Honda, Honda
Civic, but yeah. And I just and I could afford a a Warhammer army for the first time and it was just awesome. It was just awesome. On that note, this is my this isn't the first ever GW miniature I bought in from in 89. It was in a pack of three, Josh in it. Hang on. How do I put these stupid things together? I never liked them. Leave. I bought it and then I was like, I don't even like this. And it's one of those plug in empire, plug in empire minutes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you could, you know, you could buy them with halberds or so I bought a pack of three and it's 20 bucks in 1989. And I was 9 and it took me like 4 or five months to save up that much money. And I, I, I quickly realized that I'm not going to be able to afford to play Warhammer now in a mate of mine of course had he had rich parents, both lawyers and he at the age of like 92, I think he was getting the pre the Empire army, which had been all
done for the release of 4th. And. It featured in a It featured in at least one Metal report. It was the first better of whatever read was the New Empire Miniatures played under Third Edition rules against wood elves in dwarves. It's an awesome battle report. Yeah, so he had all that stuff by the time we were 12, and I was so jealous. Anyway, five years later, I get my own job, I get my wood elves, I get my Britannians. And. And this is the first minute try
you've ever painted. Oh, right. So there's a Britannian knight you're holding up there? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Britannian Knight, Yeah, that you bought in a box of three I think. Yeah, I think that's about right. So that's I've still got that it took me a spray painted it black and trying to get these bright colours using those thin paints of the era took me about a week I think with a size 0 brush as well to. To paint job in that though Joe, yeah, it's. Not too big. Yeah.
Well, it took me a while. So, yeah, that that was my entry. So wood elves and then obviously in the law, wood elves and Britannia are kind of fractious, but they, they ally with each other and, and over time, that became more explicit. And the Lady of the Lake became an elf or Ariel or or something like that. So I got Brutonians next and then I then I moved to our capital city, Wellington for, for university and they had AGW
store. So I was just in there all the time and spending all my spare money there. And it was, I mean, that was a wonderful era for shops as well. I think those guys were Australians. They came over to get it, get it going and you know, you had the store, it was full. I had those huge sort of middle ranges they had what were they doing?
Gorka Moka sucked and and we all know, you know that the story of like them just creating a game in like a few months rather than release War master Mordheim came out, then war master as well. And and the store was just great. You know, big a big space, five staff, all the fantastic handmade terrain they used to have. Gaming was just like encouraged. They had 6 by 4 tables, lots of giveaways and you know, they had the Christmas discounts and
raffles. And there was the era where you you built an army and you got the pieces of the fortress. I did you have that in Australia? No, I don't think so. I've got one of those cards around. So if you got like a, you collected 2 heroes, you got like the gates. And if you collected like 2 core units, you have to get them stamped in this little booklet. You got the two towers. And then if you collected 2 war machines, you've got another two towers and then a monster, you got 2 walls.
And so you built an army and you got a fortress at the end of it. Wow, OK. Yeah, it was. Just amazing. It's. Cool. Yeah, it was really cool. It was really cool. I, I went to the official store opening. I got there at like 5:00 in the morning, so I was number one through the doors and the manager like rugby passed me right down the store.
I steag it on. Luckily I caught it but he just fired it down the sea must have played played rugby league himself and, and I managed to catch that and that was my free gift for being the 1st in the door and it was a really cool time. It was a cool time. So, so the nostalgia for me is, is all associated with this, this awesome key free time in my life when I was playing great games and, and having fun. And, and obviously my life as a parent working and stuff is quite different.
And it's a real buzz to, to go back there in a way. Yeah, to, to, to cosplay as a teenager again or something like that. Cosplay's probably not the right word. Laugh maybe. Yeah. Laugh. Yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful time, mate. I think everyone has that kind of shared experience.
If they either had their own gangs workshop in their local city or area, if they weren't that lucky like me, they had friends around or clubs to go to that they could share all their hobby geekiness with and get inspired to start the new new project. So that's good mate. So also, was Warhammer the only game you played or did you sort of dabble with other systems later on? GW just talk about. Yeah, just talk about. Yeah, just do it, GW. Yeah.
Yeah, so I, so I made me think I, I played a lot of Mordheim heap heaps and more time. We had a we had a fantastic couple of more time tables built by a really clever store staff. I mean like beautiful, not like kind of cardboard tube towels and stuff. Beautiful, beautiful tables. Those guys were really skilled. So I played lots of more time. I got into a bit of a wallmaster at the time.
I wish I'd played it more. I wish I and then I more recently I bought a bunch of war war master armies and then sort of sold them. I just sort of assessed I, I wouldn't really wouldn't really play it. So yeah, so War Master I really liked more time in, in Warhammer and that was it really. I, I never played Warhammer Quest. I never had it. I had hero Quest and actually of the two, I think Hero quest is better. I personally think Warhammer
Quest is not quite a role play. It's not a great role-playing game, and it's not quite what I want in AI. Don't know, dungeon exploring, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I've had a couple of copies since and I've sold them both. I didn't play Man of War. I think Man of War was awesome. Oh, I forgot to say it was a huge Man of War demonstration game at this tournament. It was like, yes, huge like. That's right. It was massive mate. Huge, huge, huge. And it was just that was awesome.
I like in breaks. I was in the weekend, I was looking at it and that was that was really cool. So yeah, so those were my main games. I mean, Warhammer really was was it for me. I was never really into 40 KII just just didn't really grab me. That's fair enough. The pretty much the basic problem for me in 40K is as all those weapons shooting about halfway across the table, like all those weapons have got like
100m range. I just couldn't, I don't know, for like a, you know, a high sort of a high tick kind of war game. It just didn't really worked for me, even even though I think some of the stuff's cool and and, and yeah, I mean, I like, I like the metal guards, Imperial Guard of the era, yeah, like that those those various regiments that the Perry's all made. And yeah, that's, that's cool stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't complain if I had like a gun. I mean from that era.
I'm sure you wouldn't now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it was never really my my jam. And I, I did play 40K and I worked for the the shop, I worked for the shops worked for GW, but yeah, it wasn't my, my kind of thing. I also never really liked Lord of the Rings. I yeah, I don't like the system, didn't like it, still don't. And I don't really like the way I don't like the aesthetics from the movies. I. Yes, me too.
I gotta admit I don't. I just don't, I just don't like if I wanted Lord of the Rings stuff, I'd be looking at Colin Patton's fantastic Ragnarok Arrange that he's doing now, which is much more sort of toned down, down to earth kind of Dark Ages influence stuff. And I reckon that's amazing. In fact, he did a bunch of 12 dwarfs and a wizard and a Hobbit halfling. You can buy them through you can buy all this stuff through gripping beast and that is just
now that's really cool. That's that that range, although that little I have. To go and check them out this. Is amazing. Yeah, do do Ragnarok Miniatures. Ragnarok Miniatures. Now, were these the talented people who released a whole heap of Vikings at some point as well? They looked incredible. Yeah, and he's got some trolls coming out, a few different groups of trolls all in one Kickstarter.
And a group of them are sort of the armoured kind of dark, you like Middle East, kind of Middle East, sort of almost half trolls I think that are described in the they had like the Black Gates or whatever. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, so, so Lord of the Rings was never my cup of tea, despite living in Lord of the Rings land. Yeah, yeah, and being an extra and Lord of the Rings. Oh, right, still. Yeah, still didn't think it was that cool, but yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting.
It was. It was big though for Games Workshop. I can't deny when I was working with them in like 2002, thousand and one, 2002, the stores were just full of kids. Everyone wanted Lord of the Rings and there was that. I don't know whether it was international, but Australasian, that magazine. Do you have the one which? I remember. Yeah, Yep. And that was brilliant. I mean, as a, like, marketing tool. Yeah. A miniature each week or each month, right? Yeah, Yeah, That's right.
So they're going to have people in the door. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they did it the right way. Yeah. They couldn't sell it quick enough or they didn't have enough stuff to sell quick enough, basically.
So also mate, you're talking before about hosting the event next year and you're already making plans and making your lists and obviously there's a Facebook group that people can visit in order to interact with yourself and other people to find out more about it. Have you already pre set a date or something for next year or? Yeah, no, we're just waiting on the club. So Wellington Moorlords is the
the club in our capital. So there's a couple of clubs in the capital city and there's two clubs and each one does its own, each one does its own event. They're both great. So one in one in April, but then Wellington Moorlords says the is sort of August, September. So we're just, we're just waiting on the next date. When we've got that date, we'll, I guess I will ask around for some tentative commitments because they don't, I mean, they don't want to give a waste over
the weekend. They had every inch of space, like I said, 170 people playing and they don't want to sort of waste, waste time with with people that say I'll run an event and then it doesn't happen. Yeah, So I'll ask around and if I can get a sense that, you know, we can get 66810 people coming, then then we'll do it again. And and yeah, I've for next year. Oh. Empire Well, yeah, so I I don't know whether I mentioned that all of my staff from my teenage years in the end sort of got
trashed. I just just didn't look after it. I didn't really care. Periods of not playing I just didn't have, probably didn't have cases. I don't think back then if I had money I wasn't going to spend it on cases as opposed to, you know, so it would have been kept in like boxes and stuff. So I don't have much from that era. I've got a, I've got a big cornate army, so that's, that's pretty cool. But then actually I pretty much
had nothing else. Then over the years I've collected more and I've sold it as I've been broke or wanted to buy the things. So what I've got now is actually all mostly scrounged from Facebook marketplace over the last three or four years. I've got my wood elves thanks to lots of helpful Australians. Great, good to be heaps. Yeah, heaps of people that that maybe depart with, with the wood
elves. And then I've got my empire, and I've probably ended up with about 6000 points, I think, all up. Wow, that's good. That's barring a few key pieces. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm really looking forward to building that, although a bit a bit daunted by the amount of painting because I'm a terrible procrastinator, Josh, and I'm an extremely slow painter, so. Well, you've got heavy LED studios mate, it can help you out no problem, OK? Yeah, probably could send me the
list. Yeah, probably wouldn't have the budget there, but look, thank you. And I did actually. I want to acknowledge a really good mate of mine here who stepped in to try and get to help paint one more unit before the before the tournament. But I was the guy who had some unpainted miniatures. Isn't that shameful? The the TO and I too, and there were a few few well deserved jokes about it. But I think that's important as well.
That's something that Games Workshop eventually got the head around that you don't, you know, you'd encourage people to paint your miniatures, but you don't make that a barrier. I think certainly if you've got tiny little dead system that you want people to play, I would think it would be crazy to say you can't come if you haven't painted all your miniatures or they not have a certain standard or. Yeah. They're not official. They're not official G dub stuff.
I I wouldn't like that at all. So we had some romantic, I'm sure there were semantic miniatures floating around over the weekend. I think that some Minotaur, semantic minotaur and stuff and like, who cares, honestly, as long as they're based in a way that will work and, and things. And I think that's that's one of the many strengths of the
Mordheim community. Like you just have to go online and you see that people are just making it happen with whatever, you know, like, and it would be so stupid to just cling on to that limited range of miniatures which came out in the 90s. I mean, I know it's sort of available by recast and stuff now you can get just about anything. But but Even so, you know, people are making the immort home stuff from everything and it's cool. Like good on them. And Thomas thinks that's
awesome. And yeah, that's that's healthy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That that I think we do the same. It's we have a couple of guys who put in some proxy models from different companies and that's fine. Totally, absolutely, totally. If you I know that Nick, Nick, he runs some, it's like only like ogres that he got from some company in Poland or whatever, that's totally fine. Like I, I really don't, it
really doesn't matter. It's it's we're all enjoying a game that we we love and we get to get together and socialize and play. And if you like another manufacturer's models that's do you think are better than the, the new ones or sorry the the the old present ones or current ones or whatever, that's fine. It's just down to personal taste and. Yeah, I remember a a singer that I really like who was talking about his music being influenced by old rock'n'roll in the 50s and 60s.
And he said, you know, but you can't just, you can't live in the past. And if you do, you kind of you end up you're probably going to end up becoming a parody, a parody of that stuff or a parody of yourself or something. He just said, you know, you do have to move for the times, even if the will that you drink from is of a specific time and influenced by that. And I think I think that's
important. You know, we some of the paint jobs that some of the paint schemes that we saw in the weekend were much more modern, like much lots of sort of softer colours. I didn't see any big red gloves disappointingly over the weekend. But yeah, but that was, that was all good, you know, and they were in there. Actually, now that I think about it, there were quite a few 6th edition plastics and maybe 7th edition plastics creeping in there too, with some of those ranges. But pardon me.
But yeah, it was, I think, I think if you want this to happen, you just have to have a degree of flexibility and welcome, welcome people in as well. Yeah, absolutely. Now we're almost at the at the
stage two. I was going to say and touch on this because I've actually interviewed a few people that are making alternate models based on the aesthetics of 4th and 5th edition era, which is I think it's a great idea and it's a great initiative that people are doing that because there is a certain charm about those models that people want to reflect in the 3D 3D sculpting world now.
And there's there's obviously a growing market for that because they want to get something that's affordable. They can print out mass amounts of it. And we're almost at the stage now in our gaming group where we've got people like Wellington here and Aussie made a mind. He's got a pretty much an all printed army. Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm not surprised. I haven't seen one, but I'm not surprised. Josh, are you familiar with the guy who's doing the chaos tours?
Chaos Tours. Fabbazil. Yeah, I think Broniak. Well, Broniak, I think, I think so. OK, well, I know. I know Marco. Who? Who does? He's from Norway. I interviewed him on the podcast. Fantastic guy, does some beautiful looking Kas dwarf models and that's from Brawniak. And there's Fabizel, another really nice guy. Haven't got him on the podcast yet, but I would soon hope that we can arrange that and he does an another fantastic range of Kas.
Dwarf now, now I'm not sure it's one of the two, but I'm yeah, look, that stuff I just thought was I just thought was really cool. Some of the phenomenal, Yeah, some of them are just amazing. Yesterday I interviewed a man from Celtic Miniatures out over in Canada, Ian. And he does again a range of models, cow stoves, dwarves, undead and Orkin goblins in the same aesthetical field. He loves all the old style Milt models and he's done a very same
similar aesthetic. And we've got lots of other guys that are going to come on the podcast and talk about it because I want that to be an option for people to keep it open there to say, because that barrier of paying essentially what a grand to get into Warhammer. You know, that's what cost me to get my dwarf arm here. It could cost me about a grand to get into it right, to get everything I'm. Just yeah, I'm just trying to
think some. Mass investment, you know, So what we want to, we want to, yeah. Oh, yeah, it would. Yeah. No, it would be. It would be. I mean, I, yeah. I don't think you have all the postage costs. Yeah, when you get the posters costs and everything and you're buying in little pieces, little pieces here and there and that kind of thing, yeah, it all adds up and you're going to look in about a grand to get in. I I think you're about right. It's here.
It would be about the same cost that was back in the day like, and yeah, yeah, it could easily be that much, especially if you want to go all metal, which and I really like metal miniatures. I I mean, I know I'm a bit of a dinosaur, but I just, I really like them. I really like the heft I know. I love like. Attacking anyone with them like putting. Them in a sock and sort. Of fighting my way, way out of like a dangerous situation.
But maybe I could maybe, maybe in an extremist, I could put a unit of flagellants in it, which would be kind of appropriate actually in a sock and and and use them as a weapon. It's a new wooden spoon trophy. That's the wooden spoon trophy getting hit over the head with a sock of flagellants. Yeah, I just like them. I and I find that hand, hand sculpting as well lends itself to some loving being a cold man, which I really think I really like.
In fact, I'm sure I read an interview with Ellie Morrison towards the end of the sort of hand sculpted era at GW and he just said to sculpt a single piece miniature is a wonderful experience. That at the end that at the end, I'm I'm paraphrasing, it was in a white dwarf. It was sort of an interview with him.
Yeah. It's I think Jervis Johnson interviewed him and probably in about 2009 and he said to, you know, to do a single piece minute you're talking about dwarves and one go and step back and look at it. You know, if it if all goes well, you've created something which has a sort of a unified kind of something like grace to it is what he said. You know, like it flows right. It fits together. It's just whereas any multi piece miniature is perhaps he was talking about the technology
of the day. No, I don't really think so. I think it was a general comment, which I think probably still stands. Any multi piece miniature might not have that by the nature of, you know, especially if it's if it's modular and you, you, you, you've made it to have different, you know, to be put together in different kind of ways. And the more you kind of do that and the more clunkier I think they look, to be honest. And people will say, oh, like modern GW miniatures, like the
beast miniatures you've made. And that's what the hell. I would tend to disagree. I think a single piece metal miniature is always going to have something over over there just by virtue of it all flowing and working together in one thing. My jockey says some hideous ones out there isn't there too. I should probably acknowledge that. I don't know, but yeah, I love this guy's, this guy. 'S certainly not this guy's. Certainly not heavier. Oh yes, troll.
Look at that troll Slayer. So, Joe, Joe Joe's holding up a lovely giant Slayer with his ears. Yeah. Twin axes, twin twin axes up there. So wonderful. She on a he's actually on a hick's base, this one Hick's base. Nice one. He's for Mordheim and I decided, oh very good, be a bit different and use hex spaces. Yeah, I'm not impartial to a hex base. I like hex spaces. Yeah, and I I something about them. I mean, they sort of, they come from a time before me really, but. Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. I just felt, yeah, I just felt like they might be Yeah, what I was looking for. So yeah. So sometime next August, September, we'll we'll hopefully have another event, Josh and. Your mate. Everyone's, everyone, anyone is welcome. We just want people to come along. We've we've now got armies to lend. Yeah. So that's a good thing, right? We, those of us that are painting new armies have now got armies from this year to lend.
And, and we hope that all kind of things will grow in that fashion as well. So yeah. Yeah. No, it's things are, it's good. It's a good, really good thing to do. Yeah, and hopefully, yeah, hopefully things sort of grow from here. And I guess also, Josh, it doesn't matter if they don't. It's fine. You know, I'm sure if they don't, there's campaigning and big battles and stuff we can do even just the six of us, which
will. Yeah. Like so the one of the guys who came, he's he's really, really, really term. If you're listening to this, this is you. Obviously, he's really, really into that Revenge of the Domelord scenario from the original. Oh yeah, it's just, it's just great. Gripped by it and that's a that's a fantastic scenario. I know Tim. He's got, I know Tim. Yeah, he's he was part of our Call of the Crown challenge. He did a beautiful undead army.
Yeah, well, that's what he that's what he had at the tournament, right. So, so he's got all the undead for that. He's got almost all the Empire and. Oh, right. You know, if we couldn't do a tournament next year, like for whatever reason, Tim should just, we should just do that and just play it. Yeah, Beautiful demo game. And so there's all sorts of stuff we can do, Josh, that doesn't have to, you know, doesn't have to involve tournaments and things. And I just.
That's right. Kind of the world's out oyster, really. I'd love to see that. That'd be awesome that Tim's undeaded, just absolutely gorgeous. So to see his Empire stuff would be equally as nice. So that'd be great to see if you guys can pull that off. He's a good player. He brought a really sharp. He brought a really sharp list and won most of his games. And yeah, no, I if.
I ever get the chance I'll come down there so you can absolutely trounce me. Then I suppose with all these competitive lists, I'll bring a real soft fluffy one mate for you to do. What you like, do what you like. It's funny, though. Did I mention like? So I took the gym, a black gym of Nah, and everyone was like, oh, you shit, you know, yeah, it's lame. Like, that's really lame. I think actually items like that are kind of important. We call this hero Hammer, right?
As if heroes completely dominate the game, can't dominate the you can't. Who's going to bring like honestly, who's going to bring an import dragon with a hero on it when there's like a 90 point champion flying around like on a Warhawk with a black gem of Nah, I wouldn't, I don't think anyone else would either. And I just I think people maybe forget that that there's a lot of counters to yeah, that's true. Powerful heroes, lots of
counters to powerful heroes. I mean, even the fact that you've only got five turns to use them, that means that yeah, you're probably going to spend three turns getting to the enemy. I don't know, maybe an issue fly, maybe an issue fly. Unless you've got a chaos Lord on like a on a dragon, for instance, then you're across the table and you're into it. Maybe in turn 1, but even then, I mean, yeah. So my point is I I bought this black team of Nah and I didn't even use it.
Because yeah, no, you said that before. Yeah, it's funny that. Yeah, no, no one even no one had anything that was sort of narrable or I had they had their tough things in units for the champion with the black team of Nah. So that was kind of the the stand off in some cases. Yeah. And I think, I think, I think all that stuff, that sort of perception that the game is kind of like broken or not fun or dominated by like 1000 point characters. I don't see it. Yeah, I don't see it at all.
I just. Right, Yeah, well, Joe, it's been fascinating to talk to you mate. I, I really appreciate your time coming on today. We had a really long chat and it was really interesting. I, I'm really happy to have met you now and, and got to speak to you. But mate, look, I'm very interested to see what happens in the future and how that sort
all pans out for you next year. And, but in between that to see your games being played and photos being posted up on Facebook. But thanks again for your time again, Jake. Appreciate them. Oh, thanks heaps, Josh.